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As bills spiral, Scots are told: 'You've never had it so good'

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Published Date: 01 July 2008
SCOTLAND's most senior UK cabinet minister has come under attack after claiming that Scots have "never had it so good" under more than a decade of Labour rule at Westminster.
Des Browne, the Scottish Secretary, was accused of being "out of touch" with ordinary people at a time of soaring fuel, food and household energy bills.

He had claimed that the level of Westminster's investment in the Scottish Parliament had doubled to £30 billion a year since the late Donald Dewar became First Minister in 1999.

Mr Browne said: "Scotland, in that sense, has never had it so good." He added: "There can be no dispute about it. Scotland gets its share."

The phrase entered political folklore in 1957 when the then Tory Prime Minister, Harold Macmillan, claimed the nation was more prosperous than ever and said: "Let us be frank about it – most of our people have never had it so good."

As he outlined the activities of the London-based Scotland Office in the last year, Mr Browne's opponents seized upon his remarks, as evidence that the Government has lost touch with voters.

Last week another Scottish minister, transport minister Tom Harris, was criticised after asking why everyone was "so bloody miserable".

Mr Browne's spokesman stressed that the Scottish Secretary's remarks were focused on the amount of funding Holyrood received for public services.

He said: "Des has never said that hard-working families in Scotland are not feeling the pinch. He is saying that in public spending terms, Scotland has never had it so good, both in terms of the quantum amount of money and the rate of increase."

But David Mundell, the Tory shadow Scottish Secretary, told The Scotsman that Mr Browne's remarks "would appear quite out of touch with the lives of many Scots".

Mr Mundell added: "Whenever we think whether Scotland had it good or not, people take into account far more than the finances under the Barnett formula (which allocates a share of additional UK public expenditure to Scotland].

"They'll take into account the cost of heating, their mortgages and fuel costs. I don't think there will be many people in Scotland who'll think they have never had it so good."

Angus Robertson, the SNP leader at Westminster, said only the UK Treasury had "never had it so good" – by gaining a £6 billion windfall from higher North Sea oil revenues.

He said: "Des Browne's comments underline how desperately out of touch Labour is with real people. Scottish families and businesses are struggling to make ends meet as the cost of food, fuel and energy spiral."

But Ian Davidson, a Labour MP and member of the Scottish Affairs committee that Mr Browne addressed last week, said the government was right to remind voters of its achievements since 1997.

Mr Davidson said: "It's a bit like: 'What have the Romans done for us?' Des's phrase, if it promotes a discussion and analysis of what the financial position is, will be to our good.

"We have tended to some extent to rest on our laurels and not spelled out what we have done. It's quite clear that the Scottish Parliament has never been as well financed as it is now."

But he admitted that not everybody may have noticed the extra investment. "A lot of money went on increased salaries for low-paid NHS staff, which the public as such don't necessarily see," he said. "A lot of it went on renovations and improvements and new buildings, which after a while you take for granted.

"People enjoy that at the time but they won't necessarily see that as something they wake up to in the morning with a song in their heart. So much of the money that has been spent has been on public goods, whereas they're feeling the squeeze in their private finances. The improvement in public services is at one remove."

According to the Scotland Office, funding from Westminster for devolved matters has increased from £12.984 billion in 1998-9 to £30.148 billion by 2010-11.

Separate Holyrood figures show the amount spent per person amounted to £9,751 in Scotland – £1,107 more than the UK average of £8,644.

The differences in spending are biggest in areas such as health, where Scots receive £1,780 per person and transport, where £173 was spent compared with £328 across the UK.

Mr Browne's spokesman insisted: "In public spending terms, there has never been such a fast increase in peacetime."

Analysis: Benefits for public services

WHEN Harold Macmillan, the then Tory Prime Minister, remarked in 1957 that "most of our people have never had it so good", he was referring to the post-war prosperity that was unseen in his lifetime.

Des Browne, the Scottish Secretary, chose to adapt the phrase to explain what he sees as massive and sustained investment in Scotland's public services from the Labour government since 1997.

The devolved administration in Holyrood is in line to receive £30 billion a year by 2010-11 – more than double the figure when the Scottish Parliament began business in 1999.

"There can be no dispute about it," Mr Browne told the Scottish affairs committee. "Scotland always gets its share… Public spending in Scotland has essentially doubled since Donald Dewar was the First Minister. Scotland, in that sense, has never had it so good."

But if that is the case, ask Mr Browne's critics, then why does Scotland not feel like the land of milk and honey? Most Scots will feel themselves detached from the wealth associated with City high-flyers in London. Around towns and cities there remain run-down council estates, parks and public spaces lacking love and attention and many charity shops in deserted town centres.

And what, too, of the general economic downturn that has left motorists, shoppers and homeowners watching the pounds clock up as they pay for weekly essentials?

The answer, say Mr Browne's supporters, is that the record investment has been in public services. Think back to the situation in the mid-1990s for comparison. How many schools and hospitals have been rebuilt or refurbished since then? Hundreds, according to Labour.

Public-sector workers, from hospital cleaners to GPs, have benefited, too, through larger pay packets. Scotland's infrastructure has seen sustained investment over the past decade, but after a while it goes unnoticed. Unlike that last costly visit to the petrol station.

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 30 June 2008 9:56 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Labour Party
 
1

subrosa,

01/07/2008 00:05:25
What a fool that man is. Doesn't he realise that 13 Scots have been killed in Afgahnistan this month? How can he make comments such as this when east Glasgow has the worst record in Europe for poverty and social problems?

Really I can't believe it, but then again, we knew they'd try the 'tell them rubbish long enough and they'll believe it' tactic.

I'm off to email the fool to express my disgust. I won't hold my breath for a reply.
2

subrosa,

01/07/2008 00:05:32
What a fool that man is. Doesn't he realise that 13 Scots have been killed in Afgahnistan this month? How can he make comments such as this when east Glasgow has the worst record in Europe for poverty and social problems?

Really I can't believe it, but then again, we knew they'd try the 'tell them rubbish long enough and they'll believe it' tactic.

I'm off to email the fool to express my disgust. I won't hold my breath for a reply.
3

,

01/07/2008 00:06:01
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4

,

01/07/2008 00:09:44
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5

Highland Mighty©,

01/07/2008 00:11:28
Don't forget that we have been receiving our full geographic share of oil revenues for the past 19 years and have spent more than we have earnt since at least 1979 (can't find records before that!).

The SNP and their young nats have been claiming the nasty, nasty UK has been stealing all our oil, trying to get us to hate the union...

...but Salmond's and Swinney's very own GERS proved that they were all lying and that we have been getting our full share all along!

Shame on you, Salmond and your boys. Shame on you.
6

Senga Jean,

01/07/2008 00:14:15
Who is AM2 and why is his car so important. The story is not about him. What?
7

Senga Jean,

01/07/2008 00:16:38
Why is Highland Mighty talking nonsense?. Have I entered a parallel universe where lies become truth?
8

Highland Mighty©,

01/07/2008 00:19:07
8. Do make the effort and read the latest GERS from no other than your beloved Leader.

It's all in there.

Ayrshire Scot (the original one) also very kindly provided the records showing that dreaded subsidy from the rest of the UK to Scotland stretching all the way back to 1989.
9

Highland Mighty©,

01/07/2008 00:23:28
Have any of the nats noticed how much NS oil production has dropped since 1999?

According to the RBS Oil and Gas Index, oil production has fallen about 10% a year from its peak of 2.9m barrels per day, to just 1.2m bpd in January this year.

That's a 60% drop in just nine years.

Does Salmond seriously expect us to rely on this for our future??

(And didn't Salmond Himself help draw up this Index?)
10

ThomasP,

01/07/2008 00:25:58
5 Highland Mighty.

You are an idiot.

When the oil was discovered Scotland seen unemployment sky rocket as our Industries were virtually wiped out.

Scotland never has benefited from our own oil.
11

Highland Mighty©,

01/07/2008 00:27:23
13. Ah, resorting to that good old nat belief that 'abuse is sufficient substitute for the truth'.

Do some research for once.
12

Conan the Librarian™,

01/07/2008 00:29:30
13
ThomasP, this is not the real(ly) obnoxious HM, but a fakie who has a serious mental health problem.
Note the "©".
13

Conan the Librarian™,

01/07/2008 00:32:10
14
You seem to like it though, it's "healthy", if mis-spelled.
14

ThomasP,

01/07/2008 00:32:49
#5

I know. That is why I said they were an idiot.

Then I decided to mention our own oil reserves paid for the unemployed when the Tories were in power.

Our own oil wealth could of transofrmed our out of date Industries and made then world class but we didn't go down that path.
15

ThomasP,

01/07/2008 00:42:18
"But David Mundell, the Tory shadow Scottish Secretary, told The Scotsman that Mr Browne's remarks "would appear quite out of touch with the lives of many Scots"."

It takes a Tory to defend Scotland...it REALLY does show how out of touch Labour is.

"ccording to the Scotland Office, funding from Westminster for devolved matters has increased from £12.984 billion in 1998-9 to £30.148 billion by 2010-11."

Prices do increase. I would expect the amount of money different if tens years past.

"eparate Holyrood figures show the amount spent per person amounted to £9,751 in Scotland – £1,107 more than the UK average of £8,644."

London actually gets more paid per head then Scotland. This part is misleading it implies Scots are much better off then those in England but London gets more money.
16

Vivas,

Edinburgh 01/07/2008 00:51:48
Whats the problem ? Don't we all have housekeepers up here who can be taxied about to do our food shopping for us ??? Ungrateful bassas the lot o yiz !
17

,

01/07/2008 00:54:42
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18

Highland Mighty©,

01/07/2008 00:57:57
18. Wow, where do I begin!?

1. UK GDP growth over past ten years was about 2-3% a year.
Holyrood budget growth over past ten years was about 9% a year.

2. London paid around £90bn in taxes last year (no, Corporation Tax does NOT count towards its 'regional' total).

Total public spending in London was £75bn last year.

So, in comparison to the SNP's £2.7bn deficit (or even their bizarre £837m 'surplus'), London has a £15bn surplus.

Strange how you don't reveal these figures in your....er, 'comparison'.
19

,

01/07/2008 00:59:16
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20

,

01/07/2008 01:01:22
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21

Conan the Librarian™,

01/07/2008 01:01:31
21
Wow, when will you end.
22

Traquir , Alba,

01/07/2008 01:03:15
Who Cares what these sycophants say nobody
believes them any more.

I recommend that nationalists concentrate their energies on the Glasgow East by-election. As entertaining as the latest Scottish Labour
side shows of the Scotland Office
or another leadership election
might me I am going to largely ignore it.
I really do not believe it
will make one iota of difference which of these
sycophants emerges as leader nor does
it matter what comes out of the mouths of
the Scotland Office puppets.

I would suggest as a first step people better understand the local area within Glasgow East
to fully appreciate the problems and needs
of the electors and how
best improvements can be made for them. A good initial
start would be to contact local SNP councillors to better understand what help they need and what the true
situation is on the ground since no doubt we will
not learn it directly from the Scottish newspapers.

Some SNP councillors within or close to the Glasgow
East constituency are :

. Jennifer Dunn (SNP, East Centre):
threetargets.blogspot.com
. David McDonald (SNP, Bailleston): notworkingfortheclampdown.blogspot.com
. Alison Thewliss (SNP, Calton):
bellgrovebelle.blogspot.com
. Grant Thoms (SNP, North East):
tartanhero.blogspot.com

It is interesting to note that these
young, passionate and energetic councillors
are very different from the typical Glasgow
City Councillors who are
described in the book "Halls Of Infamy" which
Glasgow City Hall is trying to ban :

"The majority of Glasgow's councillors are overweight, many are obese. They do little exercise and go everywhere in council limos"

see -tinyurl.com/4dt239 & tinyurl.com/4ovflt
23

Traquir , Alba,

01/07/2008 01:03:26
cont.

After five decades ruling Scotland, Labour have become
deeply corrupt, sycophantic Westminster puppets and
faux Socialists who have no principals left. They have
voted for wars, WMD (Trident) and even praised
Thatcher. In between they have created appalling
conditions in areas such as Glasgow East and if
they had any morals they would be hanging their
heads in shame and apologising to the Scottish
people for the abject poverty and loss of hope in areas
which are more like Eastern Europe rather than an oil
rich Western democracy.

The response from Des Browne just shows what
low lifes these people are :

"these people have been represented at a Council, Westminster and latterly Scottish Parliamentary level for generations by the Labour Party. I think you will find that they know what side their bread is buttered on."

Scotland needs to be rid of this Labour parasite
and Glasgow East will be instrumental in getting
rid of them and perhaps as a bonus Maggie Broon also.

Saor Alba
24

ThomasP,

01/07/2008 01:04:07
21 Highland Mighty.

London is not in a surplus. The London Olympics is having to be paid for by other parts of the UK.

25

Soosider,

Glasgow 01/07/2008 01:05:07
Dear ow dear ow dear, here we go again the same old tripe trotted out. All these points have been analysed
and shot down so many times, I really cannot be bothered going over them again. GERS does exactly what it says on the tin it is the Government Expenditure and Revenue in Scotland, it is all but impossible to use them to make any meaningful comparison with any other part of the UK. Why because the statistics are not gathered in the same way in any other part of the UK. To even begin to do so you have to start making assumptions about what to count in and what to count out, additionally the government and local authority remits are not the same this leads to different budget streams that once again lead to assumptions having to be made to even begin to make comparisons, comparisons are then very unreliable.
I expect that the posts here will fill up with loads of stats and interpretations.
The choice as far as I can see it is very simple, do you believe that Scotland is a nation, if so why do you not believe it should be running its own affairs? Its not about stats its about belief.
26

Conan the Librarian™,

01/07/2008 01:06:37
22
Completely hatstand.

