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Stop talking about Salmond so much, Labour would-be leaders urged

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Published Date: 29 August 2008
THE three candidates vying for the Scottish Labour leadership were urged to stop talking about the SNP leader last night.
Iain Gray, Cathy Jamieson and Andy Kerr appeared before 150 people in Glasgow for the latest in a series of hustings meetings.

A questioner asked: "Would you stop using Alex Salmond in your speeches? You're giving him a platform he doesn't deserve."

Mr Gray told her:

"The thing people like about Alex Salmond is not his policies but that his leadership is confident.

"The Labour Party has to rediscover its own confidence, because our values beat his values into a cocked hat."

Ms Jamieson said:

"It's time to reassert Labour values of fairness, social justice and opportunity for all."

Mr Kerr said: "I think that role of taking on Salmond and holding him to account for all his policy failures and broken promises is a significant role for the leader."





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  • Last Updated: 28 August 2008 11:40 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish Labour Party
 
1

8/10 Cats,

29/08/2008 00:03:50
Why shoudl the opposition "oppose" the government? eh, clearly an SNP pleb trying to stop people asking awkard questions like why did your manifesto turn out to be a pile of lies?
2

FrancesP,

29/08/2008 00:05:23
Not a surprise to see Andy Kerr come out on top in the STV debate tonight - debating is one of his stronger points - although it did seem to me that Michael Crow gave him less time to speak than the others.
3

Coileach an taobh Tuath,

29/08/2008 00:05:31
1 8/10 Cats, 29/08/2008 00:03:50

Actually sounded more like a frustrated Labour Supporter sick of Labour's negative approach and wanting to find what it Labour actually stand for..

What alternative are Labour advocating?



4

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29/08/2008 00:10:12
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5

Brian S,

Edinburgh 29/08/2008 00:24:27
Medication time 8/10!
6

Jimmy Le Pie,

29/08/2008 00:25:45
Seeing as the Hootsmon no longer does 'news', only printing what Labour HQ tell them,

From The Independent

"Cabinet ministers will give Gordon Brown "one last chance" to save his premiership but will try to oust him by November if he fails to improve Labour's prospects."

Oh well looks like a leaving party soon??

Now lets get rid of the rest of the occupants of the rats nest.

VOTE SNP - The ONLY party for ALL the people of Scotland
7

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29/08/2008 00:33:05
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8

8/10 Cats,

29/08/2008 00:37:24
7

The SNP are in government, it's more important to talk about their policies as they effect more lives.

Where are the 1,000 police officers?

And so on...

The SNP lied to get votes and it is only fair they are held to account by the opposition, even Labour shoudl be able to do that.

The SNP are running scared. Anything but their own policies on teh agenda. Plebs like you beg and beg and beg to talk about labour policies because all you know how to do is bark like a dog.

Well, the shoes on the other foot for the SNP. It is their turn for scrutiny. And they don't like it!

Charlatans, the whole bunch of them.
9

Brian S,

Edinburgh 29/08/2008 00:39:20
Where is nurse Nurse Mildred Ratched when you need her?
10

Senga Jean,

29/08/2008 00:45:46
Police officers are like the 26 bus you wait hours and a thousand come along together. The timetable said 2011 too!
11

Senga Jean,

29/08/2008 00:48:40
8/10Cats Are you son of AM2 because your rants sound just as desperate . The SNP will triumph because Scotland itself wishes it to do so and usher in an age of fairness and justice and independence.
12

Robbie 2,

New Zealand 29/08/2008 00:52:56
8/10 Cats
As I asked you yesterday:
Why do you spend so much of you time spouting bile and negativity about a minority government who only had their budget passed a few months ago.
Why not discuss and enumerate all the positive wonderful things Unionist parties have done or will do for Scotland and the UK - if that’s what you believe? As any good salesperson knows ‘don’t keep knocking the opposition’ you only make the customer more aware of their existence. Always demonstrate the benefits and unique features of you own product (party). It’s a poor and potential failed person or party that just simply criticises the opposition as their only means of debate and has always been the disappointment of adversarial politics.
13

Wisnaeme,

29/08/2008 00:54:12

So they are going to ignore the man more, then?

Uh huh, a new Labour ignorance policy reveiw promise, then?

Ach, puir souls. Recent events never really happened and it's all just a bad dream.

Tick tock, tick tock, tick tock. Diiirrriiinnnggg.

Wakay wakay..., Its time.
.

14

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29/08/2008 01:04:50
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15

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29/08/2008 01:05:50
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16

Matt there,

somewhere 29/08/2008 01:06:58
8/10d, Cats?

Your posts are not even worth 6d!


17

,

29/08/2008 01:12:37
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18

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29/08/2008 01:13:07
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19

8/10 Cats,

29/08/2008 01:18:15
Ptdoug

You say some rubbish about Labour needing to tell us what they will do.

The SNP told us what they would do, got elected by a whisker, and then dumped all the promises. What is the point of lying?

Just holding the current government to account and scrutinising them would be far more helpful to Scotland than having another party that lies, lies and lies for a vote and then dumps the promises.

The SNP manifesto was a disgrace. There should be laws and technical resignation of government if you refuse to impliment more than 51% of your manefesto and instead give millions to gay groups, half millions for Islam parties and have photo shoots with sausages.
20

Robbie 2,

NZ 29/08/2008 01:19:34
8/10 Cats from another forum.
I have only recently notice your posts and so excuse me if you have already explained the following:

1 You say “ The SNP are running scared.” Do you really believe this? If so what does it say for your political understanding of present day Britain?
2 You are verdantly against Alex Salmond and the SNP - but what are you for?
3 Are you against countries (large or small) having sovereignty?
4 If you are for the Union - what do you believe (not counting warfare and conquest) have been it’s benefits for Scotland over the last 300 years?
5 If Alex Salmond is such a self-centred and ambitious politician why didn’t he join a party that would have made his route to political success easier (he’d have been a big fish among Scottish Labour) if he lied and toed the line in the that Party - (might have become UK PM)?
6 Why are you against independence - remember as before, Schumacher in his famed book, ’Small Is Beautiful’ observes,
“…if we make a list of all the most prosperous countries in the world, we find most of them are very small [UN figures substantiates this] whereas a list of all the biggest countries in the world show most to be very poor indeed”.
Do you personally believe that this great economist and writer was wrong and you right?
21

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29/08/2008 01:22:25
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29/08/2008 01:34:12
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29/08/2008 01:40:33
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29/08/2008 01:41:19
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29/08/2008 01:42:05
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29/08/2008 01:45:01
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29/08/2008 01:45:34
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29/08/2008 01:47:13
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29

Richardinho,

29/08/2008 02:51:17
ordinary labour party member:" pleee-ze could we start talking about our own policys for a change?!"

labour hierarchy: " NO-shut up you pleb and give us your donations!"

