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Bringing home the truth on CO2 output

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Published Date: 31 March 2008
FORGET the environmental impact of gas-guzzling 4x4s, smoking factories and that most hated target of green campaigners the world over – the aeroplane.
A new report has found that a major contributor to the UK's carbon output is literally right on our doorsteps – with our own homes making up about 27 per cent of all CO2 emissions.

The study, from WWF, argues that the whole of Scotland's existi
ng housing stock could be made eco-friendly by the end of the next decade – but only if the Scottish Government makes a radical policy change to kick-start homeowners into taking matters into their own hands.

The charity wants politicians to at least treble their £1 billion-a-year spend on upgrading housing stock in the UK to make it more environmentally friendly, by increasing the number of grants available to homeowners and introducing incentives such as reduced council tax for greener homes.

It says the move would slash domestic carbon emissions by nearly half within 12 years and 75 per cent by 2050.

But in its How Low? report, published today, the WWF claims that, if these drastic measures are not taken, the Scottish Government will fall well short of its minimum emissions reduction target of 80 per cent by 2050. The tough measures are part of the Climate Change Bill, which is out to consultation.

Elizabeth Leighton, the WWF Scotland footprint policy officer, said: "Nearly a third of Scotland's climate change emissions come from homes, so it is vital we have a wholesale revision of the way in which the environmental impacts of the country's housing stock is tackled."

Scotland has long been heralded as the UK leader in the field of low-carbon new-build homes – but the accolade sounds somewhat less impressive when taking into account the WWF's claims that 99 per cent of the country's housing stock is made up of older properties.

The group is calling for a massive investment which will encourage home owners to tackle a range of green projects including solar water heating, ground source pump heating and household insulation.

The proposals would not only be good news for the environment, but are also set to lead to a cut in bills for householders.

But the figures don't necessarily add up, unless the homeowner is planning to stay in the same house. According to the report, the owner of a sizeable detached home with an oil-fired boiler could save £565 a year – but carrying out the work to cut carbon output would set the property owner back by a massive £12,550, taking them 22 years to recoup the cost.

The Green MSP Robin Harper has spent the past ten years renovating his Victorian home in Edinburgh's Morningside to reduce its carbon output. "Estate agents still believe they cannot sell a house based on its environmental properties – but if they marketed it as being carbon efficient and could save the buyer X pounds a year in bills, that would make people think differently."

But he added that Scotland's high volume of old housing could be problematic even for the greenest of home owners.

He said: "Victorian properties are difficult, but many things can still be done. If your property is in a conservation area as many are, things like external insulation can be a problem."

Some of the incentives mooted by WWF, including a low-interest government loan for people who want to improve the carbon output of their home, have already been tried and tested in European countries such as Germany, where a similar scheme has been successfully in place for about three years.

But others aren't so sure that every homeowner will jump on the bandwagon. Duncan McLaren, the chief executive of Friends of the Earth Scotland, believes in a stronger enforcement technique, saying Scotland needs a system "where houses cannot be sold or let if they don't meet minimum energy efficiency standards".

Karl Brookes, a spokesman for consumer body Energywatch, agrees: "You can spend as much as you like on improving energy efficiency and not everyone has a spare few thousand pounds to do that."

But he added: "However, we have found that what is good for the environment is generally good for the consumer."

It remains to be seen whether this is enough to convince every homeowner in Scotland to join in. Optimistic? WWF is.





Page 1 of 1

 
1

Robert,

Kirriemuir 31/03/2008 00:46:45
See article at:

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/current.aspx

which is more optimistic.
2

Dr Coles,

USA 31/03/2008 04:37:47
Over 400 World Wide Prominent Scientists Disputed Man-Made Global Warming Claims in 2007. See http://tinyurl.com/2dv6nz
3

Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

31/03/2008 06:32:50
Is Duncan McLaren in the real world, Scotland has a huge amount of homeless people, and families living in 'sub-standard' housing, and his answer is..."Duncan McLaren, the chief executive of Friends of the Earth Scotland, believes in a stronger enforcement technique, saying Scotland needs a system "where houses cannot be sold or let if they don't meet minimum energy efficiency standards"."

Is there no end to the rubbish spouted by these 'fireside do-gooders', especially when one considers, that 'Global Warming' is not a 'scientific fact' more a Scientific fiction, the fact is we do not have a long enough climate record to work from, and those in the 'Scientific Community' can't seem to agree.

Having said that I'm all for grants and low interest loans to properly insulate Scottish house and homes against our 'subarctic' weather.


4

eDUCATIon,

31/03/2008 07:36:47
I'll just let George Carlin do the talking......

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eScDfYzMEEw
5

jdships,

31/03/2008 08:04:11
Wish I knew just who to believe ?
Seems to me there is vested intersts in all this !
A lot of people going to make a lot of money - perhaps yes ?
6

Saoghal Beag,

31/03/2008 09:03:01
that housing accounts for circa 30% of the uks carbon emissions has been recognised for some time. Real question is why has the construction industry been able to preven reasonable building standards, comparable to scandic or passiv hus, being brought in and being enforced.

tin foil and bubble wrap is no way to insulate a home but that is the prefered product right now.
7

eyeswider,

work 31/03/2008 09:04:35
"FORGET the environmental impact of gas-guzzling 4x4s, smoking factories and that most hated target of green campaigners the world over – the aeroplane."

Most sensible sentence on the subject I have seen in ages. Makes the rest of this rubbish redundant.



By no means the only article on this subject this morning:
http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/0408/0408globalwarmingoceans.htm

8

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 31/03/2008 09:05:04
There is not a shred of evidence that Carbon Dioxide is a CAUSAL factor in global warming.
The gas is so rare that it is almost a trace gas - just 400 parts per million - which means that for any UNIT of atmosphere - 999,600 parts are NOT CO2. Four hundred parts per million equates to just 4 parts in 10,000. So try this experiment. Fill a room with 10,000 ping pong balls - then hide 4 red painted balls among them. Now try and find the 4 red balls among the 10,000 white ones. You will be looking a very long time to find one.

Duncan McLaren - the 'Chief Executive' of FOE (one wonders who the other Executives are??) should now explin how a stable gas, which is so non-reactive we use it in canned drinks - how can this tiny, tiny trace gas possibly affect the heat-storage of the 99.99% of the atmosphere which is NOT carbon dioxide.

The Earth has just experienced the coldest winter in the last 50 years - China was buried under snow to the extent that 500 million people could not get home for the New Year and over 500,000 farm animals perished. Many American states have had the coldest winter in 50 years; most of Asia - including Afghanistan and Iraq have been bitterly cold. Arctic Sea Ice is at an all time high.

The global warming fantasists can spin their propaganda as much as they like - but as Abraham Lincoln said:
"You can fool all the people part of the time, and part of the people all of the time; but you can't fool ALL the people, ALL of the time".

The game is up -
9

Guthrie,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 09:05:22
*YAwn*
I thought everyone knew that houses were one of the major UK sources of CO2. Some of you might have seen me comment that the gvt are useless because they have deliberately failed to tighten the building regulations in order to improve the efficiency of new houses.

Dr Coles- go and spam somewhere else. That is all you ever seem to do.
10

Margaret L,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 09:23:54
I echo that yawn. Scotland's CO2 output, for the last year that figures were announced(2006), rose by 14% over the previous year. The highest increase in the developed world.
This was as a result of a 35-40% increase in CO2 from our electricity production which in turn was caused by the neglect of our nuclear power stations.
The leading campaign group in Scotland against nuclear power was Friends of the Earth( an ironic title given these facts) quoted in the report above and an other was WWF from whom this report emanates.
11

MoragfraeEdinburgh,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 09:58:04
Last year The Scotsman carried a report that to save the earth Robin Harper was giving up his dish-washing machine!
12

Upbeat,

31/03/2008 09:58:31
It is possible for the poster #9 to find the answers to his question in any number of scientific papers on the internet and elsewhere . Indeed the lnks to many of these papers have been concveniently supplied by others , here in the Scotsman comment section, time after time.

Type "Carbon dioxide in the atmosphere" into any search engine, and get started.

The fact that he still returns to these boards to say that he does not understand how CO2 can have any causal effect simply reveals a deliberate unwillingness to study or attempt to understand the science.

