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Council tax freeze across Scotland counts as success for government

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Published Date: 15 February 2008
COUNCIL tax rates were yesterday frozen in most of Scotland's local authority areas in a move which will be seen as a major success story for Alex Salmond.
More than half the country's authorities unveiled their budgets for the coming year yesterday and said their concordat with the Scottish Government enabled them to avoid tax hikes while maintaining front-line services.

The government had offered £70 million of funding to councils willing to freeze council tax as part of its plans to ultimately abolish the levy.

West Dunbartonshire took the unprecedented step of pledging a three-year halt. Seven other councils have already agreed a freeze and among the others to join them yesterday were Moray, South Ayrshire, Borders and East Renfrewshire.

All said they would be able to achieve it by efficiencies away from the front line, such as closer working between departments and natural wastage.

Moray Council has introduced more energy-efficient street lighting and reduced postage costs by finding alternative ways to issue payslips.

East Renfrewshire Council has got departments working more closely together to make better use of resources.

But unions warned teacher cuts would be inevitable to balance the books – and as education made up half the budget, it would be the first to be hit.

School boards in Aberdeen had already revealed that an accumulation of swingeing cuts over recent years had forced head teachers to consider drastic savings. And last night, the city council confirmed it would have to cut services by £27,000. The city has the highest tax rate – £1,230 for band D – and the Lib Dem/SNP administration vowed to fight for more cash from the Scottish Government.

East Lothian Council announced efficiency savings earlier this week, and the head of Musselburgh Grammar School told parents in advance this would cause problems.

Bill McGregor, general secretary of the Head Teachers Association Scotland, said there were still fears the pressure would be passed on to teachers. He said: "School funding has been cut to the bone. All that's left now is to cut teaching posts."

But Highland Council – which agreed a budget increase of 4.7 per cent but needs efficiency savings of £7.9 million – pulled back from anticipated cuts in teaching posts and to a care charity.

It scrapped plans which would have seen an increase in the number of pupils per teacher in small rural primary schools which, it was claimed, could have seen a loss of up to 40-50 teachers.

Instead, it will carry out a review of staffing levels across the council in time for the 2009-10 budget.

It also gave a stay of execution to the Highland Community Care Forum (HCCF) by deferring a decision to reduce core funding of £150,000.

Other councils who set their budgets yesterday were Aberdeenshire, Argyll & Bute, Dundee City, East Ayrshire, East Dunbartonshire, East Renfrewshire, Fife, Inverclyde, North Lanarkshire, Orkney, Perth & Kinross, Renfrewshire, South Ayrshire, South Lanarkshire and West Dunbartonshire.

John Swinney, the finance secretary, said the mass freeze was "welcome news for taxpayers across Scotland who have borne unacceptable and punishing rises in the council tax over recent years".

He added: "We have given local government the opportunity to deliver the services their constituents deserve by providing record funding and giving councils more freedom to spend their money to meet local needs and deliver national priorities."

DEAL WITH LOCAL AUTHORITIES A COUP FOR SNP
THE historic concordat between local authorities and the Scottish Government was agreed last year, in a major coup for the Nationalist administration.

John Swinney, the finance secretary, described it as a "transformation in the relationship between local and national government (which] will free councils from micromanagement and central planning".

As well as giving councils £70 million to freeze council tax levels, it gives local authorities more flexibility over how they spend their cash. The agreement means councils will be able to keep any savings they make and gives the 32 local authorities an extra £101 million over three years.

Revenue funding – the largest part of the local government settlement – will total £31.8 billion over the three years, an increase of 12.7 per cent over that period.

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 15 February 2008 12:05 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Council tax
 
1

,

15/02/2008 00:02:36
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2

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 15/02/2008 00:08:46
The Government is to be congratulated in helping local authorities to freeze the coucil tax. Now we need the timetable for scrapping it completely, as per the Government's election manifesto.
3

The poster formerly known as "A with circumflex",

. . . . Roger 15/02/2008 00:13:19
Will this be the deleted thread of the day?
4

The poster formerly known as "A with circumflex",

. . . Irrelevant 15/02/2008 00:16:25
Will this be the deleted thread of the day?
5

Splashie,

15/02/2008 00:16:46
1. Fake, you seem to no grasp of this issue or understanding of arithmetic. The government has given councils additional funding to increase spending, without increasing the council tax.

Without the government action, councils would have increased the council tax and had the same funds.

Of not, the Labour chair of Cosla and councils of all parties have welcome the governments actions, as will all council tax payers.

Well done, another positive move by the SNP.
6

Jimmy the Pie,

15/02/2008 00:28:39
So do New Labour Sleaze and Corruption want tax rises to keep employment artificially high, to keep all their appointees in the custom to which they have become accustomed? The hard suffering tax payers deserve some consideration.
7

,

15/02/2008 00:50:16
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8

Conan the Librarian™,

15/02/2008 01:14:26
9
When it comes out of your poisoned keyboard; yes.
9

Wisnaeme,

15/02/2008 02:25:29
Hello fakie and AM2 squared.

Still hammering out cybernetic innuendo, disinformation and ecliptic prevarications I see. Ach weel, ah suppose yer harmless with yer haverings.

Meanwhile in the real world, outside yer realm of fantasies there are folk at work busily dismantling yer union.

I had a good day at the 'office' yesterday, very productive and I thought I'd give myself the pleasure of informing of that so.

So carry on with yer frantic but harmless dancing on yer keyboard. Yerself and yer cybernetic allusions of whatever for the benefit of who ever is deluded enough to believe in such drivel. Keeps ye occupied while others are going about their beezness with more tangible results than even cybernetic numpties could possibly be in expectation of.

Have a nice day.
.
10

,

15/02/2008 03:17:22
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11

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta 15/02/2008 03:43:53
As well as giving councils £70 million to freeze council tax levels,
----------------------------------------

Hey dudes,
Our US Washington politicians spend that much on petty cash for lunches, at fancy resturants.

Why sweat the petty cash,Or and try to make a big political statement on it.

But that's the SNP mentality for you. A total loser Org.

GC




12

Advance Alba,

edinburgh 15/02/2008 03:50:27
Be careful about throwing around the quality of NAZIdom, #7 + 9. It is a level of debate more than one can play at. If you want to hear about Nazi style politics, there are plenty of instances to found far away from the SNP.
13

,

15/02/2008 04:11:15
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14

somerferg,

oz 15/02/2008 04:54:00
Excellent news and hopefully will lead to an end to all the 'gravy train' Numpty labour administrations around the country.

AM2 - your posts are ridiculous as usual and if you don't mind me saying so smack of desperation - don't worry I'm sure there will be somewhere nice for you and all your ilk to go - perhaps Madagasgar (oops given the secret away)

GC - oh dear what a shame you come from a country that produced so many clever people - I guess DUDE you are just the exception that proves the rule!
15

Richardinho,

15/02/2008 05:16:47
I can honestly say that I don't give a damn about council workers being sacked if my tax bill goes down. It will force the rest to work harder. I have worked in local government and I know that most of them are lazy barstewards.

Whenever I hear someone droning on about 'social justice' I want to punch them really hard.
It is time we started cutting out the cancer of socialism out of this country.
16

donald,

glasgow 15/02/2008 05:58:34
New Labour has more in common with he British National Party than any other party, including the Old Tories.
17

Pundit,

Glasgow 15/02/2008 06:52:44
Council Tax frozen for this year - sounds like agood thing to me, COSLA think its a good thing, most councils think its a good thing, in fact it is difficult to see a down side.
18

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 15/02/2008 08:01:35
Illegal wars of foreign nations?
19

Tracy C,

Aberdeen 15/02/2008 08:20:29
Its fine saying that council tax has been frozen but what about the cuts to keep the spending to the same limit - some £30m in Aberdeen!
20

thinking,

Scotland 15/02/2008 08:29:47
If the Councils are receiving extra funding from the Scottish Executive instead of the extra through increasing council tax why are they cutting back?
21

beckypumps1,

Fife 15/02/2008 08:31:36
13
What are dudes?
Are you suggesting American politicians spend too much money on food?
22

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 15/02/2008 08:56:53
Just don't complain when services are cut - theres no such thing as a "free lunch" remember.

