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Murphy in bid to bridge gap between SNP and London over Forth crossing

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Published Date: 12 January 2009
SCOTTISH Secretary Jim Murphy will try to broker a deal between the UK and Scottish Governments later this month in the row over the funding of the new Forth bridge.
The Scottish Government wants to be able to spread payments for the bridge over 20 years, rather than having to pay for the bridge in the three or four years it is built.

This plan has been rejected by the UK Treasury, leaving the Scottish Governm
ent with little choice but to take money from other projects to pay for the new Forth crossing.

Now Mr Murphy has intervened and invited John Swinney, the Scottish Finance Secretary, to a meeting with Yvette Cooper, the Chief Secretary to the UK Treasury, on 27 January to try to resolve the stalemate.

Mr Murphy said: "I'm inviting the SNP government and the Treasury to talks despite the way in which the SNP's played politics with this. The sums don't add up. They are trying to borrow money against budgets that don't even yet exist over a period of two decades.

"But despite the fact the SNP sums don't add up, it is important that we do make progress which is why I'm inviting them to these talks. Because it is important that we build this new Forth crossing, we want the right crossing at the right price. I think we can make progress."

Mr Swinney said he was delighted about the meetings but said he was in no doubt about the right way forward.

He said: "The sensible way to proceed is to undertake this bridge project under traditional government procurement and we've got the money to pay for that in our capital budgets.

"What's important is that we have a sensible and constructive discussion with the Treasury about spreading the cost of the bridge over a number of years to ensure that we can support other capital projects at the same time. I'd be delighted to discuss that issue because it reflects a sensible way forward."

One possible solution to the impasse would be for the Scottish Government to be granted borrowing powers. That would allow Scottish ministers to borrow money from international markets for big, one-off projects such as the new Forth bridge and then to spread repayments over a number of years.

The Scottish Government yesterday increased the pressure on the UK government on this issue by publishing the names of organisations and individuals backing its call to have borrowing powers.

The Scottish Government said it was supported by the Scottish Trades Union Congress, the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy, the Society of Local Authority Chief Executives and Senior Managers, the Royal Society of Edinburgh, the Church of Scotland and former Labour First Minister Henry McLeish.

A spokesman for First Minister Alex Salmond said: "If we have responsibility for major issues such as funding a new Forth Bridge – the biggest capital project in Scotland's history – then it makes perfect sense for us to have the financial responsibility to match.

"What this issue clearly illustrates is the need for the Scottish Parliament to have borrowing powers, so that we have the ability to phase the funding of major capital projects sensibly and efficiently."





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1

webwise,

Scotland 11/01/2009 22:44:58
"SCOTTISH Secretary Jim Murphy will try to broker a deal ..."

"Mr Murphy said: "I'm inviting the SNP government and the Treasury to talks despite the way in which the SNP's played politics with this. The sums don't add up. They are trying to borrow money against budgets that don't even yet exist over a period of two decades."

Come on, this headline is a wind up isn't it? Murphy has just repeated the same unconvincing attacks on the SNP as we have heard from Cooper, Kerr and Gray.

This isn't about brokering any deal, this is about creating a headline that seeks to undo some of the damage Labour have inflicted on themselves through this knee jerk response to a very sensible proposal.

Their own preferred method will itself take money from future budgets, only it will be MORE money over a LONGER period and the prospect of £26 tolls is simply ridiculous.

The Scottish press seem to want to bury completely the figures surrounding Labour's alternative. This must be one of the clearest examples of a political party so blinded by their dislike of an opponent that they would rather advocate a discredited solution than accept a pragmatic and sensible suggestion.
2

Rufus-T-Firefly,

11/01/2009 23:31:41
I think the SNP could easily resolve this bridge funding issue.

They should put their Rapid Response Team onto it, led by Team Leader Traquir.

I bet they would have a solution by the end of the week.
3

,

12/01/2009 00:22:06
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4

Sanny,

12/01/2009 00:22:47
I don’t question Rufus, that the redoubtable Traquir would do a far better job than the combined forces of the (Anti)-Scottish Office and its masters in Westminster. Still it is nice of you to recognise this. We may make a Scottish patriot of you yet!
5

The Strategist,

12/01/2009 00:27:34
Murphy is copying Brown's tactics. Create chaos then jump in and pretend you've saved the world.
6

Darien,

Panama 12/01/2009 00:35:47
Murphy, whose only 'job' outside Westmister was as President of the NUS, knows nothing about anything. He is little more than Brownshirts yelping Yorkshire Terrier, and a barking mad British Nationalist. The Scottish Government will make him look like the idiotic New Labour spiv trougher that he is.
7

Arthur G,

Glasgow 12/01/2009 00:57:39
Jim Murphy? At uni for about 8 years and never got a degree? His only skill is the ability to brown nose Brown for a job, that and being one of the West of Scotland Labour Establishment with the mandatory season ticket for Celtic Park.
8

Wardog™,

12/01/2009 01:01:57

"...I'm inviting the SNP government and the Treasury to talks despite the way in which the SNP's played politics with this. The sums don't add up. They are trying to borrow money against budgets that don't even yet exist over a period of two decades.....

Jim Murphy



PPP on a £2.3BILLION Bridge payable over 30 years at a rate of interest of 7.5%, would accrue another £1.7bn in operations, maintenance and lifecycle costs.

The £4bn figure, which includes maintenance costs for the existing bridge, would result in the taxpayer being charged £353m a year to meet the annual repayment charges for the PPP deal.

If the bill had to be picked up by the bridge user, rather than the taxpayer, the research claims there would be a minimum toll of £26 per day for motorists.





C'mon Jim, get with the program.

9

Edward,

12/01/2009 01:05:37
its facinating to see the same story in the Times written by Angus McLeod. I wonder if Angus and Hamish were in the same room when the Labour spin doctor told them what to write.
(check it out http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article5497431.ece )
10

Wardog™,

12/01/2009 01:41:42

9. Almost certainly Edward

Both are frothing at the mouth also much they have abandoned any form of analytical response to this issue, neither have even bothered to find out how much a PPP Option would cost in annual repayments.

Both seem to be beguiled by Jim Murphy's LONDON Labour spin machine.

How very parochial

11

subrosa,

12/01/2009 01:43:14
As I understand it John Swinney was going to meet with Mrs Balls as reported last week. He knows what he wants and he will argue against any of the labour money wasting plans.

Now The Long Ranger rides onto the scene desperate for the accolade of arranging the said meeting.

How low can he stoop? Jim, you're not even convincing 10 year olds with your verbosity.
12

Brian Hill,

12/01/2009 01:48:42
#3 Jwil said: "Murphy had to pile in with this suggestion to look as though he was action man only after Scottish Institutions supported the SNP plan."

Right on the button Jwil, and the more these and other institutions make a noise the more London Controlled Labour will have to back pedal to try and get itself out of this large elephant trap it has fallen into, a trap of its own creation.

Action Man Murphy going to broker a deal......give us a break.

#9 Edward: Fascinating isn't quite the word I would use, how about sinister manipulation of the facts, not to mention the introduction of lies and half truths being presented as facts by unionists in a blind panic?

There's a series about the Nazi's on Discovery or History channel and my goodness when it comes to propaganda.......
13

Fifi la Bonbon,

12/01/2009 02:03:19
Would one of the cybernats kindly post up their briefing notes from Mr Swinney on why the Scottish Futures Trust is now out the window?

Thanks.
14

Hmm ...,

12/01/2009 02:45:55
... I think that I would actually trust the SNP to borrow funds for major public projects. The last Labour lot, however, I definitely wouldn't have trusted even with the keys to the parliament building.

It is an interesting distinction, isn't it?
15

Alan Reid,

NZ 12/01/2009 03:34:10
2 Rufus-T-Firefly, Care to comment on the other story?

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/politics/Burning-Issue-Is-SNP-health.4864499.jp

Come on mate you can do it! Try and find SOMETHING that will make the SNP look bad.
Then again I notice there is NO Unionist having a pop at the SNP on that story, could it be that they know they would be on a hiding to nothing?
16

Alan Reid,

NZ 12/01/2009 03:39:55
Rufus???? Still no word from you about this little gem???!!!??

http://www.propertycommunity.com/property-in-the-uk/110-is-new-wembley-the-great-hope-for-the-future-or-a-great-white-elephant.html

"The timeline to completion
When the project was finally handed over to the Football Association on 9 March 2007 it was four years behind schedule and more than £500 million over the original cost estimate"

"These are just a few of the main events along the way although they do not give the whole story of the debacle which is the new Wembley project. Between 2003 and 2007 the cost of the project went from £240 million to £790 million with the UK taxpayer expected to give more and more towards the cost. This increased input from the taxpayer came from government funding as well as a number of smash and grabs on the National Lottery Fund"

And people wonder why there is very few good sporting facilities in Scotland????!!!!

Any Unionist out there willing to comment??

17

Alan Reid,

NZ 12/01/2009 03:50:16
13 Fifi la Bonbon, Why should Scotland help pay for the London underground?
I always was lead to believe that London is an economic power house.
I mean 40 billion to fund a bloody underground!!!
And Boris wants another 1.4 billion???!!!

