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SNP blasted for spending £500,000 on National Conversation

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Published Date: 06 July 2009
THE Scottish Government has defended spending almost £500,000 on its "National Conversation" over the future of the constitution.
Ministers yesterday came under pressure to explain the bill, amid accusations the debate was "one-sided".

The government released a breakdown of costs to the Liberal Democrats, which showed £464,143 was spent on the series of events held across th
e country.

The £464,143 total included £341,356 for staff and £55,144 to publish policy documents.

Lib Dem finance spokesman Jeremy Purvis said: "This is the most expensive one-sided conversation in Scottish history.

"It is a monologue from SNP ministers, not a dialogue with the Scottish people. It has cost the taxpayer almost £500,000 to listen to the SNP have a conversation with themselves.

"Ministers have simply been asking a question they already know they answer to. The SNP want independence and isolationism for Scotland, the Scottish people don't."

The Lib Dems, Labour and Tories set up their own debate, the Calman Commission, which excluded any reference to independence but called for more powers at Holyrood.

The SNP "conversation" is a prelude to a proposed referendum on Scottish independence earmarked for next year.

Scottish Tory leader Annabel Goldie said: "The National Conversation is a waste of taxpayers' money and a waste of everyone's time. Support for independence is at an all-time low and support for Scotland's place in the Union at a high."

But a spokesman for constitution minister Mike Russell said the National Conversation was "genuinely inclusive".

He added: "The Calman Commission, in stark contrast, was a hand-picked talking shop which rigged its findings from the start by deliberately excluding the option of independence."





Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 05 July 2009 9:51 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish National Party
 
1

JimC,

Kilmarnock 06/07/2009 00:05:41
Well seen it's Sunday.
2

Phil C,

06/07/2009 00:16:35
Money would have been better spent buying bevvy for the people. There aren't many Scots who speak more sense sober than pished!
3

DialMforMurdoX,

06/07/2009 00:22:21
This is a bloody disgrace. Why is there no quote from Baron George Foulkes von Cumnock????
4

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 06/07/2009 00:22:36
Scottish Tory leader Annabel Goldie said: ".....Support for independence is at an all-time low and support for Scotland's place in the Union at a high."

I think she's been having a conversation with herself.
5

Marga,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 00:26:31
"Scottish Tory leader Annabel Goldie said: "The National Conversation is a waste of taxpayers' money and a waste of everyone's time. Support for independence is at an all-time low and support for Scotland's place in the Union at a high."

Ms Goldie does not seem her usual pragmatic self these days - wonder what's going on ...
6

Brian S,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 00:40:14
Dry your eyes and get over it!

7

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 06/07/2009 00:52:53
How much did Calman cost?
8

Brianwci,

06/07/2009 01:04:55
If the SNP Government pressed on with its plans for constitutional change without consulting the people of Scotland they would be rightly attacked for doing so.

Consultations cost money and half a million is a small price to pay for consulting about life changing decisions.

As for Ms Goldie.....sound bites do not increase poll ratings.
9

frank mcbride,

lusitania 06/07/2009 01:04:57
A strange thing, isn't it?

The Calman conversation did not consider Independence nor Fedralism nor FFA and thus ignored the choices more than 50% of the electorate of Scotland who expressed a Party preference at the 2007 GE.

No-one complained about the cost of this gerrymandered body.

The National conversation, on the other hand, is open for discussion of ALL opinions concerning he future governance of Scotland, and the politicians of the Unionist Alliance complain about the cost.

Do Unionist politicians have an other agenda here?
10

,

06/07/2009 01:14:59
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11

,

06/07/2009 01:28:03
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12

redcliffe62,

06/07/2009 01:32:33
a comparison between the calman pretendy discussion, and the all encompassing national conversation in terms of costs would be enlightening.
13

,

06/07/2009 01:34:09
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14

Joe Plaice,

the Nutmeg of Consolation 06/07/2009 01:36:11
A better headline would be:- "NuLiebore blasted for giving billions of taxpayers' money to their big bankster buddies."
15

alba nach,

Tarbert 06/07/2009 01:36:56
So 464,000 now gets rounded up to 500,000 rather than down to the closer 450,000?

I presume that is to make it seem closer to the cost of Calman, which cost 550,000 for a discussion amongst a unionist coterie?
16

,

06/07/2009 01:38:54
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17

Edward,

06/07/2009 01:44:11
Unionists blasted for spending £500,000 on Calman Commission!
It was revealed that the Calman Commission, which was to be merely gathering of suggestions for Gordon Brown has blown £ 500,000 of taxpayers money, despite the fact that the Scottish Government was neither consulted nor invited to take part. More over it avoided at all cost any direct conversation with the Scottish general pupblic at large, prefering to talk amongst themselves on an agenda fixes by the Labour Party
18

Edward,

06/07/2009 01:45:01
Sorry Suzanne - LABOUR TROLL
19

Edward,

06/07/2009 01:48:11
Lets have a referendum and let the people decide
to either have the SNP open negotiations towards the dissolution of the Union with England and full Independence (like any other modern democratic state)
or
The acceptance of the Calman Commission proposals and to remain tied to the Union with England and be conned for another 50 years, before it sinks in that teh Scots have been taken for a ride!
20

ukrefusenik,

camelon 06/07/2009 02:00:39
it will make not the slightest dent in the S N P popularity ratings , or change by a single seat the huge bloody nose of a defeat that awaits the corrupt monkeys in red rosettes when the next electoral contest swings our way , life long labourites with an admirable desire for a more equal society , are telling anyone that will listen , "next time S N P"
21

,

06/07/2009 02:01:08
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22

Castaway™ ,

06/07/2009 02:11:35
Scottish Tory leader Annabel Goldie said: "Support for independence is at an all-time low and support for Scotland's place in the Union at a high."
TNS Polls-Average over the 7 polls Aug 2007 to May 2009
I agree 37.7% : I disagree 42.3% : Don't know 20 %
Remove Aug 2007 and May 2009:-
Average over the 5 polls = 38.5% : 41.5% : 20 %
23

Electric Hermit,

06/07/2009 02:53:02
11
Gregor Addison

"How much did Calman cost?"

The question any decent reporter would have asked.

24

Electric Hermit,

06/07/2009 03:17:43
11
Gregor Addison

"How much did Calman cost?"

From the Calman Commission website,

"Total expenditure has therefore been approximately £500,000." - http://tiny.pl/33b4

So the Calman Commission, with its rigged remit and total lack of public consultation has cost taxpayers as much or more than the massively successful and fully inclusive National Conversation.

Surely the headline should read -

UNIONIST ALLIANCE BLASTED FOR SPENDING £500,000 ON CALMAN COMMISSION

25

donald,

glasgow 06/07/2009 03:21:22
No mention of the Calman Unionist Alliance Commission cost?
26

,

06/07/2009 03:36:33
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27

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

06/07/2009 04:46:45
WOW!

Have just Googled 'Calman commission costs' and 'Calman commission price' and 'Calman commission bill and, finally, 'how much did the Calman commission cost?'

The ONLY web-site with projected costs, at the initial set-up of the commission, is the SNP!!!

Since then - nothing!

