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'Focus on terror heroes is distraction from real threat'

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Published Date: 01 May 2008
SCOTLAND is running the risk of complacency about the threat of terrorism and the prospect of new generations of suicide bombers being reared in its communities, an expert warned yesterday.
Professor Paul Wilkinson, of St Andrews University, told The Scotsman much more work was needed on a range of fronts to curb the growth of radicalism and the influence of extremists.

He said there was a real risk of another attack unless there was greater vigilance from the public, more co-operation between the judiciary and government, and better efforts by the police to engage with communities at "grassroots" level.

Speaking ahead of a conference on terrorism in Glasgow, he predicted new anti-terror laws would not work unless the authorities gained the trust of community and religious leaders, and were able to identify early those who were "vulnerable" to being groomed as terrorists.

Mr Wilkinson said the amount of attention devoted to the Glasgow Airport "heroes" and the political storm about the time suspects should be held without being charged were "distractions" from the need to monitor terrorist networks.

He said: "If people had been sceptical about the risks of a terrorist attack, we had overwhelming evidence last summer that there is a serious problem.

"We've since seen growing evidence in court cases of the levels of radicalisation around the country. There is still a risk of complacency in Scotland and there needs to be much more of an emphasis on preventing any future incidents. The amount of attention focused on the airport heroes has been unfortunate and a distraction from the real issues. People need to be vigilant and realise the risk of terrorism does not end at Hadrian's Wall."

Prof Wilkinson said it was vital to have better dialogue between the police, security services, the government and the judiciary, with communities, employers and organisations, educationalists and religious leaders. He argued for community-level prevention strategies. "That's the way forward, or we'll have generations of self-styled martyrs," he said.

A spokesman for the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland said: "We all need to be vigilant and ensure the co-operation and participation of all Scotland's communities, institutions and businesses.

"A great deal of work is going on to achieve that and make sure Scotland is as safe as possible from terrorism."

Osama Saeed, spokesman for the Scottish-Islamic Foundation, declined to comment on whether Muslim communities were comfortable with the drive by police and security services to root out radicals. He said Scotland's Muslims were trying to co-operate, but there was no evidence of radicalisation.

SUMMIT ON EVE OF AIRPORT ATTACK ANNIVERSARY

LAST June's attack on Glasgow Airport came 24 hours after two cars carrying petrol and gas canisters were found in central London. Two men will stand trial later this year accused of conspiracy to cause explosions.

An appeal is being planned by Mohammed Atif Siddique, the first Scot convicted of al-Qaeda-inspired terrorist offences. The student was jailed for eight years last year.

Professor Wilkinson, who chairs the advisory board of the centre for the study of terrorism and political violence at St Andrews, will be one of the keynote speakers at a major terrorism summit to be held on the eve of the first anniversary of the airport attack.

He will be joined by Britain's new counter-terrorism chief, Charles Farr, and Ed Husain, , whose best-selling book, The Islamist, told of his involvement in a number of radical groups while growing up in east London. Brian Sweeney, of Strathclyde Fire and Rescue, will provide an insight into the airport attack.


Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 01 May 2008 8:45 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Terrorism in the UK
 
1

Conan the Librarian™,

01/05/2008 00:09:10
"SCOTLAND is running the risk of complacency about the threat of terrorism and the prospect of new generations of suicide bombers being reared in its communities, an expert warned yesterday."

Indeed.
A radical muslim old firm supporter is a terrifying thought.
2

R. Slicker,

01/05/2008 00:30:43
Who cares? Everything's fine.


Mind you, I had a squirrel in my garden today. He looked a bit secretive.


Secret Squirrel ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ?


Aaaaarrrrrgggghhh!




We're doomed!
3

Alfred E. Neuman,

01/05/2008 00:46:10
I wonder if it was part of his speaking fee to whip a bit of false panic to help Labour get through there 42 days jail term without charge or trial.

Cameron was a class act at PM questions quoting that labour minister on radio.

"This [42 days] is barmy, but i'll vote for it."
4

James F. Blake,

Oshawa 01/05/2008 00:58:26
This problem can simply be solved by an even greater abrogation of your rights and the installation of more traffic cameras. You people have been falling for this for decades.
9/11, 7/7 and 7/21 were inside jobs.
5

Senga Jean,

Scotland 01/05/2008 01:02:14
Of course we should all take terrorism seriously. However care must be taken to avoid losing more in an over reaction than terrorism itself causes. We must not be the recruiting sergeant for terrorism by our insensitive actions and definitely not by pursuing an illegal and inflammatory foreign policy.
6

,

01/05/2008 01:08:10
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
7

Lynne,

Palm Beach Gardens 01/05/2008 01:32:33
I wonder if you realize that just by sending troops into Iraq and Afghanistan, Scotland has p***ed off Al Qaeda? They have explained in their audio tapes, that anyone who helped the US, and fought in Iraq and Afghanistan will pay the price?

They have even threatened Iran because they dared to have a conspiracy theory that Israel and the US did the World Trade Center themselves.. thereby claiming Muslims could not pull off this terror!!

So all of you sit back, or better yet go back to sticking your heads in the sand.. There is homegrown terrorism you can worry about instead.
8

indune1,

Canada 01/05/2008 02:01:54

6 - dear wee Jeanie - wtf is the colour of the sky in your world?