It is a fact that snow only falls in a very narrow band of temperature variation. The fact that more snow has fallen this winter, in some parts of the world, can be attributed to unusual warmer and moister atmospheric conditions, not necessarily to colder. Snowfall occurs when moisture that has become frozen at high altitude in the atmosphere warms slightly, and the ice crystals coagulate, linking together until that result is large enough to overcome gravity and descend.
13

Unimpressed one,

31/03/2008 10:02:19
'Duncan McLaren, the chief executive of Friends of the Earth Scotland, believes in a stronger enforcement technique, saying Scotland needs a system "where houses cannot be sold or let if they don't meet minimum energy efficiency standards".'

Is this not typical of eco-bams. Control and ban, ban and control. Times were when these loonies could rant their guff as much as the next idiot and no-one gave a damn. However now they have the ear of our supine politicians who can smell the 'sheep' vote and use our money to placate their junk science claims, it's time ordinary people woke up to stop this rot.
14

eyeswider,

work 31/03/2008 10:07:36
#13 Upbeat

http://icecap.us/images/uploads/ClimateChange_Nicol.pdf

pipe/smoke it.
15

11+failed,

the pans 31/03/2008 10:09:07
Has nobody told that lot that Global Warming has been suspended.
"According to Nasa's Goddard Institute for Space Studies, we experienced the sharpest January-to-January global temperature drop - three quarters of a degree Celsius - since records began in 1880.Temperatures were lower than their 20th century average for the first time since 1982. Snow cover in the northern hemisphere was at its greatest extent since 1966. At the other end of the world, Antarctic ice-cover was at its most extensive since satellite records began in 1979, 30 per cent above the January average"
16

eyeswider,

stuporville 31/03/2008 10:19:10
#16 11+failed

Watch it - the climate police will be all over that statement ;-)
With "weather is not climate" "oil funded" and "glossy website" amongst the tired derision dripping outmodedness. Just wait 'til fred gets here....

http://newsok.com/article/3223087/1206927731


Funny how this never makes the news:
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages/images.php3?img_id=17257

Anyone would think there was an agenda to only print the bad stuff. I can't wait for March temps to be published by the "authorities".



17

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 10:26:30
OK, you denialists. Explain why a 5000 square mile chunk of ice is about to break free of Antarctica:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:20080325_wilkins_figure2.jpg
18

Upbeat,

31/03/2008 10:26:56
15 Your point is ?
19

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 10:30:26
more on 18:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilkins_Sound
20

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 11:02:28
"Carbon emmissions"
"Carbon footprint"
"Footprint policy officer"

What a load of drivel. Until they start talking sense and using the correct terminology, I shall ignore them and I advise everyone else to do the same.

The real issue here is nothing to do with CO2 emmissions in any case. It is to do with the finate nature of fossil fuels. Why can't they be honest? Why do we have to go through all this stupid, inane fairy-tale world of meaningless rubbish? Unless we address the real issue soon instead of deluding ourselves that trying to change the weather is of paramount importance, there is going to be some major problems later on.

Remember King Canute?
21

eyeswider,

work 31/03/2008 11:25:18
#19

Upbeat - read this please:
http://icecap.us/images/uploads/ClimateChange_Nicol.pdf


22

eyeswider,

still here 31/03/2008 11:25:27


#18 #20 fred:
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages/images.php3?img_id=17257

See the warm patch? It is a volcanic/tectonic hotspot. The rest of the continent of Antarctica (vastly more (%99.99)than the exposed limb where "your" "newsworthy" chunk fell off) has seen its temps drop year on year since the 70'ies.

A short read on the data (that you will doubtless dismiss with your usual myopia as "glossy website" :
http://icecap.us/images/uploads/MISLEADING_REPORTS_ABOUT_ANTARCTICA.pdf


23

seanie,

31/03/2008 11:41:16
http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/news/20080116/208422main_global_temp_change.jpg
24

Neil,

Glasgow 31/03/2008 11:42:37
"A new report has found that a major contributor to the UK's carbon output is literally right on our doorsteps – with our own homes"

Amazing the amount of scientific research WWF have been able to do even if there is nothing original in it. This says absolutely nothing new but is still an excuse for a press release.

At £12,500 per home, even if they kept to that figure & it achieved something, we are talking about £50 billion or the entire Scottish budget for 1 1/2 years. Meanwhile in reality....
25

Toom,

31/03/2008 11:47:15
#9 "There is not a shred of evidence that Carbon Dioxide is a CAUSAL factor in global warming.
The gas is so rare that it is almost a trace gas - just 400 parts per million - which means that for any UNIT of atmosphere - 999,600 parts are NOT CO2. Four hundred parts per million equates to just 4 parts in 10,000. So try this experiment. Fill a room with 10,000 ping pong balls - then hide 4 red painted balls among them. Now try and find the 4 red balls among the 10,000 white ones. You will be looking a very long time to find one."

That the very problem - CO2 is 0.04% of atmosphere - methane is about 0.002%. These, plus vapour vapour are what traps radiated heat - without these tiny proportions the average surface temperature on Earth would be -15C. With these tiny proportions it is nearer 15C. that is why any significant change in these minor components has a major disproportionate effect. That has been known, and demonstrable, since about the 1860s. I don't think anyone, whatever there views on global warming or climate change, has ever come up with any credible evidence to dispute that.
26

Guthrie,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 11:47:57
eyeswider #23- you're EO newsroom link provides no evidence that the Antarctic peninsula is a volcanic hotspot and no evidence to tie it in with the Wilkins sound ice.
Such lies are typical of yourself. Please come back when you are prepared to argue in good faith rather than by lie and misdirection.

As for the Antarctic, I thought everyone knew that 1) the polar vortex has contracted, ensuring that the ice cap stays cold, but leaving the peninsula out in the warm, and 2) that ozone depletion helps cool the south pole, which is why it is not getting much or any warmer down there.

27

eyeswider,

work 31/03/2008 11:51:17
#21 Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head

They are playing on our guilt(sometimes suppressed) at enjoying our lifestyle at the expense of other people starving. Through this crack they pour the lies that control us.

There is no lack of oil/coal if you have a look around. People were fired for reporting the finds off the Falklands (the real reason Galtieri and maggie thatcher organized a scuffle) - there is a land grab going on right now for 400 billion easily recoverable barrels under the sea near Alaska - also Prudhoe bay on the north slope - 1.2 trillion barrels now available cheaply from oil sands in central US - Alberta oil sands (undisclosed amounts but enough to supply 17 mill barrels a year to US from Canada) - new finds (for exposing which more people got fired) off Brazil - deep abiotic discoveries all over the CCCP (sorry soviet bloc) - more elsewhere.

It is just another big lie. There is plenty, plenty oil and it is not even fossil based but, as the Russians will attest, released from deep deposits of methane.
Google:
What is the deepest fossil ever found?
What is the deepest oil ever found?
The answers don't add up.

28

Agent 99,

31/03/2008 12:05:10
More grants? Aye right: jobs for the boys.

I've just investigated switching oil fired boiler for woodchip. There used to be a 30% grants under the householder renewables initiative [why do these things always have titles most folk can't pronounce?]. The boiler supplier no longer works with the government grant programmes because of a) the excessively onerous conditions, designed only to make fortunes for the businesses that are "certified" and b) the grants schemes spend about £20K internally to give the consumer a max of £4K.

This is neither good governance nor a wise use of financial resources. Put another way, every £1 in the grant scheme brings a massive 20p of benefit. Given the so-called "scrutiny" that public spending is seemingly subject to these days, such a scheme wouldn't get to first base.
29

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 12:12:39
eyeswide posts links to denialist websites.

For non-paranoid readers, here is what the real scientists are telling us about the antarctic ice shelves:

'Climate warming in the Antarctic Peninsula has pushed the limit of viability for ice shelves further south – setting some of them that used to be stable on a course of retreat and eventual loss. The Wilkins breakout won't have any effect on sea-level because it is floating already, but it is another indication of the impact that climate change is having on the region."

http://www.antarctica.ac.uk/press/press_releases/press_release.php?id=376

- The British Antarctic Survey.
30

eyeswider,

still here 31/03/2008 12:16:54
#27 Guthrie

As expected you refuse to read anything that runs counter to your religious belief that the monkey did it and deserves a slap.