“Lord Adonis said Transport for London, the mayor's transport authority, must fund the tube from a £40bn government grant that is supposed to cover its funding needs from 2010 to 2017. TfL argues that the funds are insufficient because they must cover the cost of running a heavily subsidised bus network and London's £7.7bn contribution to the Crossrail project, while paying for a tube upgrade programme in which the budget is escalating.
"TfL got a large injection of funds from the government. How it prioritises funding from that is a matter for TfL, not for us," said Lord Adonis. He added: "We don't accept that TfL does not have the money." The minister added that the funding settlement included a provision for higher-than-expected tube costs”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/nov/04/boris-london

And the SNP wanted to have some of SCOTLAND’s money in advance to help spread the cost of the Forth Bridge, and Westminster said …………eh no!

Nice to be part of a fair and just Union.
18

David MacVicar,

web 12/01/2009 04:56:38
I think Alan Reid hits the nail on the head.

Scotlands infrastruvture (what little thereis of it) is falling apart due to decades of under investment under unionist administration.

What happened to 'stronger together' when as soon as Scotland needs infra funding we get told to GetTaeF.

Meanwhile in London Central we all pay and pay.

The Unionists should use the bridge showing the strength of the UK coming to benefit poor we Scotland, but no, they are so blinded by centralised self interest and hate for the SNP that we end up in a Crises.

Scottish Fiscal Control: no crises, full transparency, full flexibility, full accountability. Anathema to the Unionist snake oil Salesmen as it will show the complete waste of space Westminster is and was.

19

Pilrig,

Livingston 12/01/2009 05:48:40
13 - back to the taxpayer-unfriendly PFI ?
20

,

12/01/2009 06:39:58
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,

12/01/2009 06:43:49
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22

,

12/01/2009 07:15:28
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23

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 12/01/2009 07:23:14
Is Jim Murphy in power in Scotland, or has he received a phone call from london. The fact of the matter remains that the SNP are in control of power in Scotland by the ELECTORATE and no one else.
Oh please roll on REFERENDUM DAY, INDEPENDENCE IS OUR ONLY WAY OUT OF THIS MESS WITH THE english government.
Oh by the way, the result will be that SCOTLAND will be attending the Olympic Games in her OWN right as an INDEPENDENT COUNTRY and england will not be there,she will be part of something called gb?
24

Faux Cul,

12/01/2009 07:24:54
#11
subrosa,
12/01/2009 01:43:14

"The Long Ranger"

Hmm

You got it right nearly

Murphy is the PPP Loan Aranger, so he hopes.
25

tartan army 2222,

12/01/2009 07:44:37
Hamish - A+ for spinning a headline.
26

Alan Reid,

NZ 12/01/2009 07:52:37
18 David MacVicar,web, Thank you Dave, but still no word from our Unionist friends............
Rufus where are you!!!!!
27

donald anderson it's me,

glasgow 12/01/2009 07:59:34
It took me more than 20 years to pay off my mortgage, so why shouldn't a bridge loan not take as long?
28

brownlie,

12/01/2009 08:10:29
26 Rules

You're surely not suggesting that all those from Fife who lost jobs under this Labour Government will never work again?
29

Ewan Randall,

12/01/2009 08:31:04
One possible solution to the impasse would be for the Scottish Government to be granted borrowing powers. That would allow Scottish ministers to borrow money from international markets for big, one-off projects such as the new Forth bridge and then to spread repayments over a number of years.
30

Ewan Randall,

12/01/2009 08:33:13
Revised:

“One possible solution to the impasse would be for the Scottish Government to be granted borrowing powers. That would allow Scottish ministers to borrow money from international markets for big, one-off projects such as the new Forth bridge and then to spread repayments over a number of years.”

Could this be the most sensible suggestion made so far?
31

Ewan Randall,

12/01/2009 08:42:29
(#26) – (Rulesbutnotrulers) – Do you believe there should be a new bridge?

Do you think the hassle of employing workers for the construction of the bridge is worth it, possibly even from Fife itself?
32

Hugo of Garven,

12/01/2009 08:43:26
"They are trying to borrow money against budgets that don't even yet exist over a period of two decades."

Like taking out a mortgage on a house?
33

Alastair the First,

12/01/2009 08:51:36
***Mr Murphy said: "I'm inviting the SNP government and the Treasury to talks despite the way in which the SNP's played politics with this. ***

You've got to give the man 10 out of 10 for cheek. From where I'm standing, Labour are the ones trying to play politics, rejecting what everyone else thinks is a sensible solution, simply because it is an SNP idea. Time we had a press that was less uncritical of Labour, that didn't spin everything to try to make Labour look good.
34

alanh,

ek 12/01/2009 08:55:50
What's the point of this article, Murphy's intervention or even Murphy himself?
"Mr Murphy said: "I'm inviting the SNP government and the Treasury to talks despite the way in which the SNP's played politics with this. The sums don't add up. They are trying to borrow money against budgets that don't even yet exist over a period of two decades."
It clearly shows by his quote that he has already made up his mind and simply wants to fight with our govt.
SNP have even tried a compromise with westmonster by suggesting 10 years but that aint allowed.
It seems that Nu lie-bour dogma of private is best is getting in the way of a sensible approach.
Look out for more Murphy "headlines" as that headless chicken tries to look like he is doing something for us, when in reality like in this article he has put party before country
35

,

12/01/2009 08:57:20
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36

Ewan Randall,

12/01/2009 09:03:32
(#18) – (David MacVicar) – Do you think it the case that, periodically, infrastructure deteriorates in many areas in many regions of the UK?

Wouldn’t the infrastructure in all of those places then be falling apart due to decades of under investment under unionist administration?

Do you like the sentiment in the wedding vow “in sickness and in health”?

Do you think a bridge shows great unity between areas of the nation?

Has Westminster been any less full of snake oil salesmen than the Scottish parliament of old, or even today?
37

Melly,

Dunblane 12/01/2009 09:03:51
"But despite the fact the SNP sums don't add up, it is important that we do make progress which is why I'm inviting them to these talks. Because it is important that we build this new Forth crossing, we want the right crossing at the right price. I think we can make progress."
Can Numpty Murphy enlighten us on his Industrial and Financial background and experiences that allow him the make these conclusions?
38

drunken proffet,

Tassy 12/01/2009 09:04:14
If you want to build a bridge, you have to persuade the London Establishment that it is and essential vote winning project. Since it isn't , you have no chance. I would mention that if the Scottish Government wants to put the knife in, there was a bridge down south that was built to encourage industry into a truly destitute part of the UK. I believe Barbara Castle organised it though cannot be sure. Lets face it, Scotland is not destitute and with a bit of luck will never reach that state. Just keep nagging them, it is a bit like singing off key outside an Irish pub, eventually they will pay you to go away.
39

Ewan Randall,

12/01/2009 09:11:17
(#19) – (Richard) – Does Murphy have the right to try and save the Labour Government’s face?

Is he being two faced?

Should the Labour Government take it like a man and turn the other cheek?

Or should they face the facts, as some might see it, and move aside and let the Tories take their turn?
40

A Scott,

Newton Mearns 12/01/2009 09:13:00
Noticed that none of the "Scottish" press took up Tommy Tans comments about Murphy printed in the Sunday Times .....I made a wee bet with myself that they wouldnt print the comments and of course they didnt,
41

Calum10,

12/01/2009 09:18:58
It appears that Jim Murphy is spending most of his days twiddling his thumbs thinking of things he can do.

Go get a proper job Jim, tell Gordon you can be his butler.
42

Rodster,

Glasgow 12/01/2009 09:27:10
Murphy is a self seeking ,brown noser of the worst kind .
Roll on the election where he will join the ranks of unseated .
alas my MP I will be working as hard as I can to help oust him
43

scottishcoffindodgerno1,

Tram City 12/01/2009 09:35:59
32#you see that is the problem,the word SENSIBLE,unionsts don't know what it means.
44

,

12/01/2009 09:38:09
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45

Embra Don,

12/01/2009 09:43:13
#9 Edward,
As usual they simply transcribed the same handout.
46

noswod,

Honestas 12/01/2009 09:55:29
Hello you Scotties, you canny have a free Bridge paid for by WHitehall. Your additional Govt spend per head of £1,644 is enough. If you want a cheap scaled doon bridge withoot a PFI you have got to start cutting down on your blowted levels of public expenditure. Closing down the Methadrone programme at £80m pa would be a start. Its time to get out of the dependency culture mode, when you travel on the train over the Forth Rail bridge you don't expect it to be free. If you take your car over a new bridge you have to pay for it as well and its either a £1 or 2p in the £ on income tax. Economic reality is something that the SNP or the Scots political establishment does not understand expecting handoot over handoot frae Whitehall and by the way gizza £350bn tae bail oot the banks.
47

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 12/01/2009 09:57:55
There has been some debate regarding the economic impact of re-introducing tolls for the new crossing.
Bearing in mind that the tolls revenues all accrue to the private undertaking responsible for their collection.
How do the proponents of this system believe the following charges would affect the local economy?

The Second Severn Crossing-Toll charges.
Toll Category Description 2009 Charge
Category 1 Cars and min £5.40
Category 2 Vans up to 3.5 tons £10.90
Category 3 Buses/HGV £16.30
48

Miss H,

12/01/2009 10:02:53
This is about 2 things. Firstly and more importantly it indicates a deal is on the cards. Secondly it is further evidence that Jim Murphy is the real leader of Labour in Scotland.

My understanding is that the Tories are going all out to win his seat at Westminster. Perhaps he is considering transferring to the Scottish Parliament - Motherwell and Wishaw by-election?
49

Euan McEwan,

12/01/2009 10:12:13
How many local authority houses did labour build during their term of office? Did someone say 8?

is it significant that we do not see this featured in this paper?


