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London seeks end to Scots nuclear veto

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Published Date: 11 November 2008
THE UK government is searching for a way to end Scotland's effective veto over the building of nuclear power stations north of the Border. It has asked the Calman Commission – set up to review devolution – to solve the "problem" of Holyrood using devolved powers, such as over planning, to block its energy plans.
Westminster insiders claim the anti-nuclear SNP has sought to use all measures at its disposal to "frustrate" any plans to build nuclear power stations in Scotland. There is also concern from the Ministry of Defence over the way the Scottish Government has orchestrated opposition to nuclear weapons on Scottish soil.

The intervention on nuclear power, though couched in cautious language, might spark renewed battles between Westminster and Holyrood over the constitution – and it lands Sir Kenneth Calman and his commission with a political hot potato.

Westminster ministers are said to be "relaxed" about Scotland receiving its medium-term energy needs from England and think several changes of administration are likely at Holyrood before it will be asked to address any plans for a new nuclear power station in Scotland.

However, there remain concerns about the SNP's willingness to use devolved laws to block Westminster's ambitions.

The Calman Commission was set up with the support of the Conservatives, Labour and Liberal Democrats – a cross-party grouping with a majority in Holyrood.

Should the recommendations to curb the veto powers be adopted by Calman and come before the Scottish Parliament, that cross-party group could force them through in the face of SNP opposition.

The Nationalists' anti-nuclear stance has extended to attacking plans to renew the Trident warheads on the Clyde by suggesting, for example, using powers to impose traffic-calming measures that would make it difficult for large convoys to get in and out of Faslane submarine base.

In its submission to the Calman Commission, the UK government says the first nine years of devolving power from Westminster to Holyrood is "a success, by any measure". But there are areas "where the inevitable overlap between devolved and reserved matters has the potential to cause difficulty". These include Holyrood's planning powers and the ability of the Scottish Government to make rulings under the Electricity Acts – namely, in relation to nuclear power.

The Scotland Office submission to Calman states: "It was clearly not the intention of Parliament in passing the Scotland Act that the use, or threatened use, of devolved powers should undermine the delivery of reserved policies."

The Scotsman has been told that south-east England remains the most likely location for any new UK power stations, as it is more energy-efficient to build them close to centres of population. Dungeness in Kent, where there is already one reactor and a second being decommissioned, is considered a favourite site.

The 126-page submission from the UK government aims to outline how devolution has worked in practice. An interim report from the commission is due before Christmas, with the full findings due next autumn. Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, will then decide which, if any, recommendations to accept. Some changes may require Westminster to pass amendments to the Scotland Act.

Although Labour has made it clear it has no wish to claw back planning powers to Westminster, it faces criticism for claiming that devolution is a success, while making no proposals for a further transfer of powers from London to Edinburgh.

One government source said of the submission: "It's not saying this is what we are going to do, or hinting at taking powers back or devolving further powers. It's saying this is how devolution works in practice. But it does say there are one or two things which are, by the nature of devolution and reserved powers… where things can come into conflict."

Another insider said: "They (Westminster] think the Scottish Government is using planning powers to frustrate the UK government's energy policy. They think it is bad for business, which wants security of supply. Our view points out this is a 'pinchpoint'. It may or may not be resolvable. It may be one in which there is a trade-off. Calman is being asked to look at it. But we are Unionists and we are quite relaxed about the fact that Scotland will rely on England for energy."

The SNP accused Labour at Westminster of "reverting to type" by rejecting any increase of powers to Holyrood. Alasdair Allan, MSP, said: "There is a veiled threat to claw powers back to Westminster – potentially paving the way for unnecessary and unwanted new nuclear power stations being imposed on Scotland."

The submission outlines the views of Westminster government departments on the experience of devolution. Virtually all found it to be a workable arrangement – but highlighted concerns about transferring further powers to Holyrood.

The Scottish Parliament has set up a working group to see if it can use devolved powers to block the renewal of the Trident. But the MoD's submission made clear that it would not allow competing interests to undermine national security.

The Home Office warned that giving Scotland more powers would increase the risk of migrants moving illegally from Scotland to other parts of the UK. It also rejected calls for devolution of firearms legislation, saying this would affect the 200,000 people who travelled to Scotland for game shooting every year.

A spokesman for Alex Salmond, the First Minister, said: "The Labour government are offering nothing… and are rendering the whole Calman exercise farcical."

Tavish Scott, the Scottish Liberal Democrat leader, said: "It is barely conceivable that, having lost the 2007 general election in Scotland on a platform of no change, Labour has decided that no change is again its position."

However, last night, Jim Murphy, the Scottish Secretary, told The Scotsman: "The British government has no intention whatsoever of taking planning policy from the Scottish government.

"The SNP government is the only major organisation refusing to participate in the Calman Commission, but it is not too late to start now.

Why Sir Kenneth is left playing piggy in the middle as Salmond and Brown play power games

WHAT matters more: the right of one local community to protest about an unwanted development in their neighbourhood, or the needs of hundreds more to heat their homes?

That is one dilemma at the heart of the debate about whether the UK government should have the right to allow nuclear power stations to be built in Scotland. The SNP minority administration at Holyrood is dead set against it, and can probably count on the support of the Liberal Democrats and Greens.

The SNP's objections matter because, under devolution, it has the power to veto any planning application. It also, under the rights afforded to Scottish Government ministers under the Electricity Act, has a big say in new power stations.

The SNP's objections go beyond the old-guard "no to nuclear" protests. It sees Scotland as a world leader in wind and hydro power, something a move to nuclear would undermine. It also has well-founded concerns about the cost and risk of disposing of spent nuclear fuel.

This is hugely frustrating to Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, who is keen to build more nuclear power stations. The south-east is the most likely location, because of the higher population and the presence of Dungeness in Kent (the preference is to site new power stations in locations familiar with their presence).

Mr Brown has travelled twice to the Middle East this year to ask its wealthy nations to invest, not just in new nuclear stations but in UK renewable energy, such as wind and wave power. The last thing he wants is an SNP government using planning powers to frustrate his efforts to boost the country's energy supply.

This is the dilemma which Sir Kenneth Calman's commission reviewing Scottish devolution has been asked to fix. It is being asked to do Gordon Brown's dirty work for him.

Instead of spelling out a diktat that Scotland should take its share of any new power stations, Mr Brown's government has raised concerns over the quibbles between London and Edinburgh on matters such as nuclear power – and invited Sir Kenneth to suggest a solution.

Therefore, if Sir Kenneth fails to recommend something he supports, the report can be ignored. But if Sir Kenneth suggests that Holyrood has to bow to Westminster's wishes on concerns such as energy, then the report will become a stick to beat the Nats with.

The only question that remains is timing. Sir Kenneth's report is due in a year. A general election must be called by June 2010 – by which time Labour, and Mr Brown, could well be on the way out.

But in a similar vein, it is just as possible that the 2011 Scottish Parliament elections will return a government more in favour of nuclear power. As a Scottish Labour spokesman confirmed yesterday: "Labour believe in a mixed energy policy and would not rule out any low-carbon source of energy."

WHERE WESTMINSTER STANDS ON OTHER ISSUES

FIREARMS

FIREARMS legislation will continue to be a reserved power for Westminster, despite calls in Scotland for a ban on air guns.

The Home Office said: "Any significant differences in legislation could create licensing anomalies which might have to be addressed by a temporary licensing process. It could also result in the introduction of different forms and certificates and we would need to work out the exchange of information between Scottish forces and our own national firearms licensing management system. The impact on the police's workload could be considerable given that some 200,000 people from the UK are estimated to make at least one visit to Scotland each year for game shooting."

IMMIGRATION

THE Home Office has dismissed calls for separate immigration policies north and south of the Border.

Its submission said: "There is a risk variations in treatment for migrants in Scotland will lead to calls for further variations, up to full devolution of immigration and asylum matters, and for variations in other parts of the UK.

"There are inevitably tensions inherent in the settlement, where reserved matters (such as asylum and immigration] rub up against devolved matters, including access to services and policing. While overall current arrangements are working well, these tensions have been more marked since the change of administration, and we expect them to increase."

ACCOUNTABILITY

THE government's submission to the Calman Commission on Scottish devolution says Westminster is "keen" to see how the financial accountability of Holyrood can be improved.

However, it gives no details as to how this can be achieved.

A submission from the Scotland Office said: "The devolved funding arrangements provide the Scottish Parliament with not only a rising budget but also continuity and a stable, transparent and predictable way of funding public services in Scotland.

"The government is keen to consider with the commission, in accordance with its terms of reference, how the financial accountability of the parliament may be improved."

LOCAL INCOME TAX

ANY move towards a local income tax would have severe financial consequences for Scotland.

The Department for Work and Pensions has said it will not pay council tax benefit (CTB) to the Scottish Government if it were to implement the controversial policy.

In its submission, it said: "If proposed changes in Scotland go ahead, this is one area of social security policy where there could cease to be national coverage. Without council tax, there is no case in logic, and no statutory basis, for paying CTB or CTB subsidy. Government subsidy for a different system to council tax would be hard to justify, as a system that is based on ability to pay has no need for a benefit to support it."

MALAWI

FUTURE aid programmes in Malawi are under review, according to a submission from the Department for International Development. Since 2005, Scotland has been actively involved in a programme with sub-Saharan Africa, in particular Malawi.

The DfID says it has not seen "any formal evaluation of the policy and programme". It adds: "We understand work is under way to review a selection of the Malawi projects. Given the small scale of the overall contribution for Malawi (£3 million from the devolved budget in 2007-8 compares with £70 million budgeted from the UK government), the impact in Malawi at national level is likely to be limited and sustainability may be difficult to attain."


Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 11 November 2008 1:34 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Nuclear energy
 
1

Rufus T. Firefly,

11/11/2008 00:02:26
Salmond won't be happy until we end up like South Africa where power cuts are the norm due to a lack of generating capacity."

We cant build new capacity overnight.

The big threat to Scotland now is the Scottish Executive that will refuse to allow planning for updating our present stations.

This could lead to us being held to ransom in the future from foreign-owned English Generating Plants producing nuclear-powered electricity and selling it to Scottish Consumers at whatever price they want.
2

subrosa,

11/11/2008 00:08:47
# 1 'This could lead to us being held to ransom in the future from foreign-owned English Generating Plants producing nuclear-powered electricity and selling it to Scottish Consumers at whatever price they want.'

Isn't this what happens right now? I pay more for my gas and electricity (for the same useage) as friends in east Anglia. The answer from my supplier was 'so what?'
3

Royster,

11/11/2008 00:10:30
Simple. Devolution isn't working. Close Holyrood.
4

Conan the Librarian™,

11/11/2008 00:13:52
Scotland exports power Rufus.

We do not need to build capacity "overnight".

How do you update a nuclear power plant Rufus?

Sweep the old radioactivity under a new carpet?
5

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 11/11/2008 00:14:45
LOL - labour just don't get it do they - overwhelming bi-partisan rejection of nuclear power in Scotland.

Their funeral
6

Conan the Librarian™,

11/11/2008 00:16:00
3
Simple.Royster isn't thinking.Close Royster.
7

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 11/11/2008 00:16:41
"But we are Unionists and we are quite relaxed about the fact that Scotland will rely on England for energy."

What complete fools they must take us for, obviously working off the 'the bigger the lie' theory
8

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 11/11/2008 00:17:10
"But we are Unionists and we are quite relaxed about the fact that Scotland will rely on England for energy."

What complete fools they must take us for, obviously working off the 'the bigger the lie' theory
9

,

11/11/2008 00:19:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
10

eamon,

11/11/2008 00:22:41
I have nothing against nuclear energy, but would prefer to increase hydro, wind, wave, tidal and sea current usage first. I would also imagine the wasted energy being burnt off from the flare stacks in Grangemouth could be better utilised, like in Mongstad Norway.

#3 royster
totally agree, it isnt working. close westminster, thats where the problem is.
11

Conan the Librarian™,

11/11/2008 00:29:14
10
It is just as well you have nothing against nuclear energy.

It would turn red, blister and fall off.

If you did.

Oh, and you would die.
12

Castaway™ ,

11/11/2008 00:30:20
#4.Conan the Librarian™:
You are correct Scotland exports power this is a sample:-
Scotland-England National Grid-System Transfers
08 Sep 2008 811MW 02:256:00
24 Sep 2008 1828MW 07:58:00
16 Oct 2008 1582MW 06:14:00
11 Nov 2008 1152MW 00:31:00
13

Bring it Off,

UK 11/11/2008 00:31:27
VERY SIMPLE ANSWER PUT NUCLEAR POWER STATIONS AND WEAPONS AND WASTE IN CENTRAL LONDON OR THE HOME COUNTIES OLD BOY DONT YOU KNOW IT IS PERFECTLY SAFE INNIT!
14

Bachman-Turner Overdrive,

11/11/2008 00:35:59
Salmond is only ever happy when he's got his hip plask out and a copy of The Michilen Good Food Guide Book in hand.

The guy is so out of touch with reality that I am surprised even the crofters are taken in by him.

But this case is a shocker. SNP "dirty trick" tactics which could result in pensioners having no heating for years to come.

Salmond- disgrace.
15

Forward not Back,

11/11/2008 00:36:31
This shows up how much Labour wanted Holyrood to act like a "parish council".

If planning is a devolved matter, then it is up to the Scottish Parliament to determine planning policy and no one else.
16

eamon,

11/11/2008 00:37:59
13
Good point. What I mean is we should exhaust all other avenues first, and then, if there is still a shortfall, we could look into how best to make this up. If this included nuclear power, we would be foolish to not consider it. Totally agree that nuclear weapons should never be on Scottish soil. The only country in our history to have invaded us is telling us we need them for our protection? Who from? them?
17

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 11/11/2008 00:38:24
"UK government says the first nine years of devolving power from Westminster to Holyrood is "a success, by any measure"."

Yes, for London.

Devolution kept the Scots happy, put the Scot Nats in their place, secured yet another 10 years of Scottish Oil and Gas revenues for London and of course, was made very easy to control because of a succession of puppet Unionists running Holyrood to make sure the Unionist boat was never rocked.

Sadly no more.

Ah well, if we can't control the current 'rulers' of Scotland we must limit their powers. No doubt the new chap Jim will smooth matters over in that direction.

The Scots will just roll over as they always do just like they are doing with HBOS.

Ah! PM, about HBOS.....slight problem or two...or three..possibly even four, in that direction.....rolling over not going as planned....

Blo*dy Nats...
18

john z,

edinburgh 11/11/2008 00:43:07
So, let me get this right, the majority of Scots don't want new nuclear plants in Scotland, the majority across parties in the democratically elected Scottish Parliament don't want new nuclear plants in Scotland. So, Gordon (traitor) Brown decides to just ignore democracy and remove the authority of the Scottish parliament.

As for the lib dems - are you happy you jumped into bed with Labour and the corrupt Calman charade??? Look where it's got you.

For three hundred years the english government have just ignored the views of Scottish people, and now they are at it again.

Scotland has its own agenda, pursuing a global lead in renewables.

With this outdated colonialist english union Scotland again loses out. Scotland can no longer afford the luxury of this english union. In the union we will lose control over energy, and our natural resources. In the union, we lose ALL our oil and gas to england - and we don't even get paid for it. If we stay in this english union, Scotland and the Scottish people will lose out for good.

Please remind me, the benefits of this unbalanced and undemocratic union whereby Scotland is controlled by England, and we give all our oil and gas to them for free.

Enough is enough. Day by day I get angrier at Brown and his english clowns sh*fting Scotland, helped along by the biased unionist 'scottish' media.

Gordon Brown, the dirtiest traitor of Scotland.
19

Conan the Librarian™,

11/11/2008 00:48:44
17
Why would he have a hip plask?

Do you mean Michelin?

And what alternate reality language do you speak?

Pensioners having no heating?

For years to come indeed.

Of all the unionist dribble...no...it's not even dribble; the fleck of foam on Lord George the Socialist as he considers his next £50 dram, the twirl in the mirror as Mandy swishes his ermine robe...
20

Bachman-Turner Overdrive,

11/11/2008 00:51:28
#22

That's how Salmond says it after a wee drink from his "best friend"


21

john z,

edinburgh 11/11/2008 00:53:23
Scotland currently produces more power than it needs. It actually 'exports' power to the grid for English use. There is no need for nuclear power plants in Scotland, and while we are at it, Scotland has absolutely no need for nuclear submarines - so it is time they were booted out of the clyde.

With the end of the cold war, I would advocate the Scottish Government setting up a commission to re-examine the needs for nuclear submarines and warheads to be on the clyde, and tie that in with the question of nuclear power. Scotland can no longer afford to just sit back and waste money on such unnecessary expenditure on Nuclear submarines.

I firmly believe that most Scots cannot see a reason to pay billions from their taxes to run nuclear submarines. Maybe england needs them, but Scotland most certainly does not.

I really see no need for nuclear warheads and submarines in Scotland. It's about time they were moved down to London, where they belong.
22

Conan the Librarian™,

11/11/2008 00:53:42
23
Gordon?!
23

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 11/11/2008 00:54:16
The vast majority of people in Scotland are against the construction of Nuclear Plants. This could be the one issue that brings people out on to the streets and convinces the large group of undecided voters that the Union is well past its sell by date.

I just hope Browns is stupid enough to try and ram this down peoples throats. He may well provoke a Scottish Intifada followed shortly thereafter by independence.
24

john z,

edinburgh 11/11/2008 01:03:02
Number 26

You could well be correct. Most scots see no need for nuclear power, when Scotland is so rich in Gas, oil, wind, tidal and hydro power. Why build more unnecessary nuclear power stations when Scotland doesn't need them. If England has a power deficit, build the blasted things in england.

