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Expat Scots should be given vote in Holyrood elections, says think tank

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Published Date: 17 March 2009
EXPATRIATE Scots should be given the right to vote in Holyrood elections to rebuild their links and commitment to the nation of their birth, a conference will be told next week.
Scotland's Homecoming celebrations marking the 250th birthday of Robert Burns will be held up as an example of how one part of the UK is making efforts to re-engage with the "diaspora" of its citizens living abroad.

A research paper drawn up by th
e Institute for Public Policy Research think-tank will be presented to a Foreign Office conference of UK ambassadors in London, The Scotsman has learned.

But it will mix praise with a call for greater action from the Scottish Government – such as tax breaks and resettlement grants – to attract Scots back to their homeland.

And there is criticism of the Homecoming festival, which the IPPR views as "a bit fluffy" and unlikely to convince expats to return permanently to Scotland.

The IPPR is conducting the work as a follow-up to its 2006 report Brits Abroad, which found that around 5.5 million UK citizens lived outside Britain.

Jill Rutter, the IPPR's senior research fellow on migration, equalities and citizenship, said she planned to visit Scotland throughout the year to speak to expats returning to take part in Homecoming events.

While the number of UK citizens emigrating each year has fallen – from 185,000 in 2005 to 171,000 in 2007 – she said more could be done to reverse the "brain drain" of talented Scots leaving..

Scotland's population, after years of decline, is projected to rise gradually but Ms Rutter said offering expat Scots the chance to vote in Scottish parliament elections could help cement a bond.

She said: "It would be a way of maintaining positive links with Scotland. Those emigrants who have maintained links to their home country are those who are likely to re-migrate. Also, those emigrants with positive links to their home country are more likely to champion Scotland."

At present, UK citizens living abroad can vote in UK general elections and European Parliament elections, but must register annually. They are not entitled to vote in local council elections or to devolved parliaments.

Ms Rutter said: "One of the ways of linking with these emigrant communities is by voting. We recommend that for the devolved elections, UK nationals be given the right to vote."

She said of the Homecoming: "The initiative seems a bit fluffy. I think it's a bit lacking in focus."

A spokesman for First Minister Alex Salmond said: "Homecoming is about turning a threatened visitor downturn into a tourist boom, and aims to generate an additional £40 million. Control of Scottish Parliament elections rests with the UK government. However, we support the findings of the Gould Report, which recommended that responsibility should transfer to Scotland."





Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 16 March 2009 9:52 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

RufusT-Firefly,

16/03/2009 22:28:13
Has April 1st come early this year?

The Institute for Public Policy Research think-tank?

You would get more sense out of a fish tank.

If Expatriate Scots are to be given the vote, then they should first of all declare their earnings and then pay the appropriate rate of tax to the HMRC.
2

,

17/03/2009 00:02:16
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3

,

17/03/2009 00:02:26
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4

RufusT-Firefly,

17/03/2009 00:07:14
3 Traquir , Alba,17/03/2009 00:02:26

The SNP took a tanking in the poll.

Independence will only ever happen in your dreams.

Get over it.
5

RufusT-Firefly,

17/03/2009 00:09:32
3 Traquir , Alba,17/03/2009 00:02:26
It would appear a reasonably good guess would be
that the polling was done in Glasgow area Labour
fiefdoms (such as Paisley and Inverclyde)
and apparently also Bearsden judging by the
Tory poll numbers relative to the SNP :)
=========================================================

YEAH RIGHT!

Traquir is so clever he even knows where the poll was conducted.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Traquir, the man whom the You Tube website was named after.
6

redcliffe62,

17/03/2009 00:12:36
if the snp are not even a category in the survey, down as "others", then the results are flawed. even rufus can comprehend that.
if the snp were in thew survey and tories and liberals were bundled together as "others" as they make up less than 20% of voters he would have had a hernia. and results would have again been very different.
7

Thomas79,

Ayrshire 17/03/2009 00:15:59
5 RufusT-Firefly

There was a real life election just they other day in Dundee.

The SNP won and got 48%. Way ahead of Labour

And don't forget the SNP conference is due, all parties have a bounce after their conference.

Normal service (an SNP lead) will no doubt resume after that.
8

Marga,

Edinburgh 17/03/2009 00:18:58
Sorry, Scotsman, got it wrong again, but apparently so did the IPPR:

"At present, UK citizens living abroad can vote in UK general elections and European Parliament elections, but must register annually. They are not entitled to vote in local council elections or to devolved parliaments."

Not true. Even if they pay council tax from a UK address, UK citizens who have not been resident in Britain for more than 15 years lose all right to vote in any British elections, national elections included, and often cannot vote in national elections in other EU countries either, only in municipal and European elections.
9

,

17/03/2009 00:19:00
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10

,

17/03/2009 00:22:46
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11

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 17/03/2009 00:23:01
2 Traquir alba, just what I was thinking, unionists will be gagging on their bile at this suggestion.

Great stuff!
12

,

17/03/2009 00:28:27
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13

redcliffe62,

17/03/2009 00:29:09
traquir, sorry do not agree. you pay your taxes or take your benefits then you can vote.
14

drunken proffet,

Tassy 17/03/2009 00:38:04
Although I like the idea, I reckon the guys who live and pay their taxes their should be the only ones with the vote. Us expats can signify our feelings by investing in the Scotland Future Fund when it gets up and running. For instance, in my case, if the SNP gets in, I invest. If the Labour succeeds, I pull my money out before they spend it. Finally if the Conservatives gain power, I leave my money in since this is obviously going to be a time of miracles.
15

redcliffe62,

17/03/2009 00:42:32
i downloaded domhair via bit torrent, took 6 hours, and programme itself was interesting, although discussion with pollies from the 70's and civil servants as to their motives and who instructed them would have helped to balance it. asking tavish his thoughtys on orknet, and what grimond's would have been might have been a good touch. but only an hour so i guess messages was the order of the day.
the 1947 covenant was new to me, if 2 million scots really demanded a right to autonomy within the uk at that time. that is more than a referendum, it was amandate for change.
16

Gorach,

Freuchie 17/03/2009 00:47:37
Nice thought but it won't be allowed.
Ex Pats will vote SNP.

If allowed, they would also give billions to the Scottish government annually.

The power of Scots abroad is awesome.A fact known by the SNP and its foes.
17

redcliffe62,

17/03/2009 00:50:48
so the poll had 2 and a half times more labour affiliated voters than the snp. flawed. and worthless.
time someone did a proper poll without trying to falsify outcomes either way.
18

Conan,

Moffat 17/03/2009 00:51:04
It seems reasonable for those who have only been living outside Scotland for a few years to be able to continue to vote in all elections ... a few years maybe being up to 5 years. Anything over that and I reckon their attention is 'elsewhere' and they should vote 'elesewhere', accordingly. The 15 years mentioned above as being the cutoff is simply too long.
19

David T.,

Edinburgh 17/03/2009 01:00:14
No Taxation without representation. No representation without taxation. If you don't pay your taxes in Scotland why the hell should you be allowed to vote in Scotland.

The Scottish Parliament exists to represent the interests of those who live in Scotland irrespective of their birthplace not those who were born here but have chosen to leave.
20

Los Angeles,

17/03/2009 01:00:40

"HAHAHAHA" (Rufus T. Firefly)

I take it this hyena of an abberation is Psycho Sam of old now plagiarising Groucho Marx?

21

Los Angeles,

17/03/2009 01:05:53
"No Taxation without representation. No representation without taxation. If you don't pay your taxes in Scotland why the hell should you be allowed to vote in Scotland." (David)

You paraphrase the American rebels. Can you tell us the status of Americans who do not pay tax and their right to vote.

For your information, 72% of the USA's biggest companies DO NOT pay corporate tax ... a result of aggressive and very sly accountancy advisers. Yet all their executives, many who live off shore, are allowed to vote in elections.

Once a US citizen, always a US citizen.


22

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17/03/2009 01:41:38
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23

Edward,

17/03/2009 02:17:54
The weekend You Gov/Sunday Times poll has been found to be flawed as 40% of those questioned were Labour party supporters and in regards to the Independence questions, a massive 59% of those questioned were already supporters of the three opposition parties in Holyrood
24

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 17/03/2009 02:30:20
I like what expats represent. An mind independent of a bungling Labour state.

The only parties that has anything to fear from the expats vote are Labour and the LibDems ..... bring it on and let the expats rid us completely of the Labour monster !

19:- that argument is a sham - why are folk on the dole and in jails allowed to vote by that token ??
25

Hamish MacBeth,

NZ 17/03/2009 03:18:56

FANTASTIC IDEA!!!
Here in NZ I meet plenty of Scots that moved because they were sick of the fact that Scotland was not allowed to run it’s own affairs.

Bring it on, and Scotland would be independent by 2011. But of course the fascist state that Britain is ruled by London would never allow it.
STILL WE HAVE TO KEEP SREADING THE WORD BECAUSE SURE AS HELL THE SCOTSMAN IS NOT DOING THAT!
Oh dear Rufus you must of really spat out your dummy and thrown your teddy out of the pram to resort to insults like the one you've used in post 5. Very childish, and still you can't get it through your stupid head that we are open to debate, however we will never be put off by your juvenile rants.
26

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 17/03/2009 03:29:25
Unless the Congress of a Nation can issue and regulate its own currency, it's, in effect, under control of the international bankers. How this can be done in the 21st century doesn't get the popular debate and expertise it needs.

For the first asset of a nation is its people. Of diverse sorts, yet the government of the nation would also supervise national assets like roads, railways, water, electricity supply, bridges, ferries etc and on the metaphysical side: schools and institutes of advanced learing.

There were kingdoms in the past (that suffered the variagesies of human genetics) until a Republic was seen as the best way for human technological advancement to benefit the people. A true republic also sets limits to the powers of central government.
27

Jo'Burg Jock,

17/03/2009 04:35:14
To all you unionist clowns, especially

RufusT-Firefly,16/03/2009 22:28:13


"At present, UK citizens living abroad can vote in UK general elections and European Parliament elections, but must register annually. They are not entitled to vote in local council elections or to devolved parliaments."

The time limit is 15 years.

The recommendation for expat Scots to be given the vote in Holyrood elections would bring Scotland in line with u.k. general elections and European Parliament elections.

The situation at present is another example of the way that the british treat the Scots as second class yokels.


28

Peripatetic Pensioner,

travelling for cheap beer 17/03/2009 05:11:47
It's simple, if you don't live here, you don't vote here. Expats left 'cos thet couldn't hack in Scotland, therefore if they don't pay taxes to the UK/Scotish government they do notget a say.
29

,

17/03/2009 05:13:17
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30

Peripatetic Pensioner,

travelling for cheap beer 17/03/2009 05:14:54
It's simple, if you don't live here, you don't vote here. Expats left 'cos they couldn't or didn't want to hack it in Scotland, therefore if they don't pay taxes to the UK/Scotish government they do not get a say.
31

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 17/03/2009 05:18:59
I see Labour trolls are out again faking ID's. Still imitation is the sincerest from of flattery - or in this case the clearest indication of fear.

Disagree with this. If you don't live in the place at least part of the time, excluding holidays, then you don't vote. That's why the term is EX-pat.
32

Champion Haggis Slayer of Fife,

Outer Space 17/03/2009 05:48:06
Great Idea.

I fully support it.