27
If you wok it, it can last till New Year.
27

,

01/07/2008 01:11:13
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28

Highland Mighty©,

01/07/2008 01:12:15
31. Again, London surplus for just ONE year: £15bn.

Total cost of the Olympics: £9bn.

You were saying?
29

ThomasP,

01/07/2008 01:13:08
36 Richard1.

Then England should become Independent and leave Scotland alone.
30

ThomasP,

01/07/2008 01:13:52
38 Highland Mighty.

The final price is not going to be 9 billion.

It is already around 20 bill and expected to rise further.
31

Highland Mighty©,

01/07/2008 01:14:35
39. But the majority don't want that.

Damn that pesky 'democracy'!
32

ThomasP,

01/07/2008 01:15:34
41 Highland Mighty.

There has been no referendum. Not everyone has a had a chance to voice their opinion so therefore there can't be a majority.
33

Highland Mighty©,

01/07/2008 01:19:04
40. Source?

And £20bn is still only 16 months of London's surplus, isn't it.

You nats complain about the UK stealing Scotland's non-existant surplus but you begrudge London keeping its real surplus.

'Hypocrisy', anyone?
34

Conan the Librarian™,

01/07/2008 01:19:51
38
£9Bn?
And growing.

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

It is strange how all the unionistas, think oil is totally worthless...

...and whisky is spurned the whole world over...

...Yet these things are taxed in London, not Scotland...
35

Highland Mighty©,

01/07/2008 01:21:33
44. Well, if you want Scottish Government figures, you go to the Scottish Government site....
36

ThomasP,

01/07/2008 01:21:39
45 Highland Mighty.

I shall leave that to you to learn.

Ken Livingstone stated that Londoners would not be asked to pay more though and money has been diverted from other parts of the UK to help pay the costs.
37

Conan the Librarian™,

01/07/2008 01:22:20
37
You certainly know a lot about sphincters.

Go and pull yours over your head again.

You know you want to.
38

Highland Mighty©,

01/07/2008 01:24:21
46. It's all in the SNP's GERS! So bored with you idiots bringing up the same old lies which have been repeatedly discredited.

GERS shows Scotland's accounts in detail and it shows a £2.7bn deficit, in line with all previous GERS.

Is the SNP GERS now untrustworthy?
39

ThomasP,

01/07/2008 01:24:27
50 Richard1.

I have not mentioned anything about subsidising London.

What does Labour and the Tories say?

We share the rewards and the costs?

In theory then no one does subsidise anyone...
40

ThomasP,

01/07/2008 01:24:59
51 Highland Mighty.

Yes.

GERS is never perfect.
41

ThomasP,

01/07/2008 01:25:35
53 Richard1.

Just wait till the referendum comes. If the Union wins then you can make that claim. If not then you know where to go.
42

Highland Mighty©,

01/07/2008 01:26:50
48. Well, it's THEIR money, isn't it! LOL!

They are claiming back THEIR OWN MONEY FROM THE REST OF THE UK!

Why can't you grasp this?!

Pretend it's the Edinburgh Olympics and pretend it's Scotland that has a £15bn annual surplus....do you understand it now?
43

Highland Mighty©,

01/07/2008 01:28:13
56. So this is another discredited government report, is it?!

LOL! Brilliant!

If it disagrees with the 'Facts According to Alex', then it's "discredited"!

You lot are a joke!
44

ThomasP,

01/07/2008 01:28:25
57 Highland Mighty.

Again.

Labour and the Conservatives state...

In our Union we share the rewards and share the costs...

London is not sharing the rewards or the costs.
45

ThomasP,

01/07/2008 01:30:47
58 Richard1.

Pathetic. What type of attitude is that...

Even if it was true it is absolutly disgusting to simply admitt and accept that.
46

Conan the Librarian™,

01/07/2008 01:33:08
51
All Statistics are untrustworthy.(see my post)

Anyone with an axe to grind can find a favourable angle for their point of view and vice versa.

I thought you were a fakie, but your use of "idiot", "discredited" and "GERS" prove it is you.

Or you are a Scotsman censorbot...

Why the "©", by the way?
47

Highland Mighty©,

01/07/2008 01:33:43
60. Wow!

I can't type this slowly, so you'll have to read it slowly, okay?

London's £15bn annual surplus goes to the Treasury and is shared with the rest of the country...INCLUDING PLUGGING THAT £2.7BN HOLE IN THE SNP'S BUDGET.

You can also include the surpluses from the other Southern regions which also go to the Treasury and are then shared with the rest of the country.

ITS THE NATIONALISTS THAT WANT TO KEEP IT ALL FOR THEMSELVES.

It is astonishing how much you are struggling with this.
48

Edward,

01/07/2008 01:34:18
I think Des Browne has lost the plot
This statement follows the one he made on Sunday when interviewed on BBC's Politics show, when he said that Glasgow East was solidly Labour as they knew which side there bread was buttered and would not vote any other way
Mind you after watching some elderly people in Glasgow East , who all said they have always voted labour as 'there working class' probably is about right what Des Browne was getting at. There just to brainwashed to know better!
49

Conan the Librarian™,

01/07/2008 01:34:54
59
I forgot "you lot are a joke".
50

ThomasP,

01/07/2008 01:35:00
64 Highland Mighty.

How can London share her wealth with the rest of the country when the whole country is up to 500 billion in debt?

How can anyone have a surplus when the country is in debt?
51

Highland Mighty©,

01/07/2008 01:36:11
61. Ok, that's just confirmed it.

ThomasP IS an idiot!

Now its "disgusting" to admit that London is a major economic region.

It's "disgusting" to quote facts.

According to the nats, it is much better to hide facts.
52

Edward,

01/07/2008 01:37:07
#57 Highland Mighty
Simple like you
It is a fact that when Edinburgh hosted the Commonwealth games the London government refused to provide any assistance
So would expect the same today if by chance the olympics were held in Edinburgh, again London would refuse to assist and insist Scotland pays for it all
53

Conan the Librarian™,

01/07/2008 01:37:12
AND TYPING IN CAPITALS, TO GIVE THE IMPRESSION OF SPEAKING SLOWLY TO A BACKWARD PUPIL.
54

Highland Mighty©,

01/07/2008 01:37:13
65. Go to bed, ThomasP.

You're a waste of time, space and bandwidth.
55

ThomasP,

01/07/2008 01:38:15
63 Richard1.

England does not buy anything. England is only part of the country and has no power to pick and choose what it buys.

The Companies, individuals etc etc and Government chooses where to buy her goods and if they buy stuff from Scotland then it must be good because there are no rules that they have to.
56

Conan the Librarian™,

01/07/2008 01:38:16
66
Vinegar stroke soon, Ken.
57

Highland Mighty©,

01/07/2008 01:38:31
And take Ken_Fitlike with you.

My God, these nats are dim! LOL!!

I'm so glad they are not old enough to vote.

Seriously. Phew!
58

ThomasP,

01/07/2008 01:39:12
67 Highland Mighty.

You are pathetic.

You can't have a surplus when the country is in debt.
59

Highland Mighty©,

01/07/2008 01:40:21
72. Unbelievable!

Do you even understand what you are writing? It's gibberish.
60

Highland Mighty©,

01/07/2008 01:41:24
75. We are talking about regional accounts, not national, you infinitely challenged boy!
61

,

01/07/2008 01:42:10
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62

Highland Mighty©,

01/07/2008 01:42:15
77. You are as clueless as ThomasP.

Begone. You're wasting everyone's time.
63

ThomasP,

01/07/2008 01:43:04
78 Richard1.

Living standards are lower in Scotland then the South East of England.

Health care is different also in Scotland and same in Wales then England.

How can it be compared when our countries have different health policies?
64

Edward,

01/07/2008 01:43:35
#55 Richard1
Think your getting carried away
London is a substantial Financial centre, but its not as big as all the other european centres combined, thats sheer nonscence. Frankfurt is fairly substantial in its own right
65

,

01/07/2008 01:44:46
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66

ThomasP,

01/07/2008 01:45:15
79 Highland Mighty.

I am talking about National and so were you.

You spoke about Scotlands 2.7 bill over spend...

London can't have a surplus when the country is in debt.

67

Edward,

01/07/2008 01:45:47
Anyway as soon as Scotland gains independence, England will suffer financially as it will no longer have access to the Oil revenues
68

Highland Mighty©,

01/07/2008 01:46:02
Forget it, Richard.

These two are clueless teenagers with only Wikipedia and 'Alex's Big Book of B0ll0x' to rely on.

That and they are just talking gibberish now. Well, it is late for the poor mites...
69

ThomasP,

01/07/2008 01:46:30
83 Richard1.

You can't even tell me what is bought from Scotland.
70

Conan the Librarian™,

01/07/2008 01:47:30
Ah. Bullying who he thinks are young and inexperienced.

ThomasP, your posts are fine and reasonable to me.

Are you a head teacher in a public school HM?

You like badgering young boys?

Hmm?
71

ThomasP,

01/07/2008 01:47:37
87 Richard1.

We DONT have the exactly the same services you twit.

Different Parliaments, different policies. Its not the same.
72

ThomasP,

01/07/2008 01:50:11
95 Richard1.

In post 82 I said we don't have the same living standards.
73

Highland Mighty©,

01/07/2008 01:50:28
90. It's all in the ONS. There are regional accounts all over the site.

Idiot. Truly, as thick as. Wow.

And he has no clue how bad he is.
74

Edward,

01/07/2008 01:51:28
#87 Richard 1
its you who is a thick english tw*t!Scotland generates sufficient wealth in its own right, een without the oil revenues. Next you will be saying that Scotland is subsidised and could never go it alone
Well if Scotland is such a burden on England, then why not agree that Scotland should become Independent
At least Scotland would not have to contribute to grandoise defence contracts, such as Trident or the trophy carriers (what exactly do we need carriers for???) And Scotland will reatina ALL the oil revenues for the North Sea and Atlantic shelf.
England can continue spending money that it doesnt have
75

Highland Mighty©,

01/07/2008 01:51:33
91. Is he asking for a list of goods brought from Scotland??!
76

ThomasP,

01/07/2008 01:52:23
100 Highland Mighty.

Yes please.
77

ThomasP,

01/07/2008 01:52:36
100 Highland Mighty.

Include the oil please.
78

Highland Mighty©,

01/07/2008 01:52:56
99. READ GERS.

For the love of God, read GERS.

You are talking out of your big fat one. You are a joke.

Read GERS.
79

Highland Mighty©,

01/07/2008 01:54:24
101. You seriously want a list of goods exported from Scotland to England?

Mmm.

Just **** off. Really. Go over there.

What a twot. LOL!
80

Conan the Librarian™,

01/07/2008 01:55:06
Indeed Ken.
Notice he does not respond to reasoned questions, merely leaping on inexperienced young, probably pert-bottomed posters.
81

ThomasP,

01/07/2008 01:55:07
105 Richard1.

The only reason Nats turn to abuse is because we get frustrated by the idiocy that we face from people like you and Highland Mighty
82

ThomasP,

01/07/2008 01:55:52
106 Highland Mighty.

Aye. You can't answer that can you?
83

ThomasP,

01/07/2008 01:56:32
109 Richard1.

That is shown on GERS.

It is the worst thing to base the future of Scotland on.

84

ThomasP,

01/07/2008 01:58:32
112 Richard1.

I've not stated that Scotland subsidises any part of the UK.

I only stated that money is being diverted from parts of the UK to pay for the London Olympics.
85

Conan the Librarian™,

01/07/2008 01:58:32
105
Dick one, Highland Mighty may consider you a bit old...
86

Highland Mighty©,

01/07/2008 01:58:36
11. There it is.

Even though it is prepared and signed by the SNP, it's untrustworthy.

Where do you base YOUR claims on? If even the SNP are considered unreliable, what is the source of your ridiculous claims?

87

Highland Mighty©,

01/07/2008 02:00:08
113. And it has been explained to you that the money being "diverted from parts of the UK" CAME FROM LONDON IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Ah, sod this. Truly the nats are a bunch of mongs.

I'm off to bed.
88

Highland Mighty©,

01/07/2008 02:01:00
116. Sorry, I thought I had given you the site.

Tell you what, feel free to prove me wrong and don't talk to me again until you have, you tedious waste of an egg.
89

ThomasP,

01/07/2008 02:01:44
117 Highland Mighty.

The money actually came from other countries since Britain is in debt and therefore does not create a surplus of any sort.
90

ThomasP,

01/07/2008 02:04:01
121 Richard1.

There is no evidence that actually proves London subsidises anyone.

Each country should raise and spend their own.
91

Conan the Librarian™,

01/07/2008 02:04:10
117
And where did it come from before being laundered in London?
Nice not speaking to you.
92

Conan the Librarian™,

01/07/2008 02:06:06
121
I refer the honourable gentleman to 123.
93

,

01/07/2008 02:06:11
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ThomasP,

01/07/2008 02:07:19
124 Richard1.

