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SNP to woo Lib Dems on local income tax plans

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Published Date: 08 August 2008
SNP ministers are prepared to do a deal with the Liberal Democrats which could see every council in Scotland set its own income tax rate, it emerged yesterday.
The Scottish Government wants to introduce a nationally-set local income tax of 3p in the pound to replace the council tax, but its proposals have come in for heavy and sustained criticism since their publication earlier this year.

Business groups
, councils, some unions, student groups and opposition politicians have all railed against the proposals, championed by John Swinney, the finance secretary, claiming that they will not raise enough money and will damage the economy.

However, it is now understood that ministers are prepared to change their plans to secure the parliamentary backing they need.

As the SNP is running the Scottish Government as a minority administration, it needs the support of one of the other main parties to get its plans through. The Lib Dems support the principle of a local income tax, but are adamant that it must be set locally, by individual councils, rather than by the Scottish Government at 3p in the pound.

All three contenders for the leadership of the Scottish Lib Dems confirmed yesterday that this remained their position, and all insisted that they would not compromise on the principle of a "local" income tax.

But the Scottish Government, which is currently digesting the results of the highly critical consultation process on its tax plans, appears to be ready to move in the Lib Dems' direction.

A senior government source yesterday told The Scotsman that there was room for compromise on the issue.

He said Scottish ministers were "very keen" to sit down and debate the issue with the new Lib Dem leader and "discuss where this issue might go".

The source added that ministers might be prepared to accept a locally-set tax after the national tax has been allowed to "bed in" for a few years.

While the source refused to go further, his comments give an indication of the Scottish Government's willingness to move, at least some way, towards the Lib Dems' position.

However, ministers were warned by business leaders last night that this would be "even worse" for the country because it would lead to more bureaucracy and confusion.

Colin Borland, from the Federation of Small Businesses in Scotland, said his organisation was already opposed to the SNP's plans for a nationally-set tax, because of the impact it would have on businesses and taxpayers.

But he said that, if the SNP compromised its plans and agreed to the Lib Dems' demands for a locally-set tax, it could lead to 32 different rates, one for each council area in the country.

Mr Borland said: "The big fear is over the cost of bureaucracy. It will be bad enough with one rate for the entire country, but there could be 32 different rates.

"If you have a business in Glasgow you could have three employees, one from Glasgow, one from Renfrewshire and one from East Renfrewshire. That's three different sets of paperwork."

The Lib Dems have backed the idea of a local income tax for many years. However, there were suggestions yesterday that this position might be about to change south of the Border.

Vince Cable, the party's UK Treasury spokesman, was reported to be keen on reforming the council tax, rather than introducing a whole new tax system.

But even if Mr Cable did manage to change party policy in England, it would not alter the position of the party in Scotland.

Parties agree on principle but differ on details of tax

What are the SNP's plans for a local income tax?


The SNP wants to scrap the council tax and replace it with a local income tax, set nationally at 3p in the pound.

What are the Liberal Democrats proposing?

The Liberal Democrats also favour a local income tax, but want each council to set its own rate for the tax.

What are the advantages of this?

The Lib Dems argue that there needs to be local accountability and the best way to do this is for councils to have responsibility for setting the tax rate.

What are the disadvantages?

Critics have warned that this will lead to increased bureaucracy and confusion over who should be paying which rate. There are 32 local authorities in Scotland, and it is feasible that all councils set different rates from their neighbours.

What will it mean for someone who works in one council area and lives in another?

People will pay the tax at their home address, with the information coming from their business in another area, which will inevitably lead to increased bureaucracy.









Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 07 August 2008 9:43 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish National Party
 
1

AM2,

Scotland,UK 07/08/2008 23:53:42
The 3% fixed-rate LIT from the SNP manifesto allegedly falls foul of both the Scotland Act and the European Charter of Local Self-Government, which says:

“Part at least of the financial resources of local authorities shall derive from local taxes and charges of which, within the limits of statute, they have the power to determine the rate.”

So this isn’t news. Despite the statement by Alex Salmond’s spokesman that “the local income tax will be 3p, not any more or less”, the SNP now has few options.

But even if they can cut a deal with the Lib Dems, what of the SNP’s earlier statement that “a nationally set tax makes more sense, removing the potential additional burden of administering a range of different tax codes for their staff”?

A variable rate creates a huge burden. How would it affect our competitiveness?

And with organisations as diverse as the NUS, Scottish TUC, Unison, CBI Scotland and the Institute of Directors all having been opposed to even the simpler and cheaper form of LIT, what’s the chance of this coming to be seen as an improvement on the now discredited manifesto pledge?
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08/08/2008 00:00:39
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08/08/2008 00:01:04
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08/08/2008 00:05:14
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Coileach an taobh Tuath,

08/08/2008 00:05:56
1 AM2, Scotland,UK 07/08/2008 23:53:42

“Part at least of the financial resources of local authorities shall derive from local taxes and charges of which, within the limits of statute, they have the power to determine the rate.”

Local Government would still collect/vary business rates and second home rates

"A variable rate creates a huge burden. "

The article reports that the SNP might be prepared to accept a locally-set tax after the national tax has been allowed to "bed in" for a few years......

Good compromise, get LIT up and running then pilot localised rates.



6

Coileach an taobh Tuath,

08/08/2008 00:07:14

Mike Watson

7

Coileach an taobh Tuath,

08/08/2008 00:20:49

From the Scotland's People Survey 2007.
Includes all adults for whom household income is known or has been imputed.
Household income in the SHS is that of the highest income householder and their partner only


20% of Households in Scotland earn less than £10k
Band A Council Tax (Glasgow) £800
LIT @ 3% is £140


20% of Households in Scotland earn £10-15k
Band A Council Tax (Glasgow) £800
LIT @ 3% would mean between £140- 290


27% of Households in Scotland earn £15-25k
Band A Council Tax (Glasgow) £800
LIT @ 3% would mean between £290-590


9% of Households in Scotland earn £25-30k
Band A Council Tax (Glasgow) £800
LIT @ 3% would mean between £590-740


13% of Households in Scotland earn £30-40k
Band C Council Tax (Glasgow) £1070
LIT @ 3% would mean between £740-1040


10% of Households in Scotland earn over £40k
Band D Council Tax (Glasgow) £1200
LIT @ 3% would mean between £1040 +




8

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08/08/2008 00:23:52
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Conan the Librarian™,

08/08/2008 00:26:01
9
Are you an ordinary, everyday elector?

Or just a wee bit special?
10

AM2,

Scotland,UK 08/08/2008 00:26:30
#4 Guga II

This article was published at 9:43pm. Look at the footer.
11

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08/08/2008 00:30:27
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 08/08/2008 00:30:35
Oompa Loompa, Alex Armstrong, p e c, McPravda blog, Tripod, Kandy Man and probably others are all the same person. Nothing whatsoever to do with me.

And please DON'T shut down the thread tonight.
13

AM2,

Scotland,UK 08/08/2008 00:32:22
#12 Ken_Fitlike

Your spin would appear to be somewhat out of date.

Here’s John Swinney, speaking about the non-local Local Income Tax in June 2007: “90 per cent of Scots would benefit from our proposals.”

But here’s an SNP consultation document from March 2008: “under a LIT, 67% of Scottish households would have experienced an increase in net income.”

Not much use if it’s illegal, though. Is it?
14

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 08/08/2008 00:32:35
AM2 / Scotsman employee

What would you propose for local taxation?

