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Cut crime by giving addicts hard drugs on prescription - police chief

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Published Date: 26 June 2007
Key quote
"If we could help addicts to get a fix on the state rather than from dealers, then it's possible we could stop them housebreaking and thieving." - JOHN VINE, TAYSIDE CHIEF CONSTABLE

Story in full ONE of Scotland's top police officers called yesterday for hard drugs such as heroin to be prescribed to addicts who have turned to crime to feed their habit.

John Vine, Tayside's Chief Constable, is believed to be the most senior officer in Scotland to back the proposal. He said: "We need to consider things that have perhaps been unpalatable in the past, such as the prescribing of class A drugs to chaotic users.

"If we could help addicts to get a fix on the state rather than from dealers, then it's possible we could stop them housebreaking and thieving."

He admitted enforcement had failed to make a dent in the illegal drugs trade or stem the rising tide of drug-related crime, despite seizures of hard narcotics in his area tripling in the past year.

But his radical suggestion was lambasted by experts, who claimed the scheme could tempt addicts into committing crimes just so they could get drugs.

Mr Vine was speaking after Tayside Police's annual report revealed a three-fold increase in seizures of hard drugs compared with the previous year. Drug- related deaths rose from 29 to 36.

Mr Vine said as much as 75 per cent of property crime was believed to be drug-related. But he insisted enforcement could not, by itself, deal with the rising use of hard drugs.

"If we do not reduce demand [for drugs], there will always be people coming in with more to supply," he said. "I am suggesting that we could have a pilot in my area of prescribing Class A substances to chaotic users".

Mr Vine - awarded a CBE in the Queen's birthday honours list - also called for special drugs courts to be established.

He warned: "We are not going to make progress unless certain things are taken out of the 'too difficult' box."

He will now seek meetings with ministers and health authorities in a bid to hammer out a long-term solution.

However, his call was condemned as "a counsel of despair" by

Professor Neil McKeganey, head of drug misuse research at Glasgow University, who said: "This would be an extremely risky initiative to develop...you do that, you're basically legalising heroin."

He said moves to prescribe heroin to the most chaotic users could increase crime, because addicts who had not come to the attention of the police could be tempted to commit offences to get free supplies of drugs. He went on: "We bear a responsibility for our addict population to provide treatments which enable them to get off drugs and start to make a contribution to society and to gain employment and education.

"This is not an answer to any of that - it's merely a proposal to reduce inconvenience to other people."

Prof McKeganey said Mr Vine's views were also a tacit admission that Scotland's huge and expensive methadone treatment programme had been a failure.

He said academic studies had shown the most effective way of treating addicts was by residential rehabilitation programmes. But little cash went on that kind of treatment, while more than £15 million was spent providing methadone to about a third of Scotland's 22,000 registered addicts.

Fergus Ewing, the community safety minister, appeared to distance himself from Mr Vine. He said: "There are currently no plans in Scotland to promote the medical prescribing of class A drugs for long-term addicts.

"However, I agree with John Vine that we must have a coherent policy that detains in prison the dangerous in society, but looks to treat the troubled - like drug addicts."

• Drug addicts will be able to identify online the best treatment available for them when Mr Ewing, launches Scotland's first national drugs directory today.

The site will enable drug users and their families to find treatment centres and see whether abstinence or methadone prescription are offered.

FOR

PROPONENTS of giving addicts drugs on the NHS argue the UK's attitude to drugs has been shaped by "moral panic" rather than rational analysis.

Some studies have argued government policy should focus on harm reduction and even called for the creating of state-run shooting galleries to ensure addicts can take drugs safely. Some experts argue that, if drug-taking does not harm others, criminal sanctions should not be applied and prison should be reserved for serious drug-related crimes.

It has also been claimed that Britain's drugs policy is flawed as politicians fear being labelled "soft on crime."

AGAINST

OPPONENTS of loosening Scotland's tight control of drugs insist that heroin on prescription will send out the wrong message to users.

Some experts said that the chance of free drugs could even increase crime instead of lowering it as addicts could use crime to get on prescription programmes. They say such schemes risk "turning over control of prescription to addicts" because they would have to be prescribed enough drugs to match their illegal usage.

Doctors also argue it would be difficult to restrict the scheme to heroin alone, leading to the spectre of cocaine and crack on the NHS.

Thoughtful, respected, but no stranger to controversy


JOHN VINE has proved to be one of Scotland's most thoughtful - and controversial - police officers since he was appointed Tayside's chief constable in November 2000.

He has taken on the likes of Jeremy Clarkson over speeding, lambasted sexism within the police and successfully led the policing operation at the Gleneagles G8 Summit in 2005.

However, the Yorkshireman caused uproar with a joke at an after-dinner speech last year about teenage suicide bombers that ended: "Kids blow up very quickly these days."

He later apologised for that remark, but has been willing to court controversy deliberately when he deemed it necessary.

Mr Vine, who was president of the Association of Chief Police Officers Scotland from 2003-4, accused motoring journalists like Clarkson of encouraging speeding by highlighting the "excitement associated with fast cars".

He also studied for an MSc degree in human resources at Abertay University in his spare time, studying the problems facing women police officers.

Mr Vine found a "glass ceiling" which made it difficult for talented female officers to reach the top of their profession. His finest hour came when the policing of the G8 Summit at Gleneagles in 2005 received worldwide praise. The relatively low level of violence was part of the reason Mr Vine was awarded a CBE in this year's Queen's birthday honours list.

Mr Vine, who is married with children, received the Queen's Police Medal in 2002 for distinguished police service.

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 26 June 2007 12:23 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Drugs policy , Heroin
 
1

Scullion,

Canada 26/06/2007 01:01:42

The words of a decorated policeman with years of experience on the front lines of the drug wars should carry at least as much weight as any academic. Let the man talk.

2

Auckland Arab2,

26/06/2007 01:10:14

75 per cent of property crime was believed to be drug-related - carried out by serial repeat offenders - who should be locked up for a very long time and then would not be able to repeat offend. Give them their fix from behind bars.

3

Princeton,

NJ 26/06/2007 01:17:44

This problem has reached such proportions that any suggestion for a solution deserves serious consideration. However, the fact that Afghanistan (policed by troops from the UK and other countries) is the world's biggest supplier of heroin surely demands our attention first. Have we agreed to turn a blind eye to these druglords who destroy our young people in exchange for cooperation in the fight against terrorism?

We also need to prevent the serious problem with drugs within our prisons. Someone needs to be holding prison authorities accountable for the widespread presence of drugs in a secured environment.

If we cannot fix those two problems which are in our control, what chance is there that giving free heroin to a selected few will solve the problem. This police officer has obviously given up hope that the inflow of drugs can be prevented. We should be asking the question why.

4

alan k,

26/06/2007 01:21:02

An interesting idea, but would need to be enforcement to prevent addicts from suddenly just trying to "quit" to get drugs from supplier or simply selling them on.

Would need to have someone inject the heroin into them everytime they need it.

5

Fly Fifer,

26/06/2007 02:04:51

If you made the drugs legal with an associated tax system, the problem would disappear and rehabilitation would fund itself. When you let the crimanal fraternity create the problem and then set the price for the continuing supply its ludicrous to complain about what it costs the taxpayer.

Lets get seriously sensible about the whole drug culture. As long as its illegal, you will NEVER slove the problem!

6

Dox,

26/06/2007 02:59:11

Further locking people into the slavery of drug addiction is not a good answer. Lock up the pushers for life and stop the flow of drugs into the country.

7

Alice S,

dunfermline 26/06/2007 03:23:24

Why not adopt the tried and tested Singapore method,and hang them.
Minimum cost to the tax payer and a virtually crime free environment.
I lived there for 15 years and believe me it works.

8

I'm going for a beer,

On my high horse 26/06/2007 03:33:09

#5 - that is some half baked logic you've got there.

Smokes and booze are legal and taxed and they fell more people than class A drugs. Making it free and legal isn't going to fix the problem. (I dont know what will, but surely not handouts)

9

scotsdoc,

Nanaimo BC Canada 26/06/2007 03:37:51

I was brought up in Edinburghin the 30's. Mother a doctor ,Father a policeman. (Me? an Doctor too) I've been around drugs all my life and am now 77.

As a kid people hooked on drugs had little difficulty getting them and were looked on with a sort of benevolent pity(many were WW1 amputees). My Dad used to raid opium dens in Leith where 'laskars', damned to work in the stoke holes of the commercial fleet, would try to get a few hours respite from toil if their ship was in over a week end. As kids, along with singing "Who's this coming down the Street? Mrs Simpsons..." ,we'd sing 'Honey have a sniff on me, Honey have a sniff on me..' (indeed that song got into the Canadian Army's WW11 Song Book)....There was virtually no crime associatedwith the drug scene..

Things changed in the 40's & 50's. The USA got it's knickers in a twist when NY Mayor La Guardia was involved with a herion distribution ring of the MAFIA. A Clamp down was organized. REEFER MADNESS was about to affect the working classes. Prohibition was the only answer it was thought!!

In Canada we had morphine in all our emergency packs in our RCAF aircraft. Horrors...There had been no problems but it had to be REMOVED IMMEDIATELY!! Things went steadily down hill in N.America and the UK too, under the delusion that total prohibition would control 'drug abuse'.

In N.America there is a PYRAMID of people who live off prohibition. Politicians who like money at election time, Judges who like to be busy, whole armies of lawyers and police with expensive prison guards backing them up and prisons filled to over capacity with Jail birds 80% of whom are in for 'drug related crime'. There must be millions of social workers feeding off the drug addicts too.