This will likely help the push for Scottish independence from this outdated, expensive and undemocratic english union.
25

karinxxx,

11/11/2008 01:04:11
what brown is trying to do is to close down the scottish parliament.
26

Sanny,

Glasgow or Algarve 11/11/2008 01:05:27
Scotland has no need for nuclear power! We are already a power exporter and further when developed the Pentland Firth has the potential to supply twice the current total electrical demand for the whole of the UK.

When all the oil is finally exhausted Scotland will still be an energy exporting nation. A major reason why Westminister is reluctant to let go!

Now remind me – what is Gordon Brown’s brothers job?

Who has an answer on the disposal of nuclear waste that has a half life measured in tens of thousands of years? In considering the cost of new nuclear facilities is the cost of storing the waste included in the total? If not – why not?
27

Conan the Librarian™,

11/11/2008 01:06:37
Agree john z, and kampung.
28

livilion,

livingston 11/11/2008 01:08:58
Hauddon, who's wanting to build new nuke power stations when the bill just to clean up the first generation is now past the £73bn mark, and no mention of how much for keeping that radioactive rubbish out of the environment and out of the hands of baddies for the next few centuries or so?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7421879.stm
29

karinxxx,

11/11/2008 01:09:48
I heard that brown wants to site the nest nucleur power station in scotland near glenrothes because they like him so much
30

,

11/11/2008 01:09:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
31

john z,

edinburgh 11/11/2008 01:10:20
On another point. Scots pensioners would find it much easier to heat their homes if we stopped giving all Scotland's oil and gas to england for nothing. Scotland is the only oil producing country in the world that happily gives it's oil and gas to another country for free. It really is quite bizarre.

No doubt this is yet another benefit of the english union.

Under the english union, scotland loses out.
32

Sanny,

Glasgow or Algarve 11/11/2008 01:10:37
28 karinxxx,
I think that is a reasonable assumption karin.
What does Brown want. Is he trying to push the Scots to the point they take to the streets or even follow the Irish into violence to obtain our birthright. Let us hope that wiser councils replace this incompetent government.
33

Sanny,

Glasgow or Algarve 11/11/2008 01:14:43

32 livilion,livingston
Correction we will need to safely store the Nuclear waste for millennium not centuries. Look up the half life of plutonium.
34

Conan the Librarian™,

11/11/2008 01:15:32
31
Good Morning Spook.

I bet AM2 doesn't let you post on his website.
35

john z,

edinburgh 11/11/2008 01:17:41
Number 36, I agree.

If the democratic will of the people of Scotland is usurped by traitor Brown, what other options do the people have? It could indeed lead to dangerous times - a thing which nobody would choose to see.

I would never vote tory, but regarding Scotland, David Cameron seems to have realised the political climate here has changed. He has realised you cannot forcibly 'wind the devolution clock back'.

Sadly Traitor Brown seem unable to grasp reality. But that's not really news, is it.
36

PockSuppet,

11/11/2008 01:20:23
So, this is where the shiny happy people hang oot?

SKY is FKT
37

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 01:21:22
"But we are Unionists and we are quite relaxed about the fact that Scotland will rely on England for energy."

The utter gall - Scotland is a net exporter of electricity - to England - and aye - as nationalists - we're quite relaxed about it. On yer bike ya tube.
38

Bachman-Turner Overdrive,

11/11/2008 01:22:29
What is Salmond's "project of the day".

Getting more polar bears in the Highlands?

I'm sure it will be a good one.....
39

Conan the Librarian™,

11/11/2008 01:23:23
39
John. Traitor is a strong word.

I used to vote for the Labour dinosaur.

But the brain then was John Smith, no the wee walnut in the hinderse...now called Gordon.
40

Castaway™ ,

11/11/2008 01:24:44
Building a new nuclear power station in Scotland would mean either up grading/extending the life of our existing coal fired PS's or building something similiar to compensate for the time when any nuclear PS is off load because the present Scottish nuclear power stations are not flexiable enough, they cannot follow the fluctuations in demand,they have to be base load ie either take all the output or none.

This is were our fossil fuel power stations and to a lesser extent our hydro power stations are very useful ie flexibility they continually follow the grid demand by varying there output as grid demand fluctuates up and down which a nuclear PS can't.

Scotland has from all sources about 11,000MW of electricity generation capacity.
Scotland needs between 2,500MW-5,500MW depending on the demand which varies on a hourly/daily/seasonal basis.
41

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 01:25:55
Broon is flying balloons to see how far he can push us. His problem is he believes his own press. Don't underestimate him though - he is a dangerous man - as a heap of dead Iraqis will testify.
42

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 01:27:19
Bachman-Turner Overdrive

Saw them play a couple of times - they were keech.
43

Bachman-Turner Overdrive,

11/11/2008 01:29:19
#46

Let me summarise.

You saw them once and thought they were terrible...

So the next thing you do is to go and see them again....

I see.

BTO
44

PockSuppet,

I am a struggling scientist 11/11/2008 01:30:25
The only future is Nuclear, supplemented by renewables.


Support Fission Research. It will happen.
45

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 01:30:56
47 - Ah wiz there fur the burds coz the muzak was c r a p.
46

Conan the Librarian™,

11/11/2008 01:31:14
40
Pock, if you want to be shiny, wash.

But happy is a state of mind.
47

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 01:32:51
Nuclear is a discredited technology. Won't happen here baby - not in Chicago.
48

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 01:34:18
50Conan the Librarian™, 11/11/2008 01:31:14

'happy is a state of mind.'

I would have said it was a choice.
49

PockSuppet,

11/11/2008 01:36:39
Spook is a "sleeper" if yer naws wit urs means.
50

Conan the Librarian™,

11/11/2008 01:36:58
52
The choice you make, An Beal Bacht.

Pile it on.
51

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 01:37:23
"London seeks end to Scots nuclear veto"

LONDON SEEKS TO END SCOTS VETO!!!

Aye - Scotland is to be run from London. London - that's in England is it no?
52

PockSuppet,

11/11/2008 01:38:49
BOOM!!!
53

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 01:39:33
ENGLAND SEEKS TO PUT AN END TO SCOTS DECIDING HOW TO RUN THEIR NATION.
54

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 01:40:52
56 - PockSuppet, 11/11/2008 01:38:49

"BOOM!!!"

I knew her well - quite the lassie.
55

,

11/11/2008 01:41:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
56

PockSuppet,

11/11/2008 01:41:10
Quite right 2.

We're all FKD by Mandy.
57

Bachman-Turner Overdrive,

11/11/2008 01:42:25
Salmond says that he's got big plans for the Dunblane Hydro.
58

Conan the Librarian™,

11/11/2008 01:43:48
53
Pock, for sock's sake; Go for a pint.

Talk to people. You may find Highland Mighty there, but...that's life.
59

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 01:44:02
Whatever happened to the "Scottish" Labour Party? Have they nothing to say? Where's Gray - The Leader of the Labour Faction Within the Scottish Parliament? That is his title isn't it?
60

PockSuppet,

11/11/2008 01:44:31
The Spook has big plans for her boyfriend.
61

,

11/11/2008 01:44:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
62

Satire above all,

11/11/2008 01:46:14
No nulcear power stations on our precious Scottish oil and no nulear weapons. On the subject of nuclear weapons...there are many in Scotland...possibly the majority who do not want England stock piling her nuclear arsenal here. The Labour Party oppose this view and their argument is usually that it would cost about 8000 jobs (quite an exagerated number)to the nuclear arsenal. Yet, this is the same Labour Party who are so enthusiastically encouraging the takeover over HBOS with a potential loss of 20,000 jobs - how many in SCotland we do not yet know. ( probably the reason why Lloyds are so silent on this is because it will amount to a huge number in Scotland alone).

I find it staggering that there are still Scots out there who are still willing to support a Labour party who show time and time again, as they have in the past, that they have nothing but ill will towards this land. They are the ENEMY of this country and we need to wake up to this fact very soon.


63

Conan the Librarian™,

11/11/2008 01:53:40
64
Sweet baby jeebus, pock.

Do you have some sort of cyber tourettes syndrome?

64

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 01:54:58
66 - Satire above all, 11/11/2008 01:46:1

I tend to avoid emotional responses to these kinds of provocations. In this case, however, this is a rational and logical statement - Labour have become the ENEMY of Scotland.
65

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 01:58:50
What happened to BTO? Slunk off in a huff?
66

PockSuppet,

11/11/2008 02:04:16
Evening, Spook!
67

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 02:04:18
71 - McPravda blog, 11/11/2008 02:01:14

I always knew Labour were a party of Zombies. Dead man voting - anyone?
68

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 02:05:23
70 - PockSuppet, 11/11/2008 02:04:16

You cruisin for some action? Try the Arches.
69

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 02:06:53
Scotland produces far more electricity than it consumes. Around 20% of the electricity generated in Scotland is exported to the rest of the UK.
70

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 02:08:01
A new generation of nuclear power plants in the UK would be reliant on imported uranium. World reserves of uranium are finite - and as countries such as China build more nuclear power stations, global demand for uranium is growing. Studies estimate that world supplies of uranium may last another 80 years. There is a long lead time for developing new uranium resources, and supplies could become far more reliant on countries like Kazakhstan and Russia, rather than long-standing suppliers such as Australia and Canada [4]. This should raise concerns about the potential long-term vulnerability of uranium supplies to political instability.

71

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 02:08:57
In addition growing demand for uranium can be expected to increase uranium prices. Prices for uranium are currently around $90 per pound having reached $150 per pound earlier this year. This compares to $20 per pound in 2000. Future significant price rises, or disruptions to uranium supplies, could affect the commercial viability of nuclear power operators - and therefore jeopardise the future operation of nuclear power stations.
72

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 02:09:19
We conclude therefore that nuclear power is not necessary to deliver secure energy supplies in Scotland, and furthermore that it cannot be automatically assumed that nuclear power will be any more secure than other forms of imported energy.

73

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 02:11:50
74 - Mcpravda blog, 11/11/2008 02:06:55

Somebody disnae like ye. Didnae take them long anaw. You are an unperson. Are you gone tae take that fae thum?
74

W Smith,

Middle East 11/11/2008 02:24:49
Just like the communists and the IRA, the Provo SNP are:

1) Anti-NATO
2) Anti-Trident
3) Pro-Hamas

No wonder Gordon Wilson booted Salmond out!

BTW
Some Scots would prefer to take instruction from Westminster than from the Muslim Brotherhood.
75

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 11/11/2008 02:28:14


BTO's Posts do have an 'element' of truths, maybe he has not come back to post, because he is 'banned' once more, thus he will be running out of email address, to register on this site, under differing signatures.

re: subject matter now!

Quite Honestly, we don't want "nuclear power", the contamination it causes, is not wanted in Scotland,

As far as "Salmond" is concerned, his credibility, is known as,..'Attacking our Young Voters'

Can Anyone take Him seriously Anymore?

Ditching the "Votes" that feeds Him,...

...."Speaks Mountains"!!



76

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 02:34:39
82 - W Smith, Middle East 11/11/2008 02:24:49

Some Scots would prefer to keep their own counsel than to take instruction from anyone.
77

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 02:37:30
83 - Charles Linskaill, Edinburgh 11/11/2008 02:28:14

"Ditching the "Votes" that feeds Him,..."

Aye - he's been a fool on this.
78

Castaway™ ,

11/11/2008 02:44:29
#82:Gordon Brown risked controversy today by shaking hands with Al Qaeda terrorists in a Saudi Arabian 'correction' centre.
The Prime Minister came face to face with the Jihadists who are believed to have been involved in terror plots to attack the West.
Mr Brown chatted to five Muslim extremists - two of whom were locked up in the notorious Guantanamo Bay detention camp in Cuba for their Al Qaeda links.
02/11/2008
79

,

11/11/2008 02:44:58
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
80

Bachman-Turner Overdrive,

11/11/2008 02:47:15
Salmond.

"Sometimes i think before I speak, but not often"

Anyone who admits to this, as he did on "Question Time", should be sent into excile on a lighthouse.
81

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 02:51:07
87 - Bachman-Turner Overdrive, 11/11/2008 02:44:58

"Is it going to be ID cards for Scots?"

Aye - that's Broon's plan - if we let him.
82

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 11/11/2008 02:53:19
LOL Bachman Turner Overdrive = Bring them on.

Got a new IP address have we BTO?

What a sophisticated troll you are indeed - new name - same old nonsense
83

Bachman-Turner Overdrive,

11/11/2008 02:55:32
Salmond spends four hours a day digging the garden and two hours a day trying to dig up political dirt.

The man is a "mad digger".

Gordon is in charge, thankfully.
84

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 11/11/2008 02:56:15


An Beal Bacht ~85,

Well I think so!

It IS of 'Sheer Stupidity' a 21year old, can be married, with Children, have a mortgage, and a great Job, and be told by, "Salmond" She/He cannot purchase a,..

....'Bottle of Wine'!

I am 'Truly Scottish, but it is beyond,...

...'Beggars Believe', one could make Such a 'Big Mistake'!

This is the only reason he lost, 'Glenrothes'!

The 'Age Group' He attacked, was NOT the 18-20year olds, (as affected) but everyone that
has friend's and associates, with this, "Age Group"!

So for arguments sake, lets 'face-it', it takes all from the 18-30year olds,

A Mass Population of Active Voters!

MISTAKE?

BIG, BIG MISTAKE, THAT HAS COST HIM 'SWEET'!



85

Bishop Boyne,

Loanhead 11/11/2008 03:03:06
Why not sell the generating industry and expertise to France!! and use the money keep more bankers in a job!
86

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 11/11/2008 03:12:37


I am really getting, 'fed-up' with all this nonsense of HBOS, Lost Votes, Nuclear Power, etc, etc!

FACE THE TRUTH FOR ONCE, IN YOUR LIVES!!

WE WERE, 'LET-DOWN' BY THE,..'MAN-AT-THE-TOP'!

END-OFF!!



87

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 03:19:21
92 - Charles Linskaill, Edinburgh 11/11/2008 02:56:15

A tactical error made with the best intentions. I don't support independence because of the SNP or Alex Salmond. Rather, I will support the SNP and Alex Salmond as long as they can deliver independence. Will they make mistakes? Certainly. In their case - they don't have a compliant media to spin it for them and are left bare ^rsed in the wind when that happens.

There are lots of areas where Alex Salmond and I part company. I don't like his economics and never have. I overlook this because the corporate media spin free market global capitalism as the only game in town. Now we see where that gets us, and yet the leaders of the world and the media are unrepentant in their support for that philosophy.

But Alex Salmond does not equate to independence. He is one Scot amongst many. Independence is the goal - the aspiration - the quest. We will get there eventually.
88

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 03:25:00
94 - Charles Linskaill, Edinburgh 11/11/2008 03:12:37

You exaggerate. It is the duty of the First Minister to intervene to salvage what he can from HBoS. Nuclear power is an issue that unites most Scots - we don't want it. In Glenrothes the SNP did not lose votes - they increased their share of the vote.

Calm down - the independence project is on track.
89

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 11/11/2008 03:37:33


An Beal Bacht ~95/96,

All one can say!, if we had a, 'Thatcher' at the 'Top'

We Would be,..'Partying all Night', every Night!


Soo Much for 'Scottish Politics'! :(((.....,

.....'AS-IF'!






90

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 11/11/2008 03:38:13
Rufus T. Firefly,11/11/2008 00:02:26
"Salmond won't be happy until we end up like South Africa where power cuts are the norm due to a lack of generating capacity."

A few months ago we had power cuts in South Africa due to power stations running out of coal because of transport mismanagement.

During the cuts, "Escom" ( the national supplier of electricity) were exporting power to neighbouring countries, making the situation worse.

In short the cuts were due to MANAGEMENT'S INCOMPETENCE.

The cuts have ceased after a national uproar over the debacle.

Rufus T. Firefly!

Cuts in South Africa are NOT the norm as you claim NOR were the cuts due to a lack of generating capacity!

You obviously just make things up, in an attempt to support anything you choose to say.
91

,

11/11/2008 03:43:52
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
92

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 11/11/2008 03:48:09





Me! Bed, night, night, Don't let,..'Salmond' Bite! :))

(God!, them,...'Bed-bugs')

:D





93

Royster,

11/11/2008 03:48:59
#10. Close Holyrood or Westminster. I don't care where parliament is held as long as there is a single, freely-elected parliament for the whole of the UK and that parliament is based somewhere within the UK. These pretendy parliaments are pathetic and should be shut down ASAP.
94

Bachman-Turner Overdrive,

11/11/2008 03:49:23
"Fishermans Friend" Salmond needs to "take a walk on the wild side".

See more of the real world. Say a few things that are relevant to the "young ones".

And I don't mean Cliff Richard....
95

Royster,

11/11/2008 03:49:51
#12. That's fine by me.
96

Otis Boone,

Sacramento 11/11/2008 04:19:21
We have a concept over here called State Property. It means that there's land that my state, California, owns and does what it wishes on, without much regard for local authorities. Then there's US Government land, which the US Government uses for its own purposes without regard for that which the States and localities want. Couple that with the American version of the ideal that "the Queen can do no wrong," if Bush wanted to build a Nuclear Plant in the middle of the Klamath River Valley, Fuhrer Arnold von Schwarzenegger could only sue - he couldn't pass ordinances or law to prevent it.

I take it that when devolution occurred, Tony Blair & Co., didn't think to include language to remind Holyrood, Cardiff and Belfast that their areas of competence do not include overriding decisions of Westminster.

Law of unintended consequences I guess. The UK needs a written Constitution and evolution into a Federal Constitutional Monarchy a la Canada and Australia.

Funny thing I caught: Salmond wants control of immigration policy for Scotland. Ha ha. Salmond, stop running without the ball. Get your independence negotiations, then you can decide how many of us non-Scots can come to stay a while.
97

Guga II,

Rockall 11/11/2008 04:54:27
Scotland produces surplus power which is sent to England. We don't need nuclear power stations.