Hope its in place before the next election.
33

,

17/03/2009 05:49:13
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34

Champion Haggis Slayer of Fife,

Inner Space 17/03/2009 05:50:23
#28,29,30

What utter diatribe! When did you become an expert on why Ex-pats leave Scotland? Give all scots born here a vote whether they live here or not. Its the fairest and most democratic thing Alex can do.
35

walter,

17/03/2009 05:56:43
No one who does not live in the country should be allowed to vote on the representative of the country unless they pay taxes to the country.
I include all elections not just devolved parliaments and councils when I say that.
If these people want a say in what happens in Scotland and the future of Scotland then they can either pay taxes or return.
36

Angleland Isover,

17/03/2009 06:38:05
Why must expat Scots have to pay taxes to england in order to be able to vote in Scotland ?.
37

drunken proffet,

Tassy 17/03/2009 06:38:30
I agree with Walter, if you do not live in the country and pay taxes then you cannot elect politicians or councillors. It is like voting for a canditate by the colour of the ribbons round his neck rather than knowing the calibre of the man and what he stands for. As far as #29 is concerned, the majority left to look for a better life for their families. They experienced loss of friends, social life and quite often suffered from home sickness. The only time they could not hack it was when comparing their current lifestyle and what they could expect back home. You sometimes joke about the abysmal weather but at the end of the day what got up your left nostril was the Communist Manifesto and the old Trade Union movement. I still notice some real head bangers in some of the other posts. But generally speaking the Labour movement is moving into the 21st century courtesy of Tony Blair and George Brown and evidently the Trade Union movement is concentrating on retaining jobs and improving conditions. As a matter of interest, the Communist Manifesto is interesting reading and can be accessed at the Gutenberg website.
38

drunken proffet,

Tassy 17/03/2009 06:42:47
You may also read Mein Kamp which has a similar ring to it and full of "sensible" suggestions.
39

walter,

17/03/2009 06:46:56
#7
In 2007 Maryfield voted to elect 3 councilors.
In that election the SNP received 2188 votes and ended up with 2 councilors.
Labour received 1172 votes and ended up with 1 councilor.
The Labour councilor resigned, in the by election held to elect the 3rd councilor the SNP won the seat with 1550 vote (638 less than they received in 2007) beating Labour who received 1013 votes (158 less than they received in 2007)
It is not a victory in the way that the Labour vote is swinging to the SNP nor is it a victory that the SNP vote is rising.
I suspect that at the next council elections Maryfield will have 2 SNP and 1 Labour councilors.
However if then the SNP get 3 councilors I will happily admit that it is the victory for the SNP that you are trying to proclaim this by election result to be.
40

walter,

17/03/2009 06:50:21
#36
They would not pay taxes to England, where do you get your information from.
41

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 17/03/2009 07:19:09
The IPPR was formed in 1988, in the wake of Labour's third successive election defeat, to act as a dynamic, independent catalyst for progressive thinking on the centre-left.
Let them introduce this for Westminster, EU, Local Authority and devolved parliaments.
Only qualification being that the ex-pat pays the appropriate taxes.
42

Otis B. Driftwood,

Abroad 17/03/2009 07:21:37
*11 - Be carefull what you wish for .. lot's more "postal votes" :-)
43

KennethM,

17/03/2009 07:25:04
Get a grip folks.

Many "expats" haven't actually left for ever... they've maybe just gone abroad for a few years to get some international work experience, or to experience different cultures and languages first hand. And what's wrong with that? Isn't it a bit of a wasted opportunity to only live in your home country for your whole life?

Anyway, the fact is that said expats can vote in UK general elections (for 15 years after leaving), which means that if they were previously registered in an English constituency they can influence health and education policies in England while they are abroad. Someone who was previously registered in a Scottish constituency, however, can't vote in elections to Holyrood, which means there is an imbalance in the level to which Scottish and English expats can influence events at home. This, surely, should be corrected.
44

lulach mac gille coemgain,

17/03/2009 07:41:20
I think it should be up to Poland to decide.
45

tartan army 2222,

17/03/2009 07:42:21
A perfectly reasonable suggestion, despite the expected protestations of Brit Nats like Rufus. I have a couple of friends who live abroad and they both consider themselves Scots through and through. They both return home twice each year, and indeed, they'll both be making the long trip to Amsterdam for the upcoming Scotland game. I would go as far as to say they are more Scottish than people like Rufus who cringe each time we express our Scottishness.
46

,

17/03/2009 07:48:23
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47

,

17/03/2009 07:54:30
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48

,

17/03/2009 08:05:03
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49

Linda,

Edinburgh 17/03/2009 08:06:42
It's bad enough that the London parties are financed and supported via Tyneside Call Centres from outwith Scotland for Scottish Parliamentary elections.

There is no such animal as the "Scottish" Labour Tory or Lib Dem parties as they are not registed political parties and should not be allowed to use that nomenclature.
50

tartan army 2222,

17/03/2009 08:12:20
49 smee

If they were born in Scotland then yes, I would give them the vote. Political affiliation has no bearing on my belief that ex-pats should be given the vote.

Got it yet?
51

Brodric,

17/03/2009 08:16:31
I think this makes sense. Ex-pats working and living abroad, who are still connected to this country, some by paying tax and owning homes, should be allowed to vote in Scottish local elections. Why? Because the Scottish parliament is devolved and a UK parliamentary election vote only could be a vote misplaced in the focus on the development of Scotland.

As for the Homecoming, I think its a good idea, but the SNP should be a bit more honest about their support for it - and ask expat Scots outright to support the country - telling them what they can do; and to assist bodies and organisations get the financial or in-kind support that would promote Scotland abroad and bring investments and tourists in. This is an even better idea.
52

walter,

17/03/2009 08:16:49
#44
Two wrongs don't make a right.

#46
Good for your friends to remember the old country even though they have turned their backs on it.
Can we Scots who have not deserted the country have a vote on how they are governed in their new homeland.
53

,

17/03/2009 08:20:33
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54

Stan Butler,

17/03/2009 08:26:46


Would this proposal include octogenarians living in tax exile in The Bahamas?

How exciting!
55

,

17/03/2009 08:30:50
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56

Gobsmacked,

west kilbride 17/03/2009 08:35:44
#Rufus T Firefly, you've hit the nail on the head - there's nothing more to say on this ludicrous idea.
57

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 17/03/2009 08:37:24

#40
The SNP share of the vote in Maryfield increased from 44.36% in May 2007 to 47.60% in March 2009.

This does not appear to indicate that the SNP are in any immediate danger of losing this seat at the next election.

58

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 17/03/2009 08:41:00
Where is today’s raft of “Blow to SNP as...............” stories?
59

,

17/03/2009 08:42:41
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60

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 17/03/2009 08:54:28
Peripatetic Pensioner,travelling for cheap beer 17/03/2009 05:11:47

"if you don't live here, you don't vote here"

Sounds like a very noble saying. I am curious if you are as noble on your opinion of that british abomination - the HOUSE OF LORDS.

I am really at a loss to understand why some people are against expats voting in our Native Land when non elected cretins and crooks are accepted as the norm to legislate on their behalf.
61

The Ayrshire Bard,

17/03/2009 08:54:54
I fear for Scotland as the country becomes divided by bigotry on both sides. I worry about the reaction of some of the 'Braveheart' followers should they be defeated in the polls. We are seeing the unpleasant side of Scottish racism as people are attacked simply for being English. God help us if they are the representatives of an independent Scotland. Many of the postings in the columns of this paper are plain nasty and vitriolic, far removed from the Scotland I love.
62

aljok.23,

the world 17/03/2009 08:57:42
With 10% of Scotlands population English born I would prefer the rules to state you must be Scottish born to vote.
63

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 17/03/2009 09:04:14
The Ayrshire Bard,17/03/2009 08:54:54

"I fear for Scotland as the country becomes divided by bigotry on both sides"

Here we go! the unionists scaremongering has started.

You do not "love" Scotland you love subjugation by a foreign government, but you are probably not Scottish anyway.
64

Doh,

17/03/2009 09:05:50


This ideas is as wrong as the SNP proposal to put our forests into private hands.

Anyone who has emigrated, left the country on a long term basis - should not be entitled to vote.

No representation without taxation.
65

walter,

17/03/2009 09:18:08
#61
The SNP share of the vote in Maryfield increased from 44.36% in May 2007 to 47.60% in March 2009.

This does not appear to indicate that the SNP are in any immediate danger of losing this seat at the next election.


2009 results SNP 1550 (47.6%, +3.2), Lab 1013 (31.1%; +0.5), Do you really believe that the SNP will win all 3 seats at the next election.
There is a big difference when it come to a by election to elect one candidate and the elections to elect three candidates.

#62
Don't like facts, turn to abuse sounds about right.
Why not do the world a favour and take a long walk off a short pier.
66

Mark Insch,

17/03/2009 09:19:11
"Expat Scots should be given vote in Holyrood elections, says think tank"

Never mind given a vote, certain expats (Shir Shawn for example) should be given an honorary seat in Holyrood!
67

Joanna,

Cambs, England 17/03/2009 09:26:08
I was born in Scotland, lived there off and on for the first 12 years of my life and have lived there for occasional periods since. I have Scottish and English ancestors and relations. However, I have spent more time in England and abroad during my lifetime than I have in Scotland.

I speak with an English accent.

Am I eligible to vote in a Scottish election?
68

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 17/03/2009 09:29:04
It is all very anecdotal I know, but I meet up occasionally with a group of around a dozen or so returned ex-pats covering a variety of industries including oil, construction, military and finance, amongst others.

Apart from having lived and worked abroad for sometime, and sharing a taste for Scottish beers, this small group all share one other interesting thing in common, without exception, they all vote for the same political party in elections.

Truly, the Scottish (Inter) National Party.
69

Graeme,

Guangzhou 17/03/2009 09:34:10
Ok, I have lived abroad for approx 20 years. I pay UK tax and local Scottish tax.

Tax wise I am domiciled in the UK

I think I should be able to vote
70

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 17/03/2009 09:35:14
#80
If you are on the voters’ roll in Scotland, then yes.

If not, then no.
71

Dear_Gordon,

17/03/2009 09:36:35
I'm not so certain that an Expat vote would be more pro SNP than a "home" vote.

The SNP vote has risen pretty fast in the last 5 years. A lot of Expats will remember the "Old Labour" Scotland of their youth with fondness.

Also the IIPR is a Labour minded think tank. Worth bearing that in mind when mulling over their good ideas.

It seems a reasonable argument that they put forward though; given that Expats can vote in Westminster elections for 15 years, why should it be different for Holyrood?

Why should a Geordie living in Germany get to influence Health and Education policy applied in Newcastle, but a Glaswegian living in France not have the same influence over the same policies as applied in Glasgow?

I think the Think Tank raise an interesting point worthy of consideration.
72

awhl,

17/03/2009 09:37:08
As an aside will expats living in England, really vote for independence given that membership of the EU for Scotland is not yet settled. How many of these great scottish patriots would give up their current status for that of a alien resident with all the hassle that would include. Irony of Irony they would probably then have to apply to become residents of the rump british state!
It is not yet clear that membership of the EU is compatible with SNP policy.
It is no wonder that the SNP are falling in popularity, given the difference between their rhetoric and reality. Even today when Unite and the voluntary sector are protesting at their cuts the spokesman spouts the same kind of rubbish that the tories used too about things being better than ever and its not their fault if they aren't. What a bunch of clowns
73

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 17/03/2009 09:38:30
#85

I would hazard a guess that I know more “Nats” than you do, and I have never heard such an opinion being expressed.
74

Joanna,

Cambs, England 17/03/2009 09:39:46
The Spook @ 83

I don't think I'll be writing to anyone, but its an interesting point, there must be lots of other people who are similar to me (Tony Blair for a start!). That's a lot of voters who would have to be accounted for or excluded. I think the think-tank are opening a can of worms with this one.

75

AJM,

17/03/2009 09:44:46
I think that this think tank as done a bit too much thinking. Homecoming 2009 has nothing to do with encouraging ex-pats to return. Homecoming is seriously flawed due to political interference but that ia another thread.

#82 BWA of course they vote like that. The vaste majority of expats always are more Scottish than those that live here. Just like the English ex-pats. They are peas out of the same British pod.
76

AJM,

17/03/2009 09:50:38
#88 awhl I think you can be assured the fishing proposal of the SNP will lead to an independent Scotland being barred from the EU.

I think you can also be assured, as we are seeing with any other major SNP policy, they are only there to get a vote so they can secure independence, they are not there to be enacted in any way. Unless of course popular, easy and cheap like toll charges.
77

walter,

17/03/2009 09:51:10
#79
the fact is the SNP won the by-election and Labour lost.

A fact I have not even tried to deny.
The fact remains that in 2007 when Maryfield was voting to elect 3 councilors the SNP got 44.4% of the vote and that got them 2 councilors, Labour got 30.6% of the vote and that got them 1 councilor.
That is 75% of the vote for those 3 councilors.
I do not believe that the SNP are going to wipe out 10000 + votes to get the 3 seats that will be up for grabs at the next election, but if you and others believe it then we can just wait.
You can concentrate your vote for one candidate in a by election that does not happen in the council elections.
78

AJM,

17/03/2009 09:53:37
#94 Spook I think I may be in complete agreement. This is a daft idea and will throw up all sorts of problems. We would have ex-pat Scots who are English, EU etc born and Scots born people illegible to vote.
79

aljok.23,

the world 17/03/2009 09:54:07
this think tank may be working out how to get as many postal votes through the scottish elections and referendums as possible so to leave it more open to the perpetrated corruption displayed in the Glenrothes By-election.
Is that enough of a wind up for you Spook?
80

Number 6,

Germany 17/03/2009 10:09:57
Excellent idea.
Especially if we made all Scots outside the country on the day of the GE, right a letter applying for citizenship.

I would also have a citizenship ceremony. Can you imagine Labours gang of london controlled Scottish MPs
having to justify why they want to live in Scotland.
The irony is just wonderful.