So, does anybody truly know?
28

foxbat3000,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 05:24:21
Edward 25 and sorry suzanne 30 are bad little boys and girls doing yah boo sucks. lol

The national conversation might result in a referendum question that the people want calman wont result in anything.
29

Finnzz,

06/07/2009 06:48:56
Oh dear, it appears the Unionist hordes have decended on this thread. Looks like Sorry Suzy will need his pals to rub some of that lotion on that itch that he just cannot reach.

30

Castaway™ ,

06/07/2009 06:58:29
National Conversation, total cost £464,143 - 6 Jul 2009
National Conversation, it has cost the taxpayer almost £500,000 - 6 Jul 2009

Calman Commission, it has cost the taxpayer almost £500,000 - June 2009
Calman Commission and cost about £550,000. Times 8 Dec 2008
31

English Voice,

06/07/2009 07:16:58
What a disgrace. The SNP spending less on the National Conversation than we Unionists spent on our Calamine Commotion.

What with it being in the SNP manifesto, I can't decide to attack to the SNP for doing, or attack them for not doing it!

I confess I am a bit confused by our current Unionist strategy re. Calman, it having produced recommendations such as air gun and other legal provision moving to Holyrood which we now seem not to want.

Time the SNP stopped grand-standing on the constitution and picking fights with Westminster over air gun control and left all that to us Unionists, when we work out if we favour the Calman proposals!

Avanti the union!
32

Pilrig,

Livingston 06/07/2009 07:23:21
24 (Suzanne Firefly) 'we need Gordon' - like a hole in the head !
33

Joe Plaice,

the Nutmeg of Consolation 06/07/2009 07:29:15
24 (Suzanne Firefly) 'we need Gordon' - to resign NOW!
34

dunedin bully wee 1877,

06/07/2009 07:30:52
There is nothing in the limited remit of Calman Commission Report which could not have been included within the National Conversation.

On the other hand, the National Conversation is entirely “inclusive” with no available option, all the way from a return to Direct Rule from Westminster to Independence, being excluded.

Calman has been an unnecessary duplication of time, money and effort, and should have been funded out of Unionist party funds and not by the taxpayer.
35

English Voice,

06/07/2009 07:32:28
45. Dunedin

good grief! As we unionists now don't want the Calman recommendations, I don't see why we should pay for them!
36

Tynietiger,

06/07/2009 07:42:15
Another one sided report in the North Briton newspaper.

Agree with Clyde supporter above. The National Conversation outlined other options to independence and held numerous well attended public meetings throughout Scotland plus 500,000 hits on Web Site.

Calman has cost more,set up only as a response to the National Conversation, excluded independence option, and only had meetings with invited audiences.
37

The Saltire,

06/07/2009 08:13:31
Another piece of worthless contrived unionist tripe from a worthless state run propaganda sheet.
Are there no real journalists left in this country?
38

mr broon,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 08:25:52
We will soon find out the cost of the Calman Commission.

A number of Freedom of Information applications have already been made and the answer is expected in the next few weeks.

What's your bet it cost a lot more than the Nationalist's talking shop?
39

gus1940,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 08:50:08
Can anybody provide evidence of a single member of the general public being given permission to attend and/or contribute directly to the procedings of The Canute Commission.
40

The Tin Man,

06/07/2009 08:53:32
"SNP blasted for spending £500,000 on National Conversation..."

Why don't our super-duper MSP's force a vote on the continuation of the nat con, and the calman comm? Too busy voting on motions to congratulate Andy Murray on his second service?

By the way, 'inclusive' in this context, would mean that something is not forced upon us by our current dictatorship, but via a democratic mandate.

Anyway, I await the 'results' of the nat con with baited breath. Of course, how any 'results' will be arrived at should be good for a laugh. All run by a rather far-out guy who who wants to privatise the NHS and the roads...
41

Stan Butler,

06/07/2009 08:57:02

Criticism of the SNP should be illegal.

42

,

06/07/2009 09:12:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
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43

Joe Plaice,

the Nutmeg of Consolation 06/07/2009 09:23:12
Stan the Wumman, Suzanny the tranny and Tin Brain:
Well, your posts are a major danger to the health and psychological well-being of anyone unfortunate enough to read them. Should they be banned? No, I don't think so. If they were banned we would have to go out and buy something like VIZ or Private eye to get our laughs, at least your posts are free.
44

gus1940,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 09:28:44
#55

Thay are so stupid that they don't realise that there infantile utterances only convince more and more people to support the cause of independence.
45

gus1940,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 09:29:41
'their' not 'there'
46

Roy,

06/07/2009 09:31:32
'isolationism' - have you ever heard such tosh!
47

Finnzz,

06/07/2009 09:35:53
Yes, I'm afraid Mr Purvis does not appear to quite understand how government works. Or perhaps he can't quite get it into his head that the SNP are in government.

One of governments duties is to inform the population on various topics and legislation which can affect them. The National Conversation is therefore Scottish Government ministers following that duty.

Are these Unionists thick or what.
48

The Tin Man,

06/07/2009 09:38:58
#55 Joe

#56 gus

Ah... SNP Cyber-Bully's, how charming! Rattled by the truth, as always. Diddums.

Now, descending to your level...:

'Joe Plaice and gus1940 are big fat neeps!'

See, I'm sooo cool!
49

,

06/07/2009 09:40:08
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50

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 06/07/2009 09:42:12
"Lib Dem finance spokesman Jeremy Purvis said: "This is the most expensive one-sided conversation in Scottish history.""

One-sided?

He must be referring to Calman, surely?
51

The Tin Man,

06/07/2009 09:42:41
#59 Finnz

"One of governments duties is to inform the population on various topics and legislation which can affect them."

Wise-up. What Nat Con legislation was that? When was the parliamentary vote? Where is the mandate?

This is 'how government works'... in the Russian Federation, tavorish.


52

Melly,

Dunblane 06/07/2009 09:45:58
Does anybody know any member of the public who was consulted by the Calman Commission ? Surely on such a constitutional matter, paid for out of the public purse,there would have been just a modicum of consultation with we the public ? or were we deemed not worthy of our input ? I am sure the unionist trolls will be able to enlighten us. Any of you wish to comment?
53

hoblar,

06/07/2009 09:46:43
The tokenite three unionists who talk such mince should bear in mind that if it wasn't for the fact that New labour were booted out then we wouldn't have had any discussion about the future governance of Scotland as the dreaded labour campaigned (and famously lost) on the 'status quo' and the equally dire tories had to be dragged kicking and screaming as well!

The unionist desperados here, few in number as they are, needn't worry about the future of Scotland as it won't involve them to any great degree, their views, particularly here, being distasteful and arrogant and merely being a true reflection of the abysmal westminster styled government they love and cherish so much!

The best way to ensure that the union restraints og Calman are ditched and improved is by making sure that the Scottish electorate votes accordingly, and even with the worst British government ever, I still reckon Scotland will vote for the SNP in even more numbers than currently predicted.

54

Finnzz,

06/07/2009 09:47:55
Oh dear Tinman, You really don't understand how government works either. You must be related to Mr Purvis.

As for the mandate. just look at the last Scottish election results.
55

dunedin bully wee 1877,

06/07/2009 09:50:38
60 The Tin Man

“Neeps” are quite useful commodities within my household.

