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Salmond sets out demands for oil revenues to Brown

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Published Date: 02 June 2008
By HAMISH MACDONELL
ALEX Salmond has taken the first formal move to try to wrest control of at least some of the UK's oil revenues from the UK Treasury.
The First Minister has written to Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, asking for a share of the estimated £4 billion to £5 billion in extra income which the UK government is due to make in tax from the rapidly escalating price of oil.

Mr Salmond has also called for the creation of a Scottish oil fund, putting money aside for the time when the oil runs out.

But Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, made it clear yesterday he has no intention of dividing the extra oil tax revenue from the rest of government income, stating that some tax increases were going up while others were going down and the whole lot had to be seen as one package.

In his letter, Mr Salmond said: "The UK government needs to concede the principle and the justice of Scotland having direct access to a share of the tax receipts from our own oil and gas resources so that we can start to build a capital fund to power forward the Scottish economy."





Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 01 June 2008 9:41 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: North Sea Oil & Gas
 
1

Angus Ogg,

01/06/2008 23:31:35

Apart from killing off the objectionable myth that England subsidises Scotland, Alex Salmond is talking a lot of horse sense here.

Putting some money away for a rainy day is what Gordon Brown should have been doing for over a decade. Instead Lord Ditheringham of Kirkcaldy has squandered billions of Scottish oil receipts, AND sold off the UK gold reserves at bottom dollar.

2

Highland Mighty,

02/06/2008 00:11:30
1. Anyone who has examined past accounts have seen that Scotland's high public spending budgets far outweigh tax receipts, oil included.

Only now that oil prices are so high is Scotland actually breaking even.

Salmond has had full access to public accounts for a year now and yet he has not managed to prove otherwise.

Can you, Angus Ogg? Do you have access to accounts that Salmond has missed?
3

Hmm ...,

02/06/2008 00:27:49
... sounds as though you would like us to think that you have seen them, Highland! Put up or shut up - give us details of this spending and tax receipts, then!
4

blueguru,

US 02/06/2008 00:56:07
How can a tax increase go down?
5

Stu_R_20,

Edinburgh 02/06/2008 00:57:42
#2
You unwittingly bring up a matter that requires immediate attention: The oversized public sector. It is something which is known to be inefficient and is in need of serious reform, there are a lot of departments and layers of government which could be abolished/ slimmed down in order to bring Scotland's public sectors size into line with the rest of the UK.
6

,

02/06/2008 00:57:55
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7

,

02/06/2008 00:57:55
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8

truthsleuth,

02/06/2008 00:58:03
Mr Salmond is treading on dangerous ground he should take care when biting the hand that feeds him.

He hopes no doubt that Gordon the Gopher will not wish to raise this can of worms and repeatedly use it to distract the scottish populace when he feels threatened as he once did with devolution/independence.

Take care If Gordon is given the time to lick his wounds he will come looking for a victim.
9

,

02/06/2008 00:58:18
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10

Conan the Librarian™,

02/06/2008 00:59:47
4
Great Scott!
11

Sanny,

02/06/2008 01:01:37
#2 Highland Ejit:
Try reading Naill Aslens “The Great Deception”. He references all the figures he uses and they are in the main Government figures. Read and learn!!
12

Highland Mighty,

02/06/2008 01:02:14
3. They are on the net, look them up for yourself.

And notice how no-one in Holyrood has claimed these published accounts are wrong.

Yes, there have been periods when Scotland has paid more in tax than it has spent, but the last was during the early 80s.

Now, break the nationalist habit of making endless anti-UK/anti-English claims and then refusing to prove them, by actually showing how Scotland has always subsidised the trillion-pound-plus economy that is the rest of the UK.
13

,

02/06/2008 01:03:11
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14

Highland Mighty,

02/06/2008 01:08:27
17. 'The Great Deception' is a superbly ironic title!

This is the amateur blog that claims that Scotland is paying for the entire Trident programme citing that Scotland should only be paying 3.5% of the UK defence budget instead of the per capita 9%!

It is a (seriously!) flawed work which the author himself actually admits.
15

Highland Mighty,

02/06/2008 01:10:06
17. And see again how the nationalists resort to insults in a pathetic attmept to cover up their lies.
16

Highland Mighty,

02/06/2008 01:16:04
22. And what is the annual spending bonus from the interest on this $387bn?

(Now, remember that at least half the interest would have to be reinvested to allow for inflation.)
17

celtic4,

USA 02/06/2008 01:19:17
What I fail to understand is why the argument over the North Sea oil? It is clearly Scotland's to take out. England should not be allowed to get it or use it. It isn't theirs. It is like stealing to me.
And Traqur, I agree with you.
18

celtic4,

USA 02/06/2008 01:20:00
Traquir...sorry I mispelled your name.
19

Marga,

Fife 02/06/2008 01:20:45
Have people seen this article in yesterday's Guardian (and elsewhere)?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/jun/01/oil.france?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront

Is Scotland represented?

"In a surprise visit to the Oil & Gas UK conference in Aberdeen last week, Gordon Brown met senior executives from the consortium - which includes US heavyweight Chevron, Italy's ENI and Denmark's Dong Energy - and some of their rivals to try to broker a deal.

The two sides are represented on an industry task force set up by the government to work out how best to develop the estimated 4 billion barrels of oil and gas equivalent lying beneath deep water west of the Shetland Islands." etc.

20

Sanny,

02/06/2008 01:27:02
14 Traquir
Calculating the oil reserves is not a simple thing. Some oils is difficult to get at therefore expensive to extract and until recently was not economically viable. This said improving techniques and the increasing price is shifting the economic bar.

The techniques used in the 70’s and 80’s meant we could only recover about a third of the oil in the fields being exploited at that time. I recall that during the last major oil problem in the early 80’s I was involved in an experimental enhanced oil recovery project in an exhausted field in the Far East (it had been in operation since the 1930’s). The technique proved to be successful but it cost about $38 per recovered barrel and oil prices were below $40 and dropping therefore the project was shelved. Today the cost would easily be recovereable!

I’ve been retired some 15 years and am now out of touch but no doubt the recovery techniques have improved immensely in that time. Nonetheless I would hazard a guess that at today’s production rates the North Sea will continue to produce for another 30 to 50 years.

Then there is the Deep Sea potential reserves that haven’t been worked yet. This is largely due to the tax regime imposed by Brown making the Exploration Risks not financially viable. In effect he is killing the golden goose!

21

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 02/06/2008 01:29:24
SCOTTISH INDEPENDECE is the only answer for our children and their children thereafter. To rely on anything british is a folly. They are MORALLY and Financially CORRUPT.
22

Highland Mighty,

02/06/2008 01:34:42
24. Scotland also gets access to the huge profits from the oil and gas wells in the rest of the North Sea, English Channel, Atlantic and on land.

Scotland also gets access to the billions in profits from the City of London that simply dwarfs oil income.

There seems to be a lot you fail to understand about the differences between the US and the UK.

For starters, all tax income is shared so we don't have the disparities in public spending you get in the US.
Scotland also gets the second highest per capita spending of all the countries/regions of the UK.
23

Conan the Librarian™,

02/06/2008 01:43:38
29
And who gets the first?
24

Sanny,

Upwey 02/06/2008 01:44:20
20 Highland Mighty
Stop lying and trying to mislead readers. “The Great Deception” was compiled by a forensic Accountant from governments own published figures. It was submitted to the Treasury for comment, the Treasury acknowledged the figures were correct but had some niggles at interpretation. Despite wide circulation to government and the press no-one has to date succeeded challenging the conclusions of Niall’s report.

If you are convinced it is a shoddy report compiled by an amateur then perhaps the mighty highlander can succeed where all others have failed! So Put-up or Shut-up!
Question: - Did you bother to read the document? If so tell me what Scotland’s shortfall or surplus was per Niall’s report.

