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Holyrood faces its own winter of discontent as 150,000 vote to strike

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Published Date: 01 August 2008
By David Maddox
Scottish Political Correspondent
SCOTLAND faces a potentially crippling industrial dispute as unions representing more than 150,000 council employees yesterday announced their members had voted to strike.
On the day that many Scottish Government civil servants took part in a one-day strike over pay, GMB Scotland and Unite confirmed their members had backed industrial action.

Unison, the biggest of the local government unions, is set to confirm today that its members have also decided to strike.

Senior staff from all three unions will meet today to decide what action should be taken.

The unions have warned that strikes will mean schools closed, rubbish uncollected and many other areas of local government work grinding to a halt.

It is expected that the unions will start with one-day walkouts, but will escalate the action if the deadlock is not broken.

Members of the three unions are furious over the pay offer from the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities (Cosla) of just 2.5 per cent a year for the next three years.

The offer is better than the 2.4 per cent deal in England which has provoked action south of the Border, but they say it does not keep pace with the cost of living. They point out that gas prices are to go up 35 per cent, bread and milk are up 14 per cent, butter 31 per cent and eggs 39 per cent.

"It's no wonder our members have rejected this deal," said Alex McLuckie of GMB Scotland.

A Unison spokesman added: "Yesterday's announcements of further major hikes in heating bills will have confirmed the need for the employers to seriously address the shortcomings in their offer."

David Mundell, the shadow Scottish secretary, blamed Gordon Brown's government for the problems. "His weakness has created a have-a-go atmosphere for the unions," he said. "Both Scotland's governments now need to tackle this strike and protect public services."

Cosla has insisted there is no more money available. Michael Cook, its spokesman, said: "I am naturally saddened that our trade union colleagues are moving towards strike. I believe that our current differences are best resolved through negotiation and we are available for constructive discussion that takes us towards a mutually agreed solution."

The Scottish Government has said it is an issue for Cosla to resolve. A spokesman added: "The Scottish Government has provided record funding for local government despite an extremely tight financial climate."

There was a dispute over how many civil servants took part in the strike called by the Public and Commercial Services Union yesterday.

PCS said 95 per cent of its members took part, but the Scottish Government insisted that 19 per cent of staff and 41 per cent of PCS's members were on strike.

PCS has claimed that the government insists on a cap of 2 per cent on pay rises, but the government says it has offered up to 20 per cent for the lower paid.


Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 31 July 2008 9:40 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Annoyed with the SNP,

01/08/2008 00:05:33
Salmond, Swinney and the SNP are a total mickey mouse government of toy town.

They are too busy putting signs up, taking signs down and painting trains to do any real work or take care of our county's staff, wellfare and livlihoods.
2

ThomasP,

01/08/2008 00:14:50
#1

You need a hobby
3

S'me,

Edinburgh 01/08/2008 00:18:10
The nationalists honeymoon drawing to a close, now real government starts... with tough decisions, not the easy populist token policies.
4

South Gyle Prisoner,

Edinburgh 01/08/2008 00:22:43
Is it any surprise that the Trade Union Labour Party Careerists [i.e. salaried union officials] are now manipulating their membership to pick a fight with an SNP Government whilst ignoring the fact that it is Westminster Labour that got us into the mess in the first place.

Yes they deserve more so wheres the cash coming from Gordon Brown?
5

S'me,

Edinburgh 01/08/2008 00:34:29
Every country on the planet is having the same problems if you haven't noticed.. it is a global economic crisis, not the doing of one government here or there.
6

Resolutions,

01/08/2008 00:40:16
Now just how is a strike going to pay those fuel bills?

Certainly will 'conserve' fuel -

But fuel etc controlled by Westminster lot. And they appear oblivious.
7

Peeablo,

Annoyed with 60 years of Labour 01/08/2008 00:41:41
#1 Mr Angry, the SNP won, please, get over it.

On the other hand you could join in the debate or even comment on the article (shock/horror)rather than the pap your writing.
8

,

01/08/2008 00:56:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
9

Iainbroch,

Moray 01/08/2008 01:07:51
re 7

Reasoned Debate, Rational discussion of issues, honesty etc is not something you are going to get from a politically motivated hack or the columns of this rag!

Perhaps if those who make political levies from out of thier Union dues decided to keep them then some people might have more money in thier pockets to spend.

Indeed if they decided not to pay exorbitant union fees then those individuals would have even more spending money?

I fear that those unions especially the more pro liebour ones will get little public sypathy for thier causes, least of all from those of us who have been squeezed by the proverbials by a London gvt and its iniquitous scrapping of the 10p tax band.

Unlike the pro London Unions I do not have the luxury of going on strike. I think that some are in need of a reality check.

But then what are we to expect as they are only following the Creed that has been evangelised from Westminster for the last 30 years or so that Greed is the greatest good?

To many of us in difficult situations and lacking job and financial security we will have no sympathy - especially with those who are better paid and actually put in less hours than many of us in other working spheres in life? Not through choice but through necessity!
10

somerferg,

perth 01/08/2008 01:21:11

#11 -"UM" wow your smartest comment yet!
11

,

01/08/2008 01:23:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
12

Arthur G,

Glasgow 01/08/2008 02:21:29
So, "Annoyed with the SNP" is today's guest Hootsmon agent provocateur? One or other of the more experienced 'trolls' should give him or her a few tips on not showing one's hand too soon.
13

kirk 1,

01/08/2008 02:34:07
Holyrood will face no such thing.
Everybody knows who will get the blame, i think the author of this article is still smarting from his put down by Salmond.
14

Steve,

Bo'ness 01/08/2008 02:36:26
Yeah bring down the SNP govt. at all costs, when it's Labour's fault.

Unions eh? Some things never change.
15

Jeeemy,

St Andrews 01/08/2008 03:04:50
Come on folks think positive! All that will happen is that you and me will find out just how many of then we can do without.
A bit like some of to-days contributors!
16

indune1,

Canada 01/08/2008 03:26:13

FFS! When will we read some informed, educated and engaging comentary from this rag?

A winter of one's discontent implies that you are at the depths of your discomfort but soon to turn into the spring and summer of your comfort.

Read Shakespeare. An English bard but not a bad one at that.

17

tartangladbach,

edinburgh 01/08/2008 04:36:22
how can a country work effectivly, when 51% work for the public sector and 49% for the private? were does the money come from for a wage rise? unite union has decided to adopt an agressive approach of shock and awe! good old fashioned union bullying! labour are weak under brown and the unions think their an easy target to get some laws changed before their kicked out! all their doing is hasting the return of a conservative goverment south of the border and an independent scotland! then again unions forget the majority don't like them any more than they like the fat cats in the city! going back to the seventies is not a solution, life on mars! i think some of the unions have HQ'S there!
18

donald anderson it's me,

01/08/2008 05:09:15
This must be the first strike in history backed by Labour.
19

Pilrig.,

Livingston 01/08/2008 05:41:36
13 - that's the sound of him trying to think
20

Nebulous,

Aberdeen 01/08/2008 06:13:41
I understand some councils have factored savings from strike action into their budget plans.
21

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 01/08/2008 07:23:14
Renationise SCOTLAND put it in the hands of the people, and then let's rock and roll!!!!!!!!!
22

E300,

01/08/2008 07:36:06
One day strike saves £10 on Council Tax. Could they extend it to 10 days and round up the saving to £100?
23

bluehead,

edinburgh 01/08/2008 07:59:20
I am afraid the small inflationary increases to the pay packets of the british workers will soon be a thing of the past,with the enormous amounts to be added to people's expenditures,like recent gas ,electricity ,foodstuffs,plus all most verything else,
any day, very soon,people will not have a reasonable life to live because of what is happening,there will be little help from the present, disgraceful goverment,who on top of everything else have destroyed this once great nation by selling us of to foreign countries, the doom and gloom factor is no longer a joke,it has arrived and it here to stay.!!!!
24

Brian M,

Edinburgh 01/08/2008 07:59:48
"Members of the three unions are furious over the pay offer from the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities (Cosla)"

The majority of these local authorities are Labour controlled. They must be in agreement with this offer as they have not come out in opposition.
25

scottish person,

paisley 01/08/2008 08:10:41
Google Illuminati.
Bliar/Broon/Clinton/Bush.
They are taking over.
26

Linda,

Edinburgh 01/08/2008 08:33:13
Unionists really are financial illiterates and should do the sums.