I would cap it all by making them sing the Scottish National Anthem, what ever that may be at the time.
It would appear on YOUTUBE before Brown could say "Tartan Tory".

Seriously,

Scotland needs to get it's act together before people like myself would consider returning on a permanent basis. Compared with much of Europe, Scotland is too dirty, too violent, too unhealthy and frankily, in terms of public transport and infrastructure its backward.

Scotland needs to seen to be addressing these problems,
neglected for so long by the unionista parties, before the majority of the Diaspora will consider returning permanently.
81

brownlie,

17/03/2009 10:11:22
85 sm753

Alan Tait was born in Kelso but has an English accent. According to his book he found a degree of discrimination in the British Lions squad against Scots. That is straight from the horse's mouth and not from imaginary friends.
82

,

17/03/2009 10:12:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
83

Castaway™ ,

Manila 17/03/2009 10:20:29
The proposal isn't about those who are already eligible to vote in the SP elections but recommends that for the devolved elections, UK nationals (citizens) be given the right to vote.

UK nationals doesn't mean anyone living outside the devolved administrations in the UK be given the right to vote in the devolved elections but UK nationals(citizens) who have the right of abode in the UK.

UK nationals meaning:- These are British citizens, British subjects under Part IV of the British Nationality Act 1981 having the right of abode in the UK, and British Dependent Territories citizens acquiring their citizenship from connection with Gibraltar.

If this goes ahead I would imagine there would be some form of filtering applied ie having been born within the devolved administration.

BTW-I am UK citizen, I pay UK tax and I will continue to pay UK tax after I have lost my right to vote in British elections in 5 years time.
84

brownlie,

17/03/2009 10:21:36
One would imagine that the Labour UK Government will welcome this with open arms and a degree of gratitude - all these postal votes to be counted.
85

Good debator,

17/03/2009 10:25:00
I totally agree that people not here should vote, this is progress.

Can I vote in American elections, not yet because there's no independence, but after independence all Scots can vote in all elections worldwide because we won't have england oppressing us.

Can we let Muslims in the middle east vote too here? We have our army there after all and maybe those nice people would like a say. Do you support an illegal war or advocate torture? I don't, that is why I want all foreigners to have a vote here, especially those nice muslims who would vote in Scotland's interests and not their own.

What a good idea!
86

Los Angeles,

17/03/2009 10:25:35
"Scotland needs to get it's act together before people like myself would consider returning on a permanent basis. Compared with much of Europe, Scotland is too dirty, too violent, too unhealthy and frankily, in terms of public transport and infrastructure its backward."
(Number6)

On Internet sites the uninformed have a tendency to make pronouncements inversely proportional to their ignorance.

And in this contributer's case he or she appears to feel free to talk on behalf of all Scots working or living abroad.

Thanks but no thanks.
87

Son of Justice,

under the yoke of smug separatism 17/03/2009 10:28:55
Of course the Gnats would love all expat Scots to have a vote. They could expect to rake in bucketloads of support from all the Brigadoonies-in-absentia who choose not to live here, choose not to work here, choose not to pay taxes here, and who have no real-life experience of life under the current SNP do-nothing dictatorship - all bullying bluster, broken manifesto pledges, fiscal paralysis, gesture politics and shadow-boxing with Westminster.

Sour Alba indeed
88

Los Angeles,

17/03/2009 10:28:56
"As we are seeing with other major SNP policy, they are only there to get a vote so they can secure independence," (AJM)

You counted them out and you counted them in, did you?
89

Fairfax,

17/03/2009 10:31:32
St Scotland (106): "The point of the matter is that you dont lose your Scottish identity when you arrive in America to work for 5 years, so why should you lose your rights?"

Roughly 10% of Scotland's population is English. Should they retain the right to vote in Scotland if they return to England for 5 years, say?
90

Los Angeles,

17/03/2009 10:32:20
"Who have no real-life experience of life under the current SNP do-nothing dictatorship - all bullying bluster, broken manifesto pledges, fiscal paralysis, gesture politics and shadow-boxing with Westminster." (Justice)

When it comes to justice your moniker doesn't mean what it says, does it?

And what in heaven's name is a "do nothing dictatorship"? Does Scotland have a brutal president sentencing malcontents from the side of his swimming pool to three weeks in Marbella?
91

Los Angeles,

17/03/2009 10:34:36
"Roughly 10% of Scotland's population is English. Should they retain the right to vote in Scotland if they return to England for 5 years, say?" (Fairfax)

You've just stated they are English. That means born in in England - unless you ha somewhere else in mind. On independence and they return to England that is where they vote.
92

,

17/03/2009 10:34:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
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93

Los Angeles,

17/03/2009 10:44:58

"If they don't pay taxes to the UK/Scotish (sic) government they do not get a say." (Pensioner)

Voting and paying taxes are NOT synonymous - as any unemployed or homeless person will tell you, or for that matter - pensioner.

94

MTE,

Edinburgh 17/03/2009 10:50:07
To all those who say no representation without taxation, just think: if paying income tax was a franchise criterion, how many people living in the UK would not be allowed to vote (the unemployed, students, some pensioners) or do you think paying VAT and other stealth taxes is enough? - in which case all an ex-pat would have to do to qualify in your terms is come here on holiday, pay a bit of VAT / alcohol duty and get a vote.
95

,

17/03/2009 10:51:10
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96

Number 6,

Germany 17/03/2009 10:51:23
110 Los Angeles you said :
"On Internet sites the uninformed have a tendency to make pronouncements inversely proportional to their ignorance.

And in this contributer's case he or she appears to feel free to talk on behalf of all Scots working or living abroad."



If you youself were not so ignorant then you would have read my post properly.

For your information I said "Before people like myself....". No where did I insinuate I was speaking on behalf of all Scots living abroad.

Think before you post.
97

hertscot,

17/03/2009 10:55:32
As an ex-pat, I wouldn't use any vote given to me, I don't pay tax in Scotland, and don't believe I have any right to determine how people are governed from another country. Although you have to admit it is a good ruse by the SNP, since most expats love their country, believe deeply in it's right to independence, and for the Scots to govern themselves.
And like me they believe all this while they drink whiskey and recite Burns in a foreign land, with no bloody intention of returning, until, they are ready to die or past the age of being economically active.
98

Observer,,

Glasgow 17/03/2009 10:57:14
It seems reasonable to extend voting rights to those people who are registered and eleigible to vote in Westminster elections. That would not entitle all ex-pats to a vote, and nor should it. It is the people who live in Scotland who will form the decision making body, not those who live outside it.
99

Los Angeles,

17/03/2009 10:58:23
Germany denies he said it:

"No where did I insinuate I was speaking on behalf of all Scots living abroad."

And here is wht he said:

"Scotland needs to seen to be addressing these problems, neglected for so long by the unionista parties, before the majority of the Diaspora will consider returning permanently"

Please tell us how many of the "majority" contacted you to express their reservations, anxieties based on your view of an imaginary Scotland, and to ask that you represent their concern on this website.

100

,

17/03/2009 10:59:09
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101

Los Angeles,

17/03/2009 11:03:27
"Although you have to admit it is a good ruse by the SNP," (Hertscot)

Laying aside we have no proof you are who you say, has it occured to you, and others like you, that giving votes to ex-pats will invariably include those who dislike independence and indeed might go so far as to vote against it?

Or is it only a detestation of the SNP that has you concluding any progressive policy suggested during an SNP tenure of government must, ipso facto, have a hidden agenda?



102

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 17/03/2009 11:05:26
Before considering extending the voting franchise to non-residents, consideration should be given first of all to ironing out the anomalies of the spoiled ballot forms in the Scottish General election and the curious case of the postal votes and the missing marked electoral roll in Glenrothes.

Unless and until confidence can be restored to the validity and accuracy of the existing voting procedures, thoughts of extending the existing franchise and potentially opening up the system to even more abuse are at best, premature.

103

ZenBroon,

London 17/03/2009 11:08:07
Well i'm an expat, though like the vast majority of us an economic migrant in England rather than a tax exile in the Bahamas.

IMO I'm an economic migrant partly because the union continues to be a f~~~~~ economic and political disaster for my country.

Would obviously therfore welcome the opportunity to vote in Holyrood elections and esp the referendum.

Expat voting rights are well established in the UK, why should we Scots be different?

I thought you unionists were supposed to be 'British' anyway and would support such UK-wide initiatives.
104

European Scot,

17/03/2009 11:12:32
121 hertsot

" . Although you have to admit it is a good ruse by the SNP, since most expats love their country, believe deeply in it's right to independence, and for the Scots to govern themselves. "

'A research paper drawn up by the Institute for Public Policy Research think-tank will be presented to a Foreign Office conference of UK ambassadors in London '

No this one is not a ruse by the SNP, the Brit State is a much more likely suspect !
Another excuse, and conduit for bundles of postal votes, come a referendum ?!

126 bully wee alba

Exactly
105

Scythia,

17/03/2009 11:12:47
Why is it perfectly acceptable for East European transient workers and other foreigners to vote here but not natives, many of whom will return ?.

Notice the cool response from the SNP spokesman. One might expect a Nationalist party to embrace such a suggestion,but of course wee ecks brand of 'civic' nationalism states anyone with a mail box here is 'Scots', and the very ties that link the exiled native such lineage,heritage and culture are quickly brushed aside as devisive.
106

Miss H,

17/03/2009 11:16:53
1 Rufus expatriate Scots are given the vote.

UK citizens who have moved abroad permanently may vote for 15 years in UK general elections and European elections after they have left the UK.

They cannot however vote in local government elections of Scottish Parliament elections.

Them's the rules.

Re the poll. Independence did not take a tanking Rufus. When asked if they believed that Scotland will become independent in the future 49% said yes compared to 34% who don't.

Also interesting that 60% of Lib Dem supporters support a referendum on independence in principle.

It's the timing people have a problem with not the idea itself.

107

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 17/03/2009 11:20:55
Everyone who buys and goods or services in the country pays tax in one form or another.

That tax may take the form of VAT or Excise Duty for example.

Even the downtrodden jaikie with his twenty Embassy and daily bottles of Buckfast and chemical cider is paying something towards the exchequer.

However, non-domiciled, non-resident, non-tax paying individuals, irrespective of their place of origin have in my humble opinion, forfeited any right to have a say in the governance of Scotland.
108

Los Angeles,

17/03/2009 11:21:07

"Notice the cool response from the SNP spokesman." (Scythia)

If that was so it might have something to do with the malpractice of unreliable Labour MPs such Douglas Alexander.

109

Darien,

Panama 17/03/2009 11:21:30
#122 Observer: "It is the people who live in Scotland who will form the decision making body, not those who live outside it."

This also has weaknesses. In my experience the people who are least likely to vote for Scotland's independence are English people who have settled in Scotland. In general they appear to believe their personal interests are better served by sticking with the British state. In the event of a Scottish state being established they would have to decide which nationality they wish to have - that would be either Scottish or what is left of Britain - but in any event it leaves them with a decision they may not exactly consider with much enthusiasm. So the status quo suits English people resident in Scotland, for convenience sake if nothing else. In some areas of Scotland they account for a significant % the electorate, so can have quite an influence on voting outcomes. But the fact they (or other non-Scots for that matter) are entitled to a vote on the highly significant issue of Scotland's nationhood at all must represent a potential distortion. Logically the more Anglicised Scotland becomes, the less likelihood there is of independence being achieved. Indeed that could have been/may still be a policy of successive Westminster Unionist Governments in their efforts to prevent Scottish independence.
110

Los Angeles,

17/03/2009 11:23:26
"However, non-domiciled, non-resident, non-tax paying individuals, irrespective of their place of origin have in my humble opinion, forfeited any right to have a say in the governance of Scotland." (Wee Alba)

Born in Scotland you should be able to vote in Scottish elections. The man or woman you talk of won't give a hoot. And there's a million of them in Spain called English.



111

Peeablo,

Back to the 70's 17/03/2009 11:27:18
Have to agree with the 'Spook'

If you live and work (pay taxes) in Scotland then you get to vote.

Otherwise, you don't.

Why is this so unfair?
112

Son of Justice,

17/03/2009 11:27:20
#114 - SNP members are better qualified than am I to comment upon the nature of Salmond's dictatorship. He has his admirers and detractors but even among his supporters very few would describe his style as inclusive or democratic. As with his Party, so with Scotland. King Smug does not tolerate dissent among his subjects.

Do-nothing means what it says. Here in Scotland currently, schools and hospitals are not getting renewed or upgraded, houses are not getting built, major projects are going nowhere. Manifesto promises are being ditched almost daily.