25

,

02/06/2008 01:46:31
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26

the_figures_are _fudged,

Galashiels 02/06/2008 01:48:32
Ah yes Bean the "listening party" - I feel your pain lame duck PM hands out another union dividend.

You couldn't make this up.
27

Sanny,

02/06/2008 01:54:00
29 Highland Mighty
Obfuscation again I’m afraid. There are some SMALL gas fields off the coast of Norfolk and a small oil field in the Poole harbour Area. Main oil production is at Whitch Farm – where I was once invited to be the Senior Engineer. Shell thought there was oil in an area of the New Forrest but after years of trying to deal with the NIMBY’s they gave up. The whole lot is small beer when compared to Fortes or the Brents.

If you can’t tell the truth then just STFU!!!

28

Sanny,

02/06/2008 02:02:56
32 Traqui
No thanks Traqui. I prefer to enjoy my retirement living mostly in the Algarve. A lifetime of eating sand in the desert, or sweating buckets in a rain forests or even worse freezing my tackle off in the North Sea I earned my retirement. I leave the work to you young guys.
Good Night all.

29

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 02/06/2008 02:04:19
There are 6 Million SCOTS living at home. There are 65 Million english living at home. Do the Math we the SCOTS Produce more per capitae than the english!! We are done with SUBSIDISING the ENGLISH, we saved them once back in 1984 and we are not doing it again.
30

Sanny,

02/06/2008 02:11:18

Traquir
Final word: are you aware that in the early days of the North Sea oil venture, Alex Salmond was working for the RBS as an economist specialising in oil ventures?
He’s probably the only one in either parliament who know what he’s talking about on the subject of oil!!

Now for the OFF button and bed
31

Jimmy the Pie,

02/06/2008 03:03:29
HIGHLAND MIGHTY - various rambling, incoherant and downright stupid posts.

Where have you been???

What monikers are you posting under these days???

Is British Pride now 'dead'???

Will there be an obituary in the Hootsmoan???

Can I come to the funeral and wake???
32

Royster,

02/06/2008 04:24:25
#8. Traquir, your paranoia knows no bounds. Perhaps the oil refinery was built on Teeside because it is a large petrochemical centre. You say Teeside is 'as near as you can get to Scotland'. Take another look at the map, Middlesbrough is in Yorkshire which puts Durham and the whole of Northumberland between Teeside and Scotland. #16. With regard to Rockall and the west, take a look at this week's Economist. Apart from saying that North Sea oil is definitely on the wane it says there is no pipeline infrastructure to the west which would be expensive to install. Also, Gordon has raised the tax on oil to 50%. Also, didn't Robin Cook some how loosen the UK claim over Rockall?
33

,

02/06/2008 05:55:09
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34

Guga II,

Rockall 02/06/2008 06:11:45
The posts by the so-called Highland Mighty, Royster and the like should be judged by the fact that they are not Scottish. Like their English government, they try and bluster and lie their way towards trying to justify the outright theft of Scottish oil revenues.

Scotland continues to be treated like former English imperialist colonies, in that it is being totally exploited. They will, of course, give us our independence when they can no longer steal any money from us to subsidise Enland.

We should take our independence while we still have some oil left.
35

Mikey,

02/06/2008 06:34:53
Guga, the High and Mighty Saxon and his cohorts only exist because people like you feed the troll! I know it's hard to ignore a liar, but believe me, it's better in the long run.

These anti Scots have nothing to add to the debate and are, at best, winding you all up and at worst, outright liars. Whatever they are, they are not worthy of a reply.
36

Royster,

02/06/2008 06:39:41
#47. So what? City of London profits are redistributed throughout the UK.
37

Royster,

02/06/2008 06:43:24
Why shouldn't oil profits be distributed throughout the UK? It's the same country. If you want independence then hold a referendum.
38

Royster,

02/06/2008 06:47:26
Alex Salmond seems to have the same economic thinking as Roderick Spode from Bertie Wooster.
39

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 02/06/2008 07:13:44
#29 Highland Mighty

You are a great puryeyor of fiction.

Corporate taxes from the Oil and Gas sector dwarf those from the Financial Sector.

Oil and Gas Business tax rates are at 50% while the wounded Financial sector pays 28%.

Oil and Gas contributed 7.8 Billion in 2007 and this is expected to grow to 9.9 Billion in 2008.

If Scotland was Independent we would receive 90% of those taxes, as well as all the royalty revenue.

Time to give give up the Goebells school of propoganda. The Lie only works when people don't have access to the truth. (McCrone)

Wait till the Gers for 2006 and 2007 come out this summer. For the first time we have a Scottish Government that won't manipulate the figures.
40

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 02/06/2008 07:16:50
#51

Corporate profits are distributed to the shareholders no matter where they live.
41

Royster,

02/06/2008 07:25:36
#6. But they pay tax on profits.
42

Royster,

02/06/2008 07:26:06
Sorry should be #56 not #6
43

john z,

edinburgh 02/06/2008 07:37:55
Alex Salmond is doing the right thing for Scotland, unlike the labour turncoats.

If I had not seen the McCrone report itself (available here http://tinyurl.com/3sdrdg ), I too would not have believed the full extent of the deceit perpetrated by successive London Governments. All designed to stop the people of Scotland realising how much money they are sitting on with their North sea oil reserves.

As regards the oil fields themselves, it is estimated by most experts that the price of oil will not decrease significantly, and will likely continue to increase, due to demand exceeding supply in countries like India and China. It is widely beleived that oil and gas will continue being pumped from Scotland for another thirty years.

I cannot understand how anyone would want to stay part of the UK after reading the suppressed Mccrone report from the 1970's.

It is Scotlands oil, it worth lots of money, it would make Scotland wealthy, but successive English governments have quite deliberately lied repeatedly to the people of Scotland about it. What kind of a union is that????
44

Royster,

02/06/2008 07:42:58
#60. I disagree. There is only one nation - the UK.
45

Royster,

02/06/2008 07:48:30
#60. For the sake of argument, let's suppose that Scotland becomes independent and immensely wealthy for the next 80 years on oil wealth. How would that wealth be redistributed? Would English people be allowed north of the border to work and live of the oil revenue, for example?
46

Royster,

02/06/2008 07:54:59
#65 It's still possible to English, Scottish and Welsh and NI and be part of the UK. That's what we have been doing for years. I just wouldn't put the interest of a constituent part of the UK above the UK itself. Personaly, I would call that treason.
47

Royster,

02/06/2008 07:55:16
Typo, I mean personally.
48

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 02/06/2008 07:59:37
#64

Since Scotland would most likely remain part of the EU there would be no difficulty in people from either country crossing the border to work and live.

49

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 02/06/2008 08:15:26
The fact that an Independent Scotland would be more wealthy than if she remained in the UK will become increasingly evident to people across Scotland as we approach the referendum.

The Unionist fear mongering is being believed by less people every day.

People by and large vote based on enlightened self interest. As it becomes evident that an Independant Scotland could afford even better public services while at the same time reducing the tax burden, people will naturally support Independence.
50

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 02/06/2008 08:19:15
Highlandmighty
Royster
Rulesbutnorulers

union apologists all.
51

Royster,

02/06/2008 08:29:10
#70. Then let's have a vote and sort it out. Close Holyrood and have a referendum on independence for Scotland.
52

Royster,

02/06/2008 08:32:30
#70 I don't object to self determination. I object to the irrational undermining of the UK and the possibiity of 'neverendums'. Scotland should either be fully in the UK or fully out. I'm, obviously, for the former but if the democratic wish is otherwise then so be it.
53

Citylocal Fife,

Fife News 02/06/2008 08:41:57
The question has to be asked..