Seriously, no wonder no one wants to vote for them.
30

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29/08/2008 02:55:12
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31

donald anderson it's me,

weegieland 29/08/2008 02:55:26
The Three Stooges are going to get a doing aff o' Alex Salmond when they get back into the playgrun' and they know it.
32

Richardinho,

29/08/2008 03:14:32
"It's time to reassert Labour values of fairness, social justice and opportunity for all."

when I hear this awful term 'social-justice', I want to reach for my pistol.
It is completely meaningless, and why are the labour party always needing to 'rediscover' it?
33

Alan Reid,

NZ 29/08/2008 03:26:39
8/10, you need to vist your kitty litter tray.
34

Alan Reid,

NZ 29/08/2008 03:30:17
F,A,O.: 8/10 halfwits prefer Labour.

1)it was brown that said on tv that he would not work with the scottish government.
2)it was brown who the media say will not return Salmonds calls
3)it was brown that did not congratulate Salmond on his vicotry last yr until embarrassed by the media. Blair did not at all.
4)it is brown who has tried to scupper the LIT policy of the snp, rather than leaving it to be argued out in holyrood.
a) disgracefully trying to withhold scotlands money through the council tax rebate.
b)and used the treasury to declare the policy illegal when it is the remit of the preciding officer to do so.
5) it brown who would not compensate our farmers while compensating english farmers
6)it was brown who delivered the lowest increase in the scottish block grant since the start of the parliament (many think as a punishment for voting snp)
7)it was brown who is try to not pass on the consequentials to the scottish parliament as a result of spending on english prisions.

Serious where exactly has Salmond tried to pick a fight. We should expect politicians of different parties to have different views and policies. We should expect them to let the people decide. And we expect them to work together to this end.
35

Alan Reid,

NZ 29/08/2008 03:38:18
8/10 retarded cats prefer:

Have a look below, and ask yourself why is Scotland NOT allowed to have control over these issues???
What is wrong with Scotland running it's own affairs?
I await your answer.

The Constitution
Political parties
Foreign affairs
Public service
Defence
Fiscal, economic and monetary policy
Misuse of drugs
Data protection
Elections
Firearms
Entertainment
Immigration and nationality
Scientific procedures on live animals
National security, interception of communications, official secrets and terrorism
Betting, gaming and lotteries
Emergency powers
Extradition
Lieutenancies
Business associations
Insolvency
Competition
Intellectual property
Import and export control
Sea fishing
Consumer protection
Product standards, safety and liability
Weights and measures
Telecommunications and wireless telegraphy
Post Office, posts and postal services
Research Councils
Designation of assisted areas
Industrial Development Advisory Board
Protection of trading and economic interests
Electricity
Oil and gas
Nuclear energy
Energy conservation
Road transport
Rail transport
Marine transport
Air transport
36

Embra Don,

29/08/2008 03:45:12
C'mon cats! Just ONE positive Labour policy - not asking much is it?
37

Embra Don,

29/08/2008 03:49:06
Keep the CT maybe? Bring on a referendum? Replace trident? There must be one you can pick? Team GB football squad for the Olympics? Bomb Russia?
38

Embra Don,

29/08/2008 03:50:30
Imagine I'm a floating voter - persuade me.
39

tommy M,

29/08/2008 07:29:17
Salmond is not the one inviting Thatcher to tea.
40

gus1940,

Edinburgh 29/08/2008 08:02:41
Is there any truth in the rumour that The 3 Stooges will shortly be appearing in Glenrothes?
41

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 29/08/2008 08:04:09
#42 What? Federation, not separation, you say? Why on Earth didn't you mention this to us before?

You've got a cheek accusing the SNP of having only one policy...
42

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29/08/2008 08:15:11
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43

Galalean,

Mission 29/08/2008 08:21:09
If the Scots keep whining about Brown & his government Mr. Bush may come & free you, or maybe he will just send Trump.
44

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 29/08/2008 08:34:20
According to the IMF, the UK is now the fifth largest economy, after slipping well behind China.

In the next decade, it is expected that China, India,
Singapore, and many other emerging new economies are expected to overtake the UK in both GDP and GNP rates!

According to the IMF, in the past 10 years Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Ireland, Canada, China, Russia, India, and many of the former Soviet republics, including the 3 Baltic States, and the Czech Republic and Slovakia, have all exceeded the U.K.'s average 3 percent growth rate per year.

However, the greatest example of a successful "independent nation" is the former British colony of the USA, the world's only economic, political and military superpower!


Ireland, Norway, Rissia, and India have economic growth rates that a UK Chancellor would die for!

45

Linda,

Edinburgh 29/08/2008 08:40:25
Should read Peter Jones in Business Section on More Tax Powers for devolution.

But didn't see any reference in Herald or Scotsman to-day that Hendersons became the third large UK company this year to move to Ireland to benefit from lower Corporation tax .

Yet we are told by Unionists that Ireland was now a basket case and not a good as UK at riding out recession.
46

Boy Wonder,

29/08/2008 08:42:22
#9. She's having a hard time with constant abscondee, Chuckles Linskaill.
47

Mikey,

29/08/2008 08:44:02
Major parties in Scotland and their policies;

SNP: To otland join the world's independent nations and thereby regain it's self respect.

Tories: To grant the SP more powers but still keep it ruled from England.

Liebaah: Just lemme phone London and see whit the policy is the day.

Lib Dum: Whatever Liebaah wants as long as they don't tax sandals and beards.

