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Taxpayers 'to take a 60% stake in Lloyds'

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Published Date: 06 March 2009
A DEAL that would see the government become the majority shareholder in the new Lloyds "superbank" is on the verge of being clinched, it was reported last night.
Talks between senior bank chiefs and Treasury officials may lead to an official Stock Exchange announcement as early as today.

Last night, opposition politicians said the move showed Lloyds' takeover of HBOS, which was "encouraged" by the government, was "a bad decision".

Under the proposed deal, the government would agree to underwrite about £250 billion in "toxic" assets held by Lloyds Banking Group, which was formed after the controversial takeover of HBOS by Lloyds.

Treasury sources say the deal would see the taxpayers' share in the bank rise from the current 43 per cent to 60 per cent, giving ministers a much greater say in how the new bank is run.

The bank would convert the costly preference shares held by the government – on which it is currently paying 12 per cent interest – into ordinary shares, which attract no interest.

A Treasury spokesman said: "Discussions are ongoing. A deal will be announced at the conclusion of those discussions."

But a spokesman for the Lloyds Banking Group last night insisted there was "no certainty" it would join in the government's asset protection scheme to underwrite its "toxic" assets.

The group's head of communications, Shane O'Riordain, said: "Our conversations with the Treasury are continuing about our potential participation in the asset protection scheme.

"This is a complex subject and there is a good deal of detail to be worked through. Our conversations have not yet concluded and there can be no certainty that we will participate in this scheme."

The Treasury has already struck a similar deal with Royal Bank of Scotland.

Lloyds has been forced to go to the government for further support because of the heavy losses run up by HBOS, which it took over to prevent its collapse.

If the deal goes through it will raise fresh questions about why the takeover of HBOS by Lloyds was allowed to go ahead.

The Scotsman spearheaded a campaign, backed by politicians and business leaders, questioning the wisdom of the deal.

A Conservative spokesman said: "If true, this is more evidence of the sheer depth and scale of Labour's recession, and more evidence that Brown and Darling's measures on the economy have simply not worked."

Vince Cable, the Liberal Democrats' Treasury spokesman, said: "This would effectively nationalise Lloyds and inevitably pose questions about how the government is going to be involved in running Lloyds.

"It also highlights what a bad decision it was for Lloyds to take over HBOS. The government did not prevent the takeover, in fact it encouraged it and we've ended up with two banks nationalised instead of just one."

Stewart Hosie, the SNP Treasury spokesman, said: "This confirms the Prime Minister is 'Culpability Brown'. Scotland was continually told, and so were the courts, that a merger with Lloyds was the only way to prevent HBOS being nationalised.

"Now we see the Lloyds Group – not only HBOS but Lloyds TSB, too – effectively falling into public ownership. Gordon Brown's claims to 'save the world' fall further apart every day."

Worries grow over huge risks

REPORTS that the government is taking on some £250 billion of troubled loans from Lloyds Banking Group adds to an increasingly disturbing picture of crisis in the financial sector, writes Bill Jamieson.

The key focus of attention today will be on the Lloyds chief executive, Eric Daniels, who was reported to be fighting to keep the government shareholding below 50 per cent.

A deal of this order would be a humiliation for Lloyds directors who negotiated the acquisition of HBOS last autumn. Lloyds shareholders will be deeply unsettled by this turn of events, but the growing ferocity of the recession may have left the bank with no option but to seek assistance.

Worries will now intensify on the scale to which the British government is acting as insurer to the banking system, it is taking on huge risks. If this turned out to be a global depression, with huge losses for banks, fiscal solvency might even come into question.




Page 1 of 1

 
1

Forward not Back,

06/03/2009 00:10:09
Well done Crash on ruining two banks, when nationalising one would have been far more effective.

As for Daniels, the "deal of the century" comment should come back to haunt him.
2

Tris,

06/03/2009 00:14:12
The words "booze up" and "brewery" are rushing to my mind.
3

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/03/2009 00:27:32


It will be a sad day for the Bank's when this day comes, but it is the only way forward to diminish the greed, that got out of hand, that put the Banks in this position today.

Make NO MISTAKE, it is more than they deserve.