Would you like to see the continuation of the unfair Council Tax?
Would you want the Council Tax to be reformed in some way. If so what?
Would you want to see the introduction of a Property or Land Tax?
Anything else?

Or are you just a partisan critic happy to snipe at any SNP policy, but unable to offer any real solutions or proposals?
15

frank mcbride,

lusitania 08/08/2008 00:33:19
# AM2.

LIT, as proposed by the SNP, is legal as there will continue to be Local taxation, variable and set locally.

16

Conan the Librarian™,

08/08/2008 00:34:10
11
Oompa Loompa, in the words of a great philosopher, Gettifah yebassah.
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08/08/2008 00:35:02
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08/08/2008 00:35:41
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AM2,

Scotland,UK 08/08/2008 00:37:41
#18 Andrew BOD

Yes, I like the “unfair council tax”.

I also like “illegal wars”, “taxes on ill-health”, our nuclear deterrent - sorry, I mean our “WMDs”, “London Labour”, my “war crimes”, the “anti-Scottish alliance” of unionist parties and the “historic” concordat.

Anything involving manipulative rhetoric, I like! ;-)

Enough. Goodnight!
20

Conan the Librarian™,

08/08/2008 00:42:52
27
That's fighting talk where I come from Alex...
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08/08/2008 00:44:00
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Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 08/08/2008 00:47:11
24 AM2

You've managed to avoid the question again. The Council Tax is unfair for many people, and this has been recognised by politicians of all parties. So please don't go off in a sarcastic rant because I stated the obvious.

Just give a considered view for a change.
23

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08/08/2008 00:51:07
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Conan the Librarian™,

08/08/2008 00:57:57
34
Nothing to do with David Banks then? Hatstand.
25

,

08/08/2008 01:00:48
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Conan the Librarian™,

08/08/2008 01:00:58
40
Bitterness?

Tell us more.
27

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08/08/2008 01:02:25
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08/08/2008 01:03:30
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08/08/2008 01:03:53
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Conan the Librarian™,

08/08/2008 01:05:47
45
Yes we all know how it is done; just not why.
31

Conan the Librarian™,

08/08/2008 01:10:25
47
Hee Hee

I'm on a payroll, rejoice!

Er...where do I get the money...?
32

Conan the Librarian™,

08/08/2008 01:12:51
47
Er sorry but "do one"? I know I'm being paid and all, but...
33

ruglenn,

ruglen 08/08/2008 01:13:39
You cannot deny that this is simply another SNP piece of political brilliance!

By the way, how can I comment on Ranger's current plight and suggest a way forward for the third best team in Glasgow? I cannot believe that, not for the first time, the Scotsman is protecting the favourite team of your third rate journalist English!
34

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08/08/2008 01:17:55
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Conan the Librarian™,

08/08/2008 01:22:24
53
Or somebody who kept his eyes open?

Google me if you wish, and see such a unionist am I.
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08/08/2008 01:24:26
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Conan the Librarian™,

08/08/2008 01:24:48
55
Sweet zombie jebus. Grammar not blong me.
38

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08/08/2008 01:29:08
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Conan the Librarian™,

08/08/2008 01:38:12
54
If that is so, I can understand your hostility.

Another respected cybernat Col.Blimp has had the same problem.

But it wisnae me.
40

Am Balach,

Isle of Skye 08/08/2008 02:03:50
Land Value Tax is the fair solution - I note that Vince Cable is a supporter, it is Green Party policy, and it is a truly just form of taxation, that will help stimulate the economy and create better communities.

I hope the SNP government are considering this seriously, as they negotiate with other parties.


Good links:

http://www.feasta.org/documents/landhousing/ppleaflet.pdf

http://www.libdemsalter.org.uk/Spring07GreenLVTnote.doc

http://www.greenparty.ca/en/node/2610

http://www.earthrights.net/docs/pa-farmers.html


41

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 08/08/2008 03:49:37
*1 - They can still raise part of their finance using business rates which they can manipulate - making the 'capping' of the income tax quite above board - don't you think ?

I am all for curbing council spending infact they should be given half the budget and told to get on with it right now !! 85p in the pound get swallowed up in admin salaries and pensionsel aving 15p in the pound for 'frontline' services - now someone tell me if that represent value or not ?? - that represents, in my book, criminal neglect and top civil servants and councillors should be going to jail over this !!!
42

Rossmcl,

08/08/2008 04:02:55
This is Good news, BUT.....
SNP's 47MSPs + LibDems 16MSPs = a total of just 63MSPs. That's still not a majority in the parliament. Tories and Labour would still oppose any change, so unless the Greens come on board for LIT it's still stalemate. A decent journalist would have considered this worth mentioning, of course.
43

Magic Hoops 2,

Kirkcaldy 08/08/2008 05:02:51
Think i just heard the familiar sound of AM2 and similar Unionist pappering their trollies over this article. Clearly LIT is on its way and another manifesto pledge secured through MATURE consensus with the other parties.

No backchat from Liebour i see. They must be a bit speechless.......with envy.

Well done Alex Salmond. Spin this all you like AM2. Bridges are being built in Holyrood to link up with the public opinion.

Can you smell that..niiiiiiiiiiif......victory
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08/08/2008 05:25:34
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08/08/2008 05:28:02
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08/08/2008 05:38:01
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08/08/2008 05:52:36
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Phil C,

08/08/2008 07:02:52
#1 AM2

Will you please try to stop living in the past. Remember past performance is not necessarily a guide to the future. You can dredge up all the figures you want, all the past comments you can but we are living with a minority administration and consensus politics mean that everyone should try to be flexible and change when change is called for. In this instance, even you must see the benefit of properly funded LIT.

Everything you say is concerned with preventing change, preventing progress. You are stuck in your unionist box and you really should try thinking outside of that box sometimes. You might even see the brighter future that so many expect for an independent Scotland. Only time will tell how things will turn out, but looking back is not a good option.
49

Jimmy Le Pie,

08/08/2008 07:03:04
Now that AM2 has his extreme right wing website why does he bother commenting on these threads???


Could it be no one is paying any attention to his right wing drivel???
50

Tynietiger,

08/08/2008 07:22:18
W Smith is displaying his usual anti Muslim prejudices.
What the Councilor did is foolish in our eyes but a fairly normal and legal tourist attraction in parts of Pakistan.

Why no headlines every time a Tory Toff shoots a deer and the councilor's activities certainly less harmful than Brown Blair and Bush's illegal War in Iraq.
51

Rob me blind,

Peterhead 08/08/2008 07:26:21
Can you tell me what the difference is between the 'poll tax' and LIT. As I remember it the SNP rose in popularity because of their stance against the 'poll tax'.

Given the figures spouted here it would seem that local authorities would have far lower funding under LIT this would be even worse when the top from the UK purse stops, then just what will we receive for our money? Wake up and smell the coffee its time that the truth was told about this tax and just what it will really cost to make the SNP look good.

If you foolishly believe what Salmond says go speak to the people of Penan (local hero) and see how he delivers on his promises.
52

Linda,

Edinburgh 08/08/2008 07:33:55
Rob Me Blind has no idea about Poll Tax which required everyone paid the same amount no matter whether they earned £10k a year or £100k a year.

Unlike Council Tax, Local Income Tax just like "National" Income Tax is the fairest way to pay for local services.
53

Jimmy Le Pie,

08/08/2008 07:35:16
#73 Rob me blind,

Can't believe you don't know the difference.

Poll Tax paid regardless of financial circumstances.