However, the "listening government" (the one with the "ethical" foreign policy) run by the Quisling and Stalinist Maggie Broon, is determined to crush Scotland and bring it totally under the control of the English government.

If this liar, war criminal and charlatan thinks that there is a need for more power capacity for England, then the solution is obvious, build the nuclear power stations where they are needed, i.e. in England. They could build a ring of them around London, and dump all their waste in Bliar's Dome.

In any event, I am totally sick of that scumbag Maggie Broon selling out Scotland and the Scottish people. The sooner we are independent, the better; and out from under the yoke of English imperialism and the influence of that Quisling Stalinist, totalitarian control freak, Maggie Broon.

98

frank mcbride,

lusitania 11/11/2008 04:59:23
Calm down people!

Every sentient being knows that Calman is going to advocate stronger powers for the Scottish Executive. It will be a blow to PM Brown, but he will swallow it, for the better governance of the UK.

I know this to be true because my friends in the Labour Party have told me so.

Lindsay Roy told me that his school's budget had been cut.

Wendy Alexander told me that Gordon had agreed that there should be a Referendum on Scottish Independence.

My very, very, very good friend Gordon told me that there was no more economic "boom and bust".

My best friend Tony assured me, on the Holy Bible, that Saddam Hussein had WMDs.

He also assured me that, our mutual friend, Bernie Eccleston's 1m donation to Party funds had nothing to do with tobacco advertising.

Given these authenicated statements, why are people still doubting?
Are people, really, that cynical?
99

donald,

glasgow 11/11/2008 05:09:35
Wasn't Tony Benn in 1974, when Huntertson and Torness were built? Wasn't the Old Viscount in power when Labour closed most of the Scottish pits before Thatcher? Wasn't he quiet about the Pre Thatcherite Labour Pay Freeze? Wasn't that the year he was a signatory to the PTA? Didn't he approve of the invasion of Ireland in 1969 and all the draconian laws that followed? Didn't the Brit left support Labour groups then and still oppose Independence now?
100

donald,

glasgow 11/11/2008 05:10:10
Wasn't Tony Benn in 1974, when Huntertson and Torness were built? Wasn't the Old Viscount in power when Labour closed most of the Scottish pits before Thatcher? Wasn't he quiet about the Pre Thatcherite Labour Pay Freeze? Wasn't that the year he was a signatory to the PTA? Didn't he approve of the invasion of Ireland in 1969 and all the draconian laws that followed? Didn't the Brit left support Labour groups then and still oppose Independence now?
101

Jock's Away,

africa 11/11/2008 05:11:31
This is about what Westminister wants CONTROL. History tells us there are always enough Scots who would sell the intrest of Scotland to that market. Legislation being miss used is rife, see how many councils are misusing the recent enacted laws AGAINST their own citizens and Rate Payer.
Powder Generation and distribution is about money, shareholders profits and directors Bonuses. Buy a policitan and secure a constant online stream of the Green. Nuclear is a red herring for today, the real price will be paide by generations to come in health and wealth when disposal and decommisioning are needed. it is time to Stop being taken in by the packaging and assess the actual product being sold. Most of the time it is a "Pig in a poke."
102

donald,

glasgow 11/11/2008 05:11:50
Tony Benn was Min of Tech, during that period of Lord Harold Wilson's "White Hot Technological Revolution". Some Revolutionary.
103

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 11/11/2008 05:22:37
Poor Charles

"The 'Age Group' He attacked, was NOT the 18-20year olds, (as affected) but everyone that
has friend's and associates, with this, "Age Group"!

If it wasn't for Drunk Teenagers passing out on his couch, he would not get any sex at all.
104

Champion Haggis Slayer of Fife,

11/11/2008 05:23:59
I blame the Gutless Traitors of Glenrothes. Labour think they have it in the bag and will proceed as they always have, with total disregard to the wishes of the people of Scotland because their scaremongering actually works as the TRAITORS OF GLENROTHES HAVE PROVED!
105

Angleland Isover,

11/11/2008 06:38:15
Scotland shouldn't be in the position where a foreign country can give power or take it away at a whim. The power should be ours by right.
106

Angleland Isover,

11/11/2008 07:09:48
Employment doesn't justify nuclear cost, waste, risk. Their are other jobs.
107

Evan Owen,

Uppergumtree 11/11/2008 07:10:29
Scrap 'devolution', it is an experiment that created a monster.
108

Rodster,

Glasgow 11/11/2008 07:18:52
#112 Champion Haggis Slayer
Could not agree more , it is true after all
" Never trust a Fifer!"
109

John (Again),

Bury St Edmunds 11/11/2008 07:19:08
Fortunately a programme of new nuclear in the UK (or in Scotland) is highly unlikely. Why?

Build costs are soaring - the prototype EPR in Finland is 3 years late and 50% overspent.

The credit crunch will scupper the purchase of BE by EdF and Centrica.

Uranium supplies are dwindling.

The expert staff is near retirement.

Gordon Brown has run out of subsidy monies. What funds can be found will be needed to tidy up the mess left from the present lot.
110

Mikey,

11/11/2008 07:27:06
I see to remember a certain gentleman stating to Westminster that, "You have to win all the time. We have to win just once!"

The champions of Westminster and their lackeys have obviously still not taken that in! It seems that Westminster and its lackeys want to treat Scotland like some pre-independence African country. "We gave you this and we can take it away!"

Let Labour try and reduce the power of the SP! You want a fight, then, by God, we'll give you one!
111

Law abiding ,

Right here 11/11/2008 07:36:09
Still not much answer on what to do with the radiactive waste, which makes this form of energy one of the dirtiest, all factors included. It is by far the most expensive, and guess who foots the bill for those costs? Uranium by some estimates will run out by 2050, so all we are talking about is delaying the day of dealing with our addiction to easy energy.
Nuclear energy looks good if you only look at one part, looking at the whole picture is why you see no private investors, only goverment backed by tax dollars can subsidise these things. Can't we think of a better option to subsidise, I mean redistribute, our weatlth to the top of the corporations. Does anyone believe we will get cheap enery as a result of these things? The US does not even have enough proposed sutes in its entire desert for the waste already created, even if they were allowed. Is that part of Scotland's future; or any place?
112

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 11/11/2008 08:13:07
Its TIME for the Scottish Government to challenge the Westminster Government in the European Commissions Human Rights Courts.

There is a clear case of discrimination towards an Ethnic Minority in the un United Kingdoms. After all New Labour convenietly forgets that the UK Government were told that lack of representation and ability for Scotland, Wales and the British Colony in Northern Ireland. Tony Blair and Brown know this is the reason a Scottish Parliament was formed.

I personally wouldnt have the slightest problem in raising funding for the Scottish answer to the armed struggle that many former Colonies had to resort too.

Of course allowing the democratic process to continue, is the ideal solution, but sometimes one has to push things along.I dare say that as an open group of nations, there would be many opportunities to take the fight directly to an opposing groups homebase.

Of course personally I wouldnt participate in any illegal act.
113

Warden An' All, Reborn,

11/11/2008 08:13:15
The reason we have a surplus of energy in Scotland at this time is due to the nuclear plants we already have, and they will go. Unless we can magically materialise a guaranteed supply of energy we are going to be over a barrel having to rely on energy from the Russians.
114

Linda,

Edinburgh 11/11/2008 08:13:52
sm753

This is not a silly story. It is further evidence that one of the most centralised countries in the world wants to retain powers in London.

Scotland is a nation and we should have full control over our affairs.

Short of that we must have full fiscal autonomy with borrowing and tax raising (or lowering) powers in order to have a more responsible Scottish Parliament and have the necessary powers to make major economic decisions.
115

Linda,

Edinburgh 11/11/2008 08:17:26
The UK government is more concerned about Scottish planning stopping Trident Mark 2 being situated in Scottish waters.

116

Dr. James Wilkie,

Vienna 11/11/2008 08:24:12
The empire strikes back!
117

David Ban,

04620 Vera 11/11/2008 08:26:51
We need to press on with the technology to produce electricity from the tidal races eg the Pentland Firth. We do not need or want the nuclear option. We are a country rich in natural resources though we appear to have little say in their development and use.

It will be tragic if we have to fight for our rights because of the arrogance of the quislings in London.
118

John S,

11/11/2008 08:30:10
#130 Linda I agree.It isn't about building nuclear power stations in Scotland but it is about replacing the Trident nuclear missile system in Scotland, to relocate Trident to another location in either England or Wales would give the Government a problem, maybe a major problem ?
That is why the above article mentions nuclear weapons and the Nationalists' anti-nuclear stance has extended to attacking plans to renew the Trident warheads on the Clyde etc Scottish Parliament and Trident along with MoD's national security concerns.
P.S. Westminster has already announced eight new nuclear power stations planned for England. 13 Jul 2008
119

Mike Partick,

Glasgow 11/11/2008 08:38:46
128 - if you take the nuclear power stations out of the equation Scotland still produces all the electricity it needs, what it can't do however is export much power to England.

If this is about anything then it looks like it is about using Scotland as the base for the additional energy England will need in the future.
120

scottish person,

paisley 11/11/2008 08:42:57
Is this the english government telling the scots what they are going to do.
What a cheek, and what a cheek all the non-brained unionist posters like rufus firef**k stoking the flames of unionism. Is no one going to mention the 7000 postal votes that the thicko's from Glenrothes posted, or the blanket ban by the media on all things SNP. The beeb, the herald the daily rectum and the hootsmon should hang their heads in shame.Alex Salmond is the politician who is raising the questions on HBOS, but the beeb interviewed tavish chinless lib dem viking. Shame on you all, it will haunt you.
121

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 11/11/2008 08:52:54
#138

A little bit full or ourself are we rober?. can o offer you a couple of quid to go and post your $hite elsewhere?
122

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 11/11/2008 08:57:54
#131

What have the slackers who don't turn up to vote got to do with anything?

Were the SNP invited to join Calman? - no, would they joing a talking shop that dosen't explore all the options? - no, would there have been a Calman if there wasn't a 'national converation'? - no, would there have been a Calman if the SNP were not in power? - no.

Your post is nonsense sir
123

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 11/11/2008 09:04:30
IRN - totally agree.

The energy strategy should be:-

1/Conservation/efficiency

2/Local, micro production

3/Baseload renewables

4/Baseload coal and oil

5/Baseload Nuclear

Clearly Scotland has no need for the last option, it is renewable super power. Now let me think, who would try to stymie that - hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm (much scratching of chin)



124

Dragonlord,

11/11/2008 09:09:54
24~ You correct. We send power South and always have.Those that claim we will have blackouts know nothing! Why do you think Englandshire wanted to build massive pylons, right through the heart of Scotland, ruining the best beauty spots in the world?
125

Lianachan,

Highlands 11/11/2008 09:14:48
Nuclear power is probably the biggest issue where the SNP and I do not agree. I tend to find that the people who fear nuclear power the most are those that understand it the least.

126

Warden An' All, Reborn,

11/11/2008 09:22:50

136-Mike Partick-I only wish you were right about Scotland producing enough power without nuclear. If you had been right salmond wouldn’t have extended his plans for the use of it would he?
If England is using Scotland for additional energy it is because they have a right to do so, the act of union allows Westminster such powers, and come to think of it almost anything they might think up.



127

John S,

11/11/2008 09:24:24
Nuclear power plants smaller than a garden shed and able to power 20000 homes will be on sale within five years, say scientists at Los Alamos.
The miniature reactors will be factory-sealed, contain no weapons-grade material, have no moving parts and will be nearly impossible to steal because they will be encased in concrete and buried underground.

The US government has licensed the technology to Hyperion, a New Mexico-based company which said last week that it has taken its first firm orders and plans to start mass production within five years. 'Our goal is to generate electricity for 10 cents a watt anywhere in the world,' said John Deal, chief executive of Hyperion. 'They will cost approximately $25m [£13m] each. For a community with 10,000 households, that is a very affordable $2,500 per home.' Nov 9 2008
http://tinyurl.com/5fqwh4
128

Warden An' All, Reborn,

11/11/2008 09:29:44

145-Lianachan-How would you explain those who do understand nuclear power and still fear for its safety. Me I understand it and fear it, and still I know we need it until we can find something useful enough to take its place.

129

Mike Partick,

Glasgow 11/11/2008 09:31:11
147 - If I am wrong then tell me how Scotland - without importing energy - managed when both Torness and Hunterston were offline for most of 2006.
130

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 11/11/2008 09:32:21
On the BBC Site the Scottish secretary says their are no plans to end the Scots Nuclear Veto. I wonder who is telling the truth here? Have the Scotsman prematurely announced a non starter of a story to try and undermine the SNP? Would they do such a thing?
131

Alan B,

11/11/2008 09:38:02
Brown is really acting towards Scotland in the same way Thatcher did. With sheer contempt.

Brown needs to deal with the fact that scotland did not vote for labour at the last election. Get over it that is democracy.

132

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 11/11/2008 09:40:36
#137 scottish person

At least the Herald and Scotsman (plus their Sunday sisters) are being sent a message by their readers.

Read this:

"The Sunday Herald is suffering a substantial drop in its average sales, according to the latest circulation figures - which were reported on allmediascotland.com yesterday.

According to the latest ABCs, the paper’s average sale in October - as measured by Average Net Circulation - was 43,095, down 527 on its September average.

However, it’s the figure in comparison to this time last year that will be a bigger cause for concern: it’s year-on-year is down 15.6 per cent.

Meanwhile, The Scotsman’s year-on-year is down 9.2 per cent, The Herald’s is down 8.8 per cent and Scotland on Sunday’s is down 7.9 per cent.

The corresponding Scottish sales figures for Daily Telegraph and The Guardian are both up - 1.1 per cent and 1.8 per cent, respectively - while it's a 1.2 per cent drop for The Times."
133

Alan B,

11/11/2008 09:42:08
Electricity policy in scotland was different to englands pre devolution.

Scotland was privatised differently. In england it was privatised with a separation of generation and distrubition.

Scotland generated much more of its electricity from nuclear than england despite the people apparently being more anit nuclear.

NETA was brought in in England and not in Scotland (atleast for a long while)

Scotland under the last labour exec in scottish parliament set much higher targets for renewables than England.


As such i cannot see the reason for not having devolution of electricity to the scottish parliament.

It really does not matter to the english electrate if scotland uses nuclear or not. As such that should be democratic choice of the scottish electrate.

Brown just seems power mad with severe psycological problems.
134

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 11/11/2008 09:43:40
#144 sme

You have to laugh at smee. You really do !
135

MacMhuirich,

Ljubljana 11/11/2008 09:44:14

Scotland is probably the part of the UK which is currently doing the best out of the current Union because it has the greatest degree of self-determination under devolution, more than Wales, London or Northern Ireland.

A lot of the posters here have complained about Scotland not having (even) more power. None of the English regions thave the powers and autonomy Scotland has, nor does England as whole. Why should the North West of England, which as a population similar to that of Scotland not also have a say about whether there should be nuclear stations there?

Such tensions and debates are a natural and healthy consequence of a devolved or federal system... and it is a lot better than the system that preceded it. If all the regions and nations of the UK have equivalent autonomy, it would be better and fairer - the stronger local democracy and accountability is the better.

If the Scots want independence they can vote for it and have it but until then they are part of the UK, like the English regions, and being part of the UK is a process of give and take.
136

Alan B,

11/11/2008 09:47:33
England imports electricity from France and Scotland. Scotland exports electricity to England and Northern Ireland.

Do not know the current situation but a while ago we produced 40% more electricity than we needed for domestic consumption.


But the issue is not really nuclear or not for scotland. The issue is who decides nuclear or not for scotland. A scottish government accountable to the scottish electrate or uk government accountable to the uk electrate.
137

SlyFifer,

Somewhere south of Fife 11/11/2008 09:48:38
So, let me get this right. England/Britain want Scotland to have new/up-graded nuclear power stations. Democratically elected Scottish parliament does not and may use legal planning laws to stop/thwart such development. Scotland has abundant energy resources way and above it's domestic needs therefore sees no need for such up-grading. Reasonable !.
Were the boot to be on the other foot and it was the Scots who were pressuring England to build nuclear power stations there would the English not use their anti-terrorist laws to stop such develpoment ?.
Democracy is coming to the UK whether the English or the Establishment like it or not. Luckily, almost everything the UK government do these days adds fuel to the independence movement so I suppose we need more of this paff to energise the Scots into action and to prevent debacles like Glenrothes from happening again. Soon there will be more than one independence party to choose from. Wonderful - can't wait.
138

daveserviceman,

edinburgh 11/11/2008 09:50:06
My Brother is in the Russian army. He tells me that they have redirected their missiles to all of Europes non nuclear countries also claims that even if the whole of the uk did not have trident it would not make any difference the UK would still be a target for a first strike and they laugh at alex salmond they call him the obeast with a self inflated ego who does not have anyones interest except his own
139

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 11/11/2008 09:51:47
#148 deep thought

What electoral fraud did you witness?
140

The Strategist,

11/11/2008 09:51:56
This is how to do it.

http://www.hyperionpowergeneration.com/

141

Warden An' All, Reborn,

11/11/2008 09:53:47
This for your education today little minded boys and girls, we speakers of an english dialect known as scots, are a very small minority within Great Britain. If the majority of the english speaking public in Great Britain wishes to place its nuclear power and weapons in scotland then it is their right.
142

Alan B,

11/11/2008 09:54:26
#MacMhuirich

England does not have regional assemblies because it did not want or vote for them.

The north east was given a referendum and voted no. That killed any chance of an english federal system.

Part of the issue was the tories were completely against it seeing it another tier of government. They could have ditched the house of lords if they were really bothered about that. And blair was not really interested in devolving power but ihnerited labours half hearted policies.

The english media were generally against english regionalisation. The london media only supported it for london.

As such it is up to England to decide how it wants to respond to improve it governance post devolution and rectify any democratic deficits that were created.