Try:
http://icecap.us/images/uploads/MISLEADING_REPORTS_ABOUT_ANTARCTICA.pdf
http://climatesci.org/2008/03/27/reality-check-on-antarctic-sea-ice/
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=88520025
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/2352

all just from the last few days - all liars too I suppose ;-)

Take a look on the USGS website:
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/

The Ring of Fire - it's not called that for nothing. Oh look, there is an inconvenient Antarctic peninsula near Tierra del Fuego.


I am enjoying watching this unravel. Just carry on digging a deeper hole. You will need somewhere to hide when cooling, exacerbated by food-for-fuel, kills millions. But I am beginning to think that that is exactly the aim of this "the life giving gas is killing us" satanic switching of good for bad.

31

nabodican,

Rural Scotland 31/03/2008 12:17:57
Since when did the World Wildlife Fund Scotland become experts on carbon emissions or even understand if they are good or bad or we can or need to do anything about them.
Targets set by the Holyrood Numptorium are totally meaningless and are their politically correct solution to a politically incorrect problem.
Whilst I am all for cutting the running costs on my home, I certainly will be doing nothing to "save the planet" as the various eco warriors on these posts naively think we can have any influence on.
The WWF Scotland should stick to wildlife which is their remit.
32

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 12:18:21
'The Antarctic Peninsula is an area of rapid climate change and has warmed faster than anywhere else in the Southern Hemisphere over the past half century. Climate records from the west coast of the Antarctic Peninsula show that temperatures in this region have risen by nearly 3°C during the last 50 years – several times the global average and only matched in Alaska.'

- British Antarctic Survey.

33

eyeswider,

lol 31/03/2008 12:27:38
fred blogs posts links to alarmist warm-monger, vested interest, funded demagogue, Club of Rome, Mathusian, eugenicist, government backed, websites. (i.e. British Antarctic Survey)

As stated above, if you don't want the unbiased truth just read all of those type of sites and don't rely on your instincts or listen to your innate sense of right from wrong.

34

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 31/03/2008 12:29:55
Just goes to show that there is an effect known as Green Warming and despite extra taxation bleeding us white yet again to "reduce CO2 emissions", Scotland's emissions actually went up. Now there is some empirical evidence that letting the lunatics run the asylum is not a good idea.

Until there is clear proper scientific evidence and not the made-up kind like Al Gore's and Tony Blair's and that it is indeed anthropogenic and damaging why can't we grown-ups get on with sensible stuff like improving the economy and running our cars, whilst at the same time taking sensible precautions to manage scarce resources like fossil fuels and other sensible precautions like home inssulation? But let's stop this nany-state stuff that assumes the government or the WWF knows best, when demonstrably they wouldn't be able to run a whelk stall if their stats are anything to go by.

Proud to be a "denier".
35

eyeswider,

outside 31/03/2008 12:32:27

I wish I had said just half of this:

John Howard // January 15, 2008 at 12:24 am

"

"You can not prove that the planet is warming unusually.

You can not prove that temperature rise follows CO2 rise, let alone is caused by it.

You can not prove that CO2 is a major greenhouse gas.

You can not prove that humans add a significant percentage of the CO2.

You can not prove that the effect of CO2 is linear.

You can not prove that positive feedbacks are part of the global climate system or even plausible.

You can not measure the effect of the major greenhouse gas - water vapor.

You can not even prove that you can measure the temperature of the whole earth, let alone measure the history of its temperature accurately, let alone predict its future.

You can not prove that the ice caps are melting, nor that the seas are rising, nor that warmer seas contribute to more or more forceful storms.

This list is only the tip of the growing iceberg of questions which peer-reviewed literature is answering and which do not support the AGW theory. "

"

Way. To. Go. John.

The onus of proof is on the warmers as they claim to be the "settled" scientists.

The rest of us just have to look out the window or face toward the Sun.


36

Yada,

31/03/2008 12:36:33
#33
The Antarctic Peninsula represents about 1% of Antarctica. Over the rest of the continent the ice thickness is at record levels and the temperature has been falling consistently for the last 30 years at least. The warming in the peninsula is probably (nobody knows for certain) caused by ocean current changes.
Added to which there are three separate measures - HCrut, GISS and RSS - all of which record the biggest negative anomaly on record over the last 12 months (Jan-Jan) and no measurable atmospheric warming since 2001.
CO2 is NOT a pollutant but an essential part of the atmosphere. On a geological timescale the current CO2 level is low. All the scientific evidence is that CO2 increases follow temperature increases; they do not precede them. The average earth temperature was *at least* as high as it is now during the medieval warm period AND the Roman warm period.
WWF and Greenpeas and Fiends of the Earth are only interested in other people giving up their cars and their cheap flights, else why does it take 20,000 of them to swan off to fancy places like Bali or Rio (why not Scunthorpe?? or better still video-conferencing) in order to make a decison not to make a decision about something as arrogant as thinking we puny little beings can actually control the climate.
It's a lie; it's a con; and when we finally wake up to the fact that we have been fed this crap for the last 20 years we will probably be into the next ice age.
37

eyeswider,

more 31/03/2008 12:40:26

Volcanoes on the coast:
http://icecap.us/images/uploads/AntarcticVolcanoes2.jpg

from:
http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2008/01/22/surprise-theres-an-active-volcano-under-antarctic-ice/
38

traprain,

31/03/2008 12:52:12
OK Fred Bloggs & Guthrie.
Do you deny that the world has been cooling since 1998 and that the rate has been increasing with a 0.6C to 0.75C fall last year.
It takes some imagination to suppose that with increasing CO2 in the atmosphere and these daft hockey stick graphs that the earth has been cooling for 10 years. Unless we embrace the nonsense propounded in the next paragraph.
As for 13 Upbeat. Are you suggesting that guy Carnot got it wrong in 1824?
Seems the GWB have happily suspended the First Law of Thermodynamics.
39

truthsleuth,

31/03/2008 12:56:59
Of cours Home produced CO2 is likely to greater by a VERY SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT.
We LIVE IN OUR HOMES HOW OFTEN DO WE FLY

This comparison is ridiculous and is the TRAP the greens fall into.

How much CO2 does one hour in an aircraft produce
How much CO2 does one hour in a HOME produce
40

drew 33,

31/03/2008 13:19:15
No doubt about it the earth is getting cooler and it is caused by global warming. Sounds like the Two Ronnies that one.
"According to the US National Climatic Data Center (NCDC), the average temperature of the global land surface in January 2008 was below the 20th century mean (-0.02°F/-0.01°C) for the first time since 1982. Temperatures were also colder than average across large swathes of central Asia, the Middle East, the western US, western Alaska and south-eastern China. The NCDC reported that the cold conditions were associated with ‘the largest January snow cover extent on record for the Eurasian continent and for the Northern Hemisphere’. In some parts of China and central Asia, snow fell for the first time in living memory, the NCDC noted.’For the contiguous United States, the average temperature was 30.5°F (-0.83°C) for January, which was 0.3°F (0.2°C) below the 20th century mean and the 49th coolest January on record, based on preliminary data’.

Much of North America was also hit by the heaviest snowfall since the 1960s. Meanwhile, the US National Snow and Ice Data Centre found the January 2008 Northern Hemisphere sea ice extent, while below the 1979-2000 mean, was greater than the previous four years. And the January 2008 Southern Hemisphere sea ice extent was significantly above the 1979-2000 mean, ranking as the largest sea ice extent in January over the 30-year historical period."
41

Saoghal Beag,

31/03/2008 13:28:14
shame the thread has fallen into the very predicatable spatting between denialists and the rest.

Tweedmouth, another paste of the same old stuff, if only 0.001% of your body was arsenic we would all be releaved.

Why the denialists seem to think that a better insulated home with lower or no heating costs is somehow a bad thing just shows how stupid people can be. Do you want to save money on heating to spend elsewhere?

Agent99 the caps have been on the SCHRI grants from the very start. there are other technologies and rather than switching over to a wood stove you should consider all the alternatives adn their suitability for your own house. There are plenty people out there who will give impartial advice.
42

Pmonkey7,

31/03/2008 13:34:24
Eyeswider

Good posts, i found your link (http://icecap.us/images/uploads/ClimateChange_Nicol.pdf) particularly interesting, a bit heavy going but well worth a read.