What is/has Gordon Brown done with all the money?

A pile of cash was raised in the name of 'the enviromment - global warning', etc and was supposed to have been ringfenced. On closer inspection it seems that much of it was used to prop up unsavoury dictators, finance various wars and of course prepare for the worlds biggest drugsfest in London in just over 4 years time. Oops, nearly forgot the cromies, special advisers, and extra quangos....


54

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 02/06/2008 08:45:18
#51, #58

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Yes, the City Of London is legendary for its diligent payment of taxes and even-handed redistribution of wealth.

I commend most genuinely your apparent ability to make those comments with a straight face.
55

Marian,

02/06/2008 08:51:25
Over the past decades the North Sea has become one of the UK Government's biggest corporate tax cows, generating more than £230bn in revenue since 1968. It was multinational corporations who paid for the infrastructure as part of their investment in the North Sea, with no public funding from Her Majesty's Treasury. The Treasury is expecting to make around £10bn this year from oil revenues, though experts at Grant Thornton think this could rise as high as £16bn due to higher oil prices.

The UK Government, not the EU or the UN have already deliniated the boundaries of the UK Continental Shelf (UKCS) in the North Sea as "Scots" or "English" territory, by using international law and precedent. This is enshrined in legislation - the Continental Shelf Act 1964 and the Continental Shelf (Jurisdiction) Order 1968. This was done because of the existence of different legal systems between Scotland and England within the UK. These precedents and international law put over 90% of the UK oil resource in the Scots sector. The vast majority of UK oil resources lie in the CENTRAL North Sea. If you look at an oil fields map and cast your eyes eastwards anywhere from John O'Groats down past Aberdeen, to as far south as Fife you will find that there are large numbers of oil fields in this area - and all are delineated in the Scots sector. There are also oil fields to the far north east of Shetland in a second sector of the North Sea, lying on the UK Continental Shelf (Scots sector) with the boundary with the Norwegian Sector. They are also placed in the Scots Jurisdiction area of the UK Continental Shelf.

Professor Gavin McCrone, Fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, has known since 1975 of the UK Government’s duplicity about Scotland’s finances. As Chief Economic Adviser to the Secretary of State for Scotland, he prepared a secret report, “The Economics of Nationalism Re-examined”. The report was suppressed and only came to light in 2005 when the UK Government was forced
56

Marian,

02/06/2008 08:52:24
continued............

Professor Gavin McCrone, Fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, has known since 1975 of the UK Government’s duplicity about Scotland’s finances. As Chief Economic Adviser to the Secretary of State for Scotland, he prepared a secret report, “The Economics of Nationalism Re-examined”. The report was suppressed and only came to light in 2005 when the UK Government was forced by Freedom of Information law to release it. The report advised the then Labour Government that an independent Scotland would have a massive budget surplus. The report is at http://www.snpyouth.

It appears that Unionists do not believe the above report and prefer their claims that Scotland is an “economic basket case”.The supreme irony is that their claims completely destroys the case for the Union on the Scottish front AND on the English front.
57

thinking,

Scotland 02/06/2008 08:57:58
Before devolution there were a MPs representing Scotland at the seat of UK government.
After devolution there are MPs representing Scotland at the seat of UK government. Plus, many, many MSPs representing Scotland in Edinburgh, in a hugely expensive building, plus many quangos and others, spending a huge amount of taxpayers money to do what the MPs used to do
!!!!!!!!!!
58

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 02/06/2008 09:14:49
Salmond is a trouble maker supreme. He never gives a straight answer in Holyrood, is evasive, deceitful, and ultimately dishonest and all this will eventually be revealed. The oil crisis is a global issue and other areas of the economy are being affected that reduce income to the government of the day, any day. If people choose to ignore this fact then they are being deceitful, hence my comments re Salmond and crew can be justified yet again.
59

kimba,

02/06/2008 09:15:34
The UK Government is simply that,a government for the whole of the UK,as the oil in the north sea is British oil,(and you scots can argue the point 'til hell freezes over) salmond needs to take his arrogant and bigoted rhetoric and stuff it where the sun don't shine!
60

Mcsnagpile,

02/06/2008 09:23:33
We do not need Scottish oil. We need Scotsmen stout and true.
61

Ananurhing,

02/06/2008 09:24:39
#82 Rules

So you can see the merits of independence, but would rather see a federal option explored first.
So why do you continue to berate and insult those who believe in independence? Would you support an oil fund for Scotland within this federation? Like Alaska within the US federation.

You're sounding like a stuck record on the Shetland thingie. No one's listening. We're obviously not clever enough to get whatever vision it is that you have.
62

Ananurhing,

02/06/2008 09:35:59
This is great stuff from Salmond. This what I voted SNP for. Darling is up to his neck in financial quicksand, and is digging his heels in! Not clever!

As Ian McWhirter said in his very good article in the Herald yesterday, " We wont be fooled again".

I was explaining this story to my 11 yr old this morning, and she said, " If Gordon Brown can't deal with David Cameron, what makes him think he can deal with a man like Alex Salmond? If he thinks he can he's kidding himself."

I can't add anything to that.
63

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 02/06/2008 09:38:24
Rules again shows the desperation of his arguement when he has to introduce the Shetland rubbish. Even he knows that the Act of Union acknowledges that Scotland as a Nation signed the accord based on its sovereign terratories of that time. That is exactly the same terms we will invoke to end this Union of Misery for so many Scottish Folk.

What I do find puzzling is that the Unionists like Rules drag the bottom of the barrel when it comes to justifying why we should remain in the UK. There is never a practical, sensible or logical reason put forward by these type.

They consistantly omit the facts, because the fact of the matter are that Scotland a Nation in its own right,will in fact cease to exist as a country in the EU, and indeed the same will apply to England and Wales. We will be recognised purely as a region of the British Islands. We will never again have the voting rights, to sway an English dominated population of 50 million people versus 5 million Scots.

Norway has an Oil Fund Reserve approaching half a Trillion Dollars. China with all its population and massive investment now has 1.79 Trillion Dollars in surplus. Thats cash in hand. Scotland has NO Surplus. Years and Years of feeble weak Government in a Foreign Country who still havent recognised that they are still living in the past, and demonstrate it on a daily basis by spending our future through massive debts, to keep up the facade of greatness.

We dont make anything, or have a tangible industry base. Indeed we have all just witnessed that our entire wealth other than oil is based on some futures traders perception. Our Paper Money is valued on an opinion, with nothing of substance to actually back it up. We export weapons of war and very little else except half a million Brits a Year.

And Rules want the Scottish People to remain part of this sinking ship. No Thanks Its Time.
64

Ananurhing,

02/06/2008 09:44:06
#84 Kimba

Oh stop it Kimba! What bigoted rhetoric would that be?
Which aspect of Scottish territorial waters do you not understand?
65

Melly,

Sussex 02/06/2008 10:03:12
"some tax increases are going up while others are going down" how does a tax increase go down ? only the liebour louts could come away with that one !!
66

Tom R,

02/06/2008 10:10:52
#90 Rulesbutnotrulers

On the Shetland issue, as has been said by others, good luck to them if they do want independence-but I would not bet on it.