The councillors who have allowed themselves to be bullied by John Swinney into this corner should now explain the full implications of accepting his "bribe"?
23

Citylocal Fife,

Citylocal Fife News Room 15/02/2008 08:57:14
Don't forget how much tax Alistair Darling rips out of this country (Scotland). We do not get back anywhere near what we put in.
24

Richard Head,

15/02/2008 08:57:35
It's all smoke and mirrors really.
Worse roads and further service cuts will follow.
25

Gothic Rose,

15/02/2008 09:10:32
What I do not understand is,why does it take cuts before,Depts. can improve thier efficiency and organization.?
26

Number 6,

Germany 15/02/2008 09:11:30
Well done again the SNP. Clear daylight between their pro-active initiatives and labour's hand wringing. Those councils threatening teacher cutbacks should be audited, I am sure we would find plenty of needless , politically correct spending going on. This kind of disgusting black-mail must be halted in its pathetic tracks.

If a council is so badly run that it is incapable of
correctly budgeting for something as crucial as education, then I would suggest they are not "Fit for purpose".
27

Phil C,

15/02/2008 09:14:11
Stories presented like this are a red rag to the unionist bull. They can't even accept the win-win situation being offered, even though the funding comes from the fairer source of central funding.

I don't expect Labourites to attempt to understand the basics of local funding. They're far too set in their destructive and self-obsessed ways. But for Liberals (#26) to moan, when the replacement of Council Tax by a local income tax is the goal, takes the biscuit!
28

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/02/2008 09:33:04
Yet more biased coverage from the Scotsman, eh Phil? Terrible how they spin every story against the SNP isn't it.

As long as people realise that they are still paying out the same money, just in different ways, then fine. What is worrying is the carte-blanche concordat that was necessary to get councils to agree to this. When some rabid Tory/SNP council cuts core services central government will now be powerless to stop them.
29

Miss H,

15/02/2008 09:34:40
Where is Walter when we need him?
30

megz,

glasgow 15/02/2008 09:35:56
OK here is what my counil say re the freeze

http://tinyurl.com/2
m59lw

Front line services will see no reductions and there are no compulsory redundancies.

What is your council saying??


31

,

15/02/2008 09:36:40
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32

puskas,

East Kilbide 15/02/2008 09:38:19
No,13..

Your a wee devil ...
33

The Strategist,

15/02/2008 09:38:45
Well done the SNP..

The next step should be to see Council Tax go down every year and the way to achieve that is to cut the number of councils.
34

Miss H,

15/02/2008 09:39:17
32 Duncan under a PR system you will not get any 'rabid' councils unless the electorate is equally rabid. Most councils are not under majority control now and even those that are - like Glasgow - are trying hard to make the adjustment to a more inclusive way of working which takes on board the priorities of all elected members. I'm not saying it has all fallen into place in every council, it will take time and in some parts the old tribal loyalties are still paramount, but the culture of local government has changed forever and for the better.
35

Lowest common denominator,

15/02/2008 09:40:39
Total madness. Swinney has just taken the money out the general tax pot to pay for the locals to be robbed of the information telling them how inefficient out councils are.

Presumably the councils will waste our extra tax monies again and then Swinney will claim as their was no visible rise he has achieved something.

Madness.
36

,

15/02/2008 09:40:45
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37

morris,

edinburgh 15/02/2008 09:44:19
Education accounts for half the budget according to the article?

Thats strange. I had always thought / seen Social Work listed as the major expenditure here in Lothian councils ,(maybe I am wrong of course)and that would presumably echo in most local authorities,although I could see why rural councils would need to operate small schools with maybe a handful of pupils and teachers further north and a disproportionate burden placed on them by Education.

1
I have heard nothing about compulsory redundancies and natural wastage seems to be what is intended as far as I can see.
In the case of falling school roles the number of teachers should fall in line, which of course frees them up for employment elsewhere.The total number of teachers available should match the demand failry accurately, and this demand is known in advance since children have to be born 5 years before they go to school (primary)and 12 or so at Secondary/High School.so if we have either a shortage or surplus of teachers then Central Government is to blame.The teaching colleges should be turning out teachers in numbers which meet deamnd and bearing in mind many teachers leave the proffession because of constant interference by the politicians plus earning capability which is higher elsewhere, then a surplus should be a rare commodity indeed.


Now WHO has been in charge of Central Government these last few years I wonder?Ah Yes LABOUR!

Theres no point criticising this unless you attribute responsibilty to where it belongs,not where Labour say it belongs. COSLA accpet this freeze,and most councils expenditure is governed by the grant coming from LONDON which finances 85% of total council expenditure,and that is part of the money you gave in taxes (but only got part of it back). Labour are experts at hazy mists of lies and deception.Thats no reason to vote for them,its the very opposite!
38

,

15/02/2008 09:46:42
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39

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/02/2008 09:52:54
#38 Miss H I fear I've got a rabid council right here. The Lib Dem/SNP coalition of the unwilling in Edinburgh is foaming at the mouth at every turn, making bad decision after terrible decision. Ring-fencing was a crude but effective way of ensuring that core services were maintained, and locally accountable tax raising was a highly effective way of ensuring that decisions on service spending were able to be judged by the electorate. The SNP may have frozen the council tax bill and in so doing helped some of the poorer members of society - and I applaud that - but they have also reduced local accountability and put core services at greater risk, which I cannot applaud.
40

,

15/02/2008 09:53:43
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41

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/02/2008 09:54:09
#39 Come off it. The entire article is positive about this SNP policy. You are tilting at windmills.
42

Major General Puffin-Stuff,

15/02/2008 09:54:23
AM2 -

NO BIG DEAL!!

13 GC

Do you have ANYTHING resembling a brain cell? Just one?
43

Keir Hardie,

Inverness 15/02/2008 10:03:31
The Highland Council - 10% reduction in structural maintenance,10% reduction in road surface renewal
44

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/02/2008 10:06:45
#48 Well that shouldn't cause much of a problem with the extensive public transport network you have up there... oh.
45

morris,

edinburgh 15/02/2008 10:06:51
13

I wish you were a band.Id encourage you to embark upon a solo career and go and play with yourself.You really are the most tiresome pathetic abuse of space I have ever encountered. Why dont you stick your head in a pot of boiling water and make soup with it. I cant see it being any use for anything else.
46

GP,

15/02/2008 10:10:13
Let's hope this is the start of realism coming home.
Next year freeze council tax but provide no additional funds then the following year really bring them into the real world and cut back funding with the freeze in place. They want to be treated the same as commercial workers then so be it. Working improvements alongside redduced budgets is the normal in outisde industry.
It's time!
Natural wastage should take care of most the reductions in staffing I would expect. There will be a glut in the queue for redundancy or early retirement.
Local authorities can provide the same level of service as they do now , in fact I would expect and increase in service. These are the hard objectives to be set to all Local Authority chairmen. For too long they have milked the local tax payer based on their lack of imagination and improved stewardship.
Yes it is TIME!


47

morris,

edinburgh 15/02/2008 10:10:14
48

Yes okay,and your increase in council tax is what?
48

morris,

edinburgh 15/02/2008 10:26:18
43

Apart from anything else the NAZI party were anything BUT nationalist or socialist.They were imperialist empire builders of a distinctly right wing fascist nature,and politically opposite of everything the SNP stand for. It would certainly be a Labour supporter or one of the Loony Left parties possibly, but a distinctly thick one who would even resort to posting something as dumb as that. I'm convinced its not Am2 even though I never actually read what it said.Unless Foulkes has been on the jungle juice again?

Most people would agree that theres not much between the three Unionist parties to choose from as they all try to capture the middle ground in an attempt at supremacy. The Tories have diluted slightly in an attempt to recover votes. The New Labour Party have moved right because they know they cannot win in England unless they stay to the right of centre,and at the moment look like getting their butts kicked anyway. The Lib Dems I would have to say are much the same as they always were,the problem is I'm not exactly sure where that is !They seem to try to be all things to all men a bit like a chameleon but at least they are arguably sometimes more left wing than Labour.Thats not saying a lot.
49

megz,

glasgow 15/02/2008 10:30:38
it is funny to think that lib dems once had power (well til labour came along and it was all over for them)
50

Transparent?,

Scotland 15/02/2008 10:30:53
How does the total annual Council Tax, received by councils, compare with the £70million they have been offered? Anybody have this number?
51

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 15/02/2008 10:32:23
Less tax, less teachers. Sounds fair enough, if that's what we want.
52

megz,

glasgow 15/02/2008 10:35:42
The City of Edinburgh Council will consider a recommendation from the Administration to a freeze on Council Tax for 2008/09 following extensive analysis of the deal offered to the local authorities by the Scottish Government. To raise the £6.898 million offered by the Scottish Government we would have had to raise Council Tax by 3.15%. dunno about everywhere else. but i'd imagine it would be something similar.
53

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 15/02/2008 10:41:41
#57 megz

Yup, 3.15% sounds very similar to the rate of inflation.
54

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 15/02/2008 10:45:41
46

And you are being Mr Negative again why dont you try telling us when was the last time something positive was done about the council tax under Labour?
The Tories of course were all about the Poll tax.
Why are you always so negative to everything the SNP does even when its positive popular and beneficial to even yourself? cant you just give credit where credit is due? or are you just warped by party political dogma and incapable of any cohesive objective principles or thought?
Or are you just another grubby sad little cybertroll?
55

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 15/02/2008 10:45:43
#40

Yup, that just about sums it up.
56

Alan Reid,

NZ 15/02/2008 10:54:27
All in all a good deal done by the SNP. Proving once again that independance would only made Scotland a better place to live in for the Scots.
Well done Mr Salmond and the SNP, unionists tossers? eat my shorts!
57

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 15/02/2008 10:55:57
The article is saying that the Edinburgh government has Sucessfully persuaded local authorities to freeze the council tax, that's all. Jeez-o...
58

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 15/02/2008 11:14:14
The Council Tax freeze has nothing to do with changing the local government tax system. It is purely Grandstanding. It Sounds Good, and no politician will stand in the way of a proposal that Sounds Good. However, it is a disguised tax cut, whether for local or Edinburgh government, and the results are still most unclear. So, we can have free care for the elderly (another Grandstanding excercise), smaller class sizes, no university tuition charges, free prescriptions, more police, and a tax cut. Rubbish.
59

Bermuda Bie,

Edinburgh 15/02/2008 11:14:48
41. AJ Fife
I just look forward to seeing AJ's drivel every morning. Spectacular is hardly a word I would use in reference to the Scottish Government ( the minority of which is SNP). Pedantic, sad, uninspiring sometimes ludicrous all seem more appropriate! But keep on dreaming AJ and Chubby Cheeks might achieve something good. (His wife hopes for ther same I understand)
60

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 15/02/2008 11:19:42
64

Muppet! the plan is to change the council tax system to a local income tax system which will take approx 2 to 3 years to implement the idea is to cap council tax rises until the transition can occur. Something that would never have occured with any of the other parties cos their controlled from London and anything they do up here they have to emulate down South and that wouldnt be practical.
Thats the difference in having your own Government as opposed to a foreign government looking after their own interests first.
61

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 15/02/2008 11:21:59
#66 Muppet

Ah I see! So Local Income Tax will also be capped?
62

 Ayrshire Scot™,

15/02/2008 11:23:02
26 Would that include the Lib Dem councils who have accepted the council tax freeze?

And what cuts - you are another one who can't do simple sums - the SNP have provided extra funding to councils, so they can maintain services without increasing council tax. The alternative would be either a council tax increase, or a freeze with cuts.

While Wendy and the Lib Dems were highlighting services in Edinburgh, perhaps Labour and the Lib Dems could explain the impact of Trams on other services - that was a political choice they made.
63

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 15/02/2008 11:24:15
#66 Muppet

So why, exactly, is a council tax freeze required in order to usher in a Local Income Tax?
64

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 15/02/2008 11:28:32
69

Why does the tax have to be increased while it being phased out? do you pay more for products passed their sell by date or less?
65

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 15/02/2008 11:30:52
69

Not only that but they can then bring in the local income tax at todays rates and not the rates they will be with increases over 2 to 3 years.
What a terrible idea.
66

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 15/02/2008 11:32:41
#70

Either for local, or Scottish services, it is a tax cut at the rate of inflation, and of course it will have implications. I'm all for it, but I would prefer to have a little bit of honesty from the politicians.
67

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 15/02/2008 11:35:00
72

Wouldnt we all.
68

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 15/02/2008 11:37:38
#73

Yes indeed. However, a tax-cut at the inflation-rate for 3 years sounds good.
69

Thistledhu,

Fife 15/02/2008 11:42:19
#18 point taken there is a good few lazy useless individuals in local goverment who are carried by there hard working collegues.

The problem is that any job losses will be sufferd by the hard working section of local goverment as the passengers tend to be fairly senior or influential in the Union or local Labour party often both therefore untouchable.
70

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 15/02/2008 11:49:26
It would be interesting if Westminster froze the funding for the Scottish Executive for 3 years...
71

mike3,

Midlands 15/02/2008 11:49:53
Where is the money being taken from to pay for this?



Prescription charges in England?
72

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 15/02/2008 11:51:42
74

It may be longer if the other parties get together to block the tax proposals or was it passed with the budget?
73

AJ Fife,

15/02/2008 11:51:47
Bermuda bi#65,

Thanks for that. As long as I know I get right on yer t*ts, I'll keep up my good work!
74

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 15/02/2008 11:53:33
76

Wouldnt it just adios union.
75

,

15/02/2008 11:54:43
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76

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 15/02/2008 11:55:29
77

We can but hope.
77

Sgurr,

15/02/2008 11:56:37
The real trick would be getting councils to run more efficiently. Nice to have a freeze, but to be honest, I'd rather see my money not wasted on endless diversity awareness training courses and the like, for staff. I have a funny feeling that the SNP is robbing peter to pay paul.
78

mike3,

Midlands 15/02/2008 11:57:32
"77

We can but hope."


at least you're honest
79

Miss H,

15/02/2008 12:01:11
72 - It is a tax cut for council tax payers but it is not a cut in the overall amount of money which is available to local government because it has been compensated for. It has been compensated for with money from central government which obviously comes from taxpayers so in reality if it is anything, it is a shifting of the burden rather than a cut. The point being that council tax - unlike income tax - is not based on ability to pay and therefore the continuous above-inflation increased that we saw under Labour and the Lib Dems had a tougher impact on those who are on low or fixed incomes than on the well off. It is the people on low and fixed incomes who will benefit the most from the council tax freeze which is why the Government has done it.

Labour at parliamentary level, inexplicably, now seem to be adopting a position of advocating council tax increases which not only sets them at odds with their council colleagues but also with many of their natural constituents - or people who would have been their natural constituents in years gone by.

It is further proof that they are not thinking ahead because having adopted a pro tax and spend position here they are going to have to do a complete change around when the SNP introduces proposals for a local income tax, supposing they are going to maintain their position of claiming that a local income tax is a tax on 'hardworking families'.
80

Miss H,

15/02/2008 12:08:29
84 I think you will see councils becoming more efficient through the fact that the government has lifted the ring fencing of money and has also shifted to outcome agreements with councils rather than requiring them to implement the various action plans set out by previous governments. That means the council will agree the desired outcomes with central government - but it is then up to them to decide how to achieve them. And in terms of efficiency savings, the fact that councils can keep the efficiency savings they make is an incentive to do the job properly and also increases the amount available for reinvestment.
81

Miss H,

15/02/2008 12:12:21
44 Duncan I think you know what my answer to that would be so I won't even bother...
82

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 15/02/2008 12:12:35
85

Actually I was being satirical.
83

Jimmy Jillikers,

Glasgow 15/02/2008 12:16:26
Have the SNP managed to leave more money in the working persons pocket?

I thought that was traditionally the Labour Party's battle cry.

OOPS ... sorry that was old Labour and not the capitalist New Labour that are in place now.
84

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/02/2008 12:18:48
#59 Please stop calling me names, it is a very childish way to argue.

Here is what I said about the move to freeze council tax:

"The SNP may have frozen the council tax bill and in so doing helped some of the poorer members of society - and I applaud that - but they have also reduced local accountability and put core services at greater risk, which I cannot applaud."

This is a balanced response. I gave credit where it was due. I am glad that some of the poorer people in society will be helped by this move. I don't think it is in anyone's interest, however, to pretend that this is an act of largesse in isolation. The truth is that our overall tax burden continues to increase, that the concordat with local government has negative aspects for service quality, and that local accountability has been reduced as a result of these changes.

So I reverse the question - why are you always so positive to everything the SNP does even when it has an obvious downside? Or are you just warped by party political dogma and incapable of any cohesive objective principles or thought?
85

Bermuda Bie,

Edinburgh 15/02/2008 12:21:27
AJ 79
Far from it AJ - you make me chuckle!
86

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 15/02/2008 12:23:22
Miss H

Maybe you can explain what Swinney is playing at by introducing an increase in national pension contributions for the employees and a decrease in contributions from the employers?
I think he has made a bad mistake with this one. How is it possible to say that the new local income tax proposals are going to be beneficial because of its fairness in relation to ability to pay and then introduce a measure which uses this ability to pay to take more money for the national pension scheme?
This smacks of a Labour tax shift to me and it will to many others less sympathetic as well.
87

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/02/2008 12:24:26
#87 Ah, I see, it's a question of faith. :-)

These outcome agreements which do not mandate spending on services will nonetheless manage to ensure delivery remains as good? How?
88

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 15/02/2008 12:26:45
91 Duncan

"The SNP may have frozen the council tax bill and in so doing helped some of the poorer members of society - and I applaud that - but they have also reduced local accountability and put core services at greater risk, which I cannot applaud."

You are being very vague and obtuse with yer arguments again Duncan how about fleshing this statement out with some detail or even evidence to give it credibility?

89

kimba,

15/02/2008 12:37:08
Hope you all appreciate the sacrifices we in England are making for you!
90

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 15/02/2008 12:40:13
96

No we dont maybe if you sacrificed a few more Englishmen we would be more appreciative.
91

,

15/02/2008 12:43:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
92

Alan B,

15/02/2008 12:44:16
I think this is a short term populist move, but avoids actually dealing with the underlying issues. If u freeze it this yr what happens next. Council will simply increase tax at a higher level in the future. The problem really is that councils have been increasing this tax at high levels over a period of time (way ahead of inflation). Ring fencing is all about setting national objectives rather than local ones.

Personally i think it would be better to move services to the sp level where things are better run centrally and then let councils run the rest without interference from central government. Education in many ways is a national service. While it is sensible to devolve day to day respsonbilities to schools, employment and exams are all currently nation wide. As such it may make sense to move education to be run directly from the sp in a decentralised way. This also would mean that there were more clear line of responsiblity. What advantage is there of councils getting involved in education.

In many ways much of what was done by the regional councils would be better done by the sp. Local government should be really for local issues.



93

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 15/02/2008 12:44:57
#86 Miss H

Ah, so the amount of funding that will be allocated to the Scottish Executive will be increased to account for the tax freeze and the rate of inflation?
94

kimba,

15/02/2008 12:44:58
i.e prescription charges-£6.85
council tax-up 4%
student loans-have to pay back every penny
Elderly care-if put in a elderly care residence,have to sell home to pay for it. WHY? so you in scotland can have your 28 billion courtesy of the scottish raj at westminster
95

,

15/02/2008 12:45:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
96

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 15/02/2008 12:47:16
99

How can it be a short term measure if its linked to the overall changes in the local tax system?
I dont know whether to laugh scream or spit.
97

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 15/02/2008 12:49:39
#99

Your suggestion for more centralised decentralisation did make me chuckle :-)
98

AJ Fife,

15/02/2008 12:49:59
Bermuda bi#92,

I bet I chuckle more than you?
99

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 15/02/2008 12:52:44
100

No the way it works is we get an increase proportional to the increases given to local authorities thoughout the rest of the UK based on population ratios.
Its called the Barnett formula remember? but this increase was smaller this year cos the SNP had the audacity to win the election.
100

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/02/2008 12:53:34
#98 What are you talking about? I had the same problem a few weeks ago and emailed the Scotsman and the postings were removed immediately.

You are being a wind-up merchant and a conspiracy theorist. AM2 is no more working for the Scotsman than I am.
101

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/02/2008 12:54:50
#102 Stop it. You have grabbed hold of the wrong end of the stick, and are making a fool of yourself.
102

kimba,

15/02/2008 12:55:33
97. Maybe if you raised some of your own money and stopped relying on England we'd all be better off.
103

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 15/02/2008 12:56:32
Yes of course anything else?
104

megz,

glasgow 15/02/2008 12:58:16
101 surely kimba you should be asking why your government are not dealing with these things as a priority rather than spening millions on wars and weapons and nuclear stations. Your issue is with them not us. Dont moan at us because we are getting it, moan at them because you're not.
105

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 15/02/2008 12:58:23
109

I have a coffee jar full of 1p 2p and 5ps so whats your problem?
106

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 15/02/2008 12:58:49
#106

I see, but increases in central goverment funding for local authorities in the rest of the UK will be less that the increases that will be required in Scotland, unless the local authorities in the rest of the UK also decide to freeze their council tax rates. Or does the formula include council tax?
107

AJ Fife,

15/02/2008 12:59:20
Dunc#107,

Are the holidays good with the Scotsman? How about the pension?
108

kimba,

15/02/2008 13:00:13
110.nope that's about it!
109

,

15/02/2008 13:02:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
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110

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 15/02/2008 13:02:26
#111 megz

Don't forget that the people of Scotland voted for the politicians in Westminster. Even if you voted for a SNP representative in Wesmimster it hardly entitles you to claim absolution from the decisions made there.
111

megz,

glasgow 15/02/2008 13:03:01
kimba, the SNP want total independence which would mean us raising our own money. The wendy commission/review/working group want to look at tax raising powers among other things but UK labour MPs do not want this, admittedly it is mostly Scottish labour MPs that are against this because they are concerned about their relevance or lack thereof. I want to see scotland independent and raising/spending our own money. I apologise to you on behalf of all the people who vote labour.
112

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 15/02/2008 13:05:28
113

If you say so no doubt you are now going to show us the evidence supporting this?
Of course dont forget the key parameter in the Barnett formula is the population ratio figure.
Bit difficult to squeeze anymore out of them unless we all start having a lot more babies.
113

Phil C,

15/02/2008 13:06:00
#32 DiE

Did I say this story was biased against the SNP? No, I was suggesting it would be mistakenly seen by the unionist blockheads like yourself as biased toward the SNP. This is a bit more like proper reporting.

The incredible bias by the Scotsman, usually directed towards Labour, makes me sick and sent me and many others to the Herald for a while. They didn't know how to handle the heated debate and shut everything down! In general they do know how to report more fairly though.

Duncan, I had you down as a Tory/Liberal but you seem to be sliding towards the nothingness that is Labour. I'm not talking to you any more today as you waste far too much of everyone's time with your entrenched nonsense. Good day to you sir!

114

kimba,

15/02/2008 13:06:25
111. You seem to forget we have a bunch of UNELECTED scotsmen running westminster,however, we have managed to get a review of the "Barnett Formula" and hopefully in due course we will have this reformed.
115

megz,

glasgow 15/02/2008 13:07:28
117 the SNP MPs tend not to vote on english matters and only vote on things relevant to scotland as is their job. Imho Scottish labour MP's helping vote to introduce things like student fees in england is scandalous.
116

megz,

glasgow 15/02/2008 13:10:27
121, don't vote labour in the next election.
117

kimba,

15/02/2008 13:13:49
118.Apology excepted, but salmond is more to blame than all Labour supporters put together.
118

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 15/02/2008 13:14:09
Rule Number One: No politician EVER returns taxes to the people who pay them. Never. Not ever. If they are freezing council tax it is 100% certain that they have simply figured out a way to recoup that money for themselves via another route; another stealth tax. It just looks better if you aren't seen to be sending old ladies to jail because they can't pay the massivley increased council tax - its much easier to steal their money via stealth taxes on petrol, food, heating fuel, passports etc. There are no free lunches - unless of course you are a politician - in which case everything is free: housing, mortgages, travel, food, drinkies, family members salaries - and guess what, you get £60 k on top of all that - plus the most generous pensions in the country. Aren't you glad that these nice people are in charge?
119

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 15/02/2008 13:14:25
#113

No - the Barnett formula is also based on a lot of other things. If it was based almost entirely on population, then Scotland would get a much smaller settlement. Anyway, that line of discussion is very tedious in the extreme.

So basically, will the Scottish executive be getting more money from the UK central government in order to pay for the tax cut? It is not very clear to me (don't think it is very clear to you either, which makes me think that we are both getting the wool pulled over our eyes)...
120

morris,

edinburgh 15/02/2008 13:15:32
77

With all due respect Mike thats a stupid comment. Scotlands taxes are returned under the BArnett formula which gives us less than we contribute. Your comment would be better directed at LONDON who receive 114% of what the conmtribute,or North of England who also get more.I exclude Northern Ireland who also get more,because Im sure if I studied Northern Irelands case I wouldprobably agree that higher expenditure there should exist.Most of England subsidises LOndon as do we Scots.

The figures are as far as I know as follows:
North East £8,177 - 111% of UK average identifiable expenditure
North West £7,798 - 106%
Yorkshire and Humberside £7,188 - 98%
East Midlands £6,491 - 88%
West Midlands £7,065 - 96%
Eastern £6,144 - 83%
London £8,404 - 114%
South East £6,304 - 86%
South West £6,677 - 91%

In any case this is a matter for Westminsters parliament and NOTHING to do with Scotland who receive £8623 according to the Barnett claculation but this takes NO account of the income from Scotlands North Sea sector which to date has given Westminster 236 billion. We are NOT taking money from England ! LONDON is taking money from England !
121

kimba,

15/02/2008 13:15:33
121. There is no fear of that! English Democrat through and through.
122

AJ Fife,

15/02/2008 13:19:19
#128,

You sure it's not the BNP, Herr Kimba?
123

kimba,

15/02/2008 13:19:57
127.LOL, ARE YOU FOR REAL. under the Barnett Formula the people of scotland get 28 BILLION pounds irrespective of oil revenues,and that was 12 billion in the last financial year.
124

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 15/02/2008 13:20:13
#122

Well either they do or they don't. Which is it? It is still your parlament. I only commented because your them / us language you were inferring that there are no elected representatives for Scotland.
125

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 15/02/2008 13:22:04
#127 Morris

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!!!!!!!!!!

Eeek... no please don't.
126

Busymale,

15/02/2008 13:22:15
How about reducing Council Tax by getting rid of the jobs we don't need when we stop interfering in areas government shouldn't be in?

Put the Tax Payer first!
127

kimba,

15/02/2008 13:24:24
129.AJ, COP THIS!“Sooner rather than later, the Barnett Formula bonanza will be scrapped, and when it is, there will be no doubt which side of the border will benefit. Instead of shipping billions to Scotland, taxes raised in England will once again be spent on public services for the benefit of the people of England – including those in Berwick-upon-Tweed.”





Robin Tilbrook

Chairman

Quires Green

Willingale

Ongar

Essex CM5 0QP

Tel: 01277 896000

Fax : 01277 896050
128

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 15/02/2008 13:25:53
126

No the Barnett formula is very basic in the extreme with only 2 basic parameters. Dont try and dismiss the debate cos all of yer questions have been answered what were you looking for ammunition to critise SNP policy? get yer gums round this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnett_Formula

You can email the Chancellor any time you like and ask him he hasnt confided in me since taking power its obviously gone to his head.
With every new tax system we will have to wait and see.
On paper and in theory at least it looks workable and should benefit the majority which is the best we can hope for it obviously wont suit everybody but then what does?
It certainly cannae be any worse than the present council tax system or its predecesor the poll tax can it?
129

Busymale,

15/02/2008 13:26:05
Kimba, I've just read your threads. What a thoroughly twisted individual you are! Scotland has been held back by 300 years of Unionism and to say we live off the English is a lie. Infact its the other way around when you take into account our natural assets.

Secondly, we have different laws from you because thats what Devolution is about, and we gave people like you who live here in Scotland the right to vote on it. Take your bile with you when you drive south - permanently!
130

kimba,

15/02/2008 13:28:52
136,LOL I am south,have you read my post at 134,from the English democrat chairman!
131

AJ Fife,

15/02/2008 13:36:27
#137,

LOL the English Democrat Chairman indeed!!!!

What skeletons does he have in his locker I wonder?

132

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 15/02/2008 13:37:31
#135

You didn't answer the question. I will repeat: Will the Scottish executive be getting more money from the UK central government in order to pay for the tax cut?

If the answer in no, then do you think this tax freeze is in the best interests of the Scottish people?
133

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 15/02/2008 13:42:00
#135

You didn't answer the question. I will repeat: Will the Scottish executive be getting more money from the UK central government in order to pay for the tax cut?

If the answer in no, then do you think this tax freeze is in the best interests of the Scottish people?

Have a look at the Wikipedia explaination for 'Magnetism' and you will see what a fine resource it is :-)
134

kimba,

15/02/2008 13:42:52
138,not as many as you, be afraid,very afraid the English have woken up to the back stabbing by the scottish raj,and are about to rectify the matter,you may wish to hide!
135

Alan B,

15/02/2008 13:46:46
#103 "How can it be a short term measure if its linked to the overall changes in the local tax system?"

1)cos given half a chance councils will just raise it again. if u look what happened when the tories increased vat to 17.5% to keep the poll tax down. within a few yrs we are stuck with a higher rate of vat and local taxes have gone through the roof.
2)while i understand they want to introduce a local income tax i do not really see how that advances it.

my underlying point is councils were structure for a time before the sp, is it really likely that the same structure powers is still applicable. one of my issues with the local income tax is that it is really going to be a national income tax and then central goverment distrute the money. also why i do not like ring fencing do we really want a situation were renfrewshire spends x amt on education and lanarkshire spends y.

#104 "Your suggestion for more centralised decentralisation". i know i knew when i wrote it was silly. but seriously i just think running say education from the sp directly funded and decentralising powers to schools is better than forcing councils to implement policies they do not necessarily agree with.

it would also make sense in things like building regulation. why do we need different rules for different councils it absolutely barking. i can understand councils having planning decision but why have different technical standards when u want to make changes to ur property (particularly internally).
136

AJ Fife,

15/02/2008 13:48:27
Kimba,

You forget, I'm all for English independence. It's about time you grew up as a nation and started to take more responsibility!
137

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 15/02/2008 13:56:35
143

What the hell are you talking about?
138

Miss H,

15/02/2008 13:57:46
140 No the Scottish Government has nor got extra money to pay for a council tax freeze. It did not get extra money to pay for free personal care either or to abolish tuition fees. None of the distinctive policies which devolved administrations in Wales and Northern Ireland as well as Scotland have pursued have received extra funding because is up to devolved administrations to decide how to spend their budgets.
139

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 15/02/2008 14:01:34
140

Actually I thought I did.

But what you should be asking is will the Scottish Government ask for more money from Westminster in order to fund the tax cut. And if they do will they get it and if they do will you stop worrying about it? and if they dont who will you blame?

Actually I was under the impression the entire process had already been costed in the manifesto. Havent you read it?
140

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 15/02/2008 14:03:13
#146

What 'free personal care'? I was under the impression that that was something that was vote for to make politicians look good. But not implemented.
141

Sgurr,

15/02/2008 14:05:14
Time the English learned to stand on their own two feet and stop assuming that more talented politicians from north of the border will run things for them.

Seriously, how bad does it have to get when you've had Brown, Blair, Darling, Cook, Reid, Alexander, Falconer et al....god, there must be a serious dearth of talent in England for that bunch of muppets to have a say.
142

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 15/02/2008 14:05:58
#147

Once again, you did not answer the question.
143

Miss H,

15/02/2008 14:06:00
93 He is making local authority pension schemes sustainable by bringing together the unions, COSLA and government and actually agreeing a way ahead. This cooperation stuff actually does work you see.
144

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/02/2008 14:06:16
#148 Well it certainly won't be implemented now, because the SNP have just removed the requirement to do so from local authorities!
145

morris,

edinburgh 15/02/2008 14:11:16
138

Scotland pays more into the UK than she takes out of it.THAT HAS BEEN ACKNOWLEDGED BY ALL UNIONIST PARTIES at some time or other.Even Labour!
The 236 billion in oil revenues which have accumulated to Westminster to date,would have stayed had we been in an independent Scotland ,along with the taxes we pay on a pro rata basis. This is not economics,its simple arithmetic, which you should be well capable of understanding.
In an economy of 5 million people that 236 billion equates to a major injection of money.Scotland has been subsidising the UK, not taking form it and that is indisputible fact.Its acknowledged by all Unionist parties for God sake.

I would like nothing better than England to take her independence and pay her own bills. If the people in Scotland were lied to (and the McCrone Report proves it is so), then so were the people in England.Its simple enough to understand and declaring to the world that you cannot undersytand it is hardly to be reccomended.
SCOTLAND SUBSIDISES THE ENTIRE UNITED KINGDOM.
Labour (it was on TV in the shape of Brian Wilson )admitted that Scotland was a very rich nation should she become independent, and claimed that Labour had explained this to the Scottish people who rejected it.
All you have to do is read the crud that appears on here about Alabania etc to know that this is simply not correct and LABOUR LIED THROUGH THEIR TEETH.
146

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 15/02/2008 14:13:31
93

And are the unions consulting their members before agreeing to this through the ballot or are they just going ahead without consultation as they did under Labour? The first I even heard of this was reading the thread today in the paper. I dont remember seeing it in the manifesto either.
147

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 15/02/2008 14:15:23
147

No what I didnt do was give you the answer you want theres a difference. You havent answered any of my questions at all.
148

Miss H,

15/02/2008 14:15:40
99 Alan B. Councils will tell you that they had no option but to increase council tax because they had to deliver an ever increasing number of central government priorities which were not fully funded. Labour and the Lib Dems never used the tax raising powers of the Scottish Parliament because they didn't have to - they made councils do the tax increasing instead. They also interfered far too much in the delivery of services. I do not think that centralising local services is a good idea, it reduces responsiveness and accountability and innovation. Councils should be left to run their own services as they see fit within the context of outcomes they have agreed with government. Having a one-size-fits-all-approach would not increase either efficiency or the quality of services.
149

Miss H,

15/02/2008 14:21:52
152 Duncan that is an outright and bare faced lie. Free personal and nursing care is a statutory right. In order to ensure that everyone entitled to the service gets it the SNP has increased the payments in line with inflation, for the first time since the policy was announced and has committed to implement the findings of the Sutherland Review without ambuguity.

People who argue that free personal care payments should be ring fenced just don't understand how things work. If you ring fenced those payments councils would spend up to that level but they would not spend above it. With a demand responsive service like this that would mean either that you would have to fund the entire potential demand, which would be extortionate and wasteful, or you would have to set a ceiling on it which would pretty much guarantee that there would be waiting lists and people who would go without.
150

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/02/2008 14:25:50
#157 Increased what payments in line with inflation? They have just removed these ring-fenced payments from council funding! You cannot have it both ways!

They have given councils a free hand in how much they spend on this. Where are the checks and balances to ensure this statutory duty is done? From my reading of the concordat the councils have a great big get-out clause for this and every other previously ring-fenced service provision.
151

Miss H,

15/02/2008 14:28:44
158 Payments for free personal and nursing care have never been ring fenced Duncan.
152

Duncan in Edinburgh,

15/02/2008 14:30:59
#159 Ah, fair enough, my mistake.
153

Disputer,

15/02/2008 14:31:34
149 Sgurr

Actually, I thought Cook was one of the better labour politicians of his generation. He was a man of principle.
154

morris,

edinburgh 15/02/2008 14:35:29
158

If you remove ring fencing then the council is reponsible for allocation of its own expenditure,and even Labour councils have welcomed this. Its just as possible for something to increase as it is decrease but of course the total is the same so its a case of redirecting funds.If you are not happy with the decisions/priorities of the council for your area then you remove them same as you have always done.

Removal of Ring Fencing releases the councils hands and whether they change anything or remain the same is entirely up to each council.They will only change if they have a reason to do so.
Im stating the obvious for God sake.
YOu cannot possibly fail to comprehend this Can You? Its not responsible for any changes The COUNCIL decides and the COUNCIL are responsible.Thats why we elected them
155

Sgurr,

15/02/2008 14:40:09
Disputer - funny you should say that! I admired Cook in the way that I admire politicians like Benn and Ken Clark - clear of thought, principled and ultimately human...even if they sometimes have barking mad ideas! I have what I call a "pub principle" about those folk - ie could you happily spend a couple of hours chatting to them down your local pub? I guess you could easily with the above.
156

BMeister,

15/02/2008 14:41:55
#149 Sgurr
Oh come on, that's just the Labour party, take the Liberals, they've had Kennedy, Campell, and now they've got thingy, you know, the not Scottish one. OK, not a good example, look at the Cons, they've got Campbell now and they've had um, Vague, no Plague, no no Hague, and um, um, ..... Major?
157

morris,

edinburgh 15/02/2008 14:43:46
161

He does have one major saving grace to his name.
When Blair said 1) I have seen conclusive proof of the existence of womds
then later said
2) I still believe they exist
he recognised that these two statements are chronologically impossible.

Something can maybe exist and subsequently exist.
It cannot be true in reverse.

Cook knew Blair was lying and resigned. He alone of that Labour government showed any sense of honour.
158

BMeister,

15/02/2008 14:48:51
165 Morris,
I'd agree with you there, I don't remeber being impressed with him before then (or after) but in that one case he showed he had some backbone and principles.
159

,

15/02/2008 15:03:19
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160

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 15/02/2008 15:06:57
154 Should be directed at 151 sorry about that Miss H.
161

Alan B,

15/02/2008 15:08:01
#156 Miss H

I agree with much what u say there. If we are going to have councils they should be free to run their own affairs. Something like "Councils should be left to run their own services as they see fit within the context of outcomes they have agreed with government." does not really acheive that.

My problem is i do not think it is an ideal situation were local government are responsible for implementing the policies of national government. The way is see it, if the policy is a national policy central goverment should run it. That does not necessarily mean centralisation. U do not have to give powers to local councils to have decentralisation.

Local government should really raise most of the tax they spend and spend the money without central governement interfering.

What advantages are there for giving local government responsiblity for schools but not health. salaries are not local, the curriculum is not local, governments ring fence the expenditure (that maybe through things like mcrone or as u say "context of outcomes they have agreed with government").

As i see it removing 1 or 2 of the high areas of expenditure would allow councils to raise and spend more of there own money and would allow the public to get a better idea of what councils actually do.

with the abolishment of regional councils things like the police are not set up to be directly run by councils.

With the example i used about technical standards. This seems to be what AS is talking about where we are talking about so much bueacracy. why have different technical standards for different councils. when u talk to a builder about say removing an interal wall the way u can do that is differnet in different areas. what advantage does that have for anyone except delay and pushing costs up.

162

Disputer,

15/02/2008 15:09:04
167

Good afternoon SunShine. Still not got your own moniker?
163

megz,

glasgow 15/02/2008 15:24:16
131. I just don't see westminster as my parliament. As far as i'm concerned the holyrood government is what is important. I can see why english people get upset when scottish mps push through policies that only affect england such as top-up fees.
164

Alan B,

15/02/2008 15:29:27
Does anyone think it would be good idea to abolish the councils for edinburgh and glasgow and have a directly elected mayor?
165

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 15/02/2008 15:34:23
No mention of North Ayrshire there. It wouldn't surprise me if they opt out. Their greed knows no bounds.
166

Media 1,

cape town 15/02/2008 16:12:37
Robbing from Peter to pay Paul is how governments must operate! The secret is in getting the balance right, and 2 years from now, the effects of this outrageous plan will be felt! I cant wait to get back to Scotland and begin saying no to the SNP.
167

Disputer,

15/02/2008 16:36:51
....then you'll return?
168

,

15/02/2008 16:42:11
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169

,

15/02/2008 16:53:08
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170

,

15/02/2008 16:55:48
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171

,

15/02/2008 17:00:47
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172

,

15/02/2008 17:03:22
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173

,

15/02/2008 17:07:39
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174

,

15/02/2008 17:18:01
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175

Disputer,

15/02/2008 17:18:12
179 Fake Ayrshire/SunShine and others

You posted this yesterday. You called me Methalions (eh) so I called you SunShine. OK?

180 Same.....SunShine posted this exact phrase...as did "other" posters. What's your point?

181 Fake pt 3.
176

Disputer,

15/02/2008 17:18:43
ps...you haven't "done" Nova for a while.....
177

Miss H,

15/02/2008 17:24:36
It's amazing the number of anti SNP posters who live on their investments isn't it?

Though they used to call them giros in my day.
178

Miss H,

15/02/2008 17:27:15
183 Keep it coming.

Tell you what - why don't you get yourself a sandwich board saying 'Vote Labour if you're sensible like me' and follow Alex Salmond about everywhere.
179

kimba,

15/02/2008 17:30:24
144,AJ.England grew up a long time ago,pity the scots that run this great country of ours have not.
180

Disputer,

15/02/2008 17:31:06
....or JPF...
181

The Master,

15/02/2008 17:40:32
Am I the only one who’s got a feeling of déjà vu over all this? To all you Nats out there who love to condemn New Labour for being like the Tories, try substituting the name “Michael Forsyth” into that sentence and transporting yourselves back about 12 years.
182

Daily user,

Queensferry 15/02/2008 17:47:25
#1 Clearly a finger on the pulse.

I work for Fife Council and, already there is talk of redundancies to save money. The trouble with this SNP initiative (I support most of them) is that cost savings will not be made by cutting the squandering of resources that is prevalent in Fife, (I daresay in other councils as well)they will be made by incompetant senior managers deciding to make staff redundant while making the remaining staff pick up the pieces. Yes, some senior manager will go; no doubt with nice fat cheques.We've seen all this before !
183

kimba,

15/02/2008 17:55:42
149.Blair always declared himself as English,thank god he was'nt!
184

Daily user,

Queensferry 15/02/2008 17:57:51
#18

....just a little harsh - No?

As my graddaughter would say, "What a silly man" you are #18.
185

Disputer,

15/02/2008 18:00:49
192

He was and is. He's yours.
186

Daily user,

Queensferry 15/02/2008 18:03:35
If any SCOTSMAN reporters are looking at this, perhaps they should do some real investigative reporting and ask the head of I.T. Services in Fife Council how many jobs he will axe during his short (two year very highly paid) contract.
187

,

15/02/2008 18:07:24
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
188

Splashie,

15/02/2008 18:14:57
196. Good to see Labour activists, fresh from Northern Rock, electoral defeat by the SNP, losing half the countries' data, admitting 120 breaches of electoral law, in the middle of a sleaze meltdown with cabinet ministers resigning and two Scottish front benchers reported the fiscal, and in civil war with the PM and Cairns dismissing Alexanders devolution policy while Labour councils embrace the SNP council tax freeze...are still capable of well argued, logical and high minded debate.

189

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 15/02/2008 18:19:05
Wo ist Valter?
190

,

15/02/2008 18:30:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
191

Miss H,

15/02/2008 18:32:55
196 No really, I think you are the modern voice of Scottish Labour. The people need to hear you. Have you thought about going for the leadership when Wendy stands down/is knifed in the back?

I think you would be terrific.
192

Disputer,

15/02/2008 18:49:13
...as in...Kaputed?
193

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 15/02/2008 18:58:42
Jeez. This website is incredible. One has to log in every couple of page refreshes. Sort it out Scotsman. Or is it just stats for your advertisers that you're after?

Was it Brain Dead who said that the SNP would let the Tories in by the back door?

My opinion to that little bit of spin is that the SNP have kicked Lab/Lib out of the front door. They had the opportunity to join in with concensus politics but declined for reasons they think are known only to themselves.

Unfortunately for them, the only time they have been transparent is sinse May 3rd 2007.

Yes, we can see right through you now (not that we couldn't before)
194

Splashie,

15/02/2008 19:00:01
199. Drane

are you saying that Pat Walters, Labour chair of Cosla, and 12 Labour councils, who all welcomed the council tax freeze, are in favour of cutting services to the needy?

The SNP are introducing free prescription charges, have expanded the central heating programme, have abolished road tolls, and have scrapped the graduate endowment and frozen the council tax by giving councils money to safegaurd services without having to increase it. This is not cutting services for the needy. Means testing benefits for the old, introducing tuition fees - these things affect the needy, and are Labour initiatives.

195

Splashie,

15/02/2008 19:04:59
199. Did you see the coroners verdict on UK troops killed in Afghanistan - under equipped, a massive breach of trust by the government - is this Labour govrnment looking after the "needy"?


Or perhaps you think cuts to school transport budgets, cuts to adult and special needs education budgets, pathetic increases to pensions and benefits are all Labour looking after the needy?

Do tell, where is the £30 billion for Trident, which Labour embrace with socialist fervour, and the £8 billion for Iraq, coming from?


196

Disputer,

15/02/2008 19:05:21
That's all very well but what about the Council Tax Freeze? (with apologies)
197

GP,

15/02/2008 20:16:20
Kimba - you will really be sick when you catch cotland up in terms of re-valuations. Wait till you get hit with that one.
Yippee!!!
198

Splashie,

15/02/2008 20:18:42
210 Is her aquarium band D or list D?

199

Conan the Librarian™,

15/02/2008 20:27:35
Ah, Walter.

We shall miss his wee refrain.(What about the Council Tax Freeze?)

I'm feeling all nostalgic now.

Well Walter, what about it?
200

Richardinho,

15/02/2008 20:32:05
'Less tax, less teachers. Sounds fair enough, if that's what we want.'

Such a simple equation! Tell you what, lets go the whole hog and give up ALL our wages to the government, then we'll be able to live in the communist utopia which you so obviously crave!
201

Splashie,

15/02/2008 20:33:44
213. New Cumnock?

202

Terrier2,

15/02/2008 20:36:31
I have no problem with freezing taxes or making many of the parasitic beaureaucrats - opps sorry beloved public servants free to choose a new career. My problem is however the step towards centralisation of power which SNP local taxation policy represents. Can anyone else see the irony of a party which campaigns for independence for Scotland destroying the self determination of local communties within Scotland?

The SNP refer to their plans as a 'Local income tax' it is nothing of the sort - it is a centralised income tax set by central government to pay for local government.

Local services should be paid for out of local taxation as much as possible, and local politicians and communties need the power to raise and lower them as they see fit, otherwise what is the point of having councillors??? Its not practical to vary income tax across different local authorities in a country like the UK/Scotland, so a property tax although not perfect is the next best thing.

I accept many councillors are unfit for office (especially the Labour ones), the waste in local government is a disgrace, and it is always councils which seem to want to apply some of the worst red tape and PC rubbish. But that is our fault for electing them. If you don't like how much you paying or what you are getting back - then you can vote them out, or you can move.

Councillors should be accountable to the people who elected them, and not have to go crawling to central government every year for an increase to their budgets.

Services should be delivered by the people who are best placed to deliver them - the country is already over centralised as it is, and I would say we need to give local government more responsibility not less, maybe then people would actually care who their councillors are instead of electing SNP/Lab/Lib/Tory donkeys.

The tory rate capping during the 1980s was the start of the rot, then the fiasco of the poll tax. The SNPs proposals along with PR, would be one o
203

Terrier2,

15/02/2008 20:37:05
the final nails in the coffin of local democracy in Scotland!!
204

Splashie,

15/02/2008 20:38:12
215. By ending ring fencing and central directives on how councils spend, which Labour (centrally, but not their councils) want?

205

Terrier2,

15/02/2008 20:50:48
217 Yes, I agree the ring fencing should end, but there is more to it than that. It is also about allocating funding between areas, a Labour central government could still channel money into Labour 'heartland' areas, an SNP one could still channel money into theirs, Lib Dems to theirs etc etc. The only way to stop this is for local authorities to set their own tax.
206

Splashie,

15/02/2008 20:53:53
218. A reasonable point. Only c 20% of council funds are raised locally today. It would mean a huge shift to local taxation - given the council tax is regressive and takes little account of ability to pay or occupancy, I would prefer any move to more locally raised taxation to be accompanied by a reform of the system by which it is raised - a local income tax would be fairer.
207

Terrier2,

15/02/2008 21:05:51
I disagree that the value of your property doesn't have a bearing on income, the problem is that the system can't keep up with ups and downs of the property market. I believe a local income tax is used in the States were State income taxes are deducted on top of Federal taxes. The problem is the cost and confusion of administering such a system, especially here where so many people may live in one area, and work in another. Differences in income between areas may also cause disparities, e,g you work somewhere where wages are higher than where you live, so you are taxed at a higher rate?
208

yoric,

15/02/2008 21:37:27
Can Scotland fund this? without cutting services?
In England our Labour Government has cut funding to Local Authorities, but told them not to overspend.
The Result, a freeze on Council Spending across most English Local Authorities and a rise where i live of 4% on last years Council Tax Charges.
We won't forget at Election time.
Anybody fancy swapping Englands Labour Government, for Scotlands SNP?
Brown for Salmond? whats up nobody want Brown back, in Scotland.
209

Terrier2,

15/02/2008 21:44:34
Brown back ! No thanks! Perhaps we should send him to Europe or Mars? In answer to your question - No Scotland can't fund this, without savings and cutting waste which I hope do happen. But then again pigs might fly.
210

Derick fae Yell,

The Cooncil Tax Freeze Hoose Brrr quite like it re 15/02/2008 21:53:45
Can I add me sad regrets fur da demise o puir peerie Walter Ego oda Laburr bunker (er... I mean Durness). May he rest in peace. And may Wendy's bank accoonts be sparkly white. not.

219 - no thanks! Keep it in England. An unscotched grate brit is Mr Brown. Yuk.
211

karinxx,

15/02/2008 21:58:01
221 I too would like to express my sympathy at the passing away of walter ego. How i miss his

"what about the council tax freeze"

sad walter that you never got to see this glorious day day that your dreams would have come true when you campaigned so hard fur it.

212

WKKB,

15/02/2008 23:10:03
so when some councils freeze the tax and others don't is that leaving Scottish Government open for legal action to be taken against it for unfair practices? Going back to the top of this thread I have to agree for the most part with #16. Too many government workers are too lazy to tie their own shoes let along get a job done right. Road workers can't dig a hole in the middle of a busy road but it takes them 3 months to fix the problem and fill the hole and it's NOT because there are too many jobs to be done, It's mostly because of poor management and that usually spells out L A Z I N E S S. The suits at the top can't organise the work so the labourers can only get half the job done and this is what our council tax pays for. I'm all for the freeze if it will actually accomplish something good but it has to be across the board. The residents in and around Edinburgh city center will have their taxes raised to make up for the councils that put the freeze into effect. Is that how it will work?
213

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta 15/02/2008 23:10:35
#205
Do tell, where is the £30 billion for Trident, which Labour embrace with socialist fervour, and the £8 billion for Iraq, coming from?

-------------------------------------------

Dude STOP squawking, we the American tax payers, spend that much each couple of months trashing IRAQ.

U dudes in Scotland are not in the BIG League when it comes to spending taxpayers money .

Leave that to the YANKS ...dude . that's us ..Dude.

GC
214

morris,

edinburgh 16/02/2008 21:29:56
Has anybody seen our friend from Elgin ?

I wanted to congratulate him on Labours excellent showing in Elgin South .
215

Resolutions,

17/02/2008 23:47:25
#226 Morris
Do you mean being in THIRD place out of 10? SNP gain!
No not seen friend from Elgin, just happen to know result.
216

Stephen Allinson,

London, England 22/03/2008 00:29:56
Truly a success for all Scots, never mind us poor f**king English taxpayers - my council tax has just gone up 3.5% to £2550 including £500 for Gordon's new best friend Ken Livingstone. I'm joining the SNP - the sooner that Scotland is free from us filthy English Imperialists the better. Go SNP!!

 

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