Scottish Government received 2.5% increase from Westminster despite Scotland contributing £6 billion surplus to London this financial year.

So how can they pay above the 2% pay awards set by London government which can and does borrow its way out of trouble.
27

thinking,

Scotland 01/08/2008 08:39:23
#22 asks 'were does the money come from for a wage rise?'
As there is no such thing as Government money, only taxpayers' they will be paying themselves in increased taxes!!!!!
28

Scottish 'N British,

01/08/2008 08:50:18
Swinney may have outflanked councils with his "historic concordat", but the unions aren't as daft.

Moreover, the p1-3 maximum 18 issue and pay deals won't go away.

Councils have had to make £m's in budget savings to meet their part in this deal. This pay settlement is one deal too far.

Time for Swinney and Salmond to step up to the plate, methinks.
29

sheena,

at home 01/08/2008 08:55:09
21 - Reminds me of Glasgow Scout Shop's brilliant slogan for their end of season sale - 'Now is the winter of our discount tents'.
30

Linda,

Edinburgh 01/08/2008 08:59:23
One bonus of strike is that civil servants will not have to waste more money on Lord Foulkes vexatious and pointless questions.
31

Al D,

01/08/2008 09:00:35
When the whole country faces financial hardship the Red brigade come out of the woodwork to stir up trouble, and this can only make matters worse. We will all have to pay for any concessions, the superior pensions/retirement age enjoyed by public sector workers will also cripple us
32

Scottish 'N British,

01/08/2008 09:07:18
36

Of course, you'd be happy to settle for 2% when inflation is at 4%+.

At time's like this Swinney reminds me of Rigsby. It's Time for the amiable John to get out his purse.
33

mr angry,

ayrshire 01/08/2008 09:19:05
#37 you moron , I would happily accept 2%. I have to work for a living in the real world where I am getting 0%
increase. These clowns need to realise how lucky they are with a job for life and pension at the end. Fit them better if they started to realise that the country is bust and only way out is to cut public spending and therefore get some of these parasites off the publics backs.
34

Daveunderwater,

01/08/2008 09:22:03
# 37

The strings on the purse you mention are tied at Westminster, not Holyrood dear chap.
35

Red Ken,

South East Asia 01/08/2008 09:25:12
#10

According to my source who works in the Scottish Government i.e. my brother if you are on top of your wage scale you get 2% plus a non-consolidated payment. The non-consolidated payment not pensionabale but taxable and does not increase your annual salary. While inflation in going up this is a wage cut of the staff on the top of the scale. Plus there are a few other bits and bobs.

The SNP led government have divided the staff and have threatened to impose the pay offer on all staff.
36

Daveunderwater,

01/08/2008 09:27:06
Anyway once the Tories get back in they will be back with the strong arm tactics, remember Maggie the Miner Basher?

And Scotland as usual will be the guinea pig, I can see the headline now

"Scottish Unions Battle in Street"
37

Beachcomber,

Edinburgh 01/08/2008 09:28:17
As an SNP Supporter, I'm very angry at the latest
info regarding the 2011 Census being carried out
by a questionable organisation.

http://www.petitiononline.com/GSTWCACI/petition.html
38

mr angry,

ayrshire 01/08/2008 09:35:10
#40 the problem is that to keep the public sector employed , it means the very people who pay their wages losing employment. What needs to happen is for taxes to be cut , government spending cut , and let the private sector create real jobs.
Unfortunately in life you cannot just manufacture jobs and have everybody work for the government. The money has to come by bleeding the private sector to death.
No country can survive where the majority are in government jobs, eastern europe proved that big time.
With your reasoning everybody will be poor. Nice thought but not financially possible.
39

lyn,,

perth 01/08/2008 09:47:32
If the government only offer's on average 1 to 2% instead of the 4% which should be offered the government are saving overall as you multiply this over ten years the loosers are us while they save and do nothing to help the average person live comfotably.
With my 1% increase this year this barely covered my union fee's and if the unions don't get there act into gear and sort this long standing arguement out then I will be putting that extra £120 towards my now increased gas and electric bills instead.
40

sed109,

edinburgh 01/08/2008 09:47:36
#38 jobs for life - what planet are you on. The government is about to shut the passport processing centre in Glasgow - with job losses. public sector jobs are no nonger fo life, and the pensions aren't free. They ae paid for though both company(Government) and staff contributions just like any one else with a company pension.
41

Al D,

South Queensferry 01/08/2008 09:48:43
#38 Spot on, whilst most people will realise the invaluable contribution some areas of the public sector make and are duly rewarded with early retirement etc, those same poeple also recongise the over populated/under worked departments that would not be viable or tolerated in the real world and place a burden on the more deserving, the skivers probably consider themselves to be socialists, hypocrits to the end!
42

MoragfraeEdinburgh,

Edinburgh 01/08/2008 09:50:26
"SCOTLAND faces a potentially crippling industrial dispute " - steady on, apart from rubbish collection the striking by public sectors workers would not be noticed by the general public. "Crippling" it would not be. Easier to get to work and park for the rest of us maybe.
43

Alan B,

01/08/2008 09:54:52
#sed109

Most pulbic sector jobs are for life. Occassionaly a government might impose compulsory redundancies but not normally. As far as i know this government said no compulsory redundancies when trying to make efficiency savings.

From what i have seen of the public sector it is very difficult to get rid of someone. Partly due to the pension arrangements people tend to hang on when bored rather than moving to another job (something that tends to happen in the private sector).

The point about pensions and the public sector as they are much better than the private sector ie the people who pay for the public sector. This is due to 1)the continuing final salary schemes that have been done away with generally in the private sector. 2)the early retirement deals you can get with public sector.

Have known people to take early retirement from public sector get decent pension and then take another job with the public sector.

44

inkster,

01/08/2008 09:55:30
#40 Dave

Civil servants are employed persons but they produce little. In the private sector, they would be termed 'overheads' by people in manufacturing, research and sales. Many a good business grinds to a halt when the 'overheads' cost more than the productive staff can take.

Taxpayers can only pay so much tax. The limit has been reached.
Civil servants will have to be sacked. Perhaps a few of them they can become productive citizens instead of taking early retirement and sucking the taxpayer dry.

You need civil servants, but each town needs only what would be termed now as an expert skeleton staff controlled by a town council and a Provost.

51% is a terrible indictment of previous administrations.

45

mr angry,

ayrshire 01/08/2008 09:57:35
#48 Thats just because the London government want to protect the jobs in middle England, its a job transfer.
It will not save the public a penny, its just Labour being petty because they do not like the SNP.
I still believe that the most secure job and pensions are in the public sector and people in the private sector , many with no pension or early retirement, job security and who are getting ZERO pay increases are paying for the public sector jobs.
Reality is that th estrikes will only confirm what we currently think , ie most of them will not be missed. Whilst there are key jobs that are essential in the public sector there are also plenty of non jobs and overstaffed areas that would not be missed.
THey should be delighted they are getting a pay rise and have guaranteed jobs in the current situation.
46

Miss H,

01/08/2008 10:02:26
19 This is not going to bring down the SNP Government. The employers are the local authorities not the Government - the civil servants are the government employees.