The EU has warned Britain on the debt that she has mounted up.

If we were apart of the Euro then Britain could be fined for allowing her debt to become out of control.

It really has got that bad.
95

ThomasP,

01/07/2008 02:08:06
128 Richard1.

London does not have the same standard of living as the rest of us.

Scotland has a lower standard of living then England.

96

democracy,

Scottish Borders 01/07/2008 02:08:10
#110, of course Highland Mighty can answer that one, he will just make up more s**te and post it, what an ignorant ranting clown that is!!!
97

ThomasP,

01/07/2008 02:08:30
London has a greater standard of living then Scotland.
98

,

01/07/2008 02:09:21
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Conan the Librarian™,

01/07/2008 02:10:09
130
Indeed Ken.
He couldn't handle it anymore;-)
100

Conan the Librarian™,

01/07/2008 02:12:01
130
Ken, it looks like you started something with the nutter.
101

,

01/07/2008 02:12:56
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102

Conan the Librarian™,

01/07/2008 02:16:09
137
Have you considered becoming a priest?
103

,

01/07/2008 02:19:50
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,

01/07/2008 02:22:26
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democracy,

Scottish Borders 01/07/2008 02:23:16
Browne is not out of touch, he was never IN touch to begin with, all the 'Scotland Office' family, are a bunch of 'gravy train','Im all right Jack',
Westminster Unionist sychophants!!
106

Conan the Librarian™,

01/07/2008 02:33:15
140
Alright then.

You could come in a priest?

You could use oil.

All over Scotland.

B*gger politics.

Has that covered everthing?
107

Kingston,

Singapore 01/07/2008 05:11:08
People have "never had it so good" because they have been able to borrow to finance a life style that they can't afford!

108

Earman,

Dumfries 01/07/2008 05:30:19
I think that it will be very interesting to see what the people of Glasgow's East End think of Labour's continual and depressing "we cannae dae it oorsels" attitude as opposed to the undeniable (at least to rational thinkers) sea-change in Scottish politics brought about by a party who, although far from perfect, at least have the best interests of the Scottish people at heart, and not that of their political masters in London. I have never voted for the SNP, but am now - in common with many others, I suspect - having great difficulty in finding any real reason not to. Wouldn't it be best for Scotland and it's people if ALL politicians - who, after all, tell us that they are "proud and honoured" to be given the opportunity to serve US, the people - started following Alex Salmond's example of speaking up for this country of ours without having to glance at London in case they ruffle any feathers?
109

missing home,

la verne 01/07/2008 05:32:31
Desmond, you need to spend a few weeks in Stevenston again. Your brother, Peter, was in my class at school, he was very nice when I knew him. I think you, along with the labour party in general, have lost touch.
110

LEAL,

01/07/2008 05:55:17
147
I agree with everything above .Well put.

SNP care about Scotland.

Labour care more about London,England
111

donald,

glasgow 01/07/2008 05:58:40
Tell Glasgow East that that they have never had it so good.

The Broon(e)s sound more like Thatcher's Babes every day.
112

Guga II,

Rockall 01/07/2008 06:45:26
Highland Blight. Why do you talk about "we" in the context of Scotland, when you are not even Scottish?

Why don't you go and vent your spleen in the Telegraph or the Guardian or similar. I'm sure they'll be happy to print all your anti-Scottish bulldust.

I presume that you are a fully paid up, and card carrying member of the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party.
113

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01/07/2008 07:26:11
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114

SouthernSkye,

01/07/2008 07:29:12
The UK has never had it so good too and, I assume that is why more people are emigrating than ever before.
I wonder if Des Brown (a surname to shudder at) got a 2 for 1 offer on rose tinted spectacles at spec-savers?
115

,

01/07/2008 07:35:17
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LEAL,

01/07/2008 07:39:53
153
The Orcadians will get the chance in the referendum of 2010 to say whether they want Scotland to be independent or not.Providing that referendum is allowed.
117

,

01/07/2008 07:41:52
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,

01/07/2008 07:46:14
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The Tin Man,

01/07/2008 08:09:27
Hissy-fit, hissy-fit, OIL, hissy-fit, hissy-fit, AM2, hissy-fit, hissy-fit, hissy-fit, TROLLs, hissy-fit, OIL, hissy-fit.
120

M.T.,

01/07/2008 08:14:38
We live in a country where the Government takes tax from the lower paid and gives it to the better off. (10p tax)

Scotland's most senior UK cabinet minister has claimed that Scots have "never had it so good" under more than a decade of Labour rule at Westminster.

You can fool some of the people some of the time but cannot fool all of the people all of the time.
121

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 01/07/2008 08:14:39
#153 "Many Orcadians do NOT want to be part of an independent Scotland."

Source for this oft-repeated claim, please. Is there an Orkneys National Party website I can go and look at to study their views? Or is there, in fact, absolutely no significant movement for Orcadian independence whatsoever?
122

J.M.,

Cupar 01/07/2008 08:21:16
Two points:

1. Des Browne is a Glasgow lawyer, speaks like a Glasgow lawyer and has the ability to smile like a Glasgow lawyer when he is lying through his teeth.

2. There are a select few who have never had it so good, which probably explains why Mr Browne in his ivory tower thinks it applies to the little people. The few to whom I refer are Labour politicians, their families and cronies. Never in the history of this country have we witnessed the phenomenon of such obvious mediocrities being catapulted to wealth with so little regard for their supporters. Allowances, dodgy donations, second homes, priviledges which the rest of us can only dream about, are the norm in Labours corrupt political machine. Dream on Des!
123

paulr,

edinburgh 01/07/2008 08:21:17
Highland Mighty© is obviously an english labour or tory MP, in disguise.
Only a total moron would beleive that London is paying for the olympics, the money, the majority of it will come from the rest of the uk taxes, including scotland, London will only pay a small fraction of the cost.
124

sonofhamish,

edinburgh 01/07/2008 08:22:55
Federation is the way to go and more and more people seem to understand that.

The Nats arguments are based on outdated, xenophobix isolationism and dreams. Always have been, always will be. Even Salmons grinning mug cant change it.
125

gus1940,

Edinburgh 01/07/2008 08:23:27
On Sunday's Andrew Marr Programme Ken Livingston boasted of how he had got the government to commit to £39Million Capital Expenditure on Transport Infrastructure in London over the next 10 years.

Who is subsidising Who?
126

scottish person,

paisley 01/07/2008 08:28:13
Highland Mighty,Richard 1st and The Old Firm,
Kindly report back to your labour party that you tried to con the sensible people of Scotland but failed miserably.
127

Alan B,

01/07/2008 08:31:10
Labour have completely failed scotland. They have completely failed to transform our slow growing economy nor give the scottish parliament the tools so that they can do it.
128

Alan B,

01/07/2008 08:32:51
#Rulesbutnotrulers

For an economist i have never seen u put to together an economic argument to address scotlands poor economic performance within the union.
129

Skyrat,

Edinburgh 01/07/2008 08:33:00
#5 Highland Mighty,

that's a lot of nonsense. Did you actually read the GERS report or did you just read a few words and then form your own conclusions as usual?

The point of the GERS report was that Scotland is NOT receiving its geographical share of the oil money, and that if we were, this country would be in surplus.

Do you think that the more you tout your lies the more people will believe them?

Alex Salmond was one of this country's foremost oil economists. In fact, the RBS apparently still use the formula he wrote to calculate oil revenues, the Royal Bank / BBC oil index. I'll take his views on North Sea oil over yours or Alistair Darling's any day of the week.

"In a recent letter to Chancellor Alistair Darling yesterday, Mr Salmond insisted how estimates showed Scotland was currently subsidising the rest of the UK by £4.4bn because of oil revenue." - The Herald 23/06/08
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bluehead,

edinburgh 01/07/2008 08:37:37
of all the politicians in this terminally ill government,
the one who gives me the creeps most is des brown.
I don't know how any of our young men and women join the armed forces with him in charge.
frankly I wouldn't give him a job shining shoes.
he is a prime example of why Scotland should be independent.no wonder the labour lot are on the way out.!
131

Foresight,

By the Water of Leith 01/07/2008 08:38:14

Des-Picable is clearly a graduate of the NULabour College of Spin !! Pocket money from Westminster to Holyrood has no bearing on the financial needs of Jock Tamson and his bairns. It is time to cut public expenditure and put the money back in the pockets of individuals who can then exercise their own personal choice based on their needs as to its outlay.
132

Alan B,

01/07/2008 08:40:35
#sonofhamish

From a scottish point of view with devolution we have had a federal type solution for the last 9 years. It has not exactly been a great success.

By arguing that independence is about "xenophobix and isolationism" shows that u do not really understand the argument for independence and the fact that u are unconfident in your own vision which u have been unable to spell out beyond hiding behind the term federalism which can mean many things and does not explain which powers lie where and why.

As i see it argument for federalism comes about as u really do no feel comfortable defending the union which federalism would continue. Your argument for federalism also has something in common with the independence argument ie the union in its current form is not working.

The other problem with the argument for federalism within the uk is it has been superceded to a large degree by the confederal nature of the EU.

As such i see much of the argument for federalism within the uk as just wanting to remain within the union but not sure for what purpose.
133

The Tin Man,

01/07/2008 08:42:29
#178 AlanB

A Scottish State Sector that was more in-line with the rest of the UK, would help, as our State Sector does not directly generate wealth.
134

McMillar,

London 01/07/2008 08:49:41
This is a joke....isn't it?
135

The Tin Man,

01/07/2008 08:54:29
I think that what he ment to say was "Scottish State Sector Has Never Been So Large".
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scottishcoffindodgerno1,

Tram City 01/07/2008 08:58:51
#40,You must be rangers scu****m,you can't be Scots
137

scottishcoffindodgerno1,

Tram City 01/07/2008 09:03:51
#63,whiskey,oil,so they will get from the EC,mmmmmm
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Senga Jean,

Scotland 01/07/2008 09:05:35
Common sense and simple observation by those of us who travel the world brings the inescapable conclusion that Scotland would be viable if independent. Uniquely for a country having such natural resources Scotland is under rewarded. This is very charitable of the Scottish people; but it is perplexing given the poverty that exists here and worst of all...guess where... yes where that by-election is to take place. Does Labour have pride in their 50 year record in Scotland?
139

Embra Don,

01/07/2008 09:13:05
Scotland is currently producing as much oil as Kuwait yet in Shettleston the male life expectancy is lower than Baghdad. Sooner or later the East End of Glasgow is bound to ask why. Maybe now's the hour?
140

Alan B,

01/07/2008 09:13:30
When the tories were turfed out of power they went through a period of apologising on tv for all they got wrong.

Labour are still in denial about get booted out of office at the last election.

They should be apologising to the scottish people for their poor leadership and trying to show that they can change in order to seek out support again.

The arrogance of Browne is breath taking. Labour have fail scotland in the last decade and they must deal with this fact.

If labour think they have actually done well over the last decade that shows amazing lack of ambition.
141

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 01/07/2008 09:14:48
The biggest mistake that the SNP can make is to see Labour as the Union. Politics runs in cycles and the Labour party are in a death spiral at the moment bith North and South of the Border. When this happens the natural opposition benefit, SNP in Scotland and the Conservative party in England. Remember in 2001 everyone said the Conservatives were finished. They now have the biggest poll lead since polls began. The SNP must be worried that despite all the Labour mistakes support for their core policy remains lower tha their own support. This is because it is not a choice between SNP and Labour but the future of the country.
142

Farky,

Edinburgh 01/07/2008 09:27:50
Des, Go spread that message in Glasgow East. Explain to them why Labour have delivered so little whilst they have been the dominant force in Scottish Politics for 50 years. Eleven years in Westmister, control of Glasgow Council and yet, Glasgow East is on e of the most deprived parts of Scotland. Go on Des, I dare you. Go to Glasgow East and tell them that THEY HAVE NEVER HAD IT SO GOOD!
143

Senga Jean,

01/07/2008 09:28:52
#187 A velvet revolution is the norm for the West. Why should Scotland be uniquely different. The fact is it will not but mischief makers spin spin spin!
144

Alan B,

01/07/2008 09:32:48
#It wassnae me

I really do not understand ur point.

Those supporting independence believe that scotland managing its own affairs will lead to better governance for scotland with more accountability to the people they serve.

"SNP should prove to Scotland that they can deliver change and this needs to be done before the referendum not after it. "
Why? How? The problem with the scottish parliament is that is weak and does not have so many powers needed to effect change.

- the sp cannot even control its own elections and we saw the mess westmisnter made as it used scotland as a guinney pig for electronic voting.
- economy - for me this is the most important one. sp has few powers.
a)needs fiscal autonomy to make changes necessary
b)cannot join the euro
c)no control over competition policy
d) transport - cannot control the structure of train services even though they fund them. Track remains with westminster. stupid i know but that is the reality.
e)law - no control over firearms, drugs, id card, number of days detention.
- number of police in a police car for traffic offences.
f)lacks control of energy policy. The nuclear issue is a mess with the sp having to resort to planning laws to stop new nuclear. The sp have no control over the transmission arrangement for electricity. Westminster has imposed a charging regime detrimental the scottish government policy of encouraging renewables.
g)broadcasting; no control. labour withdrew this power to be devolved under blair as he was persuaded by key labour mps like darling and reid that devolving broadcasting ie news would not be in the labour party interests.
h)other regulations - super casinos.

