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Published Date: 12 August 2008
By Michael Howie
Home affairs correspondent
SCOTLAND'S biggest police authority is considering a freeze on recruiting new officers after being hit with a £25 million pensions bombshell.
Police boards face having to fund higher lump-sum payments for retiring officers – a revelation that threatens to blow apart the Scottish Government's pledge to put an extra 1,000 officers on the street.

The Strathclyde police board has admitted i
t may have to abandon plans to hire hundreds of officers later this year if it is forced to meet the extra costs.

Home Secretary Jacqui Smith has announced extra payments for retiring officers that will, by 2011, cost an estimated £50 million in Scotland, and £25 million in Strathclyde. Police pay and conditions are decided at Westminster, so the Scottish Government has little choice but to approve the changes.

Last month Yvette Cooper, chief secretary to the Treasury, wrote to finance secretary John Swinney rejecting an appeal for an extra £48 million to meet the additional pensions cost.

The move means the bill could land at the door of police boards who are already having to find an extra £100 million in the next three years to pay for increased pensions costs due to a sharp rise in retiring officers.

Paul Rooney, convener of the Strathclyde board, told The Scotsman: "It is simply naïve to believe this kind of shortfall will not impact on front-line policing or recruitment. Strathclyde faces a deeply damaging and immediate threat to essential recruitment plans.

"Unless the Scottish Government accepts immediate responsibility for this shortfall, Strathclyde has no choice but to consider cash-saving options from budgets which have already been slashed.

"The last thing we want is a freeze on police recruitment. Unfortunately the impact of this financial crisis means it must be considered."

Strathclyde Police plans to recruit 942 officers this year, 300 being funded by the Scottish Government. Most will replace retiring police, but recruiting of about 500 of these is now at risk.

A Scottish Government spokesman said police pensions issues were "the subject of ongoing correspondence between the Scottish Government and the UK Government and were discussed at the 31 July meeting between ministers, Cosla (the local authorities' body), Acpos (the police chiefs' association) and the Police Conveners Forum".



Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 11 August 2008 9:52 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Law and Order
 
1

,

12/08/2008 00:01:04
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2

ThomasP,

12/08/2008 00:10:52
Quite interesting...

"A revelation that threatens to blow apart the Scottish Government's pledge to put an extra 1,000 officers on the street."

In otherwords the Scottish Government was on target for their police numbers in the first place despite this papers reports.

"The move means the bill could land at the door of police boards who are already having to find an extra £100 million in the next three years to pay for increased pensions costs due to a sharp rise in retiring officers."

There has been an increase in retiring officers despite other claims from posters and well this paper. Hence the loss of police numbers overall.

"Home Secretary Jacqui Smith has announced extra payments for retiring officers that will, by 2011, cost an estimated £50 million in Scotland, and £25 million in Strathclyde. Police pay and conditions are decided at Westminster, so the Scottish Government has little choice but to approve the changes."

I see. The Nationalist Government has became so popular that the London Government has decided to attempt to destroy the SNP promises.

What about England? Will England receive the extra money to cover the costs of their own policeman and woman?

Pfft...





3

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 00:11:17
Public sector pension costs will bankrupt Britain.

Public Sector workers get paid more than those in the private sector and still strike over the "newspaper letter" myth that they are underpaid.

They get an inflation proof pension and guaranteed early retirement at 60.

The police are worse with their early retirements.

SNP/Labour are tearing Scotland apart. What will follow is this generation (my generation) refusing to pay these baby boomers pensions.

They stabbed me in the back, axed my free education to fund their early retirements and pensions. So they can go and jump, I'm highly skilled and will move abroad. They won't get their hands on my taxes for decades.
4

ThomasP,

12/08/2008 00:15:40
#3

You are an idiot.

Quite alot of the developed countries have problems with their elderly population.

If you are from the younger generation you would be aware that the young generation are being told to save their own pensions because the time we retire pensions will not exist. (state pensions anyway)

Your education is actually more free under the SNP then the last Gov so get over it.
5

subrosa,

12/08/2008 00:17:56
# 3 " I'm highly skilled and will move abroad. They won't get their hands on my taxes for decades."

Bet you'll still claim your state pension though even if you're abroad all your working life.

I note you're not in the least grateful that your parents and their parents generation fought hard for you and your ilk to have further education. In my day it was only the rich who could afford university - the other 95% had to find a job as soon as they left school.
6

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 00:19:45
#1

Typical. But maybe you should read the story.

Quote from the article above (seeing as you clearly can't read):

"Police pay and conditions are decided at Westminster, so the Scottish Government has little choice but to approve the changes."


7

AM2,

Scotland,UK 12/08/2008 00:23:18
#2 ThomasP

This situation was entirely predictable. In fact, meetings about it between Strathclyde Joint Police Board and the Scottish Executive have been ongoing for some ten months.

Elsewhere, Paul Rooney was quoted as saying:

“Despite repeated attempts to get an assurance from the Scottish government that police boards will not be burdened with financial costs of the changes, we have received no such assurances.”

He’s clear that the Scottish government needs to take immediate responsibility.

You didn’t address the claim that budgets “have already been slashed”.

The number of police officers across Strathclyde fell by 214 between June 2007 and June 2008. A further 271 are due to retire in 2007/08. So if they only recruited around 442, that would be actually a net loss of something like 43 officers.

The SNP’s sums have never added up – not on independence, not on this.
8

,

12/08/2008 00:24:34
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9

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 00:25:01
#9

Specifics ?
10

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 00:25:07
6

I did read the article.

Police Forces are going to freeze recruitment. The SNP promised they could deliver 1,000 extra police officers.

The SNP lied. They have no idea how to deliver that promise.

The SNP didn't say it was negotiable, did they? They said it was top priority!

They can spend millions on sign changes, having Alex Salmond getting photographed eating a Scottish sausage, touring the country, flag-waving, parties for Islam.

But they will NEVER deliver THEIR promise on extra police. If costs of police go up, then it is the SNP's responsibilty to account and adjust policy for this.
11

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 00:25:31
Sorry, meant to ask AM2 for specifics. Have you any ?
12

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 00:28:11
#10

Your "islam" focus seems a little distasteful I think, to many of whatever focus.

Can you advise how many liebour/unionist manifesto commitments have been broken in the last 50 years ? Or even in the Fib Dem/Liebore government from 1999 - 2007 in holyrood ? No ? Quelle surpriese. Not.
13

Teofilio Cubillas,

12/08/2008 00:31:15
#3 "Public sector pension costs will bankrupt Britain"

I think you'll find that what is currently bankrupting Britain are the so-called "wealth creators" in the private sector that people like you keep banging on about; you know, Northern Rock and the rest of the spiv property and commodity specualtors. As for me, I pay £450 a month into my wholly contributory public sector pension - a damn sight more than the zero per month contributed by the striking INEOS(private sector)workers who held the country to ransom a couple of months ago.
14

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 00:31:36
#13

I know. Trust me. I just want to see if AM2 has the cahonees to actually provide a reasoned anwer in this thread. What do you think. Yes or no ?
15

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 00:32:41
12 Div

Your getting angry now. Time to log on as David Banks and start spamming.

You are right by the way. I agree with you that the SNP are as bad as Labour when it comes to failing to deliver promises or policy.

By the way, I gave Islam as much focus as Salmon'd famous Scottish sausage eating photo. Bot a waste of money. Or sign changes.

"The money's there, so let's waste it." SNP/Labour hybrid mantra.
16

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 00:35:27
15

Actually you don't know what you are talking about.

The reason Standar & poor governmental credit rating agency threatening to downgrade Britain to "sub-investment" status was due to our private sector pension bill. £700 billion deficit and rising.

Where are YOU getting your facts from?

£30,000 pension bill for every household in UK. And guess what? the 50% who are due the money in the public sector won't be paying a damned penny towards their own upkeep.

75% of your council tax goes on pensions. Same thing with direct taxation for police. Just goes out the door on early retirements.
17

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 00:35:39
#17

Classic retort from a desparate person afraid to address the facts.

(1) Your islamaphobia is indeed distasteful to many.

(2) You did not address the question put, namely

"Can you advise how many liebour/unionist manifesto commitments have been broken in the last 50 years ? Or even in the Fib Dem/Liebore government from 1999 - 2007 in holyrood ? No ? Quelle surpriese. Not."

The fact you ignore (2) simply shows you have no answer. Prove me wrong and post a substantive response to this, or troll off somewhere else.
18

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 00:36:36
19 private sector pension bill should be *public*.

Public sector pensions ARE bankrupting Britain. That is a fact.
19

,

12/08/2008 00:37:24
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20

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 00:37:40
#19. So kitch (says it all frankly)

"75% of your council tax goes on pensions. Same thing with direct taxation for police. Just goes out the door on early retirements"

Source ?

21

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 00:37:41
20

I don't need to disporve you. I agree with you. Labour and the SNP are both dismal when it comes to competant governance or delivering promises/policy.
22

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 00:38:32
24

Source is Telegraph. Yesterday's edition. Google it yourself.
23

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 00:40:08
No, 25, you dodge the question well. I did not ask if the SNP or liebore were "dismal when it comes to competant governance or delivering promises/policy."

I asked you

"Can you advise how many liebour/unionist manifesto commitments have been broken in the last 50 years ? Or even in the Fib Dem/Liebore government from 1999 - 2007 in holyrood ? No ? Quelle surpriese. Not"

Any answer ?
24

,

12/08/2008 00:40:11
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25

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 00:40:41
#26

Nothing found. Post the article here if it exists.
26

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 00:41:18
#32

Don't spam please. Leave it to the hootsman mods. Cheers.
27

Teofilio Cubillas,

12/08/2008 00:43:02
#7

This current issue was not entirely predictable and nor has it been discussed for ten months as it was only announced a couple of months ago by Jacqui Smith. There are two issues with police pensions - one the demographic blip caused by the huge increase in recruiting in the late seventies following the Edmond Davies report - this has been foreseen for many years now and is probably what you are referring to.