All we get is talk. And zealot apologist Brigadoonies on threads like this, who would have us believe that it is all the fault of the Union and that a different, more benevolent sun would somehow shine on a separatist Scotland.
113

Son of Justice,

17/03/2009 11:35:49
#126 - Still flogging the dead Glenothes horse, I see.

An incompetent SNP-run Council and an incompetent SNP-run Scottish Government agency somehow conspire between them to misplace a marked electoral register, and it is suddenly a conspiracy to conceal a Postal Vote fraud which somehow eluded all the Parties during the actual by-Election? Absurd.

These infantile attempts by the SNP to discredit the Glenothes result are nothing more than dirty smear politics to divert attention from the sound gubbing which the SNP suffered in Fife.

When you all grow up into an adult Party, maybe you will learn how to win with grace and lose with dignity. Both seem beyond your social skillset at present.
114

Observer,,

Glasgow 17/03/2009 11:36:49
133 That is a very dangerous road to go down. How do you define what a ''non-Scot'' is ? By a simple definition of place of birth Mike Russell is not Scottish, not was Bashir Ahmad. There is only one fair way of doing this, and that is to entitle all people who are registered to vote to have a say. Although I would extend the franchise to those who are registered to vote at Westminster elections.
115

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 17/03/2009 11:43:13
Son of Justice,
17/03/2009 11:27:20
“SNP members are better qualified than am I to comment upon the nature of Salmond's dictatorship. He has his admirers and detractors but even among his supporters very few would describe his style as inclusive or democratic. As with his Party, so with Scotland. King Smug does not tolerate dissent among his subjects.”


I must be one of those “very few (who) would describe his style as (being both) inclusive and democratic”

As evidence of this I would point to the recent promotions of former leadership opponents Roseanna Cunningham and Mike Russell.

Allied to that, I would also mention the recent elevation of long time adversary Alex Neil to the post of Government Minister.

It would appear that your statement is as vacuous as your moniker.

116

Los Angeles,

17/03/2009 11:47:26
"SNP this and SNP that - somehow conspire between them to misplace a marked electoral register." (Justice)

In Aussie parlance, stop playing silly b*gg**s.

A Voting Register HAS gone missing.

If you think it is of no importance, a small irregularity, then you must be the same guy who thought nothing of Sir Fred facing th sack yet doubling his pension overnight as his bank when down the drain.
117

DanishBird,

Fife 17/03/2009 11:49:18
The anomaly here is - as stated several time in the previous posts - that Scots (being British citizens)living abroad can vote in the UK parliamentary elections unless they have been away for more than 15 years. Tax and the right to vote are not intrinsically linked - any British citizen over the age of 18 listed on the voter's roll can vote regardless of whether they pay tax or not. No one would suggest stripping a housewife with no earnings of her own of her democratic right to a voice, would they?

The other side of the coin here is another anomaly: There is a large group of people living in UK, paying tax etc, who cannot vote and are effectively disenfranchised. To vote in the UK elections British citizenship is required. Within the EU over 90% of citizens have the right to obtain dual nationality which enables them to vote in the country which they live in, without being forced to give up the nationality which they were born into.

I am myself a Danish citizen and obtaining British citizenship would mean being forced to give up my Danish nationality. I am reluctant to relinquish my nationality because eg. it would effectively bar me from returning to Denmark at any point in the future. It would also strip my children of their Danish citizenship. This is without even beginning to consider the emotional arguments in being stripped of what is essentially your birthright. However, this of course means I cannot vote in UK elections despite paying tax, NI, council tax etc. I can vote in the Scottish parliamentary and local elections as I have been resident in Scotland for more than 3 years, although I cannot vote in Denmark - that right falls away after 2 years abroad. I have no wish whatsoever to vote in Denmark anyway - Scotland is my adopted home and I want to have my say HERE - in Scotland and the UK as I am directly affected by any legilation passed by the UK parliament.

118

Los Angeles,

17/03/2009 11:49:43

"Zealot apologist Brigadoonies on threads" (Justice)

You are whittling you life away posting Internet snark, forgotten almost as soon as it is brushed aside. Get a political argument or get a life.
119

Los Angeles,

17/03/2009 11:59:24
"If you live and work (pay taxes) in Scotland then you get to vote. Otherwise, you don't. Why is this so unfair?" (Peeablo)

For all the reasons stated already and overlooked by you. They include:

Soldiers, travellors, artists, actors, designers, architets, engineers, oil workers, scientists, explorers, housewives, students, pensioners, anybody forced to work outside Scotland because work was not available to them in their homeland, or the opportunity to develop their skills, or who were enticed abroad, people sent by their employer to work abroad and so be taxed at source abroad, and so on, and so forth.

All those anomalies are covered by democratic right to vote - a choice the individual can make whether sipping wine on a plane to Paris or studying ant colonies in the Amazon jungle.

To withdraw voting rights is to diminish democracy.

To diminish democracy is to be fearful of the electorate.
120

Number 6,

Germany 17/03/2009 12:06:32
123 Los Angeles,

FFS ..yes I still deny saying I speak for all Scots.

That was your initial allegation and it is still wrong.

The quote you have produced does not say "All Scots".

What's wrong with you ? have you the same handler as
Vincent-W? who I imagine at this very moment is straining at the leash, waiting to be deployed back onto these forums.

Grow UP.
121

Faux Cul,

€land 17/03/2009 12:10:54
Speaking as an ex-pat I think that anyone living in Scotland is not entitled to have an opinion whether I can vote in Scottish elections.

122

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 17/03/2009 12:11:34
134 Los Angeles,17/03/2009 11:23:26

I note that you contract my moniker to “Wee Alba” which perhaps suggests that you misinterpret the derivation of the name bully wee alba.

This is a common trait amongst the small band of unionista apologists who post on this site, and I usually ignore it.

However, as I understand that you may be someone who I may generally agree with, I will forgive you on this occasion.
123

Faux Cul,

17/03/2009 12:12:55
141 Danishbird

You in Coupar then?
124

Los Angeles,

17/03/2009 12:13:18
"I still deny saying I speak for all Scots." (Germany)

All you have posted is insult - a contribution wasted.
125

Los Angeles,

17/03/2009 12:15:28
"I note that you contract my moniker" (Wee Alba)

I truncate and edit as much as is wise to keep meaning clear and brevity uppermost. I hope you are not going to bully me about it.
126

Fairfax,

17/03/2009 12:18:35
St Scotland (116): "#113 - The article is about allowing people the chance to vote in the country of their birth - it is clearly visible in the first paragraph.So, if the 10% who you claim are English were born in Scotland then going to live in England is irrelivant."


The article does indeed consider votes based on country of birth. However, such questions do not remain narrow. Consider the following example: (i) an Englishman, resident in Scotland for 20 years say, then moving to England, and (ii) a child born in Scotland who has resided in the US since his first birthday. Why should one continue to vote in Scotland, but not the other?

As I mentioned in my earlier post, some 10% of Scotland's population consists of English immigrants, so the question is of relevance to many in Scotland.



127

Faux Cul,

17/03/2009 12:19:57
L A has been hiding out at the Herald but it is obvious that even he has given on on that wad of printed keich and has alighted in this dung fight.

That is, if it is the real LA?
128

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 17/03/2009 12:22:43
Faux Cul,17/03/2009 12:12:55 141 Danishbird

You in Coupar then?

More likely Cupar perhaps?
129

Faux Cul,

17/03/2009 12:24:31
A signed declaration of nationality or fealty to the supremacy of the Scottish Parliament should be enough and could perhaps be applied to temporary or transiting (to residency for election purposes) residents.

OK so there will always anomalies but could this not be worked on.

As a resident abroad I would be happy to register and pay say €100 for that honour.
130

,

17/03/2009 12:27:37
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131

Dylan fan,

Planet earth 17/03/2009 12:29:25
Well, hey, could it get any worse than who's voting now? lol
132

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 17/03/2009 12:30:40
149 Los Angeles,17/03/2009 12:15:28
"I note that you contract my moniker" (Wee Alba)

I truncate and edit as much as is wise to keep meaning clear and brevity uppermost. I hope you are not going to bully me about it.

I promise not to do so, as long as you promise not to belittle my country or my party.
Otherwise, you become as fair game as any unionista troll.
133

Number 6,

Germany 17/03/2009 12:33:29
155 So you were waiting in the wings !!!!!.

Has anyone any idea why he is posting those poll results on this thread?

It would seem his handler has his prompt cards mixed up LOL.
134

Son of Justice,

17/03/2009 12:34:08
#139 - Salmond is no fool. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer still and all that.

#140 - Firstly it is actually far from a major irregularity. There was full scrutiny of the count by all Parties at the time. None suggested any malpractice or queried the result. No Party, including the SNP, was making any noises about the Postal Votes until the Register disappeared, so this is simply opportunistic SNP mischief making after the event. What the loss of the Register does do now is deprive all Parties of the kbnowledge of who actually voted, so they know which voters to target at the next election. Unfortunate, but hardly the end of democracy as we know it.

And secondly, my actual point was not concerned with the severity or otherwise of the loss, but with the fact that it was the SNP themselves who contrived to lose the Register anyway, so to make anti-Labour propaganda out of the loss - as Bully Wee and his ilk persist in doing - is more than a bit naughty.

#142 - If I see any particular political arguments coming from the Gnat zealots on here (as opposed to their standard anti-Union invective and pro-separatist sloganising), I will consider whether they are worth addressing, but I don't see much to debate so far. I do not see any Gnat coming forward with a definitive list of major public projects started under the SNP for example, or a defence of the discredited Scottish Futures Trust which was supposed to pay for our new schools, hospitals, houses and infrastructure projects.

Or maybe one of Wee Eck's clones can list for us the 46 Manifesto pledges on which Salmond claimed to the SP he had actually delivered - as King Smug himself seemed so reluctant to go into any hard detail.
135

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 17/03/2009 12:35:08
155 Vincent-W,17/03/2009 12:27:37


How many people have actually been elected on the basis of a newspaper opinion poll?
136

,

17/03/2009 12:37:40
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137

Darien,

17/03/2009 12:38:13
#138 Observer:

A non-Scot is someone who is not or does not wish to be Scots. Danishbird clearly wishes to retain her Danish nationality. And she also points to the anomaly that non-UK nationals cannot vote in UK general elections but can vote in Scottish Parliament elections. Have you figured out why that is? Most English folks resident in Scotland would not call themselves Scots, yet they do get to vote on Scotland being independent or not at each UK general election. That might also be regarded as an anomaly, as well as a distortion. I expect Danishbird and other EU folks resident in Scotland would be more likely to vote for Scottish independence (if they were permitted to) than English folk resident in Scotland; they have nothing to lose by doing so. The point here is, why allow anyone other than Scots to decide the fate or future of the Scottish nation?
138

Linoleum Blownapart,

17/03/2009 12:40:20
A lot of duff information here regarding ex-pats & taxes.
If you don't know what you're talking about then quit posting.
139

,

17/03/2009 12:40:52
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140

aljok.23,

the world 17/03/2009 12:42:48
#150 Fairfax.

I think you misunderstand. 10% of Scotlands population at present are all English people born in England who have moved/displaced to Scotland.Thats a lot of English based thought on Scotlands place within the "Union". I believe all non-nationals ought to be denied any national vote and most especially the vote in a referendum. As for nationals abroad then I believe they must or should require a renewed registration for voting .
141

Baron Von MunchenBurger,

Watching the Rhein 17/03/2009 12:44:42
I haven't commented since the great Tram Wars and am not going to get into an argument about this BUT..
I have lived abroad for around 18 years, Germany the last 13. I pay German tax (no choice in the matter) and cannot vote for ANYTHING except local mayoral elections. I consider myself to be Scottish and would be extremely pleased to be allowed to vote for/at/in (S0dding prepositions...) Holyrood. I CANNOT pay tax to the UK. Number 6 has it bang to rights. Also, I won't even consider paying UK tax as I am against what the UK Gov does with it. I would work and pay taxes in an independent Scotland for a while before returning to Germany. My Wife is German, so I don't think I'll be retiring back in "Schottland". I follow Scottish politics and it does affect me. As a Consultant I can work where I like and I would genuinely like to return to an independent Scotland, pay tax and contribute to the improvement of all people in Scotland, regardless of their nationality or political affliction.

Hey, Number 6, where are you in Deutscheland? I always enjoy your posts, keep it up!
142

,

17/03/2009 12:48:16
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143

,

17/03/2009 12:49:32
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144

,

17/03/2009 12:49:34
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145

Brian M,

Edinburgh 17/03/2009 12:49:37
Instead of just giving expats a vote we should take the chance to raise a few bob and sell voting licences to them at £100 a year.
146

,

17/03/2009 12:52:09
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147

Miss H,

17/03/2009 12:52:13
155 Vincent - the question was how they would vote if there was a referendum tomorrow. That is not a measure of support for independence. It is a measure of how people would vote if there was a referendum on independence tomorrow.