As such how can u realistically change anything. The scottish parliament was created very weak as it was a sop to stop independence not to create good governance of scotland.
145

Jimmy the Pie,

01/07/2008 09:44:20
So, we have never had it so good, have we Comrade Broone?

You've never had it so good! So make the most of your time at the trough, because you and your sleaze ridden no hoper's are about the get annihilated.

Some legacy Comrade.

Sleazier than John Major's Tories of the 90's
146

Red Tower,

Dunoon 01/07/2008 09:47:15
Actually we don't need to answer Des all we need to do is to refer him to the result of the forthcoming bye-election.
147

morris,

Edinburgh 01/07/2008 09:50:12
If Des Browne wants to display what an imbecile he is,making remarks like this,whilst his constituents face soaring food and fuel bills,whilst he merrily declares himself immune by increasing his unaccountable salary and expenses which are already a disgraceful milking of the public purse,never mind any increase,then we should not discourage him.
The accusation that he belongs to a party of quislings is easier to justify when they prove it every time they open their "!Westminster is the centre of the Universe" mouths!

Some people in his constituency will remember his arrogance and deal with him just as the rest of Scotland will unite and remove them from our midst.Keep up the good work DES!
187

There are United Nations agreements which apply when countries secede from a previous arrangement.Of course the exact details will be subject to agreement between the two governments but the two Parliaments (Westminster and Holyrood) take on equal status and internationally agreed rules apply to much of the procedures,which the United Kingdom is a signatory to.We cannot guarantee that the settlement will be xyz just as you cannot guarantee that it wont!
I fail to see what point you are making therefore.
148

Red Tower,

Dunoon 01/07/2008 09:51:12
Why do people refer to Brown as "Comrade"? He is an arch Tory. Wherein really is there a difference between Cameron and Brown? They are both Margaret Thatcher's children.
149

Liz,

Edinburgh 01/07/2008 09:53:59
#82
"Living standards are lower in Scotland then the South East of England."

Have you ever been there?! There are parts of London/SE that make the choicest bucky drinking areas of Glasgow seem appealing...
150

Alan B,

01/07/2008 09:59:27
#Liz

Yes what is ur point. If u living and work in london/se on average u will end up with a better job and considerably wealthier over a period of time.

London/se is one of the wealthiest regions in europe.
151

Red Tower,

Dunoon 01/07/2008 09:59:54
#195

When people talk in comparative terms they talk in terms of averages. So it is fair to say that living stangdards are lower in Scotland and in the SE of England.
152

Wynn,

CLYDESDALE 01/07/2008 10:00:01
The frogs asked for a king and were given a dead tree that didn't do anything. They asked for something else and got a stork that ate them.
Just think yourselves lucky Browneboy doesn't have the job full-time. If he did for us what he's done for the Forces..................
153

Red Tower,

Dunoon 01/07/2008 10:02:02
#197 should read:

When people talk in comparative terms they talk in terms of averages. So it is fair to say that living standards are lower in Scotland than in the SE of England.

154

M.Corleone,

2nd Vatican State....Coatbridge 01/07/2008 10:02:07
Gaun yersel Dessie boy, us home Scots don't ken whit we're talking about obviously....This clown makes Wendy Bendy Toy look like an intellectual.
155

,

01/07/2008 10:03:12
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156

,

01/07/2008 10:07:28
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Ctinj,

Alloa 01/07/2008 10:11:36
HELP

Morning - completely unrelated issue during fuel stirke at Grangemouth, someone posted a web address that allowed you to check ships docking at Rosyth.

Any chance someone could kindly post it again for me.

Many thanks
158

Allan(handofgod137),

01/07/2008 10:25:56
So Des is already practicing his stand up routine, for when the career change is forced upon him at the next election.
159

,

01/07/2008 10:30:53
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11+failed,

the pans 01/07/2008 10:33:46
No doubt about it the oleaginous hypocritical Des Browne has "never had it so good" gourmandizing on the public purse.
161

La5t_minit,

01/07/2008 10:37:57
Dont you just love it when a politician tells you taht 'you've never had it so good'?.

Pity politicians dont live in the real world where you have to pay your own bills.....and not claim for everything from a toilet roll to a new kitchen on expences.

Where you earn a pitance of a salary.... And not just vote for how much of a pay rise you will give yourself at the expence of people barely managing to keep warm in JUNE.

Until politicians and so called 'Minsters' are forced to live on what is classed as 'the average wage' and pay for what they get, they will never be on eth same planet as the people they are supposedly representing.

If a law was passed banning them from earnning more than the national average wage, not only would you see a huge reduction in the numbers of these scrounging self centered idiots but you would also see the standard of living for the averagre person in this country become the envy of the world.
We might actually get people in power who wanted to do some good instead of simply wallow in the limelight for being so stupid.





And
162

john z,

edinburgh 01/07/2008 10:42:09
Kepp up the good work Trauir.

If anyone in Scotland or the Labour party wanted to know just how out of touch Des Browne is, then the proof is in those comments.

Now we have the London Labour spin doctors scurrying around trying to get press releases from all and sundry in the Labour party 'qualifying' what Des said.

With London Labour people like Michael Martin sending his housekeeper shopping by taxi paid for by the taxpayer, it is clear that Labour are unable to see reality. I just wonder how many of his constituents in Glasgow North East/Springburn can afford have a housekeeper? A man of the people?? I thinketh not.

As regards the oil, ALL the experts predict it will continue coming out of the North sea for somewhere between 50 and one hundred years, but that misses the point.

Scotland is a country in it's own right, and achieves nothing from a union where English MPs voting massively outnumber all the scots, where there is and has been a deliberate and sustained dilution of Scottish culture and language, in true English colonial style. In addition, it has recently been clearly shown, that repeated governments in London have wilfully lied, decieved and cheated the scots regarding the size of the Scottish oil field potential. They are still doing it to this day.

Gordon Brown talks about meeting the oil producing countries, as though they are different to Scotland.

Scotland produces as much oil as Kuwait.

A constituency only becomes important to labour, if they think they may lose it. This explains their complete lack of attention to the problems in the East of Glasgow for the last twenty years.

I just hope the good hard working people of Glasgow east, use this historic chance fate has given them, to give these leaches in Labour a right good kicking, so next time around Labour will really make an effort, instead of paying lip service for another twenty years.
163

Jock ex 45Cdo RM,

THORNHILL 01/07/2008 10:42:47
The relief of the troops in Afghanistan and Iraq to know that Desmond is right again will be comforting.
That backed up with Wendy's wee brother making a visit must add cheer.
Imagine having to 'fall in' to hear the Messrs Broons drivelling on re weapons, equipment etc. The top brass seem reluctant to voice the comcerns of m-the majority of servicenmen.
Just had a thought-- woul Alexander travel to Afghanistan in a RAF Nimrod?
164

Mike555,

01/07/2008 10:48:52
I am constantly amazed how people vote for idiots like Des Browne who does not live in the same world as the rest of us.

This is a man who bleeds us dry with an inflated salary, gold plated pension and expenses that are so over the top that 2 big families could live on that alone.

Get this insulting scrounger out now!!

165

morris,

edinburgh 01/07/2008 10:50:47
202
United Nations automatically recognise a claim of sovereignty from any former nation,and consider them presumably to be returning to a position of legality which previously existed, or at least this is what I always understood to be the case.
Scotland is recognised as one of Europe's oldest nations,older than England in fact,never mind the United Kingdom.
I am no expert, but I do know that the SNP checked the claim of sovereignty out many years ago,and have been assured by numerous people in both the EU and UN and lecturers on constitutional law and the like.If you think the SNP has promised what she has without checking out what the facts are,then you really do live in a cocoon of your own manufacture.Claims have been made by people like David Martin(Labour) that Scotland would be thrown out of the EU certainly.
This was actually put to the outgoing chair of the EU at the time by Winnie Ewing, and he gave an assurance that he could not see any circumstances where this could even begin to be correct, and he is far from alone!The precedent was set by Greenland I believe,and most people who have any say here agree that Scotland and the "Other Bit" both retain membership until such time as they declare their departure.Westminster has no more say than Edinburgh does and the sooner everybody understands that the better we shall be.
For the record :
There are older nations certainly such as Luxembourg and Denmark, but there are not very many!

Negotiations will take place between two sovereign nations and their elected representatives,We do not negotiate with Westminster any more or any less than she negotiates with Holyrood!We are equal in stature and as general rule divisions in line with population will usually be the expectation,(but horse trading is inevitable).
It should be noted however that the Oil revenues will accrue to Scotland (or at least the lions share anyway)since it exists under the Scottish sector of the North Sea.Just as the UK has no c
166

morris,

edinburgh 01/07/2008 10:53:51
213 cont
It should be noted however that the Oil revenues will accrue to Scotland (or at least the lions share anyway)since it exists under the Scottish sector of the North Sea.Just as the UK has no claim upon Norwegian sector North Sea oilfields,so will England have no claim upon future Scottish oil extraction,(unless some kind of deal, which is agreed by both nations ,declares otherwise of course)Few things are signed and sealed as you rightly say,all are negotiable to some extent,but be under no illusion Scotland holds all the aces and will play them for sure.

I am not an expert in these matters as is pretty obvious but I have sought reassurances from people who are,and they were very reassuring indeed!
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Ananurhing,

01/07/2008 11:20:50
What a great start to Labour's campaign in Glasgow East. " You've never had it so good."

Worst housing in Europe. Male life expectancy of 63.
Astronomical teenage pregnancy rates.
Great achievments under Labour's watch for 50 years.
Breathtaking hubristic arrogance, secure in the knowledge that the 'monkey in the red rosette' will walk it for them.

Surprised he hasn't come out with " Well let them eat chips".

BTW, I thought a monkey in a red rosette was a £500 bung with Wendy's name on it!
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Liz,

Edinburgh 01/07/2008 11:24:05
#196

The point is that on paper the money per person may seem higher in the South East than it is in Scotland, but where would you rather live? There are large areas of the South East/London where you would not want to walk down the street in daylight let alone night. I could argue that the quality of life here is Scotland in higher (on the basis on time taken to commute to work and the general 'niceness' of places) there is more to this arguement than simply the money.
169

karinxxx,

01/07/2008 11:34:23
This comment by browne "scots youve never had it so good" reminds me of thatcher when she said much the same thing something along the lines of "scotland does very well out of us"
170

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01/07/2008 11:40:29
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Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

01/07/2008 11:42:32
205 It wassnae me,01/07/2008 10:18:51

NHS Scotland is already separate from NHS UK.
As for the MOD, would Scotland really spend £2bn on self defence if it was Independent, a more likely figure would be >£1bn, as Scotland would make no contribution to Rump UK Nuclear,Chemical and Biological weapons.

Nor would Scotland have any requirement for 'giant aircraft carriers, or any aircraft carriers for that matter, as these are 'offensive' weapons not 'defensive' ones.

Oh and we already have a completely separate legal system, ask Maggie the Snatcher about that one.
A separate Education system, at all levels.

So basically your hypotheses is a null hypotheses, as most of Scotland's institutions are already separate from the rest of the UK, with only the UK government units being 'cross border', like Social Security, HMRC (which is so inefficient it spends 40p of every tax £ administering itself, if it was 50% more efficient, income tax could drop to 10p in the £ and still leave plenty of money for infrastructure, pensions etc;and that is not taking account of the surplus from VAT or other forms of duties)

172

Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

01/07/2008 11:48:02
213 It wassnae me,01/07/2008 11:02:42

CTR is part of the Block Grant, this was agreed way back in 99/99 and included in the Scotland Act, so if Westminster want to change that they have got to change the Scotland Act, if they do that, against the will of the Scottish people, they will have effectively guaranteed independence.
173

Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

01/07/2008 11:48:46
sorry bout that a typo should read '98/99'
174

lulach mac gille coemgain,

01/07/2008 11:54:03
Ha ha ha !

The Westminster clowns are active in their wee circus again
175

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 01/07/2008 11:59:49
#220

A few quick pointers the UK has no chemical or biological weapons. the "giant aircraft carriers" are vital tools for ensuring that sea lanes stay open as they give you the ability to secure sea lanes anywhere in the world. 90% of UK trade comes by sea. As for defence budgets in 2006 Norway spent £2.4 billion, Denmark 1.9 Billion Poland £ 3 billion and the Netherlands £5 billion, no aircraft carriers or SSBNs anywhere in sight. You may get a fright just how expensive even a SDF is to run.
176

Alan B,

01/07/2008 12:05:17
#It wassnae me

"Why have two MOD's when one will do? "
really depends on whether u want to spend money on nuclear and fighting wars overseas. At the end of the day defence is one of the very few things i could see that we could share with the rest of the uk. But it would be better as 2 independent countries sharing a defennce union than a fully fledge political merger.

"Why have two NHS's when one will do? "
We already do have separe nhs, education system and legal system.


"I see benefits in increased powers of devolution and the Scottish Parliament having increased fiscal and regulatory powers. I also believe handing fiscal control over to some of the numpties in Holyrood will lead us to ruin"

Does that not contradict.

The handling of the uk fiscal position has been poor with brown anyway so it is hardly an advertisement for letting westminster run it for us.