From The Herald:


Housing schemes ‘hit record numbers’

A record number of public sector house-building schemes were started during the SNP's first year in power, Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said today.

It came after the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations warned Scotland is set to fall short of the 10,000 new homes needed for rent in 2009/10. Work got under way on almost 5700 houses in 2007/08, more than any year since the early 1990s, according to Ms Sturgeon.

And she said: "After years of neglect and broken promises from the previous administration, this Scottish Government is investing significantly in public housing again.
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"In our first year in office more public sector houses were started than at any time since 1997. The previous administration abandoned council housing with only six council houses built during the last four years in office.

"This government has kick-started a new generation of council housing and I want to see more councils getting involved in building homes for rent." Councils across Scotland started 432 council houses in 2007/08. Work also got under way on nearly 5000 houses for social rent through bodies such as housing associations.
50

Rasco,

12/01/2009 10:44:51
Off topic but I see 2 Lab MSPs want the PFI car parking hospitals to stop the charges even to the extent of buying out the contract just where do these people come from I wonder what Murph's take is on this one.Clowns all of them.
51

sid the sceptic,

PAISLEY 12/01/2009 11:15:11
peter@54- will Gordie be going to Iceland ? - no . Mr brown went on his regional tour last week and missed out north Britain completely so Iceland has no chance. unless they have a shop round the corner from downing street.
52

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 12/01/2009 11:23:40
IF, the Scottish Government fails to publicly fund a new Forth Crossing then be prepared for another PPP project.

A similar scheme, the Second Severn Crossing was a PPP project.

The SSC website provides details of the exceptionally high cost of tolls which vary between £5.40 for cars and £16.30 for buses and lorries.

The tolls concession does not end until 2052.

Next decade, tolls on a new PPP Forth Crossing will probably cost even more and last even longer?
53

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/01/2009 11:27:35
I agree with Miss H a deal is on the cards, labour and yer man Murphy are trying to get the credit as always. I really like the line they are pushing we are helping the SNP with the sums.

Labour and arithmetic, it would be funny it not so serious, honestly I couldn't say it with a straight face.

The only information put into the public domain about PFI/PPP costs are from the Cuthbertson's. Andy Kerr had his Lindsay Roy moment, rubbishing the figures and calling them politically motivated, of course he was unable to produce his own figures.

That's what happens when you don't have the best minds in the civil service doing your political donkey work Andy! Those same minds are now being used to problem solve, do you see the difference?
54

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 12/01/2009 11:41:38
#56

See #50 above
55

antifa,

12/01/2009 11:55:26
This is yet another demonstration of how much Scotland needs fiscal independence. Currently, it can't borrow on its own account so HMG is trying to get it to borrow through a private sector intermediary - even though all the evidence shows that PPP is much more expensive.

Hopefully, the chance for fiscal independence will come in 2010 - Scotland will reject outright independence, that is pretty clear, unless the polls are completely wrong. But they need to be given this option, which will address most of the problems we currently have, even it won't satisfy anti-English obsessives like Scotindy and Guga etc.
56

ochone,

Sauchie, Clacks 12/01/2009 11:57:29
Aye right, Jim Murphy will do exactly as he is told to do, just like every other Sect'of State for Scotland that there's ever been.
57

daveserviceman,

edinburgh 12/01/2009 12:09:55
I would support it if it was a tunnel, this would not be effected by the weather a bridge is open to the elements and traffic restrictions on bad weather days.
so it would be better to spend a little extra and have the tunnel. it works well elsewhere liverpool has two tunnels uneffected by the weather a couple of tunnels under the thames one under the channel not effected by the storms only idiots with a box of matches
58

daveserviceman,

edinburgh 12/01/2009 12:15:18
I also do not think twenty years is a long time to pay back a loan it should be granted, lets face it gordon has put a mill stone around our great grandchildrens necks with all the borrowing he has just done. so lets have the loan to build a crossing. of course the scottish government could issue j***us boots to everyone
59

AJ Fife,

12/01/2009 12:15:18
It's a disgrace we can't comment on the McAvennie story. The Scotsman Gestapo at its worst.....yet again!
60

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12/01/2009 12:18:59
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12/01/2009 12:21:03
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62

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 12/01/2009 12:34:29
Here is a list of “Scottish Secretaries of State” covering the last 45 years.

How many of these individuals are remembered as having contributed anything of significant benefit to Scotland?

I can think of perhaps one, and even he, the millionaire Donald Dewar, was driven mainly by a desire to attempt to thwart Nationalist aspirations.

The rest? Mere footnotes in the annals of history.


• William Ross (18 October 1964 - 19 June 1970)
• Gordon Campbell (20 June 1970 - 4 March 1974)
• William Ross (5 March 1974 - 8 April 1976)
• Bruce Millan (8 April 1976 - 4 May 1979)
• George Younger (5 May 1979 - 11 January 1986)
• Malcolm Rifkind (11 January 1986 - 28 November 1990)
• Ian Lang (28 November 1990 - 5 July 1995)
• Michael Forsyth (5 July 1995 - 2 May 1997)
• Donald Dewar (3 May 1997 - 17 May 1999)
• John Reid (17 May 1999 - 25 January 2001)
• Helen Liddell (25 January 2001 - 13 June 2003)
• Alistair Darling (13 June 2003- 5 May 2006)
• Douglas Alexander (5 May 2006-27 June 2007)
• Des Browne (28 June 2007 - 3 October 2008)
• Jim Murphy (3 October 2008 - present)
63

David MacVicar,

web 12/01/2009 12:50:22
38 Ewan Randall;

There is a clear,obvious and recognised (since decades) North/South divide in the UK. I am Not saying the divide is at the border it is as you get near the North of England.
Comparing infrastructure investment, such as links to 3 Motorways near Bristol since decades, compared to Scotland not having one full section, whatsoever.

Maybe you haven't noticed, but may have that our 70s level infra has been falling apart.'In sivkness and in healyh' - When was the health period and what did we get during these boon years?

"Do you think a bridge shows great unity between areas of the nation?"
Irrelevent. National scale investment for Nations not regions. You know like us/all paying for Chunnel, can I have some investment our way please Mr Chancellor.

"Has Westminster been any less full of snake oil salesmen than the Scottish parliament of old, or even today?"
It is Wesminster who holds or withholds all the keys and levers here, time they didn't, since there is a clear conflict of interests somehow and I see no proof of the Union benifting us overall, just the opposite.
64

MoClana,

12/01/2009 12:52:25
This paper is relentless in publishing its New Labour propeganda, where else does it try to spin broons stories, well they also own:

-JOHNSTON PRESS QUEST TRUSTEES LIMITED
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-BUTE NEWSPAPERS LIMITED
-THE SCOTSMAN PUBLICATIONS LIMITED
-JOHNSTON PRESS PLC

65

MoClana,

12/01/2009 12:54:01
and.......

EDINBURGH BROADCASTING COMPANY LIMITED
BARROW BROADCASTING COMPANY LIMITED
PRESTON BROADCASTING COMPANY LIMITED
BLACKBURN BROADCASTING COMPANY LIMITED
ROTHERHAM BROADCASTING COMPANY LIMITED
FLEETWOOD MEDIA LIMITED
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LANCASHIRE PUBLICATIONS LIMITED
CHORLEY GUARDIAN COMPANY LIMITED(THE)
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EAST LANCASHIRE NEWSPAPERS LIMITED
LANCASTER & MORECAMBE NEWSPAPERS LIMITED
CENTRAL LANCASHIRE PRINTERS LIMITED

66

MoClana,

12/01/2009 12:58:10
Seems like philip Cooper (director) and who stays in Linlithgow ( i wont print his adress) has quite alot of influence on the electorate, and must be on Gordon Browns Xmas card list.

I wonder how you cross reference the above with Labour party donations ?
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12/01/2009 14:05:05
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gordon'sboomhasbust,

glasgow 12/01/2009 14:07:10
Poor Jim Swinney.
Invited to a meeting with Yvette Cooper and Jim Murphy. What a horrendous thought. I have to turn the sound down when either of them come on the telly as they just spout UK Government NuLab propoganda gobbledygook.
And Labour have form on bridge building finance. There must be a good book due out on the Skye Bridge scandal.
69

gordon'sboomhasbust,

glasgow 12/01/2009 14:08:13
#77
oops John Swinney, not Jim. Was thinking of Lurch Murphy too much
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Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/01/2009 14:12:16
76 Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,Lochindorb 12/01/2009 14:05:05
Just managed to stop laughing enough to type.
===============================================

Pity.
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Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/01/2009 14:16:31
22 A genuine account,12/01/2009 06:43:49
It wasnt funny the first time you posted it and it wont be funny when you post it for the last time either.
====================================================

As opposed to your posts of course.

All of which are hilarious.
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Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/01/2009 14:37:56
83 I actually knew she was born in Inverness, so do you think she is Scottish? More importantly does she? Was she raised and educated in Scotland?

I mean Tony Blair is he Scottish?

Ian Duncan Smith was born in Edinburgh when his dad served at Turnhouse, would you describe IDS as Scottish?

You really do fancy her SM753 don't you!!
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Wardog™,

12/01/2009 14:49:58

83. What is Scottish?

76

Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/01/2009 14:51:06
85 Tormod,Auld Reekie 12/01/2009 14:37:56

Yes they are all Scottish.

Didn't you know?

Barack Obama is Scottish as well, according to Alex Salmond.