When asked whether they believed that Scotland will become an independent country 49% of the same people said yes, while 34% said no.

148

,

17/03/2009 12:55:08
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149

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 17/03/2009 12:55:13
159 Son of Justice,17/03/2009 12:34:08

“And secondly, my actual point was not concerned with the severity or otherwise of the loss, but with the fact that it was the SNP themselves who contrived to lose the Register anyway, so to make anti-Labour propaganda out of the loss - as Bully Wee and his ilk persist in doing - is more than a bit naughty”

Please explain how it was that the “SNP themselves” lost the “Regisister”?

These documents were never in the possession of the SNP, and it was only as a result of a request by the SNP to see them that it became apparent that they had “been lost”.

Who was responsible for “losing” the marked register, and who had anything to gain from this loss?
150

Baron Von MunchenBurger,

Watching the Rhein, contemplating a bier 17/03/2009 12:55:41
173 Brian M
I agree with you, Faux Cul said he would (but Euros, please, not Sterling) and I would GLADLY pay that. But not yearly, only per election and referendum. Oh sh!t, I just used the "R" word. Cue the tirade...
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Miss H,

17/03/2009 12:56:52
176 What are you talking about? There are no UK wide figures in this poll, it is all Holyrood.

http://www.yougov.co.uk/extranets/ygarchives/content/pdf/scot%20ST_topline.pdf
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Observer,,

Glasgow 17/03/2009 12:57:47
162 If they are resident here they should be able to vote. You cannot exclude people because of your perception of their belief systems. It isn't practically possible anyway, so your point is moot.
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Miss H,

17/03/2009 12:59:59
180 Yes - but that's all you can say.

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Number 6,

Germany 17/03/2009 13:02:28
169 Good day to you Baron.

I'm in North West Germany, Osnabruck to be exact.

Just imagine if we could take the best of Germany society : Transport Infra structure, Technology, Respect for the Law,
Council Services, Recycling etc etc etc and transplant it into Scotland.

Now there would be a country worth living in.
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Observer,,

Glasgow 17/03/2009 13:02:44
182 You couldn't stop them Vincent so why the provocation ?
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Baron Von MunchenBurger,

Munchen and Dusseldorf 17/03/2009 13:14:21
And good day to you Number 6.
185 - God, yes that would be good. My wife loves Scotland and the Scottish people, but although our Scottish Scenery is fantastic (great documentary on German Telly a few days ago about walking in Scotland) I really get embarrassed and annoyed about the state of towns and cities and, unfortunately, quite a number of the inhabitants. Before I get the "Well bl00dy well stay there, then!" rants, Germany is not perfect either. The specemins wandering around the main station at Dusseldorf and other industrial cities sometimes looks like an out-take from a Post-Apolyptic horror film. Still, I feel safer in Dusseldorf than in Dundee, and I studied there. OK, I admit, long time ago. Anyone remember when it was still the "Bell St Tech"?
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Miss H,

17/03/2009 13:17:58
189 He isn't. The weighting data is at the end. YouGov weighted its raw data by newspaper readership and political party identification as well as age, gender, region and social class.

Political party identification does not mean that the individual necessarily supports that party however, it simply means that they identify with that party the most.



166

Fairfax,

17/03/2009 13:18:44
Aljok.23 (167): "I think you misunderstand. 10% of Scotlands population at present are all English people born in England who have moved/displaced to Scotland."

I don't think I have misunderstood. My point ultimately relates to the extent this 10% of Anglo-Scots (to coin a term) are viewed as Scottish.

"Thats a lot of English based thought on Scotlands place within the "Union". I believe all non-nationals ought to be denied any national vote and most especially the vote in a referendum."

That's an honest answer. If I've understood you correctly, you don't believe English Scottish-residents should be able to vote in Holyrood elections or the independence referendum.
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Miss H,

17/03/2009 13:24:14
There is absolutely no evidence that peoples' place of birth affects how they vote either in an election or would vote in a referendum on independence.

There is no evidence at all that English people are less likely to vote SNP than Scottish people. Indeed the SNP would certainly not have won seats like Moray, the Western Isles or Argyll & Bute without the strong support of English-born voters.

Anybody who tries to introduce some kind of racial/cultural factor into this debate is either a complete fool or is deliberately trying to cause trouble.
168

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 17/03/2009 13:27:09
What a load of rubbish!

They don't live here. Why should they have a say in choosing the morons who run the place?
169

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 17/03/2009 13:27:48
190 Traquir , Alba,17/03/2009 13:11:28

The poll was obviously seasonally adjusted to account for the different weather conditions in Scotland, the number of daylight hours and when the high tide occurred in Leith.

It no doubt took into account Gordon Brown’s undoubted popularity in Dundee Maryfield, where his presence contributed to his party losing a seat, and potentially control of the whole council, to the SNP, for the first time in 35 years.

Yes, Labour is on the up and up in Scotland.

Duncan Somebody in Greenock says so!

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Linoleum Blownapart,

17/03/2009 13:29:25
199

Re no taxation without representation, retired ex pats living in the eu who were ex council employees or ex civil service, and are paid a pension, MUST pay UK taxes.

I've no problem with these people voting.
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AJM,

17/03/2009 13:32:04
#195 Fairfax It might be "honest " of aljok and others to pick on publicaly as they only group that they might want to remove from the right to vote. and not a group they can be accussed of being racist.

SNP Xenophobes will not want to stop there, there will be Northern Irish, and other nationalities including those from Asian subcontinent. In fact any group that can be identified as a no voting majority.
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Baron Von MunchenBurger,

NRW (Work that one out, then) 17/03/2009 13:38:03
#196 & 201

Love you guys' posts, but I'm getting an error message (in German!) saying the blog don't exist no more.

"Leith no moah, Skye no moah, Blog no moah" etc. etc.

AM I being thick, or do you have another link, please?
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AJM,

17/03/2009 13:39:07
#197 Miss H I welcome your contribution to refuting the silly wing. I was going to have a go and say that I seldom hear SNP posters denouncing overt xenophobia.

There are about 13% non Scottish birth residents, I think that this excludes students, on the 2001 census. The SNP have always known this figure and have had to work with regard to their policies and appeal. It does not make this group any likelier to vote no as the group of Scots that have relatives down south.
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redcliffe62,

17/03/2009 13:40:47
can somebody do a proper poll with th eusual standardised questions with the snp correctly represented pro rata as per their current vote strength so that a snapshot can be taken that is real. this one obviously did not encompass too many areas the snp weres trong in, with a majority of the voters nominating themselves as labour leaning or affilaited.
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Astonished,

Inverclyde 17/03/2009 13:41:52
I think it is a good idea for ex-pats be allowed to vote however there will be problems regarding eligibility.

And in light of labour's 'form' on postal votes I would demand honest and independent safeguards (i.e. no labour numpty or anyone connected to the labour party being involved in any way).
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Observer,,

Glasgow 17/03/2009 13:42:01
204 In case you haven't noticed nationalist posters have supported the unqualified right of English born people to vote in the referendum. Don't go down that road.
180

Fairfax,

17/03/2009 13:43:07
AJM (204): "SNP Xenophobes will not want to stop there"

To be fair to the SNP, they have always distanced themselves from ethnic nationalism. However, it is a difficult point which arises even if ethnic nationalism is avoided. After all, why should an English voter, who might have only been resident in Scotland for one year, be entitled to vote in an independence referendum? Perhaps there should be an extra requirement, such as ancestry or length of residence.
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Fairfax,

17/03/2009 13:53:42
Observer (211): "In case you haven't noticed nationalist posters have supported the unqualified right of English born people to vote in the referendum. Don't go down that road."

Difficult questions do not disappear, although they can make us uncomfortable, and they always occur once the very definition of nationality arises. After all, if Scottish birth is to confer franchise in the referendum, other special cases will also arise. Consider the following thought experiment: Let us imagine a child of Scottish parents, who happened to be born in England, but had spent their years from 1 to 18 in Scotland. If this child is attending university in England at the time of the referendum, should he have the vote? Such a hypothetical case might be considered rather special, but I suspect there will be many cases of difficulty.
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Fairfax,

17/03/2009 13:56:32
St Scotland (113): "Many Scottish people dont live in Scotland and that is their right, and regardless of where they live they are still Scottish, thus they should be able to vote. End of story!"

Would they still be Scottish if they have renounced UK citizenship, say? Further, if Scots remain Scottish despite their location, and if their children also view themselves as Scottish, will the children also be able to vote?
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jane shore,

london 17/03/2009 14:02:08

And we English can only look on & envy. Fancy having your very own Parliament. Lovely.

I did see last week, the first ever, a car with an English Democratic poster in the back. From little acorns perhaps?

A happy St Patrick's day to all our Irish cousins.
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Baron Von MunchenBurger,

Not in the Pub (yet) 17/03/2009 14:04:54
Fairfax #211 214

I don't always agree with you, but these are good points and should be debated (without the usual vitriol.) I don't have all the answers, but am glad to see the questions. I think that as I was born in Scotland, I am by definition Scottish. If I was born in England I would be English. If I was born on Mars, but lived in Scotland for a certain length of time, I could, in my opinion, qualify to vote using residency status.
But the question here is about expats. So, howsabout this: Anyone resident in Scotland long enough, irrespective of birthplace, PLUS all those born in Scotland and holding a British passport gets to vote?
In your scenario at 214, I would say the 17 years count, and education should not count, as people study in different countries all over the world. So I would give him the vote.
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Eve,

Scotland 17/03/2009 14:05:54
How would they define a Scottish expat?

I'm really curous because it's not like we're allowed offical documention with Scottish written on it.

So how would they prove that they are a Scottish expact?

It's highly plauseable that not all Scots Expacts where not born in Scotland but maybe grew up in Scotland or had spent most of their life in Scotland. So there for place of brith name won't nessarly be the proff that is needed.
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Observer,,

Glasgow 17/03/2009 14:08:05
214 You are making things far too complicated. You must know that any attempt to compile a voters list upon ethnic lines rather than residency would be illegal as well as borderline fascicm. So I assume you are on the wind up.
191

Fairfax,

17/03/2009 14:10:00
Peter (217): "Fairfax - did you have anything to do with my post at 17 on the Cameron thread being removed?"

No. I never ask for posts to be removed.

"Cameron failed to hold the government to account at every turn, the Tory party vote share in Scotland is collapsing,"

He hasn't been a particularly good Tory leader so far, certainly. On the other hand, it might be a good strategy to let Brown dig his own grave. The Tory vote in Scotland is probably irrelevant to Cameron, in any case -- they expect to lose in Scotland and Wales.

"The FT and other financial papers did question the HBOS's CEO's qualifications to run a bank and the FSA's role in it."

To be fair to Hornby, the vast majority of HBOS debt, incurred during its hubristic expansion becore he became CEO, would still have ruined the bank whatever his actions. Further, I don't regard his Harvard MBA as inferior to formal banking qualifications -- the latter really aren't much use either.

"Why should anyone believe otherwise than David Cameron was complicit in this banking disaster for his own political ends and the preservation of this mendacious Union?"

How is he complicit? Brown has a majority, so Cameron's views would have been irrelevant in any case. More importantly, I can see no alternative to de facto nationalization, since the alternative was probably systemic collapse.
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17/03/2009 14:12:26
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Fairfax,

17/03/2009 14:23:50
Observer (222): "You are making things far too complicated. You must know that any attempt to compile a voters list upon ethnic lines rather than residency would be illegal as well as borderline fascicm."

Several states assign nationality on ancestry, such as Denmark -- not a notably fascistic state. Ancestry, however, is not necessarily ethnicity: the children of Danish Muslim citizens are also Danish.

"So I assume you are on the wind up."

No: I have taken some care to be precise in order to avoid crass criticism. I honestly believe that careful considerations of nationality are needed when an independence referendum is considered.
195

Faux Cul,

17/03/2009 14:26:28
Baron Von Munch

"Bell St Tech"?

It still is the Bell Street Tech!
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17/03/2009 14:27:26
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Fairfax,

17/03/2009 14:28:00
St Scotland (220): "The article clearly states that it would be a vote for ex-pats in an attempt to get them reconnected with their place of BIRTH!"