The new issue, made public only in May, and the one central to the new funding crisis is the increase in the amount of lump-sum payments that officers may commute on retirement. This was increased as officers (in line with the rest of the population) are living longer. It saves money in the long term (as officers take the one-off payment rather than risk dying before breaking even on the alternative higher pension)but in the short term it is more difficult to fund.
28

,

12/08/2008 00:43:29
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29

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 00:44:39
AM2

"The SNP’s sums have never added up – not on independence"

Promote sensible discussion. List your examples, open the debate to rebuttal. If you have the nerve.

If not, any other unionists care to do so ? And before doing so, remember all the broken manifesto commitments from you for the last 50 years.

Expect a deafening silence from AM2/unionists.
30

,

12/08/2008 00:45:15
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,

12/08/2008 00:46:08
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32

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 00:46:42
#55

Feeccck off spammer.

Come on mods, u can do better. Surely you are not allowing this because you have no counter argument ?
33

,

12/08/2008 00:46:52
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34

AM2,

Scotland,UK 12/08/2008 00:47:19
#56

It's off-topic, but you could start here:
http://www.cppr.ac.uk/media/media_86366_en.pdf
35

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 00:47:41
AM2

See #56

Any response ?
36

,

12/08/2008 00:47:41
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37

,

12/08/2008 00:48:23
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38

AM2,

Scotland,UK 12/08/2008 00:48:43
#58 Doonhamer

I'm not supporting Soup Kitchen. The Islam remarks, for example, are distasteful.
39

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 00:48:48
AM2

Link at your #62 not working. Post the text here if you have no problem sharing the debate/
40

,

12/08/2008 00:49:03
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41

,

12/08/2008 00:49:29
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42

,

12/08/2008 00:49:51
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43

,

12/08/2008 00:50:15
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44

,

12/08/2008 00:50:34
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45

,

12/08/2008 00:50:40
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46

AM2,

Scotland,UK 12/08/2008 00:50:48
#75

Use top link on this page:
http://www.cppr.ac.uk/centres/cppr/analysisofthescottisheconomy/
47

,

12/08/2008 00:50:52
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48

walter,

12/08/2008 00:50:54
#8, 12
Btw, if the SNP are so useless accodring to you, how come less than a third of those eligible to vote last holyrood elections supported the unionists ?

But that was double what the nationalist got.

Or even in the Fib Dem/Liebore government from 1999 - 2007 in holyrood ? No ? Quelle surpriese. Not.

What are you saying? the Labour, Lib/Dem exclusive did not deliver all their manifesto promises so it is alright for the SNP not to deliver all of theirs.
That makes them no different from the last lot then, promises made to get the votes then once they have the vote the promises are broken.
49

,

12/08/2008 00:51:10
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50

,

12/08/2008 00:51:31
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51

,

12/08/2008 00:51:32
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52

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 00:51:42
74 AM2

How is it distasteful to say that Police numbers are more important than giving money to Islam?

That is a valid opinion. I can think the idea of god is stupid if I want to. Perfectly valid opinion.

Politically correct brain-dead zombies walk amongst us. £400,000 for Islam when we can't afford to replace retiring police officers? Laughable.

Who needs the money more? Allah/God or a victim of domestic abuse on this planet?

Wake up and stop the PC nonsense.
53

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 00:52:56
AM2

Thanks for link at #82, but that not working. Post it here for us all to see. You're not coming over all coy on us, are you ?
54

,

12/08/2008 00:54:01
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55

AM2,

Scotland,UK 12/08/2008 00:54:07
#87

The debate isn't being "lost" by unionists. It's being drowned out.

That's not the same thing at all.
56

AM2,

Scotland,UK 12/08/2008 00:55:09
#90

The link is working.
57

,

12/08/2008 00:57:34
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58

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 00:59:08
#84

You need to wake up and smell the coffee.

Holyrood results as percentage of eligible voters:

No vote - 51%.

In additon. The SNP govt is elected for four years. It cannot be expected to deliver all in a year any more than any government ever has. All other UK govts have broken a multitude of promises over many years. That was my point.

It is hypocritical to say the SNP have not delivered all of their government programme in a fraction of their time elected to government. That's my point. Got it yet ?

Unionists - 32% (of which liebore got half, eg 16%)

SNP - 17%

Thus. Less than 1/3rd of the eligible voters supported the union. Fact. Sorry, but true.
59

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 01:01:04
AM2

The link does not appear to be working, but post the content here anyway if you have nothing to be concerned about in terms of the content. And in terms of your #93, join me in condemming such practices.
60

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 01:01:31
#99
61

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 01:01:54
#100 for independence, waiting on an answer from AM2
62

AM2,

Scotland,UK 12/08/2008 01:05:19
#96

Delusional nonsense.

#98

The links are both working. The PDF file is too lengthy. Yes of course.

But this thread has descended into farce. Enough. Goodnight.
63

,

12/08/2008 01:07:16
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64

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 01:10:00
OK AM2. But the other posters know the link does not work, and are not fooled by a typical

"But this thread has descended into farce. Enough. Goodnight."

Shame. I would welcome real comment from you to enliven the debate and to enable a realistic exchange of views. But as you do not wish to engage readers can only surmise it is because you have some fear of posting the content. Big PDF ? Non existant more like.

Prove me wrong and post it and no doubt many will reply. Coose not to and expose yourself as a coward. Up to you.
65

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 01:13:59
#102

No.

Here's the electoral options.

Support independence - 17% (SNP)

No Vote - 51%

Vote for parties explicitly pro union - 32%, half of which were liebore.

I don't think they are loonies or that I was harsh - I respect their right to vote for the union - but they are nonetheless a minority in fact.
66

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 01:19:42
105

You are either pretty stupid or a bit of a dud when it comes to trolling.

How can there be two views opposing each other and no third option where the option carrying the most votes is in the minority as a point of "fact"?

What do you think about the 1,000 extra police officers?

As the SNP are adding about 8 more than are retiring a year, could be about a century before Scotland's "top priority is delivered, eh?

Do you think the SNP will EVER deliver on it?
67

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 01:20:26
Dividend

I notice how you avoid the question I asked you at 106.

Coward.
68

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 01:21:18
I'm still waiting...

(He's probably run away because the SNP are lising the argument on teh police debate.)
69

,

12/08/2008 01:25:35
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70

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 01:28:02
109

I see you are still avoiding the question.

What is your opinion on the SNP's ablility to deliver 1,000 extra police? And when do you think they will have delivered it by?
71

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 01:28:25
Tool @ #105

"the option carrying the most votes is in the minority as a point of "fact"?"

The unionists scored less than 1/3rd of support from those eligible to vote. Last time I looked, 1.3rd was not a majority.

How many parties in uk or scottish history have ever delivered on all their manifesto in a year ? How many promises broken by liebore uk wide post 1997 or in scotland with the fibdems 1999 - 07 ? Don't be shy now......
72

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 01:29:49
Oohhh. lets play you at your own game, so kitch.

No answer yet to #111 ?
73

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 01:30:16
Or hasn't AM" given you the answer yet, tool ?
74

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 01:32:13
Hey, S(t)oup(id) Bitchin

Still waiting. Off to bed soon. Pick up your answers this evening if u have any...
75

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 01:32:38
111

You are pretty stupid when it comes to working out a majority.

I notice you are still avoiding he question. I don't think you will ever answer, nor will the SNP.

The SNP are still acting like they are in opposition. A bit like Labour have for 10 years, Labour are still bleating on about Thatcher 15-20 years later. The SNP will be the same as Labour.
76

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 01:35:36
Let me put it another way dividend.

When, in your opinion, will it be okay for me to critice the SNP for failing to deliver 1,000 polive extra police officers?

It takes 1 year to train them up apparantly. The SNP are 18 months in, so... if they haven;t got 1,000 extra into the system in 18 months time then they have definately failed.

Do you think they will make it? I don't, nor does Scotland.
77

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 01:36:33
111.

A Majority is the party with the largest share of the vote.

Last holyrood:

SNP 17%

Liebore 16%

Other unionists - 16%

No vote - 51%


The SNP were the single biggest party with no party overall having a moajority. This gives them the same, if not bigger, democratic legitimacy as a uk liebore govt elected on less than the SNP's proportionate share of the electorate (16% of all uk voters went liebore last uk electionvs 17% SNP holyrood).

Next point tool ?

I might even stay up a bit later, you are so much fun.
78

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 01:39:43
#116

The answer to your question is, it will be fine at the end of their period in govt and when you acknowledge all the manifesto promises broken by liebore over 50 years in scottish local govt and 8 yrs 99 - 07 at holyrood, as opposed to 1 year of the SNP.

Keep going tool, you're only building votes for independence. Haven't had so much fun in ages...
79

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 01:40:55
117

I think you meant "A majority is the largest share of the vote."

Majority has nothing to do with a party. " 2. (in an election) the number of votes or seats by which the strongest party or candidate beats the combined opposition or the runner-up"

Note the use of the word combined. Honestly, you need a brain.


Why are you spamming this thread? Gonnae just answer the questions put to you on 1,000 extra police or get lost.
80

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 01:44:43
#119

What a cheek.

I am not spamming. The answer to your question on the police is clear at #118, viz they will deliver over the period they are elected for.

As for you, answer how many manifesto commitments busted by liebore 1999 - 07 holyrood, or over the 50 years of their scottish hegemony prior to this period. No ? Says it all.

Face it. I know it hurts. But - last holyrood, liebore got less votes than the SNP. And not even a third of the electorate supported the unionist parties.

Spin all you like, these are the facts.
81

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 01:46:56
120

Maybe you can explain yourself a bit better.

Why is the SNP waiting to deliver Scotland's top priority? You, like the SNP, seem to think delaying providing essential police is acceptable to the electorate. It is not.