However, we appear to have little use for either Tin Men or Butlers.

56

hoblar,

06/07/2009 09:51:07
"Does anybody know any member of the public who was consulted by the Calman Commission ?"

Nope.

Good question and one that I pondered.

It is obvious that the Calman Commission was merely a knee jerk, a unionist show of pseudo strength in the face of being beaten by the Scottish Government rather than any attempt at a genuine review of the Scottish constitution.

The fact is that had labour, new labour, the red tories that is, won at Holyrood in 2007, we would have been stuck with not only a rubbish government but also no look whatsoever at the constitution as the labour vote would have been seen as as a vote for the status quo.

Hooray, they were booted out, and we will ensure that unionist parties struggle to continue their anti Scottish line when they are supposed to represent the Scottish interest first and foremost.
57

AM2,

Scotland,UK 06/07/2009 09:51:43
Question for the CyberNats:

The Calman Commission was established following a democratic vote in the Scottish Parliament — specifically motion S3M-976 of 6/12/07.

Which parliament gave the SNP’s national monologue any kind of mandate?
58

Electric Hermit,

06/07/2009 09:53:59
70
AM2

"...the SNP’s national monologue..."

There was no such thing. So why would it need a mandate?

59

AM2,

Scotland,UK 06/07/2009 09:55:13
#71 Electric Hermit

I believe you refer to it as the "national conversation" on independence.
60

Yeah1,

06/07/2009 09:55:22
Its interesting looking back through the 'national conversation' documents to see Alex Salmond mention in a speech his famous 'arc of prosperity'.

This so-called 'arc of prosperity' included Denmark, Finland, Norway and of course Iceland and Ireland.

The latter two of course have been amongst the countries worse hit by the credit crunch - not surprisingly Salmond no longer mentions either them or his 'arc of prosperity' when discussing Scottish independence.
61

AM2,

Scotland,UK 06/07/2009 09:57:00
#71 Electric Hermit

An SNP spokesman said back in August 2007 that the SNP should “lead” the national conversation to “galvanise further support” for independence. That's its purpose. The SNP website referred to it as a “campaign”.
62

dunedin bully wee 1877,

06/07/2009 09:57:58
63 The Tin Man

“This is 'how government works'... in the Russian Federation, tavorish.”

What is a “tavorish”?

Did you mean this:

tovarich definition
to•va•rich or tovarish to•va'•rish (to vär'is?h; Russ to^ vär'is?hc?h)

noun
comrade

Etymology: Russ tovarishch, orig., tradesman or trading partner < tovar, wares for trading
63

,

06/07/2009 10:03:26
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Reason:
64

Yeah1,

06/07/2009 10:05:20
#70

"The Calman Commission was established following a democratic vote in the Scottish Parliament — specifically motion S3M-976 of 6/12/07."

Yes, surely considering the Calman Commission was set up following a democratic parliamentary vote the 'national conversation' should have also had a vote first?

Now it was included in the SNP manifesto but considering only 32% of the country voted for the SNP they really should have put it to a vote first before blowing £500,000 of taxpayers money on it. They didn't of course because they knew they would lose the vote.
65

Electric Hermit,

06/07/2009 10:05:33
72
AM2

"I believe you refer to it as the "national conversation" on independence."

Wrong again! It is simply called, The National Conversation. Because, unlike the Calman sham, no options for Scotland's future were either specified or excluded.

The National Conversation had the best mandate possible given that it was sanctioned by the Scottish people.

66

Arfur,

06/07/2009 10:05:51
National Conversation

Cost - £450k
Scope - Everything from Independence to more powers to status quo
Public involved - 50,000 hits on website
Public meetings - Yes
In manifesto - Yes



Calman Commission

Cost - £550k
Scope - Pre-determined by politicians
Public involved - Of course not
Public meetings - meetings with invites only
In manifesto's - No


If any of these are a waste of time it is the Calman Commission - yet those other wastes of time (folk like tin heed, stupid suzanne, the creature from the black roof ar$e) are too blinkered and stupid to realise this.
67

AM2,

Scotland,UK 06/07/2009 10:07:07
#71 Electric Hermit

Iain Gray recently dubbed it the “national embarrassment”. I can see why.

The (pre-approved) comment on the NAT CON website about “the best bit” of independence being “seeing the English go bankrupt” is perhaps the best example.
68

Electric Hermit,

06/07/2009 10:07:14
77
Yeah1

"...but considering only 32% of the country voted for the SNP..."

It was enough. According to rules devised by the unionist alliance.

69

muppetspotter,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 10:08:39
Hey, what's half a mil compared to the ego of a politician?

This attitude to oor cash is not exclusive to the SNP, - the only one I'd trust with it at the moment is Vince Cable and then only if he resigned from the LibDems
70

famous 15,

Edinburgh 06/07/2009 10:08:51
Norway with its oil is not doing too badly? If only you had listened!
71

AM2,

Scotland,UK 06/07/2009 10:08:59
#78 Electric Hermit

Wrong again. This page on the SNP's website refers to it as the “national conversation on independence”.

http://www.snp.org/campaigns/letscotlanddecide
72

Yeah1,

06/07/2009 10:13:47
#79

Calman Commission

Put to a democratic parliamentary vote - yes

National conversation

Put to a democratic parliamentary vote - no

73

ToniSwiss,

A Neutral Corner 06/07/2009 10:15:12
# 17 - Cynicus in Exile, 06/07/2009 01:20:41

Have just scanned the thread you linked to. Sorry, but Electric boy kicked your @ss big time. He clearly understands the mechanics of the minimum price proposals. Your posts are trivial and seem to be based on a few “toffee and a balloon” anomalies which are unlikely to exist in reality. Try raising your head to the horizon and seeing the bigger picture
74

Electric Hermit,

06/07/2009 10:15:27
80
AM2

"Iain Gray recently dubbed it the “national embarrassment”. I can see why"

That would make you just as infantile as Gray. There were, if memory serves, something approaching 5,000 comments on the National Conversation website. And you latch on to one piece of silliness.

What you and your pals in the Tory/BLP alliance fail to comprehend is that the National Conversation is totally open. Part of the price you pay for such openness is that you get all sorts of stuff coming through.

The Calman Commission was never going to have this problem.

75

AM2,

Scotland,UK 06/07/2009 10:18:50
#87 Electric Hermit

The comments are all pre-approved.

Others have included:

“the English living in Scotland are mostly here to enjoy retirement on the richer pickings they had available to them so let's take control of our own country”

“burn that union jack for all of them and for all the men and women of the isles who where made to do the ill deeds for a few greedy people”

“When ppl ask me why Scotland is not independent. I always say it will take a nation of millions to hold us back. That nation is England.”

A national disgrace.
76

John S,

06/07/2009 10:20:19
The National Conversation is the name given to the Scottish Government's public consultation exercise regarding possible future changes in the power of the devolved Scottish Parliament and the possibility of Scottish independence

The (Scottish) Government suggests that there are three principal choices to be considered in the National Conversation:
* Continuing with the current constitutional settlement with no or minimal change
* Extending devolved power in Scotland in areas identified during the National Conversation
* Taking the steps to allow Scotland to become a fully independent country
http://tiny.cc/BaRHw
77

ukrefusenik,

camelon 06/07/2009 10:21:06
#75
funnily enough , the poster cynicus in.... used Exactly that spelling about grahamski , either this is an alternative spelling or these two are using the exact same dodgy dictionary......hmmmn funny that
78

Electric Hermit,

06/07/2009 10:22:34
84
AM2

"Wrong again. This page on the SNP's website refers to it as the “national conversation on independence”."

