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Holyrood seeks 'closure' over its £414 million fiasco

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Published Date:
22 February 2007
Announcement of £16m saving from expected final bill of £430m George Reid admitted saga has 'cast a dark shadow' on the country Fundamental flaw identified as 'construction management model'
Key points
"The Holyrood saga has been a long haul, it's been wearing, it has also been damaging, in my view, to Scottish self-confidence in our ability to run our own affairs. And that is why I use the word 'closure' today in its full double meaning." - GEORGE REID

Story in full DISILLUSIONMENT, cynicism and £414.4 million - that was the final cost of the Scottish Parliament.

After nearly ten years in which politicians and civil servants, architects and engineers, construction firms and consultants played the blame game, Holyrood's true cost was revealed yesterday.

No-one responsible for the rise from the first estimate of between £10 million and £40 million to the eventual total lost their job.

Ministers and senior public servants, who drove the ill-fated project, did not feel it necessary to do the honourable thing. And yesterday, we learned that no-one - individual or company - will be taken to court on behalf of the taxpayer to be held legally to account for their many errors. Coming to that conclusion cost taxpayers a further £600,000.

So little wonder that, in announcing that the final bill for the home of Scotland's new democracy was £16 million below the most recent estimate of £430 million, the parliament's Presiding Officer admitted that the cost of the project was not merely monetary.

George Reid, who has won praise for doing what many others avoided - taking responsibility - conceded the nation's self-confidence, which devolution was supposed to strengthen, had been shaken by the Holyrood fiasco.

Attempting to capture the mood of the nation, Mr Reid yesterday presented the £16.1 million saving as a positive outcome of the "long haul" to conclude the project. However, he admitted the saga had "cast a dark shadow" on the country which had hoped the optimism of the devolution referendum would be carried forward to Holyrood.

While Lord Fraser's public inquiry into the project found no one "villain of the piece", Mr Reid said "everyone involved in the project - consultants, contractors, MSPs, staff - might have managed it better".

Signing off the final costings, he said the fundamental flaw, identified by Lord Fraser, was the "construction management model" for the project - which meant it was started by the then Scottish Office without final costs being attached, before being passed on the parliament.

Speaking at the parliament, Mr Reid said: "We are not trying to sweep past problems out of the way. The most we can claim is a steely determination to get a grip on the project - to get the building finished, to help get us moved on - but never, ever, to give up on the paperwork and our dedication to get back what we could for the public purse."

He added."The Holyrood saga has been a long haul, it's been wearing, it has also been damaging, in my view, to Scottish self-confidence in our ability to run our own affairs. And that is why I use the word 'closure' today in its full double meaning. Closure in the sense of finalising the accounts, but closure also in the psychological sense of finally letting go a problem and releasing oneself for new opportunities and challenges."

Margo MacDonald, the independent MSP who has been one of the project's most vocal critics, said she was pleased with the savings announced yesterday. "But if that is weighed in the balance of the value for money that this building represents to the public purse, then it wasn't value for money and we should not forget that," she added.

Graham Birse, the deputy chief executive of Edinburgh Chamber of Commerce, said: "It's for the people of Scotland to decide whether the building is value for money. However, it is clear that the purchasing process initiated by Westminster fell far short of the procedures for cost control and delivery that a business would be expected to engage in under the same circumstances."

Mr Reid revealed that to hammer down costs, the Holyrood project team went through 37 crates of documents, each containing thousands of papers, to make sure the sums about to be charged were realistic - eventually identifying the £16 million in savings.

In a parallel process, the parliament's corporate body secretly set up "Project Flora" - a group of high-powered lawyers and construction experts plus an independent arbitrator and mediator - to investigate the case for legal action against the main consultants on the project. The group of about 20, which cost £600,000 to run from December 2005 to late last year, came to the conclusion there was no guarantee that legal action would succeed.

The report to MSPs revealed 45,000 snags were identified in the parliament in October 2004. Only 13 defects remained, with seven being put right: six are still being disputed with the many contractors who have worked in the building. Of the six in dispute, five are leaks of water into the underground car park and one relates to water gathering in another part of the building.

The parliamentary authorities are still pursuing legal action over the chamber roof strut that became detached last year, forcing MSPs to meet outside Holyrood.

THE KEY PLAYERS - WHERE ARE THEY NOW?


Sarah Davidson

Sarah Davidson, right, took over as project manager in June 2001. At that time she was a 30-year-old civil servant with no major construction experience.

She was asked to play a key role in the implementation of the smoking ban and is now head of the Cabinet Secretariat. One of the high fliers in the Scottish Executive, she is destined for the top despite being central to the Holyrood project.

Lord Steel of Aikwood

David Steel was the first Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament and his entire term of office was dominated by the Holyrood controversy.

Lord Steel is sought-after as a speaker and did some lecturing on cruise ships after he retired from Holyrood. He is now an active Lib Dem member of the House of Lords.

Sir Muir Russell

Sir Muir Russell was permanent secretary at the Scottish Office and then the Scottish Executive when all the crucial decisions and major mistakes were made. He is now the principal at Glasgow University, earning a reputed

£178,000 a year. He is entitled to a pension of £75,000 to £80,000 a year, along with a lump-sum payment of between £215,000 and £220,000 from the Scottish Executive.

Barbara Doig

Barbara Doig was the project sponsor of the Holyrood building during the formative years of the project, taking over in March 1998. She was at the centre of the decision to reinstate Bovis Lend Lease to the shortlist to manage the project. Bovis went on to win the contract.

She was publicly criticised for her role in the project by Lord Fraser.

Mrs Doig returned to the Executive's research department before retiring early at the age of 58 two years ago on a good final-salary, civil service pension.

John Gibbons

John Gibbons was the Executive's chief architect at the heart of the early decisions as a ministerial adviser. He was also a go-between when relations between the architects and politicians started to become strained. He retired from the Executive in April 2005, then aged 65, but has not stopped working, nor has he dropped his link with the building. Mr Gibbons is contracted to provide architectural advice to the Scottish Parliament Corporate Body on an occasional basis.

Brian Stewart

Brian Stewart was the lead Scottish architect with the firm RMJM, Enric Miralles' Scottish partners.

Mr Stewart was clearly deeply affected by the problems by the time of the Fraser Inquiry in 2003 and sat through much of the inquiry, something the other central figures decided not to do. He was once on the verge of tears when being questioned from the witness box, saying the project was a "nightmare".

Mr Stewart was forced out of RMJM after a clash with directors in 2005.

Benedetta Tagliabue

Benedetta Tagliabue runs EMBT, the Barcelona-based architectural firm she started with her late husband, Enric Miralles. She inherited the role of chief architect when he died suddenly in 2000. She clashed with her Scottish architectural partners RMJM throughout the Holyrood construction process, but has defended the building ever since.

Still time to shake off that reputation for wasting money


GEORGE Reid has many qualities, and was a serious contributor to the Westminster parliament when he was MP for Clackmannan.

But I fear he is indulging in wishful thinking if he supposes the costs of the Scottish Parliament building are something to be submerged in the mists of time.

The spiralling escalation in the price is etched into the consciousness of many in Scotland, not least those who, unlike me, were in favour of a devolved government.

I was one of the number of Westminster MPs who have not made public criticism of MSPs. I have taken the view that for the sake of all of us, the Scottish Parliament and those who work in it should be given a chance to succeed.

My one resentment goes back to the time of Donald Dewar. Donald went on to the Today programme to tell its two million or so listeners that Tam Dalyell was "wicked and alarmist" to suggest that the Scottish Parliament would cost a penny over £40 million.

I speculate whether he believed any such thing. What is certain is that I had asked my friends in Standard Life, Scott Bell and James Stretton, about the cost of their then new building in Lothian Road - £100 million plus.

I didn't believe for a moment that Bell, Stretton and their colleagues would be hoodwinked by contractors. Their building was going to be simpler than any Scottish Parliament building.

How, I thought, could it be less than £100 million-plus? But it was on the basis of £40 million that the referendum in 1999 got a Yes vote.

Since we are now where we are, what can the Scottish Parliament do to retrieve its reputation?

The difficulty about the past is that the parliament and, by association, the MSPs and the Executive, are linked, if not with criminal waste, at least with cavalier expenditure. There is a remedy, and that is over the coming years the parliament has to gain a reputation of insisting on value for money. I do not think I do the MSPs an injustice by asserting that there are a whole range of schemes which are unnecessary and superfluous.

However, the Scottish Parliament and the Executive are soon going to be put to a test which hitherto they have not faced up to. Barnett - and the system that is associated with my close friend for 40 years, Joel Barnett, who continues to be astonished that his temporary fix to an awkward situation in the desperate economic circumstances of 1977 should have lasted so long - is going to come to an end.

The situation cannot continue whereby Scots get in public expenditure 23.7 per cent more per capita than the English.

English MPs wondering: "Are none of us good enough to do Home Office affairs for England or transport affairs for England?" look covetously at the Scottish financial settlement.

The challenge to the Scottish Parliament will be when it has to tighten its belt, is it going to be seen to spend its money wisely?

If the MSPs had been allowed to decide on their building, and requirements, they would, I believe, have imbued them with a carefulness which seems to have been, and still is, absent in these heady days when a Scottish Chancellor of the Exchequer appears as Lady Bountiful.

This is not going to continue. If they meet the challenge of sparser provision, they will restore their reputation - and George Reid's wish to forget the exorbitant cost of his building will be fulfilled.

• Tam Dalyell is the former MP for Linlithgow.

TAM DALYELL

BREAKDOWN


Scaffolding
£8.6m

MSPs' windows
£7.4m

Toilets
£2.9m

TVs, radios
£656k

Asbestos/pigeon dropping removal
£200,000

Signs
£211k

Main chamber frame
£40m

Fire alarm
£1.7m

Specialist glazing
£16m

VAT
£48.5m

Stone floors
£2.9m

Buy site
£6.3m

Landscaping
£12.7m

Fees, staff, site organisation
£82.7m

Turf
£118k

Bomb-blast testing
£222k

Lifts
£1.4m

Total construction
£276.9m

Roads
£1m

Grand total
£414.4m

Page 1 of 1

 
1

www.scottwebb.co.uk,

22/02/2007 01:24:56

HOW MUCH..........GOOOOOOOD GRIEEEEEEF

2

Bill, Dunblane,

22/02/2007 01:45:42

Well I think £2.9 Million for toilets is reasonable, given all the sh*t that's close by.

3

Statsman,

22/02/2007 01:48:47

The most expensive carbuncle in Scottish history.

4

Sean K,

Edinburgh 22/02/2007 01:53:47

Well said, Statsman (3),

Kirsty Wark had defended the high cost saying if you want the cheapest quote you get a "shed".

Well, we got a 'shed' all right, - the most expensive carbuncle of a shed in Scottish history !

5

www.scottwebb.co.uk,

22/02/2007 02:20:10

Makes you realise the ONE thing our puppet politicians ARE good at....spending your money :)

6

Peter Cherbi,

Edinburgh 22/02/2007 02:24:43

Looks like they want to stay away from that 'magic' £500million figure .. and who can believe this 'final' bill anyway ?

If it were accurate, it would be the first time we had been told the truth in this whole sorry fraud .. and that doesn't seem possible with New Labour & the equally dishonest Scottish Parliament Corporate Body in charge ...

7

www.scottwebb.co.uk,

22/02/2007 02:33:08

Comment@6 Peter, totally agreed mate :)

8

Scullion,

Canada 22/02/2007 02:52:05

Beware that blanket pejorative "wicked and alarmist" as it is an oft used one (or one of similar sentiment) I see on this site against anyone who has the temerity to challenge anyone else.
Let every blackguard associated with this debacle be reminded of it at every opportunity.

9

Guga,

Rockall 22/02/2007 03:09:32

The fault lies primarily with the late Donald Dewar. He was the Secretary of State for Scotland in the Westminster government, and he was the prime mover as well as being in charge. It was he who decided on the site, the architect, the design and all the rest of it. The people of Scotland were never consulted at any stage.

10

Rory from Leith,

22/02/2007 03:15:57

I have been on the tour of the building so that as a taxpayer I could see how MY money was spent. There was loads of expensive wood inlay all over the place and my mate took me to see one of the MSP offices afterwards. It cost about 25 grand for each of the "think pods". I could do a nice decorating job on an office for far less than that. Am I the only one who thinks that this was a serious waste of money?!?!?
I really hope that the new tram and the new Forth Road Bridge will succeed. They will cost just as much as the parliament, but the ordinary taxpayer will benefit for a change! Disgraceful!!

11

Flabskin,

Mbra' 22/02/2007 03:23:42

Oh, well. At least I understand the reason for and the timing of that pathetic hagiographic excuse for an article last week portraying Kirsty Wark as the new Mother Theresa.

Nice when you can get your Media chums to do a whitewash job for you before any mud has even been thrown...

12

johnpaulgeorgeandringo,

Australia 22/02/2007 03:29:36

Alternatively, you could accept the building for what it finally is; a magnificent and original triumph of art and engineering.
But, then where is the fun in that.
Far better to be resentful and add it to the poke of chips on the nations shoulders.

13

chendry,

wellignton 22/02/2007 03:43:46

Last march the main chamber was evacuated because a beam feel down....maybe we should spend the 16 million saving on more nuts and bolts

14

Peter Cherbi,

Edinburgh 22/02/2007 03:47:26

#7 Scott

An excellent example of why we can't believe anything these people tell us : http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/holyrood/display.var....

£10,000 of taxpayers money going on keeping a labour colleague in work ... cronyism if ever it happened .. c'mon Scotsman, where were you on this one ? .. splitting invoices at Holyrood sounds as honest as cash for honours ...

15

Stuart W,

22/02/2007 03:51:58

I suspect quite a lot of people would be happy with a Holyrood 'closure'.

16

Rory from Leith,

22/02/2007 04:10:57

#12, I suppose you didn't have to contribute your taxes to that building. It has won a few awards, but that is of no comfort when you are waiting on a bus in the rain or on an appointment with a GP or any other public service in Edinburgh. We paid for that and there is less money available for essential services. I sincerely hope that the Trams (going to Leith) and the Forth bridge will finally benefit the hardworking people of this city who are taxed to death.

17

Sinnerman,

Another Planet 22/02/2007 04:15:43

The Scottish Parliament building is a prime example of what happens when you let an architect have free-rein with a design. Then it goes to the engineers who look at it and go "sh1t, how are we supposed to build this thing?" Then watch the costs rocket out of control.

18

Maisie,

22/02/2007 05:06:13

12. johnpaulgeorgeandringo

"Alternatively, you could accept the building for what it finally is; a magnificent and original triumph of art and engineering."

Have you actually seen in "live" so to speak? I do not think you have, it is the most god awful sticklebrick of a monstrosity!! I fear you just needed something to say so you could get the 'chip on the shoulder' quote in.

Hang around though Media 1 will be here to play with you soon.

19

Flabskin,

Mbra' 22/02/2007 05:10:29

#12
"Alternatively, you could accept the building for what it finally is; a magnificent and original triumph of art and engineering..."

If you and your fellow pseuds, posers and snobs want to celebrate this 'magnificent and original triumph of art and engineering' then go ahead.

Just pay for it yourself, ok?