I think that about sums it up!
48

Robbie 2,

New Zealand 29/08/2008 08:54:08
42 Rulesbutnotrulers, - you claim:
“Many independent nations fail miserably…”
Where did you get that information?
A very sad aspect of the Scottish media and many posters is to make spurious statements or unsubstantiated claims. In all respectable written correspondence it is imperative that citations are given to prove the veracity of a major statement
Please Rulesbutnotrulers name even some failed Western independent nations. Then compare the quality of life in small sovereign nations (they have been so often listed)with large countries such as China, India, Indonesia, Russia, Brazil; even the USA and the UK do not compare in quality of life to so many smaller independent western nations. (Economic magazine list of ‘Quality of Life' - happy to look out actual dates and correct citation as I have before)
49

Linda,

Edinburgh 29/08/2008 09:19:09
English donations keep Scottish Labour afloat. Of the £41,213 reported in last 3 months for Labour in Scotland (There is no Scottish Labour party) all of it, except for £1340 donation from Dundee Councillors to shore up Dundee East, was received from Unions or other organisations with English addresses.

Add to that the Newcastle Call Centre and Direct Mailing from Cramlington then "Scottish" Labour are the buggest subsidy junkies North of the Border.
50

watcher4,

Edinburgh 29/08/2008 09:23:19
You can`t help talking about mr. Smug. Salmond has broken that many promises, Police, Quango`s, the Council Tax, the list is endless. Why would we wan`t to forget the Thatcher of Scotland.
51

Calum10,

29/08/2008 09:30:41
This Labour leadership battle has been reduced to a SNP-HATE-FEST.

We know a lot about what Gray, Kerr and Jamieson detest about Alex Salmond and the SNP government by the amount space given to them in the Hootsmon, but no one has any idea what these three contenders believe in or what they will stand up for.

As for leadership qualities we can conclude that nothing has been revealed that we didn't know before. Gray is a charisma free zone, Kerr is completely untrustworthy, and Jamieson is that moaning wee wifie in the Bingo queue.
52

Robbie 2,

New Zealand 29/08/2008 09:35:16
49 sm753, “Well since you're in NZ, why don't the North and South Islands declare independence from each other and run all these things separately?”
NZ choose to be independent of Australia (if not we would now be involved in Iraq and not be able to choose to be nuclear free or our own destiny). New Zealanders (or Kiwis) have from the far north to Invercargill and Stewart Island in the south always considered themselves as belonging to one nation, and are internationally accepted as such (as are Americans). Historically the has been a international perception that England and the UK are synonymous (check any history book - it is England this, the island of England - and Scotland has so often by historians and overseas politicians (even your European partners) been ignored or at least its place in the UK misunderstood. If a similar perception had happened here eg., if people had talked about the ‘North Island as representing all of New Zealand or that there was just one island of New Zealand - then there would most likely have been a more rigorous movement or political party for the South Island being a separate sovereign state. Also the quality and standard of life even the way of speaking is homogeneous through out the country - the differences within NZ and the understanding between NZers is not at all like the differences within the UK and the understanding between different parts of Britain. New Zealand inherited great problems from its colonial past such as the appropriation of Maori land - which all political parties and virtually all NZers are been intent to rectify at the cost of millions of dollars. NZ lost it’s greatest market when the UK decided to join Europe - and did we have some ‘gloom and doom’ merchants (you all know the type you have plenty in Scotia, “we cannae dae it ourselves we huv tae be grateful tae takin money frae the English tax payers) But NZ found and developed new markets and like EVERY nation we have problems but as a people ma
53

Robbie 2,

NZ cont 29/08/2008 09:36:26
NZ found and developed new markets and like EVERY nation we have problems but as a people make our own decisions and endeavour to forge our own destiny.

54

Foresight,

By the Water of Leith 29/08/2008 09:37:31

The question is not about political parties (after all they all lie through their teeth) bur about the willingness of the SCOTTISH NATION to rise to the challenge of INDEPENDENCE. We are a NATION and in a democracy deserve the right of self determination. However in a nation feather bedded with government handouts in one form or another the question will always remain as to whether the SCOTTISH NATION is truly prepared to stand on its own two feet, go it alone and not be bought off by English gold. I for one would relish the challenge.
55

Senga Jean,

29/08/2008 09:43:34
~56 You score "Pants on Fire" in the "truth-o-meter" (Ack CNN) The SNP put Scotland first Labour..same old...same old.
56

Linda,

Edinburgh 29/08/2008 09:54:09
Now, even in the Olympics, we can see how badly Scotland does in terms of sheer poverty of representation.

Just look at these population figures and the number of athletes that countries have sent to the Beijing Games in 2008.

Country Population Athletes

Iceland 0.3 million 28
Estonia 1.3 million 49
Slovenia 2.0 million 62
Latvia 2.3 million 50
Lithuania 3.4 million 76
New Zealand 3.9 million 209
Ireland 4.0 million 56
Norway 4.6 million 92
Finland 5.2 million 69
Denmark 5.4 million 87
Slovakia 5.4 million 58

Scotland 5.2 million 26

So Scotland is 17 times the size of Iceland, yet sends fewer athletes to the Olympics.

We’re almost four times bigger than little Estonia, yet they send almost twice the number we do.

We’re two-and-a-half times bigger than Slovenia, yet they send two-and-a-half times the number of athletes we do.

In fact, per head of population, Scotland is far and away the worst represented of the smaller European countries.

Once again, that’s the ‘Union squeeze’ at work.