You referred to it as the "national monologue". Your Tory/BLP alliance colleague, Gray, referred to it as the "national embarrassment". None of this alters what it actually was.

79

dunedin bully wee 1877,

06/07/2009 10:23:01
74 AM2,

The National Conversation is designed to be a forum to allow all strands of opinion on the future of the Scottish constitution to be expressed and considered.

Any views expressed by the Calman Commission could have been, and would have been accommodated within this forum.

Why was it deemed necessary to spend £500,000 (or whatever) of taxpayers’ money in order to help the Unionist parties form an opinion on which direction the future should go?

Are they incapable of thinking for themselves?
80

AM2,

Scotland,UK 06/07/2009 10:23:24
#79 Arfur

I’ve just opened the SNP’s 2007 manifesto and searched it for references to their so-called national conversation. The closest I could find is a veiled reference on page 8 to “preparations for offering Scots the opportunity to decide on independence”. Could you perhaps tell me where in their manifesto the NAT CON was explicitly referenced?
81

Electric Hermit,

06/07/2009 10:24:58
74
AM2

"An SNP spokesman said back in August 2007 that the SNP should “lead” the national conversation to “galvanise further support” for independence. That's its purpose. The SNP website referred to it as a “campaign”."

BREAKING NEWS: AM2 DISCOVERS SNP IS CAMPAIGNING FOR INDEPENDENCE!!!

82

AM2,

Scotland,UK 06/07/2009 10:28:27
#94 Electric Hermit

Make up your mind! Is it an open consultation or an independence campaign?
83

AM2,

Scotland,UK 06/07/2009 10:31:00
Anyway, I'll leave you to ponder that one. Bye for now...
84

Electric Hermit,

06/07/2009 10:31:26
88
AM2

Grow up! Freedom of expression often means we hear things we disagree with. Mature people can cope with this quite easily.

85

Electric Hermit,

06/07/2009 10:32:49
95
AM2

The National Conversation is a totally open consultation exercise. Unlike the Calman sham.

86

Electric Hermit,

06/07/2009 10:41:47
88
AM2

"The comments are all pre-approved."

So what? All that means is that the facility is not fully moderated. What did you think it meant?

87

John S,

06/07/2009 10:45:35
Websites
The National Conversation website has had more than 500,000 hits and recorded more than 4,500 comments.17 Jun 2009
36,500 people have read the white paper on-line; 10,800 downloads of the white paper. 12 March 2009
Calman Commission- This website had been used by over 13,000 different people (a total of over 130,000 page-views). 15 June 2009

Local Engagement Events.
National Conversation - 25 events held over the past year.17 Jun 2009
Calman Commission has held a total of 12 local engagement events around the country, the last listed as 30 March 2009.
88

Rob Royston,

06/07/2009 10:47:09
73 Yeah1

This so-called 'arc of prosperity' included Denmark, Finland, Norway and of course Iceland and Ireland.

The latter two of course have been amongst the countries worse hit by the credit crunch - not surprisingly Salmond no longer mentions either them or his 'arc of prosperity' when discussing Scottish independence."

Where would you rather live,

a, A small free country, surounded by a weathy ocean, well able to pay off the debts it's banks incurred in their dealings with London.

or

b, Scotland.
89

frank mcbride,

lusitania 06/07/2009 10:48:54
AM2/sm753 & Yeah1.

The Democratic mandate for the National Conversation was the result of the 2007 GE.

At this time the electorate voted, approximately, 54% for changes to the Scotland Act, while the rest (NuLab & Tory) voted for NO change.
The National Conversation was a SNP Manifesto which was carried out by the SNP Government.

The mandate for the Calman Commission, however, was tainted as one of the Parties supporting its being (LD) acquiesced in direct contradiction to its stated Manifesto commitment to the Steel Report.
The Steel Report could not be considered by Calman as it was outside its remit.

Further, The Calman Commission was set up by the Democratic will of the SP, but was restricted in its scope by Westminster interference, thus brining into question its validity as an instrument of the SP.

So, given the inclusive nature of, and the popular mandate for, the National Conversation versus the exclusive nature of, and the tainted mandate for, Calman, it would appear to most reasonable people that, rather than questions being asked about the cost of the NC, those questions should, more correctly, be asked about Calman.

But, there again, most people have become so inured to the misinformation and dissembling by the Unionist Alliance that this subject will be dismissed as, simply, more Unionist Alliance whinging.
90

Electric Hermit,

06/07/2009 11:02:05
98
Electric Hermit

CORRECTION

I mis-read this completely. Of course the National Conversation comment facility IS fully moderated. Some of the comments that the Unionist Alliance are whining about are actually perfectly harmless. Some of them are a bit distasteful. But I would rather a few distasteful comments slipped through than have the kind of censorship AM2 appears to want.

91

hoblar,

06/07/2009 11:02:31
Anybody that quotes Ian Gray is there toi be laughed at.

The 'joke' is Calman' a knee jerk by the dreadful vote losing unionist cabal, and even this effort would NOT have happened had Scotland voted for Labour in 2007, because McConnell (remember him?) and new Labour campaigned on the STATUS QUO and had they won they would have said it was a mandate for that alone.

The SNP on the other hand DIN'T campaign for the status quo, therefore weren't forced to modify their policies like the dreaded new labour blaggards.

As to the arc of prosperity, the UK is the worst of all isn't it?

Biggest debt burden per head in the world is the UK, so god knows why the desperate vote losing unionist types (all three of them) enjoy reminding us all of the enormous debt Brown's chancellory gave to us all.

The union dividend indeed.
92

Lee John,

06/07/2009 11:04:19
"The Minutes of the Engagement Task Group’s first meeting show the Ministry of Justice is to provide £500,000 to fund the Calman Commission."

Plus an extra £50,000

What is the story here?

Is there one?

I despair about the lack of anything of worth in this newspaper.

(Apart from all your comments of course!)
93

hoblar,

06/07/2009 11:07:53
"Which parliament gave the SNP’s national monologue any kind of mandate?"

The Scottish people did so by electing a Government mate. It is called democracy.

The sovereignty of parliament that you are so keen to invoke is not a Scottish concept rather than an English parliamentary one based on dictatorship rather than the sovereignty of the people.

Learn your history at least!

If you don't like it then you better ensure that your party, the rather rubbish labour, wins the next elections! lol
94

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/07/2009 11:09:19
That "one-sided conversation" quip is long past its sell-by date. The same old negativism that lost Labour the last election. They never learn!
95

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/07/2009 11:10:49
This is a bare-faced lie from Annabel Goldie:

"Support for independence is at an all-time low and support for Scotland's place in the Union at a high"
96

Electric Hermit,

06/07/2009 11:11:17
72
Yeah1

"Its interesting looking back through the 'national conversation' documents to see Alex Salmond mention in a speech his famous 'arc of prosperity'."