And Scrooge McDuck and Pontius Pilat.
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Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/01/2009 14:52:11
86 Wardog™,12/01/2009 14:49:58

83. What is Scottish?
=======================================
Shortbread.
Haggis.
Whisky.
Neds.

Probably a few other things too.
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Wardog™,

12/01/2009 14:55:53


88. oh Dear....... you really manage to elt yourself down at every opportunity don't you.

What is British?

79

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/01/2009 14:57:35
Rufus I've read well I say read your posts, I would probably they say that I wouldn't leave you in charge of scissors in case you hurt yourself.
80

Wardog™,

12/01/2009 14:58:16


83. Any thoughts on the anticipated additional £1.7BILLIOn cost of a the current bridge design under PPP?

Labour are in disarray over this., on the Herald we have Labour MSP's asking for PFI Hospitals to scrap parking charges......

How long do you think they can keep up this charade?

PS What is it that makes you so proud to be Scottish?



81

Wardog™,

12/01/2009 14:58:59


88. Are you Scottish Rufus?

What does it mean to you?

82

Wardog™,

12/01/2009 14:59:45

92. "I've met her dad a couple of times."

You fancy him don't you.....

83

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 12/01/2009 15:03:21
What will happen to all those Scotsman hacks and scribblers when the biggest political story in the last 100 years (maybe more) comes true?
And the Scots finally achieve independence from their "British" masters.
It's the elephant in the room that they have not only tried to ignore, but have gone out of their way to obstruct.
Will their reclusive Tamil gaffer finally come out of hiding and fire their sorry @sses down the road?
Eck is playing the Westminster Labour clods like a fine violin on this one.
Go ahead, don't build the Forth Bridge. But how 'bout them Olympics?
See you at the next election, Broon.


84

Wardog™,

12/01/2009 15:04:58

COMRADE MURPHY: IN THE MIDST OF THE RED MENANCE

Jim Murphy, the Scottish secretary, flirted with the Revolutionary Communist party (RCP) during his student days and regarded members of Labour’s hard left Militant Tendency as TOO SOFT.

The RCP, an extreme Trotskyist group, defended the Serbs during the Bosnian conflict, despite evidence of widespread ethnic cleansing, demanded the withdrawal of British troops from Northern Ireland and claimed accusations of child abuse were designed to stigmatise working-class men.

According to the party’s ideology, the British working class could not be relied upon to mount a revolution because it had become “contaminated” by bourgeois values. Instead, its aim was to form the vanguard of a world revolution.

It refused to support the Labour party and regarded other left-wingers who worked within the democratic system as “reformist” lackeys.

“He was a supporter of the Irish cause and things like Palestinian stuff and anti-apartheid. He dumped the Irish and Middle East stuff when he [became an MP] and suddenly became a friend of Israel.”

The party campaigned for the abolition of the anti-terrorism legislation and for the immediate withdrawal of British troops from Northern Ireland.

Later it defended Serbs against accusations of mistreating Bosnian Muslims, despite evidence of concentration camps and mass graves.
85

Wardog™,

12/01/2009 15:09:21

LABOUR IS IDEOLOGICAL LY WED TO PFI

PPP, payable over 30 years at a rate of interest of 7.5%, would accrue another £1.7bn in operations, maintenance and lifecycle costs.

The £4bn figure, which includes maintenance costs for the existing bridge, would result in the taxpayer being charged £353m a year to meet the annual repayment charges for the PPP deal.

If the bill had to be picked up by the bridge user, rather than the taxpayer, the research claims there would be a minimum toll of £26 per day for motorists.

The toll would increase if motorists avoided the high bridge tax, according to the trio. The tolling level of £24.74 would have to also include the annual maintenance of £15m which would equate to £1 on the toll. We have a minimum toll of £26 per day."

Labour finance spokesman Andy Kerr said: " couch, splutter, fatcat friends....who ate all the pies...."

86

Wardog™,

12/01/2009 15:11:15

PFI: LABOUR"S DEBT TO OUT CHILDREN

Gross Revenue expenditure in 2005-06 on primary education was £1.6 billion

Gross Revenue expenditure in 2005-06 on secondary education was £1.8 billion

Gross Revenue expenditure in 2005-06 on special education was £0.45 billion

Pre-School education and other revenue expenditure of about £0.52 billion

Total local authority education expenditure in 2005 of £4.4 billion.

Currently repayments on PFI projects is over £0.8 BILLION

That's almost one FIFTH of the total local authority education expenditure!!!

PPP projects are funded by the private sector, with local authorities financing them over future years. The initial cost of building projects funded in this way will therefore not appear in the capital expenditure figures, but will lead to an increase in the revenue spend in future years.

This money is going on repayments, not on front line services

Mortgage your children indeed.
87

gordon'sboomhasbust,

glasgow 12/01/2009 15:13:24
How do you know if a Scotsman is a McDonald ?

Put your hand under his kilt and see if he has a quarter pounder.
88

fair scunnered,

edinburgh 12/01/2009 15:18:57
how come the irish gov is allowed to borrow cash?
why did darling state that birmingham could get some cash released early?
good enough for england,damn good enough for scotland
89

Westfield Bairns,

falkirk 12/01/2009 15:19:44
Jim Murphy will do anything to get in the headlines so as to justify his non job. The plan will be simple, the bridge must be double the going price with contracts going to his Nulabour supporting Companies, it's called the Nulabour tender process.
Just of topic, who thinks Jim Murphy and Iain Gray are best buddies
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Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/01/2009 15:38:13
sm753 Is it a case that you were born in Scotland, but have grown up and lived elsewhere?
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12/01/2009 15:39:20
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12/01/2009 15:41:12
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Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/01/2009 15:46:25
113 Aye.
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12/01/2009 15:47:25
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Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/01/2009 15:48:54
93 Wardog™,12/01/2009 14:58:59


88. Are you Scottish Rufus? (yes)

What does it mean to you? (what a weird question)
102

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12/01/2009 15:50:36
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Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/01/2009 15:51:05
116 Rufus be careful with that bread knife!
104

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/01/2009 15:52:04
119 Great question!
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Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/01/2009 15:52:51
Rufus what about the word "Barrie"?
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Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/01/2009 15:55:41
122 I haven't heard that one for ages!
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Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/01/2009 15:59:04
123 Oh another classic from childhood, Rufus try looking up "play piece".
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Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/01/2009 16:02:28
129 GA I haven't heard those since my days of being a street urchin in Muirhouse.
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brownlie,

12/01/2009 16:14:53
127 A genuine account

Is Frank McAvennie one?
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Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/01/2009 16:19:07
132 / 134 Would the correct term be a pagger merchant?
121

Wardog™,

12/01/2009 16:19:46


16. "What does it mean to you? (what a weird question"

Is really that weird, if I asked any other person on the planet what their nation meant to them, I'm fairly certain that they could answer me without a blink of an eye.

Now apart from the 'shortbred, neds and haggis" that you mentioned earlier, what is it about this nation that you like?




Is being Scottish more then just being born in Scotland Rufus?
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12/01/2009 16:20:27
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Embra Don,

12/01/2009 16:22:18
#53 Rasco,
Maybe that is their plan for a PFI bridge? Build a £1.7bn brigdge for 3.5bm under pfi, then when no one can afford the £26 toll , we buy it from the bank for £45bn - just like the Skye bridge
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12/01/2009 16:23:15
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brownlie,

12/01/2009 16:25:41
133 sm753

You don't need several slices to make a sandwich.
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12/01/2009 16:25:44
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Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/01/2009 16:27:05
140 I was from the old drive, my old house got demolished in 96.

It's a wee small world right enough.
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Wardog™,

12/01/2009 16:27:11

Rufus seems to have become a bit unstuck with regards his identity.

He seems to equate Scottishness with only negative and inconsequential stereotypicall things where as BRITISHNESS is something that should be embraced by all.

What is it that makes Britian GREAT Rufus?

129

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/01/2009 16:29:45
143 You must have missed the bit when transport scotland did that?
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Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/01/2009 16:29:48
140 A genuine account,12/01/2009 16:23:15
131

Ah wis a street urchin in Muirhoose tae 20 Muirhoose Park. The
================================================
Is that true?

I worked in the bookies there in Pennywell (along from the Gunner) for 4 years when I went to university.
131

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/01/2009 16:35:10
148 Nope only you I am afraid!
132

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/01/2009 16:38:17
147 As a matter of interest, what did you study?
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Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/01/2009 16:43:30
150

Business Organisation and Economics

I await the witty reply!
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Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/01/2009 16:47:06
137 Wardog™,12/01/2009 16:19:46
16. "What does it mean to you? (what a weird question"
Is really that weird, if I asked any other person on the planet what their nation meant to them, I'm fairly certain that they could answer me without a blink of an eye.
Now apart from the 'shortbred, neds and haggis" that you mentioned earlier, what is it about this nation that you like?

Is being Scottish more then just being born in Scotland Rufus?
==================================================
I dont have any great nationalistic tendencies wardog.

There are good things about Scotland.

There are bad things about Scotland.

Just because I was born here and lived all my life here does not mean to say I must love everything about Scotland and must vote SNP.
138

Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/01/2009 16:48:28
153 A genuine account,12/01/2009 16:43:43
147

I still nash to the bus stop every morning.