4

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/03/2009 00:51:48
All this tinkering about trying to make a failed banking system work is a waste of time and more importantly money - your money.
5

,

06/03/2009 01:18:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
6

Jon Bon Jovi,

06/03/2009 01:39:40

does this mean all cuurent shareholders in HBOS keep the value of their shares?
7

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/03/2009 02:19:58

Canes Pugnaces ~8,

While on "Why"!

"Why" has the SNP, who are meant to be acting for Scotland, Done! Absolutely Nothing!?, not even a 'Press interview' on our Bank's?

But Taxing Chocolate, is more appropriate to the SNP!

But Taxing beyond believe our Scottish Whisky, is more appropriate to the SNP!

It goes on and on!

None the concern! our foundation's are crumbling!




8

SkeptikScot,

06/03/2009 02:47:01
My poor brain can't get my head round this, what's the plan . . . ?

The banks borrow money from the government to pay for insurance from the government. And the government will fund any payouts by printing money.

So who really pays?
9

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 06/03/2009 03:22:38
Destroying Scotland's banks has become an exceedingly expensive proposition.

£600 Billion and climbing.

Then again Gordon did say he would do anything to preserve his precious Union.

Apparently even bankrupt the UK if that's what it takes.
10

Forward not Back,

06/03/2009 04:09:53
#10 - The taxpayer, for at least the next century.
11

Letters From Muscat,

edinburgh 06/03/2009 05:32:12
HoThe one at Holy Corner pe the overdrfaft is safe? even the overdraft!
12

Letters From Muscat,

edinburgh 06/03/2009 05:39:34
Oh dear, the typing has gone to pot! here's a little bit of Doggerel to keep everyone amused....
It's called Sarkozy.

I did not meet Sarkozy
Somehow I wonder why?
He spent two days in Muscat
And that is not a lie.
He caused a traffic build - up,
'' who cares '' HE THOUGHT, '' not me! ''
I've got to leave this country,
& Get back to gay Paree.
My wife, she is so jolie,
I miss her , oh trulee,
Some Chanel at the Airport,
I hope it's Duty Free!''
13

Alan, New Zealand,

Leeds 06/03/2009 06:37:46
Ah, The Bank Directors and Managers Party, formerly known as New Labour, come riding to the rescue once again. Bonus's, large Pensions and wages are asssured.

Not such good luck for Van and car manufacturers, Postal workers, or any other kind of manual or skilled labour.

Bring on the next election.
14

Shape to Shoot,

06/03/2009 07:24:57
Yuck....effectively, we now all have a stake in rangers football club.

Tax payers' f.c.
15

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 06/03/2009 08:02:44
We should nationalise all banks, other financial institutions and public utilities - and do it quickly. As Alex Salmond rightly said, this crisis is the work of spivs, speculators and dodgy economists.
16

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 06/03/2009 08:17:33
£250 BILLION of toxic assets? And they want to underwrite it with OUR cash?

Puts the RBS debacle into presepctive then, doesn't it?

Oh for the love of God!
17

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

06/03/2009 08:19:53
If Lloyds is nationalized that opens up the possibility of the Bank of Scotland being returned to independent private ownership at some point-does it not? (although I assume that this wouldn't be Gordon Brown's intention.)
18

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 06/03/2009 08:20:47
RBNR

It would be safe in OUR hands. It's called collective responsiblity and nationhood.

As it happens, when he said that, WE ALL thought they were safe and secure and we all have to share the responsibility in terms of personal debt, reckless spending and credit indulgance.

Nobody, especially self proclaiming "economists" and "veggies who exercise", can sit on the fence with regards rebuilding, remodellign and re-shaping our wee nation.

I believe you haev soemthing to offer and I supprot some of those things.
19

BIG EYE,

Paisley 06/03/2009 09:05:23
The 1820 Radicals and Weavers marched under the banner "Scotland Free or a desert"

Thus far we are drowning in the sand how about trying the first part of the message?
20

Ugly George,

06/03/2009 09:08:10
24 Canes
"Haven't you been keeping up on the SNP's 6 point plan for economic recovery."