177

Raj Persaud's ghost writer,

01/07/2008 12:09:07
I remember driving out of easterhouse via the motorway. It was quite funny with all the houses facing the road with the one side painted and looking nice ,whereas when you drove into the scheme it was run down as hell.

Typical Labour. PAint the bits of houses most folk can see and leave the folk who live their still in the mire.

Aye 50 years of labour and thats the treatment they get.
178

Miss H,

01/07/2008 12:12:14
5 With that attitude you guys are going to crash and burn in Glasgow East.

Doesn’t matter how many activists you ship up, comments like Des Browne’s just add fuel to the fire. People like him and Tom Harris who made similar comments are completely out of touch. They have been in the Westminster village too long.

Labour may hope that by selecting George Ryan they can make it a local campaign but I believe it’s going to be fought on national issues with an immense amount of media interest. It will be a disaster for Labour if they go about telling people in Glasgow East that they have never had it so good. I almost feel sorry for you lot. You have lost it.
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Jock MacTamson 2,

Highlands 01/07/2008 12:32:41

Is Desi Browne talking about the MP's or real people?

Life surely is great for MP's and their families while they rob the public purse while they twiddle their thumbs doing pretend jobs for big money.

Do you remember the look on portillo's face in 1997. I look forwward to seeing the look on labour MP's facing at the next elections.
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01/07/2008 12:33:41
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Busymale,

01/07/2008 12:41:48
You know, I'm really getting fed up with Highland Mighty treating this forum as one of Unionist propaganda. I come on at lunch time to read peoples opinions and be entertained not bludgened by doctrinist figures pulled from a library of doctored arguments. Can't we just turn him off?

And as for Des Browne a more arrogant dislikeable man you'll never meet.
186

Busymale,

01/07/2008 12:46:07
I see David Marshalls constituency is described as "one of the most deprived in Europe". So much for Labour representing their best interests and raising peoples standard of living. Failure rewarded by failures.

Quite frankly if they continue to vote for Labour they deserve each other!
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Liz,

Edinburgh 01/07/2008 12:56:40
#235
Personally I get tired of the propaganda from both sides of the debate and the mindless points scoring which these comments pages invariably decend into.

Same people making the same largely incorrect points (on both sides).
189

John S,

01/07/2008 12:57:20
Even Des Browne's 'You never had it so good' isn't original, it was used by the US Democratic Party which used 'You never had it so good' as a slogan in the 1952 US election campaign.They did loose that election.
190

megz,

glasgow 01/07/2008 12:59:20
perhaps old des was referring to MPs and the plethora or expenses they can claim. As for the other muppet asking why we are all so miserable, perhaps these parasites should try paying for their own fuel, papers, new 10k kitchens etc then they might not be so cheery themselves!!!

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Alfie Bett,

01/07/2008 13:00:06
224 P Anna Barr

This may be what you were looking for

http://www.shipais.com/index.php?map=Scotland
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cataibh,

over the Struie 01/07/2008 13:07:38
#210 Since the past 50 years labour has said to the Scottish people --thanks for your votes folks now b****r off--
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Jock MacTamson 2,

Highlands 01/07/2008 13:09:33
#233 - Martha the troll(and other variations of spelling)

You are a f-u-d. I get the impression you read your own posts and chuckle to yourself. Well at least you can laugh at yourself.That makes 1 person who values your opinion.

Why post utter p-i-s-h and s-h-i-t and descriptions of g-a-y behaviour of which you seem very knowledgable BTW.

You are such a pathetic c-u-n-t that you have not got the the courage to even post on a newpaper website and let your comments be attributed to your anonomous login name.

No balls. No brains. Stilling living at home with your mother tapping at the Bitty. You cannot even support yourself in a web forum.

Are you a labour MP ?
194

Jock MacTamson 2,

Highlands 01/07/2008 13:12:24
#243 - appologies for language but I am trying to eat my lunch and this idiot is posting about weirdness.

I know should not feed the troll but every now and then I like to kick at one.
195

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 01/07/2008 13:13:28
235 busymale, why have a go at Highland Mighty, I think it's very honest of him/her/it/them, to come on here and publicly admit that the union has compleatly failed Scotland, and backed up with figures as well!
196

Marthalions,

01/07/2008 13:20:25
243

Typical of the Nats to resort to cheap shots.

The level of expectation amongst the major oil companies that huge oil and
gas resources are awaiting discovery within the borders of the Caspian Sea
makes this one of the warmest of the world’s international hot-spots. The
most frenetic activity is currently targeted at the deeper water South Caspian
basin in Azerbaijan where the first commitment exploration wells of the newly
formed consortia are already being drilled out but with mixed success.
Interest in the Iran, Turkmenistan and Kazakstan sectors is also high but
disputes over median lines and the slower pace of the licensing authorities
has delayed the award of new acreage to western companies in these areas.

I know lots about oil and economics.
197

Red Tower,

Dunoon 01/07/2008 13:44:28
Liz you state:

"Personally I get tired of the propaganda from both sides of the debate and the mindless points scoring which these comments pages invariably decend(sic) into.Same people making the same largely incorrect points (on both sides)."

Well, why bother reading the comments? You could take up basket-weaving, helping the Aged or a whole host of other worthwhile things.

All these other pursuits would be rewarding. You would be doing something that has a point. As for telling folk you are getting tired of the propaganda. Do you really imagine that the writers care about how tired you are? This statement will not deter anyone from carrying on as usual. No, your's is the most ineffective and pointless comment of all.
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Keir Hardie,

Inverness 01/07/2008 13:44:57
#238 - totally agree.

Des Browne was an idiot to use that phrase, even with 'in that sense' in front of it it will just provoke anyone not totally happy with his government.
199

Keir Hardie,

Inverness 01/07/2008 13:48:16
#248, so you like it how it is then? You prefer a childish brawl to grown-up debate? And you are offended if anyone doesn't like that?
200

Liz,

Edinburgh 01/07/2008 13:51:04
#248
If my post was so ineffective and pointless then why did you bother to reply to it!?

And no, I do not bother reading all the comments as every day the debates are ruined by everything turning into the same petty squabbles.
201

Ananurhing,

01/07/2008 14:06:27
So Des Browne's "You've never had it so good", and
Tom Hariss's "Why is everyone so bloody miserable", what passes for grown up debate?

202

John R. Constable,

England 01/07/2008 14:07:02
Politics in Scotland will become much more straightforward when Scots are represented exclusively by Scottish politicians at Holyroyd.

Ditto for us English re: Westminster.

Roll on the 2010 independence referendum.
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Jock MacTamson 2,

Highlands 01/07/2008 14:29:59
#256 - Highland Mighty

or God forbid a lowlander/english person pretending to be from the Highlands and, even more laughable to be Mighty.

Its cyber space mate you can pretend to be anything you want. You can even pretend to be Scottish!
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01/07/2008 14:32:15
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Brian Hill,

Edt inburgh 01/07/2008 14:38:31
Highland Mighty and others, the only figures which matter these days are: OIL $144 a barrel and RISING.

The importance of those figures will be amply demonstrated at Glasgow East.

If Brown chooses the 24th, which is the first possible Thursday following the official resignation of David Marshal, he will be demonstrating his absolute panic at the prospect of the SNP taking the seat.

Fear of the SNP electoral juggernaught could be the only plausible reason for having a by-election in the middle of the Glasgow fair. It's ludicrous.

Another 150 reasons of course might be that Oil may well hit the magic $150 a barrel by August....a living NIGHTMARE for HM, AM2 and all those other strange Britain and Labour before Scotland pro unionist types in these columns.
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Red Tower,

Dunoon 01/07/2008 14:48:48
#251
You state:

"I do not bother reading all the comments as every day the debates are ruined by everything turning into the same petty squabbles".

Again you refuse to give any good reason why you bother to read any of the comments.
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John R. Constable,

England 01/07/2008 14:54:08
# 256

It is probably true that only the paranoid survive.

However, I am actually English and this is my real name.

I do not post very often on the Scotsman blogs* because err, I am English so I am naturally more interested in England and its political fate.

I recognise that Alex Salmond and the SNP are the best political friends that the English have right now.

On the basis that my enemies enemy is my friend, we English people and the SNP find common cause against those, mostly Scottish Labour politicians at Westminster, who are blocking our path to independence.

* If you need more convincing, you can find some of my blog posts on the BBC's Nick Robinson and Robert Peston's news-blogs.
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Carmichael, A.,

Scotland 01/07/2008 14:56:14
Seemingly, we've had our share ladies and gentleman and since we are just a darned ungrateful bunch of surly money-grabbers we should quieten ourselves down now, for a wee bit at least. Let the honourable gentlemen and ladies get on wi' their important business and so follow me as I skulk off into the corner knowing I've never had it so good.

Well, not quite, my reaction to Browne's nonsense is as nonplussed as my reaction to just about most things our worthy Labour leaders deem fit for such consumption in Scotland. I have been scoffing for far too long at the reasonings of those who either make personal political, financial, or emotional gain from the union that I am now calling an amnesty. Their time is up and as those few who feel a clawing drag toward an anachronsitic union become ever more dependably earnest and commitedly silly and outlandish in their proclamations the more I shall let such nonsense wash o'er. Their time is up, they've yet to be called in, not too long now, some of them just don't know it yet for sure - poor wee lost souls that they are. And, remember, a wiser man than me once said that we should always forgive those who can only think they know better, there's nothing that annoys them more.
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Traquir , Alba,

01/07/2008 14:56:50
Who Cares...

Back to the only real story in town for the next few weeks.

This is pretty interesting will come some encouragement
to nationalist that we will have more that a good
chance of winning Glasgow East.

LABOUR WILL LOSE GLASGOW EAST TO SNP

tinyurl.com/55c9r8

Andrew Rawnsley, PoliticsHome


Labour will lose the Glasgow East by-election to the SNP. That's the powerful forecast of the PHI100, Britain's most authoritative survey of expert and inside political opinion.

The panel's prediction will cause great apprehension within Labour's already frightened ranks because the PHI100 has established a reputation as the most accurate predictor of election outcomes. The politically balanced panel was the first to correctly forecast that Boris Johnson would be elected Mayor of London. The panel, which includes senior politicians and strategists from all the main parties, also accurately predicted the outcomes of the by-elections in Crewe & Nantwich and Henley, forecasting a substantial Tory win in the former and an increased Conservative majority in the latter.

A substantial majority of the panel is forecasting a victory for the Nationalists over the Government in the Glasgow seat which Labour would normally regard as very safe. Most (fifty five per cent) think it will be a SNP win with a narrow majority. A further ten per cent of the panel believe that the SNP will win comfortably.

David Marshall, who has triggered the by-election by announcing that he is standing down on health grounds, enjoyed a Labour majority in the seat of 13,507 at the last general election.

For Labour to lose this seat would be a devastating blow and further shred the morale of the party's MPs, already reeling from the loss of Crewe and a humiliating fifth place in Henley. The position of Gordon Brown would be made yet more difficult.

Not a single panellist responds that Labour will retain the seat with an increased majority. Nor is there a single respondent
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Traquir , Alba,

01/07/2008 14:57:22
cont.

Not a single panellist responds that Labour will retain the seat with an increased majority. Nor is there a single respondent who believes that the Labour majority will be roughly the same as it is now.

Less than a quarter of the panel (twenty four per cent) predict that Labour will win the seat and all of them think that it will only hold on with a reduced majority.

Left-leaning panellists were slightly more inclined to be optimistic about Labour's chances. But majorities of all types of panellists (left, right, liberal and non-aligned) are predicting an SNP gain at Labour's expense.

One left-leaning strategist says: 'If Labour loses, it's curtains for Brown.'

One right-leaning media panellist believes: 'Losing Glasgow East will be, in a hotly contested category, Brown's worst defeat yet.'

A non-aligned panellist thinks: 'It would beg the question: if Gordon Brown can't appeal to middle England or working class Scotland, who exactly is going to vote for him?'


PHI100 Results: 30.06.08
In terms of percentage majority, what do you think the result of the Glasgow East by-election will be?

An SNP Majority - 65%
An Labour Majority - 24%

I wonder if this is one of the reason that for one Broon is holding an election at lightening fast speed.

I wonder if the Scottish papers will pick up
this story ?

Saor Alba
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01/07/2008 14:59:01
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Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 01/07/2008 14:59:59
Des Browne:
"Of course we've never had it so good - kitchens, TV's, second houses all on expenses - never mind thousands spent on taxis for the wife. And now we're talking of a £40,000 pay rise instead of these expenses. We're in the money! It's never been so good - what are you plebs on about? Stop being miserable complaining gits and eat cake"
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Media 1,

cape town 01/07/2008 15:01:34
Salem

I disagree about Scotland drowning in a sea of dependence. For 300 years Scotland has been a very important and powerful member of the union and her people have prospered from it.
The dependece issue you are speaking about is not actually dependence, it is merely a national meme. A sort of nationalistic brainwashing. The SNP has been on a "create a low self esteem drive" for decades. They have tried to cheapen Scotland's image, they have tried to ensur that Scots see themselves as spineless nobodies, they have attempted to instil a sense of small dog syndrome within the Scottish pshyche and they use England as their bait.
Pathetic really, but scary in that they actually have some support for the time being.
Hopefully though, the Scottish public will come to their senses and vote for a politcal party who have politicians in their ranks as opposed to a freedom fighing movement who have a bunch of liberation fighters in their ranks.
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01/07/2008 15:04:01
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brownlie,

01/07/2008 15:05:16
269 Highland

You seem to take great pleasure in gloating about oil revenues declining.