It certainly does. However, once the very definition of nationality is up for discussion, it seems perfectly permissible to consider other extensions of the topic.
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Baron Von MunchenBurger,

By the Silvery Rhein 17/03/2009 14:30:54
#227 Faux Cul

Methinks 'tis now "University of Abertay". Could have been worse, imagine the Acronym for
"Tayside Institute of Technology" :)

But will always be BST to me!
199

Fairfax,

17/03/2009 14:33:05
Baron (219): "I don't always agree with you, but these are good points and should be debated (without the usual vitriol.) I don't have all the answers, but am glad to see the questions."

Thanks. I don't have all the answers either.

"I think that as I was born in Scotland, I am by definition Scottish. If I was born in England I would be English. If I was born on Mars, but lived in Scotland for a certain length of time, I could, in my opinion, qualify to vote using residency status."

I broadly agree. There should be some qualifying period of residency, in my view.

"But the question here is about expats. So, howsabout this: Anyone resident in Scotland long enough, irrespective of birthplace, PLUS all those born in Scotland and holding a British passport gets to vote?"

I'm not sure I would exclude Scottish-born non-UK citizens. I would probably also extend the vote to adults with a Scottish parent.

"In your scenario at 214, I would say the 17 years count, and education should not count, as people study in different countries all over the world. So I would give him the vote."

I would too.
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Number 6,

Germany 17/03/2009 14:34:28
212 # Traquir, Alba. :Ding Ding Ding... End of round one.

Vincent is now staggering back to his corner in the futile hope his handler can get him back into the fight with one swish of his magic sponge .

Seconds out .... round two Ding Ding Ding.
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Baron Von MunchenBurger,

Watching the barges 17/03/2009 14:49:42
The silvery Rhein,
The silvery Rhein,
It flows between Switzerland and The Netherlands,
A' the time.

Thank you, William Topaz McGonnagall! Hee, hee.

Fairfax #232 "I'm not sure I would exclude Scottish-born non-UK citizens. I would probably also extend the vote to adults with a Scottish parent."

Hmmm, nope. I was nearly born in Bachrain and even if I had stayed there for a year and then raised in Scotland, I would consider myself Scottish. If I had a sprog here in Germany, would said sproggie have a right to vote? Akshully, DE is a bad example, 'cos sproggie would be technically "British". After independence, Sprog could get Scottish Passport, but I wouldn't give him/her/it a right to vote until they had stayed the minimum residency period.
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aljok.23,

the world 17/03/2009 15:02:19
Thank you Fairfax for grasping a nettle which can so easily be interpreted as xenophobia. I only point out the English residents in Scotland as being a majority non-national. The argument would apply to all non-nationals. I do acknowledge that after great discussion a parity between length of residency and true vested interests in the said nation would be reached by our wonderful political leaders and laws/restrictions exacted from these agreements. Personally I've always felt that about our voted for representatives too but that may be for another day.
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Eve,

Scotland 17/03/2009 15:20:35
#214 Fairfax: Students have a choice to where they vote. Between their home address and term address.

Your allowed to be on both electrol roles, as long as you only vote in one.

When I was at uni, there where votes that I made at my home address and there where other times when I choice to vote at my term address.

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bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 17/03/2009 15:26:34
234 Vincent-W,17/03/2009 14:43:47

“Whether your point is valid or not - it fails to address the issue of the clear trends”

I have no doubt that Traquir can answer for himself.

However, in terms of “clear trends” may I point you to the following local government elections held in Scotland since May 2007.

The total votes, percentages and percentage changes for all by-elections since May 2007 is as follows:

Party: Votes - % (% Change)
SNP: 15,215 - 36% (+7%)
Labour: 13,402 - 32% (-4%)
Tory: 5,933 - 14% (0%)
LibDem: 3,014 - 7% (1%)
Other: 4,388 - 10% (-4%)

A 5.5% swing from Labour to SNP

The total votes are from the following by-elections:

Kilsyth (North Lanarkshire) 31st January 2008
Elgin City South (Moray) 14th February 2008
Highland Ward (Perth & Kinross) 21st February 2008
Lerwick South (Shetland) 28th February 2008
Cambuslang East (South Lanarkshire) 6th March 2008
Troup (Aberdeenshire) 1st May 2008
Abbey (Dumfries & Galloway) 1st May 2008
Baillieston (Glasgow) 18th September 2008
Forth (Edinburgh) 6th November 2008
Baillieston (Glasgow) 6th November 2008
Ballochmyle (East Ayrshire) 11th December 2008
Kilbirnie & Beith (North Ayrshire) 11th December 2008

There is somewhat of a “clear trend” there, would you not think?
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Eve,

Scotland 17/03/2009 15:27:34
#227 Faux Cul: You've obviously not been to Bell Street in Dundee any time in the past 15years.

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David MacVicar,

17/03/2009 15:34:12
UK state has reserved power over all aspects of National elections, who can vote, conditions etc and what is allowed or not in the Scotland act telling us what the Scottish parliament is allowed or not to control.

The UK state put into law that it is right, proper and democratic to allow UK citizens abroad to vote in UK general elections.

The same UK state has also decided that it is right and proper and democratic to refuse National citizens in devolved countries the same right in National * ordinary General elections.

*Note Scottish election is a General election in Scotland as described in the act.
============================
Democracy UK style. The presumption, by the UK state, that the rights of a UK national in National elections are OFFICIALLY and LEGALLY different depending on whether it is a National UK stae election or a National Country election is a potential breach of Protocol 1, Article 3: Right to free elections.

Which cannot however be enforced in terms of electability.

"The High Contracting Parties undertake to hold free elections at reasonable intervals by secret ballot, under conditions which will ensure the free expression of the opinion of the people in the choice of the legislature.."

While the UK state dictates whom are eligable there is clear disparity for the same person in 2 different national elections. Scotland is considered as a country not a region. (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/geography/uk_countries.asp)

An interesting case (not same, but similar circumstances) was brought against the UK government, which the claimant won:

MATTHEWS v. THE UNITED KINGDOM
http://www.echr.coe.int/Eng/Press/1999/Feb/matthews.eng rev.html

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/geography/uk_countries.asp
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Fairfax,

17/03/2009 15:44:25
Eve (242): "Fairfax: Students have a choice to where they vote. Between their home address and term address.

Your allowed to be on both electrol roles, as long as you only vote in one."

That's certainly the general rule. However, once we consider extending the definition of nationality, these rules need not apply. An independence referendum is, by its very nature, a deeper consideration of the nation's wishes than, say, even a general election. In my example above, I specifically posited a student born in England to Scottish parents, but bred in Scotland, who is attending university in England. Such a voter might lose the franchise at the referendum, depending on its precise legal construction, and this seems to me to be wrong.
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Number 6,

Germany 17/03/2009 15:44:56
191# Baron VonMunchenBurger:

Still, I feel safer in Dusseldorf than in Dundee, and I studied there. OK, I admit, long time ago. Anyone remember when it was still the "Bell St Tech"?

Could not agree with you more, and one of the main differences in lifestyles.

Recently I had to remonstrate with a gang of Turkish youth in a German bus. 5 of them got on and when the smallest spotted a lone German kid, he decided to start a fight.

You could see what was going to happen a mile off.As soon as the poison dwarf went forehead to forehead with the German, I hit him with my best parade ground "Oi". This of course stopped him in his tracks
and I proceded to give him a right telling off for being such a coward.

His mates were laughing at him for being ridiculed in public and he quickly scuttled back to his seat offering apologies as whe went.

They noticed my accent and on discovering I was a Scot, the conversation turned to football. By the time the journey was over, we were the best of freinds and the German was offered an apology.

Had that been Scotland I would have been lucky to get off the bus alive. Over here I love the fact you can walk the streets at night without worrying who is around the corner. Nor do you consider crossing the road when approached by a bunch of youths.

It really does make a hell of a difference does it not ?.

Sorry, i'm off now for a few hrs. Bye for now.
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Fairfax,

17/03/2009 15:56:59
The Spook (249): "Without going into all the made up grievance on something that has not even happened, it would be far simple if anyone who has lived in Scotland for over six months has the right to vote, irrespective where they were born."

It certainly would be simpler, but would it be just? Some 500,000 Scots live in England (exact numbers being unknown). On your view, they would presumably be excluded, whilst a transient would qualify. For that reason, I would allow both ancestry and residence to qualify, with the precise requirement to itself be decided by, say, a free vote in the Scottish Parliament.
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bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 17/03/2009 16:13:02
249 The Spook in Leith,17/03/2009 15:50:40

“...if anyone who has lived in Scotland for over six months has the right to vote, irrespective where they were born.”

I would disagree with that proposition and would suggest an alternative view.

The right to vote in Scotland should only be open to those who are citizens of Scotland.

Citizenship should be open to all those born here, or born to a parent who was, or who otherwise qualifies.

Residential qualifications for citizenship should be open to all who chose to come here from wherever, and have shown themselves to be of good character, and having lived here for a minimum of 5 years.
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Jacqueline Hyde ,

On the shelf 17/03/2009 16:18:41
This crazy "think tank", the journalist and over 250 posters have missed one glaringly obvious point: many genuine ex-pat Scots can and do vote in our elections - as long as they can justify a postal vote. If they can't, then they have already divorced themselves from Scotland and are hardly likely to give a hoot about what happens here.
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Eve,

Scotland 17/03/2009 16:19:12
#247 Fairfax: What have the hyporphtical parents moved to back to England or left Scotland?

Cause I'm not seeing thoes words in your comment.

So I took it that the parents would still be living in Scotland and that would be the students home address.

You'd possible have a point if they had Scottish parents, who was born in Scotland, But move to England when they where a child and then went to a uni in England.

The poster who said that you over complicate things was right.

Though I do belive if they were to do something like this that they would create spefic guideline and strick rules so the voteing system isn't abused.
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Peter20,

Edinburgh 17/03/2009 16:26:31
I've never heard such rubbish - if you don't contribute in any way to a country and decide to live elswhere you shouldn't get a say in how that country is run. End of! Next!
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Fairfax,

17/03/2009 16:30:31
The Spook (252): "if you have been out of Scotland for over 6 months then you lose your right to vote in Scotland, simple and Fair."

That seems unjust to me, but I agree it's simple

"BTW their are almost 900,000 Scots born in England or 3% of the population."

I have yet to see estimates as high as 900,000, although census statistics are generally low in accuracy in the UK. With an official English population of some 52 million in 2007, your 900,000 is some 1.7%. Still, it's not a major discrepancy.
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Fairfax,

17/03/2009 16:37:00
Eve (257): "The poster who said that you over complicate things was right."

Law is, by its very nature, complicated. It's far better to consider these fiddly special cases now than to act unjustly later.

However, my summary view was much the same as Bully Wee Alba and is fairly simple: I believe the independence referendum qualification should be based on ancestry and length of residence, the precise terms to be decided by the Scottish Parliament.
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Baron Von MunchenBurger,

Banks of the Rhein 17/03/2009 16:37:06
Jaqueline 256 & Peter 261

May I direct you to my comment at 169? Ex-Pats contribute in many ways by acting as unofficial ambassadors and promoting their country. I've convinced many people over the years to visit Scotland.

The world would be a rather sad place if no-one ever ventured across their borders.

And I repeat, in an independent Scotland I would gladly return to work for a while, pay tax and contribute to all who live there.
225

European Scot,

17/03/2009 16:43:11
254 bully wee alba

" The right to vote in Scotland should only be open to those who are citizens of Scotland."

Although living in Europe, I would love the opportunity to vote in a Scottish referendum, for example, and help put an end to this god awful Union, but although it will prevent me from doing so, I totally agree with the above simple, and straightforward suggestion.
The right to vote should only be a matter for the citizens of Scotland to decide.
As suggested, a time qualification should also apply, and the proposed idea of living in Scotland for a minimum five years prior to voting, seems reasonable.
If it prevents the manipulators in Westminster, and Whitehall, from any kind of Gerrymandering tactics, or investing lots of money buying even more stamps for postal votes, then that's fine by me.
Anything that thwarts the Brit State from loading the dice even more, is worth giving up the chance of personally voting in a Referendum.
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Eve,

Scotland 17/03/2009 16:44:12
#259 DemocraticScot: Whats wrong way you?

Are you no feeling very Democratic the day?

What on earth is a Vichy Scot?
227

Observer,,

Glasgow 17/03/2009 16:46:06
263 To the best of my knowledge no Party has suggested that. The referendum will be decided by who is eligible to vote. The only issue seems to be where there is a variance between people's eligibility to vote at Holyrood elections, and Westminster ones, as this think tank suggest I think the net should be cast as wide as possible.

However I don't think you will find any mainstream party who will count ''ancestry'' as a reasonable condition of registering to vote in the referendum.
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Faux Cul,

17/03/2009 16:46:18
244
Eve,
Scotland 17/03/2009 15:27:34

Yes I have and I rest my case.