I, for one, am not aware of the six points. Can you tell me what they are?
21

Homo Sapiens,

Elstree 06/03/2009 09:09:11
Another major "coup" for Gordon Brown, he managed to nationalise the banking sector, almost single handedly. With Lloyds/HBOS he successfully got two birds with one stone. Taking one poor performing bank, and by merging it with a profitable and good bank, managing to bring both down, and rob the shareholders of their investments, by nationalising the "superbank". Ironically, this superbank, whether it survives or not will forever change the banking industry in this country by being "too big to fail" thus making it possible to continue poor performance and make bad loans, at eye watering interest rates (having more than 30% market share in the UK), and still be allowed to continue to operate, even if it squanders the money pumped into it by the taxpayers, who in essence become the victims of this "Rob Peter to Pay Paul" government strategy... what a train wreck... get rid of this shambolic government
22

Jacqueline Hyde ,

On the shelf 06/03/2009 09:11:36
It is becoming increasingly difficult to work out whether the government has taken majority ownership of the banks or whether the banks have taken majority ownership of the government.

If the former is true, the ongoing saga gets more and more surreal. If the latter is the case, then it all starts to make sense.

Why bother with elections if, however we vote, every taxpayer in the country is forced to work his/her naughty bits off for the foreseeable future just to protect the extravagant ambitions of self-centred, greedy, criminally negligent and pathologically untruthful bank directors and senior executives?
23

Dave From Barra,

06/03/2009 09:35:36
1
24

Stan Butler,

06/03/2009 09:36:35


The SNP claimed that Lloyds TSB had stolen HBOS at well bellow market value.

Do they wish to revise that opinion?

25

Richard Lionheart,

06/03/2009 09:36:40
Presumably Daniels will be made to go having caused the catastrophic failure of his Bank.

Given the furore over recent weeks about Sir Fred Goodwin’s pension we should expect to hear that Daniels has been sacked and forfeited his pension rights.

“There must be no reward for failure” GB

We shall wait and listen.

One question, if Fred Goodwin is not suitable to run FIUK why is Gordon Brown still Prime Minister? Is it because Gordon Brown hasn’t admitted his mistakes?
26

Mcsnagpile,

06/03/2009 09:45:34
60% investment, 0% voting rights,control --seems like a good deal for Lloyds,- not for the tax payer. HBOS has been a good cover for Lloyds and control of the banking market if it picks up again..
27

Independent Mind,

Buckie, Glasgow, Oxford 06/03/2009 09:50:21
10 SkeptikScot

"My poor brain can't get my head round this, what's the plan . . . ?

The banks borrow money from the government to pay for insurance from the government. And the government will fund any payouts by printing money.

So who really pays?"


Prudent people that saved while the times were good pay by having the value of the money they saved reduced. Welcome to Zimbabwe.
28

Go Gorgie Dalry,

06/03/2009 09:50:44
#21 Not sure what you mena by 'put it into perspective'.

The goverment has already underwritten RBS to the tune of £325billion.
29

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 06/03/2009 09:56:21
34

Yup and given the size of the RBS compared to Lloyds, it puts it into prespective.
30

Independent Mind,

Buckie, Glasgow, Oxford 06/03/2009 10:00:14
This is amazing... you couldn't make it up... unless you read history books and had the slightest understanding of economics. Then all this would have been completely predictable.

What did the PM do his PhD in again?!

RBS and HBOS are not solvent. So why bother saving them? They should have been allowed to fail with the government covering the publics savings. Any part of the banks that are worth anything would be bought up and allowed to continue as profitable companies. It would have been painful for a couple of years but would have been the fastest route to recovery.

This "plan" of saving the banks is madness. We are now in the situation where we are either going to have zombie banks proping up a zombie economy or the entire UK is going to go bust... and now that we have started printing money it is looking increasingly like the later. Going down this route leads us to a decade of pain.

Fun times ahead!
31

Lianachan,

Highlands 06/03/2009 10:20:55
60% owned by the taxpayer? I wonder what return I'll see on my investment.
32

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 06/03/2009 10:36:21
None Lianachan but they will lend you your money from which they took from the BoE at a nominal 0.5% interest then charge you 12% interest for the pleasure of, er, borrowing your own cash.
33

Dark Lochnagar,

Symington 06/03/2009 11:24:27
This whole banking saga is getting increasingly surreal. Why do I begin to feel it's a bad dream? Broon and Darling are so close to the wood they can't see the trees. Someone has to stand back and say "hang on a minute, what are we doing here". If the whole lot go belly up, will UK PLC be bankrupt?
34

Brian Hill,

06/03/2009 11:26:03
Has anyone else noticed the difference between the tone of Lloyds bail out and the RBS bailout?