Do you think Gordon Brown is Barry?
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12/01/2009 16:49:11
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Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/01/2009 16:49:23
151 Daniel sometimes I read your posts and wonder, this is one is in that category. If you think that the bridge design or the tendering process is flawed or there has been malfeasance on the part of Transport Scotland or the Scottish Government, raise a FOI and bring your case moral or legal.
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Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/01/2009 16:49:25
154 A genuine account,12/01/2009 16:45:12
152

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Where they closed on the days you turned up fur the lectures?
==================================================

And you slagged off my SNP Rapid Response Team joke?
142

Wardog™,

12/01/2009 16:49:40


151. You can read about Labour's dilly dallying hee, along with Architecture + Design Scotland's hailing of the new bridge design as an elegant and extremely well engineered piece of infrastructure here..... the new configuration meets cost effectiveness, sustainable and visual impact requirements....

http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/projects/forth-replacement-crossing/information-centre/frc-study



143

Miss H,

12/01/2009 16:49:46
81 I don't think he will. Jim Murphy is not actually stupid. He would not be getting involved unless he thought the issue can be resolved. If he wants to get some of the credit for it I don't think that will bother John Swinney overly because he is a pretty generous and consensual person.
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12/01/2009 16:50:18
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Wardog™,

12/01/2009 16:51:06



The Forth Replacement Crossing will include the following key elements:

* A new cable-stayed bridge with three single column towers, windshielding and a single deck carrying two general lanes of traffic and hard shoulders in each direction


* Use of the existing Forth Road Bridge as a dedicated public transport corridor for buses, taxis, pedestrians and cyclists


* High-quality dual carriageway connecting roads which link to the A90 and M9 in the south, making use of the recently completed M9 spur


* High-quality dual carriageway connecting roads linking the M90/A90 in the north, with junction enhancements at Admiralty and Ferrytoll and road widening between those junctions


* Use of modern Intelligent Transport System technology along the full length of the scheme


* Opportunity for introduction of Light Rapid Transit (LRT) on the Forth Road Bridge if required in the future

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12/01/2009 16:51:07
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Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/01/2009 16:52:01
The bookies at Muirhouse was so bad that they had bouncers on the door.

A few fights happened in there and I was out amongst them all as I was the board marker.
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Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/01/2009 16:53:01
152 No witty reply just wondering.
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Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/01/2009 16:54:34
165 A genuine account,12/01/2009 16:50:18
158

Do you? so who is your Scottish friend you managed to finally find?
====================================================
I Went to Craigmount.

Just because I dont walk about in a kilt eating haggis like you do, does not make me any less Scottish.
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12/01/2009 16:54:41
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Wardog™,

12/01/2009 16:54:48
157. Rufus why do you find it so difficult to list the good things about Scotland? - I'm not asking you to vote SNP or indeed to even believe that Scotland should be a normal independent nation state.

I'm genuinely interested in knowing what's behind your ideas, i.e. what is that you like about your self proclaimed dual /triple identity and why it's any different from anyone else?

I'll repeat the question, what are the good things about Scotland?

Why shouldn't Scotland be independent?


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Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/01/2009 16:54:55
160 My paper round was the green and park, pinks on a Saturday!
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Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/01/2009 16:58:27
171 A genuine account,12/01/2009 16:54:41
168

Aye right no doubt you met my Dad then or at least yer pal did. Ask him if he can name any of the Doctors that worked in the surgery what was the name of that street again just off pennywell road where the surgery was I forget?
=================================================
No idea
I did not live there.
I only worked in the Bookies on a Saturday.
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Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/01/2009 16:59:24
174 A genuine account,12/01/2009 16:56:14
170

So you think an average Scot walks about in a kilt eating haggis? funnily enough I would never have said that about a fellow Scot and neither would any other Scot.
======================================================

No if you re-read my post, I never mentioned any average Scots.

I was talking about you.
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Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/01/2009 17:01:23
176 Rufus If you went to Craigmount I am guessing you lived in East Craigs or Bughtlin?
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Wardog™,

12/01/2009 17:04:01


174 Interesting isn't it, you could stop someone on the street in any Scottish town or city today and ask them about what makes them proud to be Scottish and the answers that would come back would vary form bagpipes through to our humour.

Rufus instead plays semantic games and is obviously incredibly uncomfortable about talking about such things and in his depression over these matters he finds the need to attack the SNP as some form of symbol for these cultural icons....

Never is there any alternative vision,, positive alternative or indeed thoughtful compromise form our erstwhile self loather as he tears himself up about what it means to be Scottish.

Patently for Rufus, it's nothing more than being born at a certain postcode.

He's either a complete left wing fruitcake bent on world uniformity (a bit like a young Jim Murphy before the New Labour Borg got a hold of him) or he's a crypto right wing facisit who harps after a GREATER Britain of empire.

To hide behind the couch and torch civic nationalism, which is the norm in EVERY other country is very peculiar indeed.

What is Scotland when within the UK?



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Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/01/2009 17:04:50
177 Rufus I think you are making the classic error that Scot Nats are woad covered swivel eyed english haters, when we are not, I would love to have a civilised discussion about why Scotland should be an independent country.

As a lot of the time nats we spend on these boards is trying to understand why unionists are so hostile to democracy and being treated as a grown up.
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Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/01/2009 17:04:54
172 Wardog™,12/01/2009 16:54:48
I'll repeat the question, what are the good things about Scotland?

Edinburgh, and maybe the Highlands.

Why shouldn't Scotland be independent?

I am not saying it should not be independent. Far from it. If the people want it then great.

I am just a voter like anyone else.

But I tell you something. I work in London quite a lot. I have loads of great friends down there. I also have loads of great English friends in Edinburgh. I have a lot more in common with them than I do with anyone I have ever met from Glasgow, put it that way.

The economic argument is unimportant to me.
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Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/01/2009 17:06:40
180 Daniel I didn't reach for my lawyer my lexicon is all mine. Daniel why don't you get to your point instead of beating round the bush spell it out man!
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Wardog™,

12/01/2009 17:08:14


163. AI?

The new streamlined bridge has been designed to complement the existing road and rail crossings and is the result of a rigorous assessment by an international team of architects and engineers. who have delivered bridges all over the world.

It's a very specialised construction sector.

Overall the SNP's chosen strategy seems to provide all the benefits required - more reliable journeys, improved connections to the trunk road network, a dedicated public transport corridor and future opportunity for LRT - for significantly less cost and less environmental impact.


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12/01/2009 17:08:57
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Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/01/2009 17:10:09
184 So what is your main objection to an independent Scotland?
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Son of one of Stirlings finest,

Weston S Mare 12/01/2009 17:10:53
184# Rufus,
Happy new year to you Rufus, Aberdeenshire Scot was busy yesterday, his partner Cecil bought him a medical dictionary for Xmas, and he cut and pasted nearly the whole book, it was almost funny.
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Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/01/2009 17:11:28
183 Tormod,Auld Reekie 12/01/2009 17:04:50
As a lot of the time nats we spend on these boards is trying to understand why unionists are so hostile to democracy and being treated as a grown up.
====================================================
Treated as grown up?

Have you seen the personal abuse that has been directed at me on here?

Not once has any Nat condemned it. However if I reply in kind to the abuse, all the Nats gang up and add to the abuse.

So please dont give me the grown up bit!

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Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/01/2009 17:13:25
Happy New Year Son of one of Stirlings finest.

Yes Aberdeenshire Scot has totally flipped as I expected he would.

I don't want to really say anymore about it though as I do not want to mock the afflicted.
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Grahamski,

Falkirk 12/01/2009 17:14:56
172
What a strange wee obsessive you are, Wardoggy. You seem to spend your entire day asking the same question to unsuspecting posters like some kind of demented tartan troll.
Whya re you so obsessed with hearing what people like about Scotland. Do you need reassurance?
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Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/01/2009 17:17:00
189 Tormod,Auld Reekie 12/01/2009 17:10:09
184 So what is your main objection to an independent Scotland?
=====================================================

I have no objection to it.

174

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/01/2009 17:17:37
191 Easy there laddie, lots of folk take part in debate on these threads, in fact this is the most rational discussion I've had with yourself and seen.

Rufus if you argue your standpoint and give reason to your argument, anybody who abuses anybody else on these forums could be sent packing.

The grown up bit was about being treated as an adult when dealing with the decisions taking in Scotland and expecting those who oppose independence to be more honest than saying too wee, stupid etc. If you believe in the union you should be able to mount a case without using children's fairy tales to scare folk to you way of thinking.
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Son of one of Stirlings finest,

Weston S Mare 12/01/2009 17:17:41
193# Rufus , I agree that Aberdeenshire Scot is desperately sad, he is now posting under my moniker, so dont take at face value any comments that include you or malign the Union.
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Wardog™,

12/01/2009 17:17:49

14. Rufus

At last some information, thankyou for being upfront about it and yes it does go someway to explaining your ideas.

I'm not sure what having English. Nigerian or indeed Venezuelan freidns hads got to do with nationalism or defining what you like about your nation?

I love Edinburgh because it's a historic and beautiful European city, I love Glasgow for the same reason, both cities are very different but patently very Scottish. I love visiting London but I also revel in Chicago, Stockholm and Copenhagen., two of which I feel a closer affinity to than London., none of which colour's my own thoughts on self determination for Scotland.

In some ways my question as you've rightly pointed out is a false question, yes htere are many things which I like and dislike about Scotland, that isn't the point. You either feel part of the Scottish nation or you don't, it ISN'T necessarily a birthright, it's a choice that you make ......

You choose Scottish citizenship or at least I'd like to think you could should Scotland ever be independent. Just as I could choose american citizenship or indeed New Zealand citizenship.....

Being part of that nation is a whole mixture of things but until Scots can make that choice then it's lost and subsumed within the construct of the UK's parliamentary system which is quite frankly stale, rotting as it has since 1707.