This is characteristic of the puerile pettiness of the Unionist Alliance. Were you not so blinkered you might recall that nobody queried or contradicted the "arc of prosperity" reference at the time.

It is said that it is easy to appear wise with hindsight. But somehow the Tory/BLP clique manage only to look more confused, small-minded and bereft of ideas.

97

,

06/07/2009 11:12:31
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98

JCA REID,

Annan 06/07/2009 11:14:58
It does seem a lot of dosh to have a conversation. It all depends what is added to the tab to make it look larger or, omit to try & bring the costs down, pending on the point of view that is to be supported. PM Brown took his Cabinet meetings outwith London - one to another major English city - & up to Inverness, or was it Fort William? Both trips costed millions!!
99

hoblar,

06/07/2009 11:15:03
"This is characteristic of the puerile pettiness of the Unionist Alliance. Were you not so blinkered you might recall that nobody queried or contradicted the "arc of prosperity" reference at the time."

And when they did, it was about a month later that the UK was shown to not only be more debt ridden per head, but also less able to handle the circumstances required to come out of the recession.....Scotland in particular being less able to influence our economic chances post depression.

So the arc of prosperity might see goading against the Scottish interest by the likes of Murphy, but the UK setting is that of an enormous Iceland as well.
100

Electric Hermit,

06/07/2009 11:16:41
107
connaughtboy

"This is a bare-faced lie from Annabel Goldie"

Goldie has to be considered a sad loss to Scottish politics now that she has thrown in her lot with the British Labour Party's placemen in Holyrood.

101

All or nothing,

06/07/2009 11:16:57
Can anyone post here, or do you have to be daft?
102

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/07/2009 11:18:00
#50 gus

I know of no-one.
103

frank mcbride,

lusitania 06/07/2009 11:22:28
#113, All or nothing.

You have answered your own question.

Whether you realise it, or not, will give you an indication of your status.
104

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/07/2009 11:24:09
69 AM2

Why would the National Conversation require a mandate from parliament?

The SNP are in power and are acting within the powers given to them by the people of Scotland. Quite simple really!
105

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/07/2009 11:26:25
72 Yeah1 writes:

"Its interesting looking back through the 'national conversation' documents to see Alex Salmond mention in a speech his famous 'arc of prosperity'."

Good to see this Unionist (Yeah1) getting involved in the National Conversation.
106

Electric Hermit,

06/07/2009 11:27:24
85
ToniSwiss

"Sorry, but Electric boy kicked your @ss big time. He clearly understands the mechanics of the minimum price proposals."

Thank you for that. It is not as if the proposals are all that complicated.

But that is another thread. Cynicus really had no business referring to it as it is not relevant here.

107

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/07/2009 11:27:35
73 AM2

Yes. And your point is?
108

Electric Hermit,

06/07/2009 11:30:52
119
connaughtboy

Seems that AM2 has only just cottoned on to the fact that the SNP is campaigning for independence.

Not that he's slow or anything...

109

Yeah1,

06/07/2009 11:34:18
#117

"Good to see this Unionist (Yeah1) getting involved in the National Conversation."

I'm not a unionist.
110

Lee John,

06/07/2009 11:36:47
121 Yeah 1

"I'm not a unionist"

You're also not a nationalist. What are you?
111

Yeah1,

06/07/2009 11:43:32
#123

Neither. I don't particularly care whether Scotland is independent or not and I'm undecided on which way I would vote in any referendum.

I don't particularly like the SNP though - I find their leader to be smug, arrogant and power-hungry, and their supporters, on this board at least, to be fanatical and unable to accept their party and its MPs/MSPs ever does anything wrong, or makes any mistakes or is incorrect about something - thats not a healthy way in which to behave - fanatical support should be for football teams, not political parties.
112

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/07/2009 11:43:42
121 If it looks like a Unionist, cringes like a Unionist and writes like a Unionist, it is a Unionist.
113

frank mcbride,

lusitania 06/07/2009 11:45:22
#123, Lee John.

He's a newspaper troll.
114

Electric Hermit,

06/07/2009 11:47:58
125
connaughtboy

"If it looks like a Unionist, cringes like a Unionist and writes like a Unionist, it is a Unionist."

You might have added, if it has the distorted perspective of a unionist...

115

Electric Hermit,

06/07/2009 11:53:44
125
connaughtboy

"If it looks like a Unionist, cringes like a Unionist and writes like a Unionist, it is a Unionist."

Having said all that, we should note that there is nothing wrong with being a unionist. There is nothing at all objectionable about arguing against secession by advancing a considered, rational case for Scotland remaining within the union.

Trouble is, I've yet to encounter that kind of unionist. All we ever get is mindless negativity and petty, quibbling and often downright dishonest attacks on the Scottish government, the SNP and anyone who favours independence.

116

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/07/2009 12:02:08
128 Electric Hermit

So true. And if you want to point to a perfect example of mindless negativity, petty and quibling, then look no further than Ian Gray!
117

,

06/07/2009 12:08:06
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118

,

06/07/2009 12:10:46
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119

Lee John,

06/07/2009 12:17:25
Yeah 1

"I find their leader to be smug, arrogant and power-hungry"

(Response) Would you rather have the incompetent Gray?

"Their supporters, on this board at least, to be fanatical and unable to accept their party and its MPs/MSPs ever does anything wrong"

(Response) Some actually do. I've been reading comments here for some time and some independence supporters have challenged the alcohol suggestions (as an example). I find some unionists doing the same. It's a "my party right or wrong" type of thing.
120

nova albion 3,

06/07/2009 12:22:58
So. the British taxpayer is paying £500,000 for the snp to talk to itself! maybe whilst having this conversation with themselves they could ask themselves why they have not had a referendum on Scottish independence. If you are going to have one could you please get on with it,as we in England wish to know if we are going to be 30 billion quid richer!
121

Lee John,

06/07/2009 12:25:32
133

I think the referendum is scheduled for next year. That is probably the reason they haven't had it yet. It was in all the papers.
122

,

06/07/2009 12:28:55
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123

Electric Hermit,

06/07/2009 12:36:15
130
spagan

"Many of us in the SNP are critical of elements of policy..."

Support for faith schools is my biggest objection.

"...and some of our members can embarrass us at times."

I am not a member of the SNP. But I can certainly agree that some of the utterances of independence campaigners can be extremely cringe-worthy.

This is going to happen when everybody is free to speak their mind and not constrained to sing from the party hymn-sheet as the Tory/BLP drones are.

Notice how they all jumped on the bandwagon of this latest piece of anti-SNP propaganda regarding the cost of the National Conversation. So unaccustomed are they to thinking for themselves and/or questioning what their leaders in the Unionist Alliance tell them, that it didn't occur to any of them that this propaganda must inevitably prompt questions about the cost of the Calman Commission.

Also evident in this is the sheer arrogance of the unionist cabal. They simply take it for granted that they can squander taxpayers' money on a rigged and redundant pseudo-consultation exercise. They genuinely never expected anyone to challenge them on this. Even when they so stupidly broached the subject by their ill-thought propagandising against the Scottish government.