The RBS bailout was apparently due to 'earth shattering Scottish greed and incompetence but Lloyd's seems to be due to a world recession over which it has no control or played no part.

When either bank is being discussed listen to the tone of commentators, particularly the BBC, very instructive.
35

15,

06/03/2009 12:33:17
Both HBOS and RBS fine Scottish banking institutions bailed out by the Government. Are the Scottish upset that HBOS was taken over by an English bank and RBS was bailed out by the English taxpayer. Frankly as an English taxpayer, I would have let them both go under, but the Scottish Prime Minister and Chancellor decided otherwise. You have a Scottish Government, let them take the responsibility for the problem of your banks.
36

Tartan Viking,

06/03/2009 12:48:03
#41. 15,06/03/2009 12:33:17

The bail out was from the British taxpayer - not the English taxpayer. British taxes are raised from four different countries, including Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. You need to stop thinking taxpayers money from Westminster is wholy English. It is an irritating habit you lot have. Sure - there may be a bigger amount of tax raised in England because it has a higher population but it is not solely English so please remember this. Countless billions flow into the Exchequer from Scottish Oil and whisky revenues and a host of other businesses all around the British Isles.

37

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 06/03/2009 14:09:52
Nationalise the lot of them.
38

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 06/03/2009 14:37:49
We don't want it thanks! we already got several so why would we need another one? In fact why would we want the others in the first place? The bank of England controls the cash, The other banks refuse to lend so the Bank of England produces more money to give to the banks who will not lend. Nobody has a job so they cant pay tax which means there is no money to buy banks. The money that is out there is virtually worthless and is mostly used to pay utility bills and bank charges and the wages, bonuses and pensions of the guys who caused the problems in the first place...DOH!!!
39

15,

06/03/2009 15:35:00
#42

It annoys the English, that we do not have a parliament or assemlby and that this UK government relies on Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish MPs to vote in laws, taxes and legislation, that only affect England and which seem to penalise us, while the rest of the UK is better off. Look at NHS prescriptions, the so-called 'fair NHS deal', this only seems fair to those who are outside England. No wonder that Berwick-upon-Tweed wants to join Scotland.

Do you agreed with Scottish MPs voting on English-only issues? I assume that you would not want English MPs voting on issues which only affect Scotland.
40

The Strategist,

06/03/2009 15:35:43
Actually, it truly annoys me that everyone keeps referring to HBOS and RBS as "Scottish Banks". The shareholding in these banks is or was mainly held by large City of London institutions and some foreign ones as well. They were regulated by the UK Treasury, the Bank of England and of course Brown's discredited FSA.

So they were Scottish only in name and I wish people would accept that.
41

Bemused and above it all,

06/03/2009 15:51:11
Personally I think this is great, it means that I now owe myself the loan, overdraft & credit card payments from Llyods!
I'm prepared to write it off as a bad debt as I'm marginally better with money than Broon & co!
Any chance they will let me?
42

Mikey,

06/03/2009 16:07:40
Just when are the Westmonster loving creeps on this board ever realise that the SNP cannot 'tax' whisky? They cannot tax chocolate! They cannot 'tax' anything!

The tax system is run from London, home of the unionist creeps! I really look forward to the day when you are all chased out of this country!
43

,

06/03/2009 16:17:52
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
44

The Strategist,

06/03/2009 16:26:22
We need one of these

www.kiwibank.co.nz then we hand over the "Scottish" banks to Westminster and the City.....
45

15,

06/03/2009 16:26:23
It seems to me that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland get the benefits of running certain areas of government, but England is being penalised by the Lothian Question.

Are the SNP in favour of an English parliment? If they are, can they not at least bring themselves to calling on Westminster to give England a parliament.