43

Saoghal Beag,

31/03/2008 13:39:16
44 for many years there have been government support for upgrades of home insulation through the warmdeal in scotland. in addition to this there are grants availble from the utilities through the SOP schemes.
44

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 13:44:38
The planet is warming unusually.

Temperature rise follows CO2 rise.

CO2 is a major greenhouse gas.

Humans add a significant percentage of the CO2.

The effect of CO2 is linear.

Positive feedbacks are part of the global climate system.

You can estimate the effect of the major greenhouse gas - water vapor.

You can measure the temperature of the whole earth.

The ice caps are melting, the seas are rising and warmer seas contribute to more and more forceful storms.
45

Suzi B,

31/03/2008 13:49:43
Well, call me a denialist, because I'm not banking on global warming making Scotland sunny enough to warrant putting a solar water heater on my roof!
46

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 14:00:59
#33:

Hardly surprising that the Antarctic Peninsular is warming up. The British Antarctic Survey are 100% correct.

It has apparently got a volcano, or at least an area of geothermal activity under it. I think most things would warm up a tad if you stuck several billion tonnes of white hot molten rock underneath them. Don't you?
47

eyeswider,

roflmao 31/03/2008 14:03:55

#43 Pmonkey7

Thanks for reading it. It is long and detailed because that is what warm-mongers demand of refutation - as they rightfully should, just as we realists should expect proofs of their theoretical phantasms to be also.

However, I lost the best link I ever found :-(
It showed that ice water had 30(or 70) times more affinity for CO2 than N(itrogen) and 70(or 30) times more affinity for O(xygen) and that even under pressure (which it certainly isn't as soon as the core reaches the surface) there is liquid water present in ice at all times/depths/pressures. (the figures in brackets are where my fogginess is(bad memory)and why I don't usually post this)
The paper showed that CO2 levels over time in ice cores give bad results when attempting to correlate temps with CO2. One of the points made was that after 1000 years the CO2 content is smudged against the background therefore we have no reliable proxy in this regard. This struck me as reliable and true - hence my extreme annoyance at being unable to find it once more - all help appreciated.


48

Saoghal Beag,

31/03/2008 14:22:26
Suzi B, actually Scotland is a great place for solar water heater, very effective and used as far north as orkney. That's not so much denialism as just plain lack of understanding of the technology.
49

eyeswider,

lol at fred 31/03/2008 14:25:30
#46 fred bloggs

Play with the words all you like - I have yet to see you do anything else. You are just proving that you lack any understanding of what is actually a serious situation, your parrotlike mentality is incapable of absorbing detail and your disregard for investigative integrity leads me to believing you are really only 14 years of age . When you get an original thought do please post it. Your cut'n'paste trollism is actually amusing so please don't stop. Just don't expect me to rise to it.

By the way

#27 Guthrie - by way of apologizing for calling me a liar could you go through "freds" points in #46 and point out how each one is 180 degrees (i.e. completely, irrefutably) wrong. You may avoid the first point if you like - it is a little vague and I know that you, as a scientist, need meat with your potatoes.

Here is the link to the volcanism again:
http://icecap.us/images/uploads/AntarcticVolcanoes2.jpg

And NASAs .4C temp spread picture:
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages/images.php3?img_id=17257

You know, the one fred claims is from a "denialist" website.





50

TEEEVO,

ASHINGTON 31/03/2008 14:27:38
It seems to me that arguing over whether this years temperature is higher/lower than last years is unbelieveably pointless. We are talking about Planet Earth,it has been around for Billions of years, one year, decade, century, even millenia to another is not statistically worth a bean. But surely the middle course is probably the wise one. Lets try not to pollute the atmosphere with any more stuff than we have to, lets not use up ultimately finite resources any quicker than we have to, let 's keep investigating how/if the climate is changing and come up with solutions to how we manage those changes if they arise rather than arguing over whether or not the problem exists. King Canute was mentioned earlier. The deniers are like him as they will insist nothing is happening even when the rising water is up to their knees, whilst the climate changers are like him by saying the tide will turn if we only do this or do that. Neither is right.
51

Lock,

31/03/2008 14:29:04
More insulation to make sure the atmosphere is cooler is nonsensical. Surely the warmer Scotland is the less we need to heat our homes.

As for Robin Harper, absolutely typical. Seems that his enviromental crusading can go shaft itself as long as he gets to live in his Victorian house in Morningside.

Plus I would like to see some absolute values. How much does Scotland actually contribute to the total?
52

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 14:36:29
eyeswide:

Your claim about volcanoes in the Antarctic causing the recent warming is rubbish just like everything else you post:

http://www.usatoday.com/weather/resources/coldscience/avolcano.htm
53

Neil,

Glasgow 31/03/2008 14:40:59
Fred 46 says "The planet is warming unusually"

Indeed.
It is a most unusual sort of warming where it gets colder.

The rest of his statements are either untrue or unproven.

Soghal 42 says we sceptics are against insulated homes. While accepting that as the sort of approach to honesty to which she asopires I challenge her to produce anybody here who actually said it. The question is not whether, all other things being equal, it would be a good thing, or whether it would be so wonderfully god that we should spend 1 1/2 years of scotland's budget on it.

On such dishonsety is the entire eco-fascist cause dependent.
54

seanie,

31/03/2008 14:44:14
http://environment.about.com/od/globalwarmingandweather/a/2007_temp.htm

"2007 Second Warmest Year Despite Cooling Climate Conditions

Although 2007 did not post a new record high, the year stands out as being extremely warm despite several natural factors that usually cool the planet. El Niño conditions in the southern Pacific tend to increase the global average temperature, and yet the second half of 2007 saw the opposite—a La Niña pattern that would usually depress global temperature.

This is in stark contrast to conditions in 1998, now the third warmest year on record, when temperatures were boosted around 0.2 degrees Celsius by the strongest El Niño of the century. In addition to the moderate La Niña in 2007, solar intensity in 2007 was slightly lower than average because the year was a minimum in the 11-year solar sunspot cycle. The combination of these factors would normally produce cooler temperatures, yet 2007 was still one of the warmest years in human history. According to the Earth Policy Institute, this strongly suggests that the warming effect of increased greenhouse gas concentrations is now dwarfing other influences on the Earth’s climate."
55

seanie,

31/03/2008 14:44:44
http://environment.about.com/od/globalwarmingandweather/a/2007_temp.htm

"Official agencies from the U.S. to the U.K. have declared 2007 the second warmest year on record—and the hottest ever in the Northern Hemisphere—despite a variety of climate conditions that usually lead to cooler temperatures."

“The global average in 2007 was 14.73 degrees Celsius (58.5 degrees Fahrenheit)—the second warmest year on record, only 0.03 degrees Celsius behind the 2005 maximum."
56

seanie,

31/03/2008 14:48:47
The NASA/GISS data for global temperatures;

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/tabledata/GLB.Ts+dSST.txt

The ten hottest years worldwide since 1880 were:

2005, 2007, 1998, 2002, 2003, 2006, 2004, 2001, 1997, 1995.
57

seanie,

31/03/2008 15:04:57
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NasaNews/2008/2008011626028.html

"The eight warmest years in the GISS record have all occurred since 1998, and the 14 warmest years in the record have all occurred since 1990."
58

seanie,

31/03/2008 15:05:56
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/2007/

"The year 2007 tied for second warmest in the period of instrumental data, behind the record warmth of 2005, in the Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS) analysis. 2007 tied 1998, which had leapt a remarkable 0.2°C above the prior record with the help of the "El Niño of the century". The unusual warmth in 2007 is noteworthy because it occurs at a time when solar irradiance is at a minimum and the equatorial Pacific Ocean is in the cool phase of its natural El Niño-La Niña cycle."
59

Lock,

31/03/2008 15:10:01
What about before 1880?

60

seanie,

31/03/2008 15:17:17
http://www.realclimate.org/images/WA_RC_Figure1.jpg
61

Guthrie,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 15:20:23
Eyeswider #51- boy are you stupid. Thanks for the pic of the map of Antarctic volcanoes. You do know that Wilkins sound is not any where near any volcanoes in that map?