As Winnie Ewing pointed out in her autobiography, she took the majority of the vote in the Euro elections in every direct Euro election since 1984. Hardly a sign that the there is root and branch opposition to the SNP is it? :-)
67

kimba,

02/06/2008 10:34:41
89. Indeed,and have you never heard of BRITISH OIL,it's the same as British Gas and British coal,but there again scotlands attitude is "whats mine is mine,and whats yours is mine"!
68

boudica,

Glasgow 02/06/2008 10:39:01
Alec using this as a smoke screen for all his Lalaland Policies that are failing to please ....
69

Melly,

Sussex 02/06/2008 10:50:53
It`s quite mind boggling how these unionist apologists delight in denying Scotland the right to be in control of it`s own resources even denying it the right to claims on it`s inernationally agreed geographical territory on land and sea. Scottish Oil ? - no it`s Shetland`s Oil ( an internationally agreed part of the Scottish nation ) Rockall ? ah! well that`s not proven and the UK government have already agreed to deny ownership to Scotland, build a oil refinery in Scotland? no better to build it in England then we can`t send even further tax revenues to the UK treasury and increase our GDP. What other country has such treacherous nationals purporting to speak on behalf of the Scottish Nation.
70

kimba,

02/06/2008 11:01:42
boudica. you said it! not only failing to please,but slightly illegal!
71

Alan B,

02/06/2008 11:17:32
Good for Salmond. But i do not expect Brown to give in, as he fights englands corner.

U wait decades for a scottish pm and when one does get in he sets about being an english wannabe.
72

Alan B,

02/06/2008 11:19:20
The idea of scotland being part of the union is becuase it benefits scotland. But scottish unionists see it more as a way to sell out scotland rather than get a good deal for scotland.
73

kimba,

02/06/2008 11:43:32
99. maybe you should learn to spell "BECAUSE" CORRECTLY FIRST!
74

kimba,

02/06/2008 11:47:34
SALMOND IS A "WANNA" BE,maybe we should just abolish Hollyrood!
75

CLX,

ABZ 02/06/2008 12:02:06
Here's a couple of beauties from the mouth of Broon's Darling:

Chancellor Alistair Darling yesterday rejected the argument that the Treasury has been given an unexpected £4billion tax bonanza on the back of rocketing oil prices. "BLATANT LIE"

And Mr Darling said: “You can’t look at any one tax in isolation. If oil prices go up, that has a knock-on effect on activity in other parts of the economy.”

Re the second quote...no sh!t Sherlock...

76

LEAL,

02/06/2008 12:03:27
Another example of the Holyrood govt trying to act in Scotlands best interests but being denied what is rightfuly ours by London.
77

Ananurhing,

02/06/2008 12:16:21
101 Kimba

"maybe we should just abolish Hollyrood!"

What makes you think it's any of your business? You'll get the tory govt. that you want, free from any Scots interference, and we'll sort ourselves out in the way that we see fit.
You're right that Salmond's a 'wanabe'. Wanabe in control of our own finances, resources, and future. Free from outside interference and exploitation. Isn't that what you want for your own country? Isn't that what most nations want?

Oh, and " Pot, kettle, and black" to the spelling lessons Kimba.
78

CLX,

ABZ 02/06/2008 12:17:08
Here's one for the likes of Kimba to explain:

"Mr Salmond also wants the UK Government to scrap the planned October rise in fuel duty and introduce a fuel duty regulator so that the extra money raised from higher oil prices can be used to cut the amount of tax paid."

Now, without any reference to independence in there, why was this dismissed out of hand by Westminster?

"But the prime minister’s spokeswoman said the UK Government did not accept there was a windfall from oil taxes, as any extra revenues were offset by other areas of the economy in which tax receipts were falling."

How many more lies can the UK (not just Scotland) put up with before the squatters in Downing street are evicted???????

79

kimba,

02/06/2008 12:20:57
105. sour grapes, you are a bigoted fool, I truly hope cameron does what he promised the people of England, then and only then will salmond be put in his place!
80

Tellen1,

02/06/2008 12:27:28
#38

"There are 6 Million SCOTS living at home. There are 65 Million english living at home. Do the Math we the SCOTS Produce more per capitae than the english!! We are done with SUBSIDISING the ENGLISH, we saved them once back in 1984 and we are not doing it again."

I think if anyone needs to 'do the math' it is you:

The population of Scotland is 5.1m, not 6m, the population of England is 50m - nowhere near the 65m you say.

I also fail to understand why you feel qualified to comment on an article that has nothing whatsoever to do with you. You apparently live in LA and appear to be American (calling maths 'math') so I have no idea why you think you are Scottish - just because your great-great-great grandparent may have emigrated to America doesn't make you Scottish.

Also saying 'we are done with subsiding the English' seems very strange, I didn't realise America contributed in any way to English subsidies.
81

kimba,

02/06/2008 12:28:25
106. Are you stupid! Darling has just spent an extra 2.5 million pounds compensating those who suffered under abolishing the 10% tax rate,he can't do everything!
82

CLX,

ABZ 02/06/2008 12:35:31
Kimba,
Not stupid but you obviously are!!
Spending 2.5 million on their own f*ck up hardly explains anything. Basically, they're using the extra money to cover up their mistakes.

Missing you already ye puddin.........
83

Ananurhing,

02/06/2008 12:38:11
#107 Kimba

Sour grapes? Over what? And in what way am I bigoted?
Come on Kimba. Let's not go down the silly name calling route again.

I bear you and your fellow countrymen no ill will at all, and I wish you all the best in sorting yourselves out. We all get the government we deserve. I hope the Scottish example will prove to be inspirational to your once great nation. I hope you demand more from westminster than the bankrupt incompetents that have been foisted on you at the moment. Raise your sights a bit. Try a bit of optimism. It's working wonders on the Scottish national psyche. But above all,........keep it real hen!
84

John S,

02/06/2008 12:48:33
The Scottish Government and Parliament have the unquestionable right, and indeed duty, to express themselves on any issue that concerns the welfare of the people and land of Scotland, and to make representations where such are required.
85

Niadh,

Edinburgh 02/06/2008 12:50:43
#63 Royster.
Can i invite you to take a close look at the FULL title of this nation in which you apparently live??
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Great Britain being...
"Great Britain" describes the combination of England, Scotland, and Wales, and therefore also includes a number of outlying islands such as the Isle of Wight, Anglesey, the Isles of Scilly, the Hebrides, and the island groups of Orkney and Shetland, but does not include other outlying islands such as the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands
86

snoozyowl,

Wales 02/06/2008 12:50:57
Poor old Gordon Brown! Now his own countrymen are sticking in the knife... Of course the oil belongs to Scotland (and I might add the water to Wales, a somewhat more renewable resource), but he can't even think of admitting that or his whole financial plans will fall completely to bits. Good to have such friends!
87

Tellen1,

02/06/2008 12:53:10
Why does the SNP want the Queen to remain as head of state of an independent Scotland?

Surely if Scotland becomes independent it would be far more cost-effective to abolish the Royal Family's role as head of state and thereby save on the millions of pounds that Scotland's taxpayers would still have to contribute towards the upkeep of Balmoral and Holyrood Palace.
88

Alan B,

02/06/2008 13:07:17
#Tellen1

I think they see it as an issue to be discussed after independence and should not be seen as some distraction from the main issue. Taking control of our own resources and using them for the benefit of the country.
89

Angus Ogg,

02/06/2008 13:37:18
#2 Highland,

I have read a few of your posts, and was pretty much turned off by you. It is a bit like being in a pub and being approached by someone you really cannot warm to.

Please don't reply to my posts and I wont reply to yours.

Having seen what you write and the abusive way you treat people I would prefer to have nothing to do with you.

Thankyou.
90

Jock MacSprog,

02/06/2008 13:46:53
A.S. has become a characture of himself.