At least than we can mess up our own country, without the help of Scottish MPs.
46

Scotfree,

Erskine 06/03/2009 17:25:59
As I predicted at the time, bungling Brown's opportunistic assault on the Scottish banks, in support of the electoral fraud to hold on to Glenrothes and his job, has not resulted in the demise of nationalism in Scotland but the demise of the City of London as a major financial centre.
The Lloyds farce has come full circle and cost them dear for supporting Brown's intrigues. A consequence of this will bring down other banking shares, in particular Barclays will have to recapitalise, bringing it into Middle East control. In four short months Brown has destroyed four hundred years of banking tradition, yet he has the audacity to lecture others on finance!
47

ThePeter,

Glasgae 06/03/2009 18:00:41
As an employee, it means I work for the government

Reckon i stand much chance of "suing" to get a final salary pension like other government lackies do?


48

Tartan Viking,

06/03/2009 18:53:16
#45 15,06/03/2009 15:35:00

First of all, "It annoys the English, that we do not have a parliament or assemlby"

Sit down for a minute and think about this logically. The parliament in Westminster has 700 odd seats, of which the best part of 500 to 600 represent English constituancies (give or take). If a country has approx 6/7ths of the seats, then it is effectively their own Parliament, isn't it? So don't be ridiculous.

Secondly, "Look at NHS prescriptions, the so-called 'fair NHS deal', this only seems fair to those who are outside England". Also think about this logically. All the member states of the UK contribute to the 'tax pot' that is Westminster, and Scotland, Wales and NI get back their "allowance" - call it 'pocket money' if you like. Therefore, each country can do what it sees fit with this 'pocket money', so, if we decide to spend some on the NHS and give free prescriptions, then that is our choice, It means we cannot spend this money on something else. Whereas, you guys can. I'll bet there are things that are free in England but not elsewhere?

Lastly. Do I agree with Scottish MPs voting on English matters? Well it rather depends on what it is. A lot of legislation passed in Westminster actually affects Scotland, so, in this case, it is proper that we do have a say. If it is purely an English matter, then no I don't think we should have a say.

Clearer now?
49

knowbeforeyougo,

North West 06/03/2009 19:18:57
Oh dear. Does this paper ever have anything "constructive" to say about the Lloyds takeover of HBOS?

FACT: This stake has not yet even been confirmed, so once again pure speculation and scare mongering by this paper.

On what basis does this paper think HBOS would have been able to stand alone, without being purchased by LTSB? It would appear that this paper does not even give two hoots about the poor shareholders involved.

FACT: Nationalisation of HBOS would have wiped out all shares, leaving hundreds of thousands of people out of pocket, yet again.

The Northern Rock and the Bradford & Bingley circus's have left a very nasty taste in the ordinary persons mouth. And you were in favour of doing this again?

Sure, this bringing together of the banking groups a couple of years ago would have been unheard of, BUT something had to be done.
HBOS could not have survived. LTSB lent well, trotted along at it's own pace, but was "surviving" the recession. Lloyds wanted to grow, HBOS needed help, Lloyds opened it's big fat mouth, swallowed, and is getting indigestion as a result. Let them get on with it.

Bank of Scotland is still on the scottish high street, and ultimately will be re-branded onto Lloyds scottish outlets.

The UK is not the only place this sort of problem is being affected by, or do you not have televisions and newspapers north of the border?
50

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 06/03/2009 19:33:24
Nationalise the banks now. No more dodgy economists such as Fat Eck.
51

Tartan Viking,

06/03/2009 19:46:08
#55.
"On what basis does this paper think HBOS would have been able to stand alone, without being purchased by LTSB?".
HBOS would have survived if the bail out was given a few months ago to the HBOS group, Instead, this merger (really a take-over) was rushed through for political reasons - primarily to teach them Scotch a lesson. If the take over was not forced through then Lloyds would have been in a better position no doubt. But it happened nevertheless, and I recall that loads and loads of people from down south were very smug when this was taking place. You reap what you sow.

And your last point is a bit noxious - we invented televisions and newspapers my friend. Unfortunately, some newspapers masquerade as Scottish but have agendas that are not entirely true to their roots.
52

Silence of the Yams,

06/03/2009 21:01:25
We are wasting fortunes on these muppets. Let them go to the wall!! If people want to leave their money in Lloyds HBOS, more fool them!

 

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