57

Finnz,

29/08/2008 10:04:33
These three candidates appear to be rooted to the spot like sheep being dazzled by the glare of Salmonds aura.
And like sheep, they haven't got an original thought amongst them.
They bleat about the need to 'reassert Labour values of fairness, social justice and opportunity for all'. Aye just tell that to the voters of Glasgow east who have been let down time and again by this 'caring' party and are now fully aware of what Labour values really entail. Lies and thievery.
It is now obvious that every time one of these contenders opens their mouths to vent their spleen at the 'unfairness' of their situation (ie not being in power anymore) their suitability to hold on to any government position becomes demonstratably more laughable.
58

Darien,

Panama 29/08/2008 10:23:53
#62 and other Unionist/BritNats: Differentiation in politics is key. Any Unionist/BritNat party in power in Edinburgh is always going to act puppet/Quisling-like as far as Big Brother Westmonster is concerned. Any SNP Government in Edinburgh is not. This very obvious and clear differentiation between the options is something the ordinary punter can identify with. Straight choice now for everyone - Puppet Government or Real Government. (mmmm...let me think...)
59

Benarty,

Fife 29/08/2008 11:25:21
The SNP at Local Government level is busy eroding Labour policies. Here in Fife, I know that my mum now has to pay for her community alarm. Her carers have less time to spend with ech of their elederly patients, and have to leave them and move on even is they are in distress - eg through alzheimers.

The new schools building programme has lost momentum. Bus routes are being axed unopposed by the council as whole. Nearly half the public toilets in the county have been closed or are set to close. My niece plays in the Fife Youth Orchestra - music funding in schools has been cut.

Labour's policies were, and are, about providing public services free at the point of use to the people who need them. About representing the people in the chamber of the elected body be it council or parliament - rather than representing the elected body to the people.

Here's some of the things Labour DID do in Local, Scottish, and UK government:

Built 2 new schools every week in Scotland
Introduced free nursery provsion for pre school children all over Scotland
Banned smoking in public places
Introduced free community alarm schemes in councils they controlled
Brought in free personal care for the elderly
Free bus passes for the elderly
Supported the development of renewable technologies - unlike in SNP controlled areas
Campaigned for and helped secure the Rosyth - Zebrugge ferry
Established a Co-operative development agency
Demolished poor post war housing and built new rented sector houses in places like Easterhouse in Glasgow, and Abbeyview in Dunfermline
Allocated houses to scottish soldiers, sailors and air personnell on leaving the service
Introduced and delivered on insulation and central heating schemes
Virtually eliminated rough sleeping in Scotland's towns and cities
Introduced pilot Domestic Abuse Courts, and funded provision across Scotland for children and young people experiencing domestic abuse

I don't work for the Labour Party, I'm not a councill
60

Embra Don,

29/08/2008 12:20:43
#71 danielrober

Renewable energy development (we have the best resources in Europe)

Replacing and upgrading our transport infrastructure

Developing "clean" oil, gas and coal technology - we have huge riches in all of these resources.

We will still need navy, army and air force to defend us and will be able to concentrate on that rather than "projecting coercion" with Trident and Aircraft Carriers. i.e. real defence rather than state terrorism.
61

Embra Don,

29/08/2008 12:28:04
#73

At last a positive post in support of Labour. I would take issue with some of it, if I had time, but at least its a step in the right direction. Just think how much better they could have done if they had been free of head office restriction.
62

Darien,

Panama 29/08/2008 12:36:38
#71 Danielrober - The Scots would prefer to see Scotland building for trade and peace, not for aggression, war and destruction. A dominant concentration in any economy on war production reflects an outdated empire mindset. The new Scotland will have a rather different emphasis thank you very much. Alex Salmond has already stated his desire for Scotland to work together with all other nations for peace. That is a totally different mindset from the typical UK approach. And onother very attractive differentiation factor for the Scots electorate to think about. An Independent Scotland would develop a respected role in international diplomacy.
63

Calum Crubag,

29/08/2008 12:42:26
All Labour can do is talk about Salmond - bitter sniping non-stop. They know they failed in the past decade and have nothing new to offer.

Adios to the union.
64

Arfur,

29/08/2008 12:57:33
Stop talking about Alex Salmond and consentrate on policies????........you can't ask them to do that, it will just confuse them even more - seeing as Scottish Labours one and only policy at this time is to attack Alex Salmond and the SNP about absolutly everything (I mean forget about the fact that it is for the good of Scotland and all that...attack).
65

lulach mac gille coemgain,

29/08/2008 13:20:27
Good to see everybody talking about Alex on the comment board - seems everyone just can’t help themselves !

Hee Hee !

C’mon Scotland ! Today our Country - Tomorrow the World Cup !
66

Gere,

Scotland 29/08/2008 13:23:26
Freedom for Scotland!!!!!
67

Armstrong Cowan Again,

Secret -having escaped Glasgow's one party State 29/08/2008 14:07:24
It's time to reassert Labour values of fairness, social justice and opportunity for all."


Sorry as far as I know these are standard conservative values - infact they are universal values backed no doubt by the SNP and the Liberals.

Labour for me means old fashioned, chip on the shoulder, envy , what's in it for me, graft, corruption, we tell you what to do , nannie state, interference, wasted resources, zero initiative, blame it on everybody else, shirk from responsibilty.

oh let's have 'labour values for another n years in Scotland. goodbye labour you are about to disappear
68

Darien,

Panama 29/08/2008 14:15:28
#84 danielrober "So Alec.S is going for a strange mix of thatcherisum and international socialisum. Funny thing is both failed to deliver jobs."

Aye, and with Team GB unemployment heading for 2 million, you can add Comrade Broon to that list.

Aside from this you seem to have completely missed the point I made so I will restate:
"The Scots would prefer to see Scotland building for trade and peace, not for aggression, war and destruction. A dominant concentration in any economy on war production reflects an outdated empire mindset. The new Scotland will have a rather different emphasis thank you very much. Alex Salmond has already stated his desire for Scotland to work together with all other nations for peace. That is a totally different mindset from the typical UK approach. And onother very attractive differentiation factor for the Scots electorate to think about. An Independent Scotland would develop a respected role in international diplomacy."

69

wattie>x 1,

PLYMOUTH 29/08/2008 14:34:07
Any person, with a legitimate question off opposition to offer oo the lying, corrupt New Labour Party *purveyors of social and economic destruction that " they have inflicted on the dis-united UK since 1997, would find it easier, to enter Fort Knox (or,maybe the Kingdom of Heaven") than get admission into one off New Labour's carefully stage managed and rigidly controlled so-called publiic meetings !
70

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29/08/2008 14:40:32
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71

Greatscot....,

London 29/08/2008 14:46:19
I am completely baffled by the attitude of most of the posters on here. Many are of the belief that Labour are somehow an English and therefore Unionist creation. Please. From the rest of the world's perspective, Labour are almost a 100% Scottish invention. Its the Scots who invented Labour and have foisted them on the rest of the UK for the better part of the last 60 years. And the SNP? Just another Labour party but this time with a kilt.

