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Support for independence up to 40% in past months

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Published Date: 17 December 2007
By HAMISH MACDONELL
SUPPORT for Scottish independence has risen to 40 per cent, according to the findings of a new poll.
The latest snapshot, which is based on the exact referendum question Alex Salmond, the First Minister, wishes to put to the Scottish people in 2010, revealed a 5 per cent surge in support for independence over the past three months.

Nicola Sturgeon, the Deputy First Minister, said the poll reflected the "impressive ratings" of the Scottish National Party in government.

The poll, conducted by TNS System Three, asked whether Mr Salmond's administration should "negotiate a settlement with the Government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an independent state".

The suggestion was backed by 40 per cent of those questioned in the poll, which was carried out in late November and early December.

It showed that 44 per cent said they did not want Scotland to pull out of the UK – 6 per cent down from August.



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  • Last Updated: 16 December 2007 9:29 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish independence
 
1

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17/12/2007 00:10:15
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17/12/2007 00:12:37
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beckypumps1,

fife 17/12/2007 00:19:09
2 I agree with (They should simply ask if we want independence yes or no) not so sure about the Westminster bit.
4

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 17/12/2007 00:40:04
#2 Ayrshire Scot,

If you have no life maybe you should move out of Lala land. Scots are not going to return power to Westminster. Over 70% of people asked want more powers for the Scottish Parliament. I'm afraid that our memories of the Tories are still too fresh in our minds, especially since Labour may well lose the next election to Cameron. So I wouldn't hold your breath on the returning power to Westminster idea. You might turn blue.
5

subrosa,

17/12/2007 00:41:18
#1 But ye've a braw voice :)
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17/12/2007 00:44:39
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17/12/2007 01:03:45
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subrosa,

17/12/2007 01:05:11
#7 I don't think this poll was instigated by a political party so there your gripe is with the undemocratic behaviour of TNS System Three. I'm sure you'll put them to rights though.
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17/12/2007 01:11:49
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Spotter,

17/12/2007 01:21:38
AM2 someone just challenged u on herlad site to see what u would not want devolved to Scotland -- i liked the line of question:-)

answer here 2 please AM2
11

The Strategist,

17/12/2007 01:23:01
40% eh. Suggests that at long last people are slowly but surely waking up to the fact that Gordon Brown's miracle economy is no more than an illusion. The fall in the value of houses will seal his fate and that of Union.
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17/12/2007 01:23:25
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Very Rev Ian Paisley,

17/12/2007 01:26:55
The election of the Tories for another 16 years will get independence for us. This is what the 60% who did not indicate independence as their preference will have to look at.

Without the Scottish seats, Labour are sunk UK wide and all we have left with is the bullingdon boys and the continuation of the City state of London.

Bring it on - lovin it

14

An Australian of Scottish Ancestry,

17/12/2007 01:28:33
Oh well AM2, I guess this puts a lot of your vagary to rest, doesn't it? So much for your whimsical figure of only "28" of Scots supporting independence! This merely proves that the unionist camp have only obsolete and anachronistic statistics to draw upon.

It looks like the serpent is swelling up from the sting of its own venom. Unionists can read the statistics and weap from their own publication!
15

An Australian of Scottish Ancestry,

17/12/2007 01:30:21
"28%", that was meant to read. Oh well, better a typo than a flagrantly erroneous, unionist lie!
16

 Ayrshire Scot™,

17/12/2007 01:31:35
4 Gregor

that is a unionist fakey at (2) - extra space after name. Is a disgruntled lover who took to "stalking" me on here, and after the launch of the new site has been stuck with just one log in (his others are English Voice, Deuronomy, Boudica, Maltese Falcon)

In my own defence, I was young, and was impressionable when I met him. That he was "stalking" me by impersonating my log in on here and the Herald I thought was a bit sad. Now I think it is tragic. Be nice to him.
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17/12/2007 01:42:01
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17/12/2007 01:50:19
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Champion Haggis Slayer of Fife,

Dunfermline 17/12/2007 01:58:08
#7
Its going to happen, no matter what spin you try to put on it. Scotland, a nation in its own right. Cheerio AM2
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17/12/2007 02:07:58
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subrosa,

17/12/2007 02:12:28
#19 and #21 You sad soul. Check with your doctor tomorrow as your present medication isn't working.
22

Guga II,

Rockall 17/12/2007 02:35:34
#7 AM Squared. We are talking about the here and now, not some of these ancient statistics that you dream up. Get a grip.

In any event, it is the older generation that are in the majority when it comes to sticking with the English, and they are slowly dying out. The younger people want independence, and they are out future. So, it is only a matter of time.

Maybe you should take your antiquated notions back to Northern Ireland, as you still think the way a certain section of them do. Either that or move into the real world.
23

Royster,

17/12/2007 02:46:12
Have a vote. A vote for independence means immediate independence, a vote against independence means a return to direct Westminster rule (or some other place where a single UK parliament could be established).
24

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

17/12/2007 03:13:48
24

What about Spain as the home of the new parliament?

Or is it clearly stupid to have your parliament and decisions made about your country taken in another country?


25

Guga II,

Rockall 17/12/2007 03:16:41
#24 The last gasp of the Unionists.

Obviously a vote for independence means immediate independence, but if you think for one minute we're going to allow the English to steal our share of the assets, including our oil revenues, you're very much mistaken. That's why there will need to be negotiations.
26

Happyhibee1956,

Sothampton 17/12/2007 03:20:56
As a long time nationalist it is worrying to see many fellow nationalist supporting continuation of EU membership.

I only see one master being exchanged for another, but hey thats me.

Does anybody agree with me on this as I have not seen anybody bring this up before?

Genuine question so please reply in the spirit that it is being asked.
27

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17/12/2007 03:23:41
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28

TommyKaye,

UK 17/12/2007 04:49:34
The BBc World Service have a transmission tomorrow called "Can Scotland afford Independence"

This really infuriates me how about Can the BBC survive without taxpayers money.

If Scotland was in Africa,Asia or Latin America the BBC would be pro independence for the small state but the old Colonial Empire service still runs through the BBC viens.

Why dont you try to stand on your own feet BBC see how far you would get
29

Royster,

17/12/2007 05:17:25
#28. At last we agree. #26 It's a bit pathetic to suggest the English (you have conveniently forgotten the Welsh and Northern Irish) will want to 'steal' anything. After all the UK gave back billions of dollars of reserves to China after the handover of Hong Kong. It was under no obligation to do so. A quick referendum on the union would be fine by me. A straight forward 'In or out?'.
30

Royster,

17/12/2007 05:23:30
#26. Regarding the oil price, just the consider the following: 1) Iraq's oil supply is increasing 2) You may get a recession in the US which will in turn hit manufacturing in China 3) In sterling terms, the oil price is not that high due to the weakness of the dollar. Where, in the next 5 years, do you think the oil price is going?
31

Jimmy the Pie,

North Sea 17/12/2007 05:53:05
I noticed in yesterdays Sunday Herald that the Johnstone Press (publishers of this drivel) share price is well down on a year ago. Is this directly related to the latest opinion polls??? Ort is it just the standard of journalism is $hite?? We should be told!
32

Richardinho,

17/12/2007 06:40:46
It's not suprising really. The Trump affair is a case in point; There you have the SNP trying it's utmost to do the best for the Scottish economy, whilst you have the old unionist parties instead wanting to get bogged down in parliamentary navel gazing as to whether or not Alex Salmond was driven to a meeting in a government car!
33

donald,

glasgow 17/12/2007 07:06:07
Up! Up and away!
34

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

17/12/2007 07:08:59
31.

Even if Iraq's oil supply reached pre invasion 1990 levels, the increase would only account for 1.3% of the worlds daily consumption approx.

Given its infrastructure, that not already bombed and replaced, is now outdated and dangerous, this also needs replaced. Total cost - probably in the region of 2 years worth of output.

This is a similar story in Saudi Arabia. Interesting that Scotland produces 20% of Saudi's daily output and for a long time this figure was 30%.

There may be a slow down in China, but guess what, manufacturing moves to Vietnam to make it even cheaper and is replaced with higher end financial services jobs. Already happening - smaller factories are closing and the big ones win. In any event, much of industry is sustained by coal production hence the environmental disaster here. It relies on oil for plastics and transport in the main and not energy to to feed manufacturing to any great level.


Interesting to note that Microsoft and IBM combined have over 10,000 employees here already and that the Chinese govt have just authorised 6 new custodian banks. Lets see, if custodians are moving to India, ie Statestreet performance measurement, and the Chinese can produce maths grads way above anything our curriculum can produce, how long before they move Mellon, JPMorgan, Citibank, Morganstanley etc etc etc etc etc over here - better ask the bankers in NY who make the decisions.

As for the oil price - lets see. No point in selling oil cheap as it only encourages investment in reseacrh for new energy cells. On the flip side, it does stop oil companies looking for new oil. The price will not fall by much if any. War in Iran anyone?
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17/12/2007 07:09:29
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17/12/2007 07:11:34
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Pete40,

Tassy 17/12/2007 07:12:00
#23 GugaII, I think you should leave Rockall, the lack of political discussion may be affecting your brain. You are right, we get on OK with the English, also the Welsh and the Irish of both preferences. It is the London Establishment that gets up our left nostril. There have been Scots for decades that have worked towards independence, so do not give me the OAP's are lacking in enthusiasm. But independence is a funny thing, us old guys would maybe get a bit uptight if you did not include the English, Welsh, and Irish of both persuasions. The oil revenues are interesting but I hope you were not thinking of keeping it to yourself like that mob down south.
38

John S,

17/12/2007 07:16:45
#31 Royster - What Will The Price of Oil Be 5 Years From Now ?
According to a report from the Paris-based International Energy Agency (25 Jul, 2007) rising world demand for oil probably cannot be met and, during the next five years, prices will skyrocket.Crude oil demand growth will jump by 2.1m barrels a day in 2008 the International Energy Agency (FT Dec 14 2007)
It would appear that the market is expecting the price of oil to be $130.00 five years from now (2012).
http://economics.about.com/od/theoilsupply/a/price_of_oil.htm
The FT: Dec 12 2007 - Goldman Sachs has raised his average 2008 West Texas Intermediate price forecast to $95 and to $105 a barrel by 2008 year-end.
39

Boy Wonder,

17/12/2007 07:30:35
"Support for independence up to 40% in past months".

Not surprised. Despite the consistently unsupportive and biased commenting by the editors and reporters of this particulat rag! Which just shows ... the Hootsmon is not fooling anybody!
40

South Ayrshire Sanny Hossack,

17/12/2007 07:52:53
Were all dooomed the sleze ridden fat controller running indi. Scotland, time to move south as ive got a new Government homeland security contract putting an extra 10 metres hight of bricks on Hadrians wall and filling in the holes. Every cloud has a silver lining!
41

Harris tweed and levi's 501,

Edinburgh 17/12/2007 07:53:18
Of course this poll is merely a snapshot of current opinion, but what a particularly welcome snapshot it is.

Despite requiring to cope with a recalcitrant and obstructive Westminster establishment, a universally hostile media , and even a concerted web-site campaign being run with the view of discrediting the Scottish Government, the majority in favour of retaining the union has dropped from 15% to only 4% in a matter of a few months.