And to cap it all, they seriously imagine that the people of Scotland either don't notice the negativity, smear tactics, hypocrisy and double-standards, or they simply don't care what the Scottish electorate thinks of them.

The next two years will be a painful wake-up call for these people.

124

,

06/07/2009 12:41:07
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125

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 06/07/2009 12:43:07
with Calman .The national conversation , expenses , arc of Prosperity ,all the hot wind and air matters not a jot.
The Scottish people will decide the outcomes of all over the coming 2 or 3 years .
I fully anticipate a large increase in the number of SNP MPs after next GE.
This popularity will carry on to the Scottish election .
The increase yet again of SNP MSPs will force the hand of the Liberals to back a referendum.
Then the choice is their for the Scottish nation .
126

Electric Hermit,

06/07/2009 12:43:38
133
nova albion 3

So the British taxpayer is paying £500,000 for the Unionist Alliance to talk to itself! Maybe whilst having this conversation with themselves they could ask themselves why they are so afraid of a referendum on Scottish independence. Despite this, we will have one in 2010, as we in Scotland wish to know when we are going to be richer in ways that cannot be measured in mere money!

127

Electric Hermit,

06/07/2009 12:45:30
137
spagan

"The main goal is independence..."

Absolutely! We can sort out the faith schools issue once the New Scottish Enlightenment begins.

128

John S,

06/07/2009 12:49:33
#124:Yeah1 and #136 Electric Hermit, I also object to faith schools, I am a Catholic and I support the aims of the SNP.
129

John S,

06/07/2009 12:52:19
#133 nova albion 3:The plan is that legislation paving the way for the referendum will be introduced at the Scottish parliament on January 25 2010 - Burns Day and if passed the poll will be set for November 30 2010 or at least a day during St Andrew's week.
130

n/,

Perth 06/07/2009 12:55:50

Why is it when SNP supporters appear and make comment on these postings ,we then see so many of these?

'Comment Removed By AdministratorReason:
131

Electric Hermit,

06/07/2009 12:58:45
143
n/

"Why is it when SNP supporters appear and make comment on these postings ,we then see so many of these?

'Comment Removed By AdministratorReason: "

How do you know the removed posts are not by some of our more rabid contributors from the Unionist Alliance?

132

Electric Hermit,

Scotland 06/07/2009 13:01:24
141
John S

"I also object to faith schools..."

Seems to be a growing movement. Maybe Alex Salmond should take heed.

133

Number 6,

Germany 06/07/2009 13:06:26
The Policy Free "Opposition" continue on their hectoring way. What a bunch of whinging children they are.
134

Lee John,

06/07/2009 13:14:16
143 n/

"
Why is it when SNP supporters appear and make comment on these postings ,we then see so many of these?

'Comment Removed By AdministratorReason: "

Why is it it that our unionist posters keep coming back with more ridiculous sign-in names? Who on earth are you?
135

The Master 2,

06/07/2009 13:18:46
The Scotsman really should conduct a poll to ask what the "national conversation" is. I'd lay odds now that the answer would come back that it must be a promotional exercise for one of the mobile phone companies.

Separatism is a lost cause: Supernat has not been able to translate his personal popularity into support for his supposedly central objective and the "national conversation" is merely aimed at pleasing the Nats themselves; a £500,000 navel gazing exercise.
136

,

06/07/2009 13:22:24
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137

Electric Hermit,

06/07/2009 13:25:47
150
spagan

"I think that progressing such issues now would do more harm than good."

You are right, of course. Focusing on the issue of faith schools would be a totally unnecessary distraction at this time.

138

Electric Hermit,

06/07/2009 13:31:50
148
The Master 2

"Separatism is a lost cause..."

Is that what passes for penetrating political analysis in your village?

Are you truly so ill-informed as to be unaware that SNP policy is independence in Europe. There is nothing "separatist" about it.

Secession is not about separating from anything other than an archaic and redundant union with its corrupt, centralist, obsessively secretive and increasingly repressive political system.

139

Scottish and Proud,

glasgow 06/07/2009 14:05:45
152 Hermit , why bother wasting your breath on these people trying to get these rabid Unionists to see the light is akin to signing on to a Celtic thread and trying to make them all Rangers supporters.

Even with pending political relegation they are hanging on to mother parliament
140

The Master 2,

06/07/2009 14:06:21
#152 Hermit: " Secession is not about separating from anything other than an archaic and redundant union with its corrupt, centralist, obsessively secretive and increasingly repressive political system."

What you write surely applies more to the EU than the UK. Why oh why are you Nutty Nats so anti UK but pro EU? It's a peculiar stance, as no truly Nationalist party would one separatism from one wider political organisation but not another. The truth is that, for the vast majority of Scots, Scotland's membership of the UK is about as controversial as its membership of the EU.
141

John S,

06/07/2009 14:07:49
#150:spagan-You are correct, we should focus on independence first.
142

Electric Hermit,

06/07/2009 14:08:23
153
Scottish and Proud

"Even with pending political relegation they are hanging on to mother parliament"

An apt phrase. I may plagiarise shamelessly.

143

nova albion 3,

06/07/2009 14:11:25
139. LOL! you really are a nat-nut,as for us unionist being "ill-informed" think you will find it is you who are ill-informed, have you any idea what leaving the UK will entail?

1. As with the break up of the Soviet Union,Russia took all the power that was originally with the Soviet Union,as will London.

2. At least 30% of north sea oil is in English waters,so the most oil Scotland will have is 70%, this is not enough to sustain any kind of independence.

3. With a population of only 5.1 million people the taxes to support the 30 billion which Scotland recieves from the UK government would be enormous.
144

,

06/07/2009 14:16:33
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145

,

06/07/2009 14:21:47
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146

Lianachan,

Highlands 06/07/2009 14:31:04
#124 Yeah1

I'm not an SNP supporter myself, but I am passionately in favour of Scotland gaining full independence. Despite disagreeing with a few of their policies, I think they've done a generally good job in power (certainly better than any previous Scottish governments), and they do continue to seem to be the easiest route to independence. Gain that, and then sort out a government to run the place is the way I look at it.
147

nova albion 3,

06/07/2009 14:48:14
159. These are not "scare" stories they are FACT! please tell me how Scotland will sustain independence without the 30 billion from westminster and only 70% of north sea oil!
148

nova albion 3,

06/07/2009 14:58:48
Rufus is a great guy,he tells it as it is unlike the nats. You can always tell when they are running scared,either you get deleted,or they hurl abuse at you,either way it's the act of a petulant child.
149

Yeah1,

06/07/2009 15:03:05
#160

"I'm not an SNP supporter myself, but I am passionately in favour of Scotland gaining full independence."

Thats the difference - I don't particularly care about whether Scotland gains independence or not.

Independence would make very little difference, if any, to my life and the lives of the vast majority of Scots.

It is not a magical 'cure-all' for Scotland's woes as some on here appear to believe - Scotland will still have crime, poverty and other such problems if it gains independence.

Personally I feel there are more important world-wide issues to be concerned about than whether a tiny country gains independence or not.