These must be the most juvenile posts of any newspaper in any country on Earth. Please. Do Scotland a favour and stop talking utter tosh. The vast majority of Scots want to stay in the Union. Respect their wishes.
72

WHISTLEBLOWER,

gdgdg 29/08/2008 15:03:20
How are they supposed to provide an effective opposition without mentioning the Government?

The mind boggles.
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29/08/2008 15:03:41
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74

Saruman,

29/08/2008 15:31:55
#91: he is something else! Just hope for the sake of you devoted Nats that he doesn't decide to retire from leadership again any time soon.
75

Armstrong Cowan Again,

Out of voting range 29/08/2008 15:50:03
# Great Scot

"These must be the most juvenile posts of any newspaper in any country on Earth. Please. Do Scotland a favour and stop talking utter tosh. The vast majority of Scots want to stay in the Union. Respect their wishes."

Yes- but it is a lot of fun and Yes,at the moment polls may indicate this to be so - However let the debate continue and in due course we shall see what the majority want in Scotland. One common theme is the resentment of many folk in Scotland whether left, right or in the middle to the abysmal record of Labour since the war.
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29/08/2008 15:57:42
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29/08/2008 16:18:59
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29/08/2008 16:19:24
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29/08/2008 16:19:44
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Shredder,

29/08/2008 17:04:39
#101: but that would be on the basis of the Nats' rigged question, n'est-ce pas? No one believes all the tosh about how it is so phrased for legal reasons, btw.
81

FrancesP,

29/08/2008 17:11:03
102. "but that would be on the basis of the Nats' rigged question, n'est-ce pas?"

That is categorically NOT the case. If you go to YouGov's site, you'll see that the question they use bears no resemblance to the one the SNP propose to ask - in fact you and AM2 would be proud of it, because it uses ridiculously biased language like 'separation'. No surprise that the wording was devised by Anthony King, who for years has staked his reputation on his dubious analysis that devolution would make independence less likely. Now he's (perhaps, to be fair, unconsciously) skewing the polls to try and make his prediction come true!
82

Shredder,

29/08/2008 17:18:40
#103: if no third option of giving more power to the SP was included, then it's not very impressive if that's the most support for separation after the Nats have supposedly been playing a "blinder" in the SP.

83

FrancesP,

29/08/2008 17:30:10
104. Au contraire, if 'separation' is such a scary concept (and the unionist parties obviously believe it is otherwise they wouldn't keep banging on about it) it's truly remarkable that as many as 36% of the public declare themselves to be in favour of it. But whatever YouGov and Anthony King think, it's highly improbable that such a blatantly biased word would ever make the ballot paper, even if the SNP were forced to compromise on the wording. The more neutral wording of the System 3 polls offers a far better guide, and they've put support and opposition to independence at level pegging for several months now.

Note to YouGov - however scrupulous your sampling methodology, your polls on independence will only be credible when they're devised by someone neutral - ie. someone who's not got a vested interest in trying to make the facts fit his own personal analysis.
84

brusque,

29/08/2008 17:52:17

73 Benarty..

""Here's some of the things Labour DID do in Local, Scottish, and UK government:""

Built 2 new schools every week in Scotland......


That would be 104 schools a year, and 832 new schools built over Labour's most recent period in Government??

Surely that statement was something of a slip of the "finger"?

However, as someone else has already pointed out, the list you typed is woefully short when you consider the number of years they were in Government!!

"Virtually eliminated rough sleeping in Scotland's towns and cities" That may be the case where you live, but it is most definitely the case across Scotland - and furthermore, the Labour run Council withdrew the funding from the Homeless Shelter Project, which was staffed entirely by volunteers.

Labour have been a scourge in Scotland, between bent Councillors, doing dodgy land deals, and Labour MPs claiming expenses the equivalent of the cost of running a small country - and then going on the sick when they get found out, Scotland is not willing to put up with it any longer.

They are finished in Scotland, they just don't know how to make a graceful exit, so they will go out scrapping like wild pigs at a trough.

A fitting description.


85

Benarty,

Fife 29/08/2008 18:00:02
Right now, 8 out of every £10 in a Scottish family's budget is spent in UK owned businesses. In a Scotland which is not part of the UK, 8 out of every £10 will be spent with a foreign owned business. How will that make Scots more independent?

If 60%, or 70% of Scots vote for separation in the referendum, and if the UK is disolved, what will be done to safeguard the rights of the substantial minority who are currently as proud to be British as they are to be Scottish? For my part, I would feel as though part of my identity had been severed.

Does nobody have the courage to consider the possiblities for a truly Federal Britain, in which Scotland, Ireland and Wales would be real partners, with genuine devolution of power from the centre to the smallest community wherever possible?

I'm not afraid of independence. I am very afraid of parochial centralisation, and economic dependance on big global corporations.
86

Team Scotland,

FC UK No! 29/08/2008 18:06:20
#90 Greatscot....,London

Your bafflement comes from a lack of knowledge and understanding of the subject. Firstly, whether an organization has its origins in England, Scotland, or elsewhere does not determine whether it is unionist. The clue is when Labour politicians say things like ‘I am a unionist’.

While discussions on the origins of the Labour party may be all the rage around the world, that would not make them correct. Labour's origins are, as for the SNP, in fact in the Liberal Party.

The principal precursors of the Labour party are -

The Fabian Society, founded in London in 1884.

The Labour Representation League, founded in London in 1869, by Londoner John Stuart Mill.

The TUC, founded Manchester 1868.

The Social Democratic Federation, founded in London in 1881.

The Scottish Labour Party was founded in 1888 by Robert Cunninghame-Graham and Kier Hardie. The party did not last and Cunninghame-Graham went on ultimately to form the Scottish National Party (I do not think he wore a kilt). Kier Hardie left to join a new Liberal offshoot the ILP in 1893.