20

ghillie,

canada 22/02/2007 05:11:11

well said&12 .why is it we Scots are so negative about ourselves? I see it all the time on these comments.Edinburgh is an architechtural delight. what would the magnificent New Town look like today if they had scrimped on cost then?Parlaiment is a beautful building and will be appreciated for generations to come.So lighten up the naysayers,look at other cities around the world and you may appreciate the city and country you live in.STOP WHINEING

21

Flabskin,

Mbra' 22/02/2007 05:18:25

#12

Oh, and before I went hailing anything as 'triumph of engineering' I would wait to see if it was still standing in ten years time.

That jerry-built excercise in vanity and egomania, project managed by Civil Service half-wits?

Not a chance.

22

Ubi,

Edinburgh 22/02/2007 05:47:15

Who will manage the construction of any new crossing of the Forth ?

23

Weary Wee Wummin,

Edinburgh 22/02/2007 05:47:28

No, this isn't the final bill. Ultimately they're going to have to make some kind of long term decision on the problem of pigeons roosting in the windows and the "twigs" they call "culture".... which are presently preventing the windows being cleaned without practically dismantling them or the SMP's
("S pendthrift M eddling P ickpocketers") being able to open their windows to breath..... like this wouldn't be a bonus in some cases ! ! ! To say nothing of the fact that it is built on an undergroung well or a dormant volcano by it's side in a rapidly changing climate which according to experts is changing the core of the earth anyhow..... We've forgotten again, haven't we. "The Lunatics Are Running Te Asylum"

24

Maci,

22/02/2007 06:00:02

9 is nearly right.
Who gave Donald Dewar authority in the matter? We can only presume it was some devious soul(s) who wanted to besmirch Scotland's first step to freedom in a pool of contoversy and give the unionist media endless excuse to reiterate presumed Scottish incompetence.
What did become of those who spent twice as much on the dome thing? Come to think of it, what did become of it?
All neatly buried under Holyrood, I suspect as we keep beating ourseves up about errors beyond our control. 17 hit the nail on the head.

25

GeordieAyr,

Cairo 22/02/2007 06:58:10

It seems that there is a new "parcel of rogues" in Edinburgh.

26

GeordieAyr,

Cairo 22/02/2007 07:02:53

It seems that there is a new "parcel of rogues" in Edinburgh, and who on earth can possibly describe the building as world class when it looks like a shambles - in fact the whole business has be a shambles from the start.

27

Cadgers,

Perth 22/02/2007 07:14:09

#23 WWW Why do they bother trying to clean them windaes? None of those inside ever look out to see what's going on!
Useless shower of t***s.

28

George F,

Michigan USA (Edinburgh Born and Bred) 22/02/2007 07:17:07

I've never seen this building, never took the time when I was home, infact this is the first photo of it I've seen. Is it as bad and weird looking seeing with ones own eyes as it is in this photo. It looks like it's been painted the same camoflage as the old WWII battleships.

29

Ruskie,

Edinburgh 22/02/2007 07:21:00

This a complete waste of tax payers money and an embaressment to the whole world. It puts Scotland on the map for all the wrong reasons.

30

Heidegger,

Fife 22/02/2007 07:25:23

Time to demolish - building proves that
architecture is not an art but a disease.
Hang everyone involved.

31

Frazer with a Zee,

22/02/2007 07:30:11

Whether or not the building is a carbunkle or not is a matter of opinion and wholly irrelevant.

Whether or not the building is value for money or not, only time will tell.

That mistakes were made is generally accepted. Whether lessons will be learned, again, only time will tell.

That no one is to blame or, at least, to carry significant responsibility for this project is an absolute travesty. From the very first moment the sum of £40 million was mentioned this was a project doomed to fail, at least on a budgetary level. It may well have been possible to have a parliamentary building for this sum, but not this building, on this site, with this design, with these materials and with the key players involved. And who is it that brought all this together - the "Father of Devolution" (sic) himself.

32

eric,

Lothian 22/02/2007 07:34:59

Its like a very bad Council scheme 60s Building that Glasgow pulled down in the 70s,,Horrific Cost.

33

jim lad,

the capital 22/02/2007 07:36:20

i have been on the tour and i must say it took my breath away. You run out of superlatives to describe it but the question remains with you all the time WHY so grand, but you begin to see where the money was spent.I still think a gazebo in the royal park is all they really deserve to work in.

34

CJO,

The Maghreb 22/02/2007 07:53:43

To claim a £16.1m saving when the true figure is a £375m and expect the voters to believe it shows the utter contempt politicians have for the voter.

To build such a ridiculously expensive building, irrespective of whether it is architecturally pleasing or not smacks of a Banana Republic - where they build grand buildings to show how advanced they are when the country is going down the pan.

35

Wherryman,

22/02/2007 07:54:19

no doubt if Mugabe had spent this much they'd have been calling for his head

36

,

22/02/2007 07:59:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
37

Horsevet,

Glasgow 22/02/2007 08:09:22

I wonder if any of the those people complaining about the building have every actually been there?
The parliment is an incredible place, infact standing in the debating chamber is a moving experience. The visitor numbers are on the increase and nationally and internationally the response from those who have actually been there is very positive.
Yes it was expensive, yes it was over budget, but it is a confident expression of modern scotland, or perhaps where modern scotland aspires to be. Not to mention a dam site cheaper than the useless millenium dome, and trident!
It's always easy to complain and criticise but part of what scotland needs is to loose the whinging blame culture and get on with it.

38

bill-alba,

fife 22/02/2007 08:14:34

The only thing wrong with holyrood is that it isnt a full parliament...as for the cost...get over it..

39

eric,

Lothian 22/02/2007 08:16:44

The inside is as nice as You would expect from any modern building ,But the Outside Looks drastic ,
if they were going to stick to modern it could have looked spectaclar instead of bad 60s building,It just doesn not look or sit right in Edinburgh ,

40

Maci,

22/02/2007 08:21:03

Goodonya bill-alba 38

41

Maisie,

22/02/2007 08:23:02

28. George F

Oh George, It is far worse than you see in that photo! It is a scab on the face of beautiful old Edinburgh, a stab wound in the history of the place. I cringe everytime I see it. It does seem two or three posters here are enamoured with it though, lord knows why.

Perhaps if they had built it outside the old town in the suburbs it would not scream out it's vileness as loud.

I cough up my own entrails everytime I lay eyes on it so horrible it is.

42

La Provence,

Edinburgh 22/02/2007 08:23:09

What a sad story the Scots, I love your country, I have lived there for 25 years, but you will always find something to criticise...
Come and see the Parliament for yourself and you will be surprised how much you will like it...
Taking a guided tour...
It is a fascintaing building and it will still be there for the future...
Ask for the prices of other building in the world... and compare...
Football grounds for example south of the border !!!
Well I suppose that is more important than running the Country...
I will still love Scotland ans the Scots, but do be little more positive, life will be so much better.

43

Shellfishfarmer,

Inverness 22/02/2007 08:28:26

Having done the tour, all I can say is that basic decisions on using concrete and granite instead of Edinburgh sanstone(Greywacke) are an affront to all the other fine buidings in Edinburgh. Modern architects see my argument as 'pastiche' but the point has been proved over and over again. If a building does not grow out of its surrounding landscape and culture then it is doomed. This building grew out of a weird assemblage of ideas which were 'kitch' Scotland. The gullible politicians swallowed it hook, line and sinker and left us with the maximum possible maintainance bill into the bargain.

44

GOM,

22/02/2007 08:29:10

The money wasted on the building is a drop in the ocean compared with the past and future cost of the totally unnecessary institution which it houses.

45

paulr,

22/02/2007 08:34:33

The building is an eyesore and how long will it las?
Ten years from now they will be telling us that our taxes have to increase as they need another £400 million to repair the mouldering heap.

46

eric,

Lothian 22/02/2007 08:34:52

I think the Armadillo in Glasgow looks Brilliant ,If we had to do modern Why not do it properly ,This Parliament building to look at Is awful Like something from Gowk thrapple in Wishaw,

47

Edward,

22/02/2007 08:39:58

#43 La Provence
Totally agree with you, this is a typical story from the Scotsman, trying to stir it up
Its unbeleivable that there is many here that slate the New Parliament, its typical of those , that would be happy not having any progress being made in Scotland, typical of those that see Scotland as a 'wee country'
IVe taken the tour inside the building and as a Scot, Im very proud of the building, many freinds and family from home and overseas are also proud of the building,
I agree that the way the project was handled was a disgrace, namely by the likes of David Steel and Sarah Davidson, who were amatuers and should never have been involved. It was the amautuerish way that the civil servants and politicians interfered from day one, that resulted in the higher cost.
The project was undervalued from the very start, the delays and problems set up by the politicians at the time added some £ 100 million to the cost, thats a fact. Hidden away in the assessments, is the fact that if the building was to be done today from scratch, without the delays etc, it would only cost £ 356 million.
At the end of the day, regardless of the cost, we have a building to be proud of and one that every Scot should use, by ensureing the politicians they elect are the right ones.
Scots have to prove that they are a nation with a parliament and not as some, as seems to be the case here, some two bit borough council with an expensive town hall, which is the view of some of its southern neighbours!
So to all that criticise, wake up! and get real

48

Edward,

22/02/2007 08:44:13

#44 Shellfishfarmer
Clueless!
The building, which has received top awards for its architecture. Is based and is for all of Scotland, which is why it uses stone and wood from all over Scotland as well as concrete, it is to reflect ALL the people and the land of Scotland, which is why it has all the varities of materials and shapes that it does

49

Maisie,

22/02/2007 08:44:31

48. Edward

"Its unbeleivable that there is many here that slate the New Parliament, its typical of those , that would be happy not having any progress being made in Scotland, typical of those that see Scotland as a 'wee country"

Utter rubbish and tosh! A Eric says above, the armadillo in Glasgow is stunning, just because some of us hate this beast of a parliment building for aesthetic reasons, does not mean we hate all modern buildings, the setting of modern building is paramount. Imagine if the Armadillo was in the centre of old Glasgow, how different it would look then.

It is you and La Povence who look to put down Scots just because we all dont agree with your opinion of the building.

I myself have been on the tour, the inside is fine, you even forget when you are inside just how hideous the outside is. Fact remains, its a vile building in my opinion.

50

Iain G,

Glasgow 22/02/2007 08:44:37

Never mind, it still cost less than half the "Milennium Dome" - funny how that's gone all quiet.

51

Allan (Glasgow),

22/02/2007 08:45:42

Edward (48)

Well said.

Where were the headlines for the £250m Portcullis House, an extension to accomodation at Westminster, London Cross Rail project, Docklands etc etc.

I am sick fed up with this "we're hopeless, couldnt even build a Parliament" attitude amongst Scots.

52

Edward,

22/02/2007 08:45:45

#45 GOM
You will be a Unionist then!
Who doesnt want devolution and for Scotland to look afetr itself

53

Tweedmouth,

Borders 22/02/2007 08:47:04

So that's alright then. It turns out that NOBODY was to blame for ANYTHING! It really IS the ugliest parliament building in Europe - can't say whether it's worse than any building in the world,but what a colossal failure on every level. Why does it have 'stapler guns' and 'bamboo poles' across the exterior?

This disaster shows why a 'go it alone' Scotland would be an utter disaster. The political elite in Scotland was in charge of this, along with their legal and architectural chums, from beginnign to end. No transparency, no accountability, no responsibility. The media were pathetic until right at the end when it was obvious what a dogs breakfast it all was - and the elite still controlled BBC Scotland to the extent that Kirsty Wark - one of the key committee who chose the design - was the only TV producer allowed to make a definitive documentary about it. This revealed nothing and concealed almost everything on WHO was responsible. Not one single person has lost their job. Everybody has pocketed shed loads of taxpayers cash and run to the Bahamas: architects, politicians, lawyers.

Get yourelves ready because THIS is the pattern of the future; this is the big game. You will see this repeated over the new Forth crossing; the new rail line to Edinburgh airport - any and every public funded project. Happy times in the trough. Oink, Oink, Oink.

54

Edward,

22/02/2007 08:52:43

#50 Maisie
Its YOU and the others that put yourselves down, but your so blinkered you dont see it!
The Armadillo by the way is a good design, pity though that it wasnt built bigger as it should have been, but that sums up the atitude of some Scots, with the make do approach.
You actyally agree, having taken the tour, that its 'fine', well at least youve taken the tour and 'fine' is a whole lot better than crap
I dont put down Scots, because they disagree, I dispar of my fellow Scots, that seem to have this parochial view of our country. Im a Scot that strongly believes in its people and what they can acheive and that its definately not the best wee country in the world, its actually the the greatest country in the world

55

Jay Kay,

Dunfermline 22/02/2007 08:56:37

As an architect I would comment that it isnt that special, its no crowning masterpiece thats for sure, but once again the people of scotland will just roll over as we always do and say ok, 414million no problem. When are we going to stand up and say enough is enough, were all fed up with the way our government see us as nothing more than just simpletons.

They need to be in court over an attrocity that is our parliment building. Personally I think there are far better quality buildings already in Edinburgh that wouldnt have cost 413 million pounds to renovate so why was it built, when the Engineer on the project walked that spoke volumes to me, as the person responsible on site he clearly had enough and was protecting his professional standing.

56

Edward,

22/02/2007 08:58:07

#54 Tweedmouth
'It really IS the ugliest parliament building in Europe '
Exactly what basis to you make this purile statement?
After all it won the RIBA Stirling prize for architecture
By the sounds of it your one of those unionists, that believe Scotland is not capable of doing anything

57

Peter 100,

22/02/2007 08:58:23

Sarah Davidson
Sarah Davidson, right, took over as project manager in June 2001. At that time she was a 30-year-old civil servant with no major construction experience.

She was asked to play a key role in the implementation of the smoking ban and is now head of the Cabinet Secretariat. One of the high fliers in the Scottish Executive, she is destined for the top despite being central to the Holyrood project.

Obviously the way to the top is to be completely incompetent at what you do, how on earth is she still in work never mind being destined to the top and the others have all retired on big pensions or another gravy train has been found for them, is no one ever held responsible for massive mistakes like this

58

GOM,

22/02/2007 08:59:21

#53. Ed, I suppose I must be, but I can't help wondering what benefits we have seen from having the parliament, compared with the real improvements which could have been made if the money (£1Bn per year?) had been spent on real development - roads, schools, hospitals.

What has the parliament done for us?

59

Scaramouche,

22/02/2007 09:01:12

Main Chamber frame ...... £40m.

I'd like to see that particular figure broken down into its constituent parts. You can't get away with just throwing that figure at the public and hoping they'll say sod-all!

I've never been inside the parly, except for what you see on TV and frankly to say £40m and leave it at that just isn't good enough.

It's STILL the most expensive building in the country and further informatuion must be put into the public domain.

THEY might want closure ...... but they ain't getting it!!!!

60

Maxie,

22/02/2007 09:02:19

"it was on the basis of £40 million that the referendum in 1999 got a Yes vote. " says Tam Dalyell.

Naaa. It was on the basis that the vast majority of Scots voted Yes for a Scots parliament and Yes to it having tax varying powers that the parliament was created. The cost of the parliament building didnt come into the referendum.