The SNP will never deliver 1,000 extra police.
82

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 01:52:05
Soup.

You are fixated by the police issue.

The SNP govt are a year or so in to a period of govt with several years to run.

Liebore failed to deliver many manifesto commitments 1999 - 07 to date, and in the preceding 50 years on a uk basis.

There is more to politics in this country than the police issue. The SNP will deliver, I hope, in the course of this minority government, But if they cannot, will you decry them in the same way you decry all the broken liebore promises over many decades ?

See, this is where your argument fails and where people see you for the single issue tool that you are. 1 issue in 1 year criticism of the SNP; tens of dozens over 50 years of liebore. Give it up, peanutbrain....
83

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 02:00:29
122

The police was identified by Scotland as its "top priority". Salmond is on the record as saying it is his "top priority" because it is "Scotland's top priority".

I would expect any government, with the notable exceptions of the SNP or Labour, to deliver their top priority within 2 years of taking power.

The reason the SNP haven't reallocated funds, made arrangements, started the recruitment procedures is because they are not committed to delivering what they promised.

But they found £500,000 for new signs saying government not excecutive and new staionery IMMEDIATELY.

Funny that.
84

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 02:07:26
#123, Soooping from the well of desperation

"I would expect any government, with the notable exceptions of the SNP or Labour, to deliver their top priority within 2 years of taking power."

They haven't been in power 2 years yet ya total daftie.

The unionists have less than 1/3rd support of all eligible voters.

No answer at all to any of the above. You are so dim, I nearly hesitated before putting this next bit in. But. You really are a totallydimunionistaapologistafannie. aren't you ?

Night now, see you later today if you are daft enough to reply. Chube.

How many promises busted by liebore 1999 - 07 holyrood, or over the 50 years of their scottish hegemony prior to this period. No answer. Ya utterly deluded total daftie.
85

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 02:35:00
124

Your squalid, snivelling, swivel-eyed approach to Scottish politics is typical of the SNP/Labour hybrid that is wrecking Scotland.

Bang on about some "top priority" and then get into power and say "monyana monyana" like some greasy businesman from the third world.

People are dying from drugs, living in fear and your only message to them is relax, the SNP will deliver at some point and if they don't, then so what, they are only as bad as Labour.

You sir, are typical of the Labour/SNP hybrid. Let me guess you used to vote Labour, but now it's the SNP.

I never voted for Labour. Most SNP numbskulls have. You don't think the rise in the SNP's popularity comes from the educated Lib-Dem/Tory voters, do you?
86

Guga II,

Rockall 12/08/2008 03:25:39
#3 Soup for Brains.

If you're going to move abroad, do it quickly. We'll all come and wave you off. Take AM Squared with you too.
87

Guga II,

Rockall 12/08/2008 03:28:29
As for the police, they should be made to work till they're 65, the same as the rest of the population. they can use the older, fatter and unfitter ones for office work, answering the phones, running the canteens, washing the cars etc. That would save the taxpayers a fortune.
88

calum,

12/08/2008 06:08:41
What the article doesn't say is that this has come about because women were paid a much higher pension than men and the pension entitlements have now been equalised.
Jackie Smith, who did not award the Police down south their annual pay award but delayed it for 2 months to save money, is getting her own back at Kenny MacAskill and the SNP who awarded the police in Scotland their annual pay award immediately. Quid pro quo.
89

Phil C,

12/08/2008 07:30:41
I see the Soup Dragon is clanging his vitriol again. What is it with unionists and the 1000 police officers- a policy which is being carried out slowly but surely? It shouldn't be top priority for a minority administration when restricted by Westminster, yet every day on here the rabid unionistas foam at the mouth as if we have some massive issue with police numbers.

In the case of Strathclyde the problem is again pensions and 'black holes'. Guess who is responsible? Look no further than the Labour government and the FSA.
90

tommy M,

12/08/2008 07:50:13
Another evil attempt by westminster to thwart the success and strategies of our scottish government. I for one cannot wait until we are an independent nation, governing all of our own affairs and never have to put up with this malice and meddling to the detriment of the Scottish people again.
It's time.
91

mr angry,

ayrshire 12/08/2008 08:08:29
The whole point of the matter is that it is reserved to Westminster who approved the higher payments but as stated have refused to give the Scottish Government any additional funding to pay for it.
Just another labour ploy to try and damage the SNP, they do not even try to hide it nowadays.
They are witholding Scotland's pocket money to show us who is the boss and to reprimand us for voting SNP.
92

Linda,

Edinburgh 12/08/2008 09:23:15
The Lib Dems should return the £2.4 millions they received from this tax exile who was not on the electoral roll in UK, who has left many creditors and had a very dubious criminal record before he gave this money to Lib Dems.

Read The Times Online report of 27 October 2005
Mr Brown has a record of run-ins with police over complaints of cheque fraud. Courthouse documents give his status as "absconder/fugitive".
93

walter,

12/08/2008 09:41:36
Did Salmond not tell the Scottish police federation conference at the end of 2006 that there was £78 million for these new police.
Les Gray, chairman of the Strathclyde branch of the federation, questioned Salmond to ensure there was no misunderstanding, Les Gray said "I questioned him (Salmond) to clarify what he was saying. He said it wasn't an empty promise and if that was not enough, he could even look at bringing in more new officers.
The SNP have allocated £54 million for police recruiting in their budget.
I do not know what the police already had allocated but the £78m was promised for the 1000 more officers and if if they have only allocated £54m all in then there is £24m plus that has not been allocated.
Why do the SNP not use that instead of going cap in hand to Westminster.
94

Alan B,

12/08/2008 09:55:22
"Police pay and conditions are decided at Westminster, so the Scottish Government has little choice but to approve the changes"

What an absolutely ridiculous situation. The scottish parliament needs complete control of policing not just bits of it. We really need to clear up the mess that devolution has caused.

A power should either be with westminster or scottish parliament not this current situation were bits are here and there.

An underlying problem aswell is the failure of Brown to fully fund public sector pensions, unlike the private sector which he brought in rules to make sure they were fully funded. All he has done is defer pension costs to future governments with the tab to be picked up be us. It is completely irresponsible.

On the matter of police. I think we need to look at alternatives to retiring the police early. That would probably involve reassigning them to non front line duties.

An wider underlying problem is. When you work longer you tend to get more money. What we need to come to terms with is people should earn more in their prime working ages and then allow salaries to reduce as one winds down.
95

Scottish 'N British,

12/08/2008 10:05:16
Oh dear.

Another contentious issue for the SNP and, surprise, surprise, another attempt to stifle debate. I wonder if there's a connexion there?

Anyway, as this issue has been in dicussion for yonks, it has to go down as yet another example of the SNP picking fights with Westminster.

Clearly Swinney preferred not to budget for the increase. Then again, he didn't budget for his manifesto promises, did he?

96

Miss H,

12/08/2008 10:10:47
136 It's not contentious seeing that the blame can be laid firmly with Westminster.

It's a gift.
97

walter,

12/08/2008 10:14:40
#97
Unionists - 32% (of which liebore got half, eg 16%)

SNP - 17%

Thus. Less than 1/3rd of the eligible voters supported the union. Fact. Sorry, but true.

Thus, just over 1/6th of the eligible voters supported Independence. Fact. Sorry but true.

Wrong, neither your statement is fact or true nor mine.
You are typical of the nats, you try take the vote for individual parties and mix them with the vote for the unionist parties collectively to suit your own agenda.
The only true fact in the figures you are producing is that the unionist collectively received more votes that the nationalists and the nationalist received more votes that any of the unionist parties individually.
98

Miss H,

12/08/2008 10:15:07
123 You flatter yourself in imagining that you are intellectually superior to people who vote Labour or SNP. Your suggestion that police should be deployed before they have been trained demonstrates that you are actually a bit thick.
99

Balliol II,

Dunbar 12/08/2008 10:15:10
Coming back to public service pensions for a moment - I spent most of my employed life in employment where there was a pension fund administered by local government. The retirement age was 65 not 60 as some posters claim. I contributed 8% of my salary and my empoyers 6%. If the superannuation funds are now in deficit it suggests that contributions are too low and should be increased. Also the majority of my colleagues received lower pay than the private sector. This may have changed but it was the case.
100

Miss H,

12/08/2008 10:16:12
138 But the SNP still won. Please please please get over it.
101

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 10:18:52
139 Miss H

Not so.

The SNP government should be administratively good. The word "minister" is derived from administrator.

The SNP have had power long enough to have put costed and sounds plans in place for delivering the 1,000 extra police. But they haven't.

The SNP are no further forward with Scotland's "top priority" than they were 18 months ago. They are just flapping in the wind.

Miss H, when will 1,000 have been delivered by? Have the SNP told us?
102

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 10:22:31
Miss H

It must make even blind followers like yourself wonder... "what have they been doing for a year and a half?"

Getting their photos taken eating Scottish sausages. I think I saw Nicola Sturgeon riding a bycycle once outside the parliamanet. They think they are c list celebrities and their to endorse rubbish? The SNP want to n!p that in the bud and start doing the prioritised work.

Maybe start with the top priority.
103

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 10:30:41
How would a normal person explain that to their boss?

Top priority for your business/customers is to deliver 1,000 extra police officers.

Your boss leaves you to work unsupervised and comes back 18 months later.

You have spent the budget money on stationery, signage, religious festivals and new slogans.

You went to photo-shoots with sausages and even left your desk to ride a bycycle around outside your place of work for an afternoon.

How would your bosses respond?
104

ochone,

Sauchie, clack's 12/08/2008 10:37:27
I doubt if it will have escaped the notice of the majority of folk who read these posts but don't contribute any, that this story seems to be based on comments from a Labour cllr and the Scotsman itself, so the comments will of course be totally unbiased and it was most likely just a memory lapse that caused the cllr to forget to mention the part played by the Westminster government.