9 - Lynne - anything, I repeat anything, the West does, pi**es off Al Qaeda. Every sewer has a rat.
9

Guga II,

Rockall 01/05/2008 03:53:04
Typical New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party propaganda. Whip up the fear of terrorism to a fever pitch, then the masses won't protest if their rights and freedoms are taken away.

The main cause of any terrorism in this country is the actions of an incompetent government that, among other things, indulges in illegal wars.

This is also the same government that allows hordes of so-called refugees to pour into the country, unchecked, gives them handouts and lets them stay for as long as they want.

Bliar, Broon and their ilk have a lot to answer for.
10

W Smith,

Middle East 01/05/2008 04:02:21
This headline is wrong.

It should read "Salmond and MacAskill are compalacent about terror threat".

Salmond and MacAskill are happy for the police to use 'dawn raids' against non-muslim non-fanatical white Scottish gamekeepers!

However, when the same tactics are used against muslim terrorist supsects (or is it 'asians'?) just listen to them start their rant about 'dicrimination'.

Norton Virus Salmond claims to have the supernatural ability to 'scan' the muslim community in Scotland and in 2001 our Alex claimed that all the muslims living in Scotland were 'patriotic'.

In other words 'no terrorist virus found'.

THIS MAN'S ABIITY IS TRULY AMAZING IS IT NOT?

(MacAskill had to cover Salmonds mistake by adding the 'born and bred in Scotland' muslims were not a threat- after the incident at Glasgow Aiport).

This amazing ability should be put to use by the police more often then eh?

No need for conga lines at Edinburgh Airport - just get Salmond and MacAskill to do the 'SNP security check scan'.

In my opinion, if a terrorist bomb goes off in say Waverly railway station then Salmond and MacAskill should be charged with negligence.

Some of us will not forget how they both ran down to the nearest Mosque as if to 'apologise' for the fact Smeaton and co. put a stop to the evil plot to kill innocent Scots.

Meanwhile Salmond's protest friend Galloway says things like "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter".
11

The Trossachs Hasher,

01/05/2008 04:20:45
As has already been demonstrated by numerous undercover journalists, there are no end of "security gaps" throughout the country, yet we seem to have very few potential terrorists taking advanatage of them.

I do think there is a degree of danger and we should not be complacent about the terrorist threat, but I do think it is rather less than the authorities would have us believe.

In the quiet backwater where I live, the local council were advised by a "security expert" (how these guys are coining it in just now) that our security needed to be beefed up to the tune of £200,000. This was met with predictable guffaws of disbelief and the plan was dropped. There is more danger of the council being attacked by disgruntled member of the public complaining about their council tax/social work care/education of their child than some misguided youth seeking martyrdom.

The government are are placing too much emphasis on terrorism and are alienating an increasingly skeptical public with their ever increasing survelliance and security demands.

It should also be remembered that not many people were particularly surpised when the Glasgow Airport terrorists were found not to be Scottish born and bred.
12

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 01/05/2008 04:36:54
Thank Christ all these Neo Nutters all live in Canada, the US, Middle east and England.

We dont believe your crap. I for one choose not to want to hear your bigotry. If someone came into Scotland and blew the shoite out of a million Scots, I'd want to kill everyone of them. What we Scots have to do is very simple. Get shot of the UK and start to run our own race. Give our Scottish Defence Force a regiment of Engineers and turn up to help these people, not kill them. Speak up for Iranian and Iraqi rights to their own democratic rights. If they want to get rid of Western Puppets then thats their choice. I noticed an article the other day that mentioned that BP had taken over the Oil Plants in Iraq as part of the payback for the cost of the invasion that cost a million Iraqi's their lifes. Sounds like a good deal eh?.

Take your attempts to take the Arab Oil from them and shove them up your jacksy. Scots who happen to be Muslims are just as entitled to live in peace as any other Scot. We wont be hounding them like the Catholic Church did during the inquisition. We wont be looking at them as our enemy, Hitler did enough of that with the Jews and you can be sure that if any of them decide to do silly things, then we will take care of it in a better way than locking them up in a Guantamono Illegal Prison for five years without charge.

Take your putrid racist ideas and soak them in some disinfectant to kill the germs.

A Man A Man For Aw That and We are Aw Jock Thamson Bairns. Ye Halfwits!!!!!!!
13

Pilrig.,

Livingston 01/05/2008 06:12:30
12 - time for your medication
14

Pilrig.,

Livingston 01/05/2008 06:14:01
9 - ah yes, the Bush/Blair foreign policy, the great success story of our times.
15

,

01/05/2008 06:35:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
16

westcider,

Isle of Lewis 01/05/2008 06:57:34
Lynne PBG #9.
Don't imagine for a moment that these people can be appeased. They think nothing of wiping out dozens of their own fellow muslims in their attacks in the countries you mentioned as well as in Pakistan London Bali etc. They also have no problems with machine-gunning young girls who's only crime was to attend a school. Cutting the lips from women who dare to wear lipstick. All this in the name of some medieval religious belief system that defies common sense or scientific explanation and which calls for the non-compliant among us to be killed for our heresy. There is no easy solution to these monsters, they must be faced with resolution and hopefully a united front against this and every terror.
17

an interested party,

01/05/2008 06:58:31
you are more likely to die falling off a ladder than at the hands of a terrorist in this country

come to that you are more likely to commit suicide that be killed in a road accident

comon the ladder safety adverts
18

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 01/05/2008 07:08:29
#12 is one of the unionist (small u) wind-up merchants I'm afraid.
19