Question to all the NAT coolaide drinkers, will all the companies who own the oilfields, explore, produce, transport, refine, etc just step aside and hand over ownership to this entity "Scotland" under your master plan ? The point being, the oil isnt really the UK Gvt's to give away to Scotland is it ?????
91

Sanny,

02/06/2008 13:49:17
The recent attempt by Brown’s poodle – Wendy – to call an early Referendum was an admission that the people are beginning to wise up to the abuse of Scotland and her resources. The longer the Referendum is delayed the more certain it is that Scotland will vote to dissolve this one-sided Union. Wendy (a proxy for Brown) hoped the by calling the referendum now they might still be able to scare sufficient people in having doubts or to have a turn-out low enough for them to call the Referendum into question. The reaction scared the crap out of Westminster and Wendy was appointed “scapegoat” to take the blame for the reversal of policy!

The wily Alex Salmond is head and shoulders above the intellectual dross that forms the Westminster government. His long term Strategy and Planning have left the Westminster Gang in total disarray and they are now running flat out to remain where they are. By demonstrating the unfairness of the incompetent Westminster government to Scotland, whilst showing how a competent government with its own resources could successfully run Scotland, he is daily convincing more and more people that the way forward for Scotland it through becoming and independent country.

This latest challenge to Westminster is but another part of the plan slotting nicely into place and encouraging Scots to ask why their valuable resources are being squandered by their neighbours at their expense. Read the comments here and on other sites you will see it is working!

The opposing views by the Trolls compose of obfuscation and abuse that only serve to confirm the view Scottish Independence is on its way!!



92

Scottish not British,

02/06/2008 13:53:51
# 107
Salmond is in his place, he is the first minister i.e the place we, the Scottish people put him. What Cameron says or does makes no odds to most Scots and any attempt to interfere with Scottish interests by Cameron or any one else will only serve to hasten the inevitable, Scotland's independence.
This attitude and policy of the past 300 years of Anglo-centric government has been to suck dry everything good out of everywhere else and claim credit for "England" and blame "Britain" when it goes to hell.
Brown's barely been in the year, and people like you and the papers down south moan about Scots running Westminster whilst we've had to endure 300 years of English control and the destruction of our industries in favour of Southern England particularly under the Tories. I think you need to get somethings into perspective and learn to accept that things aren't going to go back to the way they were under Cameron and that he is not the great saviour of the union and the representative of the average man or woman of England he wants you to think he'll be(unless they all went to Eton, of course).
93

Jock MacSprog,

02/06/2008 13:56:44
all these NAT comments on this site seem to be written by the same person, using the same writing style and voice. The messages seem liked scripted party language which makes me think that there is someone on the SNP payroll sitting in an office putting propaganda on newspaper websites. Just a thought .....
94

Sanny,

02/06/2008 14:01:15
118 Jock MacSprog
Careful Jock – your ignorance is showing! The oil companies DO NOT OWN the oil fields. They are licensed to operate them!

Scotland would continue this system that works worldwide, albeit with a few exceptions. What you failed to understand is that depletion rates are, to a large extent, controlled by the National governments. Royalties and taxation are set and collected by the National government.

It isn’t a question of anyone giving away oil resources, all mineral resources are the property of the Nation. And in Scotland it is the people that are Sovereign, unlike England where it is the Queen in Parliament that holds the Sovereignty of England!

I hope this goes some way to clarify your confused thinking!!
95

kimba,

02/06/2008 14:03:37
111. You snide tw-t, we are all in this together like it or not,here's a quote David Cameron: Speech to Scottish Conservative Party Conference - News Story - Conservative Party: "But let me say this: if it should ever come to a choice between constitutional perfection and the preservation of our nation, I know my choice. Better an imperfect union than a broken one. Better an imperfect union than a perfect divorce. My answer is simple: I choose the United Kingdom.
96

kimba,

02/06/2008 14:06:31
110. Maybe so,never the less the money has to come from somewhere and that somewhere is the extra revenue from north sea oil.
97

,

02/06/2008 14:10:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
98

,

02/06/2008 14:10:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
99

,

02/06/2008 14:13:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
100

Sanny,

Glasgow 02/06/2008 14:13:17
121 Jock MacSprog
It’s not often your right Jock but you’re wrong again. It is the anti-Nationalist Trolls that seem to show the greatest propensity to the use of multiple ID’s to promulgate the same trash over and over. Take a simple look at the use of punctuation or more properly the lack thereof. The failure to recognise proper nouns and failure to use a capital letter when starting a new sentence. These faults tend to lie with the Anti- Unionist brigade.

I have never used any name other than my own, nor would I. I do change my location from time to time but that is because my actual location changes frequently from Scotland to England or Portugal.

If you don’t have factual information then is better that you say nothing and avoid being branded a liar.

101

Jock MacSprog,

02/06/2008 14:18:30
me thinks Sanny doth protest too much !
102

Scottish not British,

02/06/2008 14:22:57
#125&6
What exactly is bigoted about that my post? Or is it that you hate being contradicted? A quick read of your own posts will be a better example of bigotry than any one else's. Is bigot the only thing you can think of calling people who disagree with you other than the profanities you type?

You are nothing but a foul mouthed, ignorant hypocrite who frequently make derogatory comments about Scotland and spouts opinions you cannot back up with than wonderful little thing called evidence.

Also I can read the first time you posted that, a second time wasn't necessary, so you can save the comments page the spamming
103

Ananurhing,

02/06/2008 14:26:14
#118 Jock

You just don't understand how it works, do you?
104

kimba,

02/06/2008 14:27:20
128. You want facts,here goes. Salmond is in "panic" mode, he promised the scottish peaple the world,now he can't even give them scotland!
105

Sanny,

Glasgow 02/06/2008 14:28:56
123 kimba
That you disagree with the contributor at 111 is apparent but that doesn’t make him snide anything. If you wish to be known as British and to reside in the United Kingdom that is you privilege for so long as the UK exists. In my case I born a Scot some 75 years ago and despite having spent a little over 50 of those years in various parts of the world I have never had any desire to consider myself as anything other than a Scot not even when I served in the Kings Service defending the Empire.

The Empire is now gone and the Union will surely follow. The Charter of the United Nations guarantees the right of a people to self determination. Whether you like it or not Scotland is moving towards that self determination. As the ‘chinese proverb’ says “When rape is inevitable – lay back and enjoy”.

106

kimba,

02/06/2008 14:29:06
131. Do you have to start on everyone who disagrees with you.
107

Ananurhing,

02/06/2008 14:29:28
#121 Jock

Ignorant, deluded, and paranoic?

You've not got a lot going for you, have you?
108

Sanny,

Glasgow 02/06/2008 14:31:23
129 Jock MacSprog
Your comment Jock is meaningless - why am I not surprised?
109

Scottish not British,

02/06/2008 14:36:12
#132
That is not a fact, that is an opinion. Unsupported and an ill informed opinion at that. I would have expected anyone with even a basic GCSE to know that.
110

Ananurhing,

02/06/2008 14:40:48
#134 Kimba

No. Do you?

" bigoted fool", " bigoted tw*t", " are you stupid", "Snide tw*t"

#118 obviously doesn't understand how any government licences and taxes oil exploration and extraction.

I don't understand how a computer works, but I don't come on here shouting about it, or trying to pretend that I do!

111

Sanny,

Glasgow 02/06/2008 14:41:09
115 Tellen1
Do not confuse the dissolution of the 1707 act of the Union of Parliaments with the Union of Crowns in 1603. Sovereignty in Scotland lies with the people they have the right to depose or install or not whomsoever they choose to be the Monarch.

To avoid confusion it is better to avoid the question of the continuance of the Monarchy until after control of Scotland is restored to its people!

112

Sanny,

Glasgow 02/06/2008 14:48:59
132 kimba
I refer you to my previous post at 119 I thin that adequately refutes you assertion on Panic mode!
113

ruthie,

lothian 02/06/2008 14:56:44
we are sick of subsidising westminster. And i am sick of seeing negative headlines on the front page of this rag - anyone see todays?