No doubt they will also have noticed that the contributions of unionists who post here have gone in the last few months from hope to shear desperation.

With any luck they will keep it up
105

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 10:37:44
#138, walter

"Unionists - 32% (of which liebore got half, eg 16%)

SNP - 17%

Thus. Less than 1/3rd of the eligible voters supported the union. Fact. Sorry, but true.

Thus, just over 1/6th of the eligible voters supported Independence. Fact. Sorry but true.

Wrong, neither your statement is fact or true nor mine."

Both facts are true. The results: 17% SNP Unionists 32% (Liebore got 16%, tories and fibdums the other 16%). 51% no vote. Google "Holyrood election results 2007" if you like. No spin here unlike your desperate attempt.

The SNP got 17% support from all eligible to vote. They do not claim to be in the majority but are working towards that aim.

The unionists on the other hand claim to be in the majority. With only a third of the electorate supporting unionist parties this is an outright lie.

Sorry you haven't got over holyrood 2007 or indeed glasgow east 2008, but them there's the facts. Get over it and start trying to persuade the 51% non voters to back your minority unionist position, though with two of the three main unionist parties having no leader you might find it hard just now.
106

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 10:41:13
#144

Still fixed on the police and no answer on all the tens of dozens of manifesto promises busted by the unionists over the centuries.

I'll say it nice and slow for you as you are so challenged.

The SNP govt still has at least half it's term to deliver this manifesto commitment. Using your boss analogy, if you go to your boss and promise to deliver something in a period of time - say four years - then you get the four years to deliver it.

Do you get it yet ? No ?

Do you want any number of unionist pledges that were broken listed ?

Dearie me. Care in the community clearly isn't working in your case.
107

Alan B,

12/08/2008 10:43:46
Scotland really needs fiscal autonomy now to sort out the mess of the funding arrangements for the scottish parliament.

If the uk government needs abit extra cash they can borrow or alter taxes. The scottish government just has to hope the taxation polcies of the uk government are in line with its thinking. It is ridiculous.

With the tories you tend to get lower taxes over a period of time. With labour considerably higher. This obviously effects revenues particularly in the short term. All the scottish parliament can do is sit and watch and then find out how much money it can spend after its budget is set by westminster. This really is a silly situation.

108

Scottish 'N British,

12/08/2008 10:44:38
137

There is no gift. Not that this will stop Salmond's begging bowl antics. Another example of the Scottish cringe.

141

By that token, when will it dawn on Separatists that the SNP won the election and act like a party in government?



109

Scottish 'N British,

12/08/2008 10:46:07
147

The timescales on scrapping things like student debt and prescription charges were unequivcal and to be immediate, not weasley-worded and staggered over a parliament.
110

Scottish 'N British,

12/08/2008 10:49:16
120

The SNP polled 33% support of those who bothered to vote - it was around 18% if one considers that half the people didnae vote/couldnae vote.

Nae mandate.
111

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 10:50:39
Dividend

You're failing to grasp of this SNP failure.

The SNP are half way through their term, I agree. It takes a quarter of that term to train police officers. Approx 1 year.

That means the SNP must have funding and capacity in the system to train an extra 1,000 police on top of those replacing retiree's with the next 12 months.

The SNP are no further forward, they should know by now how they are gong to deliver and when. The electorate is entitled to an update and we should be in the delivery stage now.

Scotland is not delivering police. The bunch of c-list celebrities that are in power are to busy endorsing products, giving teaser interviews for forthcoming blue sky featurettes, touring the world, having parties and so on...

The SNP have failed to deliver a top priority. There is no point in having a team of administrators that cannot prioritise work and work unsupervised. Spotty Assistant managers should have these skills.

The SNP need to get back to a Labout skillz academy and retrain.
112

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 10:53:04
There can be no argument for independence under the SNP until they develop the skills to prioritise work and work unsupervised.

I am glad the SNP have supervision at Westminster if they don't have enough gumption to deliver Scotland's top priority.

Sausages and bycycling are best left for the circus.
113

HughB,

Edinburgh 12/08/2008 11:02:32
This was entirely predictable.

First of all, it was Browne and co who raided the pension funds, leaving them short changed when the economy went downhill.

Secondly, the Westminster Government will do everything in their power to undermine the democratically elected Government in Scotland.

How can you hope to manage a countries affairs when outside influences are cooking the books to strip assets and reduce budgets at every opportunity. It just doesn't work.

Can nobody else see this. Surely even the unionists have to be sensible and agree that this "arrangement" just doesn't work.

Time for full fiscal autonomy. It's the only way.
114

Rufus T. Firefly,

12/08/2008 11:02:55
Hey Soup Kitchen, why are you so worried about this rather unfortunate and undelivered police manifesto pledge?

400K is being provided for an Islamfest. Thats a great use of our taxes.

For that cash I will be looking to see the Stones appearing and Pink Floyd reforming.
115

Rufus T. Firefly,

12/08/2008 11:05:13
Who cares about 1000 extra police as long as we get our chessmen back and Scotland gets its own entry in the Eurovision Song Contest.

All worthwhile causes, I am sure you will agree, pursued by the SNP.
116

Rufus T. Firefly,

12/08/2008 11:06:23
Who cares about 1000 extra police as long as we can get the saltire flying higher than the Union Jack on Edinburgh Castle.

Another worthwhile cause, I am sure you will agree, pursued by the SNP.
117

Alan B,

12/08/2008 11:07:16
#144 Soup kitchen

The clear problem with your analysis is they have said they would increase the police numbers over the course of the parliament.

Turning your senario round. How would you like to agree with your boss a target to be met over the course of a set period in time. Your boss then pulls you up and judges you have not met your target after only a short period of time. That is just silly.

The government have set some targets and we can judge them and how they have done over that period. When we judge them we can take all things into account.

How did they do compared to the predecessors? How do we rate them compared to the alternatives? Have they achieve what they said they would try to do? How close are they to achieving ie are the going in the right direction? How do we rate their basic competence? For things they do not achieve are there good reasons? Do they learn from their mistakes?

For me there are policies i support from them and others i do not. On balance the policies i support outweigh the policies i disagree with. This is largely becuase they are the only party that truely understands the importance of having powers at the scottish parliament. The other parties have been dragged to that position.

On competence they appear far better than labour who were dreadful. That could be from the mess they made of higher still implementation when they failed to mark exams. The failure to address scotland economic problems (slow growth) with the architect of their own strategy slagging of its implementation. The failure in transport shown by the failure to sign a basic document for a road toll. Or the mess they made over hospital closures with their own partner the lib dems admitting they got it wrong. While the tories were bad for scotland they showed little of the sheer incompetence that we saw from labour.

As for achieving goals. We will have to see. I think they have found themselves in the unfortunate situation of taking over
118

Alan B,

12/08/2008 11:07:35
cont..


As for achieving goals. We will have to see. I think they have found themselves in the unfortunate situation of taking over at a time when labour have given scotland the lowest "increase" in the history of the parliament. A 0.5% increase in the first yr based on an inflation rate that we know is an underestimate so could be argued as a real cut ie (is it lower than rpi inflation which is well over 4%). They also have to content with a spiteful labour government in london diverting much attention with their attempts to stop the scottish government/parliament implementing its policies eg by withholding council tax rebate money. Or withholding prision money that scotland should get as a barnett consequentials. We also have to recognise the consquences of a minority government when they correctly backed down over the trams when out numbered in the scottish parliament. Obviously that is money they would have rather spent elsewhere.

finally, will they learn from mistakes. Lets face it everyone makes them. We will have to see. What we do know is the tories did not and found themselves wiped out in scotland. Labour have not and we can see that with the mess of labour both sides of the border, particularly with the corruption scandals and failure to deal with them after all they said before being elected.
119

Nikostratos,

12/08/2008 11:08:41
#147 What is the Union Dividend anyway

well at least you've proved that you don't and probably never have worked in the 'Real Economy'

lets use you analogy''right boss i can give you increased production over four years.
(boss)-great

i year later (boss)- any more production yet

(wud)na but in another three years

2 years later (boss)- any more production yet

(wud)na but in another two years

3 years later (boss)- any more production yet

(wud)na but in another year

(boss) tell you what union divee...YOUR FIRED








120

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 11:09:22
Rufus

I would laugh, if it weren't true.

How can you argue for independence when you can't even prioritise your in-tray?

I mean you would fail a thorough job interview for a junior training place without the skills to prioritise.
121

Rufus T. Firefly,

12/08/2008 11:10:50
More Gaelic Tv is needed along with a ban on England football matches being shown North of the Border.

The SNP have their finger on the pulse as you can see.

Just as well we have no issues with Knife Crime, obesity rates, kids leaving school who cannot read or write, people dying in hospital because of C-diff etc.

At least the Forth Road Bridge is free now as well.

A populist government? Never!
122

Alan B,

12/08/2008 11:11:13
#Soup kitchen

"There can be no argument for independence under the SNP until they develop the skills to prioritise work and work unsupervised."

Under that logic their is no argument for the union given the performance of labour and before that the tories.
123

Rufus T. Firefly,

12/08/2008 11:12:45
Soup Kitchen, as usual you are spot on, as is Niko.
124

Jimmy Le Pie,

12/08/2008 11:16:54
#164.

Why are you talking to yourself???

Usually an early sign of insanity!!
125

Jimmy Le Pie,

12/08/2008 11:23:35
#164

you also have to be very careful switching monikers.

Highland Mighty/ British Pride made a complete ar$e of himself as you will inevitably will do.

Mind you looking at the drivel you write, you could be HM/BP???
126

Miss H,

12/08/2008 11:33:39
152 The SNP are not halfway through their term. They were elected in May 2007. The next elections will be held in May 2011. This is August 2008.
127

Miss H,

12/08/2008 11:33:39
152 The SNP are not halfway through their term. They were elected in May 2007. The next elections will be held in May 2011. This is August 2008.
128

Miss H,

12/08/2008 11:35:50
149 Oh it is a gift. With enemies like Jacqui Smith the SNP don't need friends.