As the article states, it was the former Scottish Office at Westminster that instigated the initial plans for the Parliament building handing the development over to the new Scots parliament without having finalised costs.

As now Head of that department, why is we Dougie Alexander's Office not considered a key player.

The SNP opposed the construction of a new parliament building but Labour and the Lib-Dems wanted a nice new flash environment along with their nice new flash mondeos.

61

JayJay,

Glasgow - ish 22/02/2007 09:03:21

What I find hard to believe is the sort of people who will come on here and wibble about whether or not this building is "art". Since when did public buildings have to pass the aesthetically pleasing test as part of their construction process? I thought art was subjective, and I certainly don't need people with a vested interest, such as Kirsty Wark, telling me I am a philistine because "I can't see it!"
This project was handled and managed like a final year Glasgow School of Art competition. It would be laughable were it not for the utterly woeful costs involved. As a very brief example, anyone with half a brain looking at window and glazing costs of £24m would have thought...this might be a tad grand for the job in hand.
The public sector should never again be allowed to take control of a major project...be it the development of computer systems, major infrastructure projects or indeed public buildings. The list of utter disasters when people such as Sarah Davidson get the gig grows by the day - and the only certainty is that these characters will go on to bigger and better things having not one ounce of shame over their role in this fiasco.
Imagine pitching up at Laing O'Rourke and getting a project management job on a £300m build contract with utterly no past experience of running a major project. The layman would sh*t a brick....the Civil Servant just continues to rise up the tree!
The worst of it is that this is but the tip of the iceberg on public sector waste....ever wondered why our taxes are so high?

62

Chris,

Grangemouth 22/02/2007 09:05:54

The Welsh Assembly building cost £41 million, excluding VAT. Do you think the Welsh would not be complaining if their building had cost ten times as much?

63

Iain's,

London 22/02/2007 09:08:29

Why does Scotland not get the Olympics?

Another chance for Labour to spend money as if it has gone out of fashion.

Scottish Labour should have moved into more suitable premises rather than build this white elephant.
They could have used the Castle Trades Hotel. A place much more suitable for them. I'm sure that the Alcoholics and down and outs could have done a better job!

Why was a totaly unqualified person put in charge?
Why is there not a fraud inquiry run by an independent organisation such as the FBI from the US not even suggested?

WHY ARE LABOUR ALLOWED TO DO THIS?

Scottish voters are the most stupid people in the world.

They keep voting New Labour, paying through the nose, and getting nothing.

Edinburgh has the Royal High, the General Assembly Hall and Parliament Hall. A third venue was only because of pride and to do the exact opposite of what the SNP wanted.

IF YOU WERE NOT SHEEP YOU WOULD NOT BE SHORN!

GET REVENGE, REAL REVENGE,

VOTE THEM OUT!

64

Big G,

22/02/2007 09:10:09

Well, it was only £414 million of taxpayers money. No need to findout who was responsible. The way things are headed MSP annual expense claims for garden walls and the like will soon eclipse this paultry total.

65

Maxie,

22/02/2007 09:10:53

Dome... Dome Dome... Dome Dome...Dome Dome... Dome...Dome Dome... Dome Dome Dome.

Never was good at the Archers theme tune.

66

SamuraiCelt,

Tokyo 22/02/2007 09:19:24

They continue to find more extravagant ways of lining their pockets with the peoples' money. Well done, but this is NOT news.

67

Maisie,

22/02/2007 09:19:33

55, Edward,

I feel you judge us all on our feelings towards the parliment building! This is not a subject that is going to attract die hard optimists only, people are entilted to their opinion on whether they like th building or not, we are not only entitled to your oipinion and then putting down the whole nation as whingers, just because we dont all agree with you.

I said the building was 'fine' inside, I still stick to my own views on the outside just as you can stick to yours. You dont see me labelling a whole country because they dont all agree with my opinion do you.

Its really not worth getting so upset about it is?

68

Stoo,

Borders 22/02/2007 09:22:06

Still half the price of Portculis House in London.

69

dyon gollins's back,

Abbeymount 22/02/2007 09:24:55

From my standpoint I cannot understand the complaints about this building. It is functional, it is a remarkable artistic and architectural statement, it expresses what are (or ought to be the aspirations of the nation), it is not a blight on the landscape but interacts with it's surroundings including a restored very old vernacular house (Queensbury), it is visited by a large and ever increasing number of people and as an engineering project it was incredibly difficult but ultimately successful on a very constrained site.

What I find lamentable is to read the bitter little minds criticising this gorgeously daring and enormously interesting construction and posturing that an alternative which would have done justice to the purpose could have been built for a far smaller amount of money. Who knows but I know that the new building for MP's in Westminster opposite Big Ben cost more than twelve times its original estimate with none of the elan and beauty of the Scottish Parliament and that building is mono-functional - it provides only offices for Members of the Westminster parliament - no debating chamber, no committee or other meeting rooms, no lobbies for MP's to meet the public, no light and internal gardens and no visiting facilities all of which are available in the multi-purpose construction of the Scottish Parliament.
Scottish people are far too fond of greeting into their tea/soup and complaining about their country. Do something spectacular and life enhancing like create a famous prize-winning parliament building and many scottish people are never short of a whinge about it. Well such an attitude will drive the country out of business and should not be encouraged by a responsible news paper such as is( or ought to be) the Scotsman.
The rest of us who welcome bold attempts to state and develop our national capacities are proud of and ecstatic about this building and at £400+m. it is likely to be very good value in the long run - after all h

70

Not Me,

....a very nice place..... 22/02/2007 09:29:20

.......which quite obviously isn't the scottish Parliament building.......never have understood the Bamboo????

Anyway if they want closure then just close it......

71

BiGAL1967,

Perth 22/02/2007 09:31:05

Another of Tony and New labours grand ideas.
A bit like the Dome really, with the same architectural merit, it looks like Fred Flintstones Garage.
The MSP's who project managed this debacle have only proven to the Scottish people what we all knew. They are greedy and incompetent.
Incidentally, if this mob are involved in the new Forth crossing expect cheap holidays in Scandanavia.
Sorry I can't be more specific but that bridge could end up anywhere.

72

AJ,

Fife 22/02/2007 09:31:34

The Labour administration are pulling out all the stops - first the new Forth crossing announcement and now a £16m saving on Holyrood!

There must an election coming up!

btw,

Forget the cost, it's done and dusted. Scotland deserves the best, and personally, I don't mind the building. Once the Westminster puppets are kicked out, maybe then, it will function as a genuine centre of government!

73

Not Me,

....a very nice place..... 22/02/2007 09:32:45

# 69

So its multi purpose - well, lets find another purpose for it.......

Either a proper parliament as you suggest or something else entirley because devolution ain't worth the price.....

74

.,

22/02/2007 09:34:50

People that are so fixed on this topic really need to learn a little more about public finance.

Firstly, £400m really isn't a lot of money for a large unique build.
Portcullis House, just the offices for Westminster and the the nearest direct comparison, £250m.
The European Parliament was refurbished at a cost of 1bn Euros.
Millenium Dome £1bn.
London Olympics is already £900m over estimate and that's still got 5 more years to accumulate costs!
Even the new Royal Infirmary in Edinburgh had a capital cost of £186m, and that is using far lower cost materials and isn't a unique design on a high cost site.

VAT and benefit fraud across the UK runs to over £3bn annually, so the scale of this is really miniscule.

Of course it doesn't help that the Scotsman continually misreports the facts (when was this site ever estimated to be £40m?).

Just get over it, £400m over the course of 10 years really is nothing. It amounts to about 0.1% of the Scottish budget over that period. Get it in perspective!

75

Paul Voltaire,

www.paulvoltaire.spaces.live.com 22/02/2007 09:34:56

All we got in the end was a talking shop.
Shame.

76

The Judge,

22/02/2007 09:35:23

Don't worry everybody we'll have to do this all again in about 40 odd years, so we can change the design then.

This building was NOT built to last. We may have paid almost half a billion quid for it but in reality its only worth about 50 or 60 million. I knew a lot of the "tradesmen" on the project and I wouldn't let half of them build me a shed in the back garden let alone a remarkable artistic and architectural statement.

77

Sophia,

South Gyle, Edinburgh 22/02/2007 09:35:52

Holding my hand up too...I have been on the tour and actually quite like the inside although a more simple version would have cost much, much less. The maintenance bills must be horrendous....NOW the S.P.C.B. should hold their hands up and admit that there ARE design faults and endeavour to correct them before the tax payer gets anymore huge bills. The wood on the outside is not only rotting away after 2 years because of our weather conditions ( not considered by a Catalan architect)but it is also covered in bird droppings which MUST be a health hazard apart from making life impossible for the abseiling window cleaners. Strip the filthy stuff away now and let us at least have a Parly with clean, decent windows instead of the filth we have now.
Perhaps we could also know what the architect kept on a retainer is actually doing for his huge salary?

78

Homo Sapiens,

22/02/2007 09:36:36

"No-one responsible for the rise from the first estimate of between £10 million and £40 million to the eventual total lost their job."

That is the biggest shame of all! Lack of accountability and responsibility. None of those involved in this debacle should be in a position of trust! Better yet they should all be prevented from holding public office, be prevented from serving as directors, or even trustees of a public kindergarten!

79

JG,

Fife 22/02/2007 09:37:43

#69 Dyon
No it isn't - it's an over priced ugly construction, built on the whim of a man who was full of his own importance. It was Donald Dewar who strongly objected to the old high school building (a much more impressive construction), which could have been upgraded at a fraction of the cost. And if he was looking to impress - how much more imposing could he have been, standing outside beside the columns with the view they would have had? Even on a dull, rainy day it would have been lovely. But no, we'll give the contract to a foreign artist, get charged a fortune for a heap of rubbish and the Scottish people will pay for it. This wasn't a fiasco - it is criminal!!!!

80

TheGlaswegian,

Edinburgh 22/02/2007 09:37:44

Every time I see the Scottish Parliament buildilng I think of Cumbernauld town centre....
I feel sorry that Donald Dewar (great man that he was) left this.

81

WJohn,

West Lothian 22/02/2007 09:38:48

It wisnae me. A big boay (Donald Dewar) did it and ran away.

82

Kinghorn Boy,

Fife 22/02/2007 09:40:02

I’ve always felt that the Hyundai / Motorola / Nobody factory built at the taxpayers expense at Halbeath on the outskirts of our ancient capital of Dunfermline would have been the ideal parliament building.

83

Alexander,

Edinburgh 22/02/2007 09:41:21

It wouldn't be so bad if it had been properly built, functional, low on maintenance and attractive to look at.
Unfortunately it fails miserably on all four counts.

84

Edward,

22/02/2007 09:41:30

#59 GOM
It is up to you to ensure that the parliament is used, by electing the poeple you want to represent you, its as simple as that
There are some countries in the world that would die for having there own parliament and there own elected government, the fact is some people around the world have died what you and evry Scot has and is taken for granted
Scottish Devolved government of the second parliament has onl been in existance for just under 7 years, there are those that wold like to take that away.
Its up to the politicians voted in by you, to now use the building, debate the issues that concern Scotland most and work to imrove the country
To borrow a well known and sometimes well worn phrase 'ask not what your country can do for you, but ask what you can do for your country'-JFK

85

S - Edinburgh,

Edinburgh 22/02/2007 09:41:48

Maybe it did cost far more than we thought but watch and see how much it is going to cost to have the Olympic Games in London. I may be cynical but are we guaranteed that it will not cost us here in Scotland anything towards them? The buildings needed for that will cost far more than they are telling us now and I bet we won't hear the Scotsman whinging about that!

There are many more buildings in London which cost far more than our Parliament - Dome Dome Dome!

86

JayJay,

Glasgow - ish 22/02/2007 09:42:15

#69
I am sure I will be one of many to react to your condescending prose, but honestly, do you believe this tosh - "spectacular and life enhancing"??? Its a building for goodness sake. I am sorry but I lack the soul for anything other than my bowels to move when I look at this hotch potch of a building.
The problem with our country, generally, is that an effete elite make these sorts of statements and expects everone else to get back in their box and put their critical faculties on hold!
Well sorry. I think the bulk of the population would prefer to see our monies spent elsewhere. Grandiose build projects should be left to tinpot dictatorships in eastern Europe who feel that pillars or columns might distract people from the fact they can't buy a loaf of bread!

87

TheGlaswegian,

Edinburgh 22/02/2007 09:43:41

#79 JG Hear hear!

#69 '...expresses what are (or ought to be the aspirations of the nation)' eh? we've polluted or ancient capital city with an absolute eyesore.
Lets see how this bit of cold war russia looks like in 20yrs time. I would bet my mortgage that it'll be earmarked for demolition.

88

Maxie,

Clydebank 22/02/2007 09:44:13

I personally dont like the exterior of the building but I can understand that some people do and even I cant deny that it has won awards and is well quoted internationally.

Such is architecture, a bit like art in that beauty is in the eye of the holder.

However, the interior is magnificent in anyone's language.

regardless, as the article states, it was the former Scottish Office at Westminster that instigated the initial plans for the Parliament building handing the development over to the new Scots parliament without having finalised costs.

As now Head of that department, why is we Dougie Alexander's Office not considered a key player.

The SNP opposed the construction of a new parliament building but Labour and the Lib-Dems wanted a nice new flash environment along with their nice new flash mondeos.

89

C.U. Jimmy,

somewhere else 22/02/2007 09:44:38

Come on, admit it, it's a perfect metaphor for devolution - the erection by a few pygmy-minded nobodies of a vast, impractical and expensive structure with no real purpose other than to glorify the said nobodies.

90

jennie,

inverness 22/02/2007 09:45:31

#49 Edward - don't you remember the fuss when it was revealed that far from using timber and stone from Scotland, rainforest hardwoods without FSC certification were being imported? and I think there is marble in there, not from Scotland - put me right, some of you experts

anyway, come the revolution, that list of folk should be first, and then we can burn an effigy of Donald Dewar. A camel is a horse designed by a committee, and the Parliament building was a project managed by civil servants.

91

Edward,

22/02/2007 09:45:57

#67 Maisie
I actually agree with you, there is no point in getting upset about it, I think we should move on, lessons learned an all that. I accept that some will loath, some will like, some couldnt care less. The important thing for me anyway, is that we have a parliament, that should now be working for the people, the parliament is the building, the executive is the government that is housed in the parliament, if we dont like the executive, we vote them out at the next election and vote someone else in

92

josh,

edinburgh 22/02/2007 09:46:51

no-one is to blame. an act of god....... with a small g that is .

93

Edward,

22/02/2007 09:51:55

#90 jennie

Your ringht actually, regarding the timber, it was the oak (other timbers are Scottish), they needed to include oak, but couldnt find any in Scotland, which I though was a bit weird, so the 'outsourced'

94

The Strategist,

22/02/2007 09:54:51

It would have cost considerably less than this if they'd provided each MSP with a high speed private network connection so they didn't have to leave their constituency but use video conferencing and other network tools.

95

hootsmon,

Edinburgh 22/02/2007 09:54:52

There's two separate issues here: Was this a disgraceful example of terrible project and cost management, and is it a great building? I can't believe there's anyone who wouldn't say yes to the first question. However, as to the building itself, I think it is pretty special. What struck me when I visited was how different it felt to most important modern buildings - there's no big glitzy entrance or atrium, instead it feels much more intimate and personal. The main foyer where you come in actually reminds me of being in a small chapel. I agree with a previous poster that it really feels quite moving.