Alex Salmond and Co must be doing something right and a few more months of this progress will see the balance being tipped in favour of independence.

That is when we will see the “dirty tricks brigade” really going into overdrive in their attempts to smear, discredit and destroy the SNP, as they did the SSP.

The current “trumped up” spat is merely the tip of the iceberg.

Be warned, they will stop at nothing in order to achieve their objectives.
42

Media 1,

Cape Town 17/12/2007 07:59:34
The poll is proof that Scots are not interested in independence. Nevertheless,a referendum is needed!
43

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 17/12/2007 08:31:55
I rarely quote figures and surveys as they are often inaccurate and next week you'll find one that contradicts it - the only real judge of support for independence will be at the next elections.

after all there are 3 kinds of lies; lies, damned lies and statistics.
44

Unimpressed one,

17/12/2007 08:46:02
Pity they didn't poll people about our continuing membership within the EU at the same time. We cannot have independence whilst the majority of our legislation is handed down from Brussels. We should take the Norwegian option - s special trading position without the crap that comes from being full members.
45

ex katman 2,

no fixed abode 17/12/2007 08:50:26
How many of you were polled or have heard of TNS System Three? You all cry foul when these polls go against you,but hoop and holler like demented prats when they suit your agenda.Wether this poll? is accurate or not,it still says only 40% want independace,me,i will wait for the only dependable poll and you should all know which one that is.
46

Royster,

17/12/2007 09:02:01
#40. John S. Those reports are so out of date dude. A week is a long time in the markets. The talk is now that the Fed won't be able to cut rates because of inflation fears. This could hammer consumer spending in the US which accounts for 2/3rds of the economy. This would flatten manufacturing in China which is driving much of the oil price higher. You may get a cold winter but I think the trend will now be downwards.
47

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/12/2007 09:22:33
This just goes to show that AM2's figure of 22% is utter nonsense. As I said last week, I believe the true figure is 45 - 50% and rising. Two current issues that may push the figure over 50% are, Wendygate and the upcoming resignation of Nicol Stephen. Watch this space.
48

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/12/2007 09:23:44
What are Wendy's views on the £1bn inward investment at Balmedie? Anyone heard anything from her? Does she care?
49

World View,

17/12/2007 09:27:08
AM2

You are a joke. An out and out joke.

You were moaning the other day about linking to empirical evidence to back up our arguments etc etc.

But whenever empirical evidence comes your way that defies your spurious arguments, you cannot accept it and go iunto hyper-denial mode.

Clearly, many people who express a preference for more powers for devolution are gradualists who see it as a necessary step towards full independence. This fact is lost on you simply because you don't want it to be true.

The poll also shows quite categorically that less than half the people in Scotland wish to remain in the union.

Less. Than. Half.

These are encouraging figures.

50

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/12/2007 09:27:54
I don't understand why Unionist politicians think it is smart to insult such a large section of the voting public. David Cameron's "the stain of separatism...". Nicol Stephen telling us that we have no right to even discuss a referendum (neverendum in his words - pillock!) let alone actually vote in one. What are they so afraid of? Could it be that they know they would lose?
51

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/12/2007 09:33:08
#7 AM2 Only you could say that holding a referendum would be undemocratic.
52

Queen D,

Glasgow 17/12/2007 09:38:54
Did anyone see the front page headline in the Sundaay Times yesterday?
Not good news for the Scottish branch of the Labour party.
Did any Scottish newspaper carry the story/
No!
I am going to send that article and any others I find in English newspapers to BBC Scotland c/o Glen Campbell et al,in the hope that it brings them up to speed on devlopments and I would urge you all to do the same.The poor dears obviously need help!
53

Rob7,

England 17/12/2007 09:42:58
This is a great Christmas present for England. Lets hope that by next Christmas it will be 90%
54

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

17/12/2007 09:49:02
What this poll shows is that the SNP still have a lot of work to do to convince people to back independence. Even with a popular SNP executive and an extremely unpopular Labour government they still cannot get the level of support to come close to winning a referendum.
55

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 17/12/2007 09:55:13
#46, Rules but not rulers

Westminster have only ever grudgingly conceded powers to Scotland and only when the SNP looked strong. George Robertson confirmed this was the case when he said devolution would kill the SNP stone dead. It didn't. Wendy Alexander, who campaigned on no more powers for the parliament, now wants more powers to spike the SNP's guns. It won't. Gordon Brown has already indicated that he is not keen to see more powers devolved but prefers a 'tidying up' of existing rules, and this before the unionists commission has even met. Although Brown may not be in power when it reports.

The problem with a federal option is that we are back to the issue of what powers are retained; what powers should the Scottish electorate surrender to the larger electorate of England. Federalism means accepting we are a minority on certain issues (trident and immigration, membership of the EU, for example) and prevents us from having our way if the English majority doesn't agree; Independence, on the other hand, allows the Scottish electorate to express its clear will and to act upon that.

I don't see anyone rushing to the support of the federalist argument in England, where the debate would need to be won. In the meantime, why should Scotland wait? There is a growing anti-European, anti-Scottish, anti-immigrant strain to English nationalism at the moment. Some forums, such as the Telegraph, seem to be getting taken over by UKIP and BNP members, if the tone of their language is anything to go by. We're better out of it.
56

Seaforth,

17/12/2007 10:02:22
I'll spell this out. You are a complete joke and nobody takes anything you say with the slightest bit of seriousness. 1 + 1 = 6182.
57

Seaforth,

17/12/2007 10:06:27
One thing is sure - we don't want Douglas Alexander within 500 miles of the organising committee!
58

Seaforth,

17/12/2007 10:07:29
Some people are so far beyond help there is no point. Joke.
59

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 17/12/2007 10:07:42
#64, AM2

You know I do.
60

Black & White Triumph,

Green road park soon.... 17/12/2007 10:10:06
What do we want ... Independence!
when do we want it... NOW!

Why wait, what to wait for, we are a country, countries should run themselves how best they see fit, if they don't they get sanctions or invaded by the US.

So lets get on with it.
61

Alan B,

17/12/2007 10:10:47
#46 Rulesbutnotrulers "Any referendum must include the federal option if it is to reflect more of the options,and not be just the narrow either/or choice offered by the SNP which appears to be scared of losing."

I find to see little sense in what u are saying. Firstly it is the unionist parties that do not want a referendum (none of them) so why accuse the SNP of being afraid of losing. They also appearred willing to discuss a multi option referendum. But when the called the lib dems bluff on this it was the lib dems that backed down.

Also u say there should be a federal option in any referendum. What exactly would that be. In some ways we have a sort of federal arrangement because of devolution. To make the uk truely federal would mean english regions or england would need its own parliament. That really is up to england. The options scotland have, is more to do with the amount of powers the scottish parliament have. At the moment it seems to come down to having more powers or independence.

"I'm still waiting for someone to say what is wrong with the Union that cannot be fixed within the Union by wise people of good will?"
Even if that is true, it has been a long wait. How much longer are we to wait until these wise people come into being. Another 300yrs? Are we really going to see the north south divide challenged with westminster parliament moving to say manchester. Are england really going to decentralise through regional parliaments. Also what is the point of the union? Based on powers i would like to see at the scottish parliament and those at an eu level i see very little worthwhile for a uk parliament to do. the only reason would be if u wanted if for some type of symbolism.

62

Proud2Be,

Scotland 17/12/2007 10:12:36
What annoys me about all of this is that we all seem to be forgetting a couple of rather irksome pints:

1. The union came about because England ASKED the Scottish King to assume their throne as their King was unable to fulfill his husbandly duties and so dies without an heir.

2. That being the case why is Scotland having to ASK England for independence? We should be TELLING them that its time they stood on their own two feet and cheerio!!

Independence for England!!!
63

Black & White Triumph,

Green Road Park..... soon 17/12/2007 10:12:42
AM 2 I would say you were a very small minority as am I and anyone else on here so i guess that makes you right...... HELP!!!!
64

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

17/12/2007 10:14:53
At the end of the day, even if more powers attracted more interest in the initial referendum, where would the next referendum take us and what would the conclusion of that be?

Not to dissimilar to the results above that negate the more powers question. Independence is coming, its just a matter of time. It can't fail unless Scotland dramatically increases its wealth in line with what it should be. That's unlikely given we subcontract our economy and deservedly suffer because of that.
65

Feenon,

Edinburgh 17/12/2007 10:24:46
OK - hands up everyone who was polled?

Hands up everyone that KNOWS their vote was counted in the Scottish Elections?

No takers? What a surprise...

We still do not know for certain what the electorate wanted in the last botched election. When will Wendy's Wee Brother be held to account for that?

Come to that why is Wendy still in her job?
66

An English Voice™,

17/12/2007 10:25:50
Wasn't it 44% in favour in 2006?

You'd think after all the publicity the SNP have had, all the speeches they've made and all the highly dubious claims they've made (eg. Swinney: "Scotland has a £160bn GDP now" when it was £85bn in 2005....really, Mr 'Finance' Secretary?!), they've withheld their annual accounts for 'recalculation', the number of SNP whinges and whines about the big bad union is now larger than the largest number...

...and still they can't poll a higher % than a year ago!
67

An English Voice™,

17/12/2007 10:41:20
54. SNP Switzerland:

But it is STILL higher than the pro-independence vote. Always has been.

Even after everything going in the SNP's favour, they STILL can't get a majority of the poll in their favour!
68

pwd,

Borders 17/12/2007 10:44:04
*62 Gregor Addison
''There is a growing anti-European, anti-Scottish, anti-immigrant strain to English nationalism at the moment. Some forums, such as the Telegraph, seem to be getting taken over by UKIP and BNP members, if the tone of their language is anything to go by. We're better out of it.''

Unfortunately a disappointingly large minority of Scots need no lessons in xenophobia or bigotry, from the English or anybody else. The worst posts in the Telegraph are disgraceful and come from the same type of gutter as many of the shameful anti English posts which appear here day in and day out. They too are based on a junk version of history, wilful ignorance and frequently a noticeable streak of nastiness. Where would a nation based on that go I wonder?
69

David MacVicar,

web 17/12/2007 10:53:10
It is ironic that AM2 is pushing the more powers option when as a Brit Nat he represents an extreme that believes we should not have had devolution but be all one big happy British entity with the home nations deprecated.

The real independence debate has hardly begun yet support is elevated. I believe much will depend on the more powers debate. It seems reasonable that many of the More Powers group would like substantial autonomy for Scotland without full independence.

The unionists attribute adding some more icing onto existing devolution as some great leap. They cannot agree how far they are willing to go and neither will they name the new key constitutional powers to be handed over. Nor will they yet state where they draw the line though Defense and Foreign policy is a no brainer.

The Scottish public will look on while the Unionists carefully avoid any detailed policy exept avoiding any discussion of independence whatsover. This makes AM2s assertion that it is the SNP who are acting undeomcratically absolutely hilarious.