As for volcanoes raising air temps in the measured areas of Antarctica, that is not at all clear. first you have to demonstrate that volcanoes do increase air temps, then you have to correlate volcanic activity with temperature changes.

Then, what Fred said in #46 is entirely correct, for the 20th century. Naught fred forgot to specify that, I'm sure he'll let you slap his wrist if you ask nicely.
62

Saoghal Beag,

31/03/2008 15:22:00
55 Nelly who you calling she, want a bitch fight? see your resorting to mstyping my label as usual, tedious little man away play with yourself.
63

Guthrie,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 15:23:12
OOps, the Eo newsroom pic of warming Antarctica was of skin temperatures, i.e. the surface of the land or sea. However exactly the same critiscism applies, insofar as no correlation between vulcanism and sea temperature has been adduced.
64

traprain,

31/03/2008 15:24:30
46 fred bloggs
Well Fred and Guthrie are you climate change deniers. Can we have your response?

"Do you deny that the world has been cooling since 1998 and that the rate has been increasing with a 0.6C to 0.75C fall last year."
65

seanie,

31/03/2008 15:26:55
http://climateprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/hansen-t2.jpg
66

seanie,

31/03/2008 15:30:25
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/2007/

"The Southern Oscillation and the solar cycle have significant effects on year-to-year global temperature change. Because both of these natural effects were in their cool phases in 2007, the unusual warmth of 2007 is all the more notable. It is apparent that there is no letup in the steep global warming trend of the past 30 years (see 5-year mean curve in Figure 1a).

"Global warming stopped in 1998," has become a recent mantra of those who wish to deny the reality of human-caused global warming. The continued rapid increase of the five-year running mean temperature exposes this assertion as nonsense. In reality, global temperature jumped two standard deviations above the trend line in 1998 because the "El Niño of the century" coincided with the calendar year, but there has been no lessening of the underlying warming trend."
67

seanie,

31/03/2008 15:31:31
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/2007/Fig1_2007annual.gif
68

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 31/03/2008 15:43:03
#6 Rules, that's a mighty big oil tank if it costs £1500 to fill. How big is it?
69

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 31/03/2008 15:48:15
#13 Upbeat

Yes, but not convincing answers.
70

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 31/03/2008 16:08:25
#30 Fred

So you are labelling all scientists who dispute Global warming as not being "real" scientists? Is that really what you are saying?
71

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 31/03/2008 16:10:27
#31 eyeswider

My worry is that when the temperatures start (carry on) reducing, the GW propagandists will claim that all their efforts have paid off. They will never be convinced!
72

Upandunder,

31/03/2008 16:11:23
Whole carbon emissions nonsense is nothing but a left-wing plot to:

a) enable the government to interfere in ordinary people's lives
b) enable to govt to raise income and value-added taxes in order to fund their social engineering programmes

YES, the climate is getting warmer, this is for a huge number of reasons, not least that we are emerging from a very recent (in earth terms) ice age.
73

Jimmy Jillikers,

Glasgow 31/03/2008 16:12:41
Why do all of the environmentalists live in major cities and hate cars?

Perhaps it is because they can jump on a train or bus, or are perhaps within walking distance of their work and don't need to travel like the rest of us poor mortals.

74

Guthrie,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 16:12:58
Traprain #66- no, you are deluded. The Earth last year was, as expected, still showing a warming trend. 2 months of cold weather don't change that.
75

Wuerzburg,

Germany . 31/03/2008 16:17:15
I think barbecues is the answer . My barbecue alone must account for a quarter of world pollution , well Europes anyway . But there again I´m not very bright .
76

Guthrie,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 16:33:50
Upanunder #74- the gvt will tax you happily for any reason they please and you'll be able to do nothing about it. AGW is however quite real, whether or not you like it and whether or not the gvt makes any taxes out of it.
77

Upbeat,

31/03/2008 16:35:17
22 Eyes wider.

So ....for the second time .....YOUR point is ?

If you do not understand the point of the article you have posted here , perhaps you were ill advised to draw attention to it in the first place.

Incidentally do you know who the author is ? Do you know what any group of his mathematical peer group have said about his theory ?

No.... you don't ???

(somehow that doesn't surprise me ...)
78

Carolyn 1,

Woods Hole, MA USA 31/03/2008 16:37:38
Every summer the polar ice caps melt, so when an organization states the caps are melting it is true. What they need to stress is it's an annual occurrence.
(Arctic sea ice grows and declines seasonally ranging from an average minimum in September of 2.5 million square miles to an average winter maximum of 5.9 million square miles in March.)

The ice mass this year, from the time between the summer melt and now, has INCREASED 3.9% in density more than in the last 3 years, but that is still less than average.

Overall, the ice is 'younger' because of the previous years of increased summer melting, melts the 'old' ice and is replaced over the winter with 'new' ice.
Scientists refer to this new ice as thin ice as well as calling it figuratively 'being on thin ice'-

The melting in certain areas, in my opinion, is due to ocean currents changing and some, not all, being warmer due to many different causes including plate shifts, underwater volcanic heat release, solar activity, etc, - not global warming caused by people.

The ice is also shifting and traveling, along with the plates and ocean currents. NASA and NOAA expect new channels to open in the Northern Sea Route and Northwest Passage, which will be used by shipping. Therefore tests have to be done before these ships heat up the area even more and infuse the area with their pollutants.

Why are there no ongoing studies to prove or disprove that it is this continual shipping activity and expanding shipping lanes that are causing the increase summer ice melt???

Also when you throw around statistics on temperature trying to argue for or against global warming, it's not the air temperature,- it's the ocean temperature that is definitive
79

eyeswider,

lol 31/03/2008 16:37:47
#63 #65 Guthrie

Not so stupid as to think that Wilkins sound is in Antarctica. It is in Canada I believe. That is at the north of the globe.

The Wilkins ice shelf, however, seems to be right in the center of the two biggest concentrations of _known_ Antarctic volcanoes.

The much vaunted Argos buoy system shows actual ocean cooling:
http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=16098
If the trend was up we would never hear the end of this. It should be front page news.



You still have not read one word of:
http://icecap.us/images/uploads/ClimateChange_Nicol.pdf
have you?

Or are you not commenting because it is the definitive, scientific, bare-naked, clearcut proof that above 20ppmv CO2 has zero effect on global warming(sorry climate change lol) and that would be the last thing you need as I suspect that your funding relies on humanity causing same. Otherwise, shouldn't you be investigating stuff rather than spending all your time defending the spurious theory that .038% of our atmosphere is heating up the rest? It is work time after all. C'mon. You can tell us. You aren't really a scientist are you? Or are you a skiver?


80

Guthrie,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 16:46:26
Eyeswider- maybe you are looking at different maps from myself?

And you're calling me a skiver? As opposed to yourself, who appears never to have bothered to read the many hundreds of pages of information on climate change that are available from reputable scientists?
81

Carolyn 1,

Woods Hole, MA USA 31/03/2008 16:48:47
As for individuals having to bear the cost of green energy and a green environment, thats bullcr-p.

That's the government job.
The government's responsibility to the taxpayers is not to be the nanny and tell us what we can and cannot eat, they're not supposed to bail out some bank, their job is not to capture us speeding through a light before it changes at some intersection... the government's job is to provide me with security and infrastructure, not to be my nanny or the safety net for corporations.

It's my opinion that my tax money should be supplying me with the clean and green electricity to heat and cool my house and fuel my car battery. It's their responsibility to build the wind turbines, hyrdo plants, solar plants and geo-thermal.
82

Guthrie,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 16:52:55
Eyeswider- here's one error straight off, so tell me why I should read further:

"Applying Equation (5) to the temperature of the earth’s surface and to that in the greenhouse, each about 293 oK, it is found that the maximum wavelength in the spectrum of radiation from these sources is approximately m or roughly 10 µ"

The earths average temperature is actually about 15 degrees C, or 288K.
83

eyeswider,

more later 31/03/2008 16:55:33
#79 Upbeat

They are coming thick(pun intended) and fast(and loose) now aren't they?