114

Sanny,

Glasgow 02/06/2008 15:13:23
140 Traquir
I would say Game, Set & Match to you Traquir. A nice riposte.

Must say I’d never heard of the English Democrats but from your contribution they would seem to be part of rent a mob.

Given that certain elements in the South constantly claim the “whinging Scots are a liability that they have to subsidise”, why don’t they form a English Independence Movement to assist the SNP & the SEP to bring this unwanted Union to an end. If the stories one hears are true then there is a greater demand in England for the Dissolution of this Parliament Act.

115

Ananurhing,

02/06/2008 15:14:24
# Sanny

Well said on your many posts. I always take time to read what you have to say, and appreciate the dignified way in which you make your contributions.


# Kimba

Unlike you! Begone fish breath!!!!!!!

116

kimba,

02/06/2008 15:16:27
133. Scotland is moving nowhere, not now not in the future,it is part of the UK,and will remain so.
117

kimba,

02/06/2008 15:28:24
140. How dare you,salmond is the most bigoted self opinionated fool that ever walked this earth, so tell you what, hope cameron gives it to you,'cause like he says: But when we fail - we weaken the Union. You know what I mean. I don't want to stand here and talk about the mistakes that were made in the 1980s - I've said it before and that's all in the past. But let's recognise - for the strength of our Union - that it's vital that we succeed again now. And I'm one hundred percent clear about how our Party has always succeeded - and will succeed.s:
118

kimba,

02/06/2008 15:30:28
134. Are you a natural moron or do you have to work at it!
119

ddmc,

02/06/2008 15:32:03
#10 as you know the only thing still propping up the dollar is the petroleum exchanges. You want oil you need dollars to buy it. Iran have had plans to move to the euro & even the Russians are trying to get the rouble accepted as well.

The last person to accept a currency which wasn't dollar based for oil transactions was Saddam Hussain !

Maybe we could persuade the Iranians to accept scottish notes as well as euros :))
120

Nikostratos,

02/06/2008 15:38:03
Why not have a referendum asap or even sooner wendy did ask the snp to 'BRING IT ON'.

then all the carping and stirring from Alex can either be vindicated or not in which case goodbye Alex.

Oh no forgot the snp do not want to ask the people until
the evidence is there to support their assertion on the majority of scots wanting Independence.
121

Thomas1,

// 02/06/2008 15:40:08
Oil...
122

Scottish not British,

02/06/2008 15:44:54
#150
The SNP have always maintained that the referendum would be in 2010, not when Wendy Alexander says so, if they did have it now they'd be accused of breaking their manifesto promises.
123

Ananurhing,

02/06/2008 15:44:57
OOPS! Kimba's having a stroppy, hissy fit! I can feel the foot stomping from here. 1.7 on the Richter scale.

" How dare you, you're going nowhere Scotland, because me and David Cameron jolly well say so!"

Like I said to #118, You just don't understand how it works, do you? How about giving us your own thoughts instead of your parrot fashion British nationalists mantra! On second thoughts......don't bother!
124

Ananurhing,

02/06/2008 15:50:50
147 Kimba

Yes I'm a natural moron! Are you having a bipolar conversation with yourself?
Begone troll with the Halibutosis!

( You started this. I was perfectly civil to you earlier.)
125

Tellen1,

02/06/2008 15:58:47
#152

"The SNP have always maintained that the referendum would be in 2010, not when Wendy Alexander says so, if they did have it now they'd be accused of breaking their manifesto promises."

Considering the SNP have already broken a few of their manifesto promises already I'm sure it wouldn't make much of a difference if they broke another one.
126

Alan B,

02/06/2008 16:10:15
#Tellen1

Have they broken a manifesto commitment that is not cash related?

Also the judge whether they break manifesto commitments we really have to wait until the end of there term in office.

If they cannot fulfil manifesto commitments due to cash we have to ask why? There are a few reasons for lack of cash. The biggest is this is the worst settlement that the scottish parliament has had in terms of increases. 0.5% this yr. And this can even be considered a cut as it is based on the lower inflation rate set by brown. if u were to base it on the previous inflation rate rpi which the tories worked to this would be a cut.

There are also things like trams which they correctly backed down on as a minority government should. That gives another 400million + hole.

If u look at LIT. LIT will only come about if westminster hand over the council tax rebate. Labour are playing games here.

Why would the snp rush a referendum? It makes not sense in any perspective.
127

Alan B,

02/06/2008 16:11:25
sorry typos getting worse :)
128

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 02/06/2008 16:11:51
#156 Traquir, SAOR ALBA but not now Lord, not just now!
129

Ealasaid N,

02/06/2008 16:15:40
The only good thing the UK union has ever had going for it is ... Scotland. My father, an Englishman born and bred, always maintained that Scotland could survive independence but the English could not because they depend far more on Scotland than we depend on England, despite their bleeting to the contrary.

Devolution has proved to be a disaster for England, the kind of halfway house with ill formed and ill thought out ideas most former Unionists like myself suspected it would be.

Labour is corrupt, the leadership inept. The tories have no policies and no integrity and Cameron is little more than the worse kind of PR man - just like Tony the Phoney was. I never thought I would see the day when I said independence cannot come fast enough.
130

Ealasaid N,

02/06/2008 16:17:42
#155 - yet another good reason for independence.
131

Scottish not British,

02/06/2008 16:21:33
#157
Regardless they would have been criticised and much of the problems have been associated with cash and London thwarting them at every cut and turn, to use in the English based press, lets face it there are 50 million or so people in England and 5 million or so in Scotland, whose votes mean the most in the UK parliament? If they had done as Labour had (or was it hadn't?) wanted Labour would have used it to say they forced the governments hand and used it as some sort of short term victory, as a PR ploy to deflect the attention from the increasingly unpopular Gordon Brown. As it happens it backfired spectacularly and it was Labour looking stupid, not the SNP. Either way I recon we would vote for independence, particularly if my own age group turned out to vote.
132

morris,

edinburgh 02/06/2008 16:21:34
57

The international community recognises claims from former nations. Scotland is one (and includes Shetland).
Shetland is not a former nation.End of debate.
She is part of Scotland legally ,having been given in a dowry by Norway which is not and will not be contested, just as it is not contested currently. Shetland goes where Scotland goes unless they negotiate some kind of deal with Edinburgh,and even if an independent Shetland somehow became possible where is she going to send her hospital patients and whose services will she use,because she would no longer have any entitlement to services paid for by Scottish taxpayers .Bergen is a long flight to hospital and thats assuming the Norwegians will take them! They are foreign to Norway also remember and import almost everything.I doubt that any Shetlander would propose this and not expect to be locked up for his own saftey .

133

Tellen1,

02/06/2008 16:27:34
#158

"Have they broken a manifesto commitment that is not cash related?"

Almost all manifesto promises could be viewed as 'cash related' - they will all cost at least some cash to implement, even the referendum will cost money.

"If u look at LIT. LIT will only come about if westminster hand over the council tax rebate. Labour are playing games here."

Why should Scotland continue to receive £400m in council tax rebate if it gets rid of council tax?
134

Ealasaid N,

02/06/2008 16:31:52
# You have said the magic words - PR ploy. Who was it that said no more spin? Does Maggie and Broon sound familiar? I agree Bendy Wendy's PR ploy jumped right back and bit her in the posterior. Like the last labour leader she has become a joke. If Bendy is so keen to see changes in the way Scotland is funded, presumably so that Scotland will get a fair share of the revenue, then let her take her case to her boss, Maggie Broon, and demand he stump up the revenue he is refusing to hand over. Then we will see if the SNP keep their promises. Or is her well publicised plea yet another PR ploy?
135

morris,

edinburgh 02/06/2008 16:32:29
161

Obviously your father's commendable honesty was not wasted upon you!
Welcome to the fold and if you/they have not already done so,Im sure the local SNP branch will welcome you with open arms (but it will cost money,they got me as well)!