The Independent Labour Party was founded in Bradford 1893.

Perhaps when browsing the comments from the international press you might stop to think that you may be spreading yourself a bit thin. If you concentrate your energy nearer to home you will have a deeper and more useful knowledge than you currently display.

In the meantime the people of Scotland are currently debating whether Scotland should or should not remain in the UK. When we have come to a conclusion on this matter, we will be sure to let you know. With all due respect.
87

morris,

edinburgh 29/08/2008 18:41:38
101
Hawkeye the Noo,
29/08/2008 16:28:06

Very much so!
Why Unionists persist with this claim, when its obvious that we cannot possibly know what the true figure is since nobody ever unambiguously measured it before in a referendum, is mystifying.
(Plus it changes constantly presumably).

Its so obviously contrived that you wonder what possible purpose claiming that which cannot be substantiated serves ?It can of course be discredited with ease !
That is why we are measuring it!


Your conclusion that the figure would rise after the Tory government has been elected is a racing certainty, but what a pity we have to go there before we know it exists!
I have always said that the Labour supporters are like the people who stands at the bus stop, but the only way they ever know that there is a bus coming, is when it runs them over!

READ THE TIMETABLE! BETTER STILL .........LOOK!

Well said Hawkeye,but you are obviously correct of course!You couldn't be anything else!
88

Richardinho,

29/08/2008 18:48:13
'How are they supposed to provide an effective opposition without mentioning the Government?
'

If only the labour party did provide effective opposition!
You only need to think back to the budget, when the labour party ended up abstaining on their own amendment, for an example of their dismal efforts.

They should perhaps look to the conservative party and even the liberals who despite numerous failings have still made a far better job of it than they have. These two parties at least seem to have understood that in a proportionally elected parliament the smaller parties can actually wield considerable power by working with other parties to reach a consensus.

Labour, on the other hand ,with their near constant wrecking attempts directed from Westminster have only succeeded in isolating themselves within Holyrood and have rendered themselves virtually powerless.
89

Benarty,

Fife 29/08/2008 19:08:18
106, no, I did not say building 2 schools a week was what Labour did over the entire period they were in government. But it is what they were doing at the time of the last Scottish Parliament elections.

My list is a personal one, not one 've spent hours thinking about. I know what happens in Fife, because it's my home. So I know about the benefits my mum received free, and for which she now has to pay.
I know about Scottish soldiers and housing them when they leave the army because I have been a Scottish soldier. And I know that my personal list is what I have time to type during a day in which I am not employed as a councillor, and MSP, and MP, a researcher or assistant or adviser to any of the above.

Most politicians of all parties don't have their noses in the trough. Most go into politics because they want to make things better. Right now, politicians of all parties are so bitter about each other that the SNP cannot acknowlege anything good about Labour, and Labour cannot support policies the SNP is carrying forward which would have been Labour policies if that party had won the Scottish parliamentary elections.

It's corrosive, it's negative, it's dispiriting, and it will have to be healed if a post referendum Scotland is to be fit for human habitation of whatever nationality.



90

morris,

edinburgh 29/08/2008 19:37:27
109
fascinating insight into KH and RCG .

I thought I would add a few snippets which I have picked up over the years(assuming that I have remembered accurately of course).

Keir Hardie (a former Scottish miner)was of course CHAIRMAN of the ILP.
He did a bit more than "joined", but I get your drift.
He was also a founder of the Scottish Home Rule Association with his friend Robert Cunningham Graham.
RCG was elected as a Liberal in 1886(Lanarkshire NW)on a very very radical manifesto which would put the Labour party to shame!
I think it speaks volumes that co founder Robert Cunningham Graham ,went on to found the NPS (National Party of Scotland) which amalgamated later with the Scottish Party (I think) and the SNP was born.


He is probably best remembered as the Liberal MP who tried to push home rule constantly and once he was quoted as saying he preffered to see taxes wasted in Edinburgh rather than in London! The man was clairvoyant obviously!

Although a convert to socialism,he was in fact born Robert Bontine, son of a Major and grandson of an Admiral and was from a wealthy Perthshire background and even went to Harrow.

I also find it interesting that "Hugh McDiarmid" was also involved and he had been a friend of John Maclean who whilst a Marxist certainly,was definitely also a man who favoured independence and once stated that he could never support any organisation which sought to operate in Scotland whilst headquartered out with.
That sounds pretty nationalist to me!
The Union has survived but it has had many who sought its abolition over many years.
Perhaps we are privileged to witness these notable Scots ambitions come to fruition ?
I HOPE SO!
91

whitegold,

Shire 29/08/2008 19:37:32
Interesting comment about Labour.

The reality is that Labour have nothing to say. They have no positive policies, are serially incompetent, and have a proven track record of failing to do anything constructive.

Labour appeals to halfwits who have a chip on their shoulder about something. See their recent campaign which centered on calling someone a 'toff'. Really grown up and constructive! Then the £5000 extra tax lies during the election. No policies, no constructiveness - a big fat zero.
92

Conan the Librarian™,

29/08/2008 19:41:19
97
Called Whiskas a naughty word.By the way, what do you feed your cat?
93

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 29/08/2008 19:59:28
#112

“Right now, politicians of all parties are so bitter about each other that the SNP cannot acknowlege anything good about Labour, and Labour cannot support policies the SNP is carrying forward which would have been Labour policies if that party had won the Scottish parliamentary elections.”

Oh really?

Which of the SNP policy initiatives does your hours of contemplation lead you to believe that the Labour Party would have introduced had they won the Scottish general election?

Would they have frozen council tax, and moved towards a fairer, based upon the ability to pay, local income tax?

Would they have saved the local A&E hospitals in Ayr and Monklands?

Would they have saved the Crichton University Campus in Dumfries?

Would they have abolished bridge tolls?

Would they have introduced the prospect of RET for travel to the Outer Islands?

Would they have fought for every penny of taxation being raised in Scotland being spent in Scotland?

Would they have favoured a future energy policy based upon renewable sources as opposed to nuclear?

Would they have been opposed to the morally corrupt and illegal wars?

Would they oppose the obscene investment in Son-of-Trident?