Another problem for the unionists is tht they have maintained that support for independence until recently was only about 25%. Must be a bit of a shock to see such a jump. The reality is more worrying for the unionists since what we are really seeing is a trend towards support for outright independence. We can quibble about the exact figures, but there is no serious case that a growing number see independence as the best way forward. This makes the unionists total exclusion of the entire subject in the hope that it may go away derisory.
70

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 17/12/2007 10:54:24
pwd,

I agree with you. I support independence but I do so because I believe decision-making on issues like Trident, immigration, foreign policy, and so on, should be done in Scotland. I don't believe the rubbish I read about the 'Britonic gene pool' and that Scots are only Scots if they share in that gene pool, which is some of the nonsense posted on the links I included, and some of that is coming from British Nationalists. Where will the UK go based on that? The politics of aspiration should not be shored up by racist drivel.
71

Carlo,

Fort William 17/12/2007 10:54:41
See the usual unionist windbags are first off the mark this morning.....oh dear oh dear....just been looking at some of their ridiculous opinion based posts.....

Seems like some of them are for another "filleting and frying" today.

I'm sure most of the usual posters watched them being demolished and running away with their tails between their legs on the Sunday Herald and Scotland on Sunday.......LOL LOL

Roll on the next general election....It's Time.
72

Offshore,,

North Sea 17/12/2007 10:54:54
60 AM2

You are obviously ignoring the major flaw in your argument and that is no two federalists can agree on which powers they want transferred and which ones they dont.
For example supposing you have somebody who wants more powers for the Scottish parliament to include defence policy but not immigration would he vote for the federalist option if he knew the more powers option gave the Scottish parliament the exact opposite to what he desired? or do you expect the voters to vote for the more powers option not knowing in advance what those powers will or wont be?
Personnally I believe the more powers option is just a smoke screen to deflect voters away from the Independence option simply because very very few would go back to the pre devolution setup.
73

Jambo Number 1,

17/12/2007 10:55:36
Aye # 77

We can't barley move wi oot fawin oor wi all the anti Englishness on this story, agh, hing on, WHERE/WHAT are yi on aboot?
74

Seaforth,

17/12/2007 11:18:19
#78 David MacVicar, just remember that some people really are that crassly stupid!

So, it turns out that giving powers to Scotland works so well that even the Unionist parties can't deny arguing against further power transfer...and when that happens...can anyone see a logical progression emerging?
75

An English Voice™,

17/12/2007 11:18:21
80. What websites have YOU been looking at? It's certainly not any in this reality!
76

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17/12/2007 11:20:16
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David MacVicar,

web 17/12/2007 11:21:09
"I'm still waiting for someone to say what is wrong with the Union that cannot be fixed within the Union by wise people of good will?"

That is an excellent question and one that should have been addressed decades ago but never was. If everyone had pulled together and put all the issues into the open, debated them fully, took measures and worked on the areas of disagreement then this could have happened, I suppose. It would have been a union of open debate and susbtance instead it focused on obfuscation (by the Government)and self interest (on both sides).

Devolution meant this question could no longer be answered as we no longer have a single union entity to 'fix' anything. Unless its in the sense of 'to fix as in to rig' ;)

As it stands its a case of the needs of the many (The South) which overrule the needs of the few (The North).
It is democratic I suppose but it means that what is unbalanced remains unbalanced. Devolution was supposed to repair the damage but did not address the main problems. That leaves independence or major constitutional change as the only options.

Or do you think the Browns, Camerons, and Alexanders leading the unionist debate constitute "wise people of good will"?
78

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17/12/2007 11:25:37
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79

Ayrshire.Scot™,

17/12/2007 11:30:59
We’re well on our way to independence then, 40% if we ask the right question. For all those who say that it’s only if we ask the right question and exclude other more sensible options such as extra powers, you are English collaborators.
80

David MacVicar,

web 17/12/2007 11:34:21
83 Seaforth.

Some are indeed. I think the balance of Scotlands future is really in the hands of core Labour supporters. The autovote that old Labour could rely on even if a performing monkey was standing.

I think there are several signs that this vote is splitting as Nu Labour fail to meet their expectations.
In the past the rise of the Tories in the south kept the Labour vote strong. With Nu Labour not changing direction and having little difference than the Tories anyway the Scottish electorate will not all jump to Labour as before imo. Some will but not all especially the younger generation.

The referendum will happen and it wont be split by a vote for who sits in the UK parliament and it wont be with any 60% clause.
81

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

17/12/2007 11:34:51
#86 One way it may happen is if a third option on a referendum ballot is explored futher - I am of course talking about Devolution Max. That is an area where common ground can be found between unionists, federalists and gradualist nationalists.
82

.Ayrshire.Scot.™,

17/12/2007 11:37:55
We’re well on our way to independence then, 40% if we ask the right question. For all those who say that it’s only if we ask the right question and exclude other more sensible options such as extra powers, you are English collaborators.
83

Carlo,

Fort William 17/12/2007 11:45:36
#84 & #87

The truth hurts and grates....doesn't it....

The floor has been wiped by these entities many many times......do you remember all the tripe that was posted by the same types (if not persons) prior to the SNP winning the election.......LOL, LOL, LOL.....

Unionist windbags do not an argument make....!!!

Roll on the general election....40%!!!... keep up the denial.....you ridiculous party numpties.

It's Time......!!!!
84

The Green Goblin,

17/12/2007 11:52:28
We’re well on our way to independence then, 40% if we ask the right question. To all those who say that it’s only if we ask the right question and exclude other more sensible options such as extra powers: you’re obviously not SNP nuts!
85

David MacVicar,

web 17/12/2007 11:57:15
89 The Federalist.

Indeed everyone polled who REALLY supports Devloution MAX is answering the poll based on THEIR IDEA of what Devolution MAX is.

The Unionist parties are really pushing Status Quo + cosmetic change - any talk about independence. It adds up to Devolution MIN. I seriously doubt its what people will want.

Therefore when the people preferring their own idea of what Devolution MAX is realise the choice is really between Independence, Devolution MIN or Status Quo then the results will be different. How they vote will depend on how close it meets their ideal.

My guess is that enough people will be disappointed by what the unionists will propose to push them to go for independence as it is the best choice or they wont even vote making it a polarised result anyway.
86

Alex Salmond, C U Next Tuesday,

17/12/2007 12:03:52
"It showed that 44 per cent said they did not want Scotland to pull out of the UK"

Just a wee reminder for all the little nationalists out there - 44 is bigger than 40. Luvoo xxx.
87

Masque,

17/12/2007 12:26:53
Nae surprise in this hoose!!
88

livilion,

livingston 17/12/2007 12:27:58
75 An English Voice™,


As an English voice, why not just be satisfied that Labour is in self destruct mode north and south of the border?

Labour appears to be handing the next general election to David Cameron on a plate.


Going on the premise that oppositions do not win elections, governments lose them.


The Conservative & Unionist party are now the bookies favourite to win the next general election, carried by a wave of disaffected New Labour voters ditching Gordon Brown, from the southern shires of England on up into the Midlands.


((The 'Brown bottoms' may be taking on a new and slightly different significance)).



If political form is anything to go by, Cameron's party might reasonably expect to remain in power for a generation (with or without him at the helm) as the opposition melts down and tries to reinvent itself in the image of his Tory government, waiting to jump in when that government slips on the proverbial banana skin.



Do you share my view that the prospect of David Cameron as UK Prime Minister can only help the cause of Scottish non-dependence on Westminster?
89

The Green Goblin,

17/12/2007 12:39:13
#98 livilion: funny how 18 years of Tory government didn’t advance the cause of Scottish independence the last time. Indeed, all it did was to cement support for Labour in Scotland. When the Tories get back in, people will be well aware that only Labour can get them out again. This has been the political cycle for generations and you Tartan Tories are only benefiting from the surge in support for the real thing in England.
90

Calum Crubag,

17/12/2007 12:42:27
#103

Labour can only get in when the middle-England Tories vote for them. That's why power in the Brit Parli swings from one bunch of right-wingers to another.

We need a break from the arrogant war-mongering conservatism of the union.
91

Calum Crubag,

17/12/2007 12:43:46
... and middle-England votes Labour cause they nicked the Tories' policies. Blair even praised Thatcher. He even praised Enoch Powell for flooksake!!!
92

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

17/12/2007 12:46:37
#98 I would presume nothing about politics in this country. Labour were leading by 11% two months ago - and had similar leads mid-term before the 1992 and 1987 elections. Also the regional/national dimension is being ignored - it would be interesting to see where the Tories are polling best - it certainly is not Scotland where they are still static in the mid-teens.
93

 Ayrshire Scot™,

17/12/2007 12:50:49
100 AM2 your argument might make some sense were it not for the fact that the unionist parties consistently opposed a multi-option referendum.

This poll is one which was independently commissioned and executed, and asks the independence question in fair and neutral way. The polls you quote were mostly commissioned by political parties and the wording of the question varies considerably.

It will be interesting to see Labour, Lib and Tories, having so vociferously opposed a multi-option referendum, and having opposed a free vote independence, reversing themselves as independence is clearly gaining momentum.
94

Shug,

17/12/2007 12:52:41
Surprisingly no one has quoted the most important statistic of all...the overwhelming majority of people in Scotland probably couldn't give a monkey's whether they are indpendent, in a Union, part of Europe etc. Life goes on, the mortgage has to be paid etc. There are far more important things to worry about in life that getting upset about which set of politicians we would liek to run the place. They are all a shower of wasters at the end of the day.
95

James,

Dundee 17/12/2007 12:58:47
#106 Nanu-0Nanu That would be fine with the 'Third Option' as long as there was 'STV' to eliminate the status quo(as the 3rd most popular choice)!!

96

Doh,

17/12/2007 12:58:56
#106

Good point. Also worth remembering that in May the SNP had a 10% lead, this was reported by the Scotsman.

But on election day that lead had disappeared.

You can fool most of the people most of the time because they want to be fooled.

97

Border Scot,

Hawick 17/12/2007 13:01:40
What this poll actually says is that 5% more Scots want independence than was the case a few months ago. It is hardly earth-shattering news, especially as this polling company has consistently shown greater support for independence among Scots than other such companies. As another poster has said, the sample size is important as is the margin or error. And the question asked also assumes that Alex Salmond will actually negotiate a settlement that the Scots will like. What happens if he does not? It also assumes that he will be negotiating withthe government of the United Kingdom. Something which, in reality, he will not be, as the UK will no longer exist.
98

 Ayrshire Scot™,

17/12/2007 13:15:48
114 AM2 so your case hinges upon an undefined, un-agreed potential proposal? You state several polls which show support for an undefined, non-proposal which has not been articulated? How strange. One wonders what exactly people were being asked to endorse? Your thoughts?

Why do the arguments the unionist parties used to resist a multi-option referendum previously now not apply?
99

 Ayrshire Scot™,

17/12/2007 13:19:11
114 AM2

"Salmond offered the proposal of a multi-option referendum including a question for more powers for the parliament, short of independence. This was also rejected by the "democratic" liberals whose leader stated that they would always oppose a referendum if it contained a question offering independence as an option."..... SO much for the multi-option referendum. It appears that a straight choice, as set out in this latest poll showing 47% support for independence (taking out undecideds) is the most relevant as unionists have strongly opposed a multi-option vote?
100

Ken S.,

England 17/12/2007 13:20:30
The 1707 Union of Parliaments died with devolution. Either scrap devolution and return to union or proceed to federation or independence.