It is by John Nicol and if I were to disclose where I was originally shown it I am afraid that some of the rabidly fundamentalist, dangerously misguided, blindly dogmatic, jackbooted people haters on this thread would be able to find _me_ - ain't gonna happen.

As to the point of the article, if you have read it doesn't it give you a warm glow to see the CO2/GHG (former) controversy laid to rest so elegantly, precisely and transparently? Does the open honesty of it's author give you hope for mankind? It even closes with an offer to amend the paper if anything is found to be in error(and he doesn't mean spelling mistakes either) - now show me where it says that in any paper the IPCC ever produced.

84

,

31/03/2008 16:55:57
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
85

rancid brown,

Eco-mentalist truth deniers 31/03/2008 17:06:31
"OK, you denialists. Explain why a 5000 square mile chunk of ice is about to break free of Antarctica:"

That's what ice does. Sheets of ice usually melt at the edges! The eco-mentalist crowd always forget to tell us that new ice is constantly being formed away from the coasts.

Vine yards used to grow in England, and this was because global temperatures used to be much higher. There weren't any SUVs or 4x4s in the Middle Ages, so explain please. Thought so, you can't, can you? How do you explain the increases in polar temperatures on other planets in our solar system?

Just accept that the earth is round, and CO2 is good for the planet.

Mars Melt Hints at Solar, Not Human, Cause for Warming, Scientist Says
Kate Ravilious
for National Geographic News
February 28, 2007

86

eyeswider,

:-) 31/03/2008 17:16:08
#80 #83 Carolyn 1

I think I love you. If you are who I think you are I must say I love your work too ;-)


#84 Guthrie - so a discrepancy (in your eyes) of 1/3 of 1% disbars a paper for you. Everything the IPCC has ever released is invalid in that case.

I quote you from above:
"no evidence to tie it in with the Wilkins sound ice."
I think Wilkins sound is not too far from Greenland.
That is a much larger error than John's alleged one(admittedly - only so far as you have read) He says he will take on board any criticism and I believe him.

Also your, and my, ideas on who is, and isn't, reputable differ wildly remember. I am in the camp that thinks people are wonderful and the world can support twice as many as we have now, easily and in luxury(compared to how most are living currently).
You....?

I have read a lot of paperwork recently on this subject and you know my opinion on most of it. The tide is turning and I am seeing more that makes sense to my instincts and disproves the carp that I have subjected myself to prior.




87

eyeswider,

again 31/03/2008 17:39:40
#Guthrie

Please do the author the courtesy of reading the whole paper before delivering critique. You never know, you could be heading straight over to the niceguys(read funded demagogues) at real climate with a juicy new treatise to shred ;-)
I haven't seen anyone on there pick up on this yet which is one reason I like it in spite of the fact that the maths goes over my head being as how I am stupid, misguided and a liar. Anything they ignore is bullets for the truth gun.

A list of "reputable scientists" would be very short in my estimations. Scientists live by funding. This is the same as saying people can be bought.

At the end of this fiasco there will be some very eggy-faced former climatologists, solar physicists, meteorologists, and many other ists who will be in danger of never being employed again in their chosen fields.

It is one thing saying "I thought I was right" when it costs nothing to be either right or wrong but when people have died as a direct result of policy that you supported, lied about to get funding, lied about to bolster political ideology, falsified findings for, tampered with data for, mislead governments for or deliberately hid information to propagate a lie.
A lie that may cost trillions of taxpayers hard-earned and kill/impoverish nations.

I would rather believe that humanity has not yet met a problem it hasn't been able to counter. And this is no problem.
The problem is a political not scientific one. Our rulers need more cash for their wars. Bend over.









88

traprain,

31/03/2008 17:41:44
Guthrie
"no, you are deluded. The Earth last year was, as expected, still showing a warming trend. 2 months of cold weather don't change that"
Is that the best you can come up with Guthrie? First resort to personal insult, the last bastion of the lost argument.You deny the facts confirmed by the world's four leading temperature monitors.
Weather does not change global temperatures, or are you another as has been indicated by another poster, in denial of the 1st Law of Thermodynamics? Where did you come up with your pathetic 2 months of cold weather? The global mean temperature has been trending down since 1998.
89

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 17:47:30
81: eyeswide - world renowned expert on global warming and genius says:

'Not so stupid as to think that Wilkins sound is in Antarctica. It is in Canada I believe. That is at the north of the globe.'

Wow, I'm impressed, Canada is in the north!

Does it not occur to you that there might be more than one Wilkins Sound?
90

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 17:53:44
Further to 91:

The Wilkins Ice Shelf is a rectangular ice shelf in Antarctica about 80 nautical miles long and 60 nautical miles wide (150 by 110 km). This feature occupies the central part of Wilkins Sound, from which it takes its name.
91

Neil,

Glasgow 31/03/2008 17:54:49
It has been noted that a very high proportion of those scientists most active in promoting scepticism (a term which should, at least in science, be a contradiction in terms) are emeritus professors ie retired & no longer subject to pressure from grant giving authorities. The statistical evidence for this is much greater than that claimed for scare stories like passive smoking or indeed global warming & does prove that such pressure is being exerted for political reasons.
92

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 18:03:37
81: eyeswide:

The paper (by one 'John Nicol') you link is on a denialist website devoted to picking holes in legitimate science on climate change. The paper has no references, states no allegiance and gives no affiliation or evidence of peer review.

It is therefore worthless.
93

eyeswider,

hahaha 31/03/2008 18:13:17
#94 fred bloggs bit like yourself then eh fred?

Never one to actually read anything to ascertain its true worth which comes from its intrinsic value rather than its point of issue. You should open your mind. Unlikely though - based on past experience.

94

Upbeat,

31/03/2008 18:14:04
89 Eyes wider

After wasting a whole day pontificating about how everybody has got it wrong about the current trend of Global climate...but not you ...You now post the real explanation about the link that you expected everyone else but you , to read and understand.

You cnfess that don't have a chance of understanding it yourself, and cannot vouch for the person that wrote it, or reveal where he gets his " funding".

You say you like it because " Anything they ignore is bullets for the truth gun."

But you don't even understand what it says.

Marvellous.

Now why not take the time to study before linking in something which you are obviously prepared to accept unread because the paper's conclusions appear to support your hopes and beliefs.

In fact all the paper appears to do is confirm in a most obscure and technical manner that the atmosphere is very complex, and aerosol mechanisims that may be at work there are by no means as straightforward as they might appear to those not familiar with the science.

The paper...BTW ....says very little about manmade global warming, or the effects of mankinds activities on the atmosphere.

You should be worried. But we can now move on, for you have been shown to be a clear victim of tehdnager inherent in hunting the internet to find something , anything, that appears to say what you hope. .

In # 13 I was advising people to take the trouble to familiarise themselves with as much of the whole of this topic as they can, without prejudging any of it. The subject of human activities , and the link of industrialisation and developemnet to local micro climates IS bigger than you imagine, and the conclusions you hope to draw are by no means as clear cut as you appear to wish..
95

seanie,

31/03/2008 18:16:26
#90 "The global mean temperature has been trending down since 1998."

http://environment.about.com/od/globalwarmingandweather/a/2007_temp.htm

"2007 Second Warmest Year Despite Cooling Climate Conditions

Although 2007 did not post a new record high, the year stands out as being extremely warm despite several natural factors that usually cool the planet. El Niño conditions in the southern Pacific tend to increase the global average temperature, and yet the second half of 2007 saw the opposite—a La Niña pattern that would usually depress global temperature.

This is in stark contrast to conditions in 1998, now the third warmest year on record, when temperatures were boosted around 0.2 degrees Celsius by the strongest El Niño of the century. In addition to the moderate La Niña in 2007, solar intensity in 2007 was slightly lower than average because the year was a minimum in the 11-year solar sunspot cycle. The combination of these factors would normally produce cooler temperatures, yet 2007 was still one of the warmest years in human history. According to the Earth Policy Institute, this strongly suggests that the warming effect of increased greenhouse gas concentrations is now dwarfing other influences on the Earth’s climate."

96

seanie,

31/03/2008 18:16:55
http://environment.about.com/od/globalwarmingandweather/a/2007_temp.htm

"Official agencies from the U.S. to the U.K. have declared 2007 the second warmest year on record—and the hottest ever in the Northern Hemisphere—despite a variety of climate conditions that usually lead to cooler temperatures."