John S,

01/05/2008 07:21:18
The question is will Muslim community and there religious leaders notify the authorities of anyone in there midst acting in a suspicious manner ? I would say no because they will also be living in fear of these extremists and don't want to "rock the boat" it would also be unIslamic to turn over a Muslim brother to a non Islamic authority.
Some could be proud to have Muslim brothers who are taking the fight to the unbelievers.
Allah orders Muslims not to take Jews, Christians and other unbelievers as friends and never will Allah grant to the unbelievers a way (to triumphs) over the believers'
Honour, power and glory belong to Allah, His Messenger and to the believers
Islam doesn't need a nuclear bomb or the threat from terrorism to achieve world domination just the flow of people from Islamic to non Islamic countries and with a higher birthrate within the Muslim community time is on there side then there will be the demand for all in that non Islamic but now Islamic counry to comply with the Koran.
20

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 01/05/2008 08:00:14
#21 John S

There, there, (or is it “their, their”)?

Some terrorists are Asian, some Asians are Muslim, and therefore all Muslims are terrorists?

I hope you sleep with the light on in case the bogey man comes to get you.
21

Toast,

01/05/2008 08:37:44
Is this not a problem for the H&S Executive,load of scaremongering crap.
22

Dr. James Wilkie,

Vienna 01/05/2008 09:04:28
Continental European experience indicates that the danger does not arise from first-generation immigrants, but rather from their children and grandchildren. This was particularly brought out by the investigations into the Paris riots. The first arrivals are generally only too anxious to keep their heads down, but following native-born generations who have not been brought exclusively with the local language and culture, and as a result can encounter educational, social and employment difficulties, can erupt into violence.

The answer to this is, firstly, to restrict immigration from non-European cultures to the numbers that can be integrated without the formation of ghettos and parallel societies, and secondly, to ensure that those who settle are thoroughly integrated, socially, culturally and economically.

23

Loki - The Scourge of the Schemies,

EH1 01/05/2008 09:14:52
I feel at greater risk from the hordes of booze/drugs-crazed, blade-wielding GIRO warriors from the schemes than from the armies of alleged terrorists just waiting to swim across the English Channel with satchel charges attached.
24

Thistledhu,

Fife 01/05/2008 09:15:29
Scotland is a target for terrorists
blaming it on afghanistan and Iraq is akin to puting the cart before the the horse, Al queda was carrying out attacks in the 70,s there unchecked growth has lead to the situation we find ourselves in today.

There is complacency among local authority,s the scotish goverment and more worryingly the police,
how many have to die to silence the sceptic's and awaken those who should know better
25

donald anderson it's me,

01/05/2008 09:34:40
Profesor Wilkinson, still an English spy.
26

Duncan in Edinburgh,

01/05/2008 09:46:11
I wish we had the capacity to hold sensible, rational conversations on this topic. Instead, we politicise, criticise and fantasise.

Is it not a terribly obvious irony that every time we spend time or money worrying about potential attacks, we are handing terrorists a victory and an invitation to continue? If we change what we do as a result of terrorism, then terrorism is proved to work, and they will continue.

In this country, until 9/11, we knew how to deal with this stuff. The IRA campaigns were met with "business as usual" because we knew that if we changed, they would have won.

The hysterical, bluff and barbaric response of the US to 9/11 sent echoes across the Atlantic, and suddenly we in the UK are fighting "wars" against concepts and ideologies. Such "wars" cannot be won.

There are only two sensible responses to the threat of terrorism. First, identify any genuine, justifiable grievance and work to remove it - religiously inspired grievances do not count as genuine, but oppression such as that in Palestine does. Second, make it clear that our society will never be closed, that as a result anyone who really wants to harm us will be able to, and that we accept and acknowledge that fact. We prefer to be free and at risk than enslaved by fear.
27

Senga Jean,

01/05/2008 09:59:32
Gosh. Some of these posts frighten me more than the terrorists. Poking a stick in the wasps nest and other juvenile cruelties should not found the basis of our foreign policy. It is especially dangerous if both sides feel they will be rewarded in heaven. Thank God I am an atheist.
28

JimC,

Kilmarnock 01/05/2008 10:06:58
Due to Nu-Labour our police force has become a bunch of pen pushers, the concept of community policing in my home town is one or two days a week with long gaps for training or other reasons. In effect community policing is dead, they at best have knowledge of the petty criminals in our community but little else. As for being complacent, I read that MI5 was setting up a Scottish office and looking for new recruits recently, that does not sound like taking things for granted to me.
29

ddmc,

01/05/2008 10:17:43
#13's Right, security experts cranking up the rhetoric, looking for some new funding Prof ?

30

ddmc,

01/05/2008 10:35:03
well said #28 ,they can stick their F U D where the sun don't shine.