96

John McVey,

Thailand 22/02/2007 09:54:57

and all because England wanted to appease us. What a load of fraudulent waste!

97

Grizelda,

Edinburgh 22/02/2007 09:55:29

Most of you lot really need to get over yourselves.
The initial cost was way off....I say way off.

However, what we have is a great building of world stature. AND a parliament that isa doing a lot of good for Scotland and it's people. What we also have is a media obsessed with trivia who know the price of everything but the cost of nothing. Get over it I say and move forward or Scotland will remain in the past. Or is that the idea?

98

MWM,

Argyll 22/02/2007 09:59:46

We have our own Parliament, some people may not like it, but it is there now. Lets move on.

What about Thames House MI5's HQ, it was estimated that the projects would cost £252 million, in fact the final cost was more than twice that at £547 million. And that was only a refurbishment! Nobody seems to be shouting about that. Is it fear? I'll probably be getting investigated by the spooks already for even mentioning it!

99

Doh,

22/02/2007 10:01:04

The lesson that should have been learned is that all public contracts should be - well - public and open and wherever possible fixed contract.

If the builders dont like these terms of business they shouldnt tender.

Sadly the Fraser inquiry was also a waste of time and money.
What were its conclusions - its big, its complex - no single person it to blame. Clever man, very shrewd.

100

AJ,

Fife 22/02/2007 10:08:39

100 ya beauty

101

IWright,

Edinburgh 22/02/2007 10:09:46

#36 Dukie
"I hope all of you who thought this was a great idea will not be crying into your beer when your council tax doubles next year!
The biggest con EVER in British history."

Sadly not true by a long way. In terms of buildings try the Millenium Dome, in terms of parliamentary buildings try Portcullis House at Westminster (£22,000 for each tree). In general terms there is a whole catalogue of defence projects, and more recently IT projects.
Interestingly, its only Holyrood that gets such relentless negative coverage, the home of our reconvened parliament. I wonder why?

102

Maxie,

Clydebank 22/02/2007 10:11:07

I think most people are in agreement.

Civil Servants and politicians should not be involved in the construction of public buildings, whether in Scotland, England or anywhere else.

Numerous examples have been given of spiralling costs where they are involved all over the UK.
.#98 MWM giving yet another example.

Its those that suggest that it is somehow a peculiarly Scottish failing that are being disingenuous.

103

aljok.23,

Staffs 22/02/2007 10:11:15

"No-one responsible for the rise from the first estimate of between £10 million and £40 million to the eventual total lost their job. "

Not yet. Roll on May!

104

jennie,

inverness 22/02/2007 10:11:16

#93 Edward - yes, odd there was no oak in Scotland, we're surrounded by it here. But they probably never thought of looking North - it's a habit they've gotten into!

105

JG,

Fife 22/02/2007 10:17:33

Oh well! The Dome cost too much money, Portcullis House cost too much money so it's OK for us to waste too much money on this junk as well!!! Would you not have thought that lessons would/should have been learned?

106

jennie,

inverness 22/02/2007 10:24:58

Looking at the picture of the Parly building at the top of the article, I finally realised what it reminds me of - the weird costume Bakst designed for Nijinsky in the first production "L'Apres Midi d'un Faun".
It just looks a mess and I cannot think it will last fifty years, let alone as long as the many fine buildings elsewhere in Edinburgh. The Scottish climate in general, and Auld Reekie's in particular, is a savage adversary for any architect and Miralles wisnae fae hereaboots.
There is a beauty in architecture which arises naturally from a building which is thoughtfully designed to be completely suited to its purpose with an added eye to functionality and ecology. This building has none of that, just expensive finishes. And they even got a Dutchman to design the garden outside. I think this is all an elaborate joke by Westminster.

107

Jock Thomson,

Ayr 22/02/2007 10:25:25

Forget the £400 + million already squandered on this pile of useless and tasteless foreign stone and wood. This cash has long gone and the building itself is virtually worthless.

We need to worry about the ongoing incompetence, electioneering and assorted flights of fancy which will indeed make the original costs look trivial.

It costs us £1.5 million every week just to run it, imagine what could be achieved in your town with £1.5m then multiply by 52 towns each year.

Untold millions are disappearing fast into useless wind-farms

Almost £500m is wasted every year by Scottish Enterprise feeding consultants and shady operators who skew the marketplace for legitimate businesses.

They have already wasted £70m on a tram system which simply isn't going to happen

They are wasting billions on a 1950's healthcare system which simply cannot cope.

And they have been taken to the cleaners by entirely one-sided PFI deals
(I could go on)

They only thing they have managed to do successfully was to increase their own pay, pensions and expenses. (oh yes and give themselves a medal)

The question must be asked “If these people stopped appearing for “work” would they be missed?” I think not, we would survive. They clearly bring no benefit so why in heavens name must we be lumbered with them.

Vive le guillotine !

108

bill-alba,

fife 22/02/2007 10:26:38

IWright...you are correct...I suspect that all the complaints are coming from people who have no ambition for their country and are happy for us to remain in an unfair union.
For those who say the money could have been spent on roads and infrastructure...you are correct also...apart from the fact that if the parliament hadnt been build the money would definetely gone on infrastructure...in England not Scotland as its only since we had the parliament that any meaningfule upgrade in infrastructure in Scotland has been carried out..

109

Steve fae Chesser,

Edinburgh 22/02/2007 10:26:57

What a farce, tell us it wil cost £40M but costs £400M and they expect us to trust them to run the country, I don't think so, a Scottish Parliament was never needed, the UK is too small, our costs have gone up by 30% to over £1.1BILLION PER YEAR, bring back Westminster and the Scotland Office and spend the money that we are currently wasting on more useful things e.g. education health etc.

The one good thing out of this is if this is the farce surely there is no chance of the real disaster, Independence

110

Canning,

22/02/2007 10:29:21

SNP nutters trying to point score again. No surprise there then that seems to be their favourate party trick these days.

The fact of the matter is that the SNP have been shouting for a Scottish parliament for decades, then when they get one they complain that it cost too much to build. Just think if we become independant how much its going to cost to build an embassy building in every capital city accross the world. Hollyrood fiasco times 10 no bother.

111

Canning,

22/02/2007 10:31:42

#108 can you give me an example of this meaningful infrastructure? Would that include Holyrood because the last time I check that was a total farce?

112

IWright,

Edinburgh 22/02/2007 10:36:01

#109 #110
So the Holyrood experience means we shouldn't have devolution or independence, but you obviously don't mind being run from the Westminster that gave you the Millenium Dome and Portcullis House, etc ?

113

Edward,

22/02/2007 10:41:41

#106 jennie
Looking at that picture, it reminds me of the small fishing boats lined up on the shore that you sometimes see in Scotland

114

Canning,

22/02/2007 10:43:18

#113 yeah I am quite happy to be governed by Wesminster. What was wrong with the Scottish office? It was efficient, and done as far as I can see a good job.

I do agree that there are some merits for home rule but just now it looks like the costs well outweigh the benefits. If Scotland became independant it would lose much of its current world staure and become effectively a back-water. On top of that we would have to invest in rebuilding half of a state infrastucture which as Holyrood and the other buildings you stated doesnt come cheap.

Why can we not simply re-write the Acts of Union so that it is more up to date with current economics and politics? This would seem to me to be the most logical step to take.

115

Faye,

Scotland 22/02/2007 10:47:05

It is the most expensive scar Edinburgh's historic city.

If they can't keep hold of the purse strings on one building what faith can we have in economic control of an Independent Scotland?

Even the architect wasn't Scottish!

Saw the defects immediately on entry to the building. A glance up to the left showed badly fitted woodwork. Cowboys could have done a better job.

As usual, the taxpayer gets another raw deal.

The building is a constant embarrassment - a painful reminder to Scots of an abysmal failure by those in power.

The affairs of Scotland should have continued in the Old School, showing that Scots are canny and those elected had the people's best interests at heart.

Instead, their message to the people was let's look after ourselves first.

116

Edward,

22/02/2007 10:47:57

#115 Canning
'lose much of its current world staure and become effectively a back-water' What world stature, it doesnt have any. Currently Westminster sideline the Scottish Executive on everything in the EU
So I think a bit rich to think that Scotland wolud loose if it became independent, on the contrary its got everything to gain, by not having its voice filtered through Westminster

117

Maisie,

22/02/2007 10:49:56

Scotland does not have 'World Stature' Canning. If I am wrong in this, please enlighten me?

It is very doubtful the UK does either after the disastrous boot licking Blair forced us all into Iraq.

Scotland does however have a good reputation, which we have built over the years soley outside being part of 'Btitain' or the UK.

118

Dr. James Wilkie,

22/02/2007 10:54:35

I say nothing about the building's architectural merit or value for money. What concerns me is that this totally unnecessary project was labour's method of jumping onto the devolution bandwagon it had unsuccessfully tried to sabotage for so long, and was now seen to be inevitable.

I suggest that the best method of celebrating it would be to burn an effigy of Donald Dewar outsidde it every year on the anniversary of its opening.

119

Canning,

22/02/2007 10:54:49

#117 There are no gaurantees that Scotland would even be in the EU if it were independant.
Currently we are part of a UNION state that has a strong say in NATO and veto powers in the security council of the UN. This is significant world stature as far as I can see, but unfortunatly people seem not to understand this. Scotland has no international influence because one of Alex Salmonds cronies isnt sitting in the UN with his little saltire. If we were independant we would become a nobody back water state.

Devided we are weak. United we shall stand strong!

120

OM Reid,

Fife 22/02/2007 10:54:52

Okay, it was mismanaged, mishandled, overcharged etc, but at least at the end of the day we have a parliament building - built from scratch - which though not to everyone's taste, is admired by many. For almost twice the cost, London got the Millennium Dome. I rest my case.

121

Faye,

Scotland 22/02/2007 10:58:22

#114 Edward

Cumbernauld with boats!

122

spiderman,

Argyll 22/02/2007 11:01:21

What a crowd of mean-minded moaning minnies! In a UK that spends megabillions on London domes, wheels, Wembley, Olympic grandeur, all late in build and vastly overspent, why should we in Scotland get so excited and guilty about paying a fraction of a billion on a parliament?

123

Maisie,

22/02/2007 11:03:00

120. Canning

"Currently we are part of a UNION state that has a strong say in NATO and veto powers in the security council of the UN. This is significant world stature as far as I can see, but unfortunatly people seem not to understand this. Scotland has no international influence because one of Alex Salmonds cronies isnt sitting in the UN with his little saltire. If we were independant we would become a nobody back water state.

Devided we are weak. United we shall stand strong!"

It all depends on what sort of stature you would want saddled with, Ireland has a voice on the UN?! In my opinion it's high time the UK lost it's veto powers on the UN as well. There are far more powerful and larger nations who deserve it more than our piddly little Island.

I would much rather Scoptland had stature as a neutral country like Ireland, Switzerland, Finland ect ect.

Get over it. We are not a colonial power anymore thank God. That sad episode in our history was enough in itself to strip any stature we once had. Iraq ripped any remaining bits right off our back, we are red raw in the stature department. Get with the facts and the times.

124

Groucho,

22/02/2007 11:04:12

£83 pounds for every man woman and child in Scotland so that a bunch of useless w*****s can feather their own nests. They are nothing but a glorified county council

125

Canning,

22/02/2007 11:09:30

#124 you still seem to miss the point.

The UK as nation is punching above its weight. Why do you want to try to weaken us from this position of strength.

#125 well said. Have a look about Holyrood and you will see that there is little real political substance from any of the parties.

126

Maisie,

22/02/2007 11:14:29

No, I dont miss the point at all, on the contrary, why do we want to punch above our weight? That only involves us in wars and giving away HUGE amounts to developing countries when our own country is desperatly in need.

We do NOT stand united as it stands now and division does not mean falling down. Again, it depends on what you think our priorities as a nation are. My priorities are obviously vastly different from yours, I dont care about how the world percieves my 'stature' as a country, I would much prefer my own citizens thought I had stature if I was in government.

127

Hebb,

22/02/2007 11:17:33

I wasn't in favour of locating the new Parliament at Holyrood, down at the bottom of the Royal Mile, hidden away from the people. Siting it, in there spoke volumes about the level of Labour's ambition for Scotland's evolving democracy.

Calton Hill was the most appropriate place, expanding on the old Royal High School and creating a parliamentary quarter right in the heart of the capital, easily accessible to both the general public and MSPs by virtue of being close to the main train and bus stations. Think of the savings in David McCletchie taxi bills alone! Overall, certainly a greener and more cost effective option than the over -budget, Dewar-Blair project we had imposed on us before the first MSPs were even elected.

But Holyrood's there now. Unlike most of the contributors here I like the building, especially the debating chamber and in general the higgledy piggledy feel of the place as you walk around it, with its nooks and crannies. The interior in that sense fits in with the Old Town. It would have been possible of course to build a hollowed out Scandic Crown style shell for an exterior, but that wouldn't have made for a signature, 21st century Parliament building, merely an empty pastiche.

As with anything there are aspects of it which don't appeal, mainly the over use of concrete for the exterior walls but that aside I can live with it. I'm more interested in achieving full powers for the Parliament so that it's all Scotland's elected representatives who decide on such major projects in future and not one or two Labour MPs down in London.

But as S, MWM and others have pointed out, the cost of the Holyrood building pales into insignificance alongside the Dome, the Mi5 building refurbishment, Portcullis House, the Olympics etc, not to mention the billions of taxpayers' money that's already being spent on creating the conditions for mass murder in Iraq and the £70bn that's going to be thrown away over the coming years on t

128

Canning,

22/02/2007 11:22:06

Judging by the current crop of politicians in Holyrood the government would soon have little stature amoung its own citizens, I have no doubt about that.

Also its important for a country to have as much political and economic clought as it can get as we now operate in a global economy, but that might be too dificult for someone with a Jacobite political stance to understand.

129

conservative,

Fife 22/02/2007 11:22:09

#126 you have it in a nutshell. Why anyone would want to trade a position of influence for a position of absolute unimportance is beyond me.

And we need look no further than Holyrood to see the kind of lunacy our little tinpot politicians would get into without the the overall UK government.

Jingoism isn't much of a substitute for success.

130

Maisie,

22/02/2007 11:27:18

130. conservative

So you are saying that if we had independence, Scotland, England and Wales would be totally unimportant?

I take it all the other countries with no seat on the UN are unimportant as well then? You write off most of the worlds countries with that statement.

131

Maxie,

Clydebank 22/02/2007 11:30:11

The vast majority of Scots voted for a Scots parliament with tax varying powers.

The vast majority of Scots now want the Scots parliament to have more powers transferred from Westminster to Holyrood, with support for Independence never being higher.

The unionist want to blame the Scots parliament for the Scottish parliamentary building which was in fact the "brainchild" of the Scottish Office and its construction was agreed at Westminster before the Scots parliament even existed!

They also want to ignore the squandering of £billions more in construction ventures by Westminster elsewhere in the UK.

Practically every Government Department at Westminster is in a financial and departmental mess, from Defence to the Home Office to the NHS.