Neither the Government nor COSLA are going to meet union demands because they don't have the money to do that. In their hearts I think most employees know this.

So we will have a couple of one day strikes and then they will settle.

47

Al D,

South Queensferry 01/08/2008 10:02:52
Blair backed down on the public sector pension schemes and left Brown with the mess. The general public will not have any sympathy kmowing the ineqaulity of the pension and redundancy system the publuic sector enjoy, it is the unions that are stirring up the trouble to generate their own importance
48

Alan B,

01/08/2008 10:03:19
#inkster

Where do get 51%?

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2006/11/28151648/6

diagram suggest that almost 4 times as many people work in the private sector in scotland as opposed to the public sector.


2006-

585,600 public sector
1,873,400 private
2,459,00 total

49

Alan B,

01/08/2008 10:04:53
more like 3 times.
50

Miss H,

01/08/2008 10:06:19
22 Rubbish. Fewer than a quarter of employees work for the public sector in Scotland.
51

Alan B,

01/08/2008 10:07:25
#Al D

Agree with you regard public sector pension reform but think Brown was a culpable as blair. Brown helped ruin the whole private sector pensions.
52

Man of Reason,

01/08/2008 10:08:29
#38 Maybe you should have worked harder at school so you could get a decent job?

You describe local government workers as "parasites" but I'm sure you'd be first to complain if your roads weren't maintained, the litter wasn't picked up, your kids' schools were closed down, your rubbish wasn't collected, your granny didn't get her home help and your council house was no longer provided.

I'd say they are pretty essential.
53

Man of Reason,

01/08/2008 10:11:39
#50 MoragfraeEdinburgh - see my post #60
54

Scottish 'N British,

01/08/2008 10:13:38
The Scottish Government has said it is an issue for Cosla to resolve. A spokesman added: "The Scottish Government has provided record funding for local government despite an extremely tight financial climate."

And if they (Cosla) can't?


55

Red Ken,

01/08/2008 10:14:00
What some people seem to forget is that if there were no public sector workers the country would grind to a halt. Who would collect the dreaded taxes, collect your rubbish, run the courts, nurse you back to health, defend the country, police the streets, put out fires, replace the social workers and there is more.

Some people think that the private sector is the answer to everything that they dislike about the public sector workers. Well, wake up and smell the coffee the private sector is there to make a profit at your expense. We are already paying a huge amount for the Edinburgh Royal Infirmary and other projects through the PFI (or whatever its called). The private sector rips of the Government at every opportunity which means they want your cash !! If the private sector put in 'normal quotes' not pie in the sky quotes then you will save money.
56

Man of Reason,

01/08/2008 10:17:38
#54 Miss H

It is true that the employers are the local authorities. However, it was the SNP Government that removed local government's fiscal independence with their "historic concordat", so they must take responsibility for the consequences.
57

sed109,

South Queensferry 01/08/2008 10:20:49
#51
new entrants to the civil service are no longer being offered final salary pensions - they get average salary ones. A final salary pension is only as good as the salary you get paid. A band A it the scottish government retiring now with full final salary pension will get about £580 a month, not a lot for 40 years work. and try to remember that public sector workers pay tax too.
58

Alan B,

01/08/2008 10:29:03
#sed109

It is still alot better and more guaranteed than money purchased that you get with the private sector. If you money purchased does not make necessary returns where are you. There is not early retirement if you do have money in the pension fund.

Part of the problem for those not working for public sector is if you are going to retire at 60 and live till say 80 to get say 15,000 a year you would need to say 300,000.

Brown ruined private sector pensions by his tax increases on pension funds.
59

frank mcbride,

lusitania 01/08/2008 10:30:35
I support workers in their inaliable right to protect their wages and conditions.

Having said that, given the very tight spending round -from Westminster, coupled with the inability of the SG to raise extra monies, it is important to realise that any significant rise will lead to job LOSSES.

Union leaders, and more importantly Union members, should be applying pressure on Westminster to change its spending prioities - Iraq, Trident etc, etc, or withdraw their financial support.

However, until the people of Scotland vote for Independence, we will always be subject to Westminster's spending priorities.
60

Man of Reason,

01/08/2008 10:30:40
#66 Alan B

Why don't you apply for a job in the public sector then?
61

The Tin Man,

01/08/2008 10:30:57
If the scot exec wishes to give public sector workers a pay-rise in line with inflation, they should freeze the Council Tax, or cut revenue with a 3% LIT, and ensure that COSLA take full responsibility for negociations with the unions.

Furthermore, they shouldn't dare think of bringing public sector pensions in line with the private sector.
62

inkster,

01/08/2008 10:32:34

alan B #56

OK I accept your figures. 585,000 civil servants for a country of 5 million people is disgraceful. For example NZ manages on less than a tenth of that.
63

mr angry,

ayrshire 01/08/2008 10:33:38
#60 Clown , how would you know what job I have, believe me I have a good job , but work very hard for it.The roads are hardly maintained , education is diabolical , I pay over £2.5K a year council tax for someone to empty my bins once every 2 weeks. Hardly value for money, but explains how we support a bloated public sector. Maybe you should give up your cosy public job and get in to the real world.
64

Alan B,

01/08/2008 10:35:42
#sed109

I do not like some of the anti public sector workers comments posted.

But the whole thing is about balance. We must have enough private sector jobs to pay for public sector.

With regard to pensions, pensions are now far better in public sector and they are effectively paid for by the those in private sector who are getting poorer pension arrangements.

With regard to the pay rise it is difficult. The private sector employees are much more likely to get hit in an economic downturn. They are more likely to get salary freezes. They are most likely to be laid of. And they are then having to pay to give a better deal to those whose salaries they are effectively paying.

The underlying issue is also the fact brown has mismanaged the economy. Poeple are suffering from high oil prices petrol etc. As much of this is tax he should use the windfall tax revenues he is getting to lower petrol prices. Remember transport prices have a knock on effect on food prices etc. But the huge deficits he has lumbered the economy with make this difficult for him to implement.
65

Alan B,

01/08/2008 10:37:16
#68 Man of Reason

Get bored if i stay in a job too long. Could never do one job for 40yrs. A job for a year is long enough :)
66

mr angry,

01/08/2008 10:38:44
#72 Alan B excellent post , agree 100%. Unfortunately lots of people seem to think the money grows on trees.
Unfortunate fact is that there is no extra money and these people are very lucky to be getting pay rises at all. As I stated many of the people who pay their wages are receiving ZERO increase.
They need to realise how lucky they are in current situation.
67

The Tin Man,

01/08/2008 10:38:46
#54 Miss H

'Neither the Government nor COSLA are going to meet union demands because they don't have the money to do that. In their hearts I think most employees know this.

So we will have a couple of one day strikes and then they will settle'

...Personally, I don't think the unions will have a couple of one-day strikes, then settle for whet is likely to be a 2% pay cut every year, for the next three years.
68

Alan B,

01/08/2008 10:39:32
#inkster

Not my figures i just googled to check when figures were posted on this thread. Was not aware of the numbers before that.

It will also under estimate the number as there are a lot of people paid by the public sector that are technically private sector employees.

I agree with you in principle that we should have less public sector employment.
69

sam the god,

01/08/2008 10:41:34
#71 mr angry

£2.5k a year for council tax you must live in a big fancy house so i asume you get a good wage and can therefore afford to get a 0% wage rise unlike some others.
70

Thistledhu,

Fife 01/08/2008 10:48:22
I am a council employee, i am not furiouse at the pay offer its not great but in this climate a guaranteed rise for the next three years is something to be grabbed by both hands.

The unions UNISON in particular have been angleing for a strike for months now. The consultation period was a joke with Shop Sewards Targeting the less 'Bright Council workers' (a shop stewards words not mine). In meetings to get the go ahead for a strike ballot even then even then it was only a majority vote. Many members have yet to recieve their vote card.