31

Prof,

01/05/2008 10:36:14
It would be interesting to read this expert's research bfeore 7/11 and the attacks in Spain, Bali and London. Did he confidently predict that militant Islam would result in such attacks?
Its not rocket science to see that if some Islamic teachers preach that it is gods will to kill non beleivers, such attacks will continue to happen. We need to hear more from the real Islam, which is actually a tolerant religion, and less from Islamic hardliners preaching hate.
32

sam the god,

01/05/2008 10:43:31
#34
i thought that was real islam?
33

tommy,

belfast uk 01/05/2008 11:03:39
duncan@28
Quote
I wish we had the capacity to hold sensible, rational conversations on this topic
&
First, identify any genuine, justifiable grievance and work to remove it - religiously inspired grievances do not count as genuine, but oppression such as that in Palestine does.
Unquote

Their can be no sensible rational conversations because the ignorance of islamic texts by the general population precludes it but then even the government thinks islam is a religion like Christianity,buddhism etc.,

and any oppression in palestine is due to their own actions-- you are foolish to believe that the palestinians want peace or that their arab neighbours want them to be peaceful-- they are being used by the islamic world as a stick to beat the ignorant in the west backed up by that human rights debacle --the un

If the arab/islamic world was even the least bit concerned about the welfare of those in palestine any aid/electric supply/fuel/food could be routed through egypt--- ask yourself why the egyptians don't allow it

if the palestinians put down their weapons there would be peace
if the Israelis put down their weapons they would be slaughtered
34

Nellie,

Liverpool 01/05/2008 11:05:52
Politics of fear makes a people compliant so the leaders no longer become representatives of the people but rulers of them. Think about it: Who scares us the most? The terrorists or the Government telling us we should be scared of the terrorists? There are several million people living in the UK - they can't kill us all, just a few. They can't break the UK economy, just break a few businesses. They can't over throw the Government, altho' they MIGHT (haven't even come close yet) some politicians. There is a greater risk of being killed by crossing the road! So, everyone of us should be quaking in our boots in case the Bogey Men come to get us? I think not! I think the terrorists have already won because the Government and media have done the work for them by making people feel terrified!!
35

Yane,

01/05/2008 11:09:15
#28 But I didn't think Scotland was targeted by the IRA.
36

tommy,

belfast uk 01/05/2008 11:14:48
duncan also forgot to say
Quote-In this country, until 9/11, we knew how to deal with this stuff. The IRA campaigns were met with "business as usual" because we knew that if we changed, they would have won.-Unquote

To compare the behaviour of the ira to islam is pure obfuscation and cannot be used as a justification for continued islamic violence
37

Guthrie,

Edinburgh 01/05/2008 11:16:44
I certainly don't want more cooperation between the judiciary and the government. As for the terrorists, there are too many things that could be done in this country to kill people and cause major economic damage, fortunately they are either too stupid to think of them, or are not as numerous as some people would like us to believe.
38

Duncan in Edinburgh,

01/05/2008 11:21:46
#36 While I understand what you are getting at, the issue is not what sort of religion Islam is. If we were getting into that arena I would have to suggest that Islam and Christianity, along with Judaism, share many similarities in terms not only of origins and dogma but also methods of control, whereas Buddhism, Taoism and others are largely personal and philosophical.

Nonetheless, we simply cannot afford to get into a "my sky god is better than yours" argument because sky gods simply serve to enable and justify divisions and mistrust.

I fear that your apparent hierarchy of good vs bad religions is what leads you to the entirely unreasonable implication of an Islamic politics, people and state. Some Islamists want that, but that does not make it either real or achievable.

What is most fascinating of all in your response is that you leapt to the conclusion that when I talked about oppression in Palestine I was referring to oppression by Jews against Muslims. Read it again. There is no solution is religious division, but where there is genuine oppression, and such occurs in all religious groups in Palestine, this is the root cause of terrorism, and this is what needs to be addressed.
39

Duncan in Edinburgh,

01/05/2008 11:35:22
#40 What a bizarre thing to say. I didn't use anything to justify continued "Islamic violence". In fact, I am entirely opposed to terrorist violence, and I am equally opposed to the over-simplification and misrepresentations which results in it being referred to as "Islamic violence".
40

Boab,

Glasgow 01/05/2008 11:57:38
Relieved at the amount of skepticism on this thread. HM government essentially allowed the London bombings to go ahead, either by massive incompetance or a cynical desire to allow its own citizens to get massacred in order to justify the Iraq misadventure.

Since then, Mohammed Atif Siddique got eight years simply for visiting the wrong websites. So, far from us all being complacent, I think the authorities have more than enough power.
41

cataibh,

Bo'ness 01/05/2008 12:24:15
Blair& Brown will will do anything to ensure a place at the top table and to keep the donkeys in place cause fear and alarm.
42

The Trossachs Hasher,

01/05/2008 13:07:05
Absolutely agree with no 25, crowds of drunken feral youths roaming the towns seems more of a clear and present danger to most of us than some other types of youths seeking martyrdom.

No chance of the police using their extended powers on them.
43

John PM,

Edinburgh 01/05/2008 13:27:43
The real threat is from BritGov. If we don't want foreign terrorists to attack us we shouldn't be interfering in their countries and propping up right wing military dictatorships.

The US war in Iraq was illegal under international law. The UK should have said they wouldn't go along with it without a second security council resultion which clearly authorised force.

As it is the UK and US have shown they have contempt for human rights. They have propped up a regime in Israel which regularly murders civilians.

If the US and UK are not popular worldwide they don't have to do much thinking to wonder why.

Bin Laden and Al Quaada are dangerous murderous loons but the US and UK have given them ample grievances with which they can justify their actions.

If the US and UK and EU (which is the most important and relevant body) supported human rights worldwide and supported the principle of self determination in all cases then we would have international law which actually means something and those who use the gun for unlawful means could be isolated. In actual fact the US and UK currently comes across as complete hypocrites who ignore the underlying causes while claiming they deserve unconditional support and undermining the human rights of everyone in THIS country.