LIT paid on 'earnings'

How can you find that difficult???

Alex Salmond and the SNP are increasing their popularity by delivering policies for the people of Scotland, not doing the bidding of bosses in London like the other parties.


www.snp.org
54

paulr,

edinburgh 08/08/2008 08:04:46
Council Tax is bad enough, but to allow the MORONS on Edinburgh city council to set local income tax...
Do you really want to cause the people of edinburgh kind of hardship which is guaranteed to follow?
55

paulr,

edinburgh 08/08/2008 08:06:35
If Edinburgh council get the right to set local income tax we will end up paying far more than we do in council tax.
56

Jimmy Le Pie,

08/08/2008 08:12:04
W Smith 'Middle East'

You really do hate Muslims don't you?

Are you really in the Middle East or are you a sad racist sitting alone in a bed sit full of bile??
57

Linda,

Edinburgh 08/08/2008 08:41:54
20% of Households in Scotland earn less than £10k
Band A Council Tax (Edinburgh) £779
LIT @ 3% is £140


20% of Households in Scotland earn £10-15k
Band B Council Tax (Edinburgh) £909
LIT @ 3% would mean between £140- 290


27% of Households in Scotland earn £15-25k
Band C Council Tax (Edinburgh) £1039
LIT @ 3% would mean between £290-590


9% of Households in Scotland earn £25-30k
Band D Council Tax (Edinburgh) £1169
LIT @ 3% would mean between £590-740


13% of Households in Scotland earn £30-40k
Band E Council Tax (Edinburgh) £1428
LIT @ 3% would mean between £740-1040


10% of Households in Scotland earn over £40k
Band F Council Tax (Edinburgh) £1688
LIT @ 3% would mean between £1040 +
58

Linda,

Edinburgh 08/08/2008 08:46:11
Wisnae Me. These are arguments for Independence.

If Westminster withholds Council Tax Benefit, how can Labour defend position whereby Scots Taxpayers will be subsidising English Council Tax Rebates.

Any anomalies / rebates would be ironed out if Scotland has full fiscal powers (£10 billion surplus in this financial year)
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08/08/2008 08:54:44
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tommy M,

08/08/2008 09:00:15
poll tax crippled scotland. council tax is unfair. SNP is delivering sound, solid government. Get over it unionists.

It's time.
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bluehead,

edinburgh 08/08/2008 09:01:06
councils do enough damage to the cities of Scotland without making it any more confusing for their tiny wee brains,just look at the mess poor auld Edinburgh is in through the maniacal tram system,then imagine what they would do with the LIT,they have already demonstrated how to throw money away with the crazy tram system,so just think what they would with the LIT
62

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 08/08/2008 09:08:14
Can somebody explain how the proposed extra 3p on income tax relates to the 20% and 40% tax rates? It is added to both? If so the proportionate increase s greater for the individual paying at 20% than it ias for one paying at 40%.
63

BIG EYE,

Paisley 08/08/2008 09:14:18
Hold on a minute is this the LIT proposal that the headlines in the Unionist press told us last week the SNP were dropping?

Both stories can't be true!
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Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 08/08/2008 09:17:16
I support this but I'm now a bit worried. What if North ayrshire decide to take £1.20 in the pound which i'm sure they will try the greedy B"£S%r*s...
65

David MacVicar,

web 08/08/2008 09:24:19
#1 post by AM2 is misleading. At his most honest AM2 will only post a half truth or very selective statistics.

Key words are "allegedly" and "within the limits of statute"

Allegedly = as dredged up as a gambit by those who want to keep the council tax and were desperate to find a way to stop fairer taxation. Desperate to stop it because most Scots will get a lower bill and vote accordingly. Nobody of note is banging on a drum stating that the LIT would be illegal.

This brings me nicely onto "within the limits of statute".

This means all the Scottish parliament has to do is vote to Pass the LIT and Hey Presto it is Legal. Set in law, become part of the statute.

Yes AM2, as you already know and disingenuously avoided stating, there is no illegality as soon as the SP makes it LAW.

The Scottish Parliament has control here. How could that have happened! A disaster. That must really hurt certain unionists and we can see the pain in AM2's desperate, 'clutching at straws' post.
66

Doh,

08/08/2008 09:25:48
#86

The intention is that the 3p would apply to the 20p and 40p bands. In fact this is an matter of dispute, with some claiming that the SP does not have the right to alter the 40p rate. But it does have the right to legislate for local taxtation. So it is pretty sterile argument.

It is a pity that Labour are being so immature and also threatening to withold the Council Tax rebate money. This nitpicking only highlights how out of tocuh they are. Transferring the Council Tax rebate money wouldnt cost the UK Treasury a single extra penny. So Labours oppossition is pure spite.

Trying to use these technicalities to stop a popular tax reform will backfire on Labour.
67

Publius,

08/08/2008 09:30:55
#10 Coileach an taobh Tuath

Your table is misleading. Households with low incomes are eligible for council tax relief. Those with very low incomes are eligible for 100 per cent council tax relief. I suggest you revist your table and do the necessary adjustments.
68

Publius,

London 08/08/2008 09:35:17
#80 Linda
How many households with an income of less than £10k pay council tax in full?
69

brownlie,

08/08/2008 09:37:57
62 Ross

So, as you claim, it would appear that Labour and the Conservatives would oppose LIT.

That would mean that the status quo would be maintained.

Following the precedent set in Wales there would, inevitably, have to be a revaluation of council tax bands which would, again inevitably, result in increases that would make the annual rises under LIB/LAB seems like small change.

Is this really going to be beneficial for Scotland.

70

David MacVicar,

web 08/08/2008 09:38:32
91 Doh. I agree and would like to add:

If Labour does stop the rebate to Scottish residents. Scottish tax paying residents will still be paying their percentage towards the council tax rebate in England, which is collected UK wide.

It would be interesting to see how Labour plan to sell that to the Scottish tax payers! I can hear Cathy Jamieson now: 'It's very, very, very simple.....I'm....socialist.....hard working families....SNP....picking fights....'.
71

JimC,

Kilmarnock 08/08/2008 09:40:56
I can't agree with every council in Scotland setting its own income tax rate. If we have not learned by now that councils can not be trusted to represent the people then you never will. Look at the abuse of RIPA by local authorities as an example. And since when did business groups, councils, the unions,act in the interests of working class people? As each council sets its budget any shortfall from that which the government allocates and which the final budget calculation requires falls onto the lap of the council tax payer. On top of that the social rent levels are set separately, again any increase due that allows councils to meet the Housing Quality standards deadline is passed onto tenants in the form of rent increases which are normally set at the rate of inflation plus 2% each and every year. For the last decade, wage increases have been nulled by the way local finances are calculated, in effect we are getting poorer year on year. This is not about local councils, its about Westminster and the Scottish Government depriving councils of the money they need to run local services. And freezing the council tax levels last year saw huge increases by all councils for many of its services across the board.
72

Peatstack,

Rural 08/08/2008 09:40:58
"20% of Households in Scotland earn less than £10k
Band A Council Tax (Edinburgh) £779
LIT @ 3% is £140"

But people earning under £10k will get 100% Council Tax rebate, therefore LIT leaves them £140 out of pocket. Hardly an improvement on the current system!

The unanswered question is: where does local government get the cash to make up the shortfall between the Council tax yield and the LIT yield?
73

Alan B,

08/08/2008 09:40:59
#Doh

"Transferring the Council Tax rebate money wouldnt cost the UK Treasury a single extra penny. So Labours oppossition is pure spite."