The entrance looks like a tarted up Odean Cinema

229

Baron Von MunchenBurger,

Abroad 17/03/2009 16:49:37
265 European Scot

And, well, everybody else really. OK, maybe we Ex-Pats don't get to vote in Elections (Good point raised by "Sunshine over Leith" at 258. BUT, at least let me vote in the referendum (Cue the "it wulnae happen" brigade.)
As to your point about Gerrymandering, I think the Referendum should be overseen by international observers.
230

Baron Von MunchenBurger,

Lang wae frae Bell St 17/03/2009 16:51:59
269 Faux
But it's no longer the "Dundee College of Technology" is it? Seems College wasn't good enough, even though back in the eighties it had one of the best reps in Britain regarding IT courses.
231

Los Angeles,

17/03/2009 16:53:26

"LA - do you think English people resident in Scotland should get to vote in an Independance (sic) referendum?" (Vincent)

Personally speaking, I think it inappropriate unless you are a house owner or married to a Scot.

I say that because if a temporarily resident, non-Scottish national, you will have no responsibility to shoulder all the changes that will flow from a new Scotland under independence.

If the vote is yes, and you wish to remain in Scotland and vote thereafter, you should be able to apply for Scottish citizenship, or keep dual nationality, as is the case in most countries, if you wish to vote in all subsequent elections or referendum.

My question to you: Do you think Scottish MPs should vote on purely English matters at Westminster?

David Cameron thinks not. He will institute an English Grand Committee to see to it that exactly that happens, Scottish MPs are excluded from such business of the House, thus standing on its head the main tenent of the Act of Union ...

When that comes about the Union is effectively, legally, null and void.

Independence is on the way ... I hope you will see it as a fine progressive move for an industrious, proud nation, with a great history.



#
232

Faux Cul,

17/03/2009 16:53:34
I went to the RCST
233

Eve,

Scotland 17/03/2009 16:58:47
#263 Fairfax: You mean some sort of points system.

Like they have for people immigrating to the likes of Australia and New Zealand.

Ok hyprophicaly your in charge of decideding who gets to vote in a Scottish independence referedum by useing a points system. useing ancestry and length of residence details.

So how many points would someone need to have to quailfy to vote.

How many points would allact to do with ancestry and would you get more points for the ancesters who where form Scotland?

AND how many point would you give to someone for length of residence in Scotland, would the number of points go up by every year or 5years?

Are you sure there shouldn't be some other factors in this one.

Maybe like; Do they plan to return to live in Scotland in the future?

And do they still actauly have an intersted in what happen politcaly in Scotland?

Etc....
234

Jimmy Le Pie,

17/03/2009 17:02:47
Is David Marshall, ex Glasgow East New Labour Sleaze MP, allowed to vote after his alleged fraudulent activities??

Why is Lord Watson, New Labour Sleaze Lord, ex New Labour Sleaze MP, and convicted arsonist, allowed to sit in the House of Lords and retain his right to vote??
235

Observer,,

Glasgow 17/03/2009 17:03:09
275 someone moving from England to Scotland is not an immigrant. That is why removal from the eelctoral roll would be, in my view, unlawful as well as wrong.
236

Baron Von MunchenBurger,

Geting fed up of having to type in the location ev 17/03/2009 17:03:11
274 Faux,
I went to Foreigners' Pub. Strangely appropriate.

Fits the RCST - Rainbow College of Scottish Technology?

Sorry, no offence to the noble institution, just not heard of it. And you know I love Acronyms!
237

Fairfax,

17/03/2009 17:03:43
Observer (267): "To the best of my knowledge no Party has suggested that."

It is possible to think independently of political parties. After all, Scotland has finally stopped voting Labour on reflex.

"The referendum will be decided by who is eligible to vote. The only issue seems to be where there is a variance between people's eligibility to vote at Holyrood elections, and Westminster ones, as this think tank suggest I think the net should be cast as wide as possible."

A referendum on independence is much more fundamental than a general election, hence my suggestion that the very definition of nationality be considered.

H2owever I don't think you will find any mainstream party who will count ''ancestry'' as a reasonable condition of registering to vote in the referendum."

We already accord some ancestry rights in UK law. For example, we have always provided so-called ancestry visas for Australians, New Zealanders and South Africans. Therefore, given this precedent, I see no obvious objection to referendum rights based on ancestry.
238

Linoleum Blownapart,

17/03/2009 17:05:23
Right then. I'm now all over the place with this. Let's say that an ex-pat Scot (whatever that is) works in England and pays his taxes in the UK. Another ex-pat Scot lives in France on a UK pension and is an ex council employee. That ex-pat pays taxes in the UK as well. Who if any should be allowed to vote?

If it goes by domicile then NEITHER should get a vote. If it goes by paying UK tax, then BOTH should be treated equally n'est-ce pas?
239

Eve,

Scotland 17/03/2009 17:06:19
Sorry Fairfax on comment #275 I ment:

How many points would you allocate to do with ancestry and would you get more points for each ancester you have that comes from Scotland or has Scottish ancestery?

And Not what I orginaly posted which it didn't make sence.


"How many points would allact to do with ancestry and would you get more points for the ancesters who where form Scotland?"
240

Observer,,

Glasgow 17/03/2009 17:07:03
279 the point I am making Fairfax is that you and a few others are posting about an imaginary referendum where an imaginary electoral roll will be compiled apparently based on whether you are Scottish enough. Ain't gonna happen.
241

Fairfax,

17/03/2009 17:09:02
Eve (275): "You mean some sort of points system."

That's certainly one good possibility. I would assign the precise details to the Scottish Parliament.

242

Fairfax,

17/03/2009 17:11:05
Observer (282): "the point I am making Fairfax is that you and a few others are posting about an imaginary referendum where an imaginary electoral roll will be compiled"

That's correct: it's purely hypothetical. If you consider hypothetical discussion otiose, then it's probably teatime.
243

Observer,,

Glasgow 17/03/2009 17:14:00
280 when I worked in England I kept my vote here as it was my main and principle residence. English based Scots could do likewise. The French based Scot would, I think, have a right to vote at a Westminster election but not a Holyrood one. Clearly I think he should be able to vote in the referendum, which is what this think tank seem to be saying.

I think the bottom line is this - if you have taken action to ensure that you are eligible to vote in any Scottish election, Westminster or Holyrood, then you should get a referendum vote. If you haven't maintained a live political link to Scotland then why should you get a vote now.
244

Linoleum Blownapart,

17/03/2009 17:15:42
A thread happily devoid of much calumny. Only one comment removed.
245

Baron Von MunchenBurger,

Not Scotland, so does my opinion count? 17/03/2009 17:15:49
What's wrong with saying everyone who was born in Scotland and everyone who has lived there for 5 years?

As we Expats probably use our Passports more than most, we have a definite interest on what it says inside regarding Nationality.

Anybody who has lived 5 years in Scotland probably wants to stay and so they they should also be enfranchised.

Where your Ma, Da, Granny, best friends' dug was born doesn't come into it, in my view anyway.
246

Observer,,

Glasgow 17/03/2009 17:16:35
284 Well as long as you appreciate it's imaginary Fairfax. Making up a completely new voting register based on previously unheard of eligibility criteria in a UK context would probably nullify any result.
247

Linoleum Blownapart,

17/03/2009 17:19:20
285

Agreed. I've kept a residency status in the UK. This entitles me to a vote. Regarding a referendum there hasn't as yet been a definitive answer from Holyrood. No decision has yet been reached IF there were to be a referendum.

(If a decision HAS been reached, the so-and-sos haven't got back to me yet.)
248

Baron Von MunchenBurger,

Location, location, location! 17/03/2009 17:23:10
285 Observer.

Careful, bit of a generalisation there. On the run up to the 2007 election I joined the SNP and sent a donation. I am no longer able to be a member or contribute 'cos foreign funding's against the rules. So, how the hell do I maintain a live political link anyway? Does reading these blogs everyday count? I promote Scotland at every opportunity over here, does that not count? I am SCOTTISH! Does that not count? Sorry for the shout there, but I get narked when people think that if you leave a country you no longer care about it.
The only way I could get political representation would be to buy a second house in Scotland. 1, I can't afford that and 2, that would make me an absentee landlord and god knows how many complaints I would get over that about not being patriotic.
249

Linoleum Blownapart,

17/03/2009 17:24:47
"The only way I could get political representation would be to buy a second house in Scotland."

Or give yer granny's address. Apparently Glenrothes was FULL of people living with gran. I suspect they were labour postal voters,
250

European Scot,

17/03/2009 17:27:51
270 Baron Von MunchenBurger

The problem is if you let Ex-pats in to vote in a Referendum, then that will give the Brit Nat State the excuse they are looking for to trawl around the World for their 'Unionist' postal voters, many of whom probably died of old age during Victoria's reign.
As long as the registers are taken care of, and their disappearance is put down to sloppy local security, you, and I getting the right to participate, will be just the cover they need to set this one up.
Agreed on the Referendum, it will definitely need an International presence, no question.
251

Observer,,

Glasgow 17/03/2009 17:28:11
290 Get creative.

Look we have to draw a line somewhere, unfortunately.
252

,

17/03/2009 17:29:03
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253

Linoleum Blownapart,

17/03/2009 17:31:28
Alan

I take it the space at the bottom of your post was the list of legal postal voters in Glenrothes?
254

,

17/03/2009 17:47:02
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255

Masterpiece,

17/03/2009 17:49:13
I find a lot of people from England who live in Scotland support the SNP within a few years of moving here. It is usually the Scots who have never been outside Scotland, other than for a holiday that are far more British in outlook and unaware of what life without a London government could be like.
256

,

17/03/2009 17:56:55
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257

Eve,

Scotland 17/03/2009 18:03:15
#269 Faux Cul:
"Yes I have and I rest my case."

What case?

"The entrance looks like a tarted up Odean Cinema"

You confuse a universty with with a cinema?
258

qohldr,

17/03/2009 18:04:09
British soldiers who are Scots, married, living in MSQs
(married soldiers quarters)at their duty station which is (for the purpose of this post) Warminster.
That soldier is entitle to vote to elect a councilor to represent them at council level, a MP to represent them at UK government level and a MEP to represent them at EU level.
They are not entitled to vote in Scotland at any level due to no councilor from a Scottish council will represent them they live in an English council, no MP from a Scottish constituency will represent them they live in an English constituency and no MEP from Scotland will represent them they live in England.
They will not be represented by a MSP in the Scottish parliament as they Live in England so why should they have a vote on who becomes a MSP.
They don't and it should remain that way, no one should have a say on who will serve at any level of government when that person does not represent them or the area where they live.
259

Number 6,

Germany 17/03/2009 18:52:40
250# The Spook in Leith,

How many race riots have we seen in Germany compared to Scotland ?

To my knowledge, Germany has had no race riot. I think you mean Nazi Demonstrations against immigrants. Yes, like most countries these take place, and just as in other countries they are massivley outnumbered by Anti Nazi demonstrators.

As much as it pains me to say it, a Saturday night out in Germany is ten times safer than in any British city. There remains here a semblence of respect among the young for their elders, something now sadly missing from most areas of British society.Couple that with much less drunkeness and you can see where I am coming from.

Would you consider intervening on a Scottish bus if you found yourself in the same scenario as I found myself?. If so, your a braver man than I.

Germany is no haven of peace and serenity, but on the other hand, we have nothing like the levels of street violence we see in Scotland. Much of it is also down to the Police over here, where there is a very heavy public presence.

An argument with a German Policeman lasts no more than 2 minutes, and if your still arguing, then you will be arrested.

Finally, when you consider this is a land of over 80 million people, the level of Social Stability is remarkable.
260

Los Angeles,

17/03/2009 19:20:24

"We have nothing like the levels of street violence we see in Scotland." (Germany)

Are you practising for the Booker Prize for Fiction?

Where in Scotland? What violence?

Achiltibuie? Isle of Arran? The ski slopes of winter resorts? Rannoch Moor between an eagle and a rabbit? Morningside, Edinburgh? Pilton, perhaps? Sauchiehall Street, Glasgow
on a Friday night precisely between the hours of 10 pm to 1 am?
261

Observer,,

Glasgow 17/03/2009 19:25:05
No 6 I wonder where you get your information from ? I travel by bus all the time, and I haven't been killed yet.
262

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 17/03/2009 19:47:49
The Pictish Confederation was the best government we had. Now is time of greater peril than when we faced off the Roman settlers, Vikings (capitalists) and the biggest mercerary army in Europe.

It was a government based on knowledge and technology.

The SNP's best move was to assemble a panel of enginneers (experts) for their marine energy prize. Their economic board has all the deficiences of orthodoxy.