A independent Scotland's foreign policy might not be much better but it certainly couldn't be any worse!
44

John Blackley,

Florida 01/05/2008 13:31:16
Well, Prof. Wilkinson has done his job - he's attracted a nice bit of free publicity for the conference on terrorism next week. (I wonder if any terrorists will be speaking?)

While I understand why Prof. Wilkinson thinks as he does, I don't agree with him. I don't think that wasting time on 'community relations' and 'dialogue' will either help or hurt any potential terrorist threat in Scotland.

What might help is good, old-fashioned undercover work by the intelligence(?) services and the police.

The 'terrorist threat' - if one truly exists in Scotland - exists and thrives below the surface of normal community activity (therefore 'community relations' are of no use whatsoever). Those party to any threat are secretive, committed and entirely closed to rational persuasion (which pretty-much invalidates 'dialogue').

To counter any threat, the Scottish people need agents within communities most likely to harbour terrorists. They need people who can pass information to law-enforcement agencies and who can gather that information by seeming sympathetic to 'the cause'. (Dare I say it, had the United States spent one tenth of the money on agents on the ground as they did on bombs in the air then our troubles in the Middle East might not be so great?)

By all means, chat away to the 'community leaders' and put out our own propaganda to the young but, if it is determined that Scotland presents an active target for terrorists (and I'm not-yet convinced), put your faith in spies.
45

Silence of the Yams,

01/05/2008 14:22:15
The religion in question is rotten to the core. Unless that is addressed, nothing is going to change.
46

tommy,

belfast uk 01/05/2008 14:36:09
duncan @ 42
quote
While I understand what you are getting at, the issue is not what sort of religion Islam is. If we were getting into that arena I would have to suggest that Islam and Christianity, along with Judaism, share many similarities in terms not only of origins and dogma but also methods of control, whereas Buddhism, Taoism and others are largely personal and philosophical.
Unquote

Once again Duncan,this is obfuscation,there is no religion in the world like islam.So the issue is precisely that-- what sort of religion islam is... islam is a political entity with the sole aim of world domination and subjugation of its peoples to their sharia law
They do not want a democracy and the sooner the powers that be wake up the better

VOTING IN ISLAM (emphasis added)
from http://tinyurl.com/63x5ke

I CONSIDER MUSLIM POLITICAL PARTICIPATION ESPECIALLY IN A NON MUSLIM COUNTRY,AS A FORM OF JIHAD
Looking at the situation of the Muslim community and their need to have their interests met, it becomes advisable for the Muslims to achieve this purpose through the available political system. Through voting, a man can bring to Parliament such candidates who sympathise with the Muslim cause
Shaykh Suhaib Hasan, Secretary, Islamic Sharia Council of Great Britain; Chairman, Masjid & Madrasah al-Tawhid, London; Graduate of Islamic University at Madinah]
--------------------------------------------------------
I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT DEMOCRACY IS ANTITHETICAL TO ISLAM
This participation most certainly includes voting for whichever party or candidate best serves the needs and interests of the UK and indeed world wide Muslim population. THIS DOES NOT MEAN APPROVAL OR ACCEPTANCE OF THE IDEAL OF SECULAR DEMOCRACY, BUT THE INTENTION IS TO USE THE MEANS AND AVENUES AVAILABLE TO BENEFIT MUSLIMS AND THE COMMUNITIES WE RESIDE IN.
Br Abdur Raheem Green, Dawah Administrator, Central Mosque, London]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
47

tommy,

belfast uk 01/05/2008 14:38:14
CONTINUED FROM 51


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In a situation where there is no worthy candidate (as in non-Muslim countries,iN A SITUATION WHERE THERE IS NO WORTHY CANDIDATE (AS IN NON MUSLIM COUNTRIES) where at least the ideologies and beliefs of the relevant parties are contrary to the teachings of Shariah), then the vote should be given to the one who is the better and more trust worthy then the other candidates.
…there is nothing wrong with Muslims casting their votes in favour of the less evil candidate.THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH MUSLIMS CASTING THEIR VOTES IN FAVOUR OF THE LESS EVIL CANDIDATE In any case, this is the matter of ijtihaad based on the principle of weighing up the pros and cons, what is in the interests of Islam and what is detrimental... No one should imagine that anyone who says that it is OK to vote is thereby expressing approval or support for kufr. ”IT IS DONE IN THE INTERESTS OF THE MUSLIMS NOT OUT OF LOVE FOR THE KUFR..."

Shaykh Muhammad Salih al-Munajjid, Supervisor, Islam QA.com; student of Shaykhs Bin Baz and Ibn Uthaymeen]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One should consider carefully who has been supporting their ISLAMIC RIGHTS most and is promising the most benefit for Muslims on the whole.
Imam Dr Abduljalil Sajid (Imam of Brighton Islamic Mission and Chair Muslim Council for Religious and Racial Harmony UK)
---------------------------------------------------
YOU CAN SEE WHERE ALL THIS IS HEADING
48

Duncan in Edinburgh,

01/05/2008 14:51:52
#51/52 For a start, it is deeply unhelpful to simply copy and paste propaganda from another website here. Let's have a rational conversation please. It would be quite simple for me to find equivalently unpleasant and iconoclastic quotations from Christian fundamentalists, and it would do as much good.

Religion is a problem in that it enables control, but religion is not the cause of terrorism. Religion needs to be fought against in all of its forms, but we need to separate the issues to understand and defeat them.