In either direction, we could restore good relationships. Almost anything but the present neither-here-nor-there mess, please!
101

Alan B,

17/12/2007 13:20:39
#94 Rulesbutnotrulers. I notice you avoided any of the issues i raised with you. You repeat that the snp is scared of a 3 way referendum but it is the 3 unionist parties that are blocking a referendum not the snp.

You again asserted that most people support the federal option but do not define what that is. As i previously pointed out we have some sort of federal arrangement now after devolution. The only way to have a more federal structure is by english devolution having its own parliament or regional parliaments (probably the better option if the uk is to last). But that is up to england and u again fail to address that issue.

If you mean more powers to the scottish parliament, you say so, rather than hiding behind the word federal that can take many forms. More powers for the sp is a valid aspiration and is something scotland can directly control. The problem with option is what powers. Dev max, just alittle more to try to stop the snp.

Rather than having a 3 way referendum that i think would be confusing. The middle one should probably have more questions. Is it first past the post option. Is it transferable vote. Should we ask to abolish sp also to give more options and would also split vote more and could change the result.

Personally i would like to move to more powers for sp first so that independence could be debated properly. A referendum on fiscal autonomy, control of law and order, energy and its regulation, transport. you could easily have a question on each asking sp or westminster for those powers rahter than the mess we currently have.

You also did not address what powers u would actually like westminster to retain. As i said, looking at the powers i would like to see at the sp and eu parliaments what is the point in westminster. I would like the eu for the freedom of movement of people, single market and would like it to take a greater role in foreign policy (including military peace keeping exercises) and global environmental is
102

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

17/12/2007 13:22:09
#110 Agree about STV being used - but Iwould have thought that would be almost assumed with regards a multi-option referendum. The only other option would be a French style double-ballot with the top two options from a first ballot facing each other in the second ballot.
103

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

17/12/2007 13:23:55
#114 Which is why I'd like a serious discussion of the Devo Max option. At least then (as David McVicar points out) we would know what it actually meant. As he says - what one person may think it is is entirely different from another.
104

CRBAbdn,

Aberdeen 17/12/2007 13:25:03
If you read the article in yesterday's Herald you get an interesting breakdown of the results by age group. Don't have the article to hand, but support for independence amongst under 35s was higher than support for the Union, while pensioners were far more likely to support the Union than independence. This suggests that majority support for the Union is likely to fade over time (as those who remember the War become fewer?), unless people change their mind as they get older. I await the replies telling me that as you get older and wiser you realise that independence is a silly idea...
105

whitegold,

Shire 17/12/2007 13:27:31
Wini, post 101:
- I notice someone else pointed out on another thread just how wrong you are about sample sizes and your understanding of statistics. In other words you are completely IGNORANT on this point and your post in 101 is ridiculous and factually laughable.

As AM2 points out we already know what the margin of error is within confidence limits. And as someone else pointed out on another thread the total population size doesn't enter into it. Simply that it is a random sample and the sample size.

But you keep on spouting nonsense - thinking you know something about the subject, when you evidently do not.

I suggest you read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margin_of_error

Then perhaps you might realise just why your post in 101 is so full of factual error.

106

Alan B,

17/12/2007 13:30:43
#117 Ken S. I cannot see devolution being scraped. From a scottish point of view is it much better than the previous system and opinion polls in scotland show that the people want more powers to reside in that parliament. The biggest problem with pre devolution was that scotland and wales were voting for a different party from england and england being much bigger could push through polices unwanted in the 2 other countries. There was really total lack of democratic accountability. Take education. Ken Baker was going on about a levels being the gold standard. Meanwile the tories introduced completely different education policies in scotland. quite simply people in england were never going to vote on issue round scottish education and scotland rejected the party that imposed policies it was not applying to its own constituents.

The question now from an english perspective, is surely england have to work out how it want to be governed. So far they have rejected the federal option of regional parliaments/assemblies. england needs to decide if it wants a parliament or wether it is happy with the current arrangements maybe with minor modifications.


107

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

17/12/2007 13:31:28
#122 It seems odd considering that post-election analysis of the support for the SNP was in fact the opposite. Youngert people were less likely to vote SNP then older people.

It just shows that sometimes need to take polls with a large shovel of salt. The only ones that matter are on the real day - if we had believed the polls in May the SNP would have won a lot more seats than they did.

The reality is that no-one can be for sure what the level of support for independence is - only a referendum can truly give us an answer.
108

CRBAbdn,

Aberdeen 17/12/2007 13:35:34
#125

I totally agree, just thought it was interesting (and totally predictable) that the Scotsman didn't add this level of detail.
109

Edinburghs only big team,

17/12/2007 13:37:37
#122 CRBAbdn

" I await the replies telling me that as you get older and wiser you realise that independence is a silly idea..."


Good post. However not everyone grows up.

Check out the posts on this thread for proof.






110

 Ayrshire Scot™,

17/12/2007 13:38:56
121 AM2 certainly

try the BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/programmes/politics_show/6587793.stm
111

Alan B,

17/12/2007 13:41:35
Why not add a question? Do you want an independent scotland a member of the british union (in a similar way independent sovereign countries are members of the eu).
112

The Green Goblin,

17/12/2007 14:06:58
115
Ayrshire Scot™,
17/12/2007 13:15:48
114 AM2 so your case hinges upon an undefined, un-agreed potential proposal? You state several polls which show support for an undefined, non-proposal which has not been articulated? How strange. One wonders what exactly people were being asked to endorse? Your thoughts?

Is it independence you’re referring to? Surely the nature of this is as undefined as any compromise solution, such as some kind of devolution max, as everything would be dependent on the settlement eventually reached with Westminster (which could take months, if not years).
113

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 17/12/2007 14:23:10
-- They should simply ask if we want independence yes or no.

It's not a market. You're not buying sheep, cattle or slave girls. Yes or no.

Worthwhile independence for me means a republican sovereign state. You could offer people the choice of remaining in a destitutional monarchy or is this loading the question?

I suppose most people would vote for sound money unless they were a banker, economist, stock trader or media star. But how would you achieve this, or not?

There could be more pressing tasks than this undefined notion of independence like having a house to live in. The mortgage meltdown in NE England is far worse than the media press release. Do you think the Scots will get also get bailed out? Yes or no.

Our cousins in Norway turned a basket-case economy into a viable state. They were basically fishermen, peasants, miners with a few poets and writers. Do we have this gumption?

Do you need a job? If you had a job, like me, would you like to get paid too as scots will pay their telephone, electricty, garage - I presume they want to get their car back - but often "forget" about the local tradesman.

"The preference for closely held enterprises, such as family farms, modest manufacturing enterprises which emphasized flexibility and ingenuity, and skilled services provided by individuals or small firms with special skills, characterized a healthy design of economic organization of communities, and relations among communities defined the regions of the states and relations among the states. The power of technology must lie with the people, such that that technology can not be taken away from the people by runaway corporate interests. Similarly, the idea of "free trade" was an anathema to the free-spirited American colonist and U.S. citizen of those times. "The laborer is worthy of his hire" was on the tips of the tongues."

This is my Scotland and I'm finding them in New Zealand where, "This is our company what me produce, and what can we do
114

Andrew Ireland,

Blackrock 17/12/2007 14:23:57
AM2 and the Unionists

Now that your "opinion polls don't show enough support for it to be an issue" diversionary tactic is unstuck will you be accepting that a referendum giving the Scottish people a choice is the best way to resolve this?
115

whitegold,

Shire 17/12/2007 14:35:29
Some unionists have always argued that a referendum is needed. Some unionists have argued against any referendum claiming there is no real evidence of desire for independence, so any referendum would just be a waste of time.

This poll demonstrates that really a referendum is needed in the near future. Really, as far as I can see, the only ones now opposing a referendum are those who are contemptuous of democracy, and believe in rule by political elite.
116

,

17/12/2007 14:41:37
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117

FM in Dundee,

17/12/2007 14:49:45
Hi Rulesbutnotrulers

Hows trix?

"I'm still waiting for someone to say what is wrong with the Union that cannot be fixed within the Union by wise people of good will?"

What about the problem of Scotland not having a seat at the UN or not being an equal member of the EU? Also what about the problem of Scotland having no control over whether we have WMDs based in our waters or our armed forces being sent to fight in illegal wars?

It's time for wise people of good will to campaign for Scottish independence and with it full and direct membership of the international community. Then we can foster a closer, modern and more productive partnership of equals amongst the nations of these islands.
118

The Green Goblin,

17/12/2007 14:50:28
#138: there’s nothing to resolve. The result achieved obviously depends on how the question is crafted. The only reason that you Nats oppose any question that makes reference to the alternative to separation of offering greater powers to the parliament is that this doesn’t produce the result you want. You’re so desperate to impose your minority will on the rest of Scotland that you’re deluding yourselves. I would draw a comparison with supporters of a football team who will seek solace in the odd freak result as they desperately try to deny the long term decline which confronts them. I’m not saying that the SNP’s in decline: what I’m saying is that support for the party’s independence policy is.
119

,

17/12/2007 14:59:41
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120

The Green Goblin,

17/12/2007 15:02:56
#140 The Genuine Mario Antoinette: some of us actually enjoy sitting around and discussing politics on online I know that some think this is far worse than surfing the net for hard core porn, but leave us to our sad little pastime: it’s harming no-one and we’re not all in urgent need of medical help. I myself enjoy other online sites which are far from geekish (say no more!)

#144 Ayrshire Scot: don't tell me that even you have finally tired of the politics of independence and that you now want to discuss the real interest of most Scots.
121

Mike,,

North Sea 17/12/2007 15:03:21
143 Goblin

There is no multi option referendum possible until tbe details of what "more powers to the parliament" are thrashed out and agreed upon by EVERYBODY inclined to support this option. As mentioned before we have a Devolution Minimum up to a devolution maximum spectrum with the federalist option and until there is a consenses of exactly what the new parliament powers should or shouldnt be then this option is a non option for anybody.
122

,

17/12/2007 15:03:33
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123

Seaforth,

17/12/2007 15:11:16
Hey, fake Ayrshire Scot - any chance you can accidently set fire to yourself in a freak tea-making accident?
124

Earnst Blofeld,

17/12/2007 15:17:00
#145 The Green Goblin: Ayrshire has just alienated a sizeable body of opinion in west central Scotland (and indeed, further afield). He’s not doing his case any good by straying into the world of football, whatever his affinity with the only footballer in Scotland who claims to have opened the pages of Economist, ie the Spook in Leith.