And that small ever dwindling band of unionists think Westminster is worth keeping!

132

Ian G,

Edinburgh 22/02/2007 11:41:03

Alternatively, you could accept the building for what it finally is; a magnificent and original triumph of art and engineering.
But, then where is the fun in that.
Far better to be resentful and add it to the poke of chips on the nations shoulders.

The cost was ridiculous! But then so is the offices for MPs at Westminster.
MI5 and MI6 buildings and the Millennium Dome to use just for one year.
Its time to draw a line and move on.
The building is bloody marvelous.
Labour choose to build it there they choose to spend the money they chose the architect and the voters voted em all back in twice.
If people where that upset they would have voted em out would they not?

Draw a line under it lets all move on the Scottish Parliment building is wonderful putting the cost aside.
Australians felt the same with the Opera House now they all love it.
I like it now I don't need to wait another 30 years.
Then we did not have the full cost of the Westminster Offices in the press everyday.
Or the MI5 MI6 buildings they all cost £400M.

If anyone really wishes for heads to roll vote Labour out come May, but then the voters have had the chance to do that twice already.

133

Maci,

22/02/2007 11:44:01

If Steve fae Chesser, 109, knew what he was talking about he would realise that it was the Westminster and Scottish Office dictatorships who wanted the £40 - £400m farce as he calls it and for precisely the reason to knock independence off its tracks, a result that he now seems to relish.
Despite his well justified plea for investment in education he seems blissfully content to have our kids struggle from the base of every pertinent social league table while £ billions pour into east London renewal projects under the guise of sport for all. Meantime our city playing fields vanish.
No country is too small whatever small minds within it might think.
The good thing is that independence means no hiding place and no excuse, a disaster for some, no doubt.

134

Name,

22/02/2007 11:44:34

What a pile of horse muck that building is!

135

dyon gollins's back,

Abbeymount 22/02/2007 11:47:40

#133 Ian G -- quite agree with you entirely; now it's time to build a magnificent new nation with a set of new ideas and aspirations for all the people (including those who don't like the parliament building) not forgetting to take all the powers necessary for a modern nation in order to do so!

136

Unbeliever,

22/02/2007 11:48:44

Seem to remember a news item a couple of weeks ago.
The new children's hospital in Glasgow was going overbudget. The solution. Reduce the size.
Nice to know where our leaders priorities lie.

137

Unbeliever,

22/02/2007 11:50:57

133 - Ian G
Unfortunately in order to vote this lot out, you have to vote another lot in. And they call it democracy.

138

conservative,

Fife 22/02/2007 11:51:14

#131 Maisie

No - nothing really to do with the UN although I do think that a seat there is important (and of course all countries have one, you're thinking of something else).

My point is only that a tiny country with no industry, a dwindling supply of natural resources and a demonstrable ability to not be able to manage even the tiny number of presently devolved activities would be much better off sticking with it's larger, more successful partner. At least that way the benefit-junkies will still eat.

The only people who don't think that (it seems to me) are the ones who haven't been successful under the present state of things and have no more chance under any other.

139

Steve fae Chesser,

Edinburgh 22/02/2007 11:51:22

re 134 Maci - but as part of the UK we are a stronger and more economically stable nation and I assure you my points are based on fact, I will on this occasion ignore your ignorance!

140

Neil,

9% Growth Party 22/02/2007 11:52:19

"Tam Dalyell is wicked and alarmist to suggest that the cost of the Parliament Building will be one penny over £40,000,000."
Donald Dewar

Says it all.

141

S.Macleod,

Inverness 22/02/2007 11:52:33

"closure", NOT A CHANCE!

People have a right to the truth.

142

Boab,

Glasgow 22/02/2007 11:53:26

Settle down everyone, it only cost us £80 each.

When Scotland gets independence we should chip in the same amount each year for a similar 'folly': say, a collosal statue of a weeping Tony Blair made of cannabis resin, with the words 'NAE LUCK' on the base.

That should kick-start the tourist industry again.

143

Maisie,

22/02/2007 12:00:46

139. conservative

Sorry, I meant a veto on the UN.

Still all the same, you dont have any confindence in Scotlands ability to go it alone, I do. Forgetting the oil altogether, what has Lithuania got that we dont in terms of natural resources? What about Ireland? There are far too many countries to name. You are just an eternal pessimist when it comes to your own countrymen and women.

I for one totally believe we can go it alone and even IF and its a very very doubtful IF. we messed up, then we only have ourselves to blame. If we dont go for independence we will never know if we are the childish subsidy junkies people like you are always intimating or boldlystating we are.

Roll on May.

144

Steve fae Chesser,

Edinburgh 22/02/2007 12:04:40

re 144 - Lithuania, well if you want to be part of a country as successful as Lithuania, then bash on, I for noe don't so lets remain with the union

145

Flabskin,

Mbra' 22/02/2007 12:05:03

#130 conservative
"And we need look no further than Holyrood to see the kind of lunacy our little tinpot politicians would get into without the the overall UK government."

If you want to be controversial at least try not to be pig ignorant.

It was the 'overall UK government' in the shape of Donald Dewar and his cronies that foisted this unwanted monstrosity on Scotland. I twas nothing to do with people or politicians in Scotland. Their objective was to score a political point at the expense of the SNP - probably the most expensive political point that's ever been scored. But then they weren't paying for it.

146

W Smith,

Middle East 22/02/2007 12:10:38

1)£8.6 million for scaffolding and £12.7 million for landscaping!

I would love to hear the opinions from Scottish Quantity Surveyors around the globe about some of the costs - we could get our own enquiry going!

2) Sorry folks, I don't agree with those who complain that the 'Scottish people weren't consulted'. You just need politicians and civil servants with lots of PRIVATE sector experience - its in the private sector people get sacked for incompetence!

3) It was the lack of experience when it comes to drawing up CONTRACTS that may have been the fundamental problem. This opened the door for Bovis Lend Lease to make a nice profit - legally!

4) In my humble opinion, there was probably kick-backs involved here. The construction industry is one of the most corrupt industries in the world - I should know I work in this industry.

5) Any enquiry that doesn't involve checking individual bank accounts for 'unusually high' deposits or transfers is not really an enquiry - IT'S JUST A WHITEWASH.

6) With people like Cathy Jamieson (art student/social worker) as Justice Minister - any problems we have with inexperienced people in positions of leadership will not go away. It means nothing has basically changed in Scotland - the cock-ups will continue.


BTW
Millionaire Sir Thomas Dalyell studied ECONOMICS at Cambridge and when he retired he left Scotland with the worst performing economy in the EU - well done Tam!

147

Doh,

22/02/2007 12:20:07

Dinae worrae abit the buldin -its jist the jimmy centur turned upside doon and inside oot. Gin chek oot yon auld cobblers on thur wabsite

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/vli/language/scots/inde...

Aye.

148

S.Macleod,

Inverness 22/02/2007 12:20:17

It's one Sexy building.

149

Flabskin,

Mbra' 22/02/2007 12:25:02

#149

"It's one Sexy building."

I agree. It certanly f****d the whole of Scotland.

150

rab, glasgow,

22/02/2007 12:28:12

58. Peter 100 /Spot on .She [Sarah Davidson]
did not complete her contract when in charge of the folyrood farce, she left early to travel around the world,on her return she was given the role of head of the newly trumped up scottish tobacco control division,the job was not advertised, she started on a salary of £66.000 a year.
London has control of tobacco in the uk, so I dont have a clue what she or the scottish tobacco control division actualy bloody well do.
She is a personal freind of one andy kerr, who stated that the folyrood building could not have happened without her.This labour mob look after their own and dont give a sh*t about how much of our money it costs. Roll on may.

151

Maxie,

Clydebank 22/02/2007 12:28:18

#147 W. Smith

The BBC opened its new Media complex in London last year. It cost a total of £800 million.

Check out the individual costings of that. You can get them on various sites, excluding the BBC's of course!

152

Maci,

22/02/2007 12:29:20

You're ahead of yourself this time 140.
As part of the UK, we have a certain level of strength and economical stability based on fact.
Whether these levels will improve under independence is not based on fact but on whether the conditions for improvement will prevail. At this stage, a matter of opinion rather than fact.
I happen to think they will improve immeasurably.

153

Allan(handofgod137),

22/02/2007 12:31:54

Demolish the building, whit the occupants in situ. If this is the sort of mess we get on one wee shed, then let's hope we never go down the independance route.

154

S.Macleod,

Inverness 22/02/2007 12:32:23

#150. Flabskin

"It certanly f****d the whole of Scotland.",

bollocks it did.

155

Steve fae Chesser,

Edinburgh 22/02/2007 12:43:42

153 Maci - so you want to go ahead with independence without any factual evidence it will make us better off (or not), wow you are a bit of a gambler and I'm not prepared to risk all for no certain return, thankfully the independents won't win the next election.

By the way if you are looknig for facts about independence, ask the CBI they've got well lets just say they raise a few concerns

156

Maxie,

Clydebank 22/02/2007 12:49:05

Conservative says:

"My point is only that a tiny country with ...a dwindling supply of natural resources ... would be much better off sticking with it's larger, more successful partner. At least that way the benefit-junkies will still eat."

Speaks for itself really.

Dwindling resources?

As is well documented, there is as much oil remaining in the Scottish sector of the north sea as has been extracted over the past thirty years, the only difference being that it is worth twice as much today.

You might have heard Alistair Darling's statement that this year is a "bumper" year for new explorations and new licences in the north sea.

I know it doesnt fit in with your view of Scots but it happens to be the case.

You might also have heard that nine new licences were awarded just yesterday for "renewable" contracts, including the largest wave-power complex in the world in Scotland.

This follows the start of the largest wind turbine development in Europe being given the go-ahead in Scotland.

These renewables aside, and there are scores of them already on stream, all of Scotland's power stations are currently running at under capacity. However, the country is already still producing more electricity than we need with the excess being exported to England and Northern Ireland, to stop their lights going out.

You might not like that but it happens to be true.

Subsidy junkies?

157

Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 22/02/2007 12:54:24

"The Scots are a strange race of people with a national inferiority complex? So much genuine greatness which has benefitted the Anglo-Saxon race. It is a paradox that we [the English] have completely subsumed the Scots? Yet, their [the Scots]contribution to British and world politics, science, education, civil engineering, religion, and foremost of all, the English gene pool, has been immense, and in complete disproportion to their numbers. One of the greatest dynastical and political conquests took place when our forefathers incorporated the Scots into Great Britain! Our ancestors once claimed we had 'catched the Scots' and that is how it must remain for England's future as a great nation" Winston Churchill in an extract from his History of the English Speaking Peoples.
I suspect Churchill was spot on in his description of the Scots, especially after reading the majority of these cringing comments? Lachie Todd.

158

Colin G,

Edinburgh 22/02/2007 12:58:12

Who is to blame? Well it starts with everyone who voted for Labour and those who voted for the Parliament in the referendum.

Dewar is to blame for his personal choice of the site and architect (and her blame extends to those who allowed Dewar to bring his pet architects back into the 'competition). Those cronies involved here are also to blame.

The politicians who continued to vote for the continuing construction as costs escalated are to blame, as is David Steel and the civil servants and the builders/architects for allowing costs to escalate.

My opinion is that it is hideous and scars Edinburgh. The awards it has won are the sort of nonsense awards handed by architects to each other. Some may like the design and think that they got value for money. I disagree. It looks as though it will not last. Some of the other follies mentioned such as MI5, Portcullis, Olympics, Dome etc at least had some sort of economic relevance. However, there was no need for a 'world class' building/statement etc at least while everyone in Scotland doesn't have gold taps etc.

One final point. If the 'value' of the building outside of the errors made etc is roughly £350m - what is the actual value of the place? Land value minus clearance costs? £25m?

159

S.Macleod,

Inverness 22/02/2007 13:05:27

160. Colin G

"Who is to blame?"

Me, my bad!

I voted for Labour once.

MMMMmmmmm, sexy building though!

160

Peter Cherbi,

Edinburgh 22/02/2007 13:05:30

#158. Rulesbutnotrulers, East Lothian

Spot on

Maybe we should have "a very Scottish coup" and take back the building for a hospital ... then back to the Royal High after May - and bill Westminster for the damage !

161

Maci,

22/02/2007 13:16:53

156 - Despite your blind denial, the CBI, or any other number cruncher, cannot give facts on the future, only opinions from today's facts. Predictably, conservative/unionist/protectionist thinking tends toward preservation of the status quo, however miserable.
In line with the natural instinct of mankind to survive on responsibility and accountability, the nearest to facts to support independence is that other similar sized, but less naturally resourced nations have thrived on gaining independence and none that I am aware of would willingly relinquish it.
Bring it on!

162

Neilb243,

Glasgow 22/02/2007 13:25:34

It seems pretty clear that if you put this building alongside the millenium dome, it seems like value for money!
It's great that everyone has an opinion on it, but to all those who have come on an slandered it and want it knocked down - remember that people have put years and years of there lives into this project. I don't think it helped Enric Morales' health, and he subsequently died during the project. Have a little bit of decorum!
We are all entitled to our opinions, but at least before you publicise them, go to the parliment and take a look at it!
Personally, we needed something to annouce ourselfs - that we were taking control of our own affairs! The fact that the Parliment has won the Stirling prize shows how great an achivement it is, and something that we should try and be proud off!

163

Maxie,

Clydebank 22/02/2007 13:28:23

#159 Lachie Todd

Lachie,

Firstly, I dont think you should confuse the situation.

Some people genuinely dont like the building aesthetically and some do.

Most people are angered at the inflated cost of the building but a few dont mind.

These are perfectly okay views to hold.

The vast majority of Scots support the Scottish parliament having more powers with support for Independence having never been higher.

Dont confuse that with views on the Scottish Parliament building.

Of course, some unionists want to use the building to attack the parliament. However, most unionist posters on these message boards dont even live in Scotland and many of those that do are involved in politics.

The more extreme unionist views on these message boards dont even represent the views of most Scottish unionists, most of whom would be appalled by some of the comments made in the name of unionism.

The unionists are panicking and becoming quite aggressive and intolerant...More power to their ever-dwindling number of elbows!

164

ddmc,

22/02/2007 13:32:27

"IVe taken the tour inside the building and as a Scot, Im very proud of the building, many freinds and family from home and overseas are also proud of the building"

So it should be for £400 million
#150 spot on
Can anyone answer why we needed a 'Wurld Class' parly building for a bunch of 2nd rate politicos, The old royal high was always the most logical choice but Donald Dewar was always against it, he's one of the main people to blame, along with all the civil servants who toadied along with his vision. NI & welsh assemblies cost a fraction of the cost & lets face it they like to call it the Scottish parliament but in reality it is an assembly just like the Welsh & N Irish have. As usual people in Scotland delude themselves as to what it's role is. I'm getting sick of all this 'wurld class' & 'lessons will be learned' excuses to justify overbudget delivery, behind timescales etc etc. It's also interesting to note that this is the only major construction project in Scotland that was not put up for PFI, Labour hypocrites

165

Doh,

22/02/2007 13:45:17

oh am saying is ait louuks az if yon arcatechter wiz kirrie jookit -
but thon gin an yizd his richt hand tae drawe up thon planns
amm jist nae shure hi culd drawe a stricht line

166

Andrew_10101,

22/02/2007 13:46:00

>>Bomb-blast testing: £222k<<

Gosh! You don't need to bomb the place. All you need to do is sneeze and the ceiling falls down.