From your elevated position do you have a message for the Glasgow East electorate?
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LEAL,

01/07/2008 15:09:00
I agree with 236 above.The unionist argument is so negative.Weve heard it all before for years and years.Again we ask them What are the benefits of union with England?
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ThomasP,

01/07/2008 15:13:04
271 Media 1,cape town

"...vote for a politcal party who have politicians in their ranks as opposed to a freedom fighing movement..."

You implied it yourself. The SNP are FIGHTING FOR SCOTLANDS FREEDOM.

Independence 2010!!!
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Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 01/07/2008 15:18:26
“The process by which the banks create money is so simple, the mind is repelled.” -- Harvard economist J. K. Galbraith.

-- How can Scotland generate enough wealth on its own without oil?

Productive work. Creative work. I think we'd be better Europeans outwith the EU. For we need a goverment for national reconstruction that will fund key infrastructure projects with scottish money payed to scottish companies employing and training scottish people. Some expertise will need to come from abroad and this is where an oil fund would be useful. e.g. if you were a world class ship-designer based in NZ, you would want paid in $NZ.

"The fact is that over 95% of the money we use is so-called electronic money. It only exists as computer entry. How does money get into a computer.

And the obvious answer of course is that it doesn't. This money which exists as computer entry is not money, it is a record of what is owed. We fondly imagine that it is a record of what is stored in the bank vaults. But it isn't. It is merely a record of what is owed to the bank.

Although we call it money it is actually something quite different, it is credit. We use credit as money. We have a debt based economy."
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Media 1,

cape town 01/07/2008 15:20:09
ThomasP

But therein lies the sadness of the entire issue. Scotland is already free and has been for 300 years under the act of union.
Scotland in the eyes of the SNP is a little whimper of a nation answerable to England. In my eyes, Scotland is a fuc#ing trmendous nation filled with opportunity. Scotland is a powerful player within the union and a BIG DOG, not a small one..
Maybe you should begin showing some respect for Scotland.
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01/07/2008 15:20:20
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ThomasP,

01/07/2008 15:24:34
278 Media 1,cape town

Get real. Scottish MP's can be defeated by the vast amounts of English MP's and our own Parliament relies on the good faith of the English MP's willingness to give us a decent block grant.

Scotland is not free because we have to obay what the rest of the UK wants.

Does Scotland want nuclear power? No

Iraq war? No.

WHta about our fishing? Oh that has been wiped out to

Cape Town? Is that not in South Africa?

And where am I from? Scotland, Aberdeen?

I feel I have more experience actually living in Scotland to comment on our influence within the Union thank you very much.
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01/07/2008 15:26:59
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01/07/2008 15:34:50
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Davie08,

Edinburgh 01/07/2008 15:34:59
#281
Dear God there is actually someone more tedious and tiresome than AM2.
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01/07/2008 15:38:15
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01/07/2008 15:38:43
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cataibh,

over the Struie 01/07/2008 15:40:28
When the SNP put forward any proposal to benefit Scotland it is blocked by the those London based unionists.
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Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 01/07/2008 15:41:41
They who issue a nations money have power over that nation. We do not know who has that power at the moment, but we seem to believe that things would be even worse if the power were given to our Government.

We get the sort of Government we deserve and when we permit our Government to slide under the power of unknown, unelected financiers, then we get a Government that is the source of endless complaint.
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01/07/2008 15:42:14
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NBJT,

North Berwick 01/07/2008 15:45:28
HA ha ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry, but these Labour ministers just keep getting funnier.

They obviously have far too much time on their hands in Westminster and as a result they fill it with telling jokes.

They should come home, as they one day will, when independence is at last declared!!!!!
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01/07/2008 15:49:49
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All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 01/07/2008 15:52:24
#288

By your maths the independence position is an even smaller minority, numpty.
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Liz,

Edinburgh 01/07/2008 15:52:27
#290
"The losers have been the Scottish people who are now at a place where they don’t know which way to turn. They are confused by the collapse of the education and health care systems; they are confused by the escalation of crime, anti-social behavior and drug use and on and on. "

Would you like to be a bit more patronising to your fellow Scots. You seem to be on some higher level to the rest of us stupid and confused plebs.
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01/07/2008 15:52:48
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All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 01/07/2008 15:58:15
#293

It is straight from the SNP handbook anyone who does not agree with the pro Indepndence view point is either too stupid to understand the concept properly, been brainwashed by London, are a traitor or not a patriotic Scot. Take your pick.
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Rodster,

Glasgow 01/07/2008 15:58:35
answer for those asking if GERS is accurate or not.
alloow me to state quite clearly to make Highland mighty Cape town etc understood .
If it shows Scotland as an ecomnomic basket case then YES OF COURSE it is correct , on the other hand when showing Scotland as a net provider of the Union and in surplus of course it is not correct Scotland is an ecomniomic basket case , and we are beholding to Westminster and the Unionists .
We are far too stupid , too weak and defientley too poor to be an independent nation like say , Montenegro , Ireland , Denmark , Croatia , Iceland , Norway , Sweden , dare i say even zimbabwe is able to make its own decisions and tell the world to get lost , apparently we are not even able to be Independnent and screw up we are worse than even that .
So praise the lord and be thankful to the Labour and Tory Parties along with the illeberal Liberals for keeping us in check and in the fold!!!
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01/07/2008 15:59:38
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Jock MacTamson 2,

Highlands 01/07/2008 16:00:13
Surely GERS should be seen also in context of a Government wasting money. What relevance does how the labour government mis use the public purse have on the usage of an independent Scotland.

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Jock MacTamson 2,

Highlands 01/07/2008 16:07:31
#298 Highland

"Just look at the difference between Apr 07 and May 08. A year of intense effort by Salmond and his young nats to get us all to hate the UK and the English..."

You continue to claim that being pro Scotland is to hate the English or the UK. I have no such view.

I simply wish to improve the situation of government of scotland to a Scottish Based and Located government.

The French Govern themselves for good management NOT because they hate the Germans.

You spin lies mixed with stats with such enthusiasm. If you are so certain independence has no support why do you keep fighting so hard. Why waste your time?
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Rodster,

Glasgow 01/07/2008 16:07:48
295 I would not call you a traitor to be that you have to take a conscious decision .
You sound more like one of those "my faither did and telt me tae , so I do and I bleieve !!
I am incapable of even comtemplating for one minute that perhaps there is a better way , than illegal wars , WMD taxing the poor paying obscene bonuses to city spivs to the detriment of poorer people .
you believe that amongst all the nations on this planet Scotland is somehow uniquely placed to be unable to make a better job of running itself .
Pray tell me one country that has ever gotten away from Westminster that has attempted to get back under direct rule.
Even Zimbabwe now wants self determination not Westminster rule.
Straving , and poor economy in ruin no oil , no coal no wind power no wave power , got not even access to the sea , yet they want self determination not Westminster rule .
Does that not even tell you something about your wonderful Westminster ???

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Voldemort,

Edinburgh 01/07/2008 16:12:49
What Des really means to say is that 'The Public sector has never had it so good' !

- Investment has doubled under Labour - yes it probably has but has been squandered on made up jobs and grossly inefficient management and nepotistic and corrupt fund allocation - leaving core services and the ability to provide them woefully short ....

This is why when Edinburgh is asked to 'cut back' - they never sack 1000 useless council workers they close a school instead or half the rubbish collection ....

This is beyond a betrayal of trust ... Some MSP's, councillors and senior council staff should be going to jail for this.
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Jock MacTamson 2,

Highlands 01/07/2008 16:14:06
#304 Robster

Have you not noticed the total failure other countries who have become independent of the Westminster government.

USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc, etc, etc

All told they could not make it. Seem fine to me.
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Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 01/07/2008 16:15:17
Highland God Almighty, if John Swinney were as incompetent as you would like to think he is and the SNP figures so bizarely wrong nobody in the country would be supporting them.

As it is everyone in the country is supporting them apart from you, AM2 and a few other unionist luddites.

Your posts are looking increasingly desperate, but then.....these are increasingly desperate times for Labour.
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01/07/2008 16:16:42
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Jock MacTamson 2,

Highlands 01/07/2008 16:17:17
#305 Highland Mighty

imPOSTer of the decade
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Liz,

Edinburgh 01/07/2008 16:20:42
#310
The SNP are only as popular as they are because the Scottish Labour party are so ridiculously awful that no one in their right mind would possibly vote for them. I do not believe that many people actually want Independence but most feel badly let down by Labour.
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ThomasP,

01/07/2008 16:21:09
306 Richard1.

You should compare overall oil production and the increase in demand over the past 5 or 10 years.

It clearly shows demand growing faster then production and India and China still have hundreds of millions of people to help out of poverty.

It does not matter if Iraq becomes another Saudi because oil prices will never be the same again. India and China will take advantage of the oil in future which will not make a dent in 'available' oil.
256

ThomasP,

01/07/2008 16:22:33
315 Richard1.

I can't see why you are claiming Scotland relies on England to buy her stuff.

You can't even tell me exactly what England buys from Scotland.
257

ThomasP,

01/07/2008 16:25:54
320 Richard1.

I didn't say China wanted more cars.

China and India are modernising like the West. Industires, Comapnies, individuals...they all need oil or their economic growth will slow down.

Do you think China will go back to becoming poor?
258

Brian Hill,

01/07/2008 16:26:04
Highland mighty says: 261. So oil production is dropping rapidly at 10% a year "doesn't matter" to the nats.

Interesting.

Oil production dropping 10% per year but quadrupling in price in less than 2 years is still better returns than was produced in the 70s and 80s....do the maths.

Also, now that oil is $144 and RISING, smaller pockets of oil are now worth drilling for, so production is set to rise again, but even without Oil Independence is still a goal we should all be striving for, though no doubt you will be able to bore us to death with more 'cooked' figures which will show an Independent Scotland in a worse state than Zimbabwe within 3 months. Dream on HM.
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01/07/2008 16:26:20
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John R. Constable,

England 01/07/2008 16:30:54
#289

These Scottish politicians plying their trade at Westminster know that they can never 'go home' politically speaking.

Some of these politicians, especially those at the higher levels, would rather move on to a feather-bedded EU slot than return to Scotland.

Virtually all of these Scottish politicians at Westminster would see returning to Holyrood as a retrograde step.

For reasons I'd rather not mention as it is highly insulting to native Scots.
261

Marthalions,

01/07/2008 16:31:11
324 Brian Hill

You say

Price 400% compared to 80s.

80s Prices 50% of todays in real terms via RPI

So prices really 200% of orgingal.

10% per year decrease = 2008-1980 = 28

100%*90%^28 = 5.23%

So... 5.23% * 200% = 10.46% in today in terms of tax in real terms using the numbers you provided.

Can you do the math?

Yummy, get a whiff of that Nationalist dung, it's such a turn on.
262

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 01/07/2008 16:34:12
Liz #316 The problem doesn't lie with the the Labour Party, most of whose members are as good as any other party, the problem lies within the system which Labour must operate i.e. a system which is geared towards English needs first, the rest a long second behind.

and Richard #318, your getting in a bit of a flap...it's Brian Hill not John...take your time, you'll have to pace yourself for Glasgow East.....NIGHTMARE!!
263

Rodster,

Glasgow 01/07/2008 16:34:43
Richard is quite right , if Scotland became Independent England would immediately stop buynig Oil from us , never eat a fish or switch on the electricity from exported Scottish Hydro , would never take an insurance form Scottish widows or bank with the Royal Bank of Scotland or Nat West , and heavens forbid they would drink whisky or eat the finest beef in the world .
Do you realise how stupid your comments are Richard or does that come with being one of those see now ,hear no say no other than Rule Brittania?
264

ThomasP,

01/07/2008 16:35:52
326 Richard1.

Yes. I can and have saw what you wrote. China are India will not rule out oil completely. It would be foolish to suggest that China of all countries would focus on coal while oil is more efficient.

India is also expected to pass China's population in 2050. India's energy needs will only grow and oil will be her main worry.
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ThomasP,

01/07/2008 16:37:18
332 Rodster,Glasgow

I completey agree.

See Richard. Your claims are total rubbish.
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All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 01/07/2008 16:37:31
#304

I was opposed to the Invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan I approved of as does the UN. The strategic nuclear detterent held by sevral countries has seen the longest ever period without a war being fought in Europe. I disagree with the 10p tax bracket changes. Paying city spivs high bonuses happens in Edinburgh as well as London. As for your Zimbabwae comment that merely demonstrates an extremely poor understanding of geopolitics.
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Jock MacTamson 2,

Highlands 01/07/2008 16:37:41
#325 Martha the Troll said " Let me start by pretending not Highland Mighty....
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Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 01/07/2008 16:39:11
Marthalions #328, you obviously had fun with the maths, but don't strain yourself, the only figures you have to focus on are : $144 and this word RISING.....I know, sends shivers down your spine doesn't it?

Have you tried lying down in a dark room with a cold compass? ask Highland M,I'm sure he is a regular user of this calmer dooner.
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ThomasP,

01/07/2008 16:41:55
338 Richard1.

Oil Companies go where they can profit.

It is called Capitalism and this is what Capitalism is about - Profits.