Could not agree more.
74

K McDonald,

glasgow 08/08/2008 09:42:53
78 Jimmy Le Pie,08/08/2008 08:12:04
W Smith 'Middle East'

Are you really in the Middle East or are you a sad racist sitting alone in a bed sit full of bile??

Jimmy, criticism of Islam and those who believe in Mohammed's revelation is not racism. Islam is not a race, it is a belief system invented in Mecca by Mohammed in the 7th century. OK?

Many people share W Smith's legitimate concern that Islamic fundamentalists have hijacked the SNP - particularly in Glasgow. Some of us are concerned that the SNP shares the same geopolitical outlook as Hamas and Iran. Some of us are concerned that the Muslim Brotherhood's frontman in Scotland has been handed the brief of disarming the UK of it's nuclear weapons. Some of us are concerned that an SNP councillor (now MSP) from Glasgow used school children to pull off a grotesque stunt in an attempt further their Islamist agenda. Some of us are concerned that (the proposed) LIT money will be used to fund madrases and the Muslim Brotherhood front group SIF. Some of us are disgusted that an SNP councillor (who has vetted Salmond's speeches to filter out "offensive" phrases) takes his children to "camps" near the Pakistani/Afghan border to shoot AK47s. Some of us are concerned that Salmond thinks that some people are more Scottish than others.

All of these are legitimate concerns and I and others will not move along because you say there is nothing to see here.

75

Publius,

London 08/08/2008 09:44:14
#91 Doh

The application of 3p LIT to the 40 per cent band is fundamental. If the 3p doesn't (or can't be) applied to the 40 per cent band, then the shortfall in revenue will be very much larger than even the SNP has estimated.

Moving directly to a locally determined LIT (as proposed by the LibDems) is a way of getting round the restriction on the 40 per cent band. But I can't see HMRC agreeing to run a system of local variation. They don't have the resources.

Sooner rather than later the SNP will abandon LIT.
76

Miss H,

08/08/2008 09:44:32
1 AM2 I wouldn't worry about it. Ross Finnie on Newsnight last night knew nothing about this. So it's just another Scotsman spin piece.

92 Publius. Entitlement to council tax benefit is the same as for other benefits i.e.income support, pension credit etc. So basically you need to be on those gateway benefits before you stop having to pay council tax. That means that people on a low wage or in receipt of a modest occupational pension pay full council tax because they are not entitled to income support or the guaranteed element of pension credit.

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08/08/2008 09:47:17
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78

brownlie,

08/08/2008 09:48:55
90 David MacVicar

Interesting and significant comment that "Desperate to stop it because most Scots will get a lower bill and vote accordingly"

The converse is also true - if, as stated above, Labour and Conservatives vote against LIT most Scots will be left with the hated Council Tax, will pay bigger, perhaps much bigger, bills and will vote accordingly.

As far as those who favour LIT are concerned it's a case of heads we win, tails you lose.
79

Publius,

London 08/08/2008 09:50:10
#101
You've not answered my question. How many households with an income of less than £10k pay council tax in full?
80

walter,

08/08/2008 09:52:35
The CT is unfair and I do not suppose there are many who would disagree.
To replace it with a national tax (which is exactly what the SNPs proposal is) paid only by those who have a taxable income is also unfair.
A household income tax would be the fairest way for councils to collect a LIT.
The income going into a household should be calculated and a tax levied on every pound received over a set baseline.
If a baseline somewhere between six and eight thousand was set then all income into the household above that would be taxed at 3p in the £ if that was the rate set.
I would also suggest that those earning a living had there household income calculated after and not before they have paid income tax and national insurance.
81

Publius,

London 08/08/2008 09:54:59
#102

Good question. I don't know the answer, but I guess it will be pretty marginal. At present my ma lives in a Band D house, she lives alone (so she gets a 25 per cent discount on council tax) and she has a reasonable occupation pension as well as the state pension.

But the question is pretty academic. LIT will be axed.
82

Guga II,

Rockall 08/08/2008 09:57:49
Marvellous, isn't it? Make a comment in the Hootsmon about AM Squared getting his comments in before the article is actually on-line, and the Hootsmon deletes it. I suppose it helps if you work for the Hootsmon.
83

Rossmcl,

08/08/2008 10:06:08
#94 No. I am in favour of LIT. When I said the parliamentary arithmetic wasn't there for it, I was stating as fact, not celebrating it.

As #63 says, a Motherwell by election may change that, but the 2 Greens are certainly against LIT, and so - as I understand it - is big Margo. If all 3 of them voted against LIT then an extra Nat in Motherwell still won't be enough (the vote then would be 65 against; 64 for).
84

subrosa,

08/08/2008 10:09:54
# 92 and # 93

I pay full council tax and I have earnings under £10,000. The reason? I have a small amount of savings which were intended for use during my retirement and not to pay utility and other rising bills.
85

Miss H,

08/08/2008 10:13:03
97 You are wrong on two counts. Someone earning £9000 per year living in a Band A house in Edinburgh (as in the example given) would not be entitled to council tax benefit. They would get tax credits and possibly some housing benefit depending on their housing costs but they would not get council tax benefit. As I said earlier if you are not in receipt of other income based benefits you won't get council tax benefit. So the working poor don't get it.

You are also wrong to say that people who currently get council tax benefit would lose out under LIT. Council tax benefit is not paid to individuals it is paid directly to councils. LIT will make no difference to people who are currently entitled to council tax benefit.

104 It is impossible to answer that question because it is dependent on a lot of things e.g. whether someone works full time/part time, whether they are a carer or disabled etc. But if you take the case of someone who works full time and earns £9000 they would not get council tax benefit.

There is a basic calculator here to give an indication of what benefits people might be entitled to:

http://www.entitledto.co.uk/


86

Jimmy Le Pie,

08/08/2008 10:19:55
#99K McDonald,glasgow

OK you're right I should have said religious bigot instead of racist.

As a member of the SNP I know that it isn't possible for any group to hijack the party, which is more than can be said of New Labour Sleaze.

I think Scotland has suffered far too much because of religion over the years.

Would you have been one of the visionaries who used to quote "Home Rule means Rome Rule" when asked about the SNP??
87

Publius,

London 08/08/2008 10:21:40
#113
Yu write 'if you take the case of someone who works full time and earns £9000 they would not get council tax benefit'.

I doubt there are many such people who live alone. But you are making a case for more generous benefits for people on low incomes, not for changing the tax system.
88

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 08/08/2008 10:22:21
#73 Rob

The individuals in Pennan who appeared on Reporting Scotland, bemoaning the state of the village hall one year after the floods need a reality check.

Everyone I have spoken to agrees that they need to get off their collective butts and tidy the hall up by themselves. From the video it appeared to have fairly minor damage.
89

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 08/08/2008 10:24:08
#79

An almost perfect misunderstanding of the facts.
90

,

08/08/2008 10:26:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
91

Publius,

London 08/08/2008 10:26:42
Back to the original story. It doesn't say that the SNP will adopt the LibDem position. There is little chance that the SNP and LibDems will agree on LIT. And even if they do agree and get a bill through Holyrood, there is no chance that Westminster will help with collecting the tax.
LIT is dying.
92

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 08/08/2008 10:28:33
"SNP to woo Lib Dems on local income tax plans". Not exactly hard to woo a Lib Dem on anything as they believe in both sides of any argument at the same time.