I will state this now I and many of my colleagues do not support the Unions position and
WILL NOT GO ON STRIKE.
71

brownlie,

01/08/2008 10:48:37
70 Inkster

Labour's policy has, for years, been to replace functions carried out by civil servants by, after employing expensive consultants, employing private contractors in order to claim that they are cutting the civil service.

This has resulted in numerous private companies, such as IT providers, failing to deliver on the original contracts and going back, cap in hand, to the government to seek, and obtain, extra funding in order to keep services going.

You, therefore, have the ridiculous proposed situation where a group of private companies with no relevant experience taking over functions such as military training. Among them, I understand, is EDF(!?) an energy company who employs Brown's brother.
72

AJ Fife,

01/08/2008 10:52:28
#67,

Hits the nail on the head! The unions ire should aimed at Westminster and not Holyrood. Hoever, it's hardly a surprise that the Labour loving union leaders would try and sabotage the Scottish govt!
73

Man of Reason,

01/08/2008 10:55:58
#71 I'd say your employer doesn't value your hard work if they're offering you a 0% pay rise!

Mind you, us Clowns need the extra cash. Big shoes and red noses don't come cheap you know.
74

Bemused and above it all,

01/08/2008 11:02:48
So the SNP haters are out again, 'honeymoons over' etc, etc?
The reason for these strikes is due to NEW LABOUR & the previous admministration pushing through legislation and reforms which the SNP inherited, the whole mess of CHSCP's for example, which will screw the NHS & whats left of Social Work up, leading to privatisation of those services is NEW LABOURS millenium dome, a complete mess of a white elephant to leave the next government, they just never expected a new government in scotland before the UK, as such they blame the SNP just now, in england in a year or 2 it will be the Tories fault.
Labour are scum and deserve to be hung for what they have done to the people of scotland and the services we need
75

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 01/08/2008 11:03:49
Every working man deserves a fair wage increase both Private and Public, Both Governments scottish and Westminster are benefitting by not providing a decent wage increase, therefore blame should be evenly attributed, The greed of our governments and major employers is disgusting and they should all be punished...
76

The Tin Man,

01/08/2008 11:07:06
#82 Dave

The one sure-fire way to increase private-sector employment, is to reduce public-sector employment.

Reduced corp tax and VAT would certainly help businesses, but the principle thing is people having the get-up-and-go to start their own business in the first place.

A smaller government, and getting away from a 'State will provide' mentality is required.
77

Man of Reason,

01/08/2008 11:15:07
#73 Alan

I guess a year of flipping burgers would be more than enough. Makes sense to move on and expand your CV to include frying chicken, wrapping chips etc.
78

fife_pensioner,

Fife 01/08/2008 11:30:47
Who cares if these overpaid, underworked, well-pensioned numpties go on strike? Who'd miss half of them anyway? Maybe if they had less time off sick and did a decent day's work for their wage I'd have more sympathy.

Spend the money on a new Leisure Centre for Fife and get shot of half of these workshy wastrels.
79

Yeah1,

01/08/2008 11:34:26
#4

"Is it any surprise that the Trade Union Labour Party Careerists [i.e. salaried union officials] are now manipulating their membership to pick a fight with an SNP Government whilst ignoring the fact that it is Westminster Labour that got us into the mess in the first place."

Did you actually bother to read the article before commenting? If you had you would have seen that the Trade Union is also taking action in England:

"The offer is better than the 2.4 per cent deal in England which has provoked action south of the Border"

They are not just 'targeting' the Scottish Government and leaving Westminster alone as you seem to think.
80

Alan B,

01/08/2008 11:40:35
#86 Man of Reason

Abit too technical :)

You obviously missed your vocation as a career advisor.
81

Man of Reason,

01/08/2008 11:41:17
#87 Maybe when you can't get your car out of your drive because of the rubbish, rats and potholes, the local kids are running riot because the schools are closed and your neighbour has built a four-storey extension overlooking you garden in the absence of any planning controls, you will hark back to the good old days.

Presumably your shiny new leisure centre will be run by the private sector? Why not just join Bannatynes in Dunfermline? Too expensive you say?
82

Miss H,

01/08/2008 11:46:59
85 How would you reduce public sector employment? Seriously. Which services which are currently paid for by the taxpayer do you want to abolish?
83

Sedov,

Scotland 01/08/2008 11:49:10
Over the next few years, as working people suffer from the effects of the greed and corruption of big business, who put their own interests before society,there will be more and more unrest. Most of it will be organised through the trade unions but some of will be spontaneous action taken by small groups as a protest to their severe drop in living standards of which we have all got used to in the "boom" years. Workers have enormous power to change things, if only they realised it. New Labour have no answer to the present crisis and appear to be stumbling more and more to the right in a vain attempt to be as Tory as the Tories. the other parties including the SNP have also no policies to challenge the status quo and those people who have decided, mainly out of protest, to support the NATS will be sorely let down as time goes by with no real progress. The millions who have abstained in voting for any party will have some comfort in their belief that "they are all as bad as each other" Interesting times indeed. Watch this space.
84

Miss H,

01/08/2008 11:49:14
75 - the poster at 78 doesn't agree with you.

They will settle because they do not have public support.
85

Thistledhu,

01/08/2008 11:57:33
Yeah1 the vote in England was only 51% in favour same old union tricks
86

Scottish 'N British,

01/08/2008 11:58:17
92

Aberdeen has, I believe, 11,500 employees. For a city of some 210,000?

Do you use your local library? I do. People are literally falling over themselves. There's anecdotal evidence that they need such high levels to manage the sickness levels.

Some (?all) councils have no compulsory redundancy agreements. This problem is, of course historic.

I thought Salmond was committed to smaller government?
So why wasn't this addressed in this famous concordat of his?


87

Brian Hill,

01/08/2008 12:06:07
"Salmond, Swinney and the SNP are a total mickey mouse government of toy town." says Annoyed with...

It must be so galling for unionists who 'know' how pathetic this SNP Government is and yet somehow said Government manages week in and week out to do things which the voters like.

It's enough to make you want to emmigrate....I believe Zimbabwe is welcoming incomers at the moment....


88

Hugh Jars,

Pots n' Pans 01/08/2008 12:06:11
Buckpool Loon @ 91
I'm not 100% sure which poster you are referring to, but (if you take Red Ken @41 comments), what is actually meant is that those at the top end of their pay scale, i.e. those earning what the post is reckoned to be worth (value for range), are the ones who are getting 2% plus the non-consolidated payment.
The other pay steps for each scale, of which there can be a few, are intermediate steps with the idea you work your way to the top (i.e. what its worth eventually) over a number of years.
So not only are those low paid workers in a low paid job, they are paid less than those doing the same job who have been in for longer (kind of like probationary stages).
In reality though, those low paid stages look like getting decent wages rises on paper, when you calculate the actual rise on their next pay step (which they would be getting anyway), it still amounts to approx 2% rise on that step.
The confusing figures are to do with how the SG senior management put the spin on it.

Of course, if this wasn't what you were referring to then feel free to ignore this post.
89

Thistledhu,

Fife 01/08/2008 12:09:50
if and when any strike happens it will not be a complete walk out for there is deep unhappyness with the prospect of a strike.

90

Scottish 'N British,

01/08/2008 12:23:09
Rarely is there a complete walk out as there's always the odd scab or two.

Whether this will satisfy the public when libraries, swimming pools, collection centres, etc are closed is another matter.

Hopefully it'll be settled.

Leadership is required. Notice when the news is good, Salmond is never far away. So where is he now?

Oh wait, I can see him. Can someone please ask the first minister to come out from behind his settee and deal with this matter?