You passed the only test of Scottishness that exists as far as the SNP is concerned.
YOU WANT TO BE INCLUDED and as far as we are concerned YOU ARE and very welcome indeed!
136

Nikostratos,

02/06/2008 16:33:36
#152#156



Referendum now tomorrow 2010 no matter your gonna lose anyway. And 'IF' Dave is in charge at Westminster (a) he won't allow one (b) it will be an all united Kingdom one (c) as they are only indicative and lack any legal standing he will just (constitutionally) ignore the result (d) word the question to the detriment of the Nationalists (e) conservatives being far more devious than i can even comprehend will find a infinite variety of way's to foil this referendum or any result.

#57
Morris your some democrat you sound a bit like a unionist arguing against scottish Independence..did i say a bit strike that you sound a lot like...

even threaten them with violence..tut..tut
137

kimba,

02/06/2008 16:38:00
154 It's " HALITOSIS" JEEZ YOU CAN'T EVEN GET THAT RIGHR!
138

morris,

edinburgh 02/06/2008 16:45:35
165

Why should Scotland's share of the UK cake reduce because we changed our taxation system.This rebate was payable under council tax and under Poll Tax so why would this be any different? The money Scotland pays into London is not being reduced to compensate for this ,so it then subsidises the rest when it clearly belongs to us,and despite what the lying toe rags tell you this was part of the Scottish block grant,and I believe has been included in Wales and Northern Ireland's allocation so why infer its separate when an SNP government is elected but this only applies to Scotland. It was as I understand it written into the Scotland Act as part of our funding grant,and appeared in previous years,but now there is no detail of anything,so facilitating the disingenuous claim that it is separate,ring fenced and can be withdrawn,but no doubt others more eloquent than myself can explain it in more exact detail.The point is LONDON are lying(as usual).
They look after their own,and so must we.

We are a wealthy country,but so far we have also been a very stupid one and believe the Unionists lies every time!
139

Nikostratos,

02/06/2008 16:48:12
#170

well thanks Traquir its nice to be appreciated. some times when your slogging away for Independence and you are damned with faint praise it can get dispiriting but you have boosted me morale no end...cheers
140

lilywhite,

borders 02/06/2008 16:57:39
#157Considering the SNP have already broken a few of their manifesto promises already I'm sure it wouldn't make much of a difference if they broke another one.

Can anyone explain to me in which of Labours manifestos they said they would introduce tuition fees,taxes on pensions, flights scrap the 10p tax.I do remember 1 about a European referendum shame Gordon doesn't.No Government in history has ever delivered every single manifesto pledge,it is not Salmonds fault that Brown and Darling have given the poorest settlement ever to Hollyrood.Give us the 4.4 billion a year that we subsidise London by and watch him deliver and more.Add on the 500 million lab/lib pact decided to waste on the b****y trams.
141

Chris42,

02/06/2008 16:59:48
158 "If u look at LIT. LIT will only come about if westminster hand over the council tax rebate. Labour are playing games here."

Alan, I'm also disappointed with the Lib Dems, they favour LIT but I've never heard them criticise Labour on the CTax rebate issue.

142

morris,

edinburgh 02/06/2008 17:02:06
168 No I sound like someone who deals in facts.

Scotland is recognised as a nation. Shetland is not. What part of facts do you not understand ? All of it when it suits your purpose clearly.
I do not threaten Shetland.If she can ever remove herself (if its possible )it can only be of her own choice, and I do not recognise that possibilty existing at the moment(but dont let the facts get in the way whatever you do).

I simply state that its not a claim which can be substantiated so why fill the Shetlanders heads with this nonsense,and even being gracious and allowing for the impossible ,you cannot expect Scotland which is independent of Shetland to treat her any differently to that which will be the case from Norway also,ie a foreign neighbour ,and Norway is under no obligation to do anything.She certainly would NOT wish to contest the dowry which was given in good faith and is not even debated.The situation is clear enough.My own personal view is Shetland should find out the facts before she listens to the total propoganda crud which is invariably fired in her direction.I did not start this nor do I take that much interest in what is hypothetical and mischevious and cannot happen.
143

Nikostratos,

02/06/2008 17:03:42
I just like to point out how Alex 'Demands' in the headline old newspaper trick make people seem aggressive and unreasonable.....
144

David MacVicar,

Web 02/06/2008 17:08:30
168 Niko,

You seem pretty sure of yourself for someone posting without a shred of evidence on the constitutional or legal side of your assumptions. The only accurate part is the deviousness of Unionist politicians.

Constitutionally Scotland is not legally binding to UK state if we so choose since the people are sovereign. This is an established legal position in Scotland. We are only bound to UK for as long as we agree to keep the treaty of Union. I am not posting any proof for this either but you are the one parading about the forum with weeping statements.

The only thing the UK state could try to attempt is to ignore our sovereignty but then international treaties that the UK state have signed up to would vome into play.

You are using the false scaremongering of BRIT ignorance. A tactic often used by the lowest caste of UK BRIT genus - the Scot BRIT. The BRIT approach is as follows, as exhibited daily on Scottish web forums:

B - Belittle anything Scottish or Scottishness.
R - Ridicule nonBrit ideas of Scottish affairs.
I - Ignorance of all matters constitutional, rights.
T - Triumphalism - Pride in dominance of UK state over all things Scottish. EG. Scots doing X for themselves is surely against the law!


145

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 02/06/2008 17:08:52
This a stupid arguement. No constituent part of the UK can claim back the tax paid to the Government from its region. Next we would have London at it. If we want the oil money hold a referendum aand declare Independence. If we don't have the guts to go for it then we should shut up.
146

Scottish not British,

02/06/2008 17:09:28
#168
I wish I could see your face when Scotland votes for independence. Unionists seem to be under the misapprehension that David Cameron will wave a magic wand and nationalists will do as he says, you will be very sorely disappointed, this wont go away just because someone in London says it will. I think the legal implications may prove the fly in D.Cs ointment, surely voters in England can only vote on whether England leaves not Scotland and vice versa and given the dubious legality of the whole Act of Union (giving the rich a couple of pieces of silver is surely not legal since it wasn't theirs to sell and given that we have the Declaration of Arbroath). He would be very stupid to refuse a referendum and if we were the scrounging, ungrateful scum we are portrayed to be why do they care if we leave?
I'm sure David Cameron is already swotting up on how Robert Mugabe keeps the opposition down and and the results in his favour when he's clearly lost. Face it he tries anything like than then he really will be a dictator and then nothing he says can stand.



147

PotomacHighlander,

USA 02/06/2008 17:10:13
Clearly, with all the evidence presented, Scottish citizens and her authority should, with diligence, declare a state of independence, and a repeal of the Union for the sake of the Scottish people. The English establishment and those allied with it do not reflect the best interests of the Scottish people. Many of us in the USA support you. God bless Scotland!
148

David MacVicar,

web 02/06/2008 17:11:13
Weeping should have been sweeping, though weeping is accurate enough ;)
149

kimba,

02/06/2008 17:13:30
180. Wish I could see yours when it dosen't
150

dude,

wishy 02/06/2008 17:14:10
Nikostratos,02/06/2008 16:33:36
#152#156



Referendum now tomorrow 2010 no matter your gonna lose anyway. And 'IF' Dave is in charge at Westminster (a) he won't allow one (b) it will be an all united Kingdom one (c) as they are only indicative and lack any legal standing he will just (constitutionally) ignore the result (d) word the question to the detriment of the Nationalists (e) conservatives being far more devious than i can even comprehend will find a infinite variety of way's to foil this referendum or any result.