However that should not mean that scottish devolution should be undermined. The idea of devolution is you devolve power unless there is a good reason for pulling powers and taking decisions centrally. This allows different parts of a country/or union of countries take different decisions in different parts according to the needs and desires of the local population.
143

Westfield Bairns,

falkirk 11/11/2008 09:57:54
Gordon Brown should get a reality check even a fair number of Labour MSPs do not support Nuclear Energy in Scotland, despite what their leaders say. At present i vote SNP as i am a Nationalist, however i would not dismiss Nuclear generating and even weapons out of hand. Decisions such as this however will be decided by the Scottish people in the best interest of Scotland
144

Mike Partick,

Glasgow 11/11/2008 09:57:58
165 - Warden an All, Reborn - what a lot of rubbish! Can't actually decide if you are being tongue in cheek or simly waiting for a lobotomy!
145

Miss H,

11/11/2008 10:00:39
Hmm. Never mind London Labour's very evident intention to pick a fight with the Scottish Government - I predict civil war in the Scottish Labour Party very soon.
146

Rodster,

11/11/2008 10:01:12

157
MacMhuirich,
Ljubljana 11/11/2008 09:44:14

A lot of the posters here have complained about Scotland not having (even) more power. None of the English regions thave the powers and autonomy Scotland has, nor does England as whole. Why should the North West of England, which as a population similar to that of Scotland not also have a say about whether there should be nuclear stations there?

The simple answer to that was when they had referendums in Northern England they rejected devolved assemblies.
so why you or anyone else should be carping for them now goers against all reason .
We demanded it , voted overwhelmingly for it, and using those powers have said NO to Nuclear .
now Westminster in general and Brown in particular do not like Scotland having that democratic choice so they want to remove it .
In this Scotland you can vote anything you like , as long as it is Labour , , you can have anything you want , as long as Westminster wants it .
you are not entitled to make any serious decisions for yourselves .
Mainly because we Scots , are too stupid , too weak ,and too poor to be independent
147

,

11/11/2008 10:02:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
148

tommy M,

Scotland 11/11/2008 10:03:10
For westminster "ambitions" read "intentions"

Did westminster not already undermine the security of Scotland, Engerland, Ni and wales by taking us into an illegal war in Iraq?

And if SNP politicians are termed as "The Nats" in this paper, does that mean Labour politicians get the nickname "The Liars"?
149

tommy M,

Scotland 11/11/2008 10:06:54
the good people of kent do not wish anything nuclear dirtying their doorsteps - so send anything to do with nuclear to Scotland...Boom and bust brown's days as liebour leader are surely numbered. Keep going Thatcher-Brown, every attempt to deny Scots the right to govern our own nation is another vote for Independence.You're getting nearly as useful as liar wendy was!
150

noswod,

Honestas 11/11/2008 10:08:11
Lets face it the lights are aboot tae go oot !. Two new power nuclear power stations should be built in Scotland to ensure Carbon free secure cheap base electricity grid load supply. Slamond and the Nats show thier naviety with the anti nuke stance. Depending on windmills for base load 24/7 power is not a practical solution to stop the lights going oot. Don Slamond with his stance on Nuclear power and the local income tax (Scotland loses £400m) is getting more like Margret Thatcher every day. As for trying to prevent the stationing of new Nuclear Submarines in the Holy loch more madness, its the only industry in the area, the need to keep the Russians contained and deterred with the illustration of the Georgian invasion is self evident. The madness of King Slamond will reduce Scotland to an impoverished, Russian speaking protectorate with no lights and bust banks.
151

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 11/11/2008 10:09:29
Those unionists in the London government don't hang around do they? They win a by-election on a Thursday and their giving democracy a kicking by the week-end.

However I have heard of one idea that could decide what the people really want, (not mine but I still like it), when it comes to raising the money for Trident why don't it's supporters go around shaking cans on the streets and if they succeed fair enough but if they don't it gets scrapped.

Over the same period of time the money that is earmarked for the project could go to all those service men and their families who are still dependant on charity, or some of it could go to providing proper equipment for our troops, might even save some lives.

Has some merit surely!

152

Alan B,

11/11/2008 10:13:14
#Miss H

What makes you think their would be civil war in scottish labour. They are a party that has sold all its values and policies and has no heart anymore.

Ian Grey is not going to lead a fight. He is just there to do Browns bidding. Scottish London labour do not like devolution and would close it down if they could. Glenrothes is the excuse labour in london needed. Glenrothes was a vote against the scottish parliament.
153

Miss H,

11/11/2008 10:16:29
177 Yes - I feel amazingly chipper considering we lost a by-election on Thursday.

I haven't quite reached the stage of feeling glad we lost it because it has flushed out GB's true intentions towards Scotland but I am almost getting there.

Labour MSPs must feel sick to their stomachs. Iain Gray has been completely overshadowed by Jim Murphy and now London is dictating policy to the Scottish party (without even informing them first I understand).

They must be gutted but what will it take to make them squeal I wonder. They will be being told that this is all part of the election winning strategy but if they don't win at Westminster what then for Scottish Labour? Interesting times.
154

Scheme,

11/11/2008 10:17:47
Would the shight bags in Glenrothes have voted labour if they had heard about this last week? Probably....
155

Miss H,

11/11/2008 10:19:29
178 For reasons posted in 179. Remember the MSP group were not allowed to run the 2007 campaign - was done by London based staff and members. They were not happy about that and they lost. If Labour lose the general election - which the odds are they will - and if the SNP increases its Westminster representation - which the odds are it will - that will be what tips the Scottish Parliament group over the edge.
156

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 11/11/2008 10:25:32
Good. It's about time that a bit of common sense was injected into the stupid idea that somehow Scotland can generate all of its electricity from windmills.
157

Lianachan,

Highlands 11/11/2008 10:28:26
#127 Probably the first post I can remember seeing here that extols the virtues of terrorism.

#150 I said "I tend to find", not "I exclusively find".

#159 "But the issue is not really nuclear or not for scotland. The issue is who decides nuclear or not for scotland". That is indeed the real issue here.

#165 A popular misconception. Modern English and Scots are both Anglic languages, derived from a common root in Old English. Scots is not a dialect of English. In any case, what about Gaelic? A completely different language and culture. The language isn't very widely spoken any more, but the culture (quite different from the Anglic culture) is strong.



158

Rasco,

11/11/2008 10:28:53
The UK Government say the first 9 years was a success yes only because they just had to snap their fingers and Lab/Lib would do as they were told a different story now when we have a Government who wants the best for Scotland.Saw a picture of Broon with a big grin on his face sitting at the table at the Guildhall all in his white coat and tails that's his style what about all the pensioners who will die this winter who can't afford heating,wonder how much this party cost and who pays.
159

Alan B,

11/11/2008 10:29:14
#Miss H

Yes if labour lose the general election then things will change within labour. Brown will probably resign and be gone. And a new english labour leader will not exert such direct rule on scottish labour in holyrood. As such if the tories do well and are in power for a while again labour will change.

But that is dependent on the result of the next general election.

Until that time and if Brown wins the election then labour in scotland will be run directly by Brown. The simply is noone in labour in scotland that will challenge him. There is not ethics left or heart. Wendy was said to be intelligent in labour purely becuase she actually had opinions of her own.

You just have to look at how bad the leadership candidates were for labour at holyrood. They no longer have someone with a bit of stature like Deacon.

160

Alan B,

11/11/2008 10:32:53
#Miss H

Unlike you I think Glenrothes was a complete and utter disaster. I can see no good coming from it.

The snp are always fighting an uphill battle with the media completely biased against the snp. The only lesson the snp have to learn is they will have to start fighting alot dirtier. Labour are a dirty party and will do anything for power and the snp strategy of being positive etc is how it should be but i doubt it will be enough in itself.

You can see that with the new labour mps statements about education cuts. When pointed out it was actually increases he publically admitted he did not know the figures. So he knowingly lied. Then after winning and after being exposed for telling porkies he repeated the lie.

Labours tactics are the same as under the tories in scotland. If you lie enough people will believe you. If you have a media who will repeat and not expose these lies, labour have a platform for electral success.

Blair removed devolution of the media for one reason. And that was that it would help focus on scotland and not london. As such the snp are fighting against all odds.
161

Calum10,

11/11/2008 10:34:39
Unionists support Nuclear Weapons and Nuclear Power.

Nationalists support Green Technology and Green Energy.

Who will win?

Now here is the clinching arguement - the world is running put of uranium. The proposed global increase in nuclear power mean that existing world deposits of uranium will run out in 40 years. That is less than oil.

We have all heard of 'peak oil' well 'peak uranium' is here and now.
162

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 11/11/2008 10:34:48
Perhaps they should build a new nuclear power station in Glenrothes - ONLY JOKING!

Seriously though, it will soon be time for the Labour MSPs to stand up and be counted. If, for example the SNP responds by putting forward a bill stating that no nuclear power stations should be built on Scottish soil, what are Scottish Labour going to do - abstain? Even that would be risky, given the absolute rejection of nuclear power by the Scottish electorate.

I think that Scottish Labour are wide open to attack on this issue. A nuclear achilles heal. It won't take long before Salmond exploits this and once again out-flanks them.
163

Watson,

Irvine 11/11/2008 10:37:27
186 Alan B,11/11/2008 10:32:53
#Miss H

Unlike you I think Glenrothes was a complete and utter disaster. I can see no good coming from it.

The snp are always fighting an uphill battle with the media completely biased against the snp. The only lesson the snp have to learn is they will have to start fighting alot dirtier. Labour are a dirty party and will do anything for power and the snp strategy of being positive etc is how it should be but i doubt it will be enough in itself.

You can see that with the new labour mps statements about education cuts. When pointed out it was actually increases he publically admitted he did not know the figures. So he knowingly lied. Then after winning and after being exposed for telling porkies he repeated the lie.

Labours tactics are the same as under the tories in scotland. If you lie enough people will believe you. If you have a media who will repeat and not expose these lies, labour have a platform for electral success.

Blair removed devolution of the media for one reason. And that was that it would help focus on scotland and not london. As such the snp are fighting against all odds.

I see The Herald is changing it's comments policy. I suppose you will not be allowed to say anything unless you are a New Labour party member and don't know the difference from truth and lies.
164

Alan B,

11/11/2008 10:40:26
"The UK Government say the first 9 years was a success "

So plunging scotland into a manufacturing recession in the late 90s was a success.

So plunging scotland into a full blown recession in 2001/2002 was a success.

So the complete and utter disaster of the introduction of education reforms where exam papers were not marked was a success.

So Blair slagging of labour in scotland handling of the nhs up here indicated success.

Labour preparing to close A&E wards was a success when even its own coalition partner said it was based on wrongheaded information and that they got it wrong.

So labour running transport where the minster in charge could not even remember to sign forms for bridge tolls. Even the tories did not make that big a shambles over basic admin. And then was investigated for the outsourced private contract.

So labour running a scottish economy much slower than the uk and the other small european countries was a success. Where even the architect of their economic strategy said it failed as it was badly implemented.

Labour were successful with education as they knew there own minister was so poor that they took out responsibilities for schools from her. Only minister of education i know who was not in charge of schools.

The same minster when moved to justice then kept losing prisioners.


Labour were a complete and utter shambles in power.
165

MacMhuirich,

Ljubljana 11/11/2008 10:44:50
#Alan B & Rodster

The point is the powers Defence Matters and Nuclear Energy remain with UK government in Westminster. Scotland is fairly and democratically represented in Westminster. Because of devolution Scotland now (rightly) also has autonomy over many other matters as well as a more audible voice over all matters, including those which the Scottish government has no power, since the Scottish parliament can act as a powerful spokesperson for Scotland.

You may believe that Scotland should also have power over Nuclear Energy and Defence. But you cannot complain the English are depriving you of having a say over any matter or undermining Scotland's devolved powers, because the Scots actually now have more say than the English regions have, even over non-devolved powers. In these matters all citizens of the UK have the same democratic rights; a fair solution would be to have a UK-wide referendum on nuclear power with the possibility of no new nuclear power stations being rejected in the countries or regions opposed them.

It is inevitable that there will be conflicts between different instiutions (national/federal and devolved) because different areas of competence in practice overlap, such as Energy policy and planning. These will be resolved one way or another (one of the options being independence). But what grounds are there for complaining that Scotland is losing devolved powers when it has been gaining autonomy progressively over the past two decades?
166

pwd,

Borders 11/11/2008 10:48:12
*26

"The vast majority of people in Scotland are against the construction of Nuclear Plants."

Where is this "vast majority"? Are you referring to the 17% of the electorate which voted for the SNP at the last Scottish Executive election?

167

Nikostratos,,

11/11/2008 10:51:02
Seems to be the same extremist Nationalist rabble whinging over Westminster yet again.

Vote for the snp and live huddled around a single candle per household.no nasty central heating no electricity no cars apart from the first ministers but you can have a nice bicycle.


168

Nikostratos,,

11/11/2008 10:58:03
#192

wouldn't that be illegal and lead to a number of traitors to the queen being put in prison..Still why don't you lead off with this putsch when are you going to start then?

we are waiting???
169

Miss H,

11/11/2008 11:07:55
193 No. Majority means majority.

It has clearly escaped your notice that the previous Labour/Lib Dem administration blocked the construction of any new nuclear power stations on exactly the same grounds as the SNP administration. It's not actually a nationalist/unionist issue.

This story is actually nothing but a bit of sabre rattling from Labour anyway. Their own policy is based on having electricity generation sited as close as possible to the centres of population it is providing for.

That means that new nuclear stations will in fact be sited in and around the south east of England, not in Scotland.
170

Alan B,

11/11/2008 11:07:58
#MacMhuirich

Firstly I have made no reference to defence. The issue I was discussion was the make up of electricity production in Scotland. ie who should decide if scotland has nuclear. And who should decide the input of renewables etc.

While Scotland remains in the union then defence will always be a reverved power.

"But you cannot complain the English are depriving you of having a say over any matter or undermining Scotland's devolved powers, because the Scots actually now have more say than the English regions have, even over non-devolved powers. "

1) I am not complaining about England at all. I am complaining about Brown. Brown cannot take it labour lost in scotland and has continually thrown his toys out the pram.

2)As I said i am happy for England to have regional assemblies if they want them, but they voted against them. I would also be happy if England wanted an english parliament. But that is up to England.

3)How do scots have more say than england on non devolved matters. That is silly. England due to it size have about 10times the number of mps (roughly speaking) and such 99% of the time Britain will follow the line England votes for. That is part of the reason from devolution.

"a fair solution would be to have a UK-wide referendum on nuclear power with the possibility of no new nuclear power stations being rejected in the countries or regions opposed them."

A fair solution would be to
1)allow england a referendum on an english parliament
2)scotland already had a referendum on devolution based on the powers set out in the constitutional convention. Brown is wanting to remove powers that were devolved via a referendum.
3)I would happily have a referendum in scotland to decide whether electricity policy should be a reserved or devolved matter. I however do not find your idea fair where england could decide that electricity policy should not be devolved to the scottish parliament.

Also remember that electricity policy in scotlan
171

Nikostratos,,

11/11/2008 11:11:03
#197


75 £billion Um i see the maldives are considering buying a new homeland for when there's becomes submerged.

Now what about that for all the malcontent's such as hen broom etc...New Scotland would solve a lot of problems and then us normal people could get on with our lives's in peace.
172

Alan B,

11/11/2008 11:11:17
...
Also remember that electricity policy in scotland was different to englands both pre and post devolution so far as i poined out in a both above referring to such things as NETA, method of privatisation, and electricity makeup eg nuclear and renewables.

As such if you have different policies in the scotland and england it makes sense to devolve.
173

Nikostratos,,

11/11/2008 11:19:49
#202 Spook

Yeah that's right censorship. And hold on wasn't you moderated and didn't Ayrshire scot (another moderated nationalist) show you how to reinstate your moniker illegally.. ..
174

vorlic,

edinburgh 11/11/2008 11:20:16
reference power supplies. i was talking to a person who works on a production rig who told me that the gas supply is controlled in amount supplied therefore forcing up prices. also that most of the gas supplied from his supply rig is sent for export.how can the uk government allow this, export by all means but only when home needs in the uk are met.
175

Miss H,

11/11/2008 11:20:27
191 The problem with energy policy is that it is split. London is not actually responsible for all policy - it is responsible for generation, transmission, distribution and supply of electricity and regulating the market. The promotion of renewable energy is however devolved.

The installed capacity of renewable electricity generation overtook nuclear in 2007.

Worth bearing in mind however that most of the energy we use is for heat and currently comes from fossil fuels. That is actually the big challenge facing Scotland. There is no danger of the 'lights going off' and we do not need nuclear to meet our electricity needs.
176

Nikostratos,,

11/11/2008 11:26:46
Mystery of lost US nuclear bomb


The United States abandoned a nuclear weapon beneath the ice in northern Greenland following a crash in 1968, a BBC investigation has found.


Greenland is a self-governing province of Denmark but the carrying of nuclear weapons over Danish territory was kept secret.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7720049.stm

Oooer! bit of a worry there
177

brownlie,

11/11/2008 11:28:17
200 nikos

"us normal people" - if you class yourself as normal you are in a minority of one!
178

Miss H,

11/11/2008 11:30:45
206 In fact the SNP has never postured hysterically over nuclear. The SNP has said we don't need new nuclear plants and we are not going to have them. Nothing hysterical about that.

The hysteria comes from the other side - even you must admit, with all this laughable posturing post-Glenrothes.

There is no way that the UK Government can 'make' Scotland have nuclear energy. If they start to unravel the Scotland Act the whole thing will unravel and they don't want that.

This is just posturing and trying to appear tough because they won a by-election. Jessies.
179

Alan B,

11/11/2008 11:31:22
#sm753

Do not have a clue how your post at #206 has anything to do with what I have posted. Have you directed it to the wrong number?
180

John B Dick,

Rothesay 11/11/2008 11:33:27
The Spook in Leith:

"Donald Dewar who said "Devolution would kill of the SNP AND Independence"

Not true. That was George Robertson, not perhaps the sharpest knife in the box.