The higher the oil prices then the more oil in the NE that can be reached and return a profit.
270

Rodster,

Glasgow 01/07/2008 16:42:11
Thomas P maybe the solution to India's problems is to get back under the crown and let Gordy boy listen to their problems and sort them out for them ..
Easy, job done , get rid of that Indian Parliament and get a few of our soon to be out of work Labour MPs MSPs etc ( a job for Wendy even)into Westminster to look after India.
We can have a Sec'y of state for India perhaps Jim Murphy could take that role on too?
Now when will those pesky Americans realise what a terrible mistake they made leaving Westminster??
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ThomasP,

01/07/2008 16:42:43
339 Richard1.

Have you saw the report that shows the Scottish Financial Capital in better shape then Londons?
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01/07/2008 16:42:45
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ThomasP,

01/07/2008 16:44:11
#341 Rodster.

Of course. The Union is of course that great then we should be invading the former Common Wealth and forcing them back into this Party.

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ThomasP,

01/07/2008 16:46:44
345 Richard1.

I said better shape.

I didn't say was doing better.

Idiot.
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ThomasP,

01/07/2008 16:47:50
346 Richard1.

"thomas P,INDIA,invested nearly 60bn pounds in london last year,that's 50% of Scotland's entire GDP."

Our Block Grant. Not our actual GDP.


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Rodster,

Glasgow 01/07/2008 16:48:18
335 Directly or indirectly you support and aided the illegal wars , and the 10 pence rate your continuing support of Westminster is your latent approval .
If the deterrent works why not let every country have WMDS then?
If Israel has them then why not Iran Syria and Lebanon have them too.
That would by your logic mean peace and stability in the Middle East
As to no war in Europe I do seem to remember a little scuffle in the Balkans . maybe it is your geopolitical knowledge that needs a little sharpening
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ThomasP,

01/07/2008 16:48:33
My mistake I mis-read #346
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Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 01/07/2008 16:51:15
In the words of Abe Lincoln who holds the respect of all freedom loving peoples, "The privilege of creating and issuing money is not only the supreme prerogative of Government, but it is the Government's greatest creative opportunity."

Of course it could be said that the first political party in Britain to heed those words and put them into practice would have such an advantage over the opposition as to remain in power for ever.

Perhaps the reason we do not have a science of economics is because it would ruin the game of party politics and give us a strange new sort of democracy.

Strange, because we have never experienced what Government of the people, by the people, for the people is actually like. It has never been tried!
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Rodster,

Glasgow 01/07/2008 16:51:50
344 Thomas if it was that good they would be invading us and begging Westminster to take them back
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ThomasP,

01/07/2008 16:56:03
353 Richard1.

Scotlands growth is actually lower then the rest of the UK.

How much is Scotland loosing by being apart of the UK should be the question.

But yes you have shown the Union does not need Scotland so we should be on our way and become Independent.
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All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 01/07/2008 16:57:38
#349

Your classic error is to see labour as the Union, these policies are Labour policies not Union policies. Can be opposed at westminster just as at Holyrood. I missed the declaration of war in the Balkans by the way, it was a horrible civil war which led to an EU led peacekeeeping action. We both know that I was reffering to a major war between two or more major powers. As to nuclear proliferation and MAD maybe it would lead to peace and stability. Israel has never used hers in fact nobody has since 1945.
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Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 01/07/2008 17:02:22
Richard and Mathalion, the only people laughing on this board are supporters of Independence. I think you'll find it's we who are riding high in the polls, we who still have a leader and we who are looking forward to the coming by-election with relish.

Oh and guys....do you think you could try and get your figures on Oil from the Oil economists instead of the Labour party handouts or the Beano? You'll find that new exploration licenses are being granted for the Scottish sector of the North Sea faster than they can print them.....slight exageration but you get the picture.

Meanwhile: $144 3 cents and RISING, the one word argument which is going to seal the Independence referendum.
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Rodster,

Glasgow 01/07/2008 17:10:09
356 De facto if you support Union you support the Labour or Tory or illeberal Parties therefore you support the democratic decisions of that parliament .
do not try and absolve yourself of any blame .
the other thing open to you is only to quote the policies and the party of your choice , I know I and every other Nationalist on here do that .
Inlike people like richard who do not even have the guts or gumption to give a location of abode on here .
that is the difference we have nothing to hide , nothing to defend .
We are able to give reasons wa=y beyond as well as including finance as to our rrasons to want Self Dtermination .
You on the other hand have only the one weapon lies ,lies , more lies and statistics.
You cannot give me a reason beyond the Second world war as to why we should remain in the union .
what is it that binds us , it is no longer the Empire ,which granted Scotland did well in , all that was good about the Union of 1707 was negated in 1972 when Ted herath signed the Treaty of Rome taking UK into EU
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All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 01/07/2008 17:14:10
#359

You have self determination, you live in a democracy. persuade enough people to support you and you can do anything.
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All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 01/07/2008 17:19:36
#360
About as informed as most SNP drones on defence the carrier contract was signed in Portsmouth today.
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AberdeenAngus,

01/07/2008 17:20:44
358
Richard1,

*Rodster,sre you another schooly* What language is this?

*UK GDP ARROX =£1450BN* What is Arrox?

SCOTLAND
N-IRELAND
WALES

*COMBINED APRROX* =170 Aprrox is no better than Arrox

*YOU AND TOM DO THE MATH'S THIS IS POINLESS!* Why the apostrophe on Maths and what is Poinless?

I put your post through Google translator and babelfish. It gave up. So do I. Mindless drivel.
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Rodster,

Glasgow 01/07/2008 17:20:53
Richard I think it is you that is on the tit , or at least doing a good impersonation of being one!!
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ThomasP,

01/07/2008 17:26:02
#363

Correct. After about 3-4 years of delays.

Do you think that had an inpact on an already declining Industry?
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All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 01/07/2008 17:28:14
#366
Far more worried about the capability gap left due to its late entry into service.
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01/07/2008 17:28:15
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ThomasP,

01/07/2008 17:33:39
368 Highland Mighty...

Scotland wouldn't have influence within the EU though

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01/07/2008 17:38:34
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ThomasP,

01/07/2008 17:39:45
Highland Mighty...

Then the Union remains pointless.

And the UK will only ever have the most influence within the EU when France and Germany fall out.
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01/07/2008 17:42:58
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Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

01/07/2008 17:43:43
225 All Politicians are the same,Scotland 01/07/2008 11:59:49

Since when has the UK not had Bio and Chem weapons?
If what you mean is 'plausible deniability' about BC weapons I agree. But the UK still has stockpiles of BC weapons, try Porton Down amongst others.

As for comparing Norwegian defence expenditure with any in a post Independence Scotland, I fear you are fogging the issue.
Norway's GDP is $391.4bn, Netherlands $529.1bn Scotland's is estimated at $170bn, so hardly comparing apples with apples now are you?
In fact my estimate of >£1bn, would be roughly in line with Norway's spending based on a %age of GDP, but a lot less than the Netherlands, who for reasons best known to themselves, have quite a 'large standing force'.

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Media 1,

cape town 01/07/2008 17:43:49
Look at the end of the day, Scotland is wealthier and better off than at any time in her history and she has been for many years now. The recent price hikes across the board are not independent to Scotland, they are universal trends, we are all suffering.
The bottom line is that Scotland will never become independent and that is ok because the most important thing has always been freedom, which Scotland has in abundance.
Long live Scotland and her powerful seat at the union table.
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Tormod,

Auld Reekie 01/07/2008 17:46:35
HM I've read what passes for your comments, you are at the wind up, I've well I would not say jousted with you, as when presented with information that contradicts your own, or asked to backup your claims start the usual diatribe of myopia.

I am trying to work out your angle of logic and measure your argument, you are all over the place.

Now if you would outline your arguement please, yes I have read GERS.

Is your argument that Scotland is in huge deficit?

That North Sea Oil revenues are not important?

Because North sea deposits are mature they will diminish in value?

Scotland is what exactly?

Please explain.
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ThomasP,

01/07/2008 17:47:55
374 Media 1,cape town

"Long live Scotland and her powerful seat at the union table."

You really do not have a clue how the UK works.

I think you should stick to your own politics rather then interfear with Scotlands.
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Tormod,

Auld Reekie 01/07/2008 17:49:18
374 I take a different view from you. Scotland can and will be a better place after independence because Scots will decide how and best to run our own country.
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01/07/2008 17:51:04
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Tormod,

Auld Reekie 01/07/2008 17:51:35
Hi Tom @ 376 HM is a wind up merchant I have gone up against him before and he usually decries folk as stupid or knuckle draggers etc. When forced into a corner and asked to produce the goods he fails time and time again.
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AberdeenAngus,

01/07/2008 17:51:46
Highland Mighty

Hello there Highland. Maybe we are neighbours.

I had a wee keek at your link there. Apparently it's from 2004 and is now out of date. Here are my out of date headlines.

1 Resurgent Germany overtakes Britain and US (August 15th 2006)

2 The Ifo Economics Institute said today that it raised its German GDP growth forecast for this year to 2.4% from 1.8%. 2009 will only be 1.0%. The prices for oil and raw materials as well as the strong euro are to blame.

Roll on 2020. Then again the figures for UK growth/recession/unemployment/inflation etc change every week. Who knows (apart from your good self) how the world will be in twelve years?

The economists don't know. They do guess though.

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Media 1,

cape town 01/07/2008 17:53:58
ThomasP

I am still very actively involved in Scotland. I am home a lot throughout the year and have been living in Scotland for 3 to 4 months of the year every year for a long time now. I reside in Edinburgh and Aberdeen when I am there so I am all too familiar with Scotland in today, and I for one am pleased with our progress.
We are free, we are affluent and we are experiencing real quality of life. People now, more than any time in the history of Scotland are buying cars, houses and holidays not to mention good clothing and good food.
Freedom as I have said, is most important and since that is something Scotland has in abundance, it is good times indeed.
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01/07/2008 17:54:09
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All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 01/07/2008 17:54:21
#373

Since the early 1990s Porton Down is a research site. Unfortunately defence is not about howm much of your GDP you spend in total or even per person. it is capability driven. X amount of capability costs Y pounds.
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Tormod,

Auld Reekie 01/07/2008 17:54:44
HM as somebody who was recently in Berlin on business if you think UK PLC is going to take over Germany you really have to stop eating the funny fruit laddie.
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shivago8,

livingston 01/07/2008 17:55:47
Highland mighty seems to have been on here all day.
Obviously does not work.
Obviously claiming income support and other freebie handouts
Collects his fix at the chemist every day and on the house obviously,
I ask everyone,dont engage with him,he is obviously high on something
Des Browne the teddy boy lookalike must stay in Engerland as he is not welcome this side of hadrians dyke
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Media 1,

cape town 01/07/2008 17:57:36
McMadman

The difference between you and I is this.

I see Scotland as a big dog, whereas you see her as a little English lap dog.
The reason for that? I have never bought into the small minded SNP rhetoric. I have never permitted the SNP to cloud my vision about Scotland. Unlike them I am passionate about Scotland, whereas they are anti English and defeatest.
They want you to believe that Scotland is a nothing, but is she hell.
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Tormod,

Auld Reekie 01/07/2008 17:59:45
HM Sweden's army when fully mobilized is something in the region of 320,000 personel but again don't let facts get in the way.

The UK armed forces are not in the middle of a major upgrade, capabilities have been reduced. Most infantry regiments are undermanned.
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01/07/2008 18:01:14
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brownlie,

01/07/2008 18:02:44
Highland Mighty

So, your message to the electorate of Glasgow East is a shambling attempt to prove that Scotland as an independent nation would sink into oblivion without the kindly neighbours to sustain it.

You have not posted one single positive thing that our glorious unionist cause could do to help the electorate.

One point you continually made about Alex Salmond and his party encouraging hatred of the English - I see no evidence of that in any of their stated views so I wonder if you have any evidence to back it up.

I notice you have managed to start posting as Richard1 to supplement your views and to rubber stamp your rubbish. Would you not consider just shortening it to 1 Dick as it would be more appropriate.

What happened to your British Pride or have you lost that?