#146 Ayrshire: £7m is about the cost of a suitable replacement for Venegoor of Hesselink, whose team you have just been extremely rude about. Stick to the politics of delusion and denial, geeky one!
125

,

17/12/2007 15:18:06
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126

,

17/12/2007 15:23:54
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127

Seaforth,

17/12/2007 15:24:02
You are making us all pee pee in our best brown-trimmed Y-fronts with your antics. How very clever of you to use a comma to make it look like someone else. What's the matter? Did the big boys make you look stupid? Unable to respond with your own moniker? Imbecile.
128

Shredder,

17/12/2007 15:30:18
#144 Ayrshire Scot: I happen to be a Celtic supporter and would just like to say to you that I would like to return the compliment and laugh in your face! You are a total sad case if you believe that Scotland is on the road to independence because someone has discovered that it can be presented in this way if people are denied the option of giving extra powers to the parliament. If there’s support for this option, then why deny it? Have you ever heard of the word “democracy”, Ayrshire? Don’t repeat your anti Celtic rhetoric too loudly in any local pub, by the way (assuming that you ever pull yourself away from your computer screen for long enough to sink a pint!)
129

Earnst Blofeld,

17/12/2007 15:35:29
#150 Ayrshire Scot: I was referring to £7m in Scots currency once we finally become independent (and I know that you think it’ll be sure now that you’ve convinced yourself that 40% are in favour). To h*ll with Alex's plan to retain the hated English pound (I know how you think, see!) Just out of interest, how much would V of H cost in Albanian currency?
130

Seaforth,

17/12/2007 15:35:42
152 Shredder - that is a fakie Ayrshire Scot, doubtless perpetrated by the infamous cross-dressing lady-boy of Valetta.
131

,

17/12/2007 15:43:28
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132

Shredder,

17/12/2007 15:50:57
#154 Seaforth: where’s the tell tale punctuation, if he’s a fakie? And why’s he so into sheep, if he’s not Ayrshire? Does he get out about as often as the real thing?
133

BMeister,

17/12/2007 16:03:25
#156 Shredder
It's a space after the ™ and before the comma.
134

Gtj,

Dundee 17/12/2007 16:11:37
As much as I am encourged by this percentage of 40%, I still believe these polls are pie in the sky.

The only way to find out the true level of support for Independence is to give every person in Scotland the chance to answer to question.
135

Seaforth,

17/12/2007 16:15:05
fakie - you are about as inventive as kimba's pant-moustache. Please take your rapier-like wit to the David Koresh School of Comedy Endings.
136

I'm no really here,

not here 17/12/2007 16:21:25
testing
137

I'm no really here,

or there 17/12/2007 16:27:29
My first successful post on the new website at #160
138

An English Voice™,

17/12/2007 16:29:50
In a possibly futile attempt to raise the standard of what is yet another purile and childish slanging match:

The World Bank has just released the following economic figures:

The UK is 5th in the world by 'GDP per capita by consumption' (comparing average living standards).

By simple GDP per capita, the UK is 7th in the world.

By total GDP, the UK is 4th in the world (back ahead of China after it was revealed that the Chinese economy is actually 40% smaller than claimed).

By total GDP (PPP: calculating in the cost of living), the UK is 6th.
139

Shredder,

17/12/2007 16:32:43
#159 Seaforth: the grammar's a cut above that usually associated with Kimba (unless, of course the troll behind Kimba is sophisticated enough deliberately to fake a lack of education when he/she/it composes the infamous Kimba posts).
140

The Riddler 2,

17/12/2007 16:37:31
#162 Evil Voice: talking of puerile, how sad that you can’t even spell the word! I bet your mentor AM2 could (whoever he is!)
141

,

17/12/2007 16:39:22
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142

Shredder,

17/12/2007 16:44:06
#162 The Riddler 2: I have reported the poster at #162, as I suspect that he is the same fakie who has been taking the absolute p*ss out of poor old Ayrshire Scot. Note the ™, whereas the real English Voice has his much imitated “…” At least your unbiased, Maltese: you have a go at unionists and Nats equally (just like the BBC?) Are you an equal opportunities tranny troll?
143

subrosa,

17/12/2007 16:45:35
For all you trolls slightly amending the names of regular posters; do you realise all you're doing is bumping up the income for the Scotsman? Then again perhaps I'm too cynical. Most of knock off at 5pm don't you or perhaps your employers have a late shift.
144

An English Voice™,

17/12/2007 16:47:54
166. Oy! I'm the 'real' English Voice!

I registered this name when the mob hijacked my '...' but it won't let me go back to my original now they've clamped down on multiple usernames per IP address.
145

Lastsocialist,

Paris, Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité, Indépendance 17/12/2007 16:51:56
If Scots vote for 'Greater Devolution' in a referendum then that is fine because if Scotland moves goes that way then it is one step closer to independence. Independence is something that is best achieved gradually, hopefully minimising the chances of messing things up.
146

I'm no really here,

or there 17/12/2007 16:53:26
ha;skj asjhas asjhas
147

Ken S.,

England 17/12/2007 16:57:47
#124 Alan B,

I agree that return to pre-devolution seems a little unrealistic. So, we have to move forward significantly from the present mess.
You say
"So far[England has] rejected the federal option of regional parliaments/assemblies."

However, I certainly do not see that proposal as having constituted a federal option.The north-east rightly rejected a new concept that would have fragmented our nation. We had a union of nations/principality/province. The logical further step would be to convert that into a federation of the same units, not to chop one of those units up into something it never was before. An alternative solution of regionalisation would have to embrace the whole of the former UK. E.g. The area formerly known as Scotland would be two or three of those regions. Not sure that would be a very popular idea!
148

,

17/12/2007 17:06:21
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149

Shredder,

17/12/2007 17:08:03
#168 An English Voice? Sorry, but the use of cut and paste statistics to avoid the question at issue is just such a cliché of the way that the genuine EV posts that I think many of us will have our doubts about your claims. I like to think that the real EV wouldn’t have posted a welter of statistics without at least first trying to put them into some kind of context. Your trolling is sophisticated, I grant you, but it’s fooling no-one!
150

Away in the West,

17/12/2007 17:09:16
#62 Gregor Addison: Westminster has only every grudgingly conceded powers to Scotland.
#135 Green Goblin: Independence or devolution MAX depends on a settlement eventually reached with Westminster (which could take months if not years)
#48 Dave from Barra: Only self seeking, fraudulent, vacuous bampots exist within the Union and always have done since it's inception.
#86 David MacVicar: As it stands its a case of the needs of the many (The South) which overrule the needs of the few (The North).
It is democratic I suppose but it means that what is unbalanced remains unbalanced.

In the light of all these posts, why on earth does any Scot believe that Westminter will let them become independent? Your own liberal politicians will not even allow talk of a referendum that allows an independence option. The will of the Scottish people is one thing but what about the will of the ruling elite in Westminster? Do you have the power to force them?
Scotland is viewed as a region of the UK and not the nation she is so why the belief that the majority at Westminster will allow independence?
151

pwd,

Borders 17/12/2007 17:10:59
79 Gregor Addison

I concur wholeheartedly with your last sentence. Extreme forms of nationalism have no place in any decent society.
152

Alan B,

17/12/2007 17:17:40
#171 Ken S. I agree that for the uk to federalise it will have to be in the form of England having its own parliament. However i do think regional assemblies was a legitimate form of federalisation. However it is for England to decide. And England like yourself does not like that option.

Personally i think and independent england with regional assemblies would be a good idea as it would change the over centralisation of power in the south east but again that is really for england to decide.

I do think if the uk is to stay together that an english parliament will probably be part of westminster with mps being both english mps and uk mps to stop the duplication, which was one of the arguments again regional assemblies. One of the reasons i believe this is because i cannot see english mps voting to give away much of their current powers to a new body. Politicians tending to vote for self interest and all that.
153

The Riddler 2,

17/12/2007 17:20:25
#173 Shredder: I shall await further developments before deciding on whether he’s the real Evil Voice: at the moment, I’d say that he’s not, on a balance of probabilities as, like you say, he’s been posting rather a lot of meaningless statistics (even by his own lowly standards). I wonder if the sorry troll who is currently masquerading as the Evil One would ever be mistaken for AM2, who seems to be doing his usual Godot impersonation just now (or is he actually working at his small business, for once?)
154

Boswall,

17/12/2007 17:22:39
A few points:

1. Support for separation can do down as well as up. Just look at the support for separation when JS was in charge of the SNP.

2. This result will need to be replicated in other polls before it could be considered to be a ganuine trend.

3. It's not clear if the latest issues regarding alledged SNP/Trump corruption had been revealed at the time of polling.
155

David MacVicar,

web 17/12/2007 17:22:56
#100 AM2.

Forgive me if I jumped to conclusions though they were based on statements you have made in the past. You have said that you consider yourself British 1st and last. I believe you have also stated a preference for 1 British state without individual nations or even national identities iirc. This seems to contradict your support for devolution, still the unionist mind is a complex maze of twisted reasoning. If you believe in devolution then I stand corrected.

The term Brit Nat was not meant in a derogatory way and certainly not in a BNP way, its a refletion of how unionists see Scottish Nationalists and was used to emphasise your strong belief in your fundamental British nationality and the independence of the British state with recognition as such within global organisations, or is that no longer true?
156

Seaforth,

17/12/2007 17:25:06
nonetheless, a dirty BritNat.
157

d.j.,

17/12/2007 17:32:16
I agree with the person who thinks that there is far to much history on both BBC and ITV that has no relevance to Scotland, such as Elizabeth 1 and Henry the Eighth and should be banished from Scottish television screens from now on.
For to long we have been taught that what belongs to Scotland be it history or the Gaelic language is just a step to far.

So I would like to add my name to a petition whose purpose is to see purely English language history programmes shown only in England.
158

Ken S.,

England 17/12/2007 17:35:55
#175 Alan B

I'm at ease with regionalisation/local democracy/decentralisation of power etc within the nation. The nub of the matter is of course whether "nation" in this context means UK or its present components separately. It cannot apply varyingly in different parts of a unified nation.

You refer to England's MPs doubling up as UK MPs to avoid duplication. Do you not see that as a current difficulty in Scotland, with both MPs and MSPs?

I saw a comment on another website that I thought summed up the situation rather nicely, so I kept it:
" ... If you calculate the ratio of national (National Assembly & UK Parliament) elected representatives to voters in each of the four home nations you find this:

In Northern Ireland there is one representative for 15,000 voters

In Scotland there is one representative for 25,000 voters.

In Wales there is one representative for 30,000 voters.

In England there is one representative for 93,000 voters.

... it seems that English based voters are getting far less democratic representation for their tax pound than the other three home nations and ...there is insufficient focus by our representatives on large parts of England. ...I don't consider that providing exactly equal representation is realistic but providing a separate English Parliament and devolving exactly the same powers to all four Home Nations' assemblies will likely rectify the current issues to an acceptable extent and significantly dissipate the ill feeling that currently exists"

That sounds more akin to federation and of course leaves each of the federated components to decide how it wishes to organise its local/regional structures.
159

Geoff,

South africa 17/12/2007 17:44:37
Nice new website Ed.!

162 English Voice-these stats say it all! Amazing-when u think that the UK has less than one percent of the worlds population yet figures in the top ten(and often top five)of all the things that count in this world! And there are those who want to destroy this-inexplicable!! We have a union that,family spats apart works well AND has a mechanism to reflect and recognise the nuances that exist in our culture-why in the name of heavenchange what doesnt need changeing?

We are all following the further disintegration in the Balkans with the Kososvo saga set to further splinter this unhappy part of Europe- a sorry ugly sight where imaginary differences between people-neighbours, have been inflamed and exploited to create this bloody mess.