But don't worry. Whatever money was wasted, and however much scandal is involved, it will never top the outrage perpetrated by the European Parliament every day of the year, as they haven't heard of double entry bookkeeping !

167

GOM,

22/02/2007 13:47:27

#94 Edward. I agree with you in principle - having a parliament is a great privilege, but we already had one in Westminster. I don't think that whoever we vote into Holyrood will do much better than the existing lot. I believe that suggesting the dissolution of the Scottish Parliament comes under the heading of doing "what I can for my country"
And my question "What has the parliament done for us?" remains unanswered.

168

JG,

Fife 22/02/2007 13:49:07

#158 rulesbutnotrulers
I agree with you! There are far too many politicians. We are wasting money keeping them going (look at the financial story from yesterday). The old high school is a fine building and Donald Dewar was well out of order in this fiasco. We should certainly have listened to Tam Dalyell - he always came across as a bit of an old grump, but was right about quite a lot of things - especially this!!!

169

Miss Jean Brodie,

22/02/2007 13:59:01

"The Holyrood saga has been a long haul, it's been wearing, it has also been damaging, in my view, to Scottish self-confidence in our ability to run our own affairs. And that is why I use the word 'closure' today in its full double meaning." - GEORGE REID

Here’s the Key Point - Scotland COULD run it’s own affairs better and more self confidently than this fiasco run by the BRITISH !

It ghs nor damaged my self confidence - only heightened the farce of getting a little allowance of governance and not the FULL MONTY - George Reid - Bile yer heid!

170

nolimits,

Canada 22/02/2007 13:59:18

A Project manager with no construction experience?....shudder. Now, THAT is a scary thought.

171

Choose a nameSteven,

Saltcoats 22/02/2007 14:07:26

#37 - "a confident expression of a modern scotland" - What the hell does that MEAN? In your nebulous arty-speak what would an alternative such as a couple more hospitals equate to? Sack them all, sell the site for residential development. Dont let any of them do any more damage

172

Not so happy trams....,

West End - Edinburgh 22/02/2007 14:08:53

Well where does one start. I, like the majority of speakers on this subject can hardly stand the sight of this building but too be honest its the cost/costs incurred that get right up my nose! No#37 hasn't a clue but No#129 is spot on, currently there's 129 MSPS (can someone tell me honestly what influence they hold/carry in Scotland today)? And just so everyone is singing from the same song sheet we are no longer a democracy because this bunch of loons keep coming up with ideas on how to spend and change Scotland today. It will finish at closer to 1Billion on on the trams (I know I used to work there) the new Bridge - my god that will be a fiasco (we will all be back writing on that subject). Can anyone tell me why no other buildings - that are empty then and still now weren't used (what about the old GPO at the bottom of the Bridges) a beautiful building with enough space to accommodate them. Why don't we all start up a demo and show the local government that we don't come from E Europe and can't be bullied into submission, we are proud Scots and we should stand up and counted. Who's with me.!!

173

I'm no really here,

22/02/2007 14:08:53

Don't worry. If it was built with the same expertise as the Forth Road Bridge, It'll fall down by itself in about 25 years.

174

Edward,

22/02/2007 14:12:06

#169 GOM
Ah a unionist
thats unfortunate, as Scotland can do better without the union, therefore Scotland does not need Westminster

175

Frodo the Scot,

middle earth 22/02/2007 14:15:28

Never forget rule No #1 IF you are dissatisfied with the current government......DONT RE-ELECT THEM

176

Frodo the Scot,

middle earth 22/02/2007 14:19:24

Sounds like Americas $600.00 hammer
or $25.00 band-aid

177

lorren,

USA 22/02/2007 14:23:53

Looks, like it was built from a lego set.

178

joan giles,

kingston ontario canada 22/02/2007 14:29:21

For that cost it is an ugly monstrosity and the future scots will say the same what an almighty cost for that Not worth looking at

179

Choose a nameSteven,

Saltcoats 22/02/2007 14:31:27

"Unionist" isnt a bad word. I want LESS government to me the imbeciles (and lets face it the quality is pathetic) at Edinburgh should go. I dont need a Scottish Parliament to be Scottish - its a frame of mind to me. I dont need ANY politician fighting my battles for me. And there are far too many bin the MSPs and the councillors. MPs and MEPs are plenty. Those who think that a Scottish Parliament is going to change their lot are severely deluded. An improved Scottish industry might though and to suggest that that mob at Holyrood know about business is a farce. Sack them all and slash local corporation taxes or build hospitals or put money into commercialising University research - anything but lining the pockets of these clowns. ANYTHING!

180

Andrew Allan,

22/02/2007 14:37:09

A 7ft 4in silicon bronze statue of Thatcher in the members' lobby of the House of Commons, that sticks a couple of fingers up to all in Scotland, suddenly makes our own parliament seem totally worth the money spent on it. Thinking about it, it would still be worth it at twice the price.

181

Stoo,

Borders 22/02/2007 14:43:33

""Unionist" isnt a bad word. I want LESS government to me the imbeciles (and lets face it the quality is pathetic) at Edinburgh should go. "

Excellent, lets get rid of Westminster - et voila less Govt.

The quality in Westminster is just as bad - the problem we have is poor quality politicians.

182

Andrew Allan,

22/02/2007 14:43:45

Choose a nameSteven, #181.Surely your own Tory friends in England, before a Scottish Parliament, crippled Scotland with everything you have been advocating. What we have now has started to work, just not enough because of the restraints from Westminster. Independence on the other hand would give us much of what you ask for.

183

Andrew Allan,

22/02/2007 14:50:18

If the quotes handed in for the costs of building were realistic, the difference between the quote and the final cost would be much smaller. In fact the cost being realistic should be stuck at, and if the time of the finishing goes over there should be fines. This should all be in the contracts.

184

Choose a nameSteven,

Saltcoats 22/02/2007 14:51:26

#182 - what are you talking about? Did Thatcher ruin Scotland? Not for me I, as a worker, had more pounds in my pocket each week. Industries were made to be accountable to themselves under Thatcher - no more of my hard earned money used to prop up industries which could not compete on a increasingly Global stage. If there was any damage done to Scotland under Thatchers administration it wasnt because of Thatcher, it was because of an inherent need to turn to the Government for help which was no longer wearing it. Accountability - there is none for those involved in Holyrood or those who blame Thatcher for Scotland's failed industries.

185

Phil o Brian,

22/02/2007 14:57:14

Sorry, joined this one a bit late.
One thing that bothers me about the people arguing that £400m is not much and we should get over it. That means that everytime we are lied too by politicians we should just shrug our shoulders and say oh well. Just because the people were lied too in England as well over the Dome etc makes it OK?
We get the politicians we deserve.

186

Stoo,

Borders 22/02/2007 15:00:50

"If there was any damage done to Scotland under Thatchers administration it wasnt because of Thatcher"

I am sure there is medication you can take to help you with your delusions.

187

Julia,

here and now 22/02/2007 15:15:17

This monstrosity is a blight on the Scottish landscape and those who built it should be buggered! HOW MUCH?????? Good Lordy mercy!

188

IWright,

Edinburgh 22/02/2007 15:16:01

#187
Phil - that's not what we're saying, the building cost too much and there was some dodgy things going on. These things should be investigated and the people responsible dealt with appropriately. But some people are using this as a reason not only for rejecting independence but devolution as well.
I have earlier tried to point to the basic lack of logic in saying that because of Holyrood we can't or shouldn't govern ourselves but should be governed from Westminster, when Westminster has produced numerous examples of the Holyrood experience, often far worse.
You can loathe the building, but loathing yourself (not you personally) and Scotland is just pathetic.

189

IWright,

Edinburgh 22/02/2007 15:18:42

#190
What I should have added is that some of the comments in the above posts are racist, regardless of the identity of the posters. Scots being racist about Scots are the worst.

190

cabrach loon,

inverness 22/02/2007 15:34:56

a scandal, as soon as the overruns started to show up investigation and review should have occurred. The civil servants involved should have been fired in disgrace and still can be. The architects fees should be re-reviewed as should the supervision team costs and profits.
Maybe it could look better if painted a neutral beige all over so it no longer looks like a spotted cow.
Having spent 47 years of my life in civil engineering design and supervision this whole item apalls me, politicians and political promises cause inefficient work and overruns and should be sat on and stopped.
Scotland's disgrace yet reading from the start the now defunct Scottish office seem to have started the rot and waste.
Just another typical example of the present nugov attitude to fiscal responsibility. Never mnind we will just create another tax to take care of it says Gordon and Tony. How much more of this can the country survive though before the debts collapse it?

191

kameroon,

lanarkshie 22/02/2007 15:37:16

Aye close it, demolish it,but where are all the puppets going to talk their shoit?Doon the park?

192

Jeffrey Walker,

Fairfax, Virginia, USA 22/02/2007 15:39:05

You have just footed the bill for a poltical boondoggle of, dare I say, American proportions. It seems that the Scottish Parliament buiding suffered from the same phenomenon as often impacts upon many major military projects--everyone wants to add their favorite odd requirement, capability, bell, whistle, widget, or pet rock. It's amazing how quickly these nice-to-have addiitons snowball into huge additional costs. (Didn't someone decide that MSPs should have lovely individual window seats in their offices in which to loll about and think deep political thoughts? What ever happened to the corner pub?) So much for all the jokes about cheap Scotsmen...

193

herioter,

Lancashire 22/02/2007 15:39:20

Remember when we Scots were supposed to be frugal. Seems to have changed somewhat

194

Maxie,

22/02/2007 15:50:08

Jeez!...Its like a wee British nationalist gang hut in here!

195

eric,

22/02/2007 15:55:40

My brother in law is English and One day my sis bought a joint of meat out butchers he went and took it back because he thought there was to much fat in it ,Got a whole £1 off,he also turns clothes outside in when shopping so he can try get money off ,Tight of what!

196

Canning,

22/02/2007 15:57:44

Give the Scottish paly tax raising powers and watch them pull their socks up. Would they perhaps be doing this to try to sneak more expenses out of the public pocket in their socks. And what is the Scottish government going to do with its mighty tax raising powers? Tax us more I would guess.

Im all for independance but it has to be staged and progressive, we cant just wake up one day after an election and say we are independant. For it to be a smooth transition we have to achieve it over at least a 15 to 20 year period ,whats the sudden rush?

197

AJ,

Fife 22/02/2007 15:58:38

200 ya beezer

198

kameroon,

lanarkshie 22/02/2007 16:00:23

And how much did the nuclear bunker cost? are they trying to tell us something?

199

Stoo,

Borders 22/02/2007 16:00:40

"Im all for independance"

My goodness Canning, has there been a Damascian conversion in your household since your morning posts?

200

GOM,

22/02/2007 16:04:51

#176 Edward. You're going round in circles. And still you haven't answered the question.

201

Canning,

22/02/2007 16:11:45

#202

No thres not if you read my posts from this morning you will realise that Im talking about the present moment. In the long term it probably would be benificial for Scotland to be independant but not right now. To take a sudden leap from being part of the Union to becoming independant in May would be economic suiside. I think that there has to be a step by step process so as to spread the burden on the public pocket.

Also I have little to no confidence in the ability of our current crop of Holyrood MSPs to run the country, they are still a bunch of overhyped councillors and that shows.

The other problem that I have with a SNP lead independance is that they havn't really been taken to task yet on their policies other than being independant and prefere to just try to point score agains the Labour party.

202

FirstBusiness,

22/02/2007 16:13:04

Anyone that believed the Parliament would cost £40m must have been blind.
The original estimate, if indeed it was an estimate, and not just a figure plucked out of the air, was always unrealistic.
The Standard Life building has been used as a comparison costing some £100m+; but the locations bear no comparison, nor do the designs, nor does it have a debating chamber. The SL building is just another typical office block similar to thousands of others across the world and built on a relatively open site.
So on that basis alone the Parliament original budget realistically should have been substantially more than £100m+
The location eventually selected, the changes made after the contract was awarded eg the increased accommodation, parking and security requirements, and the resultant substantial delays all added to the final cost.
So the buildings are in fact good value for money. I for one believe a country's parliament should be unique and I like what we have, its modern and bright.
In my opinion the old RHS building suggested as being adequate and far more beautiful a building is too small, very dull, grey and from a past century.
Also, how much was Westminster over budget when it was built. If I remember correctly some 15 or 16 times. So we have not done too badly.
As for the occupants, who's to blame for them being there? Would you believe, US?

203

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 22/02/2007 16:14:41

Heyho .. so these MSP guys and plumped up Cooncilers can't manage a fairly straightforward building project without screwing it up to a degree that defies all belief ... and there's folk who want them to run the country ... oh dear.

The safest thing to do would just be to close the Scottish parliment so they can't rollocks up anything else .. it would save the taxpayer a billion or two and stop the stupid and bigotted legistlation conveyor belt.

204

Stoo,

Borders 22/02/2007 16:27:29

"To take a sudden leap from being part of the Union to becoming independant in May would be economic suiside."

Why?

What difference between this May and another 15yrs of ruinous union.

"Also I have little to no confidence in the ability of our current crop of Holyrood MSPs to run the country, they are still a bunch of overhyped councillors and that shows."

And 15yrs would make a difference? I dont think so, instead of our country sending pols to Westminster they would stay in Scotland - not that Westminster MPs of any flavour are any better.

You're merely making excuses against change as you are worried by it - fair enough, but dont come out with outlandish statements of economic suicide unless you have something to back it up.

205

Stoo,

Borders 22/02/2007 16:36:28

"bigotted legistlation conveyor belt."

Goodness me you really are a fool Voldemort.

206

Mofo-ya,

New York 22/02/2007 16:38:01

I find a Simpsons quote appropriate for this joke, note this if from token Scot 'Willie':
Brothers and sisters are natural born enemies! Like Englishmen and Scots! Or Welshmen and Scots! Or Japanese and Scots! Or Scots and other Scots! Damned Scots! They ruined Scotland...

207

morris,

edinburgh 22/02/2007 16:43:10

Whilst its easy to criticise especially now that" he "has departed, and cannot defend his decisions,the simple fact is Donald Dewar listened to nobody, and he alone favoured this design, and site,and everybody believed that the Royal High School was the building that would be used until Donald decided otherwise.WHY?