A typical LibDem:

http://tinyurl.com/5el2cg
93

pwd,

Borders 08/08/2008 10:29:25
* 10

And what about the tens of thousands of layabouts and spongers? Will they get off Scot free again?
94

pwd,

Borders 08/08/2008 10:30:42
* 10

And what about the tens of thousands of layabouts and spongers? Will they get off Scot free again? Better a local sales tax; at least we would get something back from them.
95

Miss H,

08/08/2008 10:31:58
115 Someone earning £9000 a year with a partner in receipt of Jobseekers allowance would still have to pay full council tax.

You may say that I am making the case for a more generous benefits system but the Scottish Parliament cannot change the benefit system. The only thing it has the power to change at present is local taxation.
96

akjem,

dundee 08/08/2008 10:34:37
If LIT is levied on the ability to pay what is the problem? British Labour's threat to withhold CTB is smoke and mirrors. Westmonster will fund Scottish Council's expenditure, regardless of how the Scottish Government raise their part of Council expenditure.

There are currently HMRC offices in Bathgate, Cumbernauld, East Kilbride, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Livingston. Presumably their various functions primarily relate to Scotland.

I would have thought, therefore, that Scotland was amply policed by HMRC and collecting 'more' tax (LIT) would trouble them not one bit.
97

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 08/08/2008 10:38:43
#122 You appear not to realise that the council tax rebate is funded by taxes raised in Scotland and is not a handout from Westminster. So, what is the relevance of your statement:

"What we need the SNP to propose is a local taxation system that operates outside the current Westminster arrangement"??
98

DAVID,

Edinburgh 08/08/2008 10:42:27
What LIT means is that the "poor" aka the benefits class who are too lazy to work will be increasingly subsidised by those of us who actually get up of our @rses and work for a living.

Honestly, this pandering to the bottom end of the scale who sit back and sponge off the rest of us is starting to get me down. It's a total con, I don't know why more people don't get with the programme and fight back against this nonsense.
99

Alan B,

08/08/2008 10:43:27
#Publius

"LIT is dying"

i would doubt it. but it could be interesting. firstly i could see the snp failing to get it through this term in office. But what happens when/if they are returned with a significantly bigger number of msp. Conversely while they could be more electrally successful in terms msp next term it could also be likely that the libs dems will go into free fall, particularly if scott is returned as their leader.

But then if you look at the other issues.

Labour blinked first with Grey talking of abolishing council tax. Although he then seeming took orders for london (cant think of another reason) and uturned within the next day and talked about a reformed council tax.

But his outburst will make it difficult for labour to defend the council tax particularly if he is leader.

What will Calman produce. Lets face it labour position of trying to withhold the monies for council tax rebate are untenable. If calman gives the sp more powers over taxation it makes sense for some sort of devolution of the inland revenue.

100

Alan B,

08/08/2008 10:55:15
#130 It wassnae me

"My point is that SNP's proposal is actually reliant on Westminster. Which seems strange from a party that claims it wants Scotland to be independent."

That is silly. The snp want to use the current tax system. That seems sensible.

Yes they want independence but we do not have that so they have to work within the current system. With independence they would use a scottish inland revenue system.

If calman comes up with some sort fisal federalism wendy style or fiscal autonomy now advocated by one of the lib dems candidates they will have to use either the current inland revenue system or the system will have to be devolved.

As for council tax rebate. The point is scotland pay taxes like every other part of the uk. If labour withhold council tax rebate money from scotland and do not include it for instance in the block grant (or any other mechanism of releasing it to scotland) we will have a situation where the devolution settlement gave the sp the right to change the method of local government taxation but using that power means that we will lose money that currently comes our way. Money we have contributed to via the tax system. Conversely if england decide say under a new tory government to adopt poll tax mark 11, then would council tax rebate just stop for scotland as council tax no longer exists in england. ie scotland would have to adopt the same tax in england to get an new benefit. the fact is no matter rates, poll tax or council tax money has been made available for rebates or whatever label to try to make it fairer. Scotland if we have devolution that allows us to change that tax should get it share of spending money without fear of losing money if we implement a devolution power. (even am2 now believes the money should come to scotland but directly to councils).
101

DAVID,

Edinburgh 08/08/2008 10:58:12
#132 - how do people paying 20% tax pay proportionally more than a higher rate taxpayer paying 20% and 40%?

And how does someone on the dole or claiming tax credits subsidise someone in full-time empployment who receives no such rebate from Govt?

And why are there so many benefit claimants in the first place when they could be out doing the jobs done by Poles with a greater work ethic? Answer: the benefits system is not a safety net any more, it's a nice comfy armchair.

Keen to hear your response though.
102

Phil1,

Edinburgh 08/08/2008 11:02:56
107 Guga II,Rockall 08/08/2008 09:57:49
Marvellous, isn't it? Make a comment in the Hootsmon about AM Squared getting his comments in before the article is actually on-line, and the Hootsmon deletes it. I suppose it helps if you work for the Hootsmon.


“Hello pot!”= Guga and the huge number of rants and posts
103

K McDonald,

glasgow 08/08/2008 11:08:10
114 Jimmy Le Pie,08/08/2008 10:19:55
#99K McDonald,glasgow

OK you're right I should have said religious bigot instead of racist.>>

Criticism of Islamism, which is a political ideology, is not bigotry. Would you call opponents of Marxism, National Socialism or any other toatalitarian political ideology a bigot?

>>>As a member of the SNP I know that it isn't possible for any group to hijack the party, which is more than can be said of New Labour Sleaze.>>>

The pungent whiff of Islamism oozes from every pore of the SNP body-politic. There is no other country in the Western world where the clerical fascist Muslim Brotherhood has greater political influence. In Salmond's Scotland Islamists are fetted, funded and pandered to. I find this shocking.

>>I think Scotland has suffered far too much because of religion over the years.>>

So pray tell why the SNP, your party, is pushing Glasgow council to set-up Islamic Madrassas using the tax payers' budget?

>>>Would you have been one of the visionaries who used to quote "Home Rule means Rome Rule" when asked about the SNP??<<<

No. But I can say that home rule by the SNP means our country will have very close associations with some very unsavoury Islamist groups and orginisations.
104

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 08/08/2008 11:11:28
#134 "What's truly amazing, is that Labour, the party of looking after the vulnerable are opposed to this."

Excuse me, are we talking about the same Labour party? This bunch of corrupt thieving champagne socialists don't care tuppence for the "vulnerable".

The only difference between a Tory and a Labour MP is that the Tory just walks past a beggar in the street but the Labour MP stops to kick the beggar in the stomach.
105

subrosa,

08/08/2008 11:13:02
#115 says:'Yu write 'if you take the case of someone who works full time and earns £9000 they would not get council tax benefit'.

I doubt there are many such people who live alone. But you are making a case for more generous benefits for people on low incomes, not for changing the tax system.'

There are many people living alone with earnings around £9,000. I'm one of them. Think many people over 60 would completely disagree with you. Miss H is correct. Regardless if your income is small you are not entitled to council tax benefit unless you received one of the many other 'benefits'.

What amazes me in your inability to realise that these benefits are paid from taxpayers money. Why should a pensioner have to go through a means test to acquire a small sum in benefit when with a LIT it could leave them with money in their hand?

These means tested benefit applications are though of as demeaning at best and that's the reason so many are 'unclaimed'. Pensioners pay tax twice on their pensions without having to submit themselves to the indignity of the benefit system.