It may be difficult for some of the fanatical SNP supporters on here to understand, but just because I don't like the SNP it doesn't automatically make me a dreaded 'unionist' or a 'labour' supporter - as Lianachan has shown there are independence supporters who don't support the SNP, and there are those like me who don't care one way or the other.
150

,

06/07/2009 15:09:27
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151

Lianachan,

Highlands 06/07/2009 15:26:29
#163 Finnzz

"This constant sniping by pro-unionist publications on the day-to-day performance and aspirations of the Scottish Government demonstrate a clear fear that Westminster and its controlling factions will soon lose its Scottish honeypot."

That is very true. Those in favour of the union tend not to bother trying to argue postively for it, preferring just to attack independence.
152

frank mcbride,

lusitania 06/07/2009 15:57:43
#162, Yeah 1.

Perhaps more people would take your claim, here, more seriously if you brought more integrity to your comments.

You consistently regurgitate the Unionist Alliance/Scotsman line and, you constantly hide behind your mantra of "not liking the SNP", particularly AS.
153

Yeah1,

06/07/2009 16:29:17
#166

If I was a 'unionist' or a Scotsman insider or whatever it is you are accusing me of being, I would admit to it.
154

BIG EYE,

Paisley 06/07/2009 16:34:13
Unlike Calman at least whatever comes out of the National Conversation will have the support of those who set it up.

Quite unbelievable that the creators of the Calman commission now appear to be its most severe opponents!
155

Scotsman in Dublin,

06/07/2009 16:47:34
#159 nova albion 3, so let me get this straight. You believe that Scotland survives currently based on handouts from the UK goverment? What I cant understand about people like you is how little you think of your own country. Do you think that Oil is the only thing that the country has going for it, I wonder how other small independant countries survive without Oil or a generous benefactor like England?
156

nova albion 3,

06/07/2009 16:59:34
169. Apart from oil,whisky and a few tourist what else has scotland got?
157

Lee John,

06/07/2009 17:12:25
173 nova albion the third.

Not you, so for that we can be grateful.
158

nova albion 3,

06/07/2009 17:15:24
174. Don't be so sure matey!
159

Lee John,

06/07/2009 17:17:48
175 na3

But you have told us loads of times you live in England.
My posts stands. Next?
160

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/07/2009 17:19:20
Who was red penned ?
161

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/07/2009 17:22:33
69 Question for you:

Who gave the unionist parties the democratic mandate to establish the Calman Commission ? It wasn't in any of their manifestos. In fact it wasn't even a twinkle in their eye before the SNP became the minority Govt.
162

dunedin bully wee 1877,

06/07/2009 17:24:58
173 nova albion 3,

“Apart from oil,whisky and a few tourist what else has scotland got?”

Gas, water, coal, renewable energy, shipbuilding, electronics, software, fish, beef, lamb, poultry, fruit, vegetables, agrarian crops, beer, vodka, pharmaceuticals, universities, innovation, culture, music, poetry, history, sense of identity, Andy Murray, scenery, respect throughout the world...............

I have probably missed out a lot, what more do we need?
163

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/07/2009 17:25:06
76 Exactly. The National Conversation was included in the SNP's manifesto. The Calman Commission wasn't in anyone's manifesto.

Conclusion - the SNP did what it said on the tin, the other parties reacted.
164

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/07/2009 17:28:28
AM2 you seem a bit confused. It's a consultation, most Governments do it, it's generally held to be a good thing. Some of the respondents may be a bit loopy, but that only proves the point that some people are a bit loopy, which I think we already knew.
165

dunedin bully wee 1877,

06/07/2009 17:32:29
#179 (cont)


Apart from Independence!


166

nova albion 3,

06/07/2009 17:32:58
179. A hell of a lot! most countries have that (apart from murray,and you don't really have him seeing he decided to buy his new home in England)
167

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/07/2009 17:34:20
Ah it was Rufus who was red penned. I wonder what his next moniker will be.
168

Lee John,

06/07/2009 17:36:39
na3

"A hell of a lot! most countries have that (apart from murray,and you don't really have him seeing he decided to buy his new home in England) "

Another fantastic export from Scotland.
169

Lee John,

06/07/2009 17:36:57
Why was Rufus red-penned?
170

dunedin bully wee 1877,

06/07/2009 17:41:29
177 Observer,,

Seemingly Rufus has been binned.

I do not actually approve of that as I believe that his (?) posts should be retained as a matter of record of the usual standard of the drivelling Unionist stupidity.
171

nova albion 3,

06/07/2009 17:42:50
185. LOL. Another scot who realizes which side his bread is buttered on!
172

nova albion 3,

06/07/2009 17:45:24
187. Well tell that to your nat henchmen!
173

dunedin bully wee 1877,

06/07/2009 17:45:25
183 nova albion 3,

“ A hell of a lot! most countries have that”

We only wish to be like “most countries”.

And what would be wrong with that?
174

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/07/2009 17:59:42
190 Well Johnston Press have a very strange policy is all I can say.

Anyway Rufus haste ye back (sorry couldn't resist it).
175

dunedin bully wee 1877,

06/07/2009 18:00:11
190 Cynicus in Exile,

Have you any evidence that Rufus was not binned by his fellow Unionists who were too embarrassed by him (?) posting in their name?
176

Lee John,

06/07/2009 18:04:33
I find Rufus amusing at times. It's obvious he doesn't believe everything he types. A lot is put in as a wind-up. To be honest, Rufus was one of the reasons I decided to post over here. I'm sure he'll return.
177

Scotsman in Dublin,

06/07/2009 18:13:58
188 nova albion 3,
Why so much contempt for Scotland?
178

dunedin bully wee 1877,

06/07/2009 18:17:44
193 Lee John,

“I find Rufus amusing at times”

As I have done also, but always with a certain degree of guilt, as if I was being entertained by the inmates of the local “lunatic asylum”.
179

nova albion 3,

06/07/2009 18:34:23
194. Contempt! more concern would be a more accurate assumption.
180

Scotsman in Dublin,

06/07/2009 18:37:44
#196, No I think Contempt is more accurate. What do think it is that is wrong with Scotland that it could not survive without England propping it up?
181

nova albion 3,

06/07/2009 18:44:39
197. With a population of only 5.1 million people the taxes to support the 30 billion which Scotland recieves from the UK government would be enormous.
182

Scotsman in Dublin,

Back in Scotland 06/07/2009 18:54:11
#198, yeh you keep repeating the same thing about population, answer the question.

Other countries manage, whats wrong with Scotland?
183

dunedin bully wee 1877,

06/07/2009 18:56:32
198 nova albion 3,

“30 billion which Scotland” recieves” (sic) from the UK government would be enormous”

Which £30 Billon would that be again?

Do explain.
184

Brianwci,

06/07/2009 19:11:24
All this talk resembles the smoke, noise and gunfire of a battlefield out of which emerges this huge tank which continues to roll towards its destination, Independence, almost oblivious of the noise and fire directed towards it.