It's all to play for. Onwards the Republic !
263

AJM,

17/03/2009 19:52:58
#296 Democratic Scot how do you expect anyone to take you seriously after " i do not trust westminster when it comes to elections ,they give Mugabe a bad name" well Mugabe already has a bad name, so we presume you meant good. Either way it confirms you delusional tendencies and please stay with the SNP you will be a credit to them and help in securing votes.
264

,

17/03/2009 19:53:14
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265

AJM,

17/03/2009 19:56:25
#304 Yok, another one, so you wish to replace our democratic ways with some romantic historical group of elders or engineering experts.

You have found a home in the SNP as you feel they reflect your values....
266

AJM,

17/03/2009 20:00:35
#306 St Scotland good point, do you really think that it needs resolving now? Or can he return home and sort it out?

267

Observer,,

Glasgow 17/03/2009 20:20:25
306 If he can't be bothered coming back ''home'' then why should he get a vote ?
268

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 17/03/2009 20:29:50
I wouldn't have a boat built by anyfolk less than experts. Your democratic ways are only a cover for Tyranny. By international bankers. They'll run the UK into the ground.

Where is the substrate, our pictish heritage and our future.

Otherwise we're just barbarians with technology.
269

AJM,

17/03/2009 20:42:10
#310 I do agree that things are not going very well in this democracy and others. However I must note that the institutions that got in this mess were undemocratric, ie the banks.

When searching for an alternative I must admit that The Pictish Confederation did not spring readily to mind. How long have you studied communism before ruling that out? Lectures and conferences are drawing very good crowds at the moment. China is doing well and it is I believe still a communist state.

Just that the Pictish Confederation seems a bit rusty for the modern society.
270

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/03/2009 21:02:07
Aye, 300, Queens Own Highlander, you might just have answered a few of the earlier posts.

Warminster. Used to go to Larkhall on courses. RA and all that.

However, when I served in Germany I was entitled to vote. But for who, where and what for? When I was in the army we were all kind of apolitical (the training, you know) but a single soldier had the same rights as a married pad.

It does open up the question though as to exactly what the ex-pat voting rules, as they stand with regard to the UK context, are.

Is is a case of, I was last domiciled in Thistown and therefore I can vote from my ex-pat location on Thistown elections? Or what?

Technically, British people who still live in the UK are not ex-pats therefore Scots living in any part of it would not be allowed an ex-pat vote.

Still can't see why the ex-pat vote cannot be extended beyond Westminster and Euro elections to the devolved ones apart from Westminster knowing in advance (by keeking into the details of the votes) the voting patterns of ex-pat voters.

Can only be that they don't like the voting patterns.
271

ExpatBackinScotland,

Carnoustie 17/03/2009 21:06:50
I tried to vote while living in Mexico City. The SNP werent on the embassy ballot."They are a local party" I was told.

The constituency you vote in overseas is the Foreign and Commonwealth Office Constituency, London.

SO much for democracy
272

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/03/2009 21:07:51
OMG. Larkhill re 312.
273

Observer,,

Glasgow 17/03/2009 21:11:54
312 The thing to watch out for is that the Institute for Public Policy Research is pretty Laboured up, so why are they advocating this ? On the other hand it seems fair that ex pats who get a vote in the Westminster election get one for the referendum too.
274

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/03/2009 21:12:33
313,ExpatBackinScotland, this is worth looking into.

Wonder how the Foreign and Commonwealth Office Constituency, London distributes the votes on the first past the post system?
275

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 17/03/2009 21:23:01
The Spartans were rather an extreme regime, but at least they recognised that when a nation gives up its duty to issue and regulate its own currency, it's finished.

And women had more rights and privileges - not to say fun and frolics - than anyone else at the time.

Yet their extrermity was their downfall too, and banksters regained control.

The Picts were beyond an iron age society like the Romans and will prevail !
276

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/03/2009 21:32:01
315, Observer,, it is all rather strange. Perhaps there is an EU edict somewhere behind it all.

Worth looking into though. We'll never get the truth on this website.
277

livilion,

livingston 17/03/2009 21:41:55
The Tories under the Milk Snatcher were all for extending voting rights to ex-pats on the Costas on the premise that they would be most likely to be 'their kind'.

So why are these ideas coming to notice now, could it be that our 'betters' in Westminster are concerned that the natives hereabouts cannot be counted upon to vote 'the right way'?
278

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/03/2009 21:42:50
317, Yok Finney. The Picts were Celtic. They came to us as the first wave. The Celts were the second wave. Seperated only by millenia.

The Picts were noticable by their blue eyes and dark hair.

They were shoved into Aberdeenshire, and one or 2 nights in 1975 at my rented cottage in Old Rayne did I have carnal knowledge of one.

I took my Pict and it was good.
279

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 17/03/2009 22:08:09
Expats and cowpats are much the same thing really all said and done.

As far as Homecoming - its time they switched the attention to the EU communities and tried to attract them across the sea for a "cultural exchange experience" especially now the euro is so strong.

So much is being spent on the US attachment that they are missing the target where the money is right now. But the yanks speak pigeon english and thats all that matters, especially in Salmonds eyes it seems.

A missed opportunity for sure!
280

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/03/2009 23:01:19
Och yes, 322, Liberal for life. Live by yourself with equating ex-pats with cowpats.

Many people who live here equate Liberals with cowpats - but not the fresh ones.
281

European Scot,

17/03/2009 23:16:02
322 Liberal for life ( a reminder that there's always someone worse off )

" Expats and cowpats are much the same thing really all said and done."

Expats and cowpats the same ? Just can't quite put my finger on that one !

Travel much ?

Alex Salmond, quite sensibly was bringing the Homecoming to the attention of those millions of Americans who, unlike some Unionists, are actually proud of their Scottish roots.
The chances of attracting visitors from such a large group to a Scottish Homecoming would be rather better than in Europe, where the Ex-pats are more scattered than cowpats in a field full of ' loose' cows.
The pound fell against the dollar, as well as the Euro, so the financial advantages of coming to Scotland will also apply to the Americans.
Europeans are just as likely to be attracted to a major event in another country on their doorstep, but will tend to think of it as a visit to the UK, England, or North Britain.
However those Americans that choose to participate will consider it more as returning to an ancestral homeland, and will be well aware of its name.

Alex did a great job of promoting Scotland for sure !
282

Florence,

Edinburgh 17/03/2009 23:26:32
68 THE AYRSHIRE BARD: I find your comments both ridiculous and offensive. Can you give details of the racism to which you refer?
283

Los Angeles,

17/03/2009 23:38:29

"Yanks speak pigeon english (sic)"
"A missed opportunity for sure!"
(Lib for Life)

"For sure" is a fashionable American colloquialism." You are not immune to the lazy speech of American streets. And your attempt to rise above it as a rapper is a miserable failure if this is all you can come up with:

"Expats and cowpats are much the same thing."

284

Florence,

Edinburgh 17/03/2009 23:48:31
129 SCYTHIA: If the response from the SNP spokesman had been the opposite of "cool", no doubt you would have accused them of jumping on a bandwagon with which to gain more votes.
285

Los Angeles,

17/03/2009 23:54:11

"If you don't contribute in any way to a country and decide to live elswhere you shouldn't get a say in how that country is run. End of!" (Peter)

How does your authoritarian view relate to Nelson Mandela cruelly jailed in his Robben Island prison for almost three decades?

286

Florence,

Edinburgh 17/03/2009 23:55:51
137 SON OF JUSTICE: Re Glenrothes - "Sound gubbing" - Labour's majority was almost halved and the SNP greatly increased it percentage of the vote. And there was something very fishy regarding the number of postal votes but, then, Labour have some form when it comes to dubious postal voting. Birmingham, I think it was - very nasty.
287

Andrew D,

Brisbane 18/03/2009 01:36:53
I'd *love* to be able to vote in Scottish Parliament elections but no way I'd support it. It's daft to say that ex-pats should be able to vote just because they ARE ex-pats.

If you are resident or normally resident (i.e. >6months a year) in the country and are a citizen/subject that's all that matters. I've not taken citizenship in Australia because I'm not Australian and have no desire to be, so that means I can't vote here; BUT even with that, I still don't believe I should be given a vote in Scotland.

And those being disparaging of ex-pats just need to grow up. People leave for many reasons; and I bet none but a handful would be to do with something is ridiculous as being able to "hack it" (oh please)
288

livilion,

livingston 18/03/2009 02:24:03
I'm all for anyone living and contributing to their community being able to exercise their franchise to vote here, but I seriously doubt that anyone living outwith Scotland is going to be aquainted enough with Scottish issues and personalities sufficient to make an informed judgement, other than the colour of rosette, on who to vote for.

Face it, even the previous First Minister, Labour's Jack McDonnell had difficulty being recognised by his own party colleagues in Westminster, and given how policies at Holyrood tend to change on the hoof what chance does anyone else have?

I suspect ex-pats would still be voting on issues from positions when they left Scotland, like when the Labour party used to be nominally socialist and pro-CND for example.
289

Brian Hill,

18/03/2009 02:28:02
Problem with expats voting is that we can't keep tabs on votes from Scotland (Glenrothes)never mind coming in from abroad.

As we don't know how many expats there are I can see constituency results like SNP 92,567 Labour 42million, 987thousand, 123votes.

....Nightmare.....though it would be fun to see Rufus foaming at the mouth as he writhes about in ecstasy.

290

Brian Hill,

18/03/2009 02:30:50
It would be OK only if there were a fool proof means of collating and counting the votes....not to mention safeguarding the official post election papers for sample double checking.
291

,

18/03/2009 09:00:13
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292

,

18/03/2009 09:14:00
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james 1st,

hamilton nz 18/03/2009 09:39:20
as an ex pat i think this is as dumb anidea as anyone could come up with. if you are not living in a country or at least realisticly looking at returning to do so why should you have a say in its governance.
didnt the yanks hav a saying no taxation without representation, well in this case i would say no representation without taxation
294

DanishBird,

18/03/2009 09:39:30
330# Andrew - I totally agree with you. I am a Danish national resident in Scotland and have absolutely no desire to vote in Danish elections. I have resided in Scotland for nearly 25 years and have the right to vote in the Scottish parliamentary elections. I feel I should be entitled to cast my vote on independence as I would be directly affected by this. In addition, I live within the law, I work and pay my taxes, and I have raised my sons to be good Scots. Should I be excluded from having a say on such a deep and fundanmental issue as independence simply because I am Danish not Scottish by birth? I have explained my reasons for not obtaining British citizenship in my previous post@41. I am just waiting for the Danish state to put her own citizens in line with more than 90% of Europeans and allow us to hold dual nationality.

And would I vote for independence? ;-)
295

DanishBird,

Fife 18/03/2009 10:02:10
147# No I'm not in Cupar. Why?

My previous post is #141 - not 41 - if anyone is interested in reading it.
296

livilion,

livingston 18/03/2009 11:12:49
This ex-pat vote string has got me wondering: whatever happened over the investigation into the May 3rd 2007 shambles by wee Dougie Alexander set up to look into the missing postal votes scandal?

Lots of heat but not much light on returning officers and ballot paper design but I don't recall much about the postal vote fiasco where voters either didn't recieve their ballot paper or had them vanish en route to the count.

I do recall some fuss about some Labour councillors south of the border getting huckled for vote rigging but no more.
Anyone any wiser?
297

Number 6,

Germany 18/03/2009 12:15:06
336 James1.
Would you allow the can't work/won't work can't find work groups a vote.

No representation without taxation ? Where does that leave them?.
298

Number 6,

Germany 18/03/2009 12:18:18
337 Danishbird,
You seem to have asked yourself a question at the end of your post.

Why don't you answer it.
299

DanishBird,

Fife 18/03/2009 12:47:24
#341 At this point in time I really can't think of any overwhelming reason - economical, political, historical and emotional - for why Scotland could and should not be a succesful, independent country. So I would vote in favour of full autonomy, yes.
300

JoeMiddleton,

Edinburgh 18/03/2009 13:55:46
Those who live in a country should vote in its elections, no-one else. If you live in Scotland you will get a vote in an independence referendum.

Those ex-pats who want to get involved can do se however by encouraging their fellows in Scotland to realise that independence is normality.

No other country around the world would ever want to give up their independence or accept the 'great deal' that Britain offers Scotland.

Here it is:

We'll take all your money, give you back some of it and claim you are a scrounger while putting the excess in our back pockets.

We will deny you access to the UN or the Olympics and stop you from having any consular representation.

We'll force you to buy nuclear weapons which make you a target and we'll move control of your banks to London.

Gee thanks!

 

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