Donald said that "Scotland will be independent when people vote for it"

I know, and maybe nobody else does, what his response was when, as a 17 year old schoolboy, his vision for the SP was exactly what we now have and he was challenged on the "slippery slope" argument not by a Tory, but by a nationalist.

The first aim of Home Rule was to provide better governmet for Soctland. The second was as a model for the reform of Westminster.

If Westminster won't reform, what then?
181

bluehead,

edinburgh 11/11/2008 11:34:54
brown wants to show he is the big boss,the people do not want nuclear stuff here in Scotland, This sickening bunch in Westminster can't get this, through their thick skulls,the less people have to do with brown and his mob the better,he and the rest of that pile have destroyed this country,it is barely recognisable to what it was,it is tragic to think that
in this period of remembrance,we have got a goverment
who sold Britain to the foreigners ,after all the brave people died in two wars to defend it.
now we have brown spreadeagled in submission to his masters in Brussels,showing his sickening fealty,against every principal of the people of this country,it is evil piled on evil!!!!!
182

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

11/11/2008 11:35:25
#205 The split is the problem - on the one hand we have a very pro-renewable Scottish government and on the other a very pro-nuclear Westminster governmnet. With renewables being devolved but generation being a reserved matter the no wonder there are conflicts in energy policy.

In any case I believe both the Scottish Governement and Westminster are blinkered in their approaches to energy policy. Both effectively rule out the others path as being an alternative to fossil fuels. What really is required is a comprehensive review of energy policy that examines all sources of energy - nothing should be ruled out or in - and it must be joined up thinking.

Consideration must be given to both short-term and long-term solutions with serious examination given to the generating possibilities and environmental effects of all possible routes. It seems to me that those who are very pro-renewables completely ignore the fact that renewables themselves have environmental problems. Equally, those who are pro-nuclear usually dismiss the renewables on the grounds of their low generating capabilities - without actually carrying out any serious analysis.
183

Nikostratos,,

11/11/2008 11:44:39
#212 sm753

And lose all the thoughts of Nikostratos.phew is it worth that I must consider all those who have been swayed by my commanding oratory and illiteracy..
184

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 11/11/2008 11:45:03
# 95 An Beal Bacht says:
"I will support the SNP and Alex Salmond as long as they can deliver independence."

Absolutely ABB. The goal is Independence, not to keep the SNP in power ad infinitem no matter what their policies.

The SNP is the best vehicle for Independence and therefore depends support. Post Independence it will still be worthy of support until such time as its policies become less valuable to Scotland than some other party.
185

Alan B,

11/11/2008 11:46:16
#The Federalist

"What really is required is a comprehensive review of energy policy that examines all sources of energy - nothing should be ruled out or in - and it must be joined up thinking."

I really do not see the point in a review. We know the facts it is just about a subjective opinion now on the best way forward.

And also the important question of who should decide. The current settlement voted for via a referendum gives the sp a veto over nuclear as such the scottish government effectively decides.

But in truth like many things labour made a complete botch of devolution and have fudged too many powers.

We need to clear it up with referendums. I would suggest have a referendum with a list of questions on different areas to clear up the mess of powers between the 2 partliaments.

Should be the following be a devolved matter
1)trains (stop the current fudged mess)
2)law and order (stop silly thing like number of police in a police car being vetoed by westmister when sp is in charge of policing)
a)firearms
b)id cards
c)number of days detention

3)energy
4)elections for scottish parliaments
5)running of the scottish parlaiment like number of mps, what the government is called and civil service
6)
a) fiscal autonomy if no
b)fiscal federalism
c)Brown daft option
d)continue with current arrangements

7)competition policy
8)ability to choose the currency used
9)broadcasting
10)EU membership


This is not a referendum on independence but on giving the sp more power over running scotland within a devolved settlement.
186

oder,

Scotland 11/11/2008 11:47:13
you said
Fact 1. 85% of Scots did NOT support SNP last time. Therefore SNP does NOT reflect Scottish opinion.

they are the legitimate elected government, playing around with figures and stats does not change that fact

you said
Fact 2. SNP refuses to take part in the Calman Commission. How can it infuence outcomes if it refuses to participate?

it was reported yesterday that in the wake of the victory in Glenrothes Brown will not devolve more power to Scotland, this effectively ends the need for Calman! whats the point of participating in an endeavour if you know the outcome before you start as the SNP said? and as Browns actions shows, there is no argument! that the majority of people in Scotland don't want nuclear power stations or Trident that's across the political divide! Brown now "orders" Calman to find away round the democratic wishes of the "people" to remove Scotland right to decide what should happen inside its own territory,

you said
I agree that nuclear power stations are neither necessary nor desirable because safe green options exist; but I disagree with SNP's cak-handedness in this matter (as in so many others).

does anyone have a reason why nuclear stations and trident subs can not be keep in England? thus respecting the will of the Scottish people and giving who ever in Westminster wants these things?
if we cant get a Scot to respect our decisions whats your chance with an Englishman in charge?
is it devolution if it works only in agreement with Westminster?
187

oder,

Scotland 11/11/2008 11:47:59
thats for poster 131 Rules
188

Alan B,

11/11/2008 11:50:30
#Brian Hill

I think that is the difference between many posters.

Most of the unionist posters are more bothered about supporting labour come what may no matter how bad they are. It is almost like supporting a football team. They will defend the indefensible. They will wait until labour come out with a policy and then defend it without an orginal thought of their own.

However with those that support independence the snp is only a vehicle to the end with the welfare of scotland at its heart. As such their is not real alligence to the snp other than to attain their goals.
189

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

11/11/2008 11:53:08
#197 The Spook in Leith,James watt Building 11/11/2008 11:02:21

"The Peace Chain is a peaceful protest against the UK Government's plan to build a new nuclear weapon system ('Trident replacement'), which would be at Faslane until 2055."

To clear something up here there is no replacement system being built. The Trident missile system is being moved to a newer platform. The weapon systems remains unaltered but the submarine that houses it is being replaced.

Moreover a non-nuclear deterrent would still require some sort of submarine-based launch platform - the idea that there are massive savings to be made by scrapping Trident is something of a red herring. The UK submarine fleet is coming to the end of its shelf-life and like Polaris before it needs replaced. It doesn't take a genius to realise that a UK navy that was not protected by a submarine fleet would be a sitting duck in any conventional war.

That's not to say that the proposed replacement is the correct option - I do believe that the MoD have had something of a tunnel-visioned view of the replacement - not all options have been explored.

Whilst being a multilateralist and supporting the retainment of Trident missiles I have severe doubts about the proposed replacement for Vanguard. For example, there has been no real attempt to investigate the possibility of extending the shelf-life of Vanguard from the predicted 25 years to an extended 40 years through an extensive update of the combat systems of the boats.

The biggest driving force behind the the proposed replacement has not been political reasons but economic and industrial - the likes of Amicus have been pressing hard as it would give much needed work to UK dockyards and the skilled engineering sector.



190

Los Angeles,

11/11/2008 11:53:17

Thank you, Glenrothes.

By weakening Scotland's negotiating hand we now have, as expected, Brown suggesting he will veto any new powers proposed for the Scottish parliament, and we shall have nuclear power whether we want it or not.

In other words, a Union of equals does not exist.

We have one nation dominating another. Even if an issue, a social policy, was not around to be included or excluded from the Act of Union, if Westminster wants to impose it on Scotland, it will.






191

brownlie,

11/11/2008 11:55:14
212 sm753

Curiously enough, there's a prime example of a previous poster on here doing exactly that. I don't subscribe to the theory that it might have been your good self.
192

Alan B,

11/11/2008 11:58:17
#Rules

"I agree that nuclear power stations are neither necessary nor desirable because safe green options exist; but I disagree with SNP's cak-handedness in this matter (as in so many others)."

Can you explain how the snp have been cak-handed with reguard to nuclear power generation?

The simply said they do not want them just like the lib dems. And have promoted renewables insteand. Jack McConnell was also reported against them but becuase of internal pressure Blair within the labour party deferred a decision.

Given that like yourself the snp did not wnat nuclear what should it have done. It made it perfectly clear in an honest way to the electrate and has kept to that line. Whereas labour have fudged and messed about with the nuclear issue for many yrs.

As such other than the fact you do not like the snp how is it cak-handed.

As i see it this is labour just playing silly bugg3rs again.

193

Vlad Tepes,

Snagov 11/11/2008 12:01:26
Nuclear power stations have always leaked radioactive particles into the surrounding environment, but the nuclear "experts" do not know the exact sources of the leaks and are now unable to clear up the deadly pollutants. Incredibly they have also tried to undermine marine renewables by claiming they might disturb radioactive hot spots. Lets not have any more up here, eh?
194

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

11/11/2008 12:06:17
#222 "We know the facts it is just about a subjective opinion now on the best way forward."

What are the "facts" though Alan?

We see the renewables as being presented as some kind of green alternative when they are far from being green. Equally we see renewables being rubbished by the nuclear lobby because of doubts over generation capabilities.

Greenpeace in response to the Government's 2006 Energy Review said that the UK government had "to recognise that our existing energy system is outdated, fragmented and inherently wasteful". That review was called a "comprehensive" review but was far from being comprehensive.
195

Miss H,

11/11/2008 12:07:57
228 The SNP has not made a song and dance out of anything. They have said we are not having any new nuclear power stations.

You appear to agree with me that there was never really much of a prospect of them being built in Scotland.

So who is posturing? The Scottish Government which says there will be no new nuclear power stations or the UK Government which is huffing and puffing that it might possibly look at reviewing planning powers to prevent the Scottish Government putting a block on something that wasn't going to happen anyway?
196

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

11/11/2008 12:08:27
"I agree that nuclear power stations are neither necessary nor desirable because safe green options exist"

But are the "green" alternatives are actually green?

Many of the so-called "green" alternatives are anything but green and have their own environmental problems:

* Hydroelectric - apart from the fact that reservoirs often cover agriculturally productive, alluvial bottomland, dams alter the existing plant and animal species in the ecosystem. Also within the reservoirs, fluctuations of water levels alter shorelines and cause downstream erosion. Beyond the reservoirs downstream water quality is also reduced affecting both flaura and fauna.

* Wind Power - apart from associated electromagnetic intereference and noise issues, the main environmental criticism is that they reduce the aethetic quality of the area they are located. Because they rely on a high regular windspeed (20kph+) the best locations are often rural sites - often existing beuaty spots because of their location.

* Photovoltaics - the one major environmental problem of photovolataics is the use of toxic chemicals such as cadmium sulfide and gallium arsenide in their manufacture

* Solar Thermal Conversion - because this relies on the use of concentrated saline ponds the risk of salt leeching into the soil is increased. Also many such ponds need toxic chemicals to prevent algae growth.

* Tidal energy - the main environmental consequence of such schemes is that the reduction in tidal flow prevents any pollutants that have been washed off the land being diluted effectively, not to mention issues such as the build up of sediments and rdeuced areas for wildlife such as wading birds.

* Wave energy - apart from being possible navigation hazards, the biggest environmental concern is the actual cabling to tranfer power to shore

To pretend as some do in the green lobby that these methods of energy production are somehow cleaner than tradional power production is dishonest in the extreme
197

Dark Lochnagar,

11/11/2008 12:11:15
Brown is panicking re nuclear fuel because he has realised that we will be held to ransom by Russia soon if he doesn't do something. Scotland has huge renewable power reserves which can be this country's legacy for evermore if we control it ourselves. If he wants nuclear he can build it in London or in Glenrothes with his new pals; if there was a nuclear explosion there, no-one would notice for weeks anyway!
198

Alan B,

11/11/2008 12:11:27
#Rules

"Fact 1. 85% of Scots did NOT support SNP last time. Therefore SNP does NOT reflect Scottish opinion."

You can say that about any party given turn out. unless you are going to make it mandatory to vote then you will always have government who cannot command a majority in a multiparty system when turnout is between 50 and 70%.

With PR it also means the winning party will tend to have a lower percentage of the vote than first past the post as first past the post encourages a 2 party system.

It is interesting that people will go on about the snp share of the vote when they won but seldon mentioned that labour were in the same boat when they won power in the sp. Labour down south even got more seats while losing the popular vote.

So what do you suggest. We scrap democracy via a party political system unless one party can get more than 50% of the electrate?

However more seriously. That is the point of referendums and direct democracy. We would have far more democracy in this country if referendum questions could directly ask the people what they wanted rather than letting parties decide. In the us they attach referendum questions to elections which seems a good idea.

"Fact 2. SNP refuses to take part in the Calman Commission. How can it infuence outcomes if it refuses to participate?"

What is your point? The snp want a referendum on independence. Other parties are not participating in the national conversation does that mean we can just accept the outcoem of that. Off course not.

Calman is to put a join unionist position set up by wendy to give the sp more powers in order to stop the push towards independence. Wendy i think truely supported more powers as do the lib dems.

Brown now has made a mockery of Calman. Remeber he started of that way before backing down. With all his it is a review not a commision stuff.

The question is is Calman really a proper look at the governance of scotland with a view to giving more powers to as we
199

Miss H,

11/11/2008 12:13:30
218 Your thinking does not appear to take into account that Scotland has a very strong comparative advantage in renewable energy.

25% of the EU's wind and tidal capacity I think it is.

When you have an advantage it is logical to look at how you can best exploit that surely?
200

AJM,

11/11/2008 12:14:28
What is clear is no one really wants nuclear north or south of the border, everyone is in favour of them being built elsewhere if they have to be built. There was no chancve of any more till Blair did a turnaround.

However it is bit rich of the SNP supporters to be talking so much about renewables as if that were the entire policy. AS made a big song and dance about geting as many grubby dirty coal power stations built as he could, belching out an enormous amount of CO2. There is nothing clean about coal power stations.

So AS recognises that Scotland cannot at this stage put all its eggs in one basket. However he has gone for dirty coal as opposed to dirty nuclear.
201

Miss H,

11/11/2008 12:20:36
239 Scottish Power will carry out a 12-18 months feasibility study into retrofitting supercritical clean coal, carbon capture ready technology at Longannet and Cockenzie as the best option to safeguard future baseload generation in Scotland beyond 2016.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2007/05/17153202

202

AJM,

11/11/2008 12:20:48
Miss H are you talking about potential rather than delivery over the next decade or so. I am all for renewable energy, however it is largely apart from hydro unproven. Talk of the pentland firth being the next saudia is silly.

I actually think that if you gave people the straight choice between one nuclear power station and the removal of all of the unsightly wind generators then nuclear would win.

As mention SNP are proposing dirty technology, just that it is coal.
203

AJM,

11/11/2008 12:28:43
Miss H from what I have read, clen should not be used to describe it, slughlty less dirty would be more apted. I believe that is is 20% less mucky than a traditional power station.

What the heck does supercritical have to do with it? That a buzz word that the SNP are tagging on that makes no sense? I recall that once turbochargers became common in cars we could get a turbo vacuum cleaner and vice versa when cds arrived. I know look forward to the day that I can get a supercritical vacuum and plasma TV, carbon capture ready.
204

Miss H,

11/11/2008 12:30:14
242 I think pitching the energy debate in terms of windfarms versus nuclear is just wrong. That’s not a choice that we actually have to make. If we did have to make the choice most people would choose windfarms over nuclear every single time. People by and large don’t care about windfarms, the opposition to them comes from a vocal minority and when you dig down many of the professional agitators are vehemently pro-nuclear. There are only a few cases where the opposition has been truly community-wide e.g. the Western Isles. No doubt I will be shot down for saying this but it is the truth. But since that is not actually the choice we are facing, it’s kind of a pointless point!
205

Alan B,

11/11/2008 12:30:50
#The Federalist

Firstly I would say it is better not to use the term green as it does not say anything and means different things to different people as it is a label stuck on.

We are really talking in electricity production about whether we want to do anything about climate change and carbon dioxide emmissions. We then need to look at the alternatives and weigh up the advantages and disadvantages.

How you balance these advantages and disadvantages is subjective. An as such is an opinion. eg Nuclear accidents might be a small risk but it may be enough for some to say no thanks.


What are the options. Remember it is not just about one choice or the other but can be a mix.

1)coal: emits carbon dioxide etc. Carbon capture can help but is a future technology.
2)gas: we already did the dash for gas and now the UK imports it. I think this was daft. Gas should have not been used for electricity but for heating etc.
3)nuclear: been very costly in the past, but cost have come down. Never been run putely commercially and liable to government bail outs. Decommission costs are quite big. People fear consequences of accident even if unlikely. Waste is also seen as an issue, generally as they fear nuclear. Governments have been wrong before about nuclear costs and the public tends not to believe the government because of that. Only a few yrs ago the nuclear company went bust and had to be bailed out. Also we will have to import the raw materials and they too will run out in time. I think the world has something like 70yrs of nuclear stuff.
4)renewables: never given the support in the uk like the subsidisies for coal and nuclear but that has changed. Costs are higher and much of the technology is newer as such technologies are still in their infancy. You have outlined a break down of rewables yourself. There are some issues round windfarms etc visually.

As such it is just for the government to make a decision on the break down of our generation. It is a su
206

AJM,

11/11/2008 12:31:02
Sorry for the typos
207

Alan B,

11/11/2008 12:31:29
...It is a subjective opinion on what is important when weighing up the facts.

In scotland the question comes down to who we want to decide. For me i would far rather the scottish government decides via the scottish parliament as i believe that will mean any decision has the concept of the scottish people and hence is fundamental to democracy.
208

Miss H,

11/11/2008 12:31:59
244 Some over-excited and briefed journos.

It was the Scotsman's sister paper Scotland on Sunday that was given the initial story on the UK response to Calman. And now they have been given this.