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01/07/2008 18:02:45
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01/07/2008 18:02:51
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01/07/2008 18:04:28
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01/07/2008 18:07:07
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01/07/2008 18:07:42
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Rodster,

Glasgow 01/07/2008 18:07:47
Media 1 you are nothing short of dishonest .
you have been told many times however let me repeat for you once again.
The SNP and Nationalists are not haters of the English wee hate Westminster and all it stands for , although I detest Scottish Uncle toms more they are the lowest form of political animal one that will stoop to any level ,tell any lie , accept any illegal donation ,back illegal wars , support the worst social deprivation in the western world and come out with comments like above " you have never had it so good
all to keep their seat at the big bosses table at Westminster , so they can feel important and to hell with the folks back in their constituencies .
No need to worry about them there are plenty of voting fodder people like you with no guts , no vision and an acceptance of mediocrity
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Tormod,

Auld Reekie 01/07/2008 18:08:19
HM OECD lists UK tax take as being 37.2%
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The Tin Man,

01/07/2008 18:08:36
#388 McMadman

You comment does appear to smack of 'down-trodden minority' syndrome. The same could be said of MP's from Wales, NI, Cornwall, Yorkshire, Northumbria, East Anglia, Lancashire, Cumbria, etc, etc.
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Tormod,

Auld Reekie 01/07/2008 18:10:02
HM do you know what the current fiscal balance sheet of the UK is?
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01/07/2008 18:10:51
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Tormod,

Aye to that 400. 01/07/2008 18:12:12
Aye to that 400
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01/07/2008 18:12:25
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,

01/07/2008 18:14:26
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Media 1,

cape town 01/07/2008 18:14:31
McMadman

No you dont! You Sir, see Scotland as some little English lap dog. You have been brainwashed into believing that Scotland is a victim, thus you play the downtrodden SNP card at every turn and you hijack issues such as the MP head count to protect your arguement. You will clutch as many straws as it takes to try and portray Scotland as a little English lap dog and it really is disturbing.
I remember walking past a pub in Edinburgh and hearing a roar so loud I thought Scotland must have won the world cup, but alas it was only England going one down against Argentina.
And when you question this outrageous and utterly primitive hatred, you are told it is just healthy rivalry. But those of us who know better understand such behaviour for what it is, and "healthy" rivalry has little to do with it.
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01/07/2008 18:14:33
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,

01/07/2008 18:16:05
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01/07/2008 18:17:20
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01/07/2008 18:17:30
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Media 1,

cape town 01/07/2008 18:17:36
I say Scotland is a wonderful and magnificent nation. I say Scotland is a powerful nation, NOT some little English lap dog.
Be proud of Scotland and put an end to this SNP small minded nonsense.
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01/07/2008 18:17:52
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01/07/2008 18:18:56
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AberdeenAngus,

01/07/2008 18:19:46
393
Highland Mighty...,
01/07/2008 18:04:28
390. "Try to avoid calling me names here unless you are willing to say them to my face, little boy."

I believe you are mad. You tell a poster to stop calling you names, then call him little boy? Mad.

And how about your big hard-man act "unless you are willing to say them to my face." Wooo be afraid.

Yeah. Big tough guy Highland. That'll sway the "don't knows."

What are you on? Read this numptie. For all we know you're a 7 stone weakling hiding behind a keyboard and acting the wee tough guy. Even if you're not, who cares? You are a cybermouth.

ps...happy to meet up any time to kick your sorry ar­se.

pps As I said earlier; we may be neighbours.
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01/07/2008 18:20:46
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01/07/2008 18:21:14
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Nikostratos,

01/07/2008 18:22:00
#396

Seems a tad difficult to believe you are not a person who is not full of hate reading your somewhat 'Racist' post.......... uncle toms..........
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01/07/2008 18:22:25
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01/07/2008 18:23:42
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AberdeenAngus,

01/07/2008 18:24:23
405
Highland Mighty...,
01/07/2008 18:14:33
395. "Your post has not changed from being utter gibberish full of contradiction and inaccuracies.

Also, any chance of your address?"

There you again tough guy. LMAO

ps... not a good idea about addresses. Someone did that some time ago.

ps... That right neighbour?
pps... still around 20 working in your office?
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Tormod,

Auld Reekie 01/07/2008 18:24:34
Hi HM @ 402 still trying the same tactic I see och well. So Sweden does have a larger army then good stuff some are active, most are reservists that is true. So why don't you start a wee war to test their capabilities then?

Well those new carriers are not even built yet, what there finally capability will be, will decided by cost and not operationally decisions oops!

The new subs aren't quite there yet our American friends have had to step in to get the programme back on track, I take it you are referring to the astute class, of course of which 4 will be built the rest being cancelled. I bet the chinese are bricking it at that news.

Tactical transport on loan from the Americans, UAV on loan from the Americans, do you see a pattern amerging!

The MOD trying to do things on the cheap as always, The UK has only the resources to deploy forces over a long distance for a short time. Try reading some of the defense studies on force deployment.

Again I would love to see the type of fruit you grow in your garden laddie.
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01/07/2008 18:24:41
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AberdeenAngus,

01/07/2008 18:26:07
407
McMadman,


"If you are threatening me, then I'm unlikely to give you my address. I will not be bullied by you though and am unafraid of you. Any time, date and venue you like. Post one up here and I'll see you there."

Yo! It's Fight Club 2. Put me down for a ring-side seat.
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01/07/2008 18:26:25
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AberdeenAngus,

01/07/2008 18:26:51
Highland Mighty: Idiot Savant without the savant.
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The Tin Man,

01/07/2008 18:27:07
#402 HM

Admittedly, the SNP's 'Defence Policy' is a piece of utter drivel (Faslane Yes! ..... Nukes No!... erm...), but I don't see what Scotland would need significant armed forces for. Anyway, in the event of anything untoward, it would be in the strategic intrests of other countries to intervene, but anyway, who cares. All the trouble in the world will happen whether Scotland is independent, or not.
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AberdeenAngus,

01/07/2008 18:28:37
414
Highland Mighty...,
01/07/2008 18:21:14
412. Brilliant.

"Just bloody brilliant."

Thanks Gladys.
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01/07/2008 18:29:02
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brownlie,

01/07/2008 18:29:04
402 Highland

With reference to John Swinney's economic ability have you had the chance to see the National Audit Office's report on the MOD - Des Browne's department.

The eight Chinook Helicopters which were bought for use in Irag and now Afghanistan in 2001 will not be in use until, hopefully, 2010.

Because they were not fit for purpose and are kept in humidified hangars the MOD, incredibly are going to pay the original suppliers, Boeing, an extra £58 million to correct their original mistakes.

You could not regard this as anything other than the economics of the madhouse and yet Browne is in a position to lecture others about economics.

Of course, the real tragedy is that without these helicopters our servicemen are being put at more risk and, sadly, losing their lives due to sheer incompetence.
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01/07/2008 18:31:38
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Nikostratos,

01/07/2008 18:32:44
#420

The scary thing is the more they believe they are getting nearer their 'Dream' the more aggressive they become. But they dont hate the English only 'westmonster' Which by any nationalist measure is an 'English' Parliament......A subtle difference that escapes most 'Normal' people.
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AberdeenAngus,

01/07/2008 18:33:11
Weird board this. Threatening behaviour across the screens. It's a madhouse here. Won't somebody think of the children?
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The Tin Man,

01/07/2008 18:34:46
Hissy-fit, hissy-fit, OIL, hissy-fit, hissy-fit, AM2, hissy-fit, hissy-fit, hissy-fit, TROLLs, hissy-fit, OIL, hissy-fit.
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Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

01/07/2008 18:37:17
383 All Politicians are the same,Scotland 01/07/2008 17:54:21

Porton has, for as long as I can remember( I was in the Military in the 70's)'officially' a 'research station' (plausible deniability).
Defence is 'requirements driven' i.e. What are the necessary elements required to secure 'our borders' and defend 'our resources'?
Far from your hypotheses that 'X' amount of 'capability' costs 'Y' pounds, if only it was that simple.
The fact remains that an Independent Scotland would not require a large standing Air Force, nor a 'large shipped' standing navy nor indeed an Imperial sized land force, so the figures I put forward, at today's rates, would be in line with the spending of most small non-warmongering nations.
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The Tin Man,

01/07/2008 18:37:39
Hissy-fit, hissy-fit, GERS, hissy-fit, hissy-fit, ARMED FORCES, hissy-fit, UN SECURITY COUNCIL, hissy-fit, hissy-fit, IMPORTANT IN THE WORLD, hissy-fit.
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01/07/2008 18:38:10
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AberdeenAngus,

01/07/2008 18:39:05
Nikostratos

Aggressive? Check out the post from Mighty Mouse. He's hard you know. He must be because he typed it.

ps I'm not aggressive and I'll blooter anyone who says I am. OK?

ps Is your name Greek or should it be Nike Stratus (damn fine Basketball footwear)
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brownlie,

01/07/2008 18:39:41
429 Highland

If you cannot see the point then you are even more stupid that your postings show.

If even one life could have been saving by the deployment of these helicopters there would be one less family to mourn in this country.

Mind you - as you previously quoted
"Am I supposed to feel sorry about 20.000 innocent Iraqis being killed..." I do not suppose it affects you one way or another.
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01/07/2008 18:40:44
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AberdeenAngus,

01/07/2008 18:43:39
Highland Mighty

"Today really is the dregs"

You are probably correct up to a point. Take away your gibberish and the boards are pretty good.

Off for a drink now with the girls?
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01/07/2008 18:43:58
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thinking,

Scotland 01/07/2008 18:44:01
'why does Scotland not feel like the land of milk and honey?'
Could it be because it is going on more MSPs than we had MPs plus we still have MPs. Also all their expenses, quangos, mismanaged building budgets etc etc etc?
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01/07/2008 18:44:09
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brownlie,

01/07/2008 18:44:25
435 rabbie's brother

I was told by an RAF Serviceman that in the sixties they were invited for a week at Porton Down as they were researching for a "cure for the common cold".

These same servicemen invited to look at a nuclear explosion without any protection.
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brownlie,

01/07/2008 18:47:05
444 Highland

My point is to act as the conscience of the glorious unionist cause - it's a shame you let the rest of us down with your nonsense.

Are you denying that you made that statement so I can show you up as a liar.

Where is your British Pride?
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01/07/2008 18:47:45
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AberdeenAngus,

01/07/2008 18:48:00
Highland Mighty

"The non-existance of your argument is as clear as day."

Non-existence please. Your spelling as as good as your arguments.
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Conan the Librarian™,

01/07/2008 18:52:46
443
Are people forming a queue to meet HM?
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AberdeenAngus,

01/07/2008 18:55:54
The Cambridge Bar - Edinburgh

The Cambridge Bar is one of Edinburgh 's more stylish pubs situated in the heart of the bustling city centre.

Tuesday night is fight night. This is followed by our ever-popular karaoke featuring our very own Highland (put up yer dukes) Mighty.

Har-de-friggin­g-har-har.
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01/07/2008 18:57:07
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AberdeenAngus,

01/07/2008 19:00:38
Shakespears bar

Ambience poor. Doubles are cheap though, but that attracts the riff-raff. Service is very poor. The food is cheap and tasteless. Tuesday night is THE venue for fight-night. Tonight we feature Highland (hold my coat) Mighty and the ever-popular Heid'im McMadman.

Unfortunately the bout tonight has been called off as HM lives in England and can't get there in time.
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Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

01/07/2008 19:01:02
429 Highland Mighty...,01/07/2008 18:31:38

The RAF currently operates 35 Chinook HC2 helicopters, not the 43 that it should have, so it only has 81% of it's HC2 assets available for service.

If you then take the permanent Stanley based HC2 out that leaves 34 or 79% available, then we have silly mundane things ,like planned servicing which also reduces the number available, being conservative, say 10% of those available, on any given day so now we're down to 30 or 69%, and that doesn't take into account' catastrophic failures','battle damage'or 'routine failures'.

So I guess your right then 'Eight Chinooks are small part of the entire fleet!!!!'

Just, What is your point? Higland Muppet!!

Do you expect our very brave young men and women to fly around on HC2 bristling with 'red-lines'?

You really do come up with some spuke sunshine!!!
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Conan the Librarian™,

01/07/2008 19:02:51
462
If your buying I'll be there.
Though I've not drunk on Lothian Road for a long time.
Too many big mouthed trouble makers there for my liking.
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01/07/2008 19:03:06
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Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

01/07/2008 19:03:51
461 McMadman,http://scottishreferendum2008.blogspot.com 01/07/2008

Naw canny agree wie that the word rhyming with 'Irish Bank Manager', so I am told by my female friends, is a thing not to be f cuked around with ;-))
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01/07/2008 19:04:03
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AberdeenAngus,

01/07/2008 19:04:40
OK folks

Calm down and watch how the match would look. It's a classic.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zskO9O3hF78
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Highland Mighty©.,

01/07/2008 19:04:59
What is the largest object you have managed to stuff your bum? Simple rules, the object has to have dissapeared at least 75% up your bum and it must not have got stuck. I once managed to get a 1.5L metal mini-keg of austrian lager up my derrier.
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01/07/2008 19:05:14
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Highland Mighty©.,

01/07/2008 19:06:39
I.scratch my schpincter and sniff my fingers. I also know a lot about oil and independence














Saor Alba
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AberdeenAngus,

01/07/2008 19:07:10
Highland

You are being faked by a nutter.
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AberdeenAngus,

01/07/2008 19:11:13
477

Your fake also fakes SNP posters. Same modus operandi. It's a weird day right enough. Is this supposed to be quality press?
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Conan the Librarian™,

01/07/2008 19:18:02
486
Evening Ayrshire, all hats off and furry boots on.
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Highland Mighty©.,

01/07/2008 19:21:08
It really must be quite sad being perpetually negative
all the time with never a positive outlook on
what Scotland can and could be.

From the Unionist "expert" on the ship building
expert.
"shipbuilding in Europe is a dying industry"

Saor Alba
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01/07/2008 19:21:25
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AberdeenAngus,

01/07/2008 19:21:36
I don't know who posts the most rubbish It's either Highland Mighty... or Highland Mighty©.
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01/07/2008 19:22:10
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Hamish Scott,

01/07/2008 19:22:23
The Scottish Parliament budget is NOT £30 billion, it is £26.3 billion for 2007/2008. That also means it is NOT double the initial Holyrood budget.
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Conan the Librarian™,

01/07/2008 19:24:56
497
Highland Mighty talks sh'te, Highland Mighty© eats it as well...
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