91

inkster,

01/08/2008 12:42:53
Auckland 1.5 m people has 2000 civil servants
Wellington 200K people has 1440 civil servants
Christchurch 500K people has 362 civil servants

Aberdeen (according to #96 above)

210K people and 11500 civil servants.

If this is true across Scotland - we are stuffed, and pathetic.

92

kimba,

01/08/2008 12:47:54
102,Ah Dave,wondered how long it would take you to come to Salmonds rescue,hope you can persuade the GNB and UNITE,to not cause Salmond and co problems this winter,somehow i guess they'd tell you to go "forth and multiply".
93

Yeah1,

01/08/2008 12:47:56
#101

"I don't see you calling for Broon to shorten his Sussex holiday with his family"

Everyone is entitled to a holiday - surely its better for Brown to take a couple of weeks off to recharge his batteries than to keep working constantly and wear himself out?

I'm sure you wouldn't be expected to cancel a holiday at your work to deal with issues that can wait a couple of weeks till you return, so why ask someone else to?
94

GONNYNODEATHAT,

Glasgow 01/08/2008 12:48:07
Now the REAL TRUTH comes out: The SNP are Anti Trade Union.
95

Scottish 'N British,

01/08/2008 12:48:18

Credit Crunch and rising and shocking gas prices are affecting the g-l-o-b-a-l economy.

Knife crime - ask Kenny Mac, it's a d-e-v-o-l-v-e-d matter.

Pay Deals - blamed on cooncils and Westminster - Eck, fae his hiding place, says it's a' Cosla's fault.

BTW, re Eck's tour round the country - Inverness isnae too far away from Aberdeen - is he still going to Aberdeen?


hello? hello?
Anyone there.................?
96

Scottish 'N British,

01/08/2008 12:48:42

Credit Crunch and rising and shocking gas prices are affecting the g-l-o-b-a-l economy.

Knife crime - ask Kenny Mac, it's a d-e-v-o-l-v-e-d matter.

Pay Deals - blamed on cooncils and Westminster - Eck, fae his hiding place, says it's a' Cosla's fault.

BTW, re Eck's tour round the country - Inverness isnae too far away from Aberdeen - is he still going to Aberdeen?


hello? hello?
Anyone there.................?
97

Luke Skywalker,

01/08/2008 12:49:46
Thistledhu - I promise not to strike either. The unions can't see a realistic deal when it is in front of their nose. Of course I would like lots and lots more money but I have done a reality check.
98

JustMyOpinion!,

Stirling 01/08/2008 12:51:07
There have been many good points raised throughout comments made here, but surely to god if we're all so upset about this, why are we not taking a more voiced approach to challenging how we live!
The impact of the fuel strikes at Grangemouth were not heavily criticised enough as their action is heavily to blame for an added excuse to a rise in fuel prices and of course the knock on effects to food prices etc..Their greed played into the hands of the politicians, perfect timing chaps!
When will we stand up to these 'people' who make all the decisions that impact on our very being!
The Tin Man #82 - one valid point is most certainly a shift required in the 'state will provide' mentality. Initially created as a system of support to those in desperate need in times much harsher than ours, is now seen as a career choice in 'which path will I take'.
Existing is most certainly not living, should be the message here!
99

GONNYNODEATHAT,

Glasgow 01/08/2008 12:51:28
Now the REAL TRUTH comes out: The SNP are Anti Trade Union. Tartan Tories
100

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 01/08/2008 12:53:40
Sack all the strikers and get Poles in to do the job instead; they have a work ethic.

Most council employees are a complete waste of space and it will be healthy to clear out the deadwood that we all have to pay for.
101

GONNYNODEATHAT,

Glasgow 01/08/2008 12:55:38
#113 Dave from Barra

He must be Drunk surely
102

Miss H,

01/08/2008 12:56:18
103 You are confusing civil servants i.e people who work for the civil service with public servants i.e. people who work for the public sector in any capacity.

Aberdeen does not actually employ any civil servants.
103

Miss H,

01/08/2008 13:00:01
96 So you would abolish public libraries?


104

GONNYNODEATHAT,

01/08/2008 13:00:04
#114 Maybe we should start with you and your family then when you cant pay your rent of Mortgage and loose your house we can move in the POLES.
105

Busymale,

01/08/2008 13:00:17
It is precisely the size and cost of the public sector that has made it impossible for Brown to reduce tax on petrol to bring down food inflation, prevents a reduction in stamp duty to get the housing market moving again and reduce income tax to allow us all to meet the increased costs of utility bills. Strike? Let them! It's time to take on this pampered workforce who receive more contributions into their pension plans from the private sector employee than they can even afford to put into their own.

Take them on!
106

Scottish 'N British,

01/08/2008 13:03:40
113

Here, specially for you.

"The Scottish Government has said it is an issue for Cosla to resolve. A spokesman added: "The Scottish Government has provided record funding for local government despite an extremely tight financial
climate."

107

inkster,

01/08/2008 13:05:16
#117 This is serious lassie, please don't try to confuse the issue with semantics.
108

Scottish 'N British,

01/08/2008 13:05:41
96

Duh! Read it again.

BTW, read somewhere you are described as a 'senior SNP activist'.

Can quite well believe that.

109

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 01/08/2008 13:08:14
#119 I know someone who used to employ a woman who was so dumb that he had to let her go. Where did she end up with her IQ of less than 80? In an office in a local council. As he said, local government jobs are just there for people who need "care in the community". Good for nothing pen-pushers, the lot of them.
110

JustMyOpinion!,

Stirling 01/08/2008 13:16:19
The viciousness of people in this blog over politics!!
If you're not careful there'll be an anti-discrimination policy against the hatred of government employees!!
111

Resolutions,

01/08/2008 13:21:59
#10 Regardless of whether it is money or principles the bills have still to be paid - they do not go away because you are short of cash, self-inflicted or not.

#124 Are you implying that some folk are unemployable?
Dangerous ground
112

bumpkin,

01/08/2008 13:25:34
the biggest gripe of council workers is the single staus debacle which labour created and conveniently swept under the carpet for the snp to tidy up.
A strike will of course impact on the weakest members of scociety, as everybody else has little need of council services, bar rubbish collection
113

Scottish 'N British,

01/08/2008 13:29:17
103

I'm sure I read it was 11,500. I was gobsmacked.

Here's another one - public sector workers make up 23% of the total Scottish employment. That's nearly 1 in 4!!

On which page of the SNP manifesto is Salmond's pledge to have small er government?

Perhaps he meant Holyrood, and not local. Either way, he has failed to deliver!!

114

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 01/08/2008 13:30:46
#126 Why should taxes be wasted on pretend jobs for useless citizens? Most local government jobs are irrelevant and sacking the lot wouldn't make any difference to other people. Take the clerk who sits in a planning office copying and printing letters. The planning officials do what they want anyway so why bother with endless paperwork telling us that they do what they want anyway?

And who needs traffic wardens? Then take council workmen. You never see one other than in his van with his feet on the dashboard, smoking a fag and reading the Sun. As I said, sack the lot.
115

Scottish 'N British,

01/08/2008 13:32:25
127

Once again, it's a' yon Labour's fault.

Isn't it time for Separatists to change the record and face up to their responsibilities.
116

Scottish 'N British,

01/08/2008 13:33:09
127

Once again, it's a' yon Labour's fault.

Isn't it time for Separatists to change the record and face up to their responsibilities?
117

Scottish 'N British,

01/08/2008 13:33:36
127

Once again, it's a' yon Labour's fault.