But essentially I think we are agreeing. This is nothing but political posturing. It has no substance.
209

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 12:33:06
Leaving aside the nuclear debate - the real argument is about who decides? Can a foreign government retain for itself the right to decide policies in another country? And before all the unionists get their knickers in a twist - by sheer force of numbers Westminster is a de facto English parliament. To argue otherwise is nonsense.
210

Miss H,

11/11/2008 12:33:33
250 Look them up yourself!
211

pwd,

Borders 11/11/2008 12:34:59
*197 and *198

Re nuclear generators - where is the "vast majority"? Remember, 17% is not a majority.
212

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 12:35:15
No commenting on the Herald today - locked up tighter than a nun's ...
213

steve52,

Kinfauns 11/11/2008 12:35:48
This has nothing what so ever to do with the lights going out in Scotland. This has everything to do with the fact Labour are no longer in control in Scotland. Dithering Brown is a control freak and this is his way of using the Libliars and the Conservatives to get his way.

The unionists can argue all they want but at the end of the day this is all about self. ALL MPs siting in Westminster are feart for their cushy life style and jobs the people of Scotland dont matter one bit.

Just look at the lies Labour told in the recent by election in Glenrothes. The people of Fife were too stupid to see through the lies. Care fees are far higher in Glasgow, in the consituances of our new Secretary of State and that of wee Alexander.

The trouble here in Scotland is that there are far too many people happy to sit back and take what is dished out. Self interest and its always been that way.
214

Niall,

Fraserburgh 11/11/2008 12:41:19
sm753,11/11/2008 09:13:04
140
"we have yet to solve the problem of how to safely treat and dispose of it's waste"

It's actually a technical non-issue.

1. Vitrify waste into glass blocks.
2. Place into large, sturdy, bunker.
3. Erect sturdy fence around bunker.
4. Place signs on fence saying, in as many languages as you like: "IF YOU CLIMB THIS FENCE YOU WILL DIE."

Sorry old son to pour rain on your party but the reality is somewhat different. Some nuclear wastes have a half life of 236,000 years so something that is emitting 1,000 rads per hour (Lethal dose) will still be emitting 500 rads per hour in another 236,000 years and 250 Rads 236,000 years after that.

Point 1 Vitrified glass will break down and decompose in around 25,000 years what then? The radioactive waste will then leak out and pollute the groundwater.

Point 2. You can place the waste into a sturdy bunker 1 km below the ground, see DEFRA for the plans and the 26 locations earmarked for nuclear waste in Scotland. The trouble dear boy is tectonics and earth movements.

Point 3. Erect sturdy fence around bunker. Yes and who is going to maintain it for millenia to come?

Point 4 Put up signs. See note 3 above.

No Nuclear power station is completely safe, they are constructed by man and men are fallible therefore the risk exists that an accident like Chernobyl can happen and statistically will happen at some time in the future. I like most Scots am implacably opposed to Nuclear power and I will be one of the first sitting in the middle of the road when the first construction vehicles roll into sight.

If Gordon Brown and his Cabinet think they will get away with imposing Nuclear Power stations on Scotland then they have another think coming. In fact if he does impose them then he will have lit the fuse that blasts this union apart forever.

'S mise le meas
Niall.
215

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

11/11/2008 12:41:20
#247 "What are the options. Remember it is not just about one choice or the other but can be a mix."

That's the very point I am making. The problem is though that both governments are making it a choice of one option versus another. I don't honestly believe that either has made a serious appraisal of the pros and cons of different generation methods - that they are taking a very subjective view of energy policy as opposed to an objective view.

My own thoughts are that policy needs to be framed to consider all alternatives not just the preferred options that either Holyrood or Westminster wants. Moreover, it seems that little consideration is given to there being a policy for the short-term versus the long-term.
216

Yr Awel,

Here & There 11/11/2008 12:42:20
129 Linda

If Scotland is a nation, then why the profound disagreement over what matters most for any nation, namely its future? (the SNP shuld know, I expect)
Surely when you say 'our affairs', that cannot have the starightforward meaning you seem to suggest.
I am personally very happy to belong to at least three 'nations', which to me are just one... (so no one can possibly call me an outsider with all the unfortunate consequences).
217

Alan B,

11/11/2008 12:43:55
#sm753

Putting aside what energy policy you want for a moment. What is the advantage of letting Wesminster decide Scotlands energy policy make up rather than the scottish parliament.

Surely allowing the scottish parliament to decide is more in keeping with democracy as it will have the concent of the people of scotland.

Part of the reason for the scottish parliament was during the 80s labour kept telling us the tories putting nuclear in scotland was a result of the tories being anti scottish.

The only reason i can see why you want westminster to decide scotland electricity make up is:
1)you will support anything labour says if it different from the snp
2)your contempt for the scottish parliament: you have previously posted that the scottihs parliament is full of numpties and scotland needs an english dominated parliament to take proper decisions.
3)you think giving the scottish people the say via its parliament will not come to the conclusion you want and as such are quite happy to circumvent democracy.
218

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

11/11/2008 12:45:40
#238 Scotland may have the capacity but is that capacity actually achievable without creating other environmental problems?

I honestly have doubts.
219

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 11/11/2008 12:47:08
#259

25,000 years ago we could not build a fire and your arguement against nuclear power is what happens to it in 25,000 years. me thinks we may have worked it out by then.
220

AJM,

11/11/2008 12:50:36
Miss H my point is that go back 40 yrs and nuclear was seen as the clean future of energy. Now forward to Wind and there are serious questions surfacing about the financial support given to the industry so that it will never make a penny for us, but blight the landscape.

What I think is the serious point is that we do not have a coherent policy on energy in this country it is still peace meal, France went nuclear and is clearly getting the rewards at this moment.

AS will not deliver a sensible policy because he rules some things out on his personal believes, not might be best for the country and then grabs any headline with the new technologies that are yet to work. UK government is not much better.

The key is to reduce demand, so rather then paying for an expensive studies enabling photo shoots of AS shaking hands with a leader of an industry, provide easy to understand grants to help people reduce their demand.

As someone who is trying to do just that it is depressing to find out that the procedure for the scottish rural devlopmentis a real nightmare. Not my words but someone in the business.

Few votes for AS in loft insulation so ignores it or makes it hard for folk to get any money.
221

Yeah1,

11/11/2008 12:51:14
#127 'A Better Way'

"I personally wouldnt have the slightest problem in raising funding for the Scottish answer to the armed struggle that many former Colonies had to resort too."

Are you seriously suggesting that Scotland should begin an armed struggle against the UK?

Even suggesting anything resembling that makes you and your views completely invalid and ridiculous.

What if, for example, there is a referendum and the people of Scotland vote 'no' to independence? Would you go against Scotland's democratic wishes by 'raising funding' for an 'armed struggle'?

There are many independence supporters on these boards but surely none of them are as warped and extremist as you.
222

Shamus,

Glasgow 11/11/2008 12:51:55
Perhaps people that live in the areas that the proposed Stns are to be built are given a vote on the issue. The loud mouth anti-nuclear lot seem to have their way claiming they have the support of the majority population. Lets put that to the test.
223

MacMhuirich,

Ljubljana 11/11/2008 12:53:11
#Alan B

I actually agree with your points on referenda and energy.

The UK as whole still needs a coherent energy policy. Even in the event of independence, Scotland and England will be in a linked energy market and be exposed to the environmental risk of the other's nuclear power stations.
224

Jay Kay,

11/11/2008 12:55:17
Apart from a few maniacs who happen to be pro union ( I personally think Rufus and his crew need special help if you know what I mean) I would say to building Nuclear power stations in Scotland, aye that will be the fOOkin day my shiney bright old chum, not on your nelly mate, look its simple Battersea is a crumbling old wreck, knock the b*stard down and Build one of your so called safe nuclear stations there and while your at is keep all your waste it produces to yourself in London thanks.

Nuclear power, its like playing Russian Roulette with six rounds in the chamber ffs.

I will continue to vote for any government that blocks Westmonster at every turn long may they continue to do so over this utter disgrace.

Dumping ground Scotland thats what broons ultimate plans for us are. Was he bullied at school or something?

Hey spook whats that your in the James Watt Building? HWU by any chance?
225

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

11/11/2008 12:58:05
#263 There is another reason for not devolving Energy Policy.

I actually believe it is an area where a pan-European policy might actually be more appropriate - especially in light of the environmental disasters of other countries' environmental policies - Chernobyl, acid rain spring instantly to mind.
226

Alan B,

11/11/2008 12:58:34
#260 The Federalist

"I don't honestly believe that either has made a serious appraisal of the pros and cons of different generation methods"

I think they have they just have reached their conclusions based on their own opinions.

I am not particularly anti nuclear. But i can understand that others are. And as such the disadvantages of nuclear rightly or wrongly outweighs any benefits.

For the lib dems and the snp (and even maybe Cameron) they have decided against nuclear. I have no reason to think that is not based on what they feel is a weighing up the facts as they see them. Even McConnel was reported against.

Labour have come to another conclusion in westminster. I personally have abit of difficulty understanding labour. As they were so against nuclear in opposition. With now other alternatives they have done a uturn which i do not quite understand.

However i can understand the decision as nuclear is not a political issue in england as it is in scotland and england have less scope for renewables. The scottish government wants to promote rewables not just as an energy generation method but as an industry which scotland can try to lead in. Niching the economy.

The question therefore is who should decide. For me if you support the concept of devolution then the scottish parliament should decide. ie there is not good reason to take the decision centrally.

I also think it is important democratically to get the concept of the people for a decision and that means taking the decision within the scottish parliament. I cannot be bothered with the anti english feeling generated by labour in the 80s when they kept telling us the tories (and hence the english) where vindictive to us by forcing us to take nuclear when their own nuclear make up was alot less proportionally.

My own view has changed abit. I used to be quite be pro nuclear as part of the mix. ie if renewables was 50% then nuclear could be 40%. But i have changed somewhat. I think that b
227

Alan B,

11/11/2008 12:59:13
...
I think that both nuclear and rewnewables have additional costs and i think scotland should therefore choose one. ie supporting 2 technologies could be 2 expensive to scotland. And i do think there is scope for scotland to create an energy industry round renewables.

But the question is. Why is Brown so interested in not letting the scottish parliament chose its energy make up. Of all the issues this seems bizzare. England is hardly bothered what scotland do here. They are much more bothered by issues round scottish mps voting on english only matters.
228

Alan B,

11/11/2008 12:59:20
...
I think that both nuclear and rewnewables have additional costs and i think scotland should therefore choose one. ie supporting 2 technologies could be 2 expensive to scotland. And i do think there is scope for scotland to create an energy industry round renewables.

But the question is. Why is Brown so interested in not letting the scottish parliament chose its energy make up. Of all the issues this seems bizzare. England is hardly bothered what scotland do here. They are much more bothered by issues round scottish mps voting on english only matters.
229

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 13:00:35
From Wikipedia:

Links with nuclear power industry
A link was reported between Brown's brother Andrew and one of the main nuclear lobbyists, EDF Energy,[59] given the finding that the government did not carry a proper public consultation on the use of nuclear power in its 2006 Energy Review.[60] Attention has also been drawn to the fact[61] that the father-in-law of Brown's closest adviser Ed Balls, Tony Cooper (father of the Labour minister Yvette Cooper) has close links with the nuclear industry. Cooper was described as an "articulate, persuasive and well-informed advocate of nuclear power over the last ten years" by the Nuclear Industry Association on his appointment as Chairman of the British Nuclear Industry Forum in June 2002. He is also a member of the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority and was appointed to the Energy Advisory Panel by the previous Conservative administration.[62]
230

Steve,

11/11/2008 13:06:52
Scotland actually exports energy to England, and is pursuing a renewable power agenda. Scotland is totally against nuclear as an option.

If the English want nuclear power, let them build their own nuclear plants. Anyone who fails to see the logic in this argument is either English, or a traitor to the Scottish people.
231

Alan B,

11/11/2008 13:07:39
#The Federalist

"I actually believe it is an area where a pan-European policy might actually be more appropriate - especially in light of the environmental disasters of other countries' environmental policies - Chernobyl, acid rain spring instantly to mind."

I think having EU standard is a good thing but i do not think we will have a single energy policy. ie single standards of safety for nuclear would make a good idea.

I also think having EU standards round coal plant emmissions would be a good idea. Or round carbon capture. Carbon trading schemes can be used to this end.

But cannot see the EU having a single energy policy. It is too political and the EU are in a mess with the lisbon treaty.

If the eu was going to have a single energy policy it would probably be via cost and the single market. As such all nuclear would have to be on a commerical basis and could thefore not go ahead. eg make provision for future cleanup costs. Would france dismantle them.

Would other anti nuclear eu countries agree. I do not think so.

As such have EU standards over energy over emmissions and safety would be fine but that is as far as it will and should go.

As such a devolved scottish energy policy so the scottish parliament can decide if it wants nuclear is the best way forward.
232

brownlie,

11/11/2008 13:09:28
268 Shamus

Okay, let's put it to the test. How many of the pro-nuclear posters on this site would, honestly, be happy to live next to a nuclear site or would be happy to let their children play near a nuclear site.

My vote would be definitely not.
233

Calum Crubag,

11/11/2008 13:09:28
London Labour forcing expensive and dangerous nuclear power on us would be a massive vote winner for the SNP.

Scotland as a small nation with excellent natural resources, more than most similar small nations, exports power.

These proposals might just push the Scots to independence.
234

ricky40,

11/11/2008 13:13:55
279 Brownlie

As a first-time poster on hear my vote would also be no.
235

Miss H,

11/11/2008 13:14:33
266 You are doing the same thing here of polarising things between electricity generated by nuclear or by windpower.

That’s not the choices we are faced with - although it is how debate is presented in the media. Renewable energy does not equal simply onshore wind. And the debate about how we meet our future energy needs is much much bigger than simply how we generate electricity. How many people do you know who heat their homes with electricity?

I strongly suggest you actually read up on the Scottish Government’s policies and what it is actually doing, which might surprise you. Everybody recognises the importance of microgeneration and energy efficiency. That is what is being pushed in Scotland.
236

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

11/11/2008 13:16:44
#275 From the BBC:

"The trade unions has also been crucial, with the GMB and TGWU being particularly active in pushing the pro-nuclear case. Five trade unions have also banded together to fund a nuclear workers' lobby group, Nuklear21, to push the case for new nuclear plants."

237

Alan B,

11/11/2008 13:17:30
The real reason Brown is going down this route is he is terrified of Cameron.

If Cameron comes out before the next election as anti nuclear and plays the card of scottish mps and a scottish prime minister putting nuclear plants in the south of england when he cannot do the same in scotland.

Even if Cameron doesn't do it some of the london media could easily run with this story.

This is about dropping the brown stuff on scotland for browns own electral advantage.
238

Miss H,

11/11/2008 13:20:29
278 Story published on Sunday (Scotland on Sunday geddit?). Paper published on Monday.

Having researched this carefully I can reveal that Sunday comes before Monday.

239

Alan B,

11/11/2008 13:21:54
#Miss H

"Having researched this carefully I can reveal that Sunday comes before Monday."

Don't confuse him.
240

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

11/11/2008 13:22:45
#280 "These proposals might just push the Scots to independence."

Wishful thinking on your part - I don't believe that this issue is going to affect the majority of voters' opinion on independence either way. The only people who get worked up about this are those who work in the nuclear industry or the rabid bean-munchers.

The sad fact is that most voters could not give a two hoots about who controls energy policy or how it is generated - all they care about is that they get their energy and at a cheap price.
241

piehutt,

Greenock 11/11/2008 13:25:49
This is a total outrage.
We don't like what the democratically elected Scottish Parliament believe so we'll try and make some loopholes in the law to get round it.
Despite the fact there is a firm commitment to green energy among MSP's and they are not just opposing this for oppositions sake.
242

Luke Skywalker,

United Kingdom 11/11/2008 13:30:04
Thank you 283. For the first time in my life I agree with trades unions. They are pushing the nuclear option. When it eventually comes, I don't want to spend my retirement in the dark and cold. Please ensure there is UK or Scottish electricity for me. How many accidents causing loos of life have there been at nucleur power stations or on the railways that carry the spent fuel the length and breadth of the UK?
Properly regulated nuclear power stations are safe.
243

Miss H,

11/11/2008 13:41:22
286 I was actually replying to 266 AJM.

The promotion of renewable energy and energy efficiency is devolved.

The budget is reserved yes – as with everything else Westminster controls the purse strings – but policy is devolved.
244

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 11/11/2008 13:53:32
Now that Broon is an "International Statesman" (self-defined) he seems to think he get away with anything.

BTW why can't we comment on stories like this in the Glasgay Herald?
245

Stuntman Mike,

11/11/2008 13:57:40
Can any Nationalist explain to me exactly what their objection is to nuclear power? Activists such as Bob Geldof support it as a safe, cost efficient and environmentally friendly alternative to other sources of energy and I just can't fathom why the issue is almost as totemic to the Nationalists as the separation policy (another dog of a policy which they really ought to ditch, while we're on the subject). I just can't fathom the Nationalists at all.
246

brownlie,

11/11/2008 14:02:50
298 Stunt

Perhaps you would answer "yes" to my question at 279? None of the other pro-nuclear posters seem able to do so.
247

sigholm,

ayrshire 11/11/2008 14:06:10
The English want to impose nuclear plants on Scotland for one reason only,They require space to DUMP their muck!
NO nuclear waste in a nuclear free Scotland.
How will you explain to the English, Gordon- that you will require to dump the muck on Epsom Downs or in Hyde Park, maybe. That'll certainly make your jaw DROP.
248

PockSuppet,

11/11/2008 14:08:17
#299,

I live between a Nuclear power station and a community wind farm. It's great!