“The global average in 2007 was 14.73 degrees Celsius (58.5 degrees Fahrenheit)—the second warmest year on record, only 0.03 degrees Celsius behind the 2005 maximum."
97

seanie,

31/03/2008 18:17:23
http://environment.about.com/od/globalwarmingandweather/a/2007_temp.htm

"Official agencies from the U.S. to the U.K. have declared 2007 the second warmest year on record—and the hottest ever in the Northern Hemisphere—despite a variety of climate conditions that usually lead to cooler temperatures."

“The global average in 2007 was 14.73 degrees Celsius (58.5 degrees Fahrenheit)—the second warmest year on record, only 0.03 degrees Celsius behind the 2005 maximum."
98

Upbeat,

31/03/2008 18:17:55
93 Neil.

Your assertion regarding the "Honesty" displayed by retired scientists, unless backed up by plenty of references, is worthless.

Name a few...if you can.
99

seanie,

31/03/2008 18:17:57
The NASA/GISS data for global temperatures;

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/tabledata/GLB.Ts+dSST.txt

The ten hottest years worldwide since 1880 were:

2005, 2007, 1998, 2002, 2003, 2006, 2004, 2001, 1997, 1995.
100

seanie,

31/03/2008 18:18:26
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/2007/

"The year 2007 tied for second warmest in the period of instrumental data, behind the record warmth of 2005, in the Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS) analysis. 2007 tied 1998, which had leapt a remarkable 0.2°C above the prior record with the help of the "El Niño of the century". The unusual warmth in 2007 is noteworthy because it occurs at a time when solar irradiance is at a minimum and the equatorial Pacific Ocean is in the cool phase of its natural El Niño-La Niña cycle."
101

seanie,

31/03/2008 18:19:09
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/2007/

"The Southern Oscillation and the solar cycle have significant effects on year-to-year global temperature change. Because both of these natural effects were in their cool phases in 2007, the unusual warmth of 2007 is all the more notable. It is apparent that there is no letup in the steep global warming trend of the past 30 years (see 5-year mean curve in Figure 1a).

"Global warming stopped in 1998," has become a recent mantra of those who wish to deny the reality of human-caused global warming. The continued rapid increase of the five-year running mean temperature exposes this assertion as nonsense. In reality, global temperature jumped two standard deviations above the trend line in 1998 because the "El Niño of the century" coincided with the calendar year, but there has been no lessening of the underlying warming trend."
102

seanie,

31/03/2008 18:20:18
What was that?

"Global warming stopped in 1998," has become a recent mantra of those who wish to deny the reality of human-caused global warming. The continued rapid increase of the five-year running mean temperature exposes this assertion as nonsense."
103

seanie,

31/03/2008 18:25:47
"The continued rapid increase of the five-year running mean temperature exposes this assertion as nonsense."
104

seanie,

31/03/2008 18:27:29
http://climateprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/hansen-t2.jpg

Oh look.

Since 1998 the global five year mean temperature has continued to rise.

105

Guthrie,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 18:35:19
Traprain #90- read this and be educated. It demonstrates how there is no basis for claiming that warming stopped in 1998.

http://tamino.wordpress.com/2007/08/31/garbage-is-forever/

If you did actually know anything about climate, which you patently do not, you would know that what matters is the trend. Can you tell me over which period is is best to take it?
106

seanie,

31/03/2008 18:42:09
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/Fig.A2.lrg.gif

Look at that global five year mean.

107

Guthrie,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 18:48:58
All you need to know about the place eyeswider got his john nicol essay from is that it is a belief tank that employs the usual suspects:
http://icecap.us/index.php/go/experts

The problem is that some of them might sometimes do some good science, but have terminally discredited themselves on climate issues over the years.
108

seanie,

31/03/2008 19:01:13
I sat around doing not much at all.
109

seanie,

31/03/2008 19:10:55
You're welcome.

Should you wish to make a donation I have a PO Box No.
110

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 19:26:24
110>

I bought some shares in MMGW (Mass Megawatts Wind Power Inc):

http://www.massmegawatts.com/
111

Guthrie,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 19:42:27
Dave- I worked towards (it is a long, long road, we use megawatthours of electricity) improving my companies efficiency, and also got rid of a bunch of pallets for recycling.
112

Saoghal Beag,

31/03/2008 20:04:05
95 Nil i see you continue to squabble about GW when the article is about our own homes being a significant source of pollution. The solution is to build better homes and you try to distract that argument away from that with all your usual denialist wittering.

As for passive smoke being no hazard, what you are saying is that Polyaromatichydrocarbons and other toxins are only a threat if breathed in directly from a cigaret. That demonstrate you absolute lack of any science and your total conviction in political agendas. Next thing you will be telling us its quite safe to stick a uranium rod up your back end, no doubt you have tried it.
113

Jim P,

31/03/2008 21:37:26
Useless things and the growing, processing, transporting, consumption/use thereof:

Wine, beer, whisky and all other forms of alcohol
Tobacco in all its forms
Soft drinks and other sugar products
Confectionary in all its forms
Bottled water in places where good water is plentiful
Most pills and pharmaceuticals

All above are total waste of resources. I'm sure you can think of others.
114

Sanny,

Portugal 31/03/2008 23:00:24
Why is it that no one looks at the upside of the so called Global Warming and it does have an upside!

Face facts, the climate, like all of nature, is in a state of constant change. You don’t have to look very far back for proof – the Mediaeval Warm Period or the Little Ice Age. We’re still recovering from the latter. As for the detrimental effects of CO2? If you look at the CO2 levels during the last glacial period it was 14 time higher than today.It was high CO2 levels that gave rise to the Carboniferous Age. All vegetation is dependent of CO2 to grow!!

If you look at the long term cycle of glacial and interglacial periods, we should becoming to the end of the current interglacial period and entering into a new Ice Age sometime in the next 1,000 years. They were aware of this in the 60’s and 70’s and the Club Of Rome (a group of eminent scientists of the day) were predicting the dire consequences of a new Ice Age. Just like today’s lot the other way round and equally wrong.

Global Cooling brings cold and dry conditions across the earth and reduces the arable areas and the length of the growing season and is not conducive to sustaining warm blooded life. Whereas, Global Warming brings warm and wet conditions and whilst there may be some loss of arable areas due to rising sea levels there will also be a compensatory exposure of new arable areas no longer frozen and the growing season will be longer. These are conditions more conducive to warm blooded life.

Let all the Green Cassandra’s crawl back under their stone and let the rest of us enjoy the pleasant weather.
115

Sanny,

Upwey 31/03/2008 23:03:45
119 Jim P
Why stop there Jim? Execute anyone who is shown to be enjoying life. Although I doubt if you would need to; life on your planet would be so miserable we'd probably all top ourselves!!
116

seanie,

31/03/2008 23:40:12
"If you look at the CO2 levels during the last glacial period it was 14 time higher than today."

Drivel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Vostok-ice-core-petit.png
117

eyeswider,

ok then 31/03/2008 23:44:11
Johnny come latelys may not know that Guthrie, fred, Slioch and I have crossed swords for nearly six months now.

I will continue the weather forecast I have been giving along the way.

Enjoy the next 2 weeks of relative mildness. It will get cold again mid April with frosts, maybe widespread. It will remain cold until the last week in May. June/July - colder than we are used to. August about average for UK. Warm Sept, Oct, Nov. But look out. Next winter will be colder than this last was.

As I have said all along - very cold very soon. 2010 will be warmer than this and next year but after then - cold.

The Sun did it. Always. No amount of human vanity can change that fact. CO2 is, and always has been, innocent.