If Scotland does become Independent I have no doubt that the ill feeling that this will generate within and without Scotland and the british isles will heal,but you have to ask yourself-is this all REALLY necessary? You could end up with Tommy Sheridan as President!
160

,

17/12/2007 17:45:52
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161

BMeister,

17/12/2007 17:47:57
#172
'40% for eh? Well that means there's 60% against.'

No, that means 40% for, 44% against and 16% don't know.
162

Warden An' All, Reborn,

17/12/2007 17:48:13
What an incredible publicity coupe for us supporters of the Union on Saturday night, with that magnificent coordinated display by Leon, he has planted the seed in the minds of almost all Scots that with the Union you are “better with the Devil you know”, the song he sang with Kylie. It doesn’t matter one bit what the figures are right now, our people are cowards when the real subject comes to the vote, just look at the figures from a couple of weeks before the Scottish elections, and then look at the greatly reduce figures who actually voted for the nats.
163

Warden An' All, Reborn,

17/12/2007 17:52:31
184/BMeister - Constitutional matters usually require two thirds of a vote to carry them in Britain, so how exactly is the vote going to carry when the for vote is lucky to make it to 40%.
164

Geoff,

SA 17/12/2007 17:56:46
180 dj-Queen Elizabeth and mary Queen of SCOTS were first cousins! No relevance to Scotland? Mmm
Also if you think only England should show "English" news do you think American News shud also be banned from Scottish TV?
165

Talorthane,

17/12/2007 18:01:46
#185 Warden

If X-Factor has any influance at all (as you suggest) on voting intentions, then perhaps the last song would have more impact.

When You Believe

"Who knows what miracles
You can achieve
When you believe"

A positive message about doing something differently; moving away from the status quo.
166

,

17/12/2007 18:02:42
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167

The Riddler 2,

17/12/2007 18:03:33
183 & 189 Ayrshire Scot: I see that you’ve gone back to your original position, before AM2’s posts allegedly turned you towards separatism. Can you tell me what finally put you off nationalism? I think we’d all be interested to know, as you’ve spent all day every day for the last few months promoting the cause online, to the no doubt sever dertiment of whatever social life you had before.
168

An English Voice™,

17/12/2007 18:04:02
175. My preference is to give the same status and responsibilities as Holyrood to all four members of the UK...and perhaps start calling them all 'Nations' as opposed to nations/principality/province, making it a true partnership of four. England clearly doesn't want to be broken into smaller parts (would Scotland?) so create a new more equal voting system similar to the US Senate or the new 'double majority' system of the European Council.

I'd also like to see the Union Flag amended with the shield of the Royal Arms placed in the centre, so Wales finally gets a mention!

The English Parliament would be ridiculous if it involved a whole new 'iconic' (aka expensive) building with 500 brand new MEPs. Keep the same Westminster MPs and set aside a period each month for them to discuss English-only matters. As for the 'seat', Westminster Hall or Methodist Hall. Salmond is a part-time FM and a part-time MP along with much of his SG cabinet and the same goes for the NI and Welsh Governments. It's not perfect but is preferable to an entirely separate and very expensive body.

Regarding Barnett, scrap it as it was only meant to be a temporary measure. Instead allow greater fiscal autonomy but to a degree that won't encourage tax competition that can and will only result lower taxes and poorer public services (see many federal states for examples, especially the US with underfunded public schools, hospitals and roads). We should compete with the rest of the world but not with ourselves.

Whitehall to collect separate 'UK taxes' much in the way a federal government works. Included in the UK budget would be a fund to be distributed, via a new formula, to those communities with a GVA/GDP below the national average.

I'm now umm-ing and ah-ing about full federalism as a codfied constitution greatly restricts the ability of government to adapt to changing times. Keep it as devolution+ but within a 'unitary' UK.
169

,

17/12/2007 18:04:18
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170

,

17/12/2007 18:07:30
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171

Montague Q X Burton,

Running out of fingers and toes. 17/12/2007 18:08:42
So! Here we have it conclusive proof that this newspaper is currently only fit for kindling and wiping dog dirt off one's shoes.

The Scotsman deigns to write 156 (one hundred and fifty-six) words about one of the most pivotal shifts in Scottish attitudes to Independence ever! Yet devotes 1011 (one thousand and eleven words) to the thoughts of a shop assistant who happens to have won an opportunity knocks style tellybox show.

Readers revel in the ignorance, wallow in the shallow end of political reportage...buy another newspaper.
172

An English Voice™,

17/12/2007 18:10:26
Pah, just remembered that Wales aren't in the Royal Arms so lets put a red dragon in there. Tut.
173

pehman,

sussex 17/12/2007 18:13:00
INDEPENDENCE X

INDEPENDENCE LITE

STATUS QUO
174

An English Voice™,

17/12/2007 18:13:27
194. Independence polls fluctuate wildly. Just weeks before, it was only 23% in favour.

A year ago, polls were reporting 44% in favour.

Everyone seems to know this....except you.
175

An English Voice™,

17/12/2007 18:18:35
Back to an English Parliament briefly....Central Hall looks perfect!

http://www.c-h-w.com/roomhire/vt-greathall.shtml

That is all.
176

Montague Q X Burton,

Poking English Voice with the sharp end of a pipe. 17/12/2007 18:18:36
#197 Ah do you speak for everyone, or perhaps merely the many voices in your pointy little head?

Keep denying things are changing English Vice, one day it'll all be over and you can come over from the dark side.
177

Conan the Librarian™,

17/12/2007 18:20:04
190
The Riddler 2
That's not Ayrshire.
Note the space after the™
178

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17/12/2007 18:20:12
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Conan the Librarian™,

17/12/2007 18:20:58
Hunnerbag :-)
180

Conan the Librarian™,

17/12/2007 18:22:53
Yah boo sucks fakie.
Well,according to the real Ayrshire you do.
181

I'm no really here,

17/12/2007 18:23:55
Getting there
182

Geoff,

Suid Afrika 17/12/2007 18:25:40
Could someone clarify something for me(older generation-computer challenged):
I enjoy Ayrshire Scots comments-in both Nationalist or Unionist form. Maybe he has fluid opinions or perhaps like English voice, he has two identities ie someone has hijacked his name. If the Scotsman has a "Pen Name" linked to an email address, then surely this would be enough to prevent others using this name? There must be an infinite number of pen names available so if u already have a "Geoff" linked to a specific email address, dont allow any other email address to use this name.Prob solved
183

Warden An' All, Reborn,

17/12/2007 18:27:01
188/ talorthane –The x-factor show regularly manipulates it audience to make as much money it can in a manner Darren Brown would be proud of “When You Believe” is a very poor song but will make it to number one simply because of this show, manipulation at its best.
184

An English Voice™,

Calling Montague Q X Burton names behind his back. 17/12/2007 18:27:29
I do speak for everyone. It's more a burden than a gift though.

Why would I ever want to see Scotland leave one of the richest and most powerful nations in the world to become just another small nation among many, many others? A non-descript footnote sitting on a small hard-back chair at the back of the hall, next to the mop and bucket (and maybe the gas meter) while the rest of the country continues to enjoy its place, lounging in the softest of leather chairs at the top tables of the UN, EU, G8, OECD, OSCE, NATO, Commonwealth....?

Why, I ask you? Why?
185

The Riddler 2,

17/12/2007 18:29:39
#200 Conan the Librarian: has he somehow done away with the real Ayrshire then? Where is he? It’s like walking into a familiar bar and finding that the duke box’s been stolen (whatever trash it was constantly playing!)
186

Warden An' All, Reborn,

17/12/2007 18:30:57
What did people think of that song by Kylie and Leon on Saturday "BETTER THE DEVIL YOU KNOW" now that must seem like a very apt song for Leon, as can you imagine him ever having such a chance of becoming a star if we had been independent, NO!
187

Conan the Librarian™,

17/12/2007 18:31:26
205
Geoff
Computers are very literal.You may see Ayrshire Scot™,
But the computer sees Ayshire Scot™ ,
You don't recognise the space as being important,but the computer does.
188

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 17/12/2007 18:33:01
#180, dj

Sorry dj, I don't agree. What we need is a devolved BBC that take cogniscence of the fact that there is devolution, then some of the programming might be more pertinent. Sometimes the six o' clock news deals with several issues that are relevant only to an English audience. Perhaps the solution is to deal with English only issues, like education etc., on a separate programme - just as we have with Reporting Scotland and the STV Scottish news. To start censoring programmes because they aren't Scottish enough seems daft to me. I'd also like more news about Europe and the European Parliament. When do you ever see any coverage of decisions taken in the EU? Almost never, I'd say - at least not on the main news channels. I'd have a daily round up of Europe which took stories from other countries, if even only a few minutes.
189

Montague Q X Burton,

17/12/2007 18:33:10
#207

Chuffing crikey! How you must loathe Scotland and the Scots.

Tell me do you wear belt and braces, sleep with the light on and alwyas wear a condom if your wife allows you participation in your annual marital ghastliness love fest?
190

Conan the Librarian™,

17/12/2007 18:35:25
208
Riddler 2
He is still around,just watch the space,heh unintentional pun.
191

David MacVicar,

web 17/12/2007 18:36:07
#196 pehman

If a 3 question referendum were held now the options based on what we know would be:

Status Quo
Status Quo + Wendy
Independence

This time next year it would likely be:
Status Quo
Status Quo + no new info + Wendy successor (some other apologist same patter)
Independence

Finally it might be
Status Quo
Status Quo + devolution Max key ring and minor changes
Independence
192

Geoff,

17/12/2007 18:36:09
195 English Voice-Royal Arms-England at present occupies the first and fourth quarters-simple solution would be to give the fourth quarter to Wales. Not so sure about the Arms on the UJ though. Representative deficiencies apart,it is a brilliant design as it is. Maybe the St.Georges cross could be designated as representing St PirranCornwall,St. David Wales and St G. England with the red and white colours for Wales as well as NI and england.
193

An English Voice™,

17/12/2007 18:36:11
207....and also the top tables of the Council of Europe, the World Trade Organisation, the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund....
194

Earnst Blofeld,

17/12/2007 18:38:11
#208 The Riddler 2: Ayrshire’s been taking such a trashing on this thread (one way or another) that I’m not surprised that we’ve seen neither hyde or hair of him for some time.

#213 Conan the Barbarian: are you he then? I know he's the proverbial bad penny on this site (don't we all wish he'd get a life etc etc)
195

David MacVicar,

web 17/12/2007 18:38:55
207
An English Voice™
"A non-descript footnote sitting on a small hard-back chair at the back of the hall, next to the mop and bucket"

Why did you have to bring AM2 back into things?
196

Warden An' All, Reborn,

17/12/2007 18:43:06
207/An English Voice - You are right, and if anyone can actually prove you wrong 100% on the matter then do so, but I doubt it.
197

An English Voice™,

17/12/2007 18:43:25
215. Just replace one of the 'England' corners with the Welsh dragon. Job done.

The Union Flag you'll see outside our Embassies/High Commissions/Consulates is pretty much what I'm suggesting:

http://www.jrtmiller.net/images/photos/79_-_British_Empassy_in_Prague_.jpg
198

Conan the Librarian™,

17/12/2007 18:44:53
217
Not I.
The real Ayrshire has a very distinct turn of phrase.The nearest here would probably be Montague.(But I don't think it is).