106

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 08/08/2008 11:25:28
The figure of three pence in local taxation is the sum laid down in the Scotland Act which Holyrood can vary up, or down.

Recent statistics on the Council Tax in Scotland showed that the full amount is never collected. Depending on the local authority, some 7 to 13 percent of the total is never recovered. Income Tax has a one hundred percent collection rate!

Rates of Council Tax collection vary throughout Scotland and a percentage of the annual increase
is included to cover this deficit.

The same applies to collection rates in England and
Wales (Northern Ireland still has Rates).


All the organisations, both political and financial, that oppose a LIT must have taken into consideration the possibility of a local system as opposed to a national one but remained silent on this matter?

IF, the Scots Lib-Dems which is a separate party, unlike the Scots Labour and Tory parties, were to support the Nationalists, IF still in power, the SNP might still push through a LIT?

The argument that it would create too much bureaucracy
is also a bit weak considering we live in the I.T. age although no doubt the UK government would make sure that HMRC would have nothing to do with it.
107

Alan B,

08/08/2008 11:25:59
#It wassnae me

Couple of points.

If scotland moved to independence we would have to set up our own inland revenue system. Personally i support a move to fiscal autonomy first.

Specifically on LIT. I do not support LIT but do support the right of the scottish parliament to use its powers set down be the devolution settlement to alter council taxation methods. I think it is wrong and immature the position labour are taking trying to withhold council tax rebate. The set up the sp with a income tax varying power (very limited but is there) which means that the sp would have the use of the uk inland revenue system.

If we do go separate ways i do not think it has to be a messy divorse. England in general do not have an ill will towards scotland. There view goes from generally positive but with a lack of interest in scotland. (bit like in football, ask someone in england if they want scotland to do well they will tend to say yes but have no idea of the team, players and have any interest).
108

Alan B,

08/08/2008 11:32:01
#Mr. Lachie Todd

"The figure of three pence in local taxation is the sum laid down in the Scotland Act which Holyrood can vary up, or down. "

I think the 3p is a coinsidence. The snp do not plan to use the 3p varying rate of income tax set out by the scotland act. My understanding is they intend to use the powers in the scotland act to adopt an alternative method of local government taxation. As such it has nothing to do with the 3p income tax varying power. This is why they believe they have the pwoer to implement the 3p on all salaried income and not just that within the standard rate range. The scotland act powers for the sp to vary income tax are only 3p +or- on the standard rate.

"Income Tax has a one hundred percent collection rate!"
Income tax is subject to both evasion (illegal) and avoildance (tax management). Just think for evasion of the cash in hand type payments for tradesmen. So income tax does not have a 100% collection rate.
109

walter,

08/08/2008 11:32:30
Earning £9000 for full time employment? who ever you are I would be having a word with the authorities.
A normal working week of 40+ hours at the minimum wage
is a lot more than £9000 per annum.
Unless you only work about 32 hours a week then that would give you just over £9000 which isn't exactly full time.
110

Alan B,

08/08/2008 11:35:09
#walter

35 hrs a week is the standard for public servants/civil service. ie 9-5 with 1hr off for lunch.
111

brownlie,

08/08/2008 11:45:04
149 AlanB

Don't know about civil servants but local authority workers in this area work 37 hours per week.
112

Sedov,

Scotland 08/08/2008 11:48:03
The SNP really have not got a clue about how to fund and run local government. They bring out seemingly "new" ideas on white glossy paper to court popularity with the council tax payer but underneath the gloss is nought but old worn yellow and black newspaper turning into dust.
113

frank mcbride,

lusitania 08/08/2008 11:51:15
#136, Dave.

The "proportionally paying more" was referring to CT.

What is clear, however, is the inherent proportionality of LIT.

People will pay, proportionatly, for local services, based on their income. LIT is obviously fairer, for all contributers, as it does away with the DOUBLE TAXATION that is CT.

Dave, if you have an issue with overall benefits system, take it up with Westminster. The SNP has/is doing what it can to make the system fairer. Unfortunately, you, and your fellow travellers, seem to be blind to the SG's positive agenda.
114

Jimmy Le Pie,

08/08/2008 12:04:15
#139

Boy you've got hatred in a bad way.


"The pungent whiff of Islamism oozes from every pore of the SNP body-politic."

What utter drivel. You're up there with the worst of the bigots ever to have darkened this website.

You'll be voting BNP at the next election then?
Or don't they stand in Scotland?

The Monster Loonies would get more votes.

Hatred like you've got might be treatable in Carstairs - give it a try, you seriously need help!
115

frank mcbride,

lusitania 08/08/2008 12:09:06
#139 & others, K McDonald.

Your rant is, just, a rerun of the Union Alliance's, particularly Labour, despicable sectarian attacks on the SNP.

In Larkhall e.g., "Home rule is Rome rule."

In Coatbridge, "The Kirk will make the Laws."

Now, having been found out, they raise the bogeyman of Islamic extremism making SNP policy.

Please leave your unpleasant in your Unionist Alliance party meeting, with your friends AM2, W.Smith and Media 1.
116

kimba,

08/08/2008 12:31:59
156. Either you are one of those who bury their head in the sand,or you are that stupid that you can't see what is happening,either way, you are about to have a rude awakening. Islamic extremism is alive and well in scotland,thanks to salmond and co.
When Cameron said "He would put troops on the streets of scotland if need be", now i know what he ment.
117

Coileach an taobh Tuath,

08/08/2008 12:34:32
150 It wassnae me

"....Both countries will compete for the same trade, tax breaks etc. We might become better off but they may be alot better off than us. ...."

They would be very different countries I suspect.

One is a lot bigger than the other and as such is less flexible in it's policy.






118

Sedov,

Scotland 08/08/2008 12:39:22
#155 hoots etc - thanks for "ignoring" my post , you are obviously obsessed about making trivial points, perhaps you need to get a hobby. PS the definition of "ignoring" in the Collins dictionary is - to fail or refuse to notice- obviously you are not in charge of your own senses by reading my post.
119

Alan B,

08/08/2008 12:39:37
#154 Jimmy Le Pie

Well said
120

Coileach an taobh Tuath,

08/08/2008 12:41:16
157 kimba, 08/08/2008 12:31:59

Are you advocating a fascist state?

I knew you English Democrats were a bit well loopy, but jezus!


121

,

08/08/2008 12:44:57
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
122

Alan B,

08/08/2008 12:52:04
#151 brownlie

Yes most offices i have worked in do a 37.5hr week. 9-5:30. (When working for a public agency it was 35hrs a week as said.) My point to Walter was the normal working week is not necessarily 40hrs+. (A teaching job was officially about 9-3:30 so making it 22.5hrs a week -do not know what it is now with some of the changes).

The other point he overlooked in his calculation is even if people are working full time hrs if they are not permi then any leave or sickies and public holidays are unpaid.

Based on £5.52 min wage. src
http://www.berr.gov.uk/employment/pay/national-minimum-wage/index.html

hrs weekly yrly
32 176.64 9185.28
35 193.2 10046.4
37.5 207 10764
40 220.8 11481.6




123

jacquesmac,

08/08/2008 12:53:24
#157

Legsa Kimba

I didn't know they allowed keyboards in Carstairs?

For reds under the bed of yore, read Islamic nutters.
124

Alan B,

08/08/2008 12:57:00
#It wassnae me

"Both countries will compete for the same trade, tax breaks etc."

We are in a global market so are competing for trade, tax breaks alreay.

"We might become better off but they may be alot better off than us."