I agree, the argument isn't over the financial aspects of independence, it's accepted that Scotland like any other nation would survive quite happily in the world of nations and scots would simply need to develop their taxation, energy and spend polivcies to suit their GDP, the real question is to do with Scots exerting their self determination through a referendum.

For probably different reasons, you & I probably agree that one must be held to sort this out.
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Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/01/2009 17:18:40
188 A genuine account,12/01/2009 17:08:57
184

You work in London a lot? and I thought you couldnt be funny sorry Rufus I take it back you do have a sense of humour after all.
========================================================
What is funny about that?

I work in Edinburgh, but I make trips to London.

Mind you the trips have been cut back somewhat in the current climate.
179

Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/01/2009 17:19:27
Good Evening Spook.

Got that rigged poll sorted out yet?
180

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/01/2009 17:19:43
192 Daniel again if you have something to say, say it man come on get off your chest!

194 Grahamski please be quiet as the grown ups are trying to have an adult conversation.
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12/01/2009 17:20:49
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Grahamski,

Falkirk 12/01/2009 17:21:19
205
Grown ups? Well, aren't you just the droll troll.......
183

Wardog™,

12/01/2009 17:21:58
194. I refer you to 200.

Grahamski, another person who seems to have problems entertaining the idea of national identity as anything more than being born in a certain postcode....

Yet, when this applied at UK level, oor Graham get's all shirty with bravado and talks the hind donkey off a donkey like smee about the greatness of being British.

What is the difference between being Scottish and being British?

184

Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/01/2009 17:23:49
I dont disagree with your overall points Wardog.

I have to go right now.

Will talk to you later.

185

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12/01/2009 17:24:33
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Grahamski',

12/01/2009 17:25:42

207. gobble gobble gobble gobble gobble

187

Wardog™,

12/01/2009 17:25:58

207. Grahamski, have you anything to contribute or did you just see the brawl and dive in?

188

Grahamski,

Falkirk 12/01/2009 17:27:24
208

Your question is puzzling for somebody like me who considers myself both Scottish and British.
Here's a question for you: in the unlikely event of a referendum happening any time soon, will you accept your fellow Scots' decision?
Do you accept that it is possible to be a patriotic Scot who supports the UK?
189

Son of one of Stirlings finest,

Weston S Mare 12/01/2009 17:28:00
What we need is Hugh Roscombe to bring this thread back to order.
190

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/01/2009 17:30:52
Grahamski this thread has turned into one of better of late and folk have opened up and put there cards on the table be a good laddie and behave.
191

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12/01/2009 17:30:58
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Tormod,

Auld Reekie 12/01/2009 17:32:57
215 Aye daniel and if my granny was alive she could teach me to suck eggs.

Again Daniel list your sources generally please do as I would like to read them. As I am interested in engineering.
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12/01/2009 17:32:57
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Grahamski,

Falkirk 12/01/2009 17:33:40
218
Don't you find your certainty just a teensy bit scary?
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12/01/2009 17:34:44
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Grahamski,

Falkirk 12/01/2009 17:36:03
223
Hmmm, not recognised by your average narrow-minded nationalist, that's for sure.
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12/01/2009 17:36:16
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12/01/2009 17:37:04
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12/01/2009 17:38:32
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12/01/2009 17:40:10
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Grahamski,

Falkirk 12/01/2009 17:40:25
228
Now, how could you possibly know what any broad-minded person might recognise?
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12/01/2009 17:41:37
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Wardog™,

12/01/2009 17:42:37

214, Why puzzling.

To define yourself as both you must know what it is to be each one?

Surely they can exist separately, they are distinct identities aren't they, albeit both ones which I will concede many scots feel some allegiance to.


"...Here's a question for you: in the unlikely event of a referendum happening any time soon, will you accept your fellow Scots' decision?...."

yes, ofcourse, I'ma democrat first and foremost, that doesn't however preclude from me from continuing to believe that independence is the best option foir Scotland, her people and their future. That future just like the bridge finances cannot be prescribed by the current generation. So long as the idea of Scottish National Identity exists there will be a movement to bring it to full normative and equal expression alongside all other world nations.

i.e. the option for a further referendum will be included in the SNP's and Green's manifesto's in the future even if the referendum is unsuccessful in 2011.



"...Do you accept that it is possible to be a patriotic Scot who supports the UK?...."

Patriotic about what?

TO support the UK is to thwart Scottish Self Expression and Determination, the two cannot exist in my mind. That is not to say that you can feel part of a larger 'british culture' which again is a subset of European culture and humanity. But to support a parliamentary regime which subsumes that expression to a point whereby pthe popular vote in Scotland is not listened to is obviously not patriotic.



.





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12/01/2009 17:43:08
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Grahamski',

12/01/2009 17:43:23

214. Gobble Gobble Gobble Gobble Gobble
206

Son of one of Stirlings finest,

Weston S Mare 12/01/2009 17:46:11
231 The Spook in Leith,
I stand corrected, as a relative newcomer I am still finding out who the big hitters are.You had come to my attention as a wit and raconteur, so accept my apologies I will consider mtself told off.
207

Wardog™,

12/01/2009 17:48:39

233. Smeee

So there is nothing distinctive about being Scottish?

You really need to make such ideas more clear at election time smee and also trumpet which party you support.

People will want to know how much you hate Scotland.


Danielrober 'anglo-scot'

By that you mean someone born in England, probably living there for a long time then moving to Scotland..... yes there ara lot in Scotland.

Not all unionists however, they choose to move here exactly for the things which Grahamski and others fail to comprehend. They see the culture, landscape e and lifestyle as distinctively Scottish and CHOOSE to be part of it rather than carp from the sidelines.





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12/01/2009 17:49:02
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Grahamski',

12/01/2009 17:49:38

246. You want a go?

210

Grahamski,

Falkirk 12/01/2009 17:50:51
240
It's puzzling to me because I do not share your obsession with national identity. I am Scottish and British and am extremely comfortable with being both. I am in the majority of Scots who see it in Scotland's interest to remain as part of the UK.
I absolutely accept that you have every right to believe Scotland should leave the union. That you want this doesn't make you any more 'Scottish' or indeed patriotic. Again your assertion that anybody who supports the UK can't possibly be patriotic is both disappointing but to be expected from the nationalist side.
211

Wardog™,

12/01/2009 17:52:31
243. Debt

Aye aye Spook, it is interesting isn't it. The Tories are spinning a completely different story from Labour about indebtedness.. The idea of a csaving economy is much more appealing than the free market shambles of house pyramid schemes and crazy credit card culture as exemplified by PFI.

Every new born baby is inheriting £17,000 of Brown's Binge Debt.

Brown should be ashamed of the toll he is taking on future generations.


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12/01/2009 17:54:53
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12/01/2009 17:55:31
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Wardog™,

12/01/2009 17:57:24

252. Grahamski

' I do not share your obsession with national identity. I am Scottish and British and am extremely comfortable with being both. ...."

What is does being British mean?

Is an Ulster Unionist's idea of Brithness the same as Jamie from Essex?

Why can't you define what it is that you proclaim to be?


"...your assertion that anybody who supports the UK can't possibly be patriotic is both disappointing but to be expected from the nationalist side...."

What is Scotland within the UK Graham?

Is it a nation?

Is it a Region?

Does it even exist?
215

Grahamski',

12/01/2009 17:58:53

257. Don't mess with me, I gobble gobble gobble

216

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12/01/2009 17:59:59
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12/01/2009 18:00:52
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Wardog™,

12/01/2009 18:01:27

260. Daniel

I could give you the 'some of my best friends' line Daniel, and it would be true.

Can you point to a statistics of what an anglo-scot is and how it is defined?

You have failed to explain what you mean by that term.

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Grahamski',

12/01/2009 18:02:57

263. Gobble Gobble Gobble Gobble splutter.....mmmmm
220

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 12/01/2009 18:03:30
Rufus

You claim to have studied “Business Organisation and Economics”, but yet a few weeks ago you appeared to believe that the UK Govt would receive a total of only £2bn in this financial year from North Sea tax revenues?

Tell me something, with your alleged knowledge of working in a bookies, if I put on a “lucky fifteen” bet of £10 each way at a large horse race meeting, how many horses would I require to bet upon, and if all of those horses were chosen at a SP of evens, although none of them won, all were in the first three.

What would have been my net return?
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12/01/2009 18:04:20
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Wardog™,

12/01/2009 18:13:11

aye me too
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12/01/2009 18:15:10
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12/01/2009 18:36:03
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12/01/2009 18:40:59
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12/01/2009 18:44:30
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12/01/2009 18:52:11
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12/01/2009 19:00:58
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Ewan M,

12/01/2009 19:01:30
Oh no the cyber SNP supporters trying to bully everyone into their paranoid twisted little world.

Grahamski good on you for sticking up to these nasty bitter little people that hang about here trying to suggest there are sticking up for Scotland when all some of there comments do is only embarress Scotland.

It seems to me they are trying drown out the constant barrage of ineptness from their party's governance of Scotland. Imagine sticking a letter in the post a couple of weeks ago for £2billion for a bridge and expect the Treasury to go oh there you go then. Your parties a disgrace and all your squeeling ain't hiding that.

You've still not learned from Glenrothes. Good night.
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Ewan M,

12/01/2009 19:04:00
Spook in the Leith get a life blogging all the time at your age you must have a great social life!!!