And it is Conan the Librarian™,by the way.
199

,

17/12/2007 18:57:05
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200

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 17/12/2007 18:59:25
It is not enough to want independence, if we cannot define the kind of country we want. There is a great spectrum of people among the nationalists: from Scottish skinheads to leftie looneys. Unless there is broad consensus independence will merely be the beginning of the end for Scotland/Alba. For example: Are we going to introduce a law to control the ownership of land by foreigners? If so, what will this law state? Are we going to allow Scots abroad, such as students at universities and pensioners, to vote? There are thousands of such problems. And it's going to cost us a huge sum to sort it all out legally. One estimate I read was £10 000 million. Are we as Scots prepared to put our heads down, work extremely hard, and forego imported luxuries in order to fund independence? Well, are we? Really?!
201

,

17/12/2007 18:59:38
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202

,

17/12/2007 19:05:37
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,

17/12/2007 19:09:12
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Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Independence 17/12/2007 19:12:36
137
Yok Finney,
Ross-shire 17/12/2007 14:23:10

I like what your implying.


205

David MacVicar,

web 17/12/2007 19:13:40
207/An English Voice - You are right. Canada, Ireland, Australia and a Billion in India are so jealous. What a mistake they made, oh well its their loss.

Meantime we can cling onto the skeleton of Empire and still show Iraq and Iran who is boss. Well maybe not Iran they keep moving their territorial water boundaries making fools out of us and capturing our sailors. Wait a sec we did at least manage to reclaim water North of England as English territory recently so there is life in the old dog yet - ah reminds me of the good old days.

Remember: cling onto Empire at all costs as once Scotland goes the UN security council seat probably goes with it together with the need for the inflated defence budget. Ordinary Scots and English will move on in quiet prosperity, the burden of Empire finally removed.
206

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17/12/2007 19:14:31
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17/12/2007 19:16:19
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Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 17/12/2007 19:19:41
#222 Wini: Any properly educated university student whi has gone through first year would know that for a random sample of 1000, one std dev is closely approximated by the square root of 1000 divided by 1000. This is equal to 1/sqrt(1000). Now 1.96 standard deviations from the mean of a normally distributed population yields the 95% confidence limit. However AM2 has made a very understandable mistake by dividing this confidence limit by two, instead of multiplying it by two to include both the negative and positive limits. Thus the real 95% confidence interval is the value found in the survey plus and minus 6.198% of that value. E.g., if 40% of the population is stated to support independence, then the 95% confidence interval is from 40%-0.06198x40% up to 40%+0.06198x40%. Thus the 95% confidence interval is from 37.5208% up to 42.4792%. This is the result that can be scientificaaly accepted, not 40%, which is merely the mean.
209

David MacVicar,

web 17/12/2007 19:19:48
224 Caora Dubh

Isn't land rights and land reform already devolved? I dont see why this would change much or cost much more with independence? I would love to see further land reform but I doubt independence is the main driver.
210

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 17/12/2007 19:20:49
As if polls are an accurate meter.

100% of natives who make an effort to educate themselves fully have been demanding independence since the debacle of a union with the english.

98% of Polish immigrants will vote SNP

50/50 on the english incomers who are perpetually confused about their identity will vote for independence, the other 50% will have their eyes shut and vote for good old imperialism, what what?

The rest that don't know should certainly not be allowed to count as a 'No'vote.

211

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17/12/2007 19:25:25
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212

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 17/12/2007 19:39:10
Pondering the headline of this article:

"Support for independence up to 40% in past months"

Why the need to include "in past months"? Could it be a conscience thing about lying about previous figures?
213

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 17/12/2007 19:46:00
Swaping a crumbling Saxon imperial Empire for a rootless bunch of incompetent imperialists in Bruxxellss is not wise.

Full Independence on an international footing is the only way forward.
214

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 17/12/2007 19:46:42
We will be the kings of our castles.

215

whitegold,

Shire 17/12/2007 20:32:51
Wini - really you haven't got a clue, and repeating falsehood isn't clever.

Population size doesn't matter - only sample size and if it is a genuine random sample. This is a simple mathematical fact, its not really my fault if you are clueless about this.

Before you keep on putting your foot in it do read up a bit first. I'm sorry if my post sounded rude - but honestly your post at 101 is pure ignorance.

If the wikipedia link is too slow loading or faulty try:
http://americanresearchgroup.com/moe.html

http://www.isixsigma.com/library/content/c040607a.asp

or look up things yourself. AM2 on this thread, another poster on another thread, and myself here, have all strongly pointed out you are very much in the wrong. Instead of perhaps checking up the facts you keep writing purely ignorant and fallacious comments.

Honestly reading your posts on this subject is very much like reading someone genuinely arguing that the earth is flat. It really is that bad.
216

Harris tweed and levi's 501,

Edinburgh 17/12/2007 21:44:38
#224
A black cringing balloon contributes:-

“t is not enough to want independence, if we cannot define the kind of country we want. There is a great spectrum of people among the nationalists: from Scottish skinheads to leftie looneys. Unless there is broad consensus independence will merely be the beginning of the end for Scotland/Alba. For example: Are we going to introduce a law to control the ownership of land by foreigners? If so, what will this law state? Are we going to allow Scots abroad, such as students at universities and pensioners, to vote? There are thousands of such problems. And it's going to cost us a huge sum to sort it all out legally. One estimate I read was £10 000 million. Are we as Scots prepared to put our heads down, work extremely hard, and forego imported luxuries in order to fund independence? Well, are we? Really?!”

I imagine that the concept of self-determination is indeed beyond your ken.


You epitomise the forelock touching , bottom licking, inferiority complex ridden, poor thinking, poverty loving, anti Scottish, cringing element which we are in the process of chasing.

We recognise that you and your ilk have neither the capacity nor the will to drive our country forward, this is why we are chasing you.

Scotland is taking over!

Goodbye unionist cringers, close the door behind you.
217

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/12/2007 22:06:33
The real reason behind removing the comments without giving a reason? 1&2 were reasonable

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POl4vFp-5os

218

 Ayrshire Scot™,

17/12/2007 22:22:49
245 they were from fakey stalker
219

Kipling,

Testing 17/12/2007 22:32:48
 Ayrshire Scot™,
220

Kipling,

17/12/2007 22:36:58
 Ayrshire Scot™, you have 51 postings to go before 300.
221

Conan the Librarian™,

17/12/2007 22:43:19
248
Well lets get on with it then.
222

Kipling,

17/12/2007 22:46:38
 Ayrshire Scot™, TM is not on your side.
223

 Ayrshire Scot™,

17/12/2007 22:50:34
251 ?
224

Kipling,

17/12/2007 22:51:02
But I'm doing everything I can to help.
225

Eve,

Scotland 17/12/2007 22:53:02
This poll was in the Sunday herald yeasterday, front page.

It's amasing how a poll can make front page, I wonder what the disscusion at Holyrood about a referendum would get? Front page or a tiny wee bit hiddin in a random place!!!

Possible NOT much cause the united unionist are against it. Restricted democarcy is what the union belives in some times I wonder just how restricted it is. With No hope or faith in Westminster my mind is open to just about any persentage of restreictions on democrasy in Scotland and the rest of the useless union.

226

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17/12/2007 23:08:34
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227

Eve,

Scotland 17/12/2007 23:13:07
#255 Castaway: Thats rubbish!!!!

Are they really going a head with that stuiped plan!!!! Treating us like a small an insicknificant region rather than than the country we really are. It's times like these I wonder why I feel dissapointed in the Westminster goverment, I woundn't have thought it would be possible to become disapointed in something I didn't trust BUT apparently it happens in politics or so I'm finding out. I geuss I just hope wan day they'll see sence BUT I really dought they ever will. Must be my positive state of mind at the moment that makse me think that the Westminster folk can't be as bad as I think they are and for them to prove me wroung in the 0 trust thing. I'm dissapointed that they never prove me wrong.


Roll on Scottish Independence. May it come soon and before we need to get thoes stupied ID cards.
228

Conan the Librarian™,

17/12/2007 23:14:24
257
http://www.mun.ca/biology/scarr/Dixon_Night_Stalker.jpg
229

Eve,

Scotland 17/12/2007 23:17:56
#256 Wini: How long does that take!!!!!

Is there a persentage of how many time you loes the coin too????

My experences in throwing coin is that I appear to loes them every so ofted, when they go under a table it's easy to see what they are BUT when it gose behide/under something that it's diffult to acess a lot of the time it is un clear what way up it or in some occasions they are standing on the side.
230

Conan the Librarian™,

17/12/2007 23:22:37
261
Brilliant Eve,LOL.
231

An English Voice,

17/12/2007 23:27:36
255. Who gives a flying donald about the
European Parliament?!

It all happens in the European Council, as anyone who knew anything about Europe will tell you.

However, if the SNP Little Scotlanders want to go from 73 votes to "12-14" votes with all the real influence that brings.....

By the way, as the Parliament has now got a permanent limit of 751 seats, what's going to happen to that 12-14 when all those other countries in C and E Europe join? They are all smaller than the UK so where is the cut going to come?

Can you honestly see the 'big four' of Germany, UK, France and Italy happily accepting a cut in their votes? With the massive EU migration of around six million workers and their families, so far, into the UK (mostly the SE), there is a growing case for the UK vote to be increased.

On the one hand, you have a country that sits on the top tables of the UNSC, EU, G8, OECD, OSCE, NATO, Commonwealth, the Council of Europe, the World Trade Organisation, the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund (breathe in!), has the EU's strongest economy, has the EU's strongest military, is the primary link between the EU and the USA, is a nuclear power, home of the first true lingua franca, home of one of the world's principal cultures, home of the world's financial capital....

While on the other hand, you have a country that.....well, to be blunt, doesn't and isn't.

Who will lose out in a battle of votes or of influence? In what practical way is this 'independence'?!

Something to think about, perhaps.
232

An English Voice,

17/12/2007 23:34:09
Of course, the ceiling of 751 seats has already been reached so that "12-14" will of course be somewhat less!

As an independent Scotland will be the 5th smallest nation in the EU, you'd still probably have about ten votes. Perhaps.

Not quite the 73 votes you have now but at least they'll be YOUR ten! It will be YOUR 1.3% of the total vote!
233

Eve,

17/12/2007 23:35:48
#263 Wini: What is my spelling becoming incredibly obscure.

No the day I'm tee total,

Tomorrow I'll be juice total,

And the day after that I'm planing to get ..........
234

Eve,

17/12/2007 23:37:58
#264 An English Voice: You it would appear!!!!
235

Conan the Librarian™,

17/12/2007 23:40:53
EV without™
I don't care about"sitting in the soft leather seats at the top table".
I don't want my country targeted by nuclear weapons,like it was in my youth.
Nor do I want todays youth of my country hanging about street corners jobless and hopeless,the money to create jobs gone to pay for our nuclear bombs.
Like the past thirty years...
236

An English Voice,

17/12/2007 23:45:17
268. It was those nuclear bombs that prevented a WW3.

They also cost less than £2bn a year by today's prices.