The reasons for this will never be known,certainly never justified,but I think it more than coincidence that Scottish & Newcastle were moving out of Edinburgh big time,and the perfect site for our intended parliament (in a city which boasts some of the finest architecture on the planet)just happened to be the former brewery.Amazing coincidence ?I think not.
Couple that to the estimated cost (which Tam Dalyell ridiculed from day 1)and the subsequent betrayal of whatever it was that the constitutional convention spent all those years finalising,(except that nothing was finalised or if it was it was abandoned later)and you have a contender for screw up of all time,or was it?
Personally I smell a rat,but of course cannot jusitify this.Only the late Donald Dewar knows what really went on,and the statue to him in Glasgow is going to look very foolish if it ever comes to light that there were irregularities even greater than the complete disaster we already know about.
Time to close a curtain on this? I think so because the only thing that could possibly emerge now would embarrass Scotland even further,and the Constitutional Convention and the mess that resulted have already paraded us in public,and we did not look good.
Anybody that believes that the Constitutional Convention (which refused the inclusion of independence in possible options)was a democratic organisation needs their head examined.
Donald Dewar (and his London bosses ) knew exactly what was happening from day one and even the Labour and Liberal activists were probably kept in the dark.
Very much a case of mind over matter.
London does no

208

Peter McWilliam,

Florida 22/02/2007 16:43:50

# 69 absolutely right on! The money's spent, the parliament is there so just get on with it. It's over. Now to get it right as far as its powers are concerned. Let it be a real parliament governing a sovereign nation instead of this rubbish we have at present.

209

S.Macleod,

Inverness 22/02/2007 16:44:38

Contrary to what many negative posters in this thread are trying to do the amount of positive posts is very encouraging.

210

Broddr,

Dunfermline 22/02/2007 16:45:57

Whether or not it is an attractive building is immaterial.

The bottom line is that once again, the powers that be lied about the cost right from the beginning.

They are still lying about it now.

No-one is to blame? If it was a private sector job then a lot of people would have been hung long before now.

It is yet another case of "it doesn't matter because it is not our money. Ha ha ha!"

I agree a lot of English projects and others in Scotland cost more and give less but that does not mean we should let the MSPs off with this one.

Let me tell you all this, I am an electrician and working on the building for almost two years.

Where did most of the money go?

It went on putting stuff in and ripping it out again as someone changed thier mind, time and time again.

It went on hardware which was bought before it was needed and then ruined because it was sitting in a damp building site.

The plans constantly changing even though equipment and materials were already bought.

It went on an unbelievable amount of "suits" wandering around day in, day out doing absolutely nothing to justify thier £200,000 salary.

The money on stupidity, mis-management and ineptitude.

The three things all poliiticians in Britian are world leaders at.

211

Canning,

22/02/2007 16:49:30

#207

the difference is that if you give the Scottish parly 15 to 20 years it allows it some time to mature and some of the better politicians may actually choose to go there rather than down to Westminster. A more staged approach to independance would make more sence than an all out independance up front.

For example we could get our own voice in the EU then in the UN. You are forgetting that we would need representitives in all these areas as well, so it would give us some time to properly develop. You have to learn to walk before you can run. We also have to gaurantee that we will still be in the EU if we become independant.

Also there is the issue of public services which will no doubt incur some cross border juggling with the rest of the UK, things such as passport, pension service buildings and all the rest of it. This all takes time and costs money.

And on the issue of money do we stick with the pound or join the Euro or develop our own currency. (I am aware that we have our own notes as it is but they are not recognised as currency outside Scotland, and im sure there would be other complications involved in that)

These are just a few issues which would as far as I can see take a considerable amount of time to negotiate smooth over. As I have have asked before, what is the rush?

212

morris,

edinburgh 22/02/2007 16:56:11

214
Im sure others can give a more detailed explanation,but it has been confirmed that all four member nations of the UNited Kingdom would cease to be in the United Kingdom since it no longer exists,but this does NOT affect the memberships of the EU,and each would have to declare their wish to remove,otherwise they are still in .
THis has been an opinion given by many senior people on a number of occasions (although Labour throw it in the arena every election) You dont need to be very bright to work out why.

213

Chuck Boyle,

Dunn Loring, Virginia 22/02/2007 17:04:07

What a glorious structure. We had the opportunity to visit the new building during a recent holiday to Scotland. As an engineer, I found the design and technical accomplishments astounding. It is an amazing tribute to the talent and skills of Scottish craftsmanship, materials and determination. Congratulations and well done to all who serve the people of Scotland in this wondeful architecture!

214

Kenneth,

22/02/2007 17:04:22

Why is a Spanish architect rooted in Mediterranean caprice-I like their stuff being an architect, however-chosen to design the representative buildings in a country with no geographical, cultural, climatic, or other similarities. It's like building an igloo in Madrid. This is another example of political cultural wannabes who get shnookered by their own lack of cultural understanding and artistic depth by temporal architectural styles. "You must come to Scotland and see our new Parliament bldgs. It's a Tagliabue, you know." Something wrong here, yet it happens all over. People spend all their time and energy to get into power and all the rest of the brain is empty.

215

Canning,

22/02/2007 17:05:19

#215 that may be the case but from what I have understood Scotland as "New state" would have to re-apply to the EU but that may be wrong. The question is then how much influence are we going to have within the European parly, and who is going to decide how many seats we get? The actual process of this will no doubt take a considerable amount of time to establish, especially when you consider that it is the Euro parly that we are talking about.

216

The hawk,

22/02/2007 17:08:01

Why in the public sector does no-one ever take the blame?
A pity that the goverment departments aren't run along private lines, a lot of people would be looking for another job and probably done for fraud.

217

Canning,

22/02/2007 17:09:27

#216

I agree that the building is architectually very impressive but it does not give you the feeling that it is the home of a state and lacks the presence of Westminster, the Whitehouse or the Riechstag. Theres is no feel of perminance about it and seems somewhat flimsey in comparison.

218

Stoo,

Borders 22/02/2007 17:12:49

"the difference is that if you give the Scottish parly 15 to 20 years it allows it some time to mature and some of the better politicians may actually choose to go there rather than down to Westminster."

What better pols? Alexander - Reid! Or back bench fodder, gawd knows Westminster suffers from the same affliction we have, career pols with little or no life experience.

"For example we could get our own voice in the EU then in the UN. "

Eh? How would we get our own voice without independence?

"We also have to gaurantee that we will still be in the EU if we become independant."

I doubt we would have any trouble getting, our fishing waters alone would see to that.

"Also there is the issue of public services which will no doubt incur some cross border juggling with the rest of the UK, things such as passport, pension service buildings and all the rest of it. This all takes time and costs money. "

Indeed it does, but ever year in the union continues to weaken our country, more and more people leaving, economic growth below the UK rather stagnant rate.

"These are just a few issues which would as far as I can see take a considerable amount of time to negotiate smooth over. As I have have asked before, what is the rush?"

None of these things can be looked at and resolved until we become independent.

219

rayjan,

England 22/02/2007 17:47:04

Holyrood was of course expensive but you wanted your own Parliament you got it and their is a price to pay.We English on the other hand want our own Parliament, we already have a building(Westminster) and still the politicians refuse to listen to us.

220

rayjan,

England 22/02/2007 17:47:55

222 sorry their should be there

221

fimo,

In front of my PC 22/02/2007 17:53:09

£400m for the Parliament building, £600m for a tram system, a billion pounds for a bridge - wow, this is serious money. I'm sure there's loads more -feel free to add to the list...

There's only 2.5 million folk working in Scotland, so where does it all this money come from?

222

,

22/02/2007 17:57:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
223

georgia,

usa 22/02/2007 18:00:59

Better check to make sure Halliburton had nothing to do with the construction....that's an ugly bunch of structures, and at great cost to your country....shame, really....

Oh, by the way, Halliburton has been hired to build another warship for the Brits or the Scots, even though in the construction of a previous ship, they overran their cost estimate by 100%. Seems that it doesn't matter....but people should care about things like this, when they can be proven!!

224

Andrew Allan,

22/02/2007 18:05:16

Choose a nameSteven, #186. Which parallel universe did you came from. When Thatcher made British steel ready to sell off, she closed down the profitable Scottish part of the industry, so moving the contracts to the English steel works which weren’t. The effect in the end was the loss of thousands of Scottish jobs, not just in the steel works, but also those who relied on them. It is obvious you weren’t involved in either the steel or mining industries, though your insistence you were a worker would suggest you were aware that under Thatcher’s regime employment was hard to come by, and so admitting the culpability of Thatcher’s approach to government, so the answer to your question ‘Did Thatcher ruin Scotland?’ would have to be, to the majority of people yes, and this shows by the number of Tory MPs from Scotland that voted her out, and then the number of people that went on to vote against the Tory party and still do.

225

John Kelly,

Long Beach, NY 22/02/2007 18:09:10

Makes the fellows in Boston's "Big Dig" look good.

226

S.Macleod,

22/02/2007 18:43:16

#228

$14.6 billion, there were nearly 700 leaks in a single 1000-foot section of tunnel beneath South Station, faked records that hid the poor quality of concrete, etc etc etc.

"Makes the fellows in Boston's "Big Dig" look good."

er, I don't know about that!

227

Skatedad,

Edinburgh 22/02/2007 18:56:53

Mel Gibson in "Braveheart" is to blame!!
You all wanted "FREEDOM!!" and this heap of c**p is what you got!

228

I'm no really here,

22/02/2007 19:00:52

400 Million. If they go some Polish Immigrants to do it, it would have been done right first time and we'd have got change out of 10 million.

I'm off down the local cafe to see if anyone there knows how to build a bridge or dig a tunnel.

Do they have trams in Poland??

229

Derick fae Yell,

22/02/2007 19:25:20

#34 "To build such a ridiculously expensive building, irrespective of whether it is architecturally pleasing or not smacks of a Banana Republic"

Correct. Another example of the 'Union Dividend' - as the project was conceived and executed by Westminster's wee Scottish Office (tartan branch)

#52 re the so-called "we're hopeless, couldnt even build a Parliament" attitude amongst Scots."

I am not so sure that all the Unionist Miserygutses so prominent on these boards are Scottish, eh?

# 64 "A third venue was only because of pride and to do the exact opposite of what the SNP wanted.

Spot on. We had a perfectly good, beautiful and historic debating chamber at (the real) Parliament Hall. But that would never do - too many resonances. The gimcrack arrangement stay at the Assembly Hall was also deliberately shoddy.

230

Derick fae Yell,

22/02/2007 19:32:25

not to defend ye olde sCOTTISH Office, but the original £40m was the sum budgeted for renovating the Royal High School debating chamber. The original budget for Holyrood was £100m (still stupidly low).

A pity the architect had a brain tumour - Setting aside his personal tragedy, re the Parliament building that circumstance is just one of these quirks of history. An architect friend of mine described it as 'a product of a disordered mind'. Still we're stuck with it unless the RAF bomb it.

231

kameroon,

lanarkshire 22/02/2007 19:35:09

I think the mafia was behind all this.

232

Maxie,

Scatland 22/02/2007 19:54:54

~226 Georgia

Naaa. That's the daft Brits.

Their commissioning skills are non existent and the Defence Secretary seems to be trying to outdo the even more stark incompetence of the Home Secretary who casting a jealous eye over the even more incompetent Foreign Secretary.

Twas ever thus!

233

Maxie,

22/02/2007 19:58:25

Have all the unionist disappeared or is it my imagination?

There must be a Rangers game on the telly or something!

234

EUallTHEway,

22/02/2007 20:03:32

I would much rather have seen the £400m spent on either health, education, transport or regeneration for the UK, rather than on Holyrood and all the trappings that that involves.

'Closure' is the way forward.

235

Florence,

Edinburgh 22/02/2007 20:11:40

The depressing thing is, the inside of the building is even uglier and more depressing than the outside.
Doesn't seem possible, but it's true.

236

Van MacHelsing,

The Manse, Glen Helsing 22/02/2007 20:15:29

The arsenal:

The Bow: a crossbow, strung with the hairs of the Maryhill Dolls. It fires bolts of purest Ravenscraig Steel (some was miraculously preserved by the Knights Templar). A nick will grievously wound the Unionist Troll. A direct hit will cause the creature to eliminate in a rauchen of green haar.

The Sword:
well, did you think the one in the Wallace Monument was REAL?

The Dirk: wrought with runes to bring the doom of the Unionist Troll. Light but strong. Equally good at close quarters or for slicing onions

The Staff: The Truth is my staff.

Ian Dubh - another dram!

237

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 22/02/2007 20:23:48

208 ...

What would you call a bunch of 'z' list fourth rate MSP's and the even dimmer kids in the scot exec churning out laws which serve nothing save making them appear to have a function.

You want Independence ... what for? So these twits can do what for you? ... We should be looking at ways to disolve the Scottish parliment and castrate their legislative powers before they do any more damage.

Scotlands love affair with the 'centre left' clowns will be its undoing ...

If you want to see a fool just find a mirror ...

238

Van MacHelsing,

The Manse, Glen Helsing 22/02/2007 20:28:02

Voldemort
- a doughty foe, he, but ...but.. I feel... he is not the Troll. We shall leave him for later

Ian Dubh - another dram!

239

Dana,

California 22/02/2007 20:33:59

After following the news about this building and its construction troubles, I finally had a chance to tour it last September and was entirely amazed and impressed.

I understand the shock of the cost overruns and lack of proper oversight, which happens much of the time with ambitious, adventurous contemporary architecture. (Bravo to the people who stuck with it and saw it through completion.)

To an overseas visitor, the building is spectacular and beautiful inside and out and allows an appreciation of the city and the mountain beyond in a new way. I am telling all my friends and colleagues to go see it for themselves. (Hey, the Getty Center in Los Angeles cost $1 billion, and what you got is much more original and interesting.)

Charles Rennie Mackintosh wasn't appreciated in his own time either.

240

Mac Mhic Raonuill,

Edinburgh 22/02/2007 20:40:11

"Calton Hill. A shibboleth for the Nationalists" was the cry of the late Donald
Dewar . "Hollyrood. A shambles for Labour" would have been more appropriate. Perhaps Donald knows that now, if he was lucky enough to enter "Tir nan og" ?

My good lady made a very ladylike comment. "I think it would be an idea to sell off the Holyrood building as an excellent entertainment centre, and use the capital gained to build a building more in keeping with a parliament building for Scotland's parliament. Calton Hill would be an excellent site for such a building, if it was built with the same love and care of some of the more substantial earlier masterpieces of our ancestors that still proliferate our capital."

Entertainment indeed, and many of the present occupants of the Holyrood theatre might aspire to becoming super stars without the need for professional training.

241

Sambo,

The deep south 22/02/2007 20:41:44

The people responsibile for this monstrosity should be hauled in front of the court and sentenced. As for Donald Dewar, his statue should be taken down and thrown in the Clyde.

242

Maxie,

22/02/2007 20:50:27

#244 Sambo

Hope things are well. I've had to load and reload for email purposes. Bear with me.

In common with a lot of people I dont like the external appearance of the building either but the interior is magnificent. Even most of its worst critics have said as much.

Anyway, I've said all I'm going to say on this subject.

Be good folks!

243

lisa,

perth 22/02/2007 20:50:54

We have a crime and list of suspects, but no charges.

Surely, at the very least, we deserve a scapegoat?

244

Different Drummer,

Wish I was there.... 22/02/2007 20:53:00

If I hadn't read the location, I would have thought it was about the infamous prices and cost overruns paid for by the US Military to its civilian contractors. (However, there was nothing "civil" about that!)

#242 -- Well, that's ONE way to make back some of the money....tourism. Small pittance though that would be.

#243 -- I hope they take your lady's advice.

#244 -- Please don't pollute the Clyde!! I haven't seen it yet!

245

I'm no really here,

22/02/2007 21:10:10

#242 Dana. The Getty Centre is a good deal bigger and houses stuff which is much more valuable and useful than Politicians. Also, I think it makes a profit (??)