All that is needed now is for the equivalent rise in England to be funded centrally.

Then it will be a gift wrapped up with a pretty pink ribbon!
129

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 11:42:29
171 Miss H

You are so full of spite. You want Labout to create a situation where there are no plice to protect Scottish citizens?

You would see your fellow man stabbed, beaten, stolen from, insulted so that you can score a few political points with those small-minded enough to care?

This is what is wrong with Scotland. Labour versus SNP, it is professional agitator v professional agitator. No-one actually doing any work or hoping for positive outcomes.

Miss H you should be ashamed of yourself for such thoughts.

If there are not 1,000 extra police recruited withint the next 18 months, the SNP will have failed. This failure will be theirs alone, as it the SNP's responsibility to budget and reallocate funds to achieve Scotland's top priority.

But with SNP/Labour being what they are, they will argue in the columns of the tabloids while crime runs amock.
130

subrosa,

12/08/2008 11:52:30
# 123
'The reason the SNP haven't reallocated funds, made arrangements, started the recruitment procedures is because they are not committed to delivering what they promised.'

You're a blatant liar. You know full well that this is untrue. We've had this discussed last week and you're still refusing to accept the evidence that 125 new police recruits passed out from Tullieallan last month.

Auch I cannae be doing with liars.


131

brownlie,

12/08/2008 12:02:31
Soup Kitchen aka Ciderman/Paisley Pete/Dane
advised me to stop posting yesterday as my posts are "boring".

I decided to follow his advice and looked forward to a scintillating and stimulating contribution from him on the issues of the day.

Sadly, he has lived up to my expectations and I can see where he got his idea of being boring from. His arguements are repeatedly demolished but he keeps on with his tedious and rather illiterate rants.

Two key sentences from the article are:

"Police pay and conditions are decided at Westminster so the Scottish Government has little choice but to approve the changes"

and

"Last month Yvette Cooper, Chief Secretary to the Treasury wrote to Finance Minister John Swinney rejecting an appeal for £48m to meet the ADDITIONAL pension costs".

That is the problem in a nutshell. The UK government has to make the additional funding available in the rest of the UK but refuse to do so in Scotland.
132

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 12:02:38
173 Subrosa

Yes, we hade that discussion. Those police are just replacing those retiring.

The policy is to have 1,000 "extra". Which of course the SNP aren't working towards.
133

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 12:06:28
175 Brownlie

You are a bit stupid. The fact pay and conditions are set at westminster is IRRELEVANT.

Here, I will help you and do a primary school example.

Peter has £100; Apples cost £1 and Oranges cost £1 in year 1 and peter buys 50 Apples and 50 Oranges.

Peter promises to buy 10 more apples in year 2 as a priosity. How many Oranges can he buy in year 2 assuming the budget is the same.

Is that helping?

The SNP promised 1,000 more police. They need to deliver that by reallocating funds to our "top priority".

I know you are an agitator, but blaming others isn't good enough.
134

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 12:21:01
141 Hoots

Here are some examples of how to prioritise when you realise the costs per unit of policemen are going up.

- Cut back on chessmen campaigns
- Stop funding foreign religions
- Cancel all state photography seshions with sausages
- Ask your health secretary to stop cycling about outside the workplace
- Cut back on non-essentials like building signs, statioery with fancy letterheads.
- Stop New York Junketts for First Ministers who like to grand stand.
- Cancel all action adventure holidays for violent criminals.

There are some things that the SNP have gotten right.

- Cancel student debt pledge... okay it's not top priority.
- Cancel prescription charge abolotition... okay, it's not top priority.


I was suprised that the SNP cancelled health and education pledges before they scrapped other things. And they STILL couldn't find the cash for the "top priority"?

Maybe the SNP should just be given their work one thing at a time from a manager that supervises closely.

Here is 1,000 police pledge sonny, do that first and we can use the change to do the second pledge...

Maybe that would help them, I don't think the SNP ministers have ever had real jobs so lack any meaningful work experience. Giving speeches and having rants isn't work.
135

brownlie,

12/08/2008 12:27:08
140 Paisley Pete

Is being "a bit stupid" better than being "boring" as you seem to be an authority on both?

I made no reference to additional police. I was referring to the article on which we are posting and pointing out that additional payments for police pensions will be made available to the rest of the UK but not to Scotland.

Why do you think that the UK Government have taken this stance along with similar action regarding replacement of prisons?

Do you think they would have taken this action if the previous LIB/LAB coalition was in power?

Do you think that any independent observer would regard this as fair and just?
136

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 12:27:29
143 Hoots

The part you don't understand is that it's irrelevant.

If the SNP had made a pledge that said £10,000,000 extra funding for front line police officers then you could argue that it is Labour's fault for the slight drop in units that fictitious pledge buys.

But the SNP promised 1,000 units delivered. It is their responsibility to raise the funds or allocate the funds. If they need more funding they have tax rainsing powers.

What part of having our First Minister photographed with a sausage is a waste of time and money don't you understand?
137

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 12:50:28
Hoots

Re Glasgow East...

Seems you are making the mistake of judging me by your own standards. I am not a zealous political nutter like yourself and was happy to see the SNP take control of Glasgow East from Labour. Literally anyone would have done, it was a pleasure to watch Labour get embarassed again.

I am not really for or against independence with any great passion. I just hate professional agitators like the SNP/Labour, so will NEVER vote for independence or consider it until Labour/SNP get some grown ups involved.
138

Davie from Irvine,

Aul Irvine Burgh Ayrshire coast 12/08/2008 12:55:11
Soup Kitchen, for those of us who read your posts yesterday before they were taken down to read your last paragraph on post 151 about grown ups.
139

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 13:04:34
153

Ah yes, Tommy Sheridan, the one man in Scottish politics who can outdo Salmond in uncosted/undeliverable rubbish.

I bet Salmond and the SNP have their eye on nicking the "free football season ticket" pledges. The solution is so elegant, the one many in ten who actually works for a living just buys tickets for everyone.
140

Scottish 'N British,

12/08/2008 13:23:07
144

Salmnod is being criticised not because he was expected to have had it all done in 1 year but because when he launched his manifesto promises he made no indication that it would take 4 years.

BTW, Salmnod knew he'd be in a minority situation, even if he did win. We know that cos its the way the parliament is set up.

Salmnod also knew what the financial settlement would be. As did Livingstone, the Welsh and the Northern Irish.

Salmond knew that the CT benefit wouldn't happen if he wasn't collecting, er, CT.

Yet he still mucked it up.

He has 4 years to get it right.

141

Scottish 'N British,

12/08/2008 13:28:13
155

Please make your mind up.

Last I heard the SNP were cuddling up to the Lib Dems, nooadays, to get Swinney's CA-LIT through.
142

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/08/2008 13:50:18
#7 AM2

If you are so good at predicting things, how come you failed to predict the current price of oil and the consequent revenues pouring into the treasury.

All last year you were predicting an all time low for oil revenues. You got that so badly wrong, I don't think you are in a position to predict whether the SNP's independence numbers stack up or not.
143

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/08/2008 13:52:33
#157 Funny that. Only yesterday Alex Salmond was saying how glad he was, in retrospect, that the SNP failed to form a coalition with the LDs.

Hardly the words of someone who wants to cuddle up.
144

Davie from Irvine,

Auld Irvine Burgh Ayrshire coast 12/08/2008 13:53:17
157 Scottish,N British, you know full well that any minority administration has to negotiate with other members to get legislation through, and it so happens that LIT has long been Lib Dem and SNP policy, so there is common ground between them on this one.
145

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/08/2008 13:53:48
#156 British

Quote:

"Salmnod is being criticised not because he was expected to have had it all done in 1 year but because when he launched his manifesto promises he made no indication that it would take 4 years."

You cannot be serious.

Eejit !
146

Davie from Irvine,

Auld Irvine Burgh Ayrshire coast 12/08/2008 13:56:41
connaughtboy @158 im glad you mentioned what AM2 said about oil prices last year because i remember that too.
147

Alan B,

12/08/2008 13:59:43
#Scottish 'N British

Couple of points.

Firstly everyone knows manifesto commitments are for the full election term. The problem with this labour lead tactic is they did not achieve much themselves so rather than working out a vision for themselves they are going down the negative route. We will see at the end of the period 1)how well we think the government has governed (both in absolute terms and compared to what we have had before). 2)how close they are to doing what they said they would try to do. As far as i can see they neither have the incompetence of labour on both sides of the border, while not alienating the bulk of the population in the way the tories did.

"Salmnod also knew what the financial settlement would be"
That is untrue. They may have had a good idea but the actually financial settlement was announced a few months after they won the election. Do you not remember the whole issue when Darling announced a 1.8% increase over 3yrs by changing the base figures. Swinney was a government minister at the time when he explained that it was only 1.4% without that baseline change and importantly it was phased so that it was only 0.5% in the first yr. (an increase that can easily be defined as a real cut based on the fact that inflation measured by rpi is significantly higher than cpi inflation).

"Salmond knew that the CT benefit wouldn't happen if he wasn't collecting, er, CT"

Even AM2 has admitted the money should come to scotland. It is a ridiculous argument to say CT benefit money should not come to scotland if the sp use the powers of devolution to change the method of local government taxation. It is barmy.

The whole financial situation is what? Barnett broadly meant that scotland would get a % share of money spent on england. Brown has turned that into a % share of money spent on england unless he decides that he can have a go at the snp and withhold money from scotland. (remember the money withheld when brown spent on english prisons
148

Alan B,

12/08/2008 14:00:20
cont..

or the money withheld when labour in scotland decided to implement a policy in scotland that brown did not approve regarding -care.)