Would they wish to continue their previous policy of lack of investment in social housing?

I have only just begun.
94

morris,

edinburgh 29/08/2008 20:20:04
112


To suggest that Labour would support policies in government which they oppose in opposition is just plain barking.They do what they are told by Head Office,and that will never change.What point there is in voting for a bunch of subserviant muppets escapes increasingly more of us!
Devolution means they decide here in Scotland!

If there were even a possibility of this being true HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THEIR EIGHT YEARS IN GOVERNMENT at Holyrood when they managed to do less than was previously achieved by a single Scottish Secretary and just repeated the Westminster instructed line.

I doubt that your claim is even plausible never mind accurate!
95

Benarty,

Fife 29/08/2008 20:35:22
Yes to three of your rhetorical questions. Unfortunately, I admit no to another two - Trident and Iraq. And on the rest, I just don't agree with the premis of your questions.

But I do note the bitter and embittered tones in which posters on these sites seem to answer anybody who attempts to join the discussion. No wonder few bother to put themselves up to be bullied.
96

Benarty,

Fife 29/08/2008 20:36:55
Yes to three of your rhetorical questions. Unfortunately, I admit no to another two - Trident and Iraq. And on the rest, I just don't agree with the premis of your questions.

But I do note the bitter and embittered tones in which posters on these sites seem to answer anybody who attempts to join the discussion. No wonder few bother to put themselves up to be bullied.
97

Conan the Librarian™,

29/08/2008 20:45:56
112
Good post Benarty.

Except; The guid people of Fife can now travel directly to Edinburgh without paying tolls, their council tax is frozen, and they may get a visit from Gordon around October/November.

Where is the nearist dole office to the North Ferry, by the way?
98

Benarty,

Fife 29/08/2008 20:46:05
Hen Broon
Do you mean that Scotland would stil be part of the UK if it became independent? Would I be Scottish, or British, or both? Would I have representation on subjects like immigration or foreign affairs fr the whole of mainland Britain, or just for the bit covered by Scotland's boundaries? Would there be a British Army with Scottish regiments and with Scots serving in te corps and servies as we have at present, or would it be like being part of a Nato or UN force? Who would be in overall command?

I really do want to know, because I don't understand what is meant by Independent if it doesn't also mean separate. If it doesn't, how is it different from Devolved
99

Benarty,

Fife 29/08/2008 20:57:08
Conan

I used to go to Edinburgh for work daiy on the Park and Ride, so can't say the tolls was a problem for me. But I do know that Scottish labour DID pledge to remove the tolls prior to the election, unless the local paper got it wrong.

The nearest buroo to North Ferry is beyond my ken - I don't know if you can still sign at Inverkeithing. Cowdenbeath is my local.

And the freezing of the council tax is the reason the SNP administration is Fife is having to charge old folk for alarms, close lavvies, and stop funding music in schools so that only the better off kids can get instrumental tuition. Also, it's why the housing department, the crematoriaum, and the schools were closed for a day last week. Again, I know from experience
100

Conan the Librarian™,

29/08/2008 21:00:37
123
Benarty.

A nice list of questions.

There will be two successor states, Scotland was in theory an equal partner.

That means of all assets abroad, Scotland WILL have a chunk.And that means Embassies and their contents.

As for the Armed Forces, it would depend if Scotland wished to stay part of NATO or not.

If not, well THAT is a can of worms.
101

Conan the Librarian™,

29/08/2008 21:14:52
124
They were closed because they were on strike Benarty.
I know, I speak from experience.

And we were on strike because?

The so called socialist government, sorry, they like the term executive.
Did. Not. Implement. An equal pay directive.

When forced to, they went off at a tangent and tried to cut the slightly higher paid workers salary to pay for the long overdue rise.

In an "All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others kind of way."
102

morris,

edinburgh 29/08/2008 21:15:24
Scotland would still be part of the EU and therefore precious little would change bearing in mind that everything currently belonging to the UK (and approx 9% of everything is therefore paid for by Scottish taxpayers), rightfully Scotland would have claim to part of it.We would also inherit the same percentage of any debts etc presumably. Not much would change really and since we would still be an island,areas of co operation such as a common defence policy(which has always been the SNPs intention) would presumably be agreeable to our southern neighbour also.

We leave the UK, but remain in the EU,which really means that changes will be an internal matter only,and the change minimal.
The EU have confirmed that they have no interest really,and assume that we all retain membership and its inconceivable that the terms will be less favourable than currently. The EU senior office bearers have said many times over many years now,that they see no problem whatsoever.

It is to England/Rest of the former UKs benefit to get on with us, as much as it is ours.
The two countries/states would be in an identical situation.Both would be former members of the UK of GB and NI (which presumably will be renamed in some way since it can no longer exist as such presumably).
Scotland will be Scotland. What England Wales and Northern Ireland will be called is their decision to make when it happens.
The word separation infers isolation.Nothing could be more inaccurate!We will be an independent nation,equal in stature to all others.
We are still in the European Union and Gretna and Carlisle will still be a few miles apart.

Norway and Sweden have done this very successfully since they became independent.I can see no reason why we should be any different?
103

Darien,

Panama 29/08/2008 21:23:43
#123 Benarty: No need to get uptight on this. Try the Isle of Man for comparison. Its an independent nation with, I believe, one of the oldest parliaments in the world (Tynwald). Its not even in the EU (but plays by the rules, a la Norway). It has a very healthy economy, despite (or in spite of) not being a part of the UK!

#124 Benarty: One major difficulty for politicians of all parties when it comes to policy implementation is the incompetence of civil servants. Politicians don't always get their way, and civil servants have their own pet project disasters (e.g. CalMac, Scotrail, Holyrood building, several massive cost overruns on rail projects etc etc). Difference is the civil servants get moved sideways or even get promotion when they make a mess of things, whereas at least we have a chance of getting rid of a politician every now and then. Politicians like to think they run things, but they don't really (as in Yes Minister!).
104

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 29/08/2008 21:52:51
Ms Jamieson said:
"It's time to reassert Labour values of fairness, social justice and opportunity for all."

This is exactly what WENDY said last year.

SSDD.