I see 4 posts have self-vapourised again.
249

brownlie,

11/11/2008 14:11:04
301 Pocksuppet

I rest my case.
250

Rufus T. Firefly,

11/11/2008 14:12:43
"300 sigholm,ayrshire 11/11/2008 14:06:10
The English want to impose nuclear plants on Scotland for one reason only,They require space to DUMP their muck!"

What they dump the nuclear waste in the power plant?
251

Reiver,

Galashiels 11/11/2008 14:16:14
#18 interesting point ... the most interesting point is that this is simply no different to the Scottish Executive over-riding the local planning laws when our natural heritage is given priority over projects like the Donald Trumph golf course and hotel complex.

What is good for the goose as they say ...
252

PockSuppet,

11/11/2008 14:17:27
That was funny!
253

Rufus T. Firefly,

11/11/2008 14:17:42
"279 brownlie,11/11/2008 13:09:28

Okay, let's put it to the test. How many of the pro-nuclear posters on this site would, honestly, be happy to live next to a nuclear site or would be happy to let their children play near a nuclear site."

I agree Brownlie, my vote would be definitely not as well.

Okay, another test. How many of the anti-nuclear posters on this site would, honestly, be happy to live next to an electricity pylon with the accompanying cables overhead or to let their children play next and/or under them?

My vote would be definitely not.
254

Alan B,

11/11/2008 14:17:45
#Stuntman Mike

Consider also that the lib dems are against it. The last labour /lib dem coalition were apprarently against it (Jack Mcconnell was against it). Labour until more recently was against nuclear. The current tory leader Cameron is also said not to be convinced by it. eg his own report into nuclear came out against it somewhat.

Also why is Brown interfering in this issue? Why not let the scottish parliament continue to make the choice?
255

Reiver,

Galashiels 11/11/2008 14:21:24
#280 ... maybe Historic Scotland will let all of these rabid Scots you mention re-settle St. Kilda ... lets face it, there won't be too many of them and if they really want independence ... just not in my back yard :)
256

Yeah1,

11/11/2008 14:34:01
#300

"NO nuclear waste in a nuclear free Scotland.
How will you explain to the English, Gordon- that you will require to dump the muck on Epsom Downs or in Hyde Park, maybe."

This isn't about dumping nuclear waste, its about building nuclear power stations.

But anyway, obviously nuclear waste isn't going to be dumped on Epsom Downs or Hyde Park is it, just as it won't be dumped in Loch Ness or Arthur's Seat.
257

Miss H,

11/11/2008 14:37:25
298 We don’t need nuclear, it is expensive and leaves a legacy of dangerous waste.

In contrast, Scotland has a strong comparative advantage with renewable energy – 25% of the EU’s wind and tidal capacity I think.

Makes sense (in economic as well as environmental terms) to exploit our renewables potential, be on the cutting edge of r&d and as a bonus it can also provide jobs and investment in remote and rural areas.

Long term, renewables can fill the hole left by oil when the oil has run out.

Not just the SNP that thinks this - as AlanB has pointed out so do Lib Dems, Greens and many Labour MSPs.
258

The Strategist,

11/11/2008 14:39:21
Tidal energy? Because of the lousy levels of investment both by Govt and our glorious financial services industry it's quite likely Scotland has already lost the advantage... Scottish Power - a Spanish company - has done a deal with Hammerfest Voss - a Norwegian company - to build their tidal turbines.

Be proud people be very proud .. Our lousy Labour Govt and their masters in the City have screwed us again..
259

You can stick your independence up your a***!!,

11/11/2008 14:40:09
They are oppositionalists for the sake of it.

If Brown opposed nuclear power they would oppose him because he was supporting Scottish job losses.

The SNP's be all things to all men strategy does not stand up to scrutiny as the wise voters of Glenrothes realised.
260

Stuntman Mike,

11/11/2008 14:44:43
#299 brownlie: I'm unable to answer "yes" to your question: you've got me, but I would qualify this by saying that I would have no qualms if I'd been brought up in the vicinity of a nuclear power station and had strong local roots in the area.

Particularly in the light of modern technology, I would not be seeking to move away, put it that way.
261

Lianachan,

Highlands 11/11/2008 14:54:24
#279 - It's a yes from me. Perfectly happy.
262

,

11/11/2008 14:54:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
263

Scottish nationalist,

PAISLEY 11/11/2008 14:57:55
Dear Gordon'
Scotland doesn't want any new nuclear stations here, at least the Scottish Parliament is unanimous on this issue.
And for that 'Calman commission' what a load of rubbish!!!!
If you want proper research done you should take an impartial view.The thing that is wrong with London based research is that it will always be in the best interests of central government and not Scotland, the devolution settlement should not remain stagnent it should be taken forward for the good of Scotland. This stinks of elitism, it's time for Scotland to have more control over it's affairs not less.
264

,

11/11/2008 14:57:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
265

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 15:00:08
Resist Globalization.

Say No to the New World Order.
266

Lianachan,

Highlands 11/11/2008 15:07:04
#298, #315, etc...

Not all of your "Nationalists" are anti-nuclear. If only the world was as black and white and simple as you seem to think it is. I'd probably count as one of your "Nationalists", since I want an independent Scotland, but I am otherwise in disagreement with the SNP about a few things and I am extremely pro-nuclear. I doubt I'm the only one.
267

John S,

11/11/2008 15:09:36
Note it is 3:10pm and Scotland is exporting 1883MW to England.
System Transfers
N.Ireland to Great Britain: 80MW
France to Great Britain : 2002MW
North-South: 7849MW
Scot - Eng: 1853MW
11/11/2008 15:10:00 GMT
268

Stuntman Mike,

11/11/2008 15:12:11
#305: but nuclear's environmentally friendly and the nuclear waste is safely contained by modern technology (indeed, the problem of the waste can only lessen as further advances are made over time). I repeat: what is it with you Nats and nuclear?
269

Lianachan,

Highlands 11/11/2008 15:15:13
I wish they wouldn't remove posts, it screws up the numbering.

Stuntman Mike - the following comment of mine, posted a few mins ago, was addressed to you (among others):

Not all of your "Nationalists" are anti-nuclear. If only the world was as black and white and simple as you seem to think it is. I'd probably count as one of your "Nationalists", since I want an independent Scotland, but I am otherwise in disagreement with the SNP about a few things and I am extremely pro-nuclear. I doubt I'm the only one.
270

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 15:17:00
319 - Stuntman Mike, 11/11/2008 15:12:11 asks;

"what is it with you Nats and nuclear?"

What is it with you British Empire Loyalists and nuclear?
271

Miss H,

11/11/2008 15:17:43
307 Rubbish. The SNP has opposed nuclear power for as long as I have been a member because it is simply not necessary in Scotland.

If we had no other way of generating enough electricity to meet our own needs then maybe nuclear would be the answer. But seeing as how we are rolling in energy resources it is not, and we do not need it.

It couldn't be simpler.

Even a unionist should be able to grasp that. Nobody in the SNP objects to GB buolding as many nuclear power stations as he likes down south so we are not opposing him for the sake of opposition.

The Scottish Govt is simply acting within its powers and carrying forward the position taken by its predecessor the Labour/Lib Dem administration.


272

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 15:18:45
321 - Lianachan, Highlands 11/11/2008 15:15:13

See:

318 - John S, 11/11/2008 15:09:36

273

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 15:20:10
321 - Lianachan, Highlands 11/11/2008 15:15:13

See:

318 - John S, 11/11/2008 15:09:36

274

Miss H,

11/11/2008 15:21:23
319 Perhaps nuclear waste can be safely produced and contained as you argue - at a cost of what is it now? £73 billion and rising?

We will be paying that off for a long time.



275

Rufus T. Firefly,

11/11/2008 15:21:33
"318 John S,11/11/2008 15:09:36
11/11/2008 15:10:00 GMT
Note it is 3:10pm and Scotland is exporting 1883MW to England.
System Transfers
N.Ireland to Great Britain: 80MW
France to Great Britain : 2002MW
North-South: 7849MW
Scot - Eng: 1853MW"

And none of it comes from nuclear does it?
276

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 15:26:05
323 - Miss H, 11/11/2008 15:17:43

"Nobody in the SNP objects to GB buolding as many nuclear power stations as he likes down south so we are not opposing him for the sake of opposition."

Actually ... and not solely for the sake of opposition. Nuclear is a nasty, dangerous, expensive technology. In the event of a nuclear accident the effects will not stop at the border. So yes - I am opposed to nuclear energy anywhere. That's why, as a nationalist, I am quite relaxed about Scotland supplying England with massive quantities of electricity generated by our renewables.
277

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 15:27:56
330 - Rufus T. Firefly, 11/11/2008 15:21:33

A contentious spirit - best ignored.
278

John S,

11/11/2008 15:30:30
#330 Rufus T. Firefly, this shows that Scotland has an over capacity so that it can export the 1853MW so why do we need more capacity so we can export more ?
Torness (1200MW)usually exports electricity.
Question why was Torness and Hunterston nuclear power stations built ?
279

Lianachan,

Highlands 11/11/2008 15:34:53
#331 I would cheerfully live next to a nuclear power station. Discussion about Windscale is irrelevant - do you really not think the technology has moved on in 50 years? A modern, new nuclear power station is nothing whatsoever like Windscale (which was built to produce material for weapons anyway, not power).
280

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 15:37:18
LIMERICK NUCLEAR REACTOR EMISSIONS
AND THE POTENTIAL LINK TO LOCAL CANCER RATES

1. Limerick History and Percent Time in Operation
The Limerick nuclear power plant consists of two reactors. Both were announced by the PECO company in 1969; but because of construction delays and public opposition, much time elapsed before the plant began producing electricity. Limerick Unit 1 achieved initial criticality (began producing nuclear power, at limited capacity) on December 22, 1984, while Limerick Unit 2 went critical on August 1, 1989. Each has a license to operate for 40 years from the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC).

In their first years of operation, the Limerick reactors were closed fairly frequently due to mechanical problems. But from 1999-2005, the reactors were operational 96.7% and 96.3% of the time, according to the NRC (data through February 2005). While the economic benefits of high operating rates are clear, the question of whether running aging reactors more of the time is also raised.

2. Philadelphia Region Has Most Reactors in U.S.
The Limerick plant lies about 21 miles northwest of central Philadelphia. But 13 nuclear reactors are within 90 miles of the city (see Table 1). The Philadelphia area has the largest concentration of nuclear reactors in the U.S., along with northern Illinois.

3. Environmental Levels of Radiation
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency measures levels of radioactivity in the air, water, precipitation, and milk in various stations around the U.S. The station closest to Limerick is Wilmington DE, about 30 miles to the southeast. One measure that approximates total radioactivity is gross beta in precipitation, measured each month. Gross beta refers to all radioactive chemicals that emit beta particles vs. alpha particles or gamma rays.

During the 1990s, the average concentration in gross beta in Wilmington was 2.11 picocuries per liter of precipitation. But in the period 2000-2003, the average had risen t
281

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 15:38:16
During the 1990s, the average concentration in gross beta in Wilmington was 2.11 picocuries per liter of precipitation. But in the period 2000-2003, the average had risen to 2.43 picocuries. Thus, environmental radioactivity in precipitation rose 15.2% from the 1990s to the 2000s, and the question of whether additional radioactivity from operating reactors more frequently is raised.

4. In-Body Levels of Radiation
In 1998, the Radiation and Public Health Project (RPHP), a professional research group, began the only large-scale program measuring radioactivity levels in the bodies of persons living near nuclear reactors. The Tooth Fairy Project was designed to collect baby teeth and measure concentrations of Strontium-90, a chemical produced only in nuclear weapons and reactors. The study was structured similar to a 1960s study by Washington University in St. Louis, measuring Sr-90 levels in teeth from atomic bomb test fallout.

RPHP has collected and tested over 4,400 baby teeth, and has published its findings in four medical journals. Most teeth are from areas near seven nuclear plants in six states, including Limerick. Pennsylvania residents donated 150 teeth to the study. To date, Pennsylvania has the highest Sr-90 levels in baby teeth of any state, and the Limerick area has the highest Sr-90 levels near any nuclear plant.

Other important findings include a rise of 26.2% in average Sr-90 concentration in the baby teeth of children living in Berks, Chester, and Montgomery Counties (closest to Limerick) from 1986-91 to 1992-96. The rise in Sr-90 in baby teeth correspond to the period of greater use of the aging Limerick reactors, and higher local levels of environmental radiation.

Average Sr-90 levels also vary by distance from Limerick. Children in Pottstown had an average level of 5.70 picocuries of Sr-90 per gram of calcium, compared to 4.21 in the rest of the tri-county area, and 3.27 in the Philadelphia region (Table 2). Still, the 19 teeth from Phil
282

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 15:39:42
Average Sr-90 levels also vary by distance from Limerick. Children in Pottstown had an average level of 5.70 picocuries of Sr-90 per gram of calcium, compared to 4.21 in the rest of the tri-county area, and 3.27 in the Philadelphia region (Table 2). Still, the 19 teeth from Philadelphia children were comparable to areas near reactors in other states.

* Average picocuries of Strontium-90 per gram of calcium at birth. Excludes 3 teeth from children with cancer; 12 teeth for which an accurate measurement could not be made; and 6 teeth from children born before 1980. Source: Radiation and Public Health Project.

5. Increases in Cancer Rates in Local Children After Limerick Startup
Even though radiation exposure affects all humans, it is most harmful to the developing fetus, infant, and small child. Cells divide more rapidly early in life, and a cell damaged by radiation is more likely to duplicate in a fetus, infant, or child. In addition, the immune system is still underdeveloped in early stages of growth.

Previous studies in radiated populations show that children can begin to develop additional cancers several years after exposure. Thus, an examination of childhood cancer rates near Limerick before and after the plant began operations is in order. Table 3 compares cancer death rates for children under age 15 for 1984-1990 and 1991-2002. Childhood cancer mortality increased in both Montgomery and Philadelphia counties for leukemia (16.0% and 46.4%) and all cancers (48.0% and 22.3%). During the same period, national rates of childhood cancer deaths dropped sharply, making these findings significant. Childhood cancer in the two counties went from below to well above national rates after Limerick startup.
283

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 15:40:34
Cancer incidence in children under 15 can also be tracked beginning in the early years of Limerick operation. Since the late 1980s, both Montgomery and Philadelphia County cancer rates have only increased minimally (up 4.5% and 2.2%, respectively). But rises in leukemia incidence has soared 27.7% and 47.5%, compared to a national decline of 0.7% (Table 4).
284

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 15:41:14
6. Philadelphia Cancer Death Rate Highest of 60 Most Populated Counties
In addition to children, adults can be harmed by radiation exposures like emissions from nuclear plants. While the lag between exposure and cancer may take decades in adults, it is useful to examine local cancer rates. For the most recent period (1999-2002, or nearly two decades since Limerick began operations), the total cancer death rate for Philadelphia County was compared with rates for the 60 most populated counties in the U.S., all of which had at least 790,000 residents as of July 1, 2003. A total of 95,857,114 persons, or about one-third of all Americans, live in these areas.

Table 5 shows that of the 60 most populated counties, Philadelphia has the highest cancer death rate from 1999-2002. It ranks highest for whites, and third highest for blacks. Its rate of 254.9 deaths per 100,000 persons is 26% higher than the U.S. rate. Table 6 and 7 show that for each age group in whites and blacks, the Philadelphia cancer death rate exceeds the national rate. While radiation exposure may be only one factor in these patterns, it nonetheless should be considered as a potential contributor.
285

Miss H,

11/11/2008 15:41:24
332 Personally you may. But the SNP does not say that the UK should not have nuclear power or indeed nuclear weapons. When we are independent we will no longer be part of the UK and have no more right to try and interfere in their decision-making than they will have to interfere in ours.

(Of course it is likely that independence will help bring about the end of the UK's nuclear weapons programme but that will be a side effect not the aim of SNP policy).
286

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 15:42:21
LIMERICK NUCLEAR REACTOR EMISSIONS
AND THE POTENTIAL LINK TO LOCAL CANCER RATES

tinyurl.com/5omeoq
287

John S,

11/11/2008 15:42:41
#330/335:RFT.I can take it you do not know the answer as to why Torness and Hunterston nuclear power stations were built ? Hint it wasn't because of the projected demand for electricity within Scotland.
288

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 15:47:29
343 - Miss H, 11/11/2008 15:41:24

As I've said to you once before Miss H - I speak only for myself. Being independent does not preclude a nation having a view regarding dangerous practices of a neighbouring state. I think it would be the friendly thing to do - offering our English cousins a safe alternative to nuclear.
289

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 15:49:43
Research | Children's Health

Childhood Leukemia in the Vicinity of the Geesthacht Nuclear Establishments near Hamburg, Germany

tinyurl.com/6dad72
290

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 15:50:57
Childhood leukemia in Germany: cluster identified near nuclear power plant

tinyurl.com/5rslcm
291

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 15:54:49
Leukemia, Lymphomas, and Myeloma Mortality in the Vicinity of Nuclear Power Plants and Nuclear Fuel Facilities in Spain

tinyurl.com/64vf7k
292

Rufus T. Firefly,

11/11/2008 15:57:57
"335 John S,11/11/2008 15:30:30

Question why was Torness and Hunterston nuclear power stations built ?"

John I would guess they were built to provide electricity to the UK.

Is that correct?
293

Warden An' All, Reborn,

11/11/2008 15:59:33
Mike Partick-From what I read, or should I say the lack of it on your part, the tongue in cheek you were referring to is much in evidence from the way you misspelt simply, as it would have probably come out as “simly” if you had placed said tongue in said cheek. Do people actually wait for a lobotomy or are they given one against their will? Me I’m in line after everyone else.


Miss H-I’d hate to contradict your slant on reality, but this civil war you predict in the Scottish labour party, would that be down to arguments to whose turn it is to pay for the celebratory drink after the glenrothes victory.