Isn't it time for Separatists to change the record and face up to their responsibilities as the party in power?
118

GONNYNODEATHAT,

Glasgow 01/08/2008 13:35:03
#124 Listen dafty. You said it ALL. Private company SACKS Disabled Worker. Its GOOD she got a Job in Local Government. If you think for one minute that the Private sector could run these services more efficient then just look at British Gas or Electricity etc.
119

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 01/08/2008 13:47:24
#133 I didn't say she was disabled I said she was stupid. Two very different things.
120

GONNYNODEATHAT,

Glasgow 01/08/2008 13:56:16
#124&129 Listen again Dafty. Made no mistake about it. ALL conditions of Service that we now have including Holiday and Sickness Benefits etc etc come from Trade Unions fighting employers and Government to bring in employment Law. Your problem and others on this Blogg is that you don’t have a clue what Trade Unionists are and what they fight for. As I said before: Where does the SNP stand regarding Trade Unionists.
121

brownlie,

01/08/2008 14:03:17
124

Individuals with an IQ of less than 80 usually have compensatory talents and it is possible that the local authority job suited her talents whereas the job with your friend did not.

It is obvious that your "story" is, shamefully, meant to infer is that local authority workers are of lesser intelligence than those in the private sector.
122

kimba,

01/08/2008 14:05:26
115. Best we "ignore" you all together if you continue to use foul language,tell you what Dave,go and take one of your "HAPPY" PILLS,and come back when you can be a bit more reasonable.
123

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 01/08/2008 14:05:45
#136 I am listening but not understanding you. Or perhaps you are not understanding me: I don't think we need 75% of the pen pushers in local government so if their trade unions have nothing better to do than try and keep those people's pointless jobs then abolish those trade unions as well. Who'll miss them? Except for the Labour party that has to go to them with its begging bowl now that times are tough within the near dead party.
124

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 01/08/2008 14:07:16
#137 Yes, you got my inference correct. Prove me wrong.
125

brownlie,

01/08/2008 14:14:06
140

No - you made the statement - prove you're right.

I think that Hitler had a solution for people of low intelligence.
126

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 01/08/2008 14:25:11
When the Scottish Government through John Swinney negotiated the Concordat with COSLA about the tail end of last year and gave the local authorities a generous settlement coupled with the removal of ring-fencing, it seemed fine at the time. At the time no one would have foreseen the huge increases in food, fuel and energy prices that have come to pass in the last few months and which don't seem to be levelling off.

There is little that the Labour Government can meaningfully do in what is a global matter as ot does not have the resources to have any impact. There is nothing the Scottish Government can do as it has to live within an allocated budget and has no fiscal controls at its disposal.

We do not know what inflation rates will be in the future. We know that is declared as the rate bears little resemblance to personal experience.

All in society need to face the reality that we have lived beyond our means on false credit and we are now all going to have to endure a period of austerity and difficulty, whether in the public or private sectors.

I think that public sector workers have to face up to the situation that their wage increases now need to reflect those received in the private sector. We cannot all have inflation-matched rises as there is not the money to pay them. The least that a government can do is vary the rises to the benefit of the poorest who are the most affected. The aim of all governments Labour and SNP is to see us through this difficul time with the minimum of damage to the economy and to the lives of ordinary citizens.
127

Scottish 'N British,

01/08/2008 14:28:29
Mmm, would that be your advice were it Scottish Labour, not the SNP in power?

Think not.
128

Scottish 'N British,

01/08/2008 14:29:14
Mmm, would that be your advice were it Scottish Labour, not the SNP in power?

Think not.
129

Alan B,

01/08/2008 14:37:35
#141 brownlie

"I think that Hitler had a solution for people of low intelligence"

So have the labour party. Have you not seen the candidate for the leadership or most of their msps.

While the snp have spurned the lesser intelligent in society to pick msp with intelligence and an understanding of concept of critical thought.

130

brownlie,

01/08/2008 14:43:05
145 Alan B

Alan, if true, that is truly shocking. I'll have to switch allegiances to make my way up the political ladder.
131

puskas,

East kilbride 01/08/2008 14:53:05
Labour leader in Scotland comedy..

Kerr --- Unite ?

Gray --- Unison ?

Jamieson ---- ????
132

Yeah1,

01/08/2008 14:54:07
#129

"And who needs traffic wardens? Then take council workmen. You never see one other than in his van with his feet on the dashboard, smoking a fag and reading the Sun. As I said, sack the lot."

You are clearly embarassing yourself with your large scale over-generalisation. Clearly the majority of public sector jobs are required - what would you if there was no one to collect your rubbish for example? I'm sure you would be the first to complain if the council decided to sack all their binmen and let you deal with your own rubbish yourself.

Also you may not feel we need traffic wardens because perhaps you believe you have the right to park wherever you want, but the majority of the population are less selfish than you and understand the need for parking restrictions and things like disabled parking etc that traffic wardens need to enforce.
133

Hugh Jars,

Pots n' Pans 01/08/2008 14:54:18
Here are some figures to throw into the mix, in case any of you are interested.
They are all from "Public Sector Employment in Scotland: Statistics for 1 st Quarter 2008", and can be found at http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2008/06/10141414/1

MAIN POINTS
Public and Private Sector Employment in Scotland (Headcount)

* In quarter 1 (Q1) 2008, there were 576,500 people employed in the public sector and 1,965,700people employed in the private sector in Scotland.
* Public sector employment in Scotland consists of Local Government including police and fire and related services (54.7%), NHS (27.2%), Civil Service (8.5%), Public Corporations (4.1%), Non Departmental Public Bodies (2.7%) and Armed Forces (2.1%).
* Public sector employment has increased by 49,200 (9.3%) since Q1 1999 but decreased by 3,200 (0.6%) since Q1 2007. The largest increase since 1999 was within NHS (27,900).
* The public sector currently accounts for 22.7% of employment in Scotland which has decreased from 23.1% in Q1 1999 and from 22.9% in Q1 2007.

While I haven't come across the figures for the example given in these posts (Aberdeen), perhaps 11,500 is correct but this may be because it includes ALL public sector workers and not just the council.

So it does look like the numbers are coming down. I understand it to be a gradual process through natural wastage rather than compulsory redundancies; otherwise the unemployment figure would increase. Which would strain things even more.
134

Scottish 'N British,

01/08/2008 15:09:31
145

Halo slipping, perchance?

And you were doing so well hiding your views, too.

135

JustMyOpinion!,

01/08/2008 15:13:06
To: its life but not as we kow it

Bearing in mind that all of our service employees such as nurses doctors, rescue staff, police and the like are not just brain dead morons pushing pens, what experience do you have to quantify your sweeping statements?
The more questionable mentality is that of someone who is sitting lining the pockets of some big businessman/woman (or self) doing there oh so very important 'work' is surely only for those of your 'higher level intelligence'?!?
136

Chris42,

01/08/2008 15:22:19
Alan B - 51 "The point about pensions and the public sector as they are much better than the private sector ie the people who pay for the public sector"

Alan, as a civil servant I agree we have better pension schemes than workers in the private sector. However, you may not be aware that our pensions are counted as part of our remuneration when setting salary levels. Therefore we have lower salaries than equivalent posts in the private sector.
137

nolimits,

Kamloops 01/08/2008 15:27:43
Tighten your belts folks, the ride's gonna get rougher!
138

Alan B,

01/08/2008 15:48:36
#Chris42

Was aware of that. Would generally agree that you can earn more in private sector.

139

Alan B,

01/08/2008 15:50:49
#Scottish 'N British

"And you were doing so well hiding your views, too."

When have i ever hidden my views?
140

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 01/08/2008 16:29:34
#148 Yeah1

I thought bin men already do leave us to clean up our own rubbish. Every week I have to trail after them picking up the huge mess they leave behind. They couldn't give a xxxx and I don't get paid for doing their work.

As for traffic wardens, don't make me laugh. Petty little people with control freak tendencies who should all be sacked.
141

inkster,

01/08/2008 16:51:54
#149 Hugh Jars

Thanks for the info. If true it looks like the situation will be taken care of the only way it can - natural wastage. I expect that Alex Salmond is quite aware of this problem...