P.S Not very wise to put personal information on there of yourself - smarting up.
231

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12/01/2009 19:08:10
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Hugh Roscombe,

12/01/2009 19:19:50
282
Ewan M

Since you were here for such a short time, it was hardly worth coming at all.
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12/01/2009 19:25:04
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Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/01/2009 19:31:51
Apart from wondering why Labour is so insistent on PPI/PPP (vested interest in preferred contractors?), I must also comment on Danielrober's assertion that he is an AngloScot.

If after 3 generations he cannot bring it to himself that he is a Scot/Anglo then perhaps he would be happier living in Angloland and spout pro Scottish sentiments through his nostalgic spectacles.
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12/01/2009 19:36:06
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fair scunnered,

edinburgh 12/01/2009 19:36:16
#140
no20 wasnt demolished,they just renovated it ,and got rid of that womans group,it is now muirhousse housing
they ruined the drive by demolition,filled it with a mixture of bought and rented
do you remember the time when someone threw a sink of martello,went through the roof of whats now jas,s shop
climbed in and took all the cigs and anything they could pass out the roof
labour ruined that area
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Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/01/2009 19:36:31
Smee. You are toiling and really should go to Hairsplitters Anonymous.

Btw. All those Edinburghers. What is a condie?
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Son of one of Stirlings finest,

Weston S Mare 12/01/2009 19:38:21
Mr Hugh Roscombe,
I refer you to my comments at 216.
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12/01/2009 19:42:50
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Hugh Roscombe,

12/01/2009 19:44:14
297

Well shucks! My computer has decided to work only from time to time. I'm also preparing for my return to Bonnie Scotland. Ten days to go.
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12/01/2009 19:47:27
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The Tin Man,

12/01/2009 19:48:04
Anyone interested in building a fantastic new bridge over the Forth estuary?

No, sorry.... I guess not.

Wrong place.

Wrong people.

Wrong time.










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12/01/2009 19:51:04
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Son of one of Stirlings finest,

Weston S Mare 12/01/2009 19:51:29
300 Mr Hugh Roscombe. I am happy to be here in darkest Somerset.. I am of to the pub soon for a few pints of O'Hanlons Port stout, I shall watch the saddo Cider drinkers with disdain whilst they slip into incontenence, what ale can you get where you are?.
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12/01/2009 19:52:22
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It's life but not as we know it,

The oort Clouds 12/01/2009 19:53:01
I am utterly uninterested in the bridge. It should not be built as Edinburgh got more than it's fair share of cash with its stupid trams. I want an Inverness by pass (TLR) and Edinburgh can just live without the stupid bridge.
247

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/01/2009 19:53:49
298, A genuine account. A condie is a seever (however you spell it) is a gully.

ColB. The sound of willow on leather. Ah,yes. Goes along nicely with the sound of wee bells round ankle strapped leather. The Moorish dancing and all that,
248

The Tin Man,

12/01/2009 19:54:24
A 'distinctivly Scottish' attitude. All 'round.

Ho hum. Off to work for the Council.

Erm.

And get pished a lot.

Erm.

And Eat Chips.
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The Tin Man,

12/01/2009 19:55:46
Bridges?

Nah.
250

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12/01/2009 19:56:21
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Gtj,

12/01/2009 19:56:40
Can any direct me to the article on this website that shows the latest poll putting the Tories double figures ahead of Labour.

No, that's a suprise.

252

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12/01/2009 19:57:45
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12/01/2009 19:59:10
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12/01/2009 19:59:53
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The Tin Man,

12/01/2009 20:00:43
A 3 km span? Boooooring.

Henley regata school tie snobbery of much more interest to Hoots Mon dullards.

Hey Ho.
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The Tin Man,

12/01/2009 20:02:26
Engineering triumph?

Nah.

Someone heard that 'the tories' are a few points down in 'a poll'.

Hey Ho.
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Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/01/2009 20:03:24
#296 Jock, its a black rice.
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12/01/2009 20:05:37
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12/01/2009 20:08:26
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Son of one of Stirlings finest,

Weston S Mare 12/01/2009 20:11:35
320
Yes a thinking mans game ,
Do I hit the ball or let it hit me in the nadgers?
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12/01/2009 20:12:00
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12/01/2009 20:15:52
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Son of one of Stirlings finest,

Weston S Mare 12/01/2009 20:16:30
328, Tossing the Caber, untill failing eyesight prevails has been Universally adopted by most post adolescent males the World over.
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The Tin Man,

12/01/2009 20:17:29
323 A G.A.

Unfortunately, you are merely a negative barrel-scraper, uninterested in the engineering triumphs that would have made your fathers proud.

The relative, bickering, short-term fortunes of political parties interests you far more.
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12/01/2009 20:18:01
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12/01/2009 20:19:27
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12/01/2009 20:22:02
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Son of one of Stirlings finest,

Weston S Mare 12/01/2009 20:23:12
Thanks for the banter, of to the pub now, goodnight all.
269

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12/01/2009 20:25:02
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Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 12/01/2009 20:25:25
Cricket is popular in Scotland and we have some good teams and players. Step forward Angus Calder who, as a man of letters and cricketer, certainly ranks with Harold Pinter.

Angus hit plenty good skiers in his innings. Books that are worth buying. Harold's technique with the dramatic pause is part of the game too as it's understood.
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The Tin Man,

12/01/2009 20:29:03
#343 A G.A.

Whatever it is that distinguishes Hoots Mon commentators from normal members of humanity, certainly dosn't include an interest in major Scottish infrastructure projects.
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12/01/2009 20:29:20
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12/01/2009 20:31:30
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PMK,

12/01/2009 20:33:33
How can he be a bridge when he is London Labour? His job is a government-funded position (god knows why) to attack the SNP administration at Holyrood.

This is the single most idiotic headline I have seen in the Hoots-man at month.
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Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/01/2009 20:34:09
danielrober. It matters not what generation you are. You are Anglo/Scot by your own admission. That means you are Anglo before Scot.

Smee, anyone can elaborate on the answer when they know the answer.

Smee, if there is a British crown how come the present day queen uses the English quartering, Scotland has had 8 Edwards and 2 Elizabeths?
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12/01/2009 20:34:58
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Wardog™,

12/01/2009 20:36:11

smee

Your post at 338 really confirms your absolute ignorance for culture, history and people. An astoundingly stupid post as usual.

Your comments simply confirm the worst traits of so called 'unionism', that what your seeking to do is eradicate difference, stifle expression of identity and muffle cultural history........

Do you apply these same rules to other nations or is Scotland a special kind of basket case?







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12/01/2009 20:40:43
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Wardog™,

12/01/2009 20:41:48


Why are Labour forcing the Scottish Govenrment down a PPP route when Banks are lending and the only way companies can turn a profit is by cutting employees' wages and benefits?

Is this Brown's Scottish 'Fiscal Stimulus'?

280

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12/01/2009 20:41:59
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Wardog™,

12/01/2009 20:44:21


Oh dear

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5504673.ece
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Wardog™,

12/01/2009 20:47:29



Why is no-one on these comments pages defending Labour's actions?


283

The Tin Man,

12/01/2009 20:47:46
#355 Wardog

What a tedious group of computer-armed masterbators we are.

Anyone want to debate Scottish Hanoverian history?

Or whether Scotland is a nation, a realm, a kingdom, or a region, as if it matters?
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12/01/2009 20:50:15
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Wardog™,

12/01/2009 20:52:45

365 Tinman

it matters only because the so called 'unionist' on here aren't unionists at all, they are simple anti-snp baters. On every occasion they fail to put forward an alternative to SNP Policy, ideas or indeed defend other parties.

I can only assume that they are embarrassed to make it clear what they stand for other than a 'union' which none of to date has been able to define the benefits of.

So yes I agree, they are a tedious group of computer-armed masturbators




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The Tin Man,

12/01/2009 20:53:06
#366

Perhaps you and me are more important than 'Parliament' and the 'English'. But then again, possibly you are not perceptive.
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12/01/2009 20:54:04
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12/01/2009 20:56:44
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The Tin Man,

12/01/2009 20:57:08
#368 Wardog

Good grief, you just can't leave it alone, can you? Anyway, as Dorotothy, myself, and the whole team, concentrate mostly on daydreams, why shouldn't everyone else....?
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The Tin Man,

12/01/2009 20:59:17
#371 A. G.T.

I love you G.T.
Unfortunately, I feel that it is unrequited.
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Wardog™,

12/01/2009 21:00:18
372. Tinpan

Can't leave what alone?

We're on the political stories comment page of one of scotland's national papers.....

What's you point?
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Faux Cul,

12/01/2009 21:00:24
#362
A genuine account,
12/01/2009 20:41:59

"You still didn't explain how you managed to google to those documents wot you put up earlier?

Wot did you type into the google box?


Is there such a thing as a defrocked Sheriff?

Coming home on the 2nd Feb, so I can hoist a few bevvies in Glasgow and Freuchie (cricket connection?), for two weeks.
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12/01/2009 21:02:59
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Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/01/2009 21:03:03
The first king of Britain was James V1, Smee.

The English have never had any intention of an integrated Britain under anyone's terms apart from their own.

Bank of Britain? Eh?

Get real and think about Prussia.
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The Tin Man,

12/01/2009 21:03:25
#376 Faux

Do you think that a bridge design should be based on burning talent, or dull coaching ability?

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The Tin Man,

12/01/2009 21:06:06
Bye all.

This is even more boring than TV.
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Faux Cul,

12/01/2009 21:06:16
#379
The Tin Man,
12/01/2009 21:03:25

I think a bridge should be based on two (at least supports) preferably on either side on the chasm.
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12/01/2009 21:08:12
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Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/01/2009 21:12:44
Smee, further to 378 and comparisons to Prussia.