No wonder the Brit Nat unionists are going off their nut.
185

Lee John,

06/07/2009 19:12:03
Imagine. Nearly 1,000 prisoners not returning to open prisons in England. Two went missing here and all hell broke loose. Could the unionists here explain the difference?
186

Lee John,

06/07/2009 19:12:41
Numbers out AGAIN! Somebody already HAD 200!
187

,

06/07/2009 19:16:48
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188

nova albion 3,

06/07/2009 19:17:41
198.The cash will come out of the £30 billion annual block grant to the Scottish Parliament from Westminster, which includes payments made under the Barnett Formula. THAT 30 BILLION!
189

,

06/07/2009 19:19:12
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190

,

06/07/2009 19:20:00
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191

,

06/07/2009 19:22:16
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192

SECESSION NOW,

06/07/2009 19:22:30
Doubless to confirm his pathetic cowardice he will delete these posts as well.

When you are losing the argument shoot the messenger and close down dissenting voices.

The Third Reich book of imperialistic oppression.
193

SECESSION NOW,

06/07/2009 19:25:46
#208. Perhaps you would care to expand your earth moving arguments so we can all benefit from your silo of unionist wisdom?
194

SECESSION NOW,

06/07/2009 19:27:13
#208.

Or are you of the Robertson, Scottish Independence = Bangladesh school of propaganda.
195

Scotsman in Dublin,

Back in Scotland 06/07/2009 19:29:15
#203, Mr Nova, do you think that you could put all the numbers aside for one moment and answer my original question. There are countries of smaller size than Scotland that are an economic success.

So once again, what it is that you think is wrong with Scotland that it needs England to prop it up?
196

nova albion 3,

06/07/2009 19:29:53
204. Rubbish you say, well the 30 billion block grant each year ain't rubbish,and the amount the scots would have to pay in taxes ain't rubbish,oh and,the 70% of oil in scottish waters ain't rubbish! so basically you must be talking rubbish all the way from OZ!
197

Scotsman in Dublin,

06/07/2009 19:31:30
#208, and on what do you base this???
198

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 06/07/2009 19:31:50
Malaclypse the Younger. Do you eat manure?
199

nova albion 3,

06/07/2009 19:34:10
212. Perhaps you should tell me as you are a scot in Dublin,is Scotland not good enough for you!
200

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 06/07/2009 19:38:14
nova. Do you have the same diet as Malaclypse?
201

Lee John,

06/07/2009 19:41:55
Nova

Why decry someone for living abroad and discussing Scotland? You mentioned a week or two back that you live in England. ¿Verdad?
202

Lee John,

06/07/2009 19:42:25
Onward the revolution.
203

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 06/07/2009 19:45:03
I heard that Malaclypse's brother thought he was on his bike. His name is Psychloclypse.
204

nova albion 3,

06/07/2009 19:49:24
217. Think you need to read up on a few facts.

1. At least 30% of UK oil is in English waters
2. England (mainly London)contributes 12.5 billion pound to Scotland.
3.To replace the 12.5 billion pounds from England every working Scot would have to pay 30p in the pound.
205

Darien,

Panama 06/07/2009 19:50:52
"SNP blasted for spending £500,000 on National Conversation"

Scots Unionists (aka Brit-Nats) should be blasted for:

- wasting £1m+ on Calman's Quisling Committee
- throwing away £500m (and rising) on trams nobody wants
- chucking awa £4bn (and rising) on carriers
- extracting the pi** from voters with their expenses at Westmidden
- wasting billions on pointless 'wars'
- countless other waste examples (e.g. House of Lards, EBC, London Olympics, bailing out City of London banks holding toxic debt mostly outside Scotland, etc etc etc)
- wasting Scots oil money on unemployment benefit - again!

Independence will mean Scots can finally get rid of all this waste. Its rather obvious really. (Still the expression 'Duh' and Scots-Unionists fit well together)
206

nova albion 3,

06/07/2009 19:51:45
219. As England and Scotland make up the majority of the UK,we are not abroad.
207

nova albion 3,

06/07/2009 19:53:57
223. Another nat nut job.
208

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 06/07/2009 19:56:57
Aye 222, nova. Yer on a perch. Who's a pretty boy?

Yawn. Keep repeating it - nobody is listening any more.

Eat manure, spout manure.

Nice film on the recorder. Think I'll go and watch that.
209

nova albion 3,

06/07/2009 19:57:02
Good night all.
210

nova albion 3,

06/07/2009 20:03:44
How much is Scottish oil worth Scottish Oil is worth £22,831 a minute, £32 million a day, £12 billion a year. some what short of the 30 billion you get from westminster!
211

Scotsman in Dublin,

Back in Scotland 06/07/2009 20:03:48
#216, well thats where you have it wrong again, I live and work in Scotland, old username, but because I used to live in Ireland I have been able to see first hand that a Nation of less than 5 million were perfectly able to run their country. I didnt notice any crippling taxes, and no block grant coming from generous benefactor England.

How many times do I have to ask you, whats wrong with Scotland that we wouldnt be capable of building our own economy and running our own affairs? Its a very simple question and I have asked you about 4 times now and you still havent answered - just resorted to an attempted and seriously backfired insult.
212

Scotsman in Dublin,

06/07/2009 20:19:49
#224, so it comes out, you who wrongly criticised me for commenting while not living in Scotland actually lives in England! Now it all makes sense, you probably spend your days apologising for being Scottish and thanking your betters for supplying wads of cash for the 3rd world in the North.

So I have to go now but I will look in tomorrow for your enlightened answer to my question which I will ask for the 5th time.

Put aside all your debatable figures and propoganda just for a moment and explain to me in simple terms why Scotland is not capable of supporting its own needs and running its own affairs? Is it the land itself, is it too barren and devoid of resources? Are the people to stupid? Are we in the wrong location?

I will look in tomorrow for your enlightened answer (or more likely I will get more drivel about England subsidising Scotland).
213

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/07/2009 20:40:52
Smee has it ever ocurred to you that in knocking Scotland you are actually doing the nationalists a favour ? You are not exactly promoting the benefits of the Union are you - comparing us to the US rustbelt.

Please carry on.
214

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/07/2009 20:45:50
Your analysis Smee seems based on the fact that Scotland will somehow keep on doing the same old same post independence. Why would anyone do that ? Surely the point of independence is to organise and manage things in a Scotland-centric way instead of a London-centric way. So a lot of your assumptions are simply wrong.

I venture to suggest that in re-ordering priorities and ensuring that fiscal policies were geared towards Scotland's unique needs, as opposed to the UK's wider ones, we could actually manage fairly well.
215

,

06/07/2009 21:08:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
216

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

06/07/2009 22:14:21
#138 Electric Hermit

"Despite this, we will have one in 2010, as we in Scotland wish to know when we are going to be richer in ways that cannot be measured in mere money!"

One Hundred and Eiiiiightyyyyyy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
217

ukrefusenik,

camelon 06/07/2009 23:01:36
i used to get censored all the time , i found the way to avoid this is to dilute your views until they are so anodyne that they dont get read by anyone .
avoid any mention of who you might blame for poisoning the worlds well in the middle east (they will sicc their paid cyber hell hounds on you , your moniker will be torn to pieces )
just try to blend into the background .oh yeah, and dont try to to be too illuminating
remember ,if you cut through the mirk ,

they can see you
218

Officer Romurai,

07/07/2009 07:33:18
How much are Labour subverting too "outside" contractors too nobble online forums, newsgroups, politicians, democracy and creating talking shops and window dressing that is more suitable for Romania circa 1986?

But we yet see this paper asking these questions. Please do? You would be doing your job.


 

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