Lianachan-scots is a dialect of old English yes, which at one time reached as far south as Lincolnshire, no misconception still an English dialect, age has little to do with it but its origin. English and Gaelic are both from the Indo-European grouping of languages and much to do with the people where the origins of my name come from. The cultural differences between these peoples are minimal, with just as many differences from area to area in gaelic speaking areas.




Hen Broon-It can be strange just how wrong people can be, history is just that, you don’t get away from it that easily, together we have been Great Britain an imperialist state. Do you really believe we wouldn’t similar sums of money under independence, if you don’t what evidence have you? We have enough electricity because of nuclear power, but our plants need renewing and that will cost. Moral fibre intelligence and character hasn’t helped us so far.
294

An Beal Bacht,

11/11/2008 16:01:58
S.C. researchers find more leukemia in children, young people near nukes

A new study by researchers at the Medical University of South Carolina has found elevated rates of leukemia among children and young people living near nuclear facilities.

The findings raise important questions about the push to expand the U.S. nuclear power industry. There are currently plans (PDF) to build new reactors across the nation and the South, including Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina and Virginia.

The MUSC researchers conducted a meta-analysis of 17 research papers covering 136 nuclear sites in the United States, United Kingdom, Spain, Japan, Germany and France. They found that leukemia death rates for children up to the age of 9 were elevated by between 5 and 24 percent, depending on their proximity to nuclear facilities, and by 2 to 18 percent in children and young people up to the age of 25. They also found that leukemia incidence rates were increased among those living near nuclear facilities by 14 to 21 percent in children up to age 9, and by 7 to 10 percent for those up to age 25.

tinyurl.com/6ysq6g
295

A Clamper,

Edinburgh 11/11/2008 16:03:11
Nuclear Power - Nae chance, beat it !
296

IainGlasgow,

11/11/2008 16:10:46
We have more than enough renewal energy potential in Scotland to cater for our electricity needs. There is absolutely no need for a new generation of nuclear reactors.

We have massive renewable energy potential here, enough on which to build an entire industry and trailblazing expertise making Scotland a Global centre of excellence in renewables (on a scale to rival the oil industry and our lost semiconductors and heavy engineering sectors) that can help other nations to develop their own power technologies. The opportunities for knowledge transfer and university spin out companies is enormous. The There is no pioneering opportunity for Scotland in nuclear. I guess that is what Gordon Brown fears most.

The Scottish Government is opposed to new nuclear

The Scottish Parliament is opposed to new nuclear

The Scottish Public are opposed to new nuclear


By the time this policy comes to be looked at in earnest we may also be about to vote in an independence referendum.

If the UK Government does take away Holyrood's veto on this then I urge all workers in Scotland to go on a national strike. This is an absolute scandal.
297

TAF,

USA 11/11/2008 16:19:24
Mikey at 118 writes "Let Labour try and reduce the power of the SP! You want a fight, then, by God, we'll give you one!"

A fight? With what? Ballots? That's how you got where you are. Guns? Oops, you voluntarily gave them up. I know, military weapons...wait, you want to ban all of them from your 'country'; you certainly have no control over those already on your soil. Pity that, having your chance of freedom at the whim of the English (history repeats endlessly if you don't learn the first time).

That said, I sincerely hope Scotland does gain her independence (I really mean that). Any additional gains for freedom would be welcome in the world; lord knows we're losing ground elsewhere.

It will also be a pleasure watching the cold wave of reality wash over you folks, as you discover that your lefty feel good notions don't stand up to the real world. Scots seem to me to be very practical people; once you're on your own, I imagine a solid conservative nation with lots of nuclear power plants (to sell power to the south), your own nuclear submarines and surface ships (to protect your fishing and export industries), and a top notch industrial base making all sorts of interesting products for export. Like nuclear submarines and surface ships for England.

James Watt would be proud of where you can go if you only try.

298

brownlie,

11/11/2008 16:22:59
300 Rufus

Congratulations on achieving 300 - your most notable achievement up to date.

No thanks to the electric pylons, I would rather they were buried underground.

However, if push came to shove I'd prefer the pylon to being nuked.

Failing that I'd resort to the cruisie.

I was interested in the posting from Gala regarding St Kilda. If there was a nuclear accident at the Clyde base I think I'd rather be in St Kilda than Gala.
299

IainGlasgow,

11/11/2008 16:37:01
#357

Small frigate type vessels are generally required for fisheries and oil protection. A dozen ships the size of a minesweeper is probably what Scotland would need for this and three or four larger Frigates. As for air defence we could always consider what Ireland does and "hire" airspace protection from the RAF or retain a joint air force.

Can you think of a single enemy who is going to invade Scotlands fisheries and oilfiends that only a nuclear deterrent can stop? Nuclear weapons are a relic of the cold war and while I can understand (though not agree with) the arguments for having them in those days, they are now totally obsolete.

The biggest threat to oil rigs is from terrorists. I don't think there is a suicide bomber in the world who will be fazed by a megaton thermonuclear warhead.

I wouldn't be suprised to learn that stockpiles of nukes don't really exist in any significant quantity, rather the British and American Governments are just doing a poker bluff.
300

Western Gael,

11/11/2008 16:41:38
3 Royster,11/11/2008 00:10:30

You have it part right. The answer is to close Whitehall.
301

Scunnert,

11/11/2008 16:53:16
Too bad we can't replay Glenrothes this Thursday - might be a different outcome.
302

AJM,

11/11/2008 16:59:59
Miss H you are usually quite logical in your arguments, however to say that the SNP oppose nuclear because they always have, is poor in the least. Answer is AS decided in his teens and you are stuck with it until he goes at least.

You tend to point to the green part of the SNP policies ignoring dirty coal, why ignore it tell us how wonderful dirty coal is.

Why is the SNP promoting dirty coal, it is because I suspect that the CO2 emissions are on the UK goverment and therefore if scotland pollutes more with dirty coal, it makes things harder for the UK. Standard SNP policy.

Ignore the fact that it is a very polluting method of production throwing CO2 into the atmosphere making globally warming harder to combat. However it makes you all sleep at night because it is anti-UK. Oh yes some sort of CO2 capture will happen, tell me that more fossil fuels being used to capture it? Better build a bigger coal power station then.
303

Scunnert,

11/11/2008 17:00:57
362
"Hoots" Fae Hamilton asks:

"Hello all refugees from the Herald. When will the comments be up and running?"

Ask the bookies.
304

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 11/11/2008 17:03:19
Have any of you ever looked out over Hunterston power station from the Fairlie Moors hills behind it? One of the worlds most beautiful landscapes looking out to Arran and Kintyre with a huge poisonous sugar cube plunked right in the middle, it's a really dramatic blot on the landscape and a very clear advertisement that the destruction of scotlands perceived beauty alone should exclude Nuclear from Scotland...
305

Scunnert,

11/11/2008 17:04:43
363 - danielrober,11/11/2008 16:55:24

I didn't understand any part of that post. Was there some meaning hidden in your post? Is it in code? Is it a riddle?
306

radge dug,

11/11/2008 17:04:44
Labour prepares final nails for the Union's coffin.

Scotland doesn't need or want the white elephant that is nuclear power. Even those who give a grudging 'welcome' to it wouldn't want to live near one.
307

radge dug,

11/11/2008 17:05:48
And lastly, if it's so safe, then build it in London. I'm sure small scale localised 'devolved' nuke power stations would be feasible near Westminster?
308

AJM,

11/11/2008 17:10:03
danielrober Far point however the SNP do have this in hand, rather than hi tech engineering jobs in such a facility we have a housing estate with golf course.

Make no mistake this is the sort of thing that the SNP have in mind for the country. It is alright wrapping yourself in the flag and pretending that you are the only saviour for scotland, whilst in reality building a lower skilled scotland.

In these wind farms and every other power initiative, how many are scots engineers in scots companies?
309

Shamus,

Glasgow 11/11/2008 17:12:18
What is the prophet of doom, Salmond the Chief Whinger moaning about today folks. He should get a daily slot on Radio Scotland. Moan of the Day.
310

Alan B,

11/11/2008 17:17:55
#AJM

you obviously have not noticed it is labour and the tories that ran scotland down to a low skilled, low wage economy
311

AJM,

11/11/2008 17:21:09
Alan B thanks for pointing out that the SNP are enthuiastically carrying on with the policy.
312

fred bear,

11/11/2008 17:22:12
Scotland is, over the next 10 to 15 years, going to lose the output of Hunterston and Torness due to life expiry issues, and fossil fuel plants such as Longannet due to Euro directives on large combustion plant. Export to England will then cease, unless you wish to turn your own lights off. I wish Scotland well in demonstrating to the rest of the world that it is possible to replace these, and cater for increase in demand in a werternised society, using so-called renewable means without any backup Plan B. You will, of course, wish to sever all grids links with the rest of the UK to remove the temptation to be hypocritical and import 'English' power with a significant fraction of nuclear generation.

275 Brownlie. I would also be as happy to live and play next to a nuclear plant to the same extent as I would next to any other power station or large industrial plant.
313

Rufus T. Firefly,

11/11/2008 17:27:52
Not a peep out of Salmond over the Celtic fans Poppy protest.

Normally he can't wait to get his big phizog on the telly to talk about anything, within or outwith his remit.

But this abomination of a show of respect has left him mute.

Mind you, the SNP were the only major party in Britain not to send a member of their own party to the Rememberance Day ceremony in London on Sunday.

Anybody know why Plaid Cymru laid a wreath jointly on behalf of themselves and the SNP?

He had plenty of time to congratulate Obama though.

314

cataibh,

Over the Struie 11/11/2008 17:32:31
The reason I object to nuclear is that radio active particles keep turning up on my beloved Sutherland landscape and there is no time limit when this will come to an end.
I along with others was told at a meeting in 1955 that nuclear energy was the way forward Clean and Safe, -aye right
315

Alan B,

11/11/2008 17:33:14
#AJM

good come back :)
316

Miss H,

11/11/2008 17:39:59
379 Angus Robertson has a letter about Remembrance Sunday in today's Scotsman.
317

Miss H,

11/11/2008 17:41:41
377 Assume you will also wish to contact every other developed country that does not have nuclear power to point out that they can't possibly continue to exist as they are?
318

Scunnert,

11/11/2008 17:46:39
380 - "Hoots" Fandango, Hamilton 11/11/2008 17:29:07

"Who said they'd like to live near one of these? Are you mad? Is it a selling feature?

tinyurl.com/6lkncy"

Gies good shade on a sunny day. Owning a house here would make possitively glow with pride.
319

Miss H,

11/11/2008 17:47:02
364 I was pointing out that the SNP’s policy was consistent and has been for many years to someone who accused us of simple oppositionism.

You must realise yourself that is a ridiculous argument. Do you imagine that if the UK Government decided that it was going to oppose nuclear power that the SNP would suddenly embrace it?

Of course not and that is nothing to do with Alex Salmond. I have no idea what Alex personally thinks of nuclear power. He does not make policy personally.

If you are not going to engage as a grown up in these little chats of ours there’s not a lot of point in having them.
320

Scunnert,

11/11/2008 17:52:55
Nukes are nasty - end of.
321

vimto,

11/11/2008 17:56:54
Gordon,stop pu--y footing around these w-nk-rs,just bloody build them,the alternative is darkness!
322

AJM,

11/11/2008 18:00:47
Miss H to get back to more grown up stuff, coal how is that a good proposal? It is not, I would be opposed if were the UK government as a Scottish one. How does it fit into carbon reduction, it does not, so why is the SNP promoting it.

By all means capture carbon that is out there, but to belch more out is silly.

It is a backward step, I think there tends to be a lot of posturing around these initiatives as everyone wants the power but no one wants their area to be blighted.
323

,

11/11/2008 18:03:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
324

lulach mac gille coemgain,

11/11/2008 18:11:02
Build a super reactor inside the millenium dome - that will power up ALL of Gordon Broons Dream State Britain and be convenient for the MAJORITY of users - prob solved - debate over !
325

The Master,

11/11/2008 18:29:02
If the Nationalists have one policy that really attracts derision (apart from the obvious!) then it's the anti nuclear stance: the Scot Nats just know the world isn't round (or is it simply the natural contrariness of there followers?)

Nuclear power fills a vital energy need and it's clean: what more do you need in this ultra environmentally aware age?
326

Media 1,

cape town 11/11/2008 18:29:05
Salmond is off his head - Power is necessary!
We had power problems earlier this year, we later found out that Eskom were doing it on purpose as a warning to government - It didnt take long for more money to be found.
But when the load shedding was happening it was frustrating, you could lose power for an hour a day, sometimes longer. In a modern nation like this, that is unacceptable, but we do have reasons for being a little short on power - Scotland does not! Salmond will destroy Scotland if he has any more power -
327

SkeptikScot,

11/11/2008 18:31:14
I'd feel better if Scotland had nuclear power; without it I suspect the lights will go out.
328

brownlie,

11/11/2008 18:39:59
394 vimto

Good evening, gorgeous one, has Gordon Brown taken over Pierrepont's role then?
329

Scunnert,

11/11/2008 18:43:58
Nuclear is clean (says some misguided person in need of re-education). Tell that tae the weans wae luekemia.

I'm feart ae the dark says another???

These people aren't serious - they're contentious spirits here to sow disention - if they can. But this threads not about nuclear power. It's about who decides.
330

Scunnert,

11/11/2008 18:53:54
406 - danielrober,11/11/2008 18:49:46
# 404 Scunnert,

"Tell the family who's Dads eyes burn and he spits black lung, that coal is clean. Then wonder where your cheap coal comes from. Over that horizon are people digging, your cheap fuel. Has that tonne come from an ethical mine or a cheap mine."

That would be my family. Coal miners - aye. Pneumoconiosis - I've seen it - heard it. I'd go down the pits myself to save my children from leukemia. Wouldn't you?
331

The Master,

11/11/2008 18:54:36
#404: so I'm "in need of re-education", am I? This about sums up what many of us find deeply objectionable about nationalism, even in it's carefully sanitised Scottish context.
332

Scunnert,

11/11/2008 19:02:37
408 - The Master,11/11/2008 18:54:36

"so I'm "in need of re-education", am I?"

Yes - you don't seem to know what you're talking about. I've noticed that about Labour supporters - their poor educational attainment.

"The Master"? Did you teach at Lindsay Roy's school? That would explain a lot.
333

Scunnert,

11/11/2008 19:05:19
409 - "Hoots" Fandango, Hamilton 11/11/2008 18:54:49

Interesting link.
334

Conan the Librarian™,

11/11/2008 19:11:12
422
Careful Hoots, 410 has never been to the piano bar.

335

puskas,

East kilbride 11/11/2008 19:14:53
Well folks a better debate than usual...

Nice to see many of the idiotic posts have diminished.

Nuclear power is not necessary for Scotland.

No 377. With due respect you can live next to nuclear but hopefully not in my country.

Facts and figures I will give are more of the human sort. Accurate and nothing like the rubbish already posted by some.
I shall not apologise for writing this as some of you may remember a previous post.

Employed as an Electrical Eng. my life took me to Hunterson, Torness, Heysham and Sellafield.

Each of these areas are devoid of sea life on their beaches. I shall take Hunterson as an example. Before The nuclear plants were built Largs and nearby beaches were full of sea life each time the tide came in then out... Largs had 1,000's of jelly fish left on the beach, many crabs along with other forms of life left on the rocks North side of the Pencil.
Present day, Nil and Sellafield the same... Nothing alive only broken shells litter the beaches.

These are facts that cannot be challenged.
High rates of children with luekemia in Ireland, South,West coast of Scotland. Same at Torness and worse in Cumbria (Sellafield)

I shall add personal experience that takes me back to the mid 80's untill I retired 1997.. Retired early due to health reasons.
An example Sellafield ;
I worked from an office that had 5 Elect. Eng., 17 foreman..
Sub-contractor involved with the reprocessing plant Thorpe.
I spent 1 year exactly when I was offered a transfer to Drax (coal fired), which I accepted.
Due to health problems and attending Rosshall regularly I retired 1997.
By 1997 I had lost 7 of my workmates all through cancer related illness. All died through bowel, bladder, prostrate cancer.
Across from our office another electrical contractor with similar setup had a similar death rate. 2 very good friends who I had previously worked with. Same cancer. Bowel, prostrate,
That total I'm sure in my own mind has been added to in rec
336

morris,

edinburgh 11/11/2008 19:19:39
402

They have already gone out in your case.
Scotland has so much potential capacity for clean renewable generation that she will NEVER need nuclear.
She has got it just the same, and is about to get a lot more ,because other parts of the UK will not welcome nuclear dumping(but its okay in Jock Land)This waste needs to remain undisturbed for hundreds of thousands of years by which time we will have created even more and will progressivley move to even less safe locations! ITS A TIME BOMB and we dont even need to worry about lighting it!Its guaranteed to explode in our faces.

Seismic activity means that there are NO SAFE PLACES on this planet ever!We dont need to disturb it!

To go down the nuclear road is fraught with danger anyway but in a country with a capapcity to export clean electricity and already has a surplus of power , its barking mad.

Maybe you think a good way to put Scotland on the map is wipe her off it?We already have leaking nuclear submarines and weapons and are due more.Might as well take the waste also. Remember Dounreay? There was a huge demand for electricty around Thurso and Wick wasnt there!

The entire population could fit into Hampden for God sake! It was built there because they wanted it as far away from London as possible because they KNEW it was unsafe.The saftey record was falsified and numerous leaks took place,but none were ever reported.Then it myseriously became an ideal site for burying waste! Amazing foresight or is it coincidence there.

Glenrothes has signalled to Westminster that we are still as thick as mince and will roll over and do anything Gordon says. What a stupid nation.
337

puskas,

East kilbride 11/11/2008 19:20:34
Con't.

That total I'm sure in my own mind has been added to in recent years. Due to my retirement I have lost touch wi