So how exactly did they cost jobs? As 4,000 civilians work at Faslane, I'd say they create jobs!
237

Kipling,

17/12/2007 23:45:42
 Ayrshire Scot™, 31 to go.
238

Kipling,

17/12/2007 23:46:09
29 by now
239

Conan the Librarian™,

17/12/2007 23:46:31
266
...A nice smooth peice of wood?
240

Eve,

Scotland (oh flower of Scotland) 17/12/2007 23:47:39
#265 An English Voice: 10 more than 7/6.

73 seats, BUT only 6 of them will care about Scotland.

I reallt don't see or expect the member in Walse and areas of England put Scotland need forward as important to be discussed and enabled. Hey the Scottish reperentive in an EU meeting was outside the door when things that incuded Scotland were being dicussed. I'm confused in how that give Scotland a good repersention in the EU.

Personaly I could see the rest of the UK (whats ever left) being the wans that struggle with the loss of MEP that they have power over.

You cannae miss something you've never had.

If the EU are gonnae do things that are dextramental to Scotland, then I'd like think (or hope) that we'd leave the EU ASAP or at least have a referndum on it.
241

An English Voice,

17/12/2007 23:51:35
But if you want independence, those 4,000 families will lose their main livelihood as will the thousands who work at the BAe Clyde yards. These yards depend greatly on the stream of MOD orders and when this work is moved to 'UK yards' in England or NI....
242

Sanny,

Glasgow 17/12/2007 23:52:09
7
AM2, Glasgow
I have to agree with Doonhamer, you are trying the same spin again. Look at the trend and ask yourself, what would be the figure if a referendum was called? It would take at least six months to get up and running by which time the Pro-Independence vote might have soared well over the 50% mark.

From a Unionist point of view, the time to have called a referendum was BEFORE the May election. The electorate has now seen the effect of a government that is independent of Westminster, so the genie is out of the bottle and all the spinning in the world won’t put the genie back. It is too late now for the Unionists this Union is in its death throes.

A similar situation applies to Brown. Had he called an early election he would have won, possibly with a reduced majority, but he would have been able to claim a mandate from the electorate and he would have had up to five years in office. I believe that before the end of this parliament (Westminster) he will be removed or there will be an early election. One thing for certain he will not lead the labour party after this parliament either as PM or as leader of the opposition.
243

Conan the Librarian™,

17/12/2007 23:52:22
269
Twas the American bombs that did that,not our wee contribution to Armageddon.The amount of money invested in nukes...Well if you put it in purely military terms,Two,maybe three Divisions.Lots more wages no?
244

Eve,

17/12/2007 23:52:35
#269 An English Voice: Bombs prevent wars!!! Aye right!!!!!

I always thought it was about saying to another country i.e. a middle east wan (for some odd reason) "look how big ma bombs are I bet you wish you had bombs has bigg as this". "OH you do"!!!! or "Oh there bigger"!!!!
245

Eve,

17/12/2007 23:54:55
#272 Conan the Librarian™,: Naw, a christmas present for ma maw.
246

An English Voice,

17/12/2007 23:55:58
273. You're absolutely right. When the UK government vote in the Council, they don't really give a damn about Scotland.

Grow up! Stop believing everything the SNP and its fanatical mob says and start thinking it through for yourself.

Cue the fishing industry complaint....There are no fish left in the North Sea in case you haven't noticed! What are they going to fish for, whelks?!
247

Kipling,

17/12/2007 23:56:10
Midnight!
248

Kipling,

17/12/2007 23:56:30
Oh, my computer clock's wrong
249

JimC,

Kilmarnock 17/12/2007 23:58:06
Ayrshire Scot, why did you pull the video?????????
250

Kipling,

17/12/2007 23:59:50
Midnight! (no sponsored by accurist)
251

Kipling,

18/12/2007 00:00:02
Midnight
252

,

18/12/2007 00:01:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
253

Conan the Librarian™,

18/12/2007 00:01:27
278
Hehe,you've left it this late?
Erm...Have you any ideas?
254

An English Voice,

18/12/2007 00:02:22
LOL! There are some people on here that are so ignorant of the world that there is just not enough time to bring them up to speed.

Night all.
255

Kipling,

18/12/2007 00:04:43
there's 4m difference with the website clock & accurist
256

Sanny,

Upwey 18/12/2007 00:06:28
274
An English Voice
You completely miss the point. It is about a lot more than a few jobs. First it will take time to wind down the existing system and there will be time enough to create new jobs. Perhaps, without the dead hand of Westminster, we could revive the Clydeside as the great ship builders they once were. Norway has done just that!

Tell me an industrialised nation that has failed after gaining Independence. Have a long hard think on this. Look at all the nations that have achieved independence since WWII. Which of them have failed and which of them would slip back under the “protection” of their previous domain. Whilst you are considering this ask how many of the newly independent and successful Nations have the resources to compare with Scotland’s.

An honest appraisal would change your thinking on this but I doubt if you are capable of giving an honest opinion.
257

Eve,

Scotland 18/12/2007 00:06:30
#279 An English Voice: Really!!!!! Theres Plenty of fish off of Abroth, big Spainish fishing boats spend a lot of time there.

Really the only pise of water in Scotland or the UK that you can fish in is the North sea, This is news to me. I though we where an iland.

The Alanitic Oasen appears to have plenty and so do alot of rivers, lochs and lakes.

The only shortage of fish I'm hearing about in this part of the world is COD and Hadock and whitting are just so much more tasty than COD.

Oh I have grown up the question there should be have you!!! My views are NOT a CCc of the SNP BUT yours are CCc of an Arogant English know it all!!!!
258

Eve,

Scotland 18/12/2007 00:08:56
#287 An English Voice: AND YOU'D BE WAN OF THEM!!!!!
259

Kipling,

18/12/2007 00:10:52
 Ayrshire Scot™, Watch out for Wini, he feeds his cattle at this time & might just get there first.
260

Eve,

18/12/2007 00:12:36
#286 Conan the Librarian™: Aye BUT I got destracted, by few problems which crossed and some time double crossed my path!!!!!

Good night, I'm sleepy and I've got to go Christmas shoping tomorrow and if I leave it to the afternoon, the shops will be swampt.
261

Conan the Librarian™,

18/12/2007 00:13:23
291
Indeed.English arrogance in this matter is appalling.
They seem to think that they will be able to afford nuclear weapons after the break-up.
262

Conan the Librarian™,

18/12/2007 00:15:55
292
Just what are you suggesting,Kipling?
263

Kipling,

18/12/2007 00:18:08
On this day the death penalty for murder was formally abolished in Britain. Divorce was allowed in Italy.
264

Conan the Librarian™,

18/12/2007 00:19:37
Kipling

http://www.merch-bot.com/images/stalker.png
265

Kipling,

18/12/2007 00:20:40
Slavery was abolished in the USA. Scotland might yet become independent.
266

Conan the Librarian™,

18/12/2007 00:22:19
298
Of course.
267

Conan the Librarian™,

18/12/2007 00:22:30
Race
268

Kipling,

18/12/2007 00:23:41
Conan, you're Wini in disguise!
269

Conan the Librarian™,

18/12/2007 00:24:51
Hoos poos ya bas.Ayrshire Scot™ Rules OK.
270

Conan the Librarian™,

18/12/2007 00:26:17
302
You are sooo wrong.Ask AM2.
271

Kipling,

18/12/2007 00:28:56
Open your windows, Conan. You're a drop out.
272

Conan the Librarian™,

18/12/2007 00:29:15
301
AM2
You are like a breath of...well air.
The amount of trolling has reached meltdown.
Please say something sensible.
For you.
273

Conan the Librarian™,

18/12/2007 00:30:11
306
I meant EV AM2!
274

Conan the Librarian™,

18/12/2007 00:35:33
305
Oh witty one,shall I respond with exceedingly good reparté?
275

Kipling,

18/12/2007 00:37:47
Did you roll the 'r' with that one, mon ami?
276

Conan the Librarian™,

18/12/2007 00:44:55
310
I never roll my Rs.
Exept when I am wearing ma kilt.
277

Kipling,

Thinking: maybe Ayrshire Scot™ will get the next c 18/12/2007 00:47:05
As is pronounced in france: reparte='chepachté' , or in a takeaway kebab shop: 'chepate', arabic for bread. Which is much the same as what you find in Conan's library, a B-read.
278

Conan the Librarian™,

18/12/2007 00:50:25
311
You got me Am2.
I started out talking about EV,but forgot to put the voice in.Mea culpa.
279

Conan the Librarian™,

18/12/2007 00:53:12
313
Rather laboured kipling.Perhaps your politics too?
280

Conan the Librarian™,

18/12/2007 00:55:17
316
I feel an "Aye right" in the force Am2.
281

Conan the Librarian™,

18/12/2007 01:01:55
Well you can't be bold or italic in this rather poor website.I used to think the Herald bad(that would have been in in italics).
282

Conan the Librarian™,

18/12/2007 01:05:36
321
Goodnight.
283

Kipling,

18/12/2007 01:15:15
Are the two turkeys in bed yet?
284

Conan the Librarian™,

18/12/2007 01:23:23
323
Enjoy

http://www.simplydumb.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/thanksgiving-dirty-turkey.jpg
285

Kipling,

18/12/2007 01:53:41
Back to bed, Conan, or you'll be grumpy in the morning. (I don't bother with the links unless they're informative politically.)
286

Kipling,

18/12/2007 16:28:39
The sleep did them good.
287

Eve,

Scotland 18/12/2007 16:58:05
#328 Kipling,: What!!!!
288

Sanny,

Glasgow 18/12/2007 17:57:56
301 AM2, Glasgow 18/12/2007 00:22:53
#275 Sanny
Read my lips. No single-option referendum. Your point, if you had one, would be moot.
________________________________________________________________

AM2: Now you try to read what was written. Where do I make a reference to a single-option referendum? In other postings I have considered the likely outcome of a two of a three question referendum.
Why should anyone wish to read your lips you only bring forth excrement.
289

Kipling,

19/12/2007 01:20:03
#239. Eve, sorry, maybe they need another night off.
290

Keith McBurney,

Yorkshire 19/12/2007 19:06:28
Uniquely, a Confederation would accommodate pro-Independence and pro-Union preferences.
291

Transparent?,

Scotland 19/12/2007 19:21:56
How much did this poll cost your donors, Mr Salmond?
292

Keith McBurney,

28/12/2007 07:01:59
Back from a joyous time with kith and kin, i find this article still headlined online. In the spirit of all which enjoins us like it or not, i ask AM2 whoever he or she might be to comment on my thought through entry at 326 why we might not find common cause for the good of all. In doing so, if he/she might unmask his/herself for the common good, i think that we might encourage others to do likewise. Forgive me all, but it is time this act was cleaned-up, for to do otherwise merely serves those who would be masters of us all.
293

Lisbon-Lion,

Glasgow 15/01/2008 17:39:25
If Westminster, Tories, Libs and wee Wendy keep going the way they are going it will soon be up to 60% then we can finally stand tall and get rid of Westminster.

PS: I'm not ANTI-ENGLISH, after independence English people are welcome to work and live in Scotland!

 

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