Wonder what happened to Bonfire of the Quangos though.



142

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 01/08/2008 17:37:44
And every one of them a Labour voter...
143

Miss H,

01/08/2008 17:51:04
149 There has been a slight reduction but let's face facts. Unless you are going to start to slash public services the proportion of employees who work for the public sector in Scotland is not going to be reduced significantly. Nobody actually wants to do what would have to be done to slash the size of the public sector - for example ountries which have much lower public sectoor employment don't have a national health service. But no political party is going to argue that we ought to privatise the NHS.

Instead of people obsessing about the size of the public sector I suggest it would make more sense to focus on the quality and efficiency. And in the present global context perhaps to focus a bit more on what the public sector can do to compensate for private sector failure, such as in the housing market.
144

Miss H,

01/08/2008 18:02:26
128 We do have smaller government - but like I said to 149 there is a limit to how small it can get. If you think about everything the public sector delivers - now what do you want to get rid of?

You have already said you want to scrap public libraries.

Fine - what next?
145

Miss H,

01/08/2008 18:08:01
122 No semantics involved inkster.

You want to know how many civil servants are employed in Scotland?

OK. The total number of civil servants employed in Scotland is 46,100.



146

Miss H,

01/08/2008 18:12:14
Incidentally we can discuss exactly how many people work for the public sector because some civil servants have collated the information.
147

Thistledhu,

01/08/2008 18:21:21
Scottish 'N British so do you believe that all workers should be forced to strike.

Dont they have a right to work?
148

Nikostratos,

01/08/2008 18:27:29
#162 MISS H

waz the bbc (radio 4) kicking off about the poll tax saying how the snp are contrary to their stated position on an amnesty....allowing local councils to hound people for payment 400 million pounds worth.......
149

Miss H,

01/08/2008 19:12:55
164 Try that in English?
150

Conan the Librarian™,

01/08/2008 19:37:38
166
Can you pay it by Czech?
151

FedUpTaxPayer,

Edinburgh 01/08/2008 19:47:08
Just how out of touch can unions get?

There's a very good chance there will be a recession, people (mainly in the private sector) are already losing their jobs and I'm pretty certain more will be in the near future, the (westmister) government has squandered all our cash, tax receipts are down, borrowing is up and yet they want to increase yet further government spending.

Whilst very possibly these people (some or all) deserve more, there's just no money left in the tin. Gordon Brown has bust us all with his sheer incompetence.
152

PointOf View,

Edinburgh Stirling Bridge 01/08/2008 20:01:11
1 Annoyed with SNP, and the like!

Just to clarify the current situation,. The strikes are as a result of Liebours mishandling of the UK economy. YEARS of spending during the good economic growth years and putting nothing away for this bad economic downturn.

Now we entre a period of national (not just Scottish, watch this space) discontent. This has absolutely nothing to do with the SNP, surely as your so informed, not, Scotland do not have full fiscal autonomy, that’s at Westminster.

Now where’s my crystal ball for a little prediction!!!
Liebour will feel the wrath of the Scottish people as they are sent to the wastelands named “vote of no confidence”. Just ask the Tories (CONservatives), they're still there after many years and many more in front of them. Well at least ConLiebours will be able to keep each other company for many years to come, in the wastlands.

153

Conan the Librarian™,

01/08/2008 20:05:34
168
The people who are going on strike, are not the mythical well paid layabouts.
They are frontline workers who average less than £250 a week.
I assure you, the unions "are" in touch with them.
154

PointOf View,

Edinburgh Stirling Bridge 01/08/2008 20:08:03
Just a thought,, If the historically Liebour local council work force strike, will I still be expected to contribute 30 percent of my council tax towards their gold plated pensions. If so I think the good people of Scotland should protest. Indeed I think we should protest in any case! I mean no one contributes to mine other than myself and my employer, then Maggie Broon raids it again.
155

PointOf View,

Edinburgh Stirling Bridge. 01/08/2008 20:16:29
168 Conan
Fair Point and taken, but not all of them. Fact, I’ve family who make a lot more than that. However, the true cost of living is not reflected honestly by Broon and his mob. So yes lots of people are affected. Hell we've all been taxed and stealth taxed again to the point even i wonder if it’s financially worth going to work anymore, but no option.
156

PointOf View,

Edinburgh Stirling Bridge 01/08/2008 20:35:22
On a lighter note!
I got blasted, by some, on here a few weeks ago (after seeing Broon and Maggie together). I had suggested, re the subject, that my informed choice would be to celebrate the passing of Maggie T and her state funeral, rather than attend and mourn her passing.

I have given the situation much though since then and feel some were right to challenge me.

Now i would like to apologise. I should have extend the invitation to meeting up for a celebratory drink, to celebrate the passing of Maggie T to the following people irrelevant of creed or culture ~

All Miners, Car making work force, Foundry workers, Ship builders and all the supply related industry workers who depended on them but lost their jobs businesses. To all the people of Scotland who were abandoned in every conceivable way possible. Particularly when she lied, buried the evidence about the wealth and quantity of Scotland’s Oil whilst moving the vast revenues South to the coffers. Hmmm, on reflection going to need a VERY big venue! Any ideas people? All welcome!
157

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 01/08/2008 20:44:36
#163 "don't they have a right to work". A local government employee working? Don't make me laugh.
158

Eve,

01/08/2008 21:30:03
Some people just don't know when they have it good.

A pay raise every year! God these poor little rich workers. What would they do if their jobs were min wage £5.52 (thats only if yer 22 or older) and no sign of it going up every year or with inflasion. What does they unions do about that?

Answer Nothing cause most of the people who work on low wages are mebers of unions because they are discuraged or NOT in the possition to do so.

I feel really discused at these civil servents. As someone who has worked for min wage in the past and currently doesn't make that much more. Can't help BUT think, they get paid so much more money and they acauly get a yearly increase no matter by how little it is it's still more than thoes of us on low wages get.

Unions don't give a dam about the worker in low wage. They only care about the middle class workers getting adecesnt wage. And they call them selfs Sosailists. Discusting.


Funny how the wages of the well payed gose up more often and by more than thoes who earn less. And I'll tell you something about people on low wages don't seem to complain as much as the well payed people. No metions of going out on strike from these people so why should people who are NOT the lowst payed workers in Scotland have the right to strike and mone about their lack of pay raise over thoes who don't get yearly pay raise.


Civil servents should wake up and be thankful that their no on min wage because Lord knows I'm glad that earn more than min wage.
159

iainmonty,

GLASGOW 01/08/2008 22:07:05
#176
Just for your information, the claim from the unions was for £1,000 or 5% whichever is the greater.
So if you earn less your increase would be greater. The unions have been trying to get this for years, the employers always turn it down.
The unions have also been campaigning for years for a living wage, not the minimum wage.
The minimum wage only exists because of the trade union movement, and it does go up every year but not by nearly enough.
160

iainmonty,

GLASGOW 01/08/2008 22:10:21
#178
On your point 1, no they aren't - the unions are campaigning for a 1 year deal.
It's the employers and governments who think they are clairvoyant by telling us how much we need every year for the next 3 years.
161

Daveunderwater,

01/08/2008 22:16:49
Historical Overview
Back in 1902, there were only 50,000 non-industrial civil servants. By 1939, this number had risen to 163,000, and there were also 184,000 “industrial” or “blue collar” civil servants working in various locations such as the Royal Naval dockyards.
By 1944, towards the end of the war, the totals had reached 505,000 and 658,000 respectively, a grand total of 1,164,000 civil servants. The number of industrial civil servants then began to fall, aided by
privatisation and contracting out, so that there were only 18,200 in post as at October 2003.
The number of white collar (non-industrial) civil servants has not fallen in anything like the same way. Indeed, it hit a maximum of 571,000 (excluding casuals) in 1977, before declining to a low of 479,000 (now including casuals) in Q1 1999. This number then started to rise again, plateauing at around 538,000 in 2004 before Chancellor of the Exchequer Gordon Brown announced in July 2004 that he intended to cut c.84,150
posts, whilst creating a number of new posts in the front line so that the net reduction would be c.70,600. Civil service numbers were subsequently increased by the transfer of 11,000 fte magistrates court staff from local authority control to the new central government courts service. The then chancellor’s (now Prime Minister’s) target is therefore
currently around 480,000. Around 50,000 savings had come through by mid 2007, so that the total then stood at 499,000, leaving around 19,000savings yet to achieved over the one and a half years to the deadline at theend of 2008.
162

Daveunderwater,

01/08/2008 22:18:12
http://www.civilservant.org.uk/numbers.pdf
163

Daveunderwater,

01/08/2008 22:19:00
Gershon

And then we come to the Gershon (and Gordon Brown) efficiency programme.