If they do better after independence good luck to them. Not entirely sure how independence will really change things for them too much. Economically they have been doing quite well. It is scotland that is struggling to match both the uk growth rates and the even higher growth rates of the smaller western european countries known as the arc of prosperity.
125

westview,

Why is our fuel so dear under Labour? 08/08/2008 12:57:35
Council tax is evil. Sooner it goes the better.
126

oddoneout,

08/08/2008 13:47:32
And the way of collecting thqis new tax is.......HM government who currently spend roughly 40p out of every pound they collect to actually collect taxes, so thats over a third of the money collected being spent on collecting it. way to go
127

Davie from Irvine,

Ayrshire coast 08/08/2008 14:02:15
When i log on in the evening recently there has been massive posts removed by the administrater and the thread closed, can some of you who are on during the day and have seen the posts before they have been removed please tell me what is going on ? .
128

Publius,

London 08/08/2008 14:04:40
#113113 Miss H

You write 'if you take the case of someone who works full time and earns £9000 they would not get council tax benefit'.

There's no such animal. Such a person working for 37.5 hours per week would be earning just over £4 per hour. The minimum wage is currently jut over £5 rising to £5.73 in October.
129

maximum,

Edinburgh 08/08/2008 14:06:17
The quicker we boot this ridiculous minority government out the better, LIT, give me strength. Someone at the beginning of this blog pointed out how we would all be paying less, excellent news, unfortunately it means we won't raise the revenue to pay for the services we have currently. All we need is a decent opposition and this bunch of stains will be gone. Unfortunately we can't even manage that.
130

Publius,

London 08/08/2008 14:08:39
The SNP are interested in he Scottish LibDems' views on LIT, and ine Scottish Labour view and the UK Labour view. But they haven't asked the UK Tories, who'll almost certainly win the next UK election. It'll down to them whether LIT can be run through HMRC. No chance!
131

Publius,

London 08/08/2008 14:11:07
#169 Davie from Irvine

Good point. I'd like to know too. The administrator could give a reason but never does.
132

Davie from Irvine,

08/08/2008 14:17:06
173 Publius, hope someone tell us.
133

Daveunderwater,

Shingway 08/08/2008 14:19:58
Mains of Fintray Pipeband are appearing at the Olympic Opening Ceremony, no Morris Dancers though?
134

Daveunderwater,

08/08/2008 14:21:19
Will the Murray Brothers sport Saltires?

We shall see...
135

Alan B,

08/08/2008 14:21:53
#Publius

"It'll down to them whether LIT can be run through HMRC. No chance!"

I doubt the tories will be so petty.

Lets face it what is the big deal with the inland revenue being used to collect lit. (could see an issue if locally set).

Calman is likely to recommend more powers for sp, particularly round fiscal policy. As such scotland will need to have either devolution of inland revenue or have a uk service that takes account of the different tax arrangements within the consituent parts of the uk.

Also i could see the tories being open to barnett reform and more fiscal power to sp anyway. David Davis support fiscal autonomy. It would actually be a good time for the tories in london to act on this given they will have a receptive government in scotland.

LIT really needs to be argued on its merits not the silliness of trying to stop the scottish parliament implementing powers it was granted in the devolution settlement.
136

A Clamper,

Edinburgh 08/08/2008 14:26:22
LIT is going to happen and not before time. Cheerio hated Council Tax.
137

Alan B,

08/08/2008 14:26:37
#maximum

"Someone at the beginning of this blog pointed out how we would all be paying less, excellent news, unfortunately it means we won't raise the revenue to pay for the services we have currently."

couple of points:

1)that is essentially what a tax cut is. personally would like to see alot more tax cutting.
2)did we get value for all the increases in tax we have seen in the last 10yrs particularly with council tax. (eg what we have seen is councillor now getting paid)
3)normally what government do, is not cut services but just not raise spending levels so fast. And sometime in the future u see that u are spending less as a poportion to your wealth than you otherwise would have.
138

maximum,

Edinburgh 08/08/2008 14:37:24
Alan

1. Yes tax cuts are great, but they need to be affordable.
2. Value for money is a difficult thing to judge but the majority of councils have improved service provision over the last five or so years according to the national auditing bodies. there are of course exceptions but that is more mismanagement than opportunity. you can of course take issue with the criteria they are assessed on but it is the best we have.
3. This is what the SNP are currently doing by freezing the council tax, welcome in my book.

Whilst I have no doubt that reform is necessary. most people agree that LIT is not the answer. It would be advisable for the SNP to stop pushing blindly on, stop and have a think about it.
139

Alan B,

08/08/2008 14:49:52
#maximum

The amount of the tax cut is affordable. You are talking about a few hundred million in a something like a 30 billion budget if i remember correctly.

When i am talking about value for tax money, my point was more about wether we actually want money spent on specific projects. I have no opinion on the trams but you could spend the money well on that project and get value for money but that does not necessarily mean that you want the project to happen in the first place.

We have seen a huge rise in taxes over the last decade and a big rise in council taxes too. It really depends on your political opinion whether you want a high tax and spending government or not.

I personally do not support LIT. I would rather have big cuts in a property based tax like the council tax, with particular cuts for pensioners if not complete excemption for them.

My point to you was mainly round the affordability of the tax cut.
140

Chris42,

08/08/2008 15:02:06
Alan B 161

I dont have your knowledge of politics or economics but I'm intrigued by the notion that the Tories would be more cooperative with the SNP Govt than Labour have been and be more likely to grant the SP more powers. I imagine full fiscal autonomy would make Independence more likely as it would take the economic arguement out of the equation. Why then would the Tories agree to it?
141

brownlie,

08/08/2008 15:08:05
153 Publius

Hi, Pub,

with respect there is such an animal

The minimum wage you quote is for those over 21. The minimum wage for 18-21 is £4.60 per hour so someone working a 35 hour week would come into that range.
142

Scottish 'N British,

08/08/2008 15:10:24
154

I'm not too concerned about dumping this Separatist administration as I am keen on seeing their grand plans unravel.

At present, I/we are Band E CT. Listen to the SNP apologists and we'll be hunners of quids in. Do I believe it - nope.

But, let's just say it was true.

Should this be a situation where we as individuals see the 'main chance' and seize it, and to Hell with everyone else, or do we aim for a system whereby not only more people benefit from the present situation, but a system which also works for business and the local economy.


143

brownlie,

08/08/2008 15:13:45
146 Alan B

I'm not disputing the validity of your argument - merely pointing out that the local authority individuals who I come into contract with in the CPT have had their hours increased from 35 to 37.
144

David MacVicar,

web 08/08/2008 15:18:39
While LIT is far from ideal it is far superior and fairer than Council tax. It is a no brainer. Critics will and have been focusing on its drawbacks, voters will only look and see a water bill with ZERO council tax.

Labour and Council tax are going to disappear from the Scottish landscape at about the same time. RIP.

Unionists and Labour hangers-on will say otherwise, but they have been predicting SNP policy and SNP support downfall since prior to the Scottish election. The opposite is the reality.

Any chance they (British Labour and BritScot Unionists) could be right this time? Tectonic plates have moved and they are not for moving back for quite a while.

I'm not one for hubris, usually, but Scottish Unionists deserve their period in wilderness prior to a slow political death. Your comeuppance is long overdue and the implementation of LIT also marking the death of council tax and Labour, will be the next victory for Scottish democracy.

145

Scottish 'N British,

08/08/2008 15:18:57
Best wishes to all of our athletes - it's predicted Team GB can have its best games for decades.