Now how about addressing the issue of oppression in Palestine, as an example of a root cause? It is almost impossible to solve, but it is surely better to try than to fight false wars against ideologies and religions?
49

MichScot,

USA 01/05/2008 15:28:18
#22

Their, there

#21 is right, and it's so sad that they won't live in peace forever, because the goal is global.

We should be using our goodwill and food and even just the kindness of Christianity as Christ set it forth and we would have friends. People who get a heifer or a well and help with farming methods will like us better that when we give them bombs, although they are also necessary at times. We are to turn our swords into plowshares and pruning hooks.

Remember, Islam is not just a religion--it's a lifestyle. Even how you brush your teeth is regulated.
50

tommy,

belfast uk 01/05/2008 15:31:38
To Duncan @42
Quote
What is most fascinating of all in your response is that you leapt to the conclusion that when I talked about oppression in Palestine I was referring to oppression by Jews against Muslims.
Unquote

Apologies Duncan-- I thought we were in for a spate of Israel bashing (automatic reaction)
while we are on the subject of "terrorists" and profiling
In kurdistan
Unlike refugee camps set up for some 100,000 Shia Muslims fleeing attacks from Sunnis, which are closely monitored by Kurdish security forces, Christians have been encouraged to live anywhere.
BECAUSE WE ARE NOT AFRAID THEY WILL BE TERRORISTS
(emphasis added)

said Deputy Prime Minister Omar
Fattah
so I think we can forget any comparison between islam and Christianity





51

Duncan in Edinburgh,

01/05/2008 15:42:23
#57 I appreciate that you have this things pretty deeply ingrained, but what we really need to do is forget any association between Islam and terrorism. The roots of terrorism are not religious. Suicide bombers in particular may justify their behaviour on religious grounds but their motivation, their anger and hate, comes from real life experiences, not a belief system.

For the terrorist, Islam is held up as a solution not only to concerns about committing terrorist acts (God's will is paramount) but also as an ultimate solution (global caliphate). But both of these things are merely justifications. Motivation comes from oppression, injustice and poverty both in material terms and in terms of opportunity and hope.

The more we focus on Islam as the problem the less likely we will be to solve the genuine problems which lie at the root of terrorism.
52

MichScot,

USA 01/05/2008 16:40:21
#26

Hear, hear!

#25

They are the product of secularization. After all, truth and morals are "relative".

#29

you can't thank God. You are an atheist.

#36

So true. I know and Israeli and some muslims. The Israeli wants peace. The Muslims were both taught that the Israelis are "apes and pigs". As you know, pigs are haram because they are on the list of ten filthy things, along with kaffir (non-believers), feces, urine, etc. Anything we touch is considered contaminated by the orthodox ones.
53

Duncan in Edinburgh,

01/05/2008 16:56:47
#58 I was going to respond in the same vein I already had to try to get through to you that this is not and should never be a "holy war", but then I noticed your response to #29 and I realised that on every imaginable level you just don't get it.
54

tommy,

belfast uk 01/05/2008 17:11:12
Quote
"I appreciate that you have this things pretty deeply ingrained, but what we really need to do is forget any association between Islam and terrorism. The roots of terrorism are not religious. Suicide bombers in particular may justify their behaviour on religious grounds but their motivation, their anger and hate, comes from real life experiences, not a belief system." UNQUOTE

Duncan I am sorry-but you seem to have lost the plot
The roots of terrorism are based in the koran and the ahadiths and not on anything you or I have done
They are the most coddled of people and the only way you will satisfy them is to admit their superiority be subdued and pay the Jizya
I have shown you quotations from very respected muslims and their opinion of you,but still you deny the truth
Sorry Duncan but everybody and their brother has integrated fairly satisfactorily into our culture and made a contribution to it with the exception of the followers of islam who are taught the kufr is haram
--- the multicultural policies of this country are a joke

Regarding palestine....If it were not for islam those that live in palestine would be civilised and prosperous-- I personally blame the UN & arafat






55

tommy,

belfast uk 01/05/2008 17:21:57
We need to be terror concious because islam is starting to effect the way we live and getting more bold day by day
On March the 28th this year at the UN the Universal Declaration of Human Rights Died
http://tinyurl.com/34h3w4


56

MichScot,

USA 01/05/2008 17:24:32
Duncan

I do understand. If you don't believe in God, that's your choice. I don't condemn you for it. It's just that if God doesn't exist, how can one thank Him?

It is so sad that people refuse to let others live in peace because they believe their opinion is the only one that counts. I don't care who does it, if it is the wrong response morally, it's still wrong. Christians are to present the Truth, not to force it. The same should hold for secularists, atheists, Buddhists, Jews, etc. Unfortunately, it is not presented like that in the Qur'an.

57

Duncan in Edinburgh,

01/05/2008 17:24:39
#60 For a start the idea that terrorism begins and ends with Islam is demonstrably ludicrous - terrorism has been used by a hundred different movements to try to further their aims. One of the most successful groups of terrorists were the Etzel, the Jewish terrorist organisation led by Menachem Begin, who were (justifiably as far as many people were concerned) fighting for the creation of a Jewish State and against British policy in Palestine. Their terrorism ended when their oppression ended.

You appear to be unable to see past Islam. You need to - we all need to - if we are going to actually solve these problems rather than engage in perpetual "war".
58

MichScot,

USA 01/05/2008 17:27:27
Duncan

I think we do agree on basic things, like theft, murder, lying, deception,etc. Most people know in their hearts the basics of morality. Parents need to reinforce these things in the minds of their children to help us get along.
59

Duncan in Edinburgh,

01/05/2008 17:29:13
#62 That was the point - it was quite evidently a silly joke, and yet you responded to it. Why?