Finally if you actually want this union to work and want scotland to remain in the union, u would be better directing your fire at the ridiculous labour policies towards scotland picking unnecessary fights with the scottish government (both snp and previously labours) and the tories for alienating scotland so badly in the first place.
149

Alan B,

12/08/2008 14:08:44
#Scottish 'N British

Seriously explain to me one thing. What is the point of labour creating a devolution settlement which grants the scottish parliament power over the method of taxation for local government, and then threatening that parliament with withdrawl of money if it chooses to use that power?

What does it really matter to westminster what method of local government taxation is used in scotland, if that method of taxation gets the democractic approval of the scottish parliament?

Labour have created a ridiculous situation. If you are going to devolve power you need to a clean devolution of powers.

150

Davie from Irvine,

Auld Irvine Burgh Ayrshire 12/08/2008 14:12:12
Alan @ 163 164 165 Informative and well presented facts, well done.
151

Scottish 'N British,

12/08/2008 15:08:17
160

For the record the Lib Dem's LIT proposal is, as it saus on the packet, locally set - Swinney's isn't.

So it is common in 'name' only.
152

brownlie,

12/08/2008 15:18:26
167 Scot 'n Brit

There is commonality in the fact that they, along with most of Scotland, want to see the end of the Council Tax.
153

cataibh,

Over the Struie 12/08/2008 16:03:20
I did not vote for 1000 new police, or local income tax, or toll free bridges, or scrap student fees. I voted for independence.
154

Scottish 'N British,

12/08/2008 16:09:17
Boy, has AM2 got you lot rattled, or what? Elevated by your good self to such a heady height, perhaps I should begin quoting his/her figures at you!

With regards to CT, my thoughts are clear enough.

Let's say Council Tax ended tomorrow, and no one is now paying it. Why then would Swinney require a system of (Council Tax) benefits? His alternative is based on an ability to pay!

Thank you for acknowledging that Salmnod had an idea as to what the financial settlement was - pedantry aside, you know that was my point all along...

155

Shredder,

12/08/2008 16:28:37
#170: full marks to AM2 for his clarity of thought on this. I could see that CT benefit could only apply to another property based system, such as Gray's proposed LVT, but it never occurred to me that it could be argued that that poll tax 2 is already supposedly based on ability to pay (provided you don't live off investment income) and so it shouldn't logically apply anyway. I await the Nats' response to AM2's point with interest.
156

Scottish 'N British,

12/08/2008 16:32:30
168

All pals now, huh? Three new friends for our erstwhile finance secretary?

Oh wait, commonality? Naw, that's no the same. There's still nae new support fir the SNP's CA-LIT...

So, what's new?

lol
157

Scottish 'N British,

12/08/2008 16:38:08
171

Sorry, but I am not AM2. I wish.

There is only one AM2. He/she is The Special One.
158

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 16:52:16
#173

Special needs, maybe.

#171

Heroic spin. When even 3 liebore candidates recognise that ctax is a vote loser, then perhaps it may eventually dawn on you and others that taxation needs to be proportional to your income and not simply an inposition taking no account of ability to pay.

The current ctax and rates before them took no note of ability to pay. Thus, the millionaire/well paid worker paid a tiny proportion of their available income towards local services whilst many on modest incomes and providing the services paid for out of this local taxation paid a much higher proportion of income in these taxes.

Fair ? No

Progressive tax ? No

Linked to ability to pay ? No

Penalising the worst off and those on modest incomes disproportionately ? Yes

Total vote loser ? Yes

Are liebore hypocrites for now jumping on the "bin ctax" waggon ? Yes, but for once it's welcome.
159

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 16:54:17
#170

Quote all you like from AM2. Often AM2 posts, then does a runner, not wishing to deal with rebuttal of it's points. If you are prepared to respond/defend on behalf of AM2, go for it.
160

brownlie,

12/08/2008 17:03:00
72 SNB

What was that all about??
161

snoozyowl,

Wales 12/08/2008 17:03:42
Definitely need LIT up there in Scotland. Bring it in at 3% and then just raise it to pay for all police who see their working lives from 20 to 50 at the most (followed by 15 years working on other things). Or you could reform the police force - how about active work until 50 then desk work from 50 to 65 to qualify for a pension?
162

Shredder,

12/08/2008 17:04:07
#173 Scottish 'N British: he's the Jose Mourinho among bloggers (or alternatively the Colonel Kurtz if you listen to some of the Nutty Nats on here who just don't know how to counter him!)
163

Shredder,

12/08/2008 17:13:19
#174 Dividend: "The current ctax and rates before them took no note of ability to pay"

But company directors live in band H properties and therefore contribute far more to local services than nurses living in ex local authority band B properties. In the real world, how many of the former would choose to live in a band B just to avoid paying a large share of CT? Am I right or am I right!

Are the Nats onto a loser with poll tax 2 or are they onto a loser!
164

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 17:25:29
#182

No, they are on a winner with LIT, just not the centrally set version they currently propose.

A company director in a band H property pays, say, £2k ctax on, say, a salary of £60k for argument's sake.

A nurse on, say, £20 K pays £1200 Band B ctax. By the way, many band B properties are not ex council, but your statement merely adds to your ignorance.

Do you understand yet ? The nurse pays much more proportionately than the company director. Properly constituted LIT is absolutely fair being based on income.

Poll tax was not based on ability to pay. LIT is an income tax based on ability to pay.

Oh dear, not the sharpest tool in the box are you, Shredder. Well, you're not sharp, and you are a bit of a tool as your

"Am I right or am I right!"

comment shows. The answer being

No, you are simply wrong. Even Liebore don't agree with you that ctax is fair, joining everyone else (though I'm not really clear on the tory position).
165

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 17:28:10
The beauty of the Local Income Tax plan by the SNP is in the relative employment figures for every local area. Like a city.

Edinburgh with its high employment can collect a little from everyone with a low rate.

But your Glasgows. 10% rates? About 2/5 people work and have an "income" to tax.

How will the SNP deal with that?

There will be different tax rates all over the place and the well-off will live outwith your high rates and commute. Net result will be the rich having a well funded area and the poor having b*gger all unless they can attract people with incomes to come and sponsor them.
166

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 17:33:19
180 Shredder,12/08/2008 17:04:07

"#173 Scottish 'N British: he's the Jose Mourinho among bloggers"

I don't think AM2 will thank you for the comparison. Most see Mourhino as being, variously

- vain
- self obsessed
- up his own @@rse ("I am the special one ? Jeezo !)
- fond of the sound of his own voice
- being famous for his nonsensical sayings, eg in an
attempt to pass himself off as intelligent he comes
up with complete nonsense verbally and in print
- unable to countenance any criticism as this leads to
low flying toys exiting prams

Hmmm. That's you off AM2's christmas card as, very clearly, none of the above could possibly be applied to it's posts.
167

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 17:35:55
#186

Soup

Where precisely do you get your statement from that 60% of glasgow's population is economically inactive ?

Are you also confirming that you do not agree with the principle of taxation being based on the ability to pay/on your income ?

If so, why not let us go the whole hog. Make all taxes property dependent and abolish standard income tax and NI too.
168

Nikostratos,

12/08/2008 17:37:36
#185 What is the Union Dividend anyway

how do you find out what someones 'REAL'income is?
169

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 17:38:47
189

Nikos, what do you mean ?
170

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 17:43:13
188 Dividend

More hyperbole and rhetoric. I know *you* think twisting words makes you look clever. But not everyone has an IQ as low as yours.

Income tax is progressive.

VAT is regressive.

Petrol duty is regressive.

Council tax is a charge for "services" in theory.


Just because regressive taxes are unfair in high school economics class doesn't mean they are all bad.

I think the solution is to sack thicko's like yourself from their stupid council jobs and pay you jobseekers allowance rather than your 24k per annum for filling in pointless forms.

Change for change's sake is the usual monkey see monkey do mentality of idiots. Just make local governance small, efficient and the basics like rubbish, pest control etc.

Why isn't the SNP scrapping VAT? If regressive is so bad?

You're an idiot, it is sickening listening to ill-informed people bleat on about how "unfair" life is from the comfort of an overpaid desk-job for the cooncil.

Does the dept. you work in have "registry" in its title?
171

Shredder,

12/08/2008 17:43:23
#185 Dividend: but the company director will live off investment income to a large extent once he retires (if he doesn't already) and thus avoid paying poll tax 2 to a large extent. Also, what about the facts that it's doubtful if it can be collected through PAYE, there's doubt over the rate at which it would have to be set (which will almost certainly be far more than 3p) and, just to put the tin lid on it, there will be loss of CT benefit, which can only be applied to a property based tax.

Long experience in this country has proved that property based taxes are the simplest to collect, provide local accountability and in practice are levied according to ability to pay (the bigger your house, the bigger your bank balance and investment income, Dividend!). Poll tax 2 is in many ways the SNP's separation agenda in microcosm: muddled and unnecessary folly. End of!
172

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 17:50:04
#191

Soup. Stop it, you are making people laugh so much at you you're causing injuries.

You are so right about my IQ but then, I don't have a problem with it and didn't choose to introduce the topic. But as you have done so, it is only fair to point out (as you demonstrate so ably and clearly above), your IQ is indeed several points lower than mine. And most other sentient creatures on the planet.

As is usual with you, you rant rather than answer. You have no idea what i do for a living or indeed who I work for. You also have no idea on tax.

The facts are, taxation based on income and thus ability to pay are fair, logical, easily understood, and easier to collect through HMRC, direct at source for most via PAYE. Those that are on PAYE thus will have 100% LIT collection rates; at the moment, because their money is paid to their account and they then have to decide to pay the tax or take the consequences ctax is easier to dodge than LIT.

This alone demonstrates your stunning ignorance.
173

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 17:53:15
193 Hoots

Which law of physics prevents the SNP pledging to abolish VAT in an independent Scotland?

All the union gorillas/barbaric thugs that are jumping from the good ship Labour to the SNP can just vote in a tax of 95% on all scientists, engineers, chemists, doctors, surgeons, architects who worked hard and achieved all their years.