105

Conan the Librarian™,

29/08/2008 22:16:10
131
Good Evening Dan.

As you may remember, I was made redundant twice in the Thatcher period.

I was bringing up a young family at the time.

I wish I had an SNP support club then.

Ps, It woz Thatcher that destroyed engineering in this country Guv'ner.

Spare a penny for an ex engineer, (hops about).
106

Robbie 2,

New Zealnd 29/08/2008 22:19:56
71 danielrober, 29/08/2008 10:50:20
“…… engineers have real questions. Mainly about where work will come from.”?
“…..after three huge employers have gone, where will the jobs come from.”……?
“….when many of the current contracts, from the Blair years, run out. What then?

Daniel - what do other energetic sovereign countries do?
When NZ lost it’s greatest market when the UK decided to join Europe - we had the “We’re all doomed - doomed - Ah tell ye”
But New Zealanders went out, struggled, found and developed new markets. Just look where NZ is situated thousands of kilometres from those teeming prosperous European markets and Scotland has them at its doorsteps. Honestly those Scottish gloom and doom merchants ought to be ashamed - having so little faith in Scottish enterprise. Don’t wait wailing on jobs from London. Independence is normal in this world - stand up think, work and forge your own destiny and prosperity.
107

Benarty,

Fife 29/08/2008 22:25:36
Thanks for the answers to my questions. I still don't understand the difference between separation and independence, because I was not asking about who owns what and how it will be divided. Rather I was asking about what, if anything, we will still share with England, Wales, and Northern Ireland. I do "get it" about Europe, having spent ages thinking about "shared sovereignty" and "subsidiarity" in that context.

On the subject of free instrumental tuition, my niece got it free until a few months ago, because there were grants for people on low incomes.It is those which have been scrapped. This is not a Party Political Point - although it began as part of an answer to someone who asked what Labour had ever done for anybody in Scotland, an I know I myself had advantages in Fife as a child which cousins in Perthsire didn't.I think all kids, regardless of who runs a council, and what their parents earn, should have free musical education. And if they are comitted enough to be in a youth orchestra, or the Scottish Youth Theatre, that should be free too.

108

Darien,

Panama 29/08/2008 22:25:47
#131 - danielrober: "I see that when the SNP are asked questions about jobs and industry, they run away with their mutal support club."

Job impacts from government expenditure on military weapon systems and products are actually very limited compared with the same spend on products and services the economy actually needs and uses (e.g. housing, schools, hospitals, elderly care homes, asylums, prisons, transport infras, sports/leisure centres etc etc etc etc). I would estimate a ratio of at least 10:1, but probably a lot more; i.e. for every 1 job created in the weapon systems/WMD/killing industry, the same gov expenditure could create 10 or more jobs in the 'normal' public sector economy. What you appear to be defending is the fact that UK defence contracts are a nice little earner in a protected market for a select few corporations some of whom support successive Westminster administrations. But in fact the ratio of each £ spent per job created in the defence sector is poor, very poor indeed. That is aside from wasting a great deal of money on weapons we do not use, and/or should not be using. The cost to the economy and society of this strategy, which you support, is immeasurable.
109

Conan the Librarian™,

29/08/2008 22:29:25
133
Indeed Robbie.

When WWII came along an NZ light engineering firm that made vacuum cleaners turned its hand to machine guns.

They didn't suck;-)
110

Robbie 2,

New Zealand 29/08/2008 22:42:03
90 Greatscot....,London 29/08/2008 14:46:19
“These must be the most juvenile posts of any newspaper in any country on Earth. Please. Do Scotland a favour and stop talking utter tosh. ”
One thing we can say about the these forums is one can post on them even tosh.
Try posting on the UK national papers or the BBC - it is so heavily moderated that many forums show no comments even when umpteen quite reasonable arguments (albeit against) are posted. There is no free debate as there is in the Scotsman or Herald.
As for - “The vast majority of Scots want to stay in the Union. Respect their wishes.”
Most Catholics, Muslims and Protestants want to stay as the were raised because that is what they were led to believe is correct. If for 300 years a Scot is taught (brainwashed?) about the glories of Britain and the British Empire and almost every history book recounts the benefits of London rule and every newspaper derides sovereignty and self-determination, (often by the use of spurious assertions) of course like the religious they will struggle to believe or to even examine another view. If more Scots looked towards the example of all the small prosperous western nations and followed their story in history (most managing to break away fro a centralised power or union) then at least they could consider the possibilities of independence with out the constant ridicule and mischievous anti-independent coverage and ‘reporting?’ of the media.
111

Conan the Librarian™,

29/08/2008 23:00:21
139
Dan
Where do I start?

How many engineering contracts start with a government?

Look at all the contracts which have been given to London in the past twenty years, then compare it with Scotland.
112

Robbie 2,

New Zealand 29/08/2008 23:11:17
139 danielrober, 29/08/2008 22:42:08
“Then what we send each other hate mail.” Impossible as I won’t ever get involved in that exercise.
Can’t carry on now as it’s a beautiful spring day here and we’re off to the markets so forgive any typos as I’m being paged.
I don’t espouse independence just as a Scot but as a believer that all small nations should be sovereign, including of course New Zealand With a larger land mass than the UK and a smaller population and the huge distances to our markets (no land routes) with the huge cost of infrastructure, roading free healthcare better pensions education and sending so many athletes to the games. etc we have a far more difficult proposition being ‘independent’ than Scotland - but we are. Ask you Kiwi friends for an honest answer - would they think New Zealanders would rather be governed from Australia? Who knows there may be some economic benefits but the disadvantages much more. We choose which wars to participate I or more like not participate in.
If so many Scots can travel here and to Oz and get ‘top’ employment positions - then there is something wrong and please don’t tell me the completion makes it harder in Europe - you have such massive markets and all so close. Get on with it.
113

Conan the Librarian™,

29/08/2008 23:49:31
Dan, I think you need to se

P.S. i'm not as depressed as i wri
114

Conan the Librarian™,

30/08/2008 00:06:14
146
Can you see Castle Greyscale?
115

Conan the Librarian™,

30/08/2008 00:21:34
148
Good Night Dan.

Try St John's Wort.


 

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