I can show you Christians who believe that their opinion is the only one that counts and that it must be imposed on everyone else. I can also show you Muslims who think the opposite. Such is the danger of religious absolutes - it gives people false confidence and false expectation and leads to power abuses and fanaticism.

What you do not understand is that all religions are the same, and that no religion is itself terrorist. Religion is a useful tool for terrorists, no doubt, but terrorism stems from the real world, not the supernatural.
60

MichScot,

USA 01/05/2008 17:50:57
Duncan

I responded because I don't always catch things that are jokes. It's one of my flaws.

Yes, ANY ideology can be misused and the Muslims I know represent both ends of the spectrum--almost--not radical in action, just in thought he was brought up with. He presented Islam to me to bring me into the "fold" and it was why he came here, he said, to invite people to Islam.

The other one is very gentle and accepting. He was so surprised that we in the west are not all evil and we do want peace, and it made him realize that religions can coexist peacefully as far as we are concerned. Just don't try to take over! He liked that.

I also know Christians who push it, and they are learning that it causes more trouble and does little, if anything, to further a cause.

But true Christianity is the only faith in which God came to US to save us, and not we to go to Him and ingratiate ourselves through working our way into His good graces and try to earn our way to heaven. Our good works are "as filthy rags" and are done only out of gratitude for His gracious love to want to save us.

Incredible? Yes. Different from the rest? Definitely!

Has Christianity been misused by zealots? Yes,unfortunately.

But that is what Christianity is about (not the misuse part, but the part before it), and it is my choice. I respect your right to believe otherwise.

61

MichScot,

USAI 01/05/2008 17:53:30
It was nice chatting with you, Duncan. I have to go now. Bye.
62

John Blackley,

Florida 01/05/2008 18:08:18
While I take issue with the idea that "all religions are the same" (it's lazy and untrue) I'm more concerned with people who blame Islam for the world issue du jour.

There is no correlation between my interpretation of Islam and the actions of terrorists. Granted, some others claim to interpret Islam as justifying the actions of criminals but such actions have been carried out by apologists for crime for longer, even, than Islam has existed. Once again, blaming a benign, civilised religion for the actions of criminals - almost solely because those criminals corrupt the religion to their own ends - is lazy and ill-informed.
63

boudica,

Glasgow 01/05/2008 19:07:08
68 ,,,if that is so ..Then Why are the majority of Muslims round the World silent on the Likes of Darfur were the Janaweed ( Arab Muslims ) wiping out The Bhunta ( Descendants of African Slaves taken there by the Arab /Muslim slave traders and had the Muslim religion Forced on them )..the Silence is deafing ..I would advise you to learn about Taqiyya within Islam ...
64

,

01/05/2008 19:21:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
65

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 01/05/2008 20:36:21
I have often been extremely angry with acts perpetrated by governments and regimes against innocent people, including acts by my own government. However, I have never reacted by trying to harm people who were in no way responsible for such acts. As all journalists and many others will agree, in the final analysis the pen is indeed mightier than the sword, and people who are angry need to think about how they can channel that anger usefully to change the minds of others without harming or killing them. Commit a single terrorist act, and you make thousands, if not millions of people who previously had little interest, into fervent enemies of your cause. Make someone in a different culture understand your own point of view, and you have started to aid your cause. Hurting and/or killing civilians very rarely achieves a fraction of that which is achieved by a little kindness and empathy, if not sympathy.
66

John Blackley,

Florida 01/05/2008 20:46:07
#69 boudica, thank you for responding to my comment.

I'll confess, I can't say that the "majority of Muslims around the world" are silent on the issues you mention - any more than I could say the majority of christians around the world are silent on any other horrible crimes against humanity. So far, I don't think I've either met the majority of christians around the world nor hear of their views.

Thank you, however, for your advice on my learning needs. I appreciate your willingness to help enlighten me.

#70 The Black Douglas, thank you also.

Do you mean today? This week? In the past ten years? Ever?

I do hope you don't mean to imply that the answer is, "None. Ever."
67

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 01/05/2008 20:56:32
Reading postings, it is clear that there are three different threads: (1) Why people become terrorists and how we can prevent this. (2) How we should treat terrorists or would-be terrorists once we catch them. (3) How we can protect outselves given that terrorists exist.

(1) is highly complex. For one thing it is difficult to say where violent crime ends and terrorism starts. For another there is a vast array of possible reasons. This is why many expert sociologists and psychologists have been given a lot of money to conduct research into terrorism. If they can't deliver the goods, I certainly can't. (2) is up to the law of the land. Should there be a distinction between treasonable terrorism and interstate terrorism? Should state terrorism acquire a legal definition and be punished by internationally agreed means? (3) The best form of protection I know is to always place the well-being of people above mere philosophy and systems of belief. A little kindness goes a long, long way. Failing that bullet-proof vests, sawn-off shotguns, razorwire, and rottweilers are of some help.
68