And vote themselves a tax free 30k per year for a 3 day week working at the cooncil.

Do you even know why you want to reduce taxes on the "low-earners"? So they can go on holiday twice a year?

Taxes should be on ability to pay. Everyone can afford to pay council tax and if they can't then there are already discounts.
174

Shredder,

12/08/2008 17:54:24
#191 Soup kitchen: I had Dividend marked down as a C2 council worker type as well. Note the grammar when he refers to "it's posts" and ignore this ignoramus with as many chips as a fish supper.
175

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 17:55:22
#192

Shredder, the LIT principle is easy to understand and there is no technical impediment to it being collected by PAYE via HMRC. I don't think the SNP have the right detail proposal but the principle is sound.

LIT is not poll tax 2; it is based on ability to pay; poll tax was not. However many times you try to spin LIT as poll tax2, no one, even you, is convinced.

Those living on unearned investment income are a relatively small proportion of the public. Taxation policy can be amended if felt necessary to tax this income (as indeed was applied to savings accounts and welfare benefits in previous years). It can be accounted for and evasion policed exactly as it is at the present, by HMRC.

Property taxes which rely on individuals paying from their bank accounts are less likely to have an effective collection rate than check offs direct from salary. PAYE collection rates for LIT will thus be 100% and in consequence higher than the ctax collection rate for this group of workers currently is.
176

brownlie,

12/08/2008 17:56:30
193 Hoots

It won't be long now!
177

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 17:57:15
194 Dividend

I know exactly your type. Few qualifications, pointless public sector desk job, in receipt of multiple benefits, paid up union member.

Want to rape all Scientists, Engineers, Doctors and so on for their money because you don't believe in rewarding hard work.

You are bitter that you don't have what it takes to achieve academically and want to knee-cap those born with brains. This is the root of the SNP/Labour philosophy.

Why do you think social mobility has fallen so far under SNP/Labour. Impossible to make a thicko clever, so the only way to reduce that social justice "gap" is to knee-cap the talented.

That is the LIT philosophy.
178

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 17:58:56
199

Soup, you tool.

Ctax, being a fixed price per charging band, is clearly not based on ability to pay. You pay the same per band irrespective of your income.

So your band D pensioner loses far more of their income than a working person. No reward for paying taxes all your life is it, being taxed into penury in retirement ?

Funny, the more you lose an argument, the more you rant, the more insulting you become, etc. As you are indeed doing above.

Keep it up though, we're all having a laugh at you. And you are piling on the SNP vote as you do it. Hilarious.
179

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 17:59:44
199 Hoots

What law of physics hoots?

We don't have to be in the EU, we could be independent, for example.
180

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 18:01:59
#201, S(t)oup(id) Bitchin'

Keep up with the funnies son, you are so far wide of the mark it is really amusing.

I could choose to be more insulting back to you than you are to me with absolute ease, but I think for the moment I'll just let your mentallist rambling continue to destroy any vestigal trace elements of whatever once passed for any reputation.
181

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 18:19:20
Hey, Soup Kitchen(aka Poop Itchin)

Still waiting for an answer to #188

"Where precisely do you get your statement from that 60% of glasgow's population is economically inactive ?

Are you also confirming that you do not agree with the principle of taxation being based on the ability to pay/on your income ?

If so, why not let us go the whole hog. Make all taxes property dependent and abolish standard income tax and NI too."

We can all see that rather than answer the points you've gone on a rant offensive against me. It's called playing the man not the ball in politics, but I don't mind as you are so feeble in your arguments it is quite fun.

Now then, poop. Is it that you know you backed yourself into a corner, posted nonsense, and are afraid to answer perfectly valid questions as repeated above?

If so, admit it - admission is the first step to rehabilitation. Or, maybe you might answer these questions.
182

sonofhamish,

edinburgh 12/08/2008 19:03:36
Actually #3 is quite right. The public sector get pension provisions that those of us in the private sector can only dream of. In terms of the police they do have an incredibly hard job to do so I dont begrude them at all, however the pen pushers that sit in Whitehall, the DVLC and the Scottish Executive really need a good kicking. I hope everyone understands that 50p in each pound of council tax you pay funds these things...
183

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 19:09:05
#3 is not completely right.

It is true that there is wastage in the public sector and jobs could indeed be rationalised.

However, the very vast majority of public sector workers earn much less than the national average wage and indeed many could earn more in the private rather than public sector.

To retire on half final salary pension a council worker has to put in 30 years service; pensions accrue at 1/60th per year. There are not that many with pensions in excess of £10k per annum as a result.

Don't let the spin get in the way of the facts. The sector is overweight in jobs and could lose quite a few no problem, but - unlike the private sector - there is no army of pensioners on massive pensions.
184

brownlie,

12/08/2008 19:11:54
210 sms753

Well lucky old Home Office to have around £500 million which it can pay out of its existing budget. They obviously do not have to work on a shoe-string like the Scottish Government.

Surely this does not mean that those who are "tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime" are not going to reduce police numbers in the rest of the UK as a result.
185

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 19:13:52
212 Dividend

Ok, you definately work for the cooncil, propogating myths put around the shop floor by your unions.

The median salary in the public sector is higher than the median in the private. So factually you are wrong aboput many being poorly paid.

And there is an army of pensioners in the public sector, Britain will be graded "sub-investment" by rating agencies if it doesn't sort greedy leeches like your bad self.
186

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 19:22:14
"Well lucky old Home Office to have around £500 million which it can pay out of its existing budget. They obviously do not have to work on a shoe-string like the Scottish Government."

Yep, we don't get much of a dividend from the union. Vote for independence and rectify the problem. Then we are in charge of our own future, our own resources, and can't blame anyone for any wrong decisions.

Of course, according to the unionists (with their 32% minority support from the electorate at holyrood last time) Scotland is apparently incapable of managing it's own affairs, economy and resources.

Note that unionists never say WHY Scotland is apparently incapable of managing it's own affairs, economy and resources, just that it IS - as if somehow the repeating of this unsupported assertion must make it true somehow. No greater love hath the unionist minority for it's country than to decry it as incapable of running it's own affairs.

187

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 19:26:14
216 Waspy

You are a bit stupid. Maybe you are dividend's alter-ego.

The state will NOT let private sector workers claim their pension until 65, some have to work until 70.

Public sector workers are allowed their pension at 60.

That means at least 5 extra years per employee costs without any work in return.

Too many leeches in Britain.
188

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 19:27:45
I see the public sector are trying to negotiate more money for inflation too just now.

How do they sleep at nights?

Seems we earn it, they spend it, and when the going gets tough they get more money without having to give up early retirements and just force the tax-payers to pay more and work longer.

Scum. Sack half of them and pay them job-seekers.
189

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 19:29:46
Itchin Poop

Welcome back:

Wrong again. For a significant amount of public sector workers the current deal will see their cash income rise by less than £1 per week at the end of a three year fixed period.

Given inflation is set to hit 4% this is of course a real terms pay cut.

I don't work for any council; your claim that I do is simply another example of you stating something then saying "It must be true 'cos I says so."

"The median salary in the public sector is higher than the median in the private. So factually you are wrong aboput many being poorly paid." Source ? Or simply your latest unsupported assertion ? Post some proof and I will happily retract.

Facts are, most in the public sector do earn much less than the average wage.

Do you know what a housing officer, looking after the homeless, earns ? How about a newly qualified teacher, social worker, police officer, or a private soldier ?

Here's a clue. Less than the average wage.

You haven't a clue; in fact such is your limited intellectual capability, you can't surely be employed by anyone or your incompetence would have seen you sacked, and clearly you can't be running a company or it would have gone bust years ago.



190

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 19:31:51
#Sooooooooop(athetic it's funny)

The "Rule of 85" has been abolished save for those shortly due to retire for public sector workers that actually had it. As widely reported at the time but ignored by you to make a cheap point.

191

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 19:34:30
219 Dividend

You are stupid. You claimed that the public sector get paid less first without substantiating.

I then claimed after that you were wrong and because you are so stupid and ill-informed you have to claim that I provide all proof. This is typical of an ass that works for the cooncil.

I told you earlier. See Sunday's edition of the Telegraph, the article in the business pages about public pension's bankrupting Britain.

You are stupid. You don't know anything and you just sit here barking like a dog. Typical cooncil worker. Overpaid, unable to find anything out by themselves and demand everyone else provides you with everything you think you need to assess something you lack the intelligence to deliver.
192

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 19:36:03
Waspy

Soop can't be subsisting on a state pension. Or the poor eedjit wouldn't be supporting retaining the unfair, nott based on ability to pay, easier to dodge than LIT cooncil tax.

Soop should, by rights, support abolishing all income taxes and changing them to property tax as soop claims they are fairer than taxes based on ability to pay.

Soop still declines to answer the following questions:

"Where precisely do you get your statement from that 60% of glasgow's population is economically inactive ?

Are you also confirming that you do not agree with the principle of taxation being based on the ability to pay/on your income ?

If so, why not let us go the whole hog. Make all taxes property dependent and abolish standard income tax and NI too."

3rd time of asking now, Soop. Hurry up and answer them or explain why not; I'm away out with friends shortly.

That's "friends" Soop. Look it up in a dictionary for an explanation, seeing as you have clearly never had any.
193

,

12/08/2008 19:39:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
194

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 19:43:56
Dividend

Why are you so bitter. The generous people of Britain who have talents and earn money and pay taxes are willing to sponsor you like a dog or a penguin.

They pay you well, give you employment rights that are rock solid, guaranteed early retirement, you are virtually unsackable no matter how stupid or useless you are and all they ask in return is that you yourself contribute some of the hard earned money they give to you every month to your own pension and pay for your own rubbish to be cleaned up.