British language?

German federalisation of Europe. England being broken up into regions - a la Prussia.

You have to laugh.
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Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 12/01/2009 21:13:05
Scotland is a Nation as defined by Deorsa Iain Deorsa as far as these things can be clear and jump out the page for you.

The man was a poet and linguist of many talents.
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brownlie,

12/01/2009 21:14:25
288 sm753

"This is a very boring question" - you are definitely the most appropriate person to answer it.

348 sm 753

"You need serious help" - is there such a thing as frivolous or light-hearted help?
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Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/01/2009 21:17:44
No, ColB@383, my heart does not swell at the thought.

I care not one whit for royalty. I do note that they observe Englishness as there no such thing as Britishness.

There could have been though.
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brownlie,

12/01/2009 21:24:30
386 The Spook in Leith

Who are you? it seems everyone know but me!!
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Faux Cul,

12/01/2009 21:24:42
#388
Col. Blimp­IV*,
12/01/2009 21:13:19

Try Hamish VII?

Too much spaghetti monsters tonight?

Bisous
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Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/01/2009 21:26:08
ColB, 391.

Can't understand the unionists. Reckon they are the blind brainwashed.
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Faux Cul,

12/01/2009 21:26:54
What is Yok Finney on.

Is it prescription, over the counter or palmed under the table?

Has anyone checked the sheep nearby?
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Nikostratos,,

12/01/2009 21:31:57
Just think the funding of the new Forth bridge will be guaranteed by Scottish Secretary Jim Murphy .And all Alex Salmond has to do is kneel before Gordon Brown and accept his overlordship
308

Hugh Roscombe,

12/01/2009 21:33:26
Son of one of Stirlings finest

In the off chance you read this and you're not peeshed, I have access to any beers available in the UK.
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Hugh Roscombe,

12/01/2009 21:33:47
400?
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brownlie,

12/01/2009 21:34:15
397 Nikos

No sooner said than done!! Why does Gordon not perform Moses's miracle with the Red Sea?
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Hugh Roscombe,

12/01/2009 21:34:27
My my. 300 AND 400 in one day.
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Hugh Roscombe,

12/01/2009 21:35:38
Jock

Tell Derek I'll see him in the Stables in a couple of weeks. His round!
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brownlie,

12/01/2009 21:36:02
398 Spook in Sunshine

Have you got a Scottish granny by any chance? I hear Wayne Rooney's got a few English ones.
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Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 12/01/2009 21:36:07
Sense in the head and fire in the belly is what you need.

It's proscribed for everyone.
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Hugh Roscombe,

12/01/2009 21:36:53
Nikos

You are wasting a good thread! Begone.
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Nikostratos,,

12/01/2009 21:38:24
#397

Oh and kiss his English A#se
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The Tin Man,

12/01/2009 21:38:55
OK Celebrity Dwarf Big Brother is even more boring than Hamish 7, of limited spaghetti fame.

The Scottish Government wants to be able to spread payments for the bridge over 20 years, rather than having to pay for the bridge in the three or four years it is built.

This plan has been rejected by the UK Treasury, leaving the Scottish Goverenment with little choice but to take money from other projects to pay for the new Forth crossing.


318

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/01/2009 21:38:58
Brownlie,401. The Red Sea is now a blue tide. Besides any reference to Broon and broken waters is taboo in the media.
319

The Tin Man,

12/01/2009 21:39:58
What would have Hamish 7 have done?
320

Nikostratos,,

12/01/2009 21:40:20
The Spook in Leiths identity is easy to find out just look for the one with two left feet
321

brownlie,

12/01/2009 21:41:11
409 Nikostratos

Nikos, old chum, are you so lonely you've started posting to yourself?
322

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/01/2009 21:44:07
404(had a Peugeot 404), Hugh Roscombe.

You who I think you are? Third letter of surname please. Then I will know who to pass the greeting from.
323

brownlie,

12/01/2009 21:44:32
413 Nikos

Is the spook from Norfolk? talking of Norfolk two friends of mind Billy Goode and Jack Norfolk are a comedy duo who call themselves "Useless" - they were previously known as "Norfolk and Goode"!
324

Hugh Roscombe,

12/01/2009 21:45:04
Mega delay here. I'm BitTorrenting Primal Fear and it's slowing down the computer. Now I've to convert from MPEG to DVD. Probably cheaper and quicker to buy the effing thing.
325

Hugh Roscombe,

12/01/2009 21:46:18
417

Meths!

... or rather - "W"
326

Hugh Roscombe,

12/01/2009 21:47:02
Peeeeshed again. (Me bad).
327

brownlie,

12/01/2009 21:48:23
414 Spook

That's uncanny! I met her in the Dundee Palais one night! Thanks, pal!
328

Faux Cul,

12/01/2009 21:49:25
#412
The Tin Man,
12/01/2009 21:39:58

whooooooshhhhhhh!
329

Nikostratos,,

12/01/2009 21:54:53
Iain gray more popular than Alex salmond a recent opinion poll found..
gnight..
330

brownlie,

12/01/2009 21:55:41
426 The Spook in Sunshine

Co-incidence or not, I think the fag in the mouth is a dead give-away, if you know what I mean!!
331

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 12/01/2009 21:57:10
-- you sound like someone i know who lives in Spain

That'd be Jack McConnel.
332

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/01/2009 21:59:14
420. Hugh Roscombe. Will pass that on. Hope to meet you.

Round table in the Stables with Derek. That's about £25 a round - he demands plenty per hour. Best of luck with that.

Spook, 422. Not in the slightest. Think what you like.

Youth is entitled to its opinion. Go on yersel, laddie.
333

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/01/2009 22:04:19
Surely there is a way that the SNP Government can side-step the "rules". There must be a way of borrowing money without asking permission from London.
334

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/01/2009 22:05:44
Spook, 432.

See you arrogant youth. So I've got to be second. Suppose you consider yourself to be number1.

(Smiley)

335

brownlie,

12/01/2009 22:09:06
431 Spook

The head-line reminds me of the time Big Jackie did her karoake version of Simon and Garfunkel's greatest hit!
336

Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/01/2009 22:09:13
419 Hugh Roscombe,12/01/2009 21:45:04
Mega delay here. I'm BitTorrenting Primal Fear and it's slowing down the computer.
==============================================

More likely Perry Como.
337

Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/01/2009 22:15:38
437 The Spook in Leith,12/01/2009 22:09:35
#433

Could they not borrow money from the middle east ?
==================================================
For £2 billion we could just fill the Firth of Forth in and build a normal road over it along with a couple of nuclear power stations.
338

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 12/01/2009 22:16:34
Joining the € would have some checks and balances in it v. the sinking £ and $. But we haven't given the Government the power to do this. Tories know that the € is the only hope of salvaging the English economy so they're waiting for Brown to do it after his international stunting. Because it's not a popular tabloid move.
339

Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/01/2009 22:17:53
Hamas have just announced they are close to victory (Sky News).

If that is close to victory, then Nicola Sturgeon is close to being a super model.
340

brownlie,

12/01/2009 22:19:01
439 The Spook

Your typing there reminds me of the old adage claiming that one million monkeys with one million PCs could produce a Shakespeare play. I never believed it until Rufus started posting!
341

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/01/2009 22:19:11
Spook. Nah. Smee is first bore. Rufus is just the jester (a bad one at that).

Then there is Grahamski, Fifi......etc
342

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/01/2009 22:22:10
12 bore. Unionist tactics. Get 12 bores online at the same time
343

Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/01/2009 22:23:31
Not long till the Sandi Thom Homecoming Tour.

I wonder how the ticket sales are going.
344

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/01/2009 22:34:19
Rufus, you sure know how to keep a conversation going. Do they teach you that at Millbank?
345

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/01/2009 22:35:50
Bridge. Finance. Discuss.

Nightie, night.

346

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 12/01/2009 22:47:22
Spook. Smee is sm753. Think about it from numbers and letters and the fact that he sounds like a minion of Captain Hook.
347

Son of one of Stirlings finest,

Weston S Mare 12/01/2009 23:09:15
399# Mr Hugh Roscombe, I passed a reasonably pleasant evening in the local hostelry and did not get pished. However the only dampener was when the ubiquituos Weegie asked me for a tenner, stating that he had no means of sustenance. It did not escape my attention that he had a full pint of Kronenburg. when his request was denied he soon found an inebriated Welshman who coughed up, perhaps out of Celtic brotherhood, was this the Union dividend.
348

Kenny's Conscience,

Looking For A Bridging Loan 12/01/2009 23:12:31
Alex Salmond beware, Auld Gordie fae Fife managed to make everybody think you could get whatever you wanted on tick.
349

Rufus-T-Firefly,

12/01/2009 23:23:19
455 Son of one of Stirlings finest I bet he was a Celtic Supporter.
350

,

12/01/2009 23:42:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
351

Wardog™,

13/01/2009 00:02:04
326. Smee wrong again

"...Arbroath say anything about the "people";...."

Declaration of Arbroath

"...The deeds of cruelty, massacre, violence, pillage, arson, imprisoning prelates, burning down monasteries, robbing and killing monks and nuns, and yet other outrages without number which he committed against our PEOPLE, sparing neither age nor sex, religion nor rank, no one could describe nor fully imagine unless he had seen them with his own eyes...."

352

,

13/01/2009 07:30:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
353

,

13/01/2009 15:18:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:

 

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