And today's cut'n'paste champion is.... seanie

C. Ya.



118

Miss Jean Brodie,

31/03/2008 23:44:55
Die ya b@st@rds! and leave earth to get better with the next life form!
119

seanie,

31/03/2008 23:45:34
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/2007/



"Global warming stopped in 1998," has become a recent mantra of those who wish to deny the reality of human-caused global warming. The continued rapid increase of the five-year running mean temperature exposes this assertion as nonsense. In reality, global temperature jumped two standard deviations above the trend line in 1998 because the "El Niño of the century" coincided with the calendar year, but there has been no lessening of the underlying warming trend."
120

seanie,

01/04/2008 00:05:35
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/2007/

"La Niña cooling in the second half of 2007 (Figure 2) is about as intense as the regional cooling associated with any La Niña of the past half century, as shown by comparison to Plate 9 in Hansen et al. (Hansen et al. 1999) and updates to Plate 9 on the GISS web site. Effect of the current La Niña on global surface temperature is likely to continue for at least the first several months of 2008. Based on sequences of Pacific Ocean surface temperature patterns in Plate 9, a next El Niño in 2009 or 2010 is perhaps the most likely timing. But whatever year it occurs, it is a pretty safe bet that the next El Niño will help carry global temperature to a significantly higher level."

"Based on these considerations, it is unlikely that 2008 will be a year with truly exceptional global mean temperature. These considerations also suggest that, barring the unlikely event of a large volcanic eruption, a record global temperature clearly exceeding that of 2005 can be expected within the next 2-3 years."
121

Guthrie,

Edinburgh 01/04/2008 08:17:16
Sanny #120- all of these positive outcomes you describe are possible, yet evidence for them actually occuring is difficult to find. This is because weather patterns shift, bring more rain to some areas, and less to others, eg the American midwest. IN that area, things will get so hotter and dryer that they will be unable to grow their staple crops. In other areas of the world, rice production will be affected due to higher temperatures. THings will be ok for a few years, as the temperature climbs up within the natural variation limits of the past couple of thousand years, but once we are beyond that, as we may already be, we will be in completely uncharted territory. This should scare you- never before has an industrial society on this planet with all its infrastructure, trained people, equipment etc, tried to deal with widespread shifts in farming, sea productivity, and lifestyle.
122

eyeswider,

work 01/04/2008 10:21:11
The cut and paste is for seanie and the extra "" are for fred the pedant

Just google a unique phrase to find the original article... and the IPCC article also....


"

".....a remarkable interview involving the co-host of Counterpoint, Michael Duffy and Jennifer Marohasy, a biologist and senior fellow of Melbourne-based think tank the Institute of Public Affairs. Anyone in public life who takes a position on the greenhouse gas hypothesis will ignore it at their peril.

Duffy asked Marohasy: "Is the Earth stillwarming?"

She replied: "No, actually, there has been cooling, if you take 1998 as your point of reference. If you take 2002 as your point of reference, then temperatures have plateaued. This is certainly not what you'd expect if carbon dioxide is driving temperature because carbon dioxide levels have been increasing but temperatures have actually been coming down over the last 10 years."

Duffy: "Is this a matter of any controversy?"

Marohasy: "Actually, no. The head of the IPCC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change) has actually acknowledged it. He talks about the apparent plateau in temperatures so far this century. So he recognises that in this century, over the past eight years, temperatures have plateaued ... This is not what you'd expect, as I said, because if carbon dioxide is driving temperature then you'd expect that, given carbon dioxide levels have been continuing to increase, temperatures should be going up ... So (it's) very unexpected, not something that's being discussed. It should be being discussed, though, because it's very significant."

"

123

Guthrie,

Edinburgh 01/04/2008 12:22:09
Marohasy is lying as usual. She takes the warmest year in the 90's, then takes a direct line to 10 years later. This is illegitimate, and typical denialist tactics. If she took a 10 year line from 1997 to 2007, it would show definite warming, or if she took 8 years from 1999 to 2007, it would also show warming. Saying that temperaatures have been coming down in the last 10 years is a lie, pure and simple.

124

eyeswider,

again 01/04/2008 13:59:11

I see.

"

"Rajendra Pachauri, the head of the U.N. Panel that shared the 2007 Nobel Peace Prize with former U.S. Vice President Al Gore, said he would look into the apparent temperature plateau so far this century.

"One would really have to see on the basis of some analysis what this really represents," he told Reuters, adding "are there natural factors compensating?" for increases in greenhouse gases from human activities."

"

_the apparent temperature plateau_

_he told Reuters_


It must be wonderful to live in a world where anyone who disagrees with you is a liar, or funded by oil barons, or deluded, or stupid.


125

eyeswider,

agog 01/04/2008 14:30:08
Could anyone find and point to the results from the much vaunted Argo buoy system.

I wouldn't want to post an address that came from a "denialist" "lying" "glossy website owning" "oil funded" "worthless" type of link like this one:

http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/columnists/story.html?id=8926a1d3-f43f-4f8b-811d-0a0daa3e1012&k=39580

I would rather see the results of this survey (that cost millions, was 75% complete in 2005 and completed in Nov 2007 and, rumor has it, is now being disowned as it doesn't conform to the religion of MMGW AGW ACC) from somewhere like its owners maybe - or NOAA.

The reasons I have to ask? It would seem that no-one is showing. The deployment site, NOAA or anywhere I can find. Maybe it is being disowned. Maybe not. I have failed to find all the triumphant elation that should accompany their findings. Or the findings.

http://www.argo.ucsd.edu


126

eyeswider,

less is more 01/04/2008 16:03:27
"

The IPCC's Fourth Assessment Report (4AR), released in 2007, found that "current global model studies project that the Antarctic ice sheet will remain too cold for widespread surface melting."


Prof David Vaughan, a glacier expert at the British Antarctic Survey, said: "There are a lot of differences from year to year in the Antarctic. Some climate stations show warming and some, like the one at the South Pole, show cooling. The jury is still out on what is going to happen."

"

Oh Yeah? Tell this lot of

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2008/20080313_coolest.html

http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/climate_change/001363update_on_falsificat.html

http://www.energytribune.com/articles.cfm?aid=828

http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/2352

http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/images/stories/papers/reprint/schulte_two_colmun_fomat.pdf

http://www.worldclimatereport.com/index.php/2008/02/27/antarctica-ain%e2%80%99t-cooperating/

http://www.worldclimatereport.com/index.php/category/climate-changes/polar/antarctic/

http://www.klaus.cz/klaus2/asp/clanek.asp?id=XpAV39wT4A32

http://www.nzbr.org.nz/documents/publications/TrotterLawson2007.pdf

I would put money on those nice people at realclimate have "debunked" all the above - using their government funding to produce political results. These people are sick, twisted and venal. They have continually proved that they will do anything for money - up to, and including the endorsement of policy that will kill, through starvation, many millions of people.

127

Guthrie,

Edinburgh 01/04/2008 16:21:20
What on earth are you ranting on about, eyeswider? Warming from 1998 onwards is entirely compatible with something of a plateau in the 21st century, unless you think the century begins in 1998...

If you look at the temperature record, you can see several ups and downs and plateaus similar to the past 7 years.
128

Guthrie,

Edinburgh 01/04/2008 16:21:31
What on earth are you ranting on about, eyeswider? Warming from 1998 onwards is entirely compatible with something of a plateau in the 21st century, unless you think the century begins in 1998...

If you look at the temperature record, you can see several ups and downs and plateaus similar to the past 7 years.
129

eyeswider,

ah well 01/04/2008 21:20:56


http://www.onenewsnow.com/Politics/Default.aspx?id=74109

It must be wonderful to live in a world where anyone who disagrees with you is a liar, or funded by oil barons, or deluded, or stupid.

130

Guthrie,

Edinburgh 03/04/2008 11:54:43
Yes, it must be, eyeswider, you keep giving us the impression you enjoy it lots.
131

Reckless,

Corrupt EU, lying globalist IPCC 08/04/2008 13:31:03
Expert: "We're brainwashing our children" about global warming

Bob Swanson and Doyle Rice
USA Today
Tuesday, April 8, 2008

Another post from guest blogger Rick Neale of Florida Today, from the National Hurricane Conference in Orlando:

William Gray, the well-known Colorado State University hurricane forecaster, routinely uses the annual National Hurricane Conference as a platform to bash global warming. In a statement to Florida Today, Gray argued that the scientific consensus on global warming is bogus — and "a mild form of McCarthyism has developed toward those scientists who do not agree" that mankind is in danger.

"We are also brainwashing our children on the warming topic. We have no better example than Al Gore's alarmists and inaccurate movie which is being shown in our schools and being hawked by warming activists with little or no meteorological-climate background," Gray wrote.

 

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