Hopefully the Murray brothers will emerge victorious. And when they do (let's be positive about it), they'll receive their medals as willing particpants under the Union Flag.

The LTA has squandered £m's over the years. It got it spot on though when it decided to invest £1.5m in Andy's career.

146

brownlie,

08/08/2008 15:19:07
168 Scottish & British

And your solution would be????
147

,

08/08/2008 15:19:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
148

Miss H,

08/08/2008 15:27:00
163 and 164 - a key point is that the SNP Government is allowing councils to keep the efficiency savings which they make. Previously that money was just top sliced from their budgets.
149

Miss H,

08/08/2008 15:32:34
153 Then someone working slightly less than full time. You are just being pernickity about it. Someone who is in work, not getting income support or jobseekers allowance or any disability or carers benefit. Yes they would get tax credits to top up their income, yes they would probably get some level of housing benefit but they would not get council tax benefit.
150

Yeah1,

08/08/2008 15:32:52
Why are comments not allowed on the article about the AK-47 councillor?
151

Alan B,

08/08/2008 15:37:28
#Chris42

"but I'm intrigued by the notion that the Tories would be more cooperative with the SNP Govt"

I could be wrong. But using inland revenue to collect is not a big deal. In fact westminster trying to obstruct the sp from doing something that is clearly devolved is more likely to lead to fights and drive scotland towards independence. I think brown has taken the whole snp thing personally. Remember when he said publicly that he would not work with an snp admininstration at the time of last years election. That just was not what you would expect from a political leader. He seemingly will not answer/return phone calls from salmond according to the media. I have to say i am surprised by labour whole approach led by Brown. Council tax rebate is another petty issue. Or look at the lengths Brown seemed to want to go with the deal with the lib dems and Ming Campbell.

The tories in london on the other hand will probably be much less interested in scotland and see less value in picking fights over trival issues. If scotland wants LIT so what. Type of thing. It hardly effect England so why get worked up about it.

The tories recently in the sp have been worked with the snp in a constructive way. Tried to influence policies and not just obstructed. Saw on tv a first minister question (havent seen many) but you could see the way Salmond treated Goldie differently and with respect compared to both labour and lib dems. For the tories it gives them credibility in scotland after being a dirty word for so long.

If all 3 unionist parties reject a referendum in sp then there is not going to be one. So if the tories want to stop independence that is a much better tactic. Lets face it browns tactical approach is not working.

There has also been rumours in the media that salmond has cut a deal with cameron. Do not know if there is any truth in it but we will see.

On the issue of more fiscal powers. David Davis (camerons leadership contender supported fiscal au
152

Alan B,

08/08/2008 15:37:51
cont...

On the issue of more fiscal powers. David Davis (camerons leadership contender supported fiscal autonomy for scotland). So there is high level support. I do not know how the tories will go, in some ways they could go english nationalist which is there tendency. ie why go along with a union that could put them out of power given scotland do not support them. At the moment cameron is talking up the union.

There is also the issue of Barnett. Cameron has hinted at replacing it. This is something that will have to be addressed. Murdo Fraser in the tories in scotland seemingly supports fiscal autonomy, but that goes against the grain of the party.

The question is if the tories want to get rid of barnett, the scottish government support fiscal autonomy, (rumbles the lib dem leader supports fiscal autonomy probably will not win though), and what is Calman the scottish labour/lib dem/tory commission going to recommend.

All that could add up to scotland raising atleast some of its own taxation. Would the in london tories reject calman. Do they want to really keep barnett. I could be wrong calman now wendy has gone could say nothing regarding more fiscal change. Cameron may bury the issue.

However no matter whether they do adopt fiscal change, i am sure they will try to be seen as being cooperative with the scottish government rather than seen as fighting with them. Brown at the end of the day has hardly been an advert for devolution.

153

Scottish 'N British,

08/08/2008 15:44:40
172

Reform of CT. Add new top rates and a new bottom rate.
154

brownlie,

08/08/2008 15:48:46
179

Would that not merely perpetuate the "to hell with everyone else" scenario.

What are your thoughts on revaluation which must surely follow if CT is retained?
155

Alan B,

08/08/2008 15:51:34
#Scottish 'N British

"but a system which also works for business and the local economy."

Personally i do not think it matter to much for business or the local economy which version of council taxation you will have. It will be marginal any effect.

For small businesses they will probably gain as the proposals stand as they would be silly to withdraw money as income rather than dividends. As such they could avoid paying on such income.

Cash in hand business can evade some income tax anyway ie tradesmen cash in hand type thing. So these small businesses will probably not be hit too much any.

It is a much greater effect on their income top rate tax than any difference between 3% income tax and council tax.

What would the difference amount to anyway. Say you are pulling in £105,000. That would give you a lit bill of £3000. About the same amount you would probably be paying for your council tax.

So from a pure economic point (local economy) of view i cannot see it making a big difference either way.
156

Boswall,

08/08/2008 16:13:58
#181

It's far easier to legitimately hide earnings than it is to hide the value of property.

You shouldn't be surprised if a large number of highly remunerated individuals actually earn a declarable sum of < £15k.
157

Alan B,

08/08/2008 16:18:43
#Boswall

That was my point. As such i cannot see LIT (which i would not personally go for) having a negative impact on the economy, as poster #Scottish 'N British indicates. Any change i think would be marginal.

158

Publius,

still in London. No Girvan this weekend due to 4 08/08/2008 18:12:38
Alan B
My guess is that the Tories will wait to see what Calman proposes. If they're sensible, they'll implement Calman in full. But Tories are not always sensible...

LIT will come unstuck, regardless of the Tories or Calman. It won't generate enough revenue, so the SNP will pull it regardless of whether they get it through Holyrood.
159

Publius,

...due to 4 day weekend last week! 08/08/2008 18:14:40
Grant's tonight, because I won't be in Girvan. I don't go for blends a rule but I've a soft spot for Grant's, because my sister worked at the Girvan distillery for a while.
160

Publius,

London 08/08/2008 18:26:27
Grant's is better than I thought. The number of posts on the Scotsman counter is rising, but the number on the board is falling. And all before my eyes!
161

Jimmy Le Pie,

08/08/2008 18:26:35
I see tomorrow's Hootsmon is giving away some flag poster in a vain attempt to boost it's ailing circulation figures.

Good investigative journalism might be a good starting point?
162

Phil1,

Edinburgh 08/08/2008 19:12:59
187 Jimmy Le Pie,08/08/2008 18:26:35
I see tomorrow's Hootsmon is giving away some flag poster in a vain attempt to boost it's ailing circulation figures.


Well why read it if it offends you - lucky you don't have to pay for each submission or you'd be broke!
163

Nikostratos,

08/08/2008 19:28:53
#188 Phil1

Ooh! phil that hurt ha ha ha
164

Earman,

Dumfries 08/08/2008 20:21:25
Dear oh dear, even more minutia. Let me re-introduce the proverbial myopic bat.

Q. Mr. Myopic Bat, do you think that it would be reasonable to suggest that most, if not all, of the current Scottish Government's fiscal shortages would be alleviated - perhaps even eradicted altogether - if this Nation of ours raised and spent it's own revenue?

A. Now, let me see.........
165

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 08/08/2008 23:10:49
Come on the Lib Dems make a decision for once in your life and go with the SNP on this issue. A n INDEPENDENT SCOTLAND would have made this decision years ago!!!!!!

 

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