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 01/05/2008 21:26:14
There have been many comments involving Islam and Muslims. It is to the great shame of "western" countries that over 13 centuries they have made little attempt to understand Islam. Muslims, on the other hand, generally know a great deal more about Judaism and Christianity. I am an adherent of no formal religion, yet I find Islam to be superior to Judaism and Christianity in many ways. Anyone who has studied Islam will find Christianity to be bizarre. E.g.: (1) In Islam all babies are born 100% innocent, there is no philosophy of original sin. (2) Only Allah/God has the power to forgive - there is no intercession through a pope, saint, or prophet. (3) Mohammed and Jesus/Yeshua were fallible men, not demi-gods. (4) Allah/God is responsible for natural disasters, and these are not to be interpreted as punishment - they are Allah's will and that's all we know. (5) Any discussion of the nature of Allah is idle chatter and frowned upon - it is accepted that the nature of Allah is unknown to us and always will be. (6) To study science is to study the work of Allah. For this reason Islam is pro-science, not anti-science. (7) It is often said that Islam is a religion of violence. This isn't true. In fact Islam was born at a critical stage in the transition from a tribal-rural culture in the Arabian Peninsula into a national-urban culture. While Islam itself was the driving force behind this change, which involved violence, it put an end to centuries-old vendettas between Arabian tribes, eventually uniting them in peace. This change had to occur in order to stop violence.
69

John Blackley,

Florida 01/05/2008 21:58:44
#80 The Black Douglas: You responded to my comment and, despite the lazy, attempted provocation of your claptrap about "liberal/marxist mantra" (whatever on earth that is), I'll respond to yours.

I am in no way trying to "insinuate" anything. I said - quite plainly - that criminals are using religion to their own ends.

Until you're prepared to answer questions (see comment #76) please stop addressing your questions and the rest of your nonsense to me.
70

whatisthis,

Edinburgh 01/05/2008 22:03:05
Well some posters 'get' the threat is ideological; tommy in belfast, boudica in glasgow; but poor old Duncan in Edinburgh thinks there are rational grounds for terrorism.
71

R. Slicker,

02/05/2008 00:10:43
#83,

The IRA and UDF claimed religion as justification for their cause.

Funnily enough, they both claimed the same God was on *their* side!
72

tommy,

belfast uk 02/05/2008 07:06:06
to 84

Bullocks
73

Spacepimp,

Edinburgh 02/05/2008 07:35:21
#83 You are indeed quite right

#84 There are sectarian bands such as the Wolfetones whose gigs are attended by narrow minded biggots citing how wonderful the IRA are and blame protestants for all their troubles. In reality Wolfetone was a protestant who stood up to fight for the belief that protestants, catholics and dissenters should be unified under one country....it's amazing how people have "justified" attrocities over many centuries saying, "it's ok, (G)god is on our side.......
74

tommy,

belfast uk 02/05/2008 08:18:01
Caora Dubh
Waow talk about rose coloured glasses

What absolute nonsense-- islam has murdered its way through history from the Indian holocaust (which made even the Jewish holocaust look insignificant) thru the armenian golgotha to the present day)--all at alla's instruction-- perhaps you would explain what abrogation is and how taqiyya is being used to show peaceful verses (as relevant) that have been overwritten by violent ones.
Explain sura 9 and demonstrate how peaceful islam is
Inform us how the Dhimmi is treated under islam
Explain how women who are raped are treated under islam
Explain how gays are treated under islam
the list is endless

All sanctioned by the koran and ahadith

I am sorry but I think you are a troll or a guardian reader
My advice would be for you to study islam and stop listening to faery stoties
75

tommy,

belfast uk 02/05/2008 08:23:35
to 84
A point that always seems to escape people is that they were not instructed to behave like this through their religious teachings
76

donald,

glasgow 02/05/2008 09:25:04
The Wolfe Tones do have a track about the United Irishmen: "The Protestant men".

The IRA did not target Scotland, nor Wales, recognising themas oppressed nations.

The only bombings in Scotland of a sectarian nature were perpetuated by Loyalists, who bombed three pubs in Glasgow; the Old Barns, Derry Traynor's and the Clelland Bar. The only persons hurt in the blasts happened to be Protestants.
77

donald,

glasgow 02/05/2008 09:30:06
perpetrated nor perpetuated.

Apologies to those "bigots" that noticed.
78

voltaire's janny,

02/05/2008 12:10:24
Oh good. An opportunity to repeat my world famous and heretofore anonymous ode to Smeato. Come away cowards ot terror; we'll set aboot ye


Twas doon by the inch o' Abbots
Oor Johnny walked one day
When he saw a sicht that troubled him
Far more than he could say

A fanatic muslim ba$tard
Wiz doin what he'd planned
And intae Glesca's departure hall
A Cherokee he'd rammed.

A big Glaswegian polis
Came forward tae assist
He thocht "a wumman driver"
Or at least someone half-pissed

But to his shock nae drunken Jock
Emerged to grasp his hand
But a flamin Arab loony
Frae Al Qaeda's band

The mad Islamist nut-case
Had set hissel' on fire

And swung oot at the polis
GBH his clear desire

Now that's no richt wur Johnny cried
And sallied tae the fray
A left hook and a heid butt
Required tae save the day.

Now listen up Bin Laden
Yir sort's nae wanted here
For imported English radicals
Us Scoatsman huv nae fear

Oor hame grown Glesca Asians
Will have nae bluidy truck
So tak yer worldwide jihad
An get yersel tae F***
79

Graeme M,

smithfield plains 04/05/2008 07:36:42
I think the Glasgow thing was a one-off saga, we Scots are loved too much in the world to worry about terrorists. More than I can say about 'other folk'. If you want a terrorist, you will get one. we used to be ourselves ha, tearing over the border to burn English churches, ha!...

 

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