In Canada and in the UK there is petty crime by the addicts,mainly,muggings, break-in of houses and cars and shop lifting . Then there is MAJOR SUPPLY GANG TURF WARFARE with many killings all ov

10

Gordon Callan,

Shanghai 26/06/2007 03:43:55

I agree with this proposal because of the reasons given above.

However, there is another important point. Drug users' ill health costs our nation greatly when they get treated on the National Health. Smokers and drinkers tend to pay their way with taxes levied on their poison and so should drug users with prescription fees. Why shouldn't they contribute to this extra burden on the Health Service rather than to drug dealers' bank accounts.

Oh and by the way, if the supply of drugs was transfered from the street corner to the NHS, it would be far easier to stop children taking drugs, something I'm sure all parents would be happy with.

11

Guga II,

Rockall 26/06/2007 04:50:56

I have said, time and time again, that there are only two solutions to both the drug problem and the drug related crime problem.

The first solution is to execute every drug dealer, regardless of amounts being dealt, and lock up every drug user - in isolation so that cannot get drugs in gaol and have to go "cold turkey".

The second solution is to give all the drug users whatever variety of drugs they want, and as much as they want.. If need be, it could be a condition of getting the free drugs that they all live on some remote, unihabited island (not Rockall, before the usual wits suggest it).

The second solution might be easier to implement, as the first method would upset all the trendy lefties, tree huggers and social workers.

Either way, it would solve the crime problem, especially in the second case, and save the taxpayer a fortune.

12

Fly Fifer,

26/06/2007 05:12:53

Tut tut tut.

Drugs the single most important issue in society today. Drugs, a problem created by various governments of the day. If people want to take drugs and in the process end up killing themselves, please let them. But for goodness sake, at least make them legal so people can have some dignity about it.

Alcohol and Nicotine are the goverments drug and revenue raiser of choice. If you make two powerful harmful drugs available to the wider community then there is no reason for not doing so with all other drugs.

Wake up, smell the caffene and take a step in the right direction.........LEGALISE EVERYTHING!

13

nell from falkirk,

26/06/2007 05:34:44

Gosh, this is a good idea.

We already have two major legal drugs, alcohol and tobacco, which kill thousands every year, and destroy the lives o many, many more that aren't killed (yet) by them.
So let's legalise a whole lot more then we can destory even more lives.

So, what's the next logical step - we can have heroin free on the NHS, so can we also have our Buckfast? Alcopops anybody? Vodka clinics? Perhaps the District Nursing Service could deliver cairry-oots to those too drunk to get to the chemist?

Never thought I'd see the day that I agree with Alice & Dragonhead, but yes, it works in Singapore.

14

Ubi,

Edinburgh 26/06/2007 05:42:43

It would need courage from the government to embrace such a policy. A quality of which they have none. Our government has decided to tackle the drugs issue only with spin. Witness the massive increase in supply from Afghanistan this year, supposedly under the control of western forces.

15

Pilrig,

Livingston 26/06/2007 05:48:57

And on another page the docs say NHS rationing is a necessary evil - the above scheme no doubt will be ring-fenced from rationing. Excuse my cynicism again.

16

Graeme,

Guangzhou 26/06/2007 05:50:18

#7, #10 & #14. True it seems to work in Singapore but there are many other factors as well. Indonesia and China have the same policy with little effect. Especially China. Singapore may be squeaky clean (on the surface) but when a 'major' world event of some 'magnitude' is reported in page four of the Straights Times and on the front page it screams the headline "Goh Chok Tong opens bird park in Jurang", "another first for Singapore", you suddenly realise that not all is well!

17

Graeme,

Guangzhou 26/06/2007 05:56:30

woops... Straits Times!!

18

Fly Fifer,

26/06/2007 05:59:30

#17, Here Here.

People are forgetting that Singapore is not a democracy and freedom of speech is not encouraged. It might look clean on the surface but its underbelly is maggot ridden.

Legalise it all, tax it all, let it be. Here have a toke of this joint!

19

eric,

26/06/2007 06:03:04

Why not .everything else has failed.or open up 2 small unihabited islands One for as many free drigs as you can get down your neck and one island with all the help they need to quit.Anything that stops the drug dealers making money from peoples a good idea,Drugs destroys Families.

20

eric,

26/06/2007 06:13:35

Might as well .Everything else has failed,or 2 unihabited islands .One for Their prescribed free heroin or crack,and other island for all the Pro help they need to get off drugs .

21

John M,

Melbourne, Australia 26/06/2007 06:15:56

The proposed scheme works fine in Switzerland.

22

AM4,

Larne 26/06/2007 06:16:11

Cleaning up Addicts is one thing. Drug addicts are just the tip of the iceberg

'Recreational' drugs use is of epedemic proportions. Who's going to pay for the 'e', coke and cannabis consumerd by the 'party animals'.
This is where th real money is.

This is a sick society that needs to get 'out its face'.

Oh the glamour and the risk of it all!

23

Paul Voltaire,

26/06/2007 06:16:35

Just say "N0"
It worked on Grange Hill.

24

nell from falkirk,

26/06/2007 06:17:33

#20 nobody disputes that drugs destroy families, eric, but then so do alcohol and tobacco.

Alcohol is legal and freely available here in Scotland (and how), and what is the result?
Is the consumption reducing year on year? No, quite the reverse.
Has it stopped youngsters drinking? No, take a look at any High Street on a Friday and Saturday.
Has it reduced alcohol-related crime? No.

So how can anybody then claim that legalising yet another drug or drugs, (which this suggestion effectively does) and even going so far as providing them free is going to reduce drug addiction?

25

Boy Wonder,

26/06/2007 06:29:55

How to get rid of drugs.

Can't be done really. The genie is out of the bottle and it ain't going back in.

I m with those who say a little legalisation is the way forward. If you control the flow of the problem, then you control the end-users. And maybe some rebranding would help? Legalise what the junkies use and call it .... say .... "Zammo" .... (and why not!) and hold the using in a purpose built community building, where they can get ther hit under controlled conditions?

Could work. It's surely better than them roaming the streets.

26

eric,

Lothian 26/06/2007 06:57:15

25 All respect But groups of youths who cant handle a drink on frid/sat nights fighting each other in town centres doesnt scare me.As alchoholics dont roll little old ladies or house break to get their next drink.

27

Eric,,The Viking,, (AKA,,/,,Trojan )),

26/06/2007 07:03:47

Singapore through rose tinted glasses.

I was in Singapore 6 years ago for for 8 months.

Drugs ARE available, and just try walking down Orchard Road with your wallet hanging out.... wont be there for long !

Crime free utopia.... not !

28

Media 1,

cape town and stockbridge 26/06/2007 07:04:43

If the addicts can attain drugs for free on a legal basis then it reduces the chance of crime...Its a no brainer

29

The Strategist,

26/06/2007 07:10:43

I could support this proposal if we added cynanide to the prescription.

30

Ed_Izmir,

Turkey 26/06/2007 07:18:54

I would like a bigger faster car.....if I spend the next 12 months continually stealing one....will I be given one so as to curb my habit?

Little Scotland.

31

Cadgers,

Perth 26/06/2007 07:19:34

Legalise them, stick vat/tax on them and set the vatman/taxman loose.
I would love to see the headline "Drug baron jailed for tax evasion".

32

Stephen101,

Prohibition didn't/doesn't work 26/06/2007 07:20:25

Prohibition does not work as we all know. What it does though is create gangsterism and corruption.

Problems from drug use are totally insignificant compared from the problems caused by the legal ones - alcohol and tobacco.

Get them legal, tax them, and use the money raised to help people with a REAL drug problem, and especially those with alcohol and tobacco addictions.

Do we have a parliament with the courage? I think we do NOW! Come on Alec - show em that we are a country of grown ups.

33

Pilrig,

Livingston 26/06/2007 07:21:15

Media 29 - 'addicts can attain drugs on a free and legal basis.....'

Meanwhile Alzheimer's sufferers and the like can get to the back of the queue.

34

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

Scotland 26/06/2007 07:22:59

As a former Dundonian, I would say theyre police chief is on drugs himself!

We could give house breakers free oportunities to break and enter as well, surely that would lower the crime rate!

Numptie, he could possibly be related to Jack McConnell.

35

Billy,

Germany 26/06/2007 07:29:39

I agree with those who say the war on drugs cannot be won. We have to live with these substances in our society, just as we have with tobacco and alcohol. Legalise it for sale and consumption to registered addicts. The drug should be taken there and then, under medical supervision. We are talking now about lab produced heroin, uncut and as safe as is possible. Use the tax revenues to research a drug that will wean them off the heroin.

Any addicts signing up for this program would have to agree to sterilisation, under no circumstances can we condone a baby born screaming with addiction associated pain.

36

Senga Jean,

Scotland 26/06/2007 07:30:49

Prohibition in the USA made organised crime a success.Have a look at what #9 is saying. Makes a lot of sense. You would need some consensus in the West and that may be difficult due to the "denial" junkies in the USA....the Pyramid that #9 scotsdoc refers to.

37

Alf K.,

26/06/2007 07:31:30

First trying to make money by taxing drugs won`t work as there will be dealers bringing it in to sell tax free as there is with cigarettes and alcohol.
Second point many of the larger supplier families are known and regularly pointed out in the press why can`t customs and excise prove their capital has not been legally obtained. Are the criminals cleverer than the police and C&E perhaps we should be paying them to solve the problem. Finally how can such huge amounts be imported into this country that the price of heroin has actually dropped.

38

Taxi For McLetchie !,

Helensburgh 26/06/2007 07:40:09

Brave Mr Vine ; he'll be villified by the Daily Mail of course and in certain sections of the Murdoch press. But he'll know he's on the right track. Meanwhile , let's punish the pernicious pushers and dirty dealers by impounding ALL their funds , their homes, their cars , their golf clubs. They have no place in our society whatsoever. We can help their families , but only if those families agree to formally "divorce" themselves from the wrongdoer in question. It really is time to lock up and throw away the key. The thousands of victims , dazed through drugs or burgled as they sleep in their beds, deserve and demand nothing less.

39

decent one,

26/06/2007 07:42:56

Heroin on prescription would be a disaster. However, 'shooting galleries' where the drug user is seen to inject the drug is a very good idea. Crime would fall as users no longer need to commit crime to feed their habit.

Class A drugs such as heroin should not be legalised. This would allow dealers to ply their trade with no consequences. Dealers should be dealt with much more harshly.

What hasn't been considered here is the link between drugs and the Taleban. If drugs were available in shooting galleries then the demand for opium would fall and the Taleban would earn less money. This would obviously be more successful if other EU countries followed on.

40

Taking a Bigot's Money,

Dundee 26/06/2007 07:43:16

I do not believe that prescribing hard drugs is the answer - it is not just the associated crime that is the problem - some people should try watching a loved one throw their life down the toilet - it is not a pretty sight.

Moreover, by prescribing Methadone, the state is already acting as a drug-dealer. In my opinion a lot more work needs to be done in the area of rehab. Unfortunately that costs money - something most governmentts are not prepared to spend.

41

Taking a Bigot's Money,

Dundee 26/06/2007 07:45:12

I'm not surprised John Vine has come out with this nonsense - Tayside Police just don't want to deal with the associated problems of drugs - seems to me he just wants to wash his hands of the problem.

42

The Strategist,

26/06/2007 07:52:11

Now if we could get them all in one place at the same time to pick up their prescriptions we could stick them all on a Calmac ferry and ship them to Gruinard.... Job done..

43

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

Scotland 26/06/2007 07:54:03

Has anyone else noticed how apparently lazy the police are becoming?

I moved to Aberdeen and within the first week my house was broken into. We went through the usual rigmarole of reporting etc. etc. to no avail the villian was never caught.........

Two weeks ago I was caught 15 metres from the front door not wearing a seatbelt....!!!.... I was fined £30 to pay for the patrol cars petrol for the day......(What are they patrolling)

What do they do all day? They cant find a criminal but they can catch you not wearing a seatbelt 15 metres from your front door! If they were as vigilant at catching thieves and addicts we would be living in a safer environment.

But I guess I was an easy target! and an opportunity to pay for their incompetence, look at the young guy in the Jag lets get some money!!

I think the police force needs to start taking performance enhancing drugs, cause god knows they need it!

44

Stevie G,

Darlington 26/06/2007 07:54:58

43 Taking a bigots, etc

Apart from the health issues, the main egffect of drug abuse is crime required to feed the habit. By prescibing drugs this enables te user to stop their criminal acts, enable social services to provide support to the user and family and most importantly stop supprting the drug organisation.

I do agree with tou that it needs to be a structured approach supported bt the Government across the UK

45

Keke,

Aberdeenshire 26/06/2007 07:55:30

At a time when the NHS is refusing to pay for drugs for genuine cases, who's gonna pay for this .... or are we once again rewriting the rules for the parasites.

46

Scotty Cameron,

Edinburgh 26/06/2007 07:58:52

Free Prescriptions for Junkies! And what about the honest taxpayers with chronic conditions who still have to pay for their prescriptions? How unfair would that be...?

47

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 26/06/2007 08:00:27

Apparently 90% of the world's heroin supply comes from Afghanistan. The farmers there are poor and attempts to destroy their crops only drives them into the arms of the Taliban. Why don't the governments of the West buy the drugs at source (cost price), cut out the middle men and dealers and supply the stuff direct to those stupid enough to want to take it?

48

decent one,

26/06/2007 08:03:34

Methadone programmes don't work. They merely provide the addict with time to get their next fix. Methadone is just as addictive as heroin and the long term effects similar.

49

morris,

Edinburgh 26/06/2007 08:03:43

We could stick them on St Kilda.
I guarantee they will find getting off drugs far easier than getting off St Kilda!

Seriously though,feeding their habit can never be the answer.Locking them up is the only answer which guarantees the law abiding citizen is not inconvenienced by them.

I personally have no sympathy whatsoever because I have seen the depths to which they are prepared to go to feed their habit. Most of them(but not all) were wasters before they took drugs!

They have no regard for anybody or anything.
As far as Im concerned they opted out of society and thats where they should stay.
I know some will be horrified by my attitude,I suggest you try living next to them You will soon change your mind trust me!

50

Gay Gordon,

26/06/2007 08:08:36

Great idea. Who's picking up the tab for this? Oh, us tax payers yet again.

51

AKH,

Eskbank 26/06/2007 08:08:55

Zero tolerance is the only way forward.
Boot camp approach to deal with all drug users who are unable to kick the habit on their own.
Dealers should lose all their material wealth on first conviction and a long jail sentence on any further drug conviction.

52

Gay Gordon,

26/06/2007 08:14:12

People with asthma and other medical conditions pay through the nose for their medication.

Drug users get all the help they can get, free methadone in prisons etc. However, in Thailand you're swinging if you take drugs.

#51

They are the most manipulative people around. They ask you for money, and when you refuse, they say "fine, just looks like I'm gonna have to rob some poor grannie for it then." They try and make you feel guilty. It's when you hear this, I tend to agree with your comments.

What next for this left wing, lentil burger eating, liberal country? Bringing in orphans from abroad to satisfy paedophiles habit? (another species that should be swinging) The mind boggles.

53

Stephen101,

Who is paying? 26/06/2007 08:20:12

Gay Gordon (52). Who is paying for the drug business now? Cost of policing it? Petty crime. Organised crime. Corruption. Slamming the users up in jail? You.

I can assure you stopping prohibition would be MUCH cheaper.

And as for Morris (lock em up is the answer). Dearie me, what world are you in Morris if you think that is helping anyone or achieving anything. 'Opted out of society' you say. What % of the population have used illegal drugs? Go and find out.

It is astounding the number of postings here which want to attack Vine, and so few wanting to discuss the subject.

54

Gay Gordon,

26/06/2007 08:21:27

Just proves what's wrong with this country.

Here we're talking about giving out free treatment for junky scumbags, and the very next page of this newspaper, it tells us that the NHS are rationing their treatment.

55

James.com,

Clifton 26/06/2007 08:21:53

More State Dependency!

56

Stephen101,

You gotta join them 26/06/2007 08:22:22

I thunk theze drug adicks should have their goolayz cut of.

It seems a prerequisite of such views that you can't spell. Hope I am making some of you feel at home here.

57

The Man Who Knows,

Republic of Perth 26/06/2007 08:25:45

It's time to admit that society has lost the war against drugs. This idea deserves serious consideration; but what would happen to all the police officers who would no longer be needed?

58

The Man Who Knows,

Republic of Perth 26/06/2007 08:27:50

53

Fair enough AKH but who's gonna pay for the boot camps and the prisons?

59

Gay Gordon,

26/06/2007 08:28:54

Why desn't the scotsman show a true to life picture.

They should show a real, scarred junkie covered in boils from years of addiction, malnourished etc.

Rather than some tattooed hunky model. Christ!

We've got enough addicts. We don't need to glamourise it do we?

60

The Man Who Knows,

Republic of Perth 26/06/2007 08:29:53

51

Fair enough Morris but why St Kilda (which, after all, is a World Heritage Site)? Why not Edinburgh (and particularly your part of Edinburgh)?

61

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

Scotland 26/06/2007 08:33:30

Wish I was John Vines Boss it would go something like this.

What are you saying to the press?
Do I have to tell you your job?
Get of your fat lazy arse and do your job, cause if you dont do your job, I'll kick your fat lazy arse all the way from this office to your front door!

Your incompetent ill advised and a complete embarrasment, now get the f&*K out of this office. and that goes for your team as well, in the words of Alan Sugar youll be fired!

62

GrahamL,

26/06/2007 08:35:54

The important questions are of course:
1) Would Heroin pass the NICE approval process?
2) Where would it come from, we've been told a hundred times that drugs are grown by very bad people, surely our government wouldn't be planning on getting them from there...?

63

Homo Sapiens,

26/06/2007 08:39:23

What a mind boggling idea, especially coming from a law enforcement officer. Such an idea is not only an admission of failure by those charged with dealing with the problem, but also dangerous as it has appeal for the masses.

The experience we alreaduy have with government controlled distribution of toxic substances is not good. Alcohol and Tobacco use has increased under "Government controlled distribution". Both the government and the manufacturers and distributors earn too much money from the additcions of smokers and alcoholics, whose health and lives are ruined. Do we really want a drug addicted society, with its illness, unproductive members, mental illness explosion (we are ill equipped to deal with the tip of the iceberg of the mentally ill already struggling to survive in this country)... This is such nonesense that the man who mooted this idea should be fired!

If this is the proposed "cure" to crime, then why don't we provide children to paedophiles, willing victims to murderers, and free household goods to burglars...

The real solution is in a healthier more connected society. A society where children are CARED for by BOTH their parents, and not pushed into child care centers as babies or infants. A society that does not marginalises and ridicules men and fathers, and removes them from the lives of their children after divorce. We need a society, where School REINFORCES basic values that children absorb at home. A society that does not accept drug addicts, and does not look the other way, but provides them with the medical psychiatric and psychological treatment needed, without regards to budgets. If this is indeed a priority provide the resources! In addition to medical and psychaitric treatment provide emotional support in the family and in the community, give drug addicts back their self-esteem, and the hope for a better drug-free future. Keep policing a priority. Destroy the sources of the drugs, g

64

Angus Ogg,

Leaving On A Ferry 26/06/2007 08:45:57

#9 Scotsdoc, Nanaimo BC, Canada,

Well said Doctor,

As a former police officer, I agree wholeheartedly with what you have said.

The old saying: "If it ain't broke don't fix it" applies in reverse here.

Whatever else, the current government/police/legal/medical way of addressing drugs is certainlt NOT working. It needs fixing.

The Chief Constable has a point.

Certainly alcohol prohibition in the 1930's throughout America didn't work, and provides a reasonable foundation to study the prohibition-v-legal management of the issue. It is a misnomer to say "legalisation" as this can imply a free for all. That is certainly not what those making a careful and forensic argument are saying.

What is needed is some form of proper management of the drug problem.

The current state of drug lawlessness in the UK isn't working and needs fixing.

65

Angus Ogg,

Leaving On A Ferry 26/06/2007 08:49:37

#56 You say "junkie scumbags". Yes a lot of drug addicts are scumbags.

But what about those for example I have arrested for drug offences that have come from "good" family backgrounds right across the social spectrum.

It is a bit of a chicken and egg argument. I would contend that the current way drug abuse is managed, is part of the reason drug addicts turn into scumbags.

Let me reverse the question:

What would you do to fix the current drug mess? For you must surely agree the current system isn't working?

66

Falsyde,

HIGHLAND SEP 26/06/2007 08:50:05

At last! Someone talking sense rather than PC drivel.

67

wayne bijlyeerheid,

26/06/2007 08:51:54

Heroin on prescription was available up until the middle 1970's or so for registered addicts and there weren't that many problems.
I have no objection to this being reintroduced except that I don't see why the taxpayer should subsidise someone else's lifestyle choice so I would make them pay for their prescription and it would not be available at the £10 reduced charge.
After all, alcoholics who won't work don't fet subsidised cheap drink .
In addition they would have to undergo medically supervised withdrawal.

68

Angus Ogg,

Leaving On A Ferry 26/06/2007 08:52:29

#64 With all due respect, you are not the Chief Constables direct boss and it is not in your gift to tell him to get out of his office.

Do you have any professional experience of drug addicts?

For example are you a doctor, ambulance medic, police officer, prison officer, or householder that has been mugged or had their house broken into?

69

Taking a Bigot's Money,

Dundee 26/06/2007 08:55:32

#51 Morris - I know you were joking when you said St Kilda but actually that is not as daft as it sounds.

Some of the best rehab projects are those in the middle of nowhere where the individuals have complete freedom but have absolutely no access to drugs whatsoever.

70

The Man Who Knows,

Republic of Perth 26/06/2007 08:57:33

67/68

Angus, I agree. Would it be possible to run a pilot project in a defined area and measure (a) level of crime before the pilot and (b) level of crime after the pilot? Combine these with relevant health measures, involve the local community to obtain their views on how their lives have been affected, and we may just come up with a positive option for the future.

71

decent one,

26/06/2007 08:59:24

No66
What you are saying is just stupid. Paedophiles, murderers etc seriously harm people. Drug addicts if given free drugs (only in shooting galleries) would actually cause LESS harm to the general public.
Why would everybody else's lives be hell ?

72

The Man Who Knows,

Republic of Perth 26/06/2007 08:59:26

72

Dundee, see 62 above. Would you like them accommodated in Dundee?

73

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

Scotland 26/06/2007 09:00:23

#71

Please refer to post No. 45.

Wish I was, all that will happen is that they will take the free drugs and sell them!

74

Angus Ogg,

Leaving On A Ferry 26/06/2007 09:01:58

#70,

You say:

"After all, alcoholics who won't work don't get subsidised cheap drink"

Actualy they do. The DSS provide a top up DSS payment for registered alcoholics.

75

Angus Ogg,

Leaving On A Ferry 26/06/2007 09:06:37

#76 Scott 'Ola' Foam,

Point taken. I agree wholeheartedly with your post #45, and yes, absolutely there are too many lazy police about, but that is a whole other debate for another day.

My concern is that, from bitter experience, the current drugs mess needs some better answers than we have. Chief Constable Vine is at least putting his head above the parapet, and willing to receive buckets of abuse and criticism for making a debate on drugs.

76

Ceinwyn,

Stirling 26/06/2007 09:07:28

I'm all for supplying drug addicts with heroin, but only on the condition that they take their year's supply worth in one go.

77

Angus Ogg,

Leaving On A Ferry 26/06/2007 09:08:34

#73 Good Point.

Maybe worth dropping the Chief Constable a note.

Though I am pretty sure there will be a Chief Inspector taking on board debates and public opinion on boards such as this.

78

Mrs Lorry Driver,

Glasgow 26/06/2007 09:09:25

People do not choose to be ill, but they can choose whether to take drugs. The fact that these drugs become addictive leads these people to adopt a lifestyle which does not support their habits and they find they have to commit crimes to feed the habit. I object to these people, who mostly through their own CHOICE, became addicts, being allowed FREE drugs when people who are ill through no fault of their own have to pay prescription charges. We need to look at the SOURCE of the problem - and stop the drug culture. Treat the SOURCE and avoid the consequences. Yet again, this politically correct society is forgetting who the REAL victims are - the really sick people who need to pay for their medication to overcome their health problems. Let's not pander to those who have self-inflicted problems, who chose to become drug-reliant in the first place.

79

Here Today HBOS Tomorrow,

26/06/2007 09:09:40

This man knows what he is talking about, and his proposal should be considered. Even if the idea is found to be unworkable he deserves credit for atleast suggesting a new way out of the problem, rather than the usual tabloid approach of locking more people up, which costs us a fortune and often does little to solve the problem.

80

Senga Jean,

Scotland 26/06/2007 09:12:37

Any solution requires to be applied over all Western countries. Its not the fight against communism or terrorism; its a fight to save our future generations. No doubt some will say we won the fight against communism but it was the rot within that brought it down. Organised crime can also be helped to self destruct by not feeding their habit( of using up lives for money). Legalisation coupled with good rehab is the only realistic solution.

81

jennie,

inverness 26/06/2007 09:15:29

#9 - brilliantly put. I agree wholeheartedly.
The current situation in which lethal drugs (tobacco kills around 300,000 people annually in the UK, alcohol around 30,000) are on sale and advertised openly while relatively non-lethal drugs (even with the problems of uncertain dosage, death from illegal drugs in the UK runs at under 3,000 a year) is insane and illogical.
Prohibition in the USA showed the impossibility of controlling drugs, in that case alcohol, by criminalising them. All that happened was the criminals waxed fat. Legalise all drugs now in the UK and cut the rug from under the criminals feet. The IRA funded themselves by turning Dublin into the heroin capital of Europe and to stop them all we ever had to do was legalise drugs - I wonder why nobody ever thought of that? or if they did, why didn't they do it? Has the Mafia, and other criminal fraternities, sunk its hooks too deeply into the system, or is it that we actually like having terrorists to fight because it justifies whittling away at democratic freedoms?
Good grief, the sun is shining outside - got to go and enjoy the rare experience...

82

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

Scotland 26/06/2007 09:16:42

#78

Technology is the key.......

All drug addicts and the underground selling of illegal substances that are caught are chipped, so we can track there movements, allowing us at any opportunity to investigate their activities.

Pure and simple.... You want freedom stop your shit!

Dont understand the problem really!

83

oder,

Scotland 26/06/2007 09:26:02

kill the habit at source, suppliers hang, or if the lefties prefer life imprisonment no parole for any reason under any circumstances, drug addicit to be taken in care and forced to go cold turkey the cost might be high but that would cost less than anew state benefit that would only continue to grow.

84

Gay Gordon,

26/06/2007 09:27:12

In alcoholics, a chip of some kind can be placed inside the stomach, and when alcohol in taken it causes the individual to vomit, soemtimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, eg, George Best.

Can't we plant chips inside users just before they're released from prison and if they use heroin, they're body begins convulsing until they passs out. Eventually, common sense will prevail.

85

Ricco,

26/06/2007 09:29:39

Briefly:

the 'free treatment for addicts' idea is misleading - it is treatment to reduce the harm done to society by drug use.

It would also save the health service money by reducing the ill-health caused by incidental Hepatitis infection and impurities in the injected fluid.

86

morris,

Edinburgh 26/06/2007 09:32:45

55
I have personally known of an old age pensioner beaten up for her pension ,and I have had a friend commit suicide ,because of her druggie neighbours and the fear they instilled in her.
When they are responsible for the taking of a human life I have no respect left,and you dont even begin to know whats involved!
I once took the view that you do. Never again!

What is the world coming to? Their senses thats what!

87

Super Mario Tram,

26/06/2007 09:32:48

Life is chaos and competition. Utopias don't and have never existed.

Germany and Switzerland are obvious examples of containment of Hard Drug problems through "shooting up Clinics" and some attempts at Rehabilitation and counselling.

Such approaches will never be 100 % effective for the reason mentioned in my first sentence (which Daily Mail and Daily Express readers seem to have huge problems coming to terms with - that Life is no t prefect and will never be prefect) but are surely better than the crap we have now.

88

Gay Gordon,

26/06/2007 09:33:02

#88 Ricco

It would save the health service money if they just refused to treat anyone who has used heroin in the last 6 months.

Why not?

They're starting to do this with smokers where operations and IVF treatment is concerned. So why not do this with junkies. At least the cigarrette smokers are contributing their money to the NHS every time they buy a packet of fags.

89

Gay Gordon,

26/06/2007 09:41:17

Anyone who has had a mother, granny etc beaten black and blue for a couple of quid, will agree that junkies should suffer and not be helped.

People tend to forget that once this mugging/burglary has taken place, it scars the individual for life. The way they have tp mug the weak, rather than the average man, makes these gits even the more pathetic, as the average man would snap these infested species in two.

There's a lot of excuses for junkies from the liberals these days however, "they're bad because the drug is controlling them." What next? Paedophiles. "Oh its a disease, they can't help it."

If it was up to me, I would inject them with a come down drug and give them a map which would show them the quickest route to get to the River Clyde.

90

Theo van Dam,

Veeningen Netherlands 26/06/2007 09:41:25

This is realy a pracmatical approach. As "the founding father" of user union all over Europe I'm often asked to have a presentation about prescibing Heroin. Nowerdays they say that addiction is a desease, so it should be reasenable to hand out medication. This will help users to survive, and it will be better for society as well. Be open about how to manage, it will not be availeble for everybody, it's just needed for those users who are addicted for many years who tryed to detox several times, and who are living in worse conditions. I'm always willing to discuss about this!!

91

Super Mario Tram,

26/06/2007 09:42:20

9. Well put sir.

92

Ricco,

26/06/2007 09:43:26

#91
I hear what you're saying, but it would leave the staff in A&E with impossible decisions to make - what to do with the drug user who is lying on the A&E floor? Drag him out to the car park for the cold to carry him off?

Also, it would not stop them breaking into your house or mine.

93

Super Mario Tram,

26/06/2007 09:44:43

Gay Gordon , I accept your knee jerk reaction regarding Muggings, can you accept the equally horrific situation of having a family member who has addiction problems ?

Do you know what a Physical Addiction actually is ? Have you ever been in a position where it is the body controlling the mind ?

Logic does not apply.

94

Brisbane Scot,

26/06/2007 09:46:08

Having this Cop making statements like this is no different to the Doctors theory on NHS rationing on the other forum, its a cop out if you will pardon the pun.

The future success of eliminating drugs out of Scottish society comes down to a Good Government working openly and honestly with Local Communities. Now I dont know about you lot but as a parent I know what is happening in my community. I know where the young folk go to have a drink and just hang out. I know who the young people would go to for drugs.But we realised we had a local police service who only wanted to get rid of them as much as we did. That is the secret plain and simple. Yes they think its a one of at the beginning but they soon waken up when the previous guy was arrested and the one before that etc.

The bottom line is we got back to the close communities Scotland had in the past and combine it with a local police service who were commited to ending the problem it would stop. There will be a few no go zones will survive because of community apathy, but as the numbers of success's go up the more will join. Nothing is going to get better until the local community demands it and is fully supproted by intensive government dedication.

95

Super Mario Tram,

26/06/2007 09:51:06

Drugs will NEVER be eliminated from society, you can stop thinking like that right now.

Ever taken a walk through Glasgow or Edinburgh late on a Friday Night ?

96

Citylocal Fife,

Citylocal Fife News Room 26/06/2007 09:51:16

We have passed the point of no return...

The only solution left is to supply drugs on prescription, this however must be after serious consultation and counselling, which should involve an ex addict as well as social services and medical people.

Of course, once this is in force all dealers should either face 80 years in jail with all assets seized, or if they don't want that, they may be allowed to take a fatal overdose, without any medical intervention whatsoever.

97

Gay Gordon,

26/06/2007 09:56:47

#96

body controlling the mind????

I'll remember that one, if ever I get caught having an affair.

Isn't it the addiction that is the controller?

These addicts make normal, hard working taxpayers lives hell. Can't we put them into a incarceration where thety're treated for 6 months and then released into society once they're CLEAN, rather than having them walk the streets.

Sometimes the city centre looks like a scene from 28 days later with all the zombies walking about. Not great for tourism, but that's a different topic altogether.

98

Super Mario Tram,

26/06/2007 09:57:46

Sorry , I am "contributing" too much I know.

However, we live in Scotland for Gods Sake - people with drink problems are not short in supply.

Thinking along the lines of "screw them" will only get you so far until someone you know and love is affected by it.

Currently I believe there are six month waiting lists to see an alcohol counsellor, goodness knows how long it is for someone with a smack problem.

As Theo says above (and the World Health Organisation also agree) , modern thinking is that addiction problems are diseases, complex ones involving mental health plus pyhsical addiction.

We are not Victorians, this isnt about Stiff Upper Lip and Denial.

Its time to spend some money on it and at least lower the numbers of people affected with little or no help, or consign them to illegal supply and the spiral of crime.

99

Gay Gordon,

26/06/2007 09:57:55

#99

That's more like it. You should be a politician. I'd vote for ya.

100

morris,

Edinburgh 26/06/2007 09:58:42

75

Of course he would not like them in Dundee any more than you would like them in Perth.Thats why I semi tongue in cheek suggested St Kilda.not because I have anything against St Kilda but because its still uninhabiated as far as I know and a long way away.
Peoples attitudes toward drugs are governed by their personal experience of drug takers.Most of the people with your attitude have no experience of what is involved. I worked in North Edinburgh for 25 years and Ive seen what it does and its the innocent people who suffer!
There are those who devote time to genuinely helping ,and I applaud their eforts,but they have lost the war which was never going to be won.
Theres only one way left, and thats remove them and let them go through the hell that they inflicted upon themselves.The people I do feel sorry for are the kids who were given drugs and had no idea what they were taking,and maybe even that they had taken them.

Ive seen the absloute depths to which human life can descend, and my patience was exhausted years ago.
I dont live there, but I feel sorry for the poor sods who do!I dont care a hoot for the drug addicts.They dont give a hoot for anybody else.They are not even sorry afterwards, and are planning their next mugging or theft.
They are just beyond reach and Im fed up reaching !

If I thought it was possible to solve this I would help to do so.Those who want help,fair enough thats worth trying. Some do actually make it,the majority are a lost cause and the only solution is isolation and no access to any substances.
They will emerge clean but they will go through hell first.
I can live with that more easily than I can live with the death of a friend, not from drugs, but from fear of her drug crazed neighbours and a resultant suicide.

If Ive got to lose a life let it be the wasters who go first!

101

Super Mario Tram,

26/06/2007 09:59:02

GG , theres no guarantee that people will be CLEAN after 6 months , once an addict always an addict, theres no magic solution , theres no waying magic wands to solve things like this !

Support will help though.

102

SamuraiCelt,

Japan 26/06/2007 10:02:53

Scullion - are you mad?

I don't believe what I've just read. This is NOT the way, not even short-term.

103

SamuraiCelt,

Japan 26/06/2007 10:09:09

Ceinwyn - now THAT makes sense! I would even venture for a dose of potassium chloride to be included with every 'free shot'. Admittedly a bit severe, but if counselling and/or other attempts at (the tax payers) help fails. . .

104

Brian Hill,

London 26/06/2007 10:10:15

At last the voice of reason and common sense. Even the blind and the deaf are aware that the so called 'drugs war' has been about as successful as the 'Just Say No' campaign to under age sex or any other 'socially undesirable activity'.

Not only will clinic administered drugs cut down on crime it will kill the drug trade altogether...whose going to buy when they can get it for free? Hooking new people (who have to buy) until they become addicts where they can then get the drug for free. It will also lessen the number of deaths caused when stronger 'pure' heroin hits the streets unbeknown to addicts.

As for the opponents of clinic administered drugs who claim it will 'send out the wrong signal' to addicts....they are not getting signals of any kind they are addicts whose life revolves round their next fix.

105

Allan(handofgod137),

26/06/2007 10:14:38

#9 Spot on! #70 alcoholics do however get approx £12/day extra on top of their sickness benefit to buy drink.

106

The Man Who Knows,

Republic of Perth 26/06/2007 10:17:21

103

Morris, I appreciate your sincerity but your solution appears to be about retribution rather than actually reducing the crimes perpetrated by addicts?

107

Helen,

26/06/2007 10:19:50

So....we should hand out free drugs to stop people committing crimes. What a load of rubbish!!! I've never taken an illegal drug in my life. That's my choice. No-one forces people to take drugs, it's their own choice and they should have to face the consequences of their actions. How long are we going to pussyfoot around with people who choose to break the law?

108

Smelly Jobby,

26/06/2007 10:21:16

Crack-ing idea!! Let's give them especially pure stuff and scrub them off the streets entirely.

Could this simply be a cheap and dirty answer to reduce crime stats, rather than a genuine attempt to help these poor souls?

109

GD,

Glasgow 26/06/2007 10:21:34

Give the drugs free but laced with other substances to chemically castrate the addicts so they don't spawn another generation with similar tendencies.

110

Turku Bentu,

26/06/2007 10:26:08

Give them hard drugs on prescription? What does he think METHADONE is, cough mixture? NO! it's HEROIN THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO INJECT FOLKS, which solves a few needle/ disease associated problems but does nothing to cure the underlying addiction, because the addict simply GETS ADDICTED TO METHADONE, which has the added convenience of being FREE, and the poor, shagged out GP/ psychiatrist who is trying to manage the abusive little tw@ who's just threatened/ abused half the occupants and staff in his surgery waiting room has lost the will to live so caves in and gives the addict what (s)he wants, safe in the knowledge that any attempt at dose reduction will merely prompt the addict to go back to injecting (jesus - I can tell you some of these tossers inject AND take methadone). Many studies have shown METHADONE TREATMENT HAS NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER ON CRIMINALITY AMONGST ADDICTS, SO WHAT MAKES YOU THINK GIVING THEM HARD DRUGS WILL? METHADONE IS A HARD DRUG.

What is needed here is a bit of tough love - people convicted of drug related crimes should undergo ENFORCED cold turkey in a controlled environment as part of their sentence. 2 weeks of agony then it's all over - and they probably won't want to do it again...

111

Ally,

Edinburgh 26/06/2007 10:29:12

It occurred to me fairly regularly throughout McConnell's administration that a compulsory heroin course might have made him more effective too...

Anyway, a range of options might sort the problem out:

- volunteer to come off on an NHS problem (as above): no problem. We've all made mistakes; we'll help with the tax money to pay for this.
- don't volunteer then get caught thieving: St Kilda Cold Turkey Centre. One month cold turkey, five running the laundry / kitchen / centre for the new arrivals and getting job help / training for when you come back.
- get caught dealing: 100% asset seizure (not the "what can you prove / what can you not prove was acquired through illegal proceeds" nonsense) with asset assessment at the point of arrest, not once the court case has wended its way through the system for 2 years. And, of course, a compulsory jail sentence with zero unmonitored outside contact.

Easy really.

112

Turku Bentu,

26/06/2007 10:42:19

Sorry folks - bit of a rant there. For those that can't be arsed to read it here are the main points.

1) Methadone is a hard drug and it doesn't work, so why should shooting up clinics be any different?

2) If you want to escape an opiate addiction you have to go through some level of cold turkey - it's not something you can skirt around. Your body/ brain is full of natural opiates designed to ease the pain of everyday living, and when you flood it with skag it stops making them, and it takes a couple of weeks to start again once you take the skag away - hence the pain.

3) Addicts are generally weak willed people anyway, so the prospect of pain is a major barrier. The only way to get them off is to be tough and force them through it. If the environment in which you do this is controlled, secluded, comfortable and hygenic with access to medical care/ some level of substitute opiates/ non-opiod analgesics and sedatives cold turkey can be managed safely until completion.

We send addicts to prison, which is the kind of place where such a controlled environment could be created quite easily, and they sit on their arses 24/7, and come out with bigger habits than they went in with!

113

Miss H,

26/06/2007 10:45:49

Actually a sensible proposal. It's not just that 75% of property crime is believed to be drugs related - the vast majority of organised crime is drug related.

Prohibition does not work. The experience of prohibition America should have taught us that.

Prohibition = loss of control.

114

AD in sunny Livingston,

26/06/2007 10:46:10

If they allow this they'd have to allow euthanasia - let's face it, what's the difference - except for the obvious timescale?

115

Miss H,

26/06/2007 10:53:09

A lot of misapprehensions here - it is actually perfectly legal to prescribe heroin now and some GPs do. Most do not because they have no guidelines on it. Most of them prescribe methadone because that is the current advice.

116

The Man Who Knows,

Republic of Perth 26/06/2007 10:56:13

109

Fair enough Helen but what is your solution?

117

The Man Who Knows,

Republic of Perth 26/06/2007 10:57:50

114

Fair enough Jacqueline but your attempt at humour doesn't move us any closer to a solution.

118

pete the punk,

26/06/2007 11:03:37

#30 dick by name...

guga II rockall - dick by nature

119

Super Mario Tram,

26/06/2007 11:10:49

Please leave St. Kilda out of this , its a nice place and I hope to visit some day and not find hordes of Junkies there.

120

bob thornley,

edinburgh 26/06/2007 11:12:39

Why do The Scotsman keep using that stock picture showing what is undoubtably an actor injecting into a vein in completely the wrong direction? Injecting this way is going against the blood flow and also will tear through the delicate one way valves in the vein causing untold internal scarring and damage which will lead to rapid vein collapse. This photo should be burned and the "creative" who thought it up fired for poor research. Next time maybes ask someone who has a clue.

121

Listen Ear,

26/06/2007 11:17:31

Drug Dealers know that drugs lead to the death of many users, eirther by overdose, Suicide or HIV. They are blatantly murdering people for profit or to feed their own habit.

My Younger Brother was such a Victim.

We need to take drastic steps.........

1. Build Bigger Jails and put drug dealers away for long periods.

1st Offence = 5 years no payrole
2nd Offence = 10 Years no payrole
3rd Offence = 30 Years no payrole

If the Quantity they are caught with is more than for personal use of say 5 people, they get 30 Years no payrole.


2. For Users; Often it is the Drug User that is turned to becoming a dealer to feed their own habit. They also need to be taken off the street.

1st Posession Offence - 1 Month Rehab
2nd Posession Offence - 3 Months Rehab
3rd Posession Offence - 6 Months Rehab
4th Posession Offence - 5 Years Prison Payrole within X years, depending on severity of case
5th Posession Offence - 5 Years Prison No Payrole

122

Super Mario Tram,

26/06/2007 11:26:52

Rehab, Counselling and Education are CHEAPER and more effective than bunging people in jails.

Luckily , some of you are in charge of nothing except your own keyboard (and that probably belongs to your employer).

123

Aber-Scot,

26/06/2007 11:32:37

A Wokable Solution:

Perhaps not immediate but I believe effective:

Compulsory drug testing in the work-place will scare the social (yuppy) users who are creating the drug culture and will make them think twice if they know they will lose their job, lifestyle etc.

Once it becomes socially unacceptable at this level it will feed down to every level of society.

Just a thought...

124

Gay Gordon,

26/06/2007 11:37:54

You'll probably find that there is treatment in prisons (I usd to work in HMP Kilmarnock) as well as a methadone programme, that the prisoners get first thing in the morning and last thing at night.

And they also have councilling from the prisons psychiatrist once a week and meetings from ex-addicts from the outside take place twice a week.

And all this for free. Maybe crime does pay.

125

Darren, Edinburgh,

26/06/2007 11:43:42

The reason enforcement has not been successful is the lenient sentencing the courts hand out to offenders. It is a total joke - Persistent repeat offenders should be locked up. They have a total disregard for the community. It is totally pathetic that a drug addict convicted of his 50th shoplifting offence is facing the same penalty as a first-time offender for speeding. This country has gone to the wall.

126

Findlay Thompson,

26/06/2007 11:44:32

1. Firstly - nuke the producers.
2. Round up all the middle men (the money makers) - the death sentence for each & every.
3. Local dealers / users subject to a minimum of 5 years national service.

That would work...honest!

127

Sedov,

Scotland 26/06/2007 11:45:01

#129 Gay gordon. Would you prefer that the addicts receive no treatment and give the prison officers an even worse time than they are at present?

128

Gay Gordon,

26/06/2007 11:48:48

#132

one of the reasons why i left in the first place, was that officers were turning a blind eye to the drug taking. If the prisoners were out of it, then it made their shift a lot easier.

Some of the prisoners who were on smack, also had the cheek to take methadone twice a day as well.

129

petrol head,

Edinburgh 26/06/2007 11:51:15

OK, so lets prescribe illegal drugs to junkies then.

Whilst we're about it, how about issuing burglers with jemmies and ladders? How about giving car thieves a course on how to defeat alarms and imobilisers? How about giving motorists devices to jam speed cameras?

The police are there to enforce the law, not skirt round it because they are finding it difficult. If they are going to hand out drugs to junkies, I want the smoking ban repealed NOW.

130

Miss H,

26/06/2007 11:52:54

125 The alcohol industry knows that alcohol leads to the death of 6 people in Scotland a day at the last count.

The tobacco industry knows that cigarettes lead to very nasty diseases like lung cancer.

People who make chocolate doughnuts know that too many lead to strokes and heart disease.

A great many more people are killed by alcohol, cigarettes and bad diet than are killed by illegal drugs.

131

Help Ma Boab,

Edinburgh 26/06/2007 11:53:29

Everone should read post 9, probably the most sensible comment i have ever read on the Scotsman. Anyone who has lived with and worked with drugs will know that the suggested actions in the comment would have much more of a positive effect than the current system. and that is exactly the reason it wont happen, common sense goes out the window when this topic is discussed and sheer ignorance of the realities always shines through.

And to understand the sublime to the ridiculous, read post 131. Honest.

132

AdaptableAnnie,

England 26/06/2007 11:54:43

Interesting that a call to prescribe heroin is followed by an item about rationing on the NHS..... The current costs to the NHS of Methadone are huge - and recipients are still addicted. Most drug users I have worked with want to get clean - many fear they can't do it and so continue in their addiction. They don't want to steal, prostitute themselves, become social outcasts - they want to become normal. For heaven's sake help them - get them into a good residential rehab programme and see how it will change their lives. Not a 6 week programme but a 6 month one. With good support afterwards most will become productive and responsible members of society.

133

Miss H,

26/06/2007 11:55:10

135 the point is that they won't need the jemmies and ladders to break into your house and rob you to get money to buy drugs because they can get them prescribed.

But of the principle of not allowing people to take illegal drugs is more important to you than cutting crime I can respect that.

Just make sure you have a good burglar alarm.

134

Miss H,

26/06/2007 11:58:16

135 incidentally there is no ban on smoking per se - simply on smoking in public places.

Do you think that prohibiting smoking competely would stop people smoking?

135

David Milligan,

West Dunbartonshire 26/06/2007 12:01:44

I liked the comment from decent one / 8:42am 26 Jun 2007 who wrote "Heroin on prescription would be a disaster. However, 'shooting galleries' where the drug user is seen to inject the drug is a very good idea. Crime would fall as users no longer need to commit crime to feed their habit.

I do disagree with
"Class A drugs such as heroin should not be legalised. This would allow dealers to ply their trade with no consequences. Dealers should be dealt with much more harshly.

(I think that the bottom would fall out of their market - don't you?)

I think this shows insight;-
"What hasn't been considered here is the link between drugs and the Taleban. If drugs were available in shooting galleries then the demand for opium would fall and the Taleban would earn less money. This would obviously be more successful if other EU countries followed on".

My response
I would like to add to this by saying that first I have absolute glowing admiration for the bravery of John Vine who has spoken out where other unnamed individuals (MSP's) would rather protect their tenuous political position and let the terrible and worsening state of affairs continue.
Our Scottish Parliament could de-criminalise drug use overnight and the social effects would be astounding. MSP's would actually be accused of doing something positive for a change.
If something (anything) costs you £100 but is going to save to £300 and save you from untold problems then buying that thing is a no-brainer.
It would cost the executive a lot of money to do this but I'll bet my last fiver on the fact that it would save a heck of a lot more and benefit the peole of Scotland. The administration and logistics of such a move would be unbelievably complex to stop people from abusing the system and would it be possible to see hits of crystal meth sold over the counter at Boots?

I feel that the idea is right but requires a lot of thought. Who kn

136

IainA,

Edinburgh 26/06/2007 12:04:57

we've been fighting "The War on Drugs" since the fifties. Let's face it, we're losing. It's just too easy to smuggle drugs into the country, we've got enormous amounts of unpoliced coastline, overstretched and underesourced police and customs, up against drug cartels who have to all intents and purposes unlimited resources, not to mention a willingness to use violence against any who get in their way.

The huge profits to be made made from hard drugs is because they are illegal, the actual production costs of heroin or what have you are buttons compared to the street price.

If the drugs weren't illegal, the profits to be made from them would be very small, the illegal drugs industry would collapse.

The point has been made over and over that much of the crime committed today is drugs related, if the drugs were easily obtained from a doctor, at prescription prices, sold in prepacked single use syringes, with guaranteed clean needles much of the diseases associated with drugs would disappear along with the crime.

The plain truth of it is that those who argue for extra police, stiffer sentences, hanging, mandatory cold turkey etc. are spitting into the wind trying to protect people from themselves and punish the poor losers who are addicted to the stuff.

137

megz,

East Renfrewshire 26/06/2007 12:10:49

These people should be sterilised and their children taken off them, it's a bit right wing but in the best interests of all concerned i think.

138

Bert,

26/06/2007 12:15:38

Give them all a free overdose and put them out of their misery. If not then at least neuter them so that they don't bring any poor, wee souls into that kind of existence.

139

decent one,

26/06/2007 12:17:29

No141
Thanks for the comments. However, you disagree with me over legalising drugs. I think what you are saying is that it would become a buyers market meaning drugs would be cheaper. Yes, this would be the case to a small extent. The fact is, the price of heroin does not stop a person from using. It is fairly cheap already.

Legalising drugs would be a nightmare. Believe me ! With little retribution dealers would encourage endless children to try it.

140

Super Mario Tram,

26/06/2007 12:19:53

True IainA. You Do have to wonder if the people spouting ultra right wing "solutions" are capable of realising that most of that stuff has been tried and has failed.

They are probably the same people who want to throw peoples keys away when they commit offences and cant understand that the government does not have an unlimited supply of cash , and will greet and whinge about any possible increases in their taxes.

All in all , it makes me want to smoke crack.

141

Super Mario Tram,

26/06/2007 12:21:14

"With little retribution dealers would encourage endless children to try it."

Like our supermarkets do with brightly coloured sweet booze ?

142

decent one,

26/06/2007 12:27:35

No115
It's quite clear you have very little knowledge of methadone. Methadone does not give you a 'high'. You know you've taken it sure, but unlike heroin there is no high. It is this 'high' that the drug addicts look for.
Therefore, shooting galleries giving heroin would not be the same as methadone programmes because methadone is not what the addict wants. Heroin is . They would be getting exactly what they desire.

143

decent one,

26/06/2007 12:30:00

No147
Yes !

144

Salvatori,

Embra 26/06/2007 12:30:43

The fact is that most drug related deaths particulary where drugs such as heroin are concerned are connected to buying drugs on the street of dubious quality and varying strength, with the various health consequences of infection etc related to impure drugs, means that prescribing heroin will cut down on deaths, associated illnesses associated with "street drug use, and give addicts desperate to come off, a fighting chance to do so under supervision.

It wil also destroy the black market. A fairly recent trial in Bournemouth saw the result of prescribing heroin lead not only more addicts coming off drugs, but also a dramatic drop in housebreaking.

Addicts deserve a chance to get themselves clean - to discard them to the ravages of their addictions is simply wrong. Addictions can effect anyone of us, brothers, sisters, friends and parents, and regardless of how addiction came about in the first place.

145

BunterBoy,

Greenock 26/06/2007 12:31:42

We really need to begin electing top policemen like this. He should resign immediately. Come and live in Greenock for a while and see what living beside heroin addicts REALLY means for the rest of us.
Misery and intimidation, thats what.

146

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

Scotland 26/06/2007 12:37:32

New Sport,

We could collect them all year, let them loose in the forest then hunt them on horseback with dogs and red coats and big sharp implements.

In the process we save the poor foxes, after all we can make it legal by just having an owl present.

Shall we have a referendum on this?

147

The Man Who Knows,

Republic of Perth 26/06/2007 12:38:48

151

BunterBoy, fair enough but why do they intimidate and cause misery? Could it be because they are looking for their next fix?

148

King Doug,

Glasgow 26/06/2007 12:41:39

Alcohol ruins lives without people batting an eyelid because it is legal. Let's not make the same mistake with heroin. This officer may not be advocating 2 for 1 deals on smack in Asda, but it's the start of a slippery slope. Some people may think they're looking at the bigger picture, but they're falling short of a long-term solution.

I'm inclined to be against legalising any drugs. I was one of the few people in my group of friends at school who didn't at least try cannabis and I was shocked to find several of my closest friends had taken cocaine and ecstacy. One friend even joked about trying ketamine. This is with drugs that you can't buy from a legal source. I'd hate to think what would happen if illegal drugs started being sold over a counter. The last thing we need is the possibility of kids getting even easier access to these substances, and once we legalise it slightly, there will only be calls to legalise it a little bit more, then a little bit more... It all seems very sordid to me - only last month I was reminded of the fact that cocaine is becoming "the new cannabis" in terms of how common it is getting, when I saw a friend's friends taking some like it was a drink. Smoking cannabis is now such a small deal that you get the BBC news website displaying peoples memories of the 90s with phrases like "we just got stoned all the time", which certainly does nothing to help matters.

Shall we legalise murder to lower crime statistics?

149

IainA,

Edinburgh 26/06/2007 12:41:43

#146 Super Mario Tram

Funny you should mention that most of the extreme solutions have been tried. I was reading posts #143 and #144. Their solutions have also been tried before - Germany 1934 - 1945 I believe - Don't think it worked out too well.

Before those posters protest, I am NOT accusing them of being fascists, but those things really were tried, sterilisation, the removal of children and state sanctioned killing - of drug addicts, the mentally ill, the handicapped. The list of elegibles just got longer as time went on.

This was not a part of the holocaust, it was German state policy under Hitler's government, morally repugnant though it may be.

It didn't work, and it didn't work because the causes of drug addiction are not genetic, they are social, you can't solve the problem by killing or sterilising the drug addicts and taking their children, That doesn't solve the underlying social issues that make people - who know what drugs will do to them - go down that path. Poverty, low self esteem, peer pressure, the whole lot.

Of course, the other problem with sterilisation and state sanction killing, is that the criteria of who's eligible does become more elastic over time, it's a very slippery slope to start on.

150

Michael J,

Cambridge 26/06/2007 12:42:09

This is a brilliant idea to cut the crime figures!

Perhaps we could also supply car thieves with free cars? Bank robbers could have the keys to the bank, muggers could be free to beat up the elderly in care homes. How much safer we would all feel if the crime figures were reduced!

In the meantime however I suggest that the Chief Constable, having seemingly given up fighting crime, finds himself a job that is within his capability and that Tayside appoints someone who is prepared to uphold the law rather than worrying about how things look on paper.

151

The Man Who Knows,

Republic of Perth 26/06/2007 12:48:56

It is evident from today's forum that flogging and hanging drug addicts appeals to a lot of people. No doubt this is the same group which believes in the death penalty, belting schoolkids, and nuking our enemies. These are easy solutions - just as independence would cure all of Scotland's problems?

152

The Man Who Knows,

Republic of Perth 26/06/2007 12:49:49

156

Michael J, you don't know Mr Vine.

153

Super Mario Tram,

26/06/2007 12:50:37

Was also Swedish Policy for a number of years for Retarded people and Mongoloids IanH.

What I propose is sterilisation, castration , asset siezure and general illwill towards all people who spout ridiculous right wing rhetoric whilst not showing any unerstanding of the subject matter whatsoever.

This would result in a general "cheering up" feeling all over scotland and would see the rate of drug use for pyschic defence decline dramatically.

:P

154

ericmac,

Sunny Gourock, By the Sea 26/06/2007 12:51:37

I live in Inverclyde where the problem has long since reached epidemic proportions, and you cannot escape these drug-addled reprobates. They are everywhere!! Any time of the day in any Pharmacy here you can see people getting their methadone fixes, while the rest of us wait patiently to PAY for our wares. Saddest part is the amount of so-called, mainly young 'parents', with the token wean (poor wee person) in the pushchair walking (floating) through Greenock shopping centre right oot their tree. Sadly you can spot them a mile away. Another problem I have with this Scum is the amount of dosh they are creaming (legally, apparently) from the DSS, no doubt for evermore, or until they take too much of their poison when they are rendered "Aff The Turf" and they then go on to enjoy "The Big Sleep", the main saving grace there being they are off the payroll of the tax-payer. The dealers are oft blamed, and rightly so, however, the old adage: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink it" is aptly appropriate. Any eejit who thinks they can take this stuff with no risk of addiction deserves everything he or she gets. No point in saying that the Govt will get it fixed - bottom line is that there are too many people using this crap that there is not enough resource to make a dent in it. Death penalty to all the dealers and users. Problem solved.

155

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

Scotland 26/06/2007 12:53:08

#157

Just trying to think of something usefull for them, I was starting to think the Romans had the right idea, we should use them as gladiator fodder....

We only say it in jest. But tagging them would be a good idea an addict would lead you straight to its source, then tag them and so on and so on, eventually you will have a grasp on the situation and the power to sriously thwart there operations if not stamp it out.

156

Walter Ego,

Durness 26/06/2007 12:54:12

157

TMWK, you have stolen my words. Easy solutions appeal to some people: they don't require much thought. It is the difficult and brave decisions (such as the Chief Constable's idea) which move things forward.

157

Walter Ego,

Durness 26/06/2007 12:56:04

160 ericmac

What about Morton supporters?

158

sPIN,

N. Yorks. 26/06/2007 12:56:55

Well said the Chief Constable.

This would really needle the drug pedlars, reduce crime and improve the nations financial strain on the NHS.

159

Smelly Jobby,

smoking rice crispies is cool 26/06/2007 12:57:11

if they are going to pay for the addictions of a bunch of low-life scum that contribute nothing but pain to society, are they also going to pay my prescriptions? Or do I have to become a criminal to get my drugs for free?

160

Salvatori,

Embra 26/06/2007 12:57:14

156 - car theft, mugging etc are in the main, the knock on effect of drug addiction. So yes, prescribing drugs may well have an effect on this.

And for people to say kids will get drugs easier if it is available over the counter is nonsense. Supply will be controlled - people won't be able to buy it like they can a bottle of wine.

Kids can already get their hands on drugs with ease - just ask your friendly local dealer. If you knock them out of the market and supply chain, drugs will be harder to get other than through a registered prescription programme.

161

Smelly Jobby,

smoking rice crispies is cool 26/06/2007 13:02:09

As someone has already said - the police are there to ENFORCE the law, not to MAKE the law. That pigman should shut his pustulles.

162

Miss H,

26/06/2007 13:04:41

165 yes they are going to pay your prescriptions

163

petrol head,

Edinburgh 26/06/2007 13:08:15

Miss H:

Why are you so much in favour of supplying morons with illegal substances?

Do you not realise that this proposition is indicative of the police failing to enforce the law?

In this day and age, the effects of class A drugs are very widely known and understood, yet you still get people who are stupid enough to take them. Treating them as "victims" is entirely wrong and is an affront to the vast majority of normal people.

If they are "victims", they are victims only of their own stupidity. No-one forces them to inject smack and no-one forces them to inhale white dust. They do so of their own volition.

All of those who are proposing that if drugs are freely (inexpensively) available then the problem will dissappear are forgetting some fundamental principles. They are also forgetting the disasterous effects of these drugs on whoever takes them.

The problem is not down to money either. Spending all your money on drugs due to an additction is not the only thing that ruins people's lives. There are plenty of very rich people who have had their lives ruined by drugs:-

Tara Palmer-Tomkinson, Keith Richards, Eric Clapton, Kate Moss... to name but a few.

There are others whose experience was a bit more terminal:-

Mama Cass, Keith Moon, John Bonham, Jim Morrison.

If you make this poison freely available, there will be a lot more names to add to this list.

164

Hadrian,

26/06/2007 13:09:20

In these days of genetic engineering, would it not be possible to genetically modify the basic plants used to manufacture these drugs ,so that they no longer produce the drugs and air drop the seeds in the producing areas. It may be possible to make the growing totally unprofitable because it would not be known what plant produced a useable drug and what didnt, untill processed.
And before the squeals start," we cant do that", remember that we are in a drug war, and we aint winning.
At the same time, offer the farmers an alternative crop,and pay them a decent price for it, i.e better than possible from the drug crop.
Done honestly, keep the spooks,politicians, spindoctors, criminals and other nasties out of the business, and it might just work.
and it might just eventually clean up these areas.
Remember, enlightened self-interest (greed) usually works.

165

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 26/06/2007 13:09:29

Something different has to be tried.

Controlling the addiction as opposed to just policing it may be the way to go.

After all can we really say we're winning the drugs war with the present methods??

166

Miss H,

26/06/2007 13:10:02

157 I don't see the connection.

Independence is about taking responsibility for our own problems and finding our own solutions instead of relying on others.

The hang em flog em approach is not about finding solutions. It is just a ritual catharsis (with an element of sadism thrown in - if it was possible to throw junkies to the lions there are no doubt people who would be quite keen to watch that).

167

Miss H,

26/06/2007 13:18:08

169 Earlier I asked you if you would be in favour of criminalising smoking.

You didn't answer.

If you believe that the right way to control dangerous substances is by criminalising them then why are you not in favour of criminalising cigarettes? And alcohol. And chips.

Those three substances have killed more people in Scotland than heroin ever has or ever will, until the end of time.

If it is sensible to criminalise heroin why would it not sensible to criminalise cigarettes, booze and chips?

And if it would not be sensible to criminalise cigarettes, booze and chips, why is it sensible to criminalise heroin?

168

Gay Gordon,

26/06/2007 13:19:28

Not so long ago, in Ibrox, there were three junkies shhoting up ina high rise flat. One of their "friends" overdosed and died.

The other two smack heads panicked as they didn't want to go to prison, so they picked their friend up and tossed him over the balcony.

SCUM!!!

169

Taking a Bigot's Money,

Dundee 26/06/2007 13:23:14

This might make sense if there were a direct correlation between crime statistics and drug-use.

Dundee has the highest rate of problem drug use in Scotland. The city is estimated to have more than 2500 drug users, 2.8% of the population aged 15-54, misusing heroin and valium.

One therefore would expect house break-ins/burglary to be a problem - but it is not. According to Endsleigh Insurance Dundee is the 3rd most secure place to live.

For anyone who is or has had to deal with a relative who is taking drugs the issue of drugs-related crime is a minor one. Much worse is watching the slow self-destruction and premature aging that goes with drug abuse.

This is not hearsay but from experience - my wife's own nephew is a heroin addict. He has destroyed his life, wasting the £50,000 insurance he received when his mother died in a car accident. He, as a last desperate measure, used the last £3,000 of his money for a 6-week course in rehab. It worked initially but he was soon back on heroin.

Why?

Well, 6 weeks is not nearly enough time to deal with the psychological part of drugs abuse - it only deals with the physical side. A course that had last 6 months may have given him a chance to get on his feet again. Moreover, having finished his course it was all too easy to return to drugs - many of his friends were still taking heroin and anyone who knows Dundee's schemes will tell you that heroin in some parts is almost endemic.

My worry if we decriminalise completely is that many young people will see it as being the norm - that it is okay to take drugs.

The government needs to be serious in supporting those who want to stop taking drugs - that means spending real money on rehab instead of the state-sponsored drug addiction that is Methadone. it also means doing real research into why these young people take drugs - the causes are not as easy to understand as some might think. It is easy to say that unemploymen

170

ericmac,

Sunny Gourock, By the Sea 26/06/2007 13:30:48

163 Walter Ego - Aye, well-spotted... Greenock is synonymous with duh.. Greenock Morton. You miss the point, mon Teuchter ami, the drug-scum of these lowland parts are certainly NOT to be found in the numbers of the 'Ton faithful of a wet Saturday afternoon on the Tail O' The Bank faithfully shouting for the Boys from Scappa Flow....

171

Miss H,

26/06/2007 13:33:25

177 Nobody is talking about decriminalising it completely, what is being suggested is heroin on prescription.

172

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

Scotland 26/06/2007 13:34:05

We could give them a quick fix and a one way ticket to London........ only kidding.......

173

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

Scotland 26/06/2007 13:38:25

Or better still......

A quick fix new uniform and a flight to Iraq in the back of a hercules, chuck them out the back parachute attached into the centre of baghdad........

Then when the iraqi's are taking pot shots at them get all our guys out.

What do you think?

174

David Milligan,

West Dunbartonshire 26/06/2007 13:41:57

The Man Who Knows, Republic of Perth / 1:48pm 26 Jun 2007 Wrote "It is evident from today's forum that flogging and hanging drug addicts appeals to a lot of people. No doubt this is the same group which believes in the death penalty, belting schoolkids, and nuking our enemies. These are easy solutions - just as independence would cure all of Scotland's problems?"

My response
I believe that drugs should be legalised even though the steps to do this would be complex to say the least. One other thing though - I do believe also that the death penalty should be brought back for certain crimes and I think it is time that we did consider bringing back the belt into schools - oor kids are running riot and need a real respect for authority to become good citizens. Oh and another thing - Independence is not a cure all but will give Scotland the autonomy to run the country as we see fit - not the English Parliament - don't you agree?

Have a nice day and keep smilin'

175

Miss H,

26/06/2007 13:42:13

176

Think about it this way. 6 people a day in Scotland die from alcohol abuse. So alcohol is clearly an extremely dangerous drug.

The current Scottish government is therefore proposing to take a number of measures such as banning cheap alcohol promotions.

But supposing they took it much further? Supposing they decided that alcohol was so dangerous that it should be made illegal?

What do you think would happen then?

Well we can guess what would happen by looking at the experience of America under prohibition.

We can also look at the experience in this country in regard to heroin. Since heroin was made illegal (because for centuries it was not illegal) heroin use has rocketed. That does not, of course, mean that making heroin illegal has caused an increase in heroin use - but it does mean that it has not prevented it.

Prohibition does not work.

176

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

Scotland 26/06/2007 13:46:04

#183

Its a simple calculation and assessment of your expendable assets.

Were not going to win that anyway so we might as well kill two birds with one stone so to speak.

If only......

177

yolanda,

26/06/2007 13:58:50

#9, scotsdoc,

I don't entirely agree with you about legalisation of everything, but apart from that, I think yours is one of the most honest and sensible postings on here.

178

Miss H,

26/06/2007 14:00:37

187

Sure heroin only became widespread in the late 20th century after it had been criminalised. So criminalisig it did not stop that, did it?

You don