#57
Morris your some democrat you sound a bit like a unionist arguing against scottish Independence..did i say a bit strike that you sound a lot like...

even threaten them with violence..tut..tut

A real scot eh! You sir are are full of the brown stuff, even the thought that 'dave' would try his best to stop the people have their say with you sitting their gloating really gets me, who the f..k do you think you are, oh! i know a flute playing orange bigot who does not even regognise Scotland as a country only as a cash cow for middle earth, i mean england
151

dude,

wishy 02/06/2008 17:18:39
kimba,02/06/2008 17:13:30
180. Wish I could see yours when it dosen't

what the f..k has it got to do with you anyway, as long as your beloved england reaps the benefit of ripping scotland off eh! when we vote for independance we shall see how the union thinks of the scottish people, for example when our economy is rampant while englands goes down the swanney cause you dont have us to prop up yours
152

morris,

edinburgh 02/06/2008 17:23:06
181 For which we express our gratitude! USA politics are understandably of an ethnic nature,with US citizens fiercely proud of their origins,and why not.There is no doubt that many USA and Canadian citizens share our blood and clan names,and we hope you continue to support us as we try to achieve independence and be recognised by United Nations Community,and support for us from the North American continent is always welcomed.Thank You.
153

morris,

edinburgh 02/06/2008 17:39:50
179 The last thing London would want to do is claim back what she paid into the UK . She currently recieves 114% of what she paid and is therefore

subsidised by the rest of the Uk by 14% extra, and those are government figures!

I agree of course that a referendum should be held as was promised during the lifetime of this parliament,and if the majority favour a blank cheque called Devolution MkII then thats what should happen.It is a blank cheque at the moment however,and until such time as Westminster declare what Devolution MkII contains and more importantly NO LONGER contains,then you cannot expect anybody to vote on anything!
Maybe some people buy cars with no engine.I DONT!
154

Ananurhing,

02/06/2008 17:46:25
169 kimba,02/06/2008 16:38:00
154 It's " HALITOSIS" JEEZ YOU CAN'T EVEN GET THAT RIGHR

Ooooooh Noooooooo pleeeease! It's like shooting flounders in a barrel!

Fish breath............Halibutosis.......never mind!

And you can't even get righr righr!

( I'm perfectly willing to be respectful to you if you would extand me the same courtesy.)
Sorry I forgot! That means I'll be nice to you, if you'll be nice to me!
Alrighr?
155

morris,

edinburgh 02/06/2008 17:51:24
Before anyone states the obvious Yes I am aware that the SNP manifesto was probably worded as a referendum in 2010,as opposed to "within this parliaments lifetime"and that is what should ideally happen of course.
If Westminster want one before then, we are hardly going to stop it are we?
One thing which is abundantly clear.Both sides will find it very difficult to ignore the outcome!Thats why the Unionists dot dare hold one!They dont know what the result would be but its certainly not one they will like!The question is just how popular is independence now? I suspect its precariously close to the point of no return,and at best too close to ever be risked by London!
After Cameron is elected who knows what it will be!It could easily soar over the 50%.
It may already be close,and it should have happened forty years ago!
156

Scottish not British,

02/06/2008 18:16:22
#183
Wish away since that's all you'll have. I'm more than willing to watch the results of this with you, but it will be you disappointed not me. I have every faith in my fellow Scots and and in my country, Scotland.

#185
Well said.

#187
Thank you. I only wish we all grew up in an independent prosperous nation and I think we all owe it to ourselves, our children's generation and every generation to come after them to vote for what we know to be right and ensure Scotland is ruled for the people of Scotland and their rights and benefit.
157

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02/06/2008 18:54:06
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158

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02/06/2008 18:57:23
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159

hassan i sabbah,

edinburgh 02/06/2008 19:00:44
Well that was fun! Sanny and Traquir well done lads,Good points well made,Backed up with evidence.Kimba et al-Oh dearie me what a pointless petty argument you put forth.
Away and stamp your petulant wee feet!
160

Scottish not British,

02/06/2008 19:10:09
maybe delivery of promises would be easier if the other parties (ie. lib-lab-con)cooperated and did their jobs i.e serving Scotland instead of serving us up on a plate for London. They aren't punishing the SNP they're punishing the people which is unforgivable.
161

Patrick O'Reilly,

Coatbridge 02/06/2008 19:35:57
Trump flies in tomorrow to meet his Scottish sycophant. Another one added to his collection. Alex, he's stitched you up good and proper.
162

Angus Ogg,

02/06/2008 19:36:09
Why do people like Kimba write....

"128. You want facts,here goes. Salmond is in "panic" mode, he promised the scottish peaple the world,now he can't even give them scotland!"

Kimba, you clearly are ignorant of the difference between a "fact" and an "opinion".

A fact at it's most empirical is something like "1+1 = 2". There is no debate. A fact is something of verifiable truth and logic.

What you have written, and I have quoted you as writing is an "opinion". It is also a disreputable opinion. It can clearly be disputed.

I have seen Alex Salmond in many moods. I have never, ever seen him in a "panic".

Your facts are not facts. Your opinions are worth very little. What is the point of a Kimba ?

P.S. You have misspelt the word "peaple". Presumably you mean people? Also the word Scotland is a noun dear, and should start with a capital letter.
163

Angus Ogg,

02/06/2008 19:42:34
140 Traquir,

Thankyou Traquir, spot on. Point well made.

Thankfully, some posters are able to make a reasoned and well mannered debate.

Hopefully the Kimba person, meant the word "twit" when he was throwing abuse about?
164

Nikostratos,

02/06/2008 20:28:35
#178 David

Dear David thanks for your thoughtful reply i should point out although what i said about the conservatives behavior will be proved correct...I didn't actually say it was the right thing to do you as usual with your predispositions added that thought yourself.

And as for your interpretation of sovereignty i am afraid more fantasy than legal fact.

Kind regards niko
165

Evia,

02/06/2008 21:16:20
stopblair.eu/indexen.html

www.gopetition.com/petitions/gordon-brown-resign.html

Between the two of them, they have ruined Britain. Never let them ruin any other country.
166

,

02/06/2008 21:31:50
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167

MincePie7643256,

Alba 02/06/2008 22:02:25
Can someone please sort out these fuel charges - £1.15+ per litre is a disgrace !!!
168

,

02/06/2008 22:56:54
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169

frank mcbride,

lusitania 02/06/2008 23:22:28
It should be noted that the role of Unionist apologists keeps rolling.

Please have a critical look at the thread; one incites, leaves, and is replaced by another.

Highland Mighty,
Royster,
Kimba, the first 3.

Even AM2, misguided but honourable, will not get involved with these apologists
170

Wynn,

CLYDESDALE 02/06/2008 23:49:26
Let's listen to Traquir. He chews on the article..he sticks to thhe point..the matter in hand.
But, typical Scots, the rest of us seem more concerned with starting a fight in an empty room (COMMENT being an empty room)
If we use up our energies in silly strife with one another we fall for the politician's trick,"Say something outrageous and them as thinks will spend their energies arguing with one another and let me get on with the important stuff unnoticed".
171

Highland Mighty,

03/06/2008 01:11:01
So no-one can provide any proof that the GERS have been wrong, that any/all other published govt accounts are wrong and that Scotland has been 'subsidising' the UK...as claimed daily by the nats on these boards (although interestingly NOT claimed by the SNP).

There we go.
172

King O The Picts,

Here 03/06/2008 11:21:01
#2 Glad to see fantasy is alive and well with you.
Disney need talent like yours.
173

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03/06/2008 22:18:43
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03/06/2008 22:29:47
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