Sir Peter Gershon first reported to Cabinet a week or so before the above announcements. Because he expected strong opposition, he did not discuss his recommendations with key members of Cabinet in advance, and indeed his recommendations were not then published. The perhaps inevitable result was that shock value of his comments led to the opposition initially being even stronger than would otherwise be the case.

Sir Peter's report was eventually published on 12 July 2004. It is notable for not including a summary which (deliberately or otherwise) makes it hard for commentators to either attack or support it. In short, however, he recommended that 84,000 civil service jobs might be cut, and £20bn saved each year from 2007-8, as a result of four types of efficiency gain. First, Gershon believed that most "back-office functions" such as personnel management and finance could be contracted out and/or shared with other departments. Second, he thought that significant savings could be made by rationalising the large number of non-departmental public bodies ("quangos"). Third, he wanted to see an overhaul of the way government handles IT. Fourth, he wanted to see major improvements in procurement practices.
164

Daveunderwater,

01/08/2008 22:22:55
There is no more important organisation in the UK than the civil service. It
is the engine of the British state. No government, of any political persuasion,
can hope to achieve its aims without a well-run, high-performing civil
service. This is perhaps particularly true of a government, like the present
one, which has made public service reform a defining priority. But it is not just ministers who rely on the civil service. Local government, the National Health Service, schools, the police service, universities, the armed forces,the railway system, and the voluntary and private sectors all depend on it too. It shapes our lives – and life chances – in countless ways.

Scary stuff
165

Daveunderwater,

01/08/2008 22:23:57
http://www.civilservant.org.uk/ippr2006summary.pdf

And from the Civil servants website paid by Schhh you know who?
166

Daveunderwater,

01/08/2008 22:28:51
http://www.civilservice-pensions.gov.uk/Calculators.aspx
167

Daveunderwater,

01/08/2008 22:30:23
The latest figures

Some headline facts from ONS reports are shown below, with the date of the report they are taken from in brackets.

There are currently 490,000 (FTE) civil servants, of which 53 per cent are women (QPSES Q1, 2008).
168

brownlie,

01/08/2008 22:57:46
183 Meths

Don't go - we value your contribution! If you do go there will be one less sensible "ordinary" poster!
169

Maisie from Morningside,

02/08/2008 02:59:52
Are you really suggesting that the Labour party's union paymasters are engineering a strike in revenge for their humiliation at Glasgow East?
It sounds plausible.
170

inkster,

02/08/2008 07:46:19
Sorry to bore everybody who is interested in the subject but this is for Miss H the egotistical troll regarding the generic term "civil servant"

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



The term civil service has two distinct meanings:
Branch of governmental service in which individuals are hired on the basis of merit which is proven by the use of competitive examinations.
Body of employees in any government agency, except the military.

A civil servant or public servant is a civilian career public sector employee working for a government department or agency. The term explicitly excludes the armed services, although civilian officials will work at "Defence Ministry" headquarters. The term always includes the (sovereign) state's employees; whether regional, or sub-state, or even municipal employees are called "civil servants" varies from country to country. In the United Kingdom, for instance, only Crown employees are civil servants, county or city employees are not.

Many consider the study of civil service to be a part of the field of public administration. Workers in "non-departmental public bodies" (sometimes called "QUANGOs") may also be classed as civil servants for the purpose of statistics and possibly for their terms and conditions. Collectively a state's civil servants form its Civil Service or Public Service.
171

Thistledhu,

02/08/2008 11:56:18
Unison are claiming a 70% vote for the strike, the reality is that only 36% of the membership actualy voted with 30% of the casted vote saying NO.

I have seen the UNISON dispute timeline where the consultation period was deliberatly kept short (less than a week) and Targeted on the Less bright Members( a shop stewards words) a voteing period in july with A large number of members on holiday and coupled with members not receiving a ballot card at all.

The end state is a planned strike Aug/early SEPT to coincide with schools returning in order to cause the greatest disruption and hardship.

All this laid out before Even the consultation process(which was a joke) let alone a vote was carried out.

Basicly the Union Manderins decided there would be a strike back in Febuary /March perhaps even last year. a strike that will hurt the most vulnerable; single parents, the Elderly, Disabled the list goes on. then of course disregarding the long term Effects on the unions own membership cuts in staffing or services would be the inevitable result of a 5% increase.

Unison are treating the people of this country and their own members with Disdain for what ? political advantage within the Labour movement perhaps!!
172

Unrepentant Dinosaur,

Scotland 02/08/2008 18:20:25
As one of the much maligned public sector workers glutting myself on the productive efforts of the private sector e.g. IT providers who don't provide at a very high cost and Facilities managers who can only manage to blame any repairs on vandalism or acts of God for equally outrageous fiscal outlays I am rather disgusted that although councils have been making significant cuts over the past ten years it is only now that my union is shaking its collective fist at Holyrood. Why do you suppose that might be? Why now are we looking at strike action against these cuts? I'm sure it can't be simply because of narrow minded partisan thinking or cheap opportunism to be heroes of the people without offending their political pals?

As for the private is better than public debate I have been in my job long enough to see both. Frankly they are both equally useless. Whether due to incompetence or money grabbing capitalism makes little difference to the outcome for those of us actually working very hard to a thankless and stressful job which every is quick to criticise but oddly enough don't seem to be queuing up to do.

Bored with my job? No. Frustrated by lack of resources and trite know-it-alls telling me how to do it better? Yes. Just get all the eunuchs out of the harem and let us with the wherewithall get on with the job. Most public services aren't overstaffed as over-managed and under-led, but I'm sure that never happens in the private sector: big fat overpaid managers filling their bank accounts on the achievements of others.
173

Eve,

Scotland 02/08/2008 20:28:26
#176 iainmonty: Really!!! It's seem like it's been £5.52 for ages!!

I'm 90% sure that it hasn't went up every year since it began in 1999 (or was it 1998. One of the 2.).

Cause from between 1999 & 2002 the min wage for 18- 21's went from £3 to ~£3.50. 50p raise in 3/4years.

I'm pertty sure the last time min wag went up it was by a few pennys which would possible go on income tax at the start of the next tax year.
174

Shaken,

04/08/2008 15:59:59
#190
In my experience of the public sector, there are too many managers, middle managers and individuals who could never hack it in a the private sector.

Why? - Accountability, abscence and performance are all alien concept to the duffers I have encountered in quite senior positions.

oh yes and nepitism - keep it in the family.

Vive la SNP!
175

Hickory,

US 05/08/2008 02:09:21
Aye, it's the same over here. The civilian folks have to make do with higher taxes and no income increase. yet, the civil servants get raises. Improve the economy and all get increases.

 

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