246

martin , surrey,

Godalming, Surrey. 22/02/2007 21:42:12

On a normal and properley run civil engineering project, such a gross overspend would never have been allowed to happen, as persons are held accountable and responsible and sacked when they fail, unlike politicians and civil servants who just get further rewarded for their own gross incompitence.
Nice to hear that a 30 year old civil servant can be put in charge of a major civil engineering project , with no experience at all of engineering and construction projects.
Perhaps I should turn up at a hospital and say that Im a brain surgeon ! heres my battery drill and where do I start.
So for a project that originally was going to cost (suppoesedly) £40 million and ended up costing £414 million, they manage to claim that they have " saved " £16 million !!
Oh and the presiding officer accepts respomsibility, ! does that mean he is going to pay for the place himself ?

247

Expat Patriot,

Sydney 22/02/2007 22:01:06

Holyrood - what a poor joke you are.

This is what you get when you have a country run by lefties who've nore more clue as to how to run a country (sustainably) than tie their own shoelaces. Basics are ignored. So too is logic. And their education/qualifications? Ludicrously lacking.

Holyrood (or more specifically the loonies running it) is the ONLY reason why I'm not yet in favour of Scottish independence.

248

AG.,

Scotland 22/02/2007 22:08:34

£414 Million for a building that looks as if it was made up of LEFTOVERS.
It's the worst building that I've ever seen. When I was inside of the building I had this overwhelming feeling of clostrophobia. There was no ambiance. I would hate to be caught in a fire in that building the passages are very narrow. I think we should get our money back. What do you think?

249

Captain,

USA 22/02/2007 22:11:22

RAVJAN - I know the English are a bit put out about the own Parliament issue, however, since English MP's have always been in the majority in Westminster, an "English" Parliament seems to already exist.

250

Doh,

22/02/2007 22:17:52

yis aw dinnae ken tha foo storie.

Efter a long an kinsiderd competion a pair gleswegias (Donald and Kirsty) chosed the oogliest building tae on inflict on mae own hame toon of edimbra.

It gies me ra boak every tim aw sees ait.

Am fair scunnered by the cost tae.

251

Scotsman in Dublin,

22/02/2007 22:27:44

Very convenient to blame the MSP's and Scotland for the Holyrood fiasco but if my memory hasnt completely failed me wasnt the planning of this a Westminster project? Why does Westminster and the Labour goverment take no responsibility for this? Clearly there were a lot of issues here but £40 million was never going to be enough and ended up making the final figure look much worse than it was.

I noticed Cannings posts earlier about waiting 15-20 years for MSP's to get more experience??? Surely between the one's that we have and the ones that are down in Westminster running the UK that would have to move to Holyrood after independance we would have a fairly broad base of experience! Besides, what experience did Labour have when they took over Westminster?

252

Greens,

22/02/2007 22:44:35

Demolish the building with all the 4th rate parasites in it! Who voted for this loony assembly ayway?

253

wattie>x 1,

22/02/2007 22:49:19

History has been proved correct.
New Labour since being elected in 1997 have proven to be nothing more than a shower off useless political amateurs as well as ambitious glorified power and glory seekers.
Have they ever achieved anything worth while, other than lining their own pockets from the Taxpayers gravy train?
They conned the general public in 1997 with their lies and deceit and still do so today in February 2007!
When will we ever learn?
WE ARE THE MUGS!

254

Miss Jean Brodie,

22/02/2007 22:49:20

Talk to only honest politicians - and you’ll suddenly have no-one to talk to - ha ha ha - Sich a parcel o Rogues in a nation

255

Sam,

Edinburgh 22/02/2007 23:02:50

Now, remind me once again why the government is paying itself VAT in the amount of £48.5m? If the government doesnae pay will will it be done for tax evasion?

256

Stoo,

Borders 22/02/2007 23:12:54

"There's only 2.5 million folk working in Scotland, so where does it all this money come from?"

Scotland isn't independent, why are you only including the taxpayers from Scotland?

257

Stoo,

Borders 22/02/2007 23:15:31

Florence, how is your guide dog keeping?

258

Stoo,

Borders 22/02/2007 23:17:06

"Holyrood (or more specifically the loonies running it) is the ONLY reason why I'm not yet in favour of Scottish independence."

That and the fact you're quite clearly as bright as a dark room.

259

Van MacHelsing,

22/02/2007 23:34:49

250 aaaaahhh, it says: 'Expat Patriot'

ah - Patriot of which country? I smell himm Ian Beag. He iss close. quiet now, he may spook. [Narrator: or he may be a spook]. What think you - the bow? hand it to me now, so quietly.

255 - so quick it changes, the shapeshifter - 'Greens' this time - but see how it says "assembly". Which country, Ian Dubh, which country?

Settles down to firing position. careful now.
aims.
THECHUNNGG!
-ssssssssssssssssssssssssss

260

George in Kansas (USA),

small town (12K) in a red state 22/02/2007 23:43:57

As Jackie Stewart said in a slightly different context, "it makes me Scottish blood run cold."

From US experience you would be well advised to put an absolute limit on this project and cut it off when it hits this figure. It appears this is another “open ended” project in which governments worldwide specialize.

261

S.Macleod,

23/02/2007 00:09:41

#263

He also said "We shared a flat in London and called it the Scottish Embassy".

262

Scott 1,

23/02/2007 00:13:49

If the project had been given a real budget in the first place; employed a decent design team(not some holiday maker) and the suits kept away then the building would probably ended up as something we could be proud of instead of what we have now

263

Hadrian,

23/02/2007 00:18:45

Never seen the building but will make a point to take the tour.
The building does not matter, what happens inside does.
What the country requires is people who are eminently capable
of managing Scotland as a Premier League country, not as an also ran at the bottom of the second division .
It is time an independant Scotland was being run by managers of top class ability, men and women with inspiration for the country,
they may be the people you least expect, but the shed they are working in is totaly irrelevant, it is the work they accomplish that matters to Scotland. We do not need the fools and incompetents.

264

Jock MacSprog,

23/02/2007 01:28:14

all you sheep complaining are just going to keep electing the same old socialist tax and spend types (Lib-Lab, SNP Green) in Scotland the next election and the next and the next, so how can we take you seriously ?

265

RAV,

Lethbridge Alberta Canada 23/02/2007 02:45:17

Price be damned! Was it MEANT to look like that? And you bought it anyway? At any price!!? With no price set?! Apparently the financial canniness of the Scot is a much over-rated stereotype of no proven validity! EEEEGAAAD! It's BLOOOODY HIDJIOUS!! (I meant the building but maybe I could apply that decsription to the entire fiasco?

266

Jiimpoo,

Tillietudlem 23/02/2007 02:50:59

The Scottish Parliament has less powers than any
Canadian provincial legislature, including Nova Scotia
and Prince Edward Island

267

Elizabeth Cameron,

New Zealand 23/02/2007 07:55:15

The Scottish Parliament Building is one of the most impressive and beautiful I have ever seen, and will be still standing in Edinburgh in a couple of centuries' time, still beautiful. People in Scotland see only the questionable need for it, and the extraordinary price, but not many appear to appreciate the wonderful piece of architecture you have got.

268

rayjan,

england 23/02/2007 09:32:22

#252
Agreed but the real argument is that the present government cabinet is made up of Scottish MP's with toady English MP with no B...s trying to protect their jobs and all the freebies that go with it .
What we want is English MP's in an English Parliament so that they are answerable to the direct electorate

269

Mike S,

23/02/2007 11:50:13

You forgot to add the cost of the upkeep of the old Royal High School for all those years as it was intended to be the Scottish Parliament.

270

livilion,

livingston 23/02/2007 12:44:32

Those Weepy Wullies who girn about the number of hospitals and schools that could've been built with the money spent on the Holyrood complex all seem to forget that for all of the period of it's construction the Scottish Parliament underspent its annual budget by the same amount, and more, that the whole project eventually cost.

This at a time when they were going to let Hampden Park die for the want of, what was it, £3millions?

Any money Holyrood could have looked like anything else and they'd still be moaning, 'Naw, ah don't like it!'


In fact we're quids in by about £2 Billions, unless we just gave all that money back to Whitehall...

btw Why didn't we use that dosh to build the afforementioned schools and hospitals (replacement Forth Road Bridge?) when we had the cash spare?

271

livilion,

livingston 23/02/2007 12:50:42

btw If Holyrood had only cost £10million the same folks complaining about the cost, would still be complaining about the cost.

Remember Hampden Park?

272

Albacridhe,

England 23/02/2007 13:30:05

Perhaps I'm being a bit picky here, but I've added up the figures from the breakdown and made it well over £500m.

Perhaps the editors bought their calculators from the same shop as the numpties who carried out the orginal estimate.

We can all blame Casio! Damn them with their tiny screens - so easy to mistake a comma for a decimal point!!

273

Scotian,

Ile Royale 23/02/2007 13:37:44

I've only seen it in photographs-- Unique I'll say!

The bean counter had the foresight to be under budget (in the house)every year to offset the overall fearsome cost. After you take away the VAT which is money recovered, really. It aint so bad to thole.

Wether its a carbuncle I'll leave to others like Frazer with a Zed to argue: presumably in English?

Slainte

274

morris,

edinburgh 23/02/2007 13:48:12

Picky? No

Observant maybe!
Interesting

275

Nessie 309,

Chicago, USA (Ayrshire lad & Edinburgh resident) 23/02/2007 15:23:35

The looks of the building are subjective, some love Picasso's work, some detest it. I personally thing both Picassos works and the new building are horrid...however...
The true issues are :
a. Whose pockets were lined,
b. Who was fiscally (ir)responsible for the numbers
c. How do we recover the cost (investment) and move on.

May I suggest that all the politicians donate 10% of their salaries and expenses for a start over the next 5 years. Make them pay for their decisions

Have the funds from the tours contribute. Put a 1-2% hotel tax on the tourists and in future look to private sponsorship of such major projects.

In Chicago there has been millions spent on the building of Millenium Park http://www.millenniumpark.org/artandarchitecture/ but the most of that came from private investment -

Have the Parliament building rented out for private parties and name some rooms after corporations (like RBOS Hall) for a few million.

Come on folks stop moaning and do something about it. Take your revenge at the next election.
Good luck...

276

GalacticCannibal,

23/02/2007 15:39:58

#278 Nessie:

I have news for you . Moaning and more moaning is the birth right of the Scottish .
Do something !!! not a chance they just keep moaning.

Hey check out this guy. Who the hell is he ?

Looks like he is paid more than the minimum wage. What has he done to deserve this pay.?

Sir Muir Russell was permanent secretary at the Scottish Office and then the Scottish Executive when all the crucial decisions and major mistakes were made. He is now the principal at Glasgow University, earning a reputed

£178,000 a year. He is entitled to a pension of £75,000 to £80,000 a year, along with a lump-sum payment of between £215,000 and £220,000 from the Scottish Executive.

HAND Have a NIce day

GC

277

Exiledlassie,

Canada/Scotland 23/02/2007 15:57:54

Did I miss something or are the only people who like this 1960sesqu, council block; which looks, from the outside, like it has a dampness problem; people who don't have to actually look at it?

Could it be that those who laud it are as out of touch with the area, the people and reality as those who designed,approved and spent tax payers money on it?

I wonder what it would cost to knock it down and start again?

Just asking........

278

Pelon,

New Mexico, USA 23/02/2007 16:01:35

re. "No-one responsible for the rise from the first estimate of between £10 million and £40 million to the eventual total (nearly £500 million) lost their job."... Lost their job??? Is that all?? This is the basis for CRIMINAL charges! For cryin' out loud, it's THEFT! GRAND LARCENY!! Round 'em up! Try 'em in court!
Nonetheless I'm sure it's beautiful, and fitting, and will ultimately become historic in a couple thousand years, but, we only realize we're paying too much for something when we ask to see financial details for the projections. When the contract group bulls****s us on how much it's going to cost, how else would we know if we don't exercise oversight? If we aren't confident to undertake the chore, to step up and say WE can do this best, to empanel resources charged with questioning proposed intents and actions, to demand accountability, to see objective proof, and the resultant work product falls below expectations, we've only ourselves to blame, and shouldn't be surprised. It doesn't mean, however, that particular members of the producing group should not shoulder more of the blame (where determined) then others. Otherwise, oh dear, and I have to say it -- the reprobates could expect, confidently, to go "scot-free"!
Don't let them off the hook. The organizations currently employing the 'suspects' should exercise scrutiny, and report their 'position'. If satisfaction is lacking- raise a d****d ruckus!

279

S.Macleod,

Inverness 23/02/2007 17:06:42

This is what you call an expensive building : http://www.glasssteelandstone.com/BuildingDetail/434.php

280

Douglas,

Bathgate 23/02/2007 17:21:50

It looks like something Cumbernauld threw away when redesigning their town centre. All over Scotland 1960's shopping centres have been flattened but in Edinburgh it's still a style statement.
The architect should have been laughed out of town.

281

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta , California 23/02/2007 17:47:27

#281 Pelon
What does your d*****d mean ?

I guess that your bulls****s means bullshits . If so why don't you write it. Don't you have a backbone.?

HAND... have a nice day

GC

282

S.Macleod,

Inverness 23/02/2007 19:05:44

#284,

Is there such a word as bullshits when being used as a present or past participle verb?

Just wondering...

283

Van MacHelsing,

23/02/2007 21:36:59

280 Exiled Lassie

sssssssssssssssssTHUNKDRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

damh (Van MacHelsing curses_under_ his/her breath)

Ach, hit a fencing poast - missed!

ah, does The Troll change gender? Ir luiks laek it. AND Whit wey no?

Still, haein little harns, it still poses as an 'ex-pat' [thinks: whid did Pat ever dae tae wis?]

I feel a lack o whiskey - back tae Glen Helsing fur a Reviver. Will we die o the drink? ACH, we'll die ahnywey!!!

You die if you worry, but if you dinnae worry - you still die!!

More later

284

Winston,

europe 23/02/2007 21:50:44

From 40M to 400M. Amazing.
There musn't have been serious tendering done. Contracts should be made with fixed and firm prices. How can they possibly overshoot by that much?

285

AG.,

scotland 23/02/2007 21:53:06

I actually believe that they took into consideration the Dummydykes area when they built the parliament. Those flats are atrocious aswell.
I can't see the parliament still standing 200 years down the line.

286

Van MacHelsing,

23/02/2007 22:20:42

280 Exiled Lassie

sssssssssssssssssTHUNKDRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

damh (Van MacHelsing curses_under_ his/her breath)

Ach, hit a fencing poast - missed!

ah, does The Troll change gender? Ir luiks laek it. AND Whit wey no?

Still, haein little harns, it still poses as an 'ex-pat' [thinks: whid did Pat ever dae tae wis?]

I feel a lack o whiskey - back tae Glen Helsing fur a Reviver. Will we die o the drink? ACH, we'll die ahnywey!!!

You die if you worry, but if you dinnae worry - you still die!!

More later

287

Van MacHelsing,

23/02/2007 22:21:24

ah, too much Glen Helsing

288

Lt James Bigglesworth,

23/02/2007 22:26:50

Couldn't we just have bought the millenium dome and moved it to Edinburgh?


 

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