Why can't you just say thank you? Why do you demand that we also pay for your rubbish pick ups as well as the generous sponsorship you get at the donkey sanctuary next to toon hall at the cooncil.
195

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 19:52:02
229 Hoots

I wouldn't go that far. The article is about the sheer size of the public sector and the enormous costs of sponsoring useless gits like you would a lame beast.

As a result there isn't enough money to provide services to hard-working tax payers, once we've paid for the upkeep of these animals.

While I don't advocate the social darwinism of the states, we pay too much money to benefits cheats and council workers (admin).

At least when you sponsor a penguin you feel good about yourself. But sponsoring thicko's whose only "skill" is answering a telephone rudely isn't much fun.
196

Conan the Librarian™,

12/08/2008 19:54:06
230
Ah for the good old days of three or four Ayrshire Scot™'s trading insults.

Makes me quite nostalgic.
197

What is the Union Dividend anyway ?,

Self determination, not supplication 12/08/2008 19:55:17
I'm not at all bitter. You should read your own comments to posters before accusing anyone of being bitter - but thanks for providing us all with another example of your hypocracy for a laugh at.

Again.

I do not work for a public authority. I do appreciate the work that they do, unlike you.

Eg police, nurses, soldiers. All those you belittle in your attacks on the public sector. According to you, these people have no talent and are worth no more than a dog or a penguin. You sad, bitter and twisted ignoramus of an individual that you most clearly have demostrated, through your posts, time after time, that you are.

Many are highly qualified professions, and you should ask yourself the question that if there was no public sector, what impact it would have on your life.

They do pay into their pensions too you tool; they are not 100% taxpayer funded. But in your rush to condemn that which you know nothing about you got this spectacularly wrong in accusing public sector workers of not paying towards their pensions.

Now, err, gonnae admit yir wrang ? Doubt it.

4th time now Soop:

"Where precisely do you get your statement from that 60% of glasgow's population is economically inactive ?

Are you also confirming that you do not agree with the principle of taxation being based on the ability to pay/on your income ?

If so, why not let us go the whole hog. Make all taxes property dependent and abolish standard income tax and NI too."

Going for a pint. I may check in around ten just to see if you have answered the questions or not and what your latest hilarious insult might be.






198

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 19:58:17
Soldiers work for the cooncil?

Enjoy your pint, it's on me and the other tax-payers. Don't mention it, my pleasure.

I didn't say as a public admin thicko you were worth the same as a penguin, I said sponsoring a penguin was more worthwhile.

Give me my own money back, move you onto jobseekers and save the tax-payer 18k a year.
199

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 19:59:19
And while we're at it, scrap jobseekers allowance.

They can be treated like students, we'll loan them the cash until they get a job.

Nice thought eh? Treating smegs like you the same as hard-working people who don't get given a penny.
200

,

12/08/2008 20:01:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
201

McMadman's Twin,

McMadman's lost his voice somehow 12/08/2008 20:12:47
Soop

Dividend has clearly pointed out he does not work for the cooncil. But clearly if he did he would be on £18k. Neatly proving dividend's point that many cooncil workers are on less than the average wage.

BTW, how do you think Cooncil tax is administered and collected ? If you get rid of the cooncil admin staff you'll need to get rid of your cooncil tax that you seem to love so much.

And are you actually going to answer dividends questions ? You know, people might think you have something to hide or don't know what you are talking about otherwise - that'd be a shame as you clearly do know what you are on about, don't you ?




202

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 20:17:06
238 McMadman

I said "saving" £18k, he'd still get 6k jobseekers a year. I said he was on 24k earlier.

You've come in to late. He definately works for the cooncil or is some other client-of-the-state together with his other aliases.


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12/08/2008 20:22:48
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Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 20:24:19
240

What question?
205

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 20:24:48
Can't you ask jeeves?

I wish the cooncil would train you how to find your own answers or I could charge you.
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12/08/2008 20:29:06
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12/08/2008 20:35:21
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Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 20:48:18
244

You are stupid.

The unemployed homeless on £0 a year got an increase of 1,000,000% and are currently getting an improved salary of £0 a year.

You can clearly see 1,000,000% is considerably more than the private sector even, best quit your jobs!

You don't even understand percentages. OMG! You *do* work for the council.

Imagine that, fascinating, a real life adult in our midst that doesn't understand high school maths. I've seen them advertising about your types, but never believed it was possible.

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12/08/2008 21:17:25
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12/08/2008 21:20:45
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12/08/2008 21:27:21
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12/08/2008 21:28:38
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Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 21:30:50
253

How about paying tax on your income tax? I hate that.

We should get double tax relief like compaies do.

You pay tax on your VAT. Tax on your road tax. Tax on stamp duty.

If you're a student you get taxed on your loan because you have to pay it off in a year when you are getting tax, yu can't even elect to carry back the income.

The only way to avoid tax is to be a scrounging Labour/SNP voter and live your life on post-war hand outs.

Tax-free, all NET payments, no obligation to pay back.

214

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 21:33:03
255

Well said 255.

Because you are too stupid and uneducated to ever earn any real money you can vote to allow me to sponsor you like a zoo penguin or lame donkey.

What does ability to pay mean? If you have food in your belly, clothes on your back and a roof over your head you can afford to pay for your own pick ups of rubbish.

215

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 21:35:10
255

You say ability to pay. This really means free-loading like a scrounging leech? Yes?!

Why should you get luxury holidays? You are a stupid unproductive council worker.
216

Conan the Librarian™,

12/08/2008 21:39:13
Good Evening Hoots, bright and shiny, unsullied by the grey grime of Unionism.
217

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 21:41:32
Hoots

You are stupid.

If the state has £100 and it gives a "zoo penguin" £100 to buy booze, drugs and fags then the state has lost £100 and gained nothing.

If the state has £100 and fails to collect an extra £100 in tax from the rich then the state is the same as before.

These aren't the same things.

I definately think sponsoring humans like zoo animals with post-war hand outs has to stop and likewise we need to cut out private equity types, but not for lost taxes. Just they cheapen the place and destroy institutions.
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Conan the Librarian™,

12/08/2008 21:41:48
261
Hoots, er...mon.
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Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 21:47:28
Hoots

There is no point in spending more time than required. You are clearly stupid.

You say an entity losing something it once owned and an entity failing to collect something it never owned equates to the same thing.

You are demonstrably stupid if you can't understand abstract concepts like ownership and abject permanence.

Don't be embarassed by that. Not everyone can be clever. But please stop demanding the same pay and conditions as clever people, that's just not fair.

Life is cruel and you are stupid, that's the way it is.
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12/08/2008 21:48:36
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12/08/2008 21:49:37
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Conan the Librarian™,

12/08/2008 21:51:25
266
It is rather strange accusing everybody of being a council worker...except for my good self:-)

Am I a sponsored penguin, a layabout or a mere shirker?
224

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 21:53:18
272

Answer what questions?

Like most stupid people there is a bit of a bully in you. You want me to play the victim by being controlled by you, you want to control me, order me about to feel that sense of "power".

But relax, it's just insecurities talking because you are stupid and talentless. Try and love yourself for who you are and the need to ask pointless questions and demand equally silyl and irrelevant answers may pass.

Just lie down for an hour, have a cry about your council job, your lack of education and inability to gain access to higher education because you would fail the entrance exams.
225

McMadman's Twin,

McMadman's lost his voice somehow 12/08/2008 21:57:36
Poopypuppy

These ones. This is the tenth time. Here they are:

"Where precisely do you get your statement from that 60% of glasgow's population is economically inactive ?

Are you also confirming that you do not agree with the principle of taxation being based on the ability to pay/on your income ?

If so, why not let us go the whole hog. Make all taxes property dependent and abolish standard income tax and NI too."
226

Soup kitchen,

12/08/2008 21:59:36
Okay, ceasefire, Frasier is listening...

... let's explore why my little zoo penguins feel the need to engage in never ending cycles of pointless questioning about irrelevat subjects.

Does sounding pseudo-political make you feel intellectual and informed?

Well, if so, relax, politics isn't even a propper degree. You all sound like f**kwits trying to emulate the idiots who debate in formal chambers.
227

Conan the Librarian™,

12/08/2008 22:00:42
274
"Like most stupid people there is a bit of a bully in you. You want me to play the victim by being controlled by you, you want to control me, order me about to feel that sense of "power"."

Is there a hint of wistfulness in that statement Soupy?
228

McMadman's Twin,

McMadman's lost his voice somehow 12/08/2008 22:00:50
Btw, my twin advises me this soop eedjit is remarkably like the late unlamented highland mighty, even down to the laughable accusations of bullying made by it when even a brief look at soops post show it to have been one heck of a hectoring bully itself.

So soop is not just ignorant but is a hypocrite.

Soop = cant; empty, hypocritical talk as my twin says. Soop is therefore canting cant.

#275 Hoots

LMFAO :)
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12/08/2008 22:02:29
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12/08/2008 22:04:55
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Conan the Librarian™,

12/08/2008 22:09:02
280
Hi Twins.

The hint is in his moniker, standing abjectly in line gloriously ashamed, hands cupped protectively around his bowl; hoping somebody in power is going to put something in it...
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Conan the Librarian™,

12/08/2008 22:21:36
Yes Hoots, another piece of their sky fallen; soon(around 2010)they will be comepletely buried:-)


"Mr Soup I fear has succumbed to the C­ock-a-leakie."

LOL, so long he cleans it off his keyboard.
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12/08/2008 22:47:27
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Senga Jean,

12/08/2008 23:53:34
Police pensions are paid by an 11% contribution from officers and the remainder from the employer. Way back pre war in a bit of creative accounting it was decided that with Police and Fire service pensions the contributions would not be kept in a pension fund. Therefore no investment was made and pensions paid from revenue. It got the government of the day over a spot of cash flow difficulties. It now haunts us. Not the fault of the police or fire service personnel nor the SNP.
235

Senga Jean,

12/08/2008 23:54:50
#290 ANOTHER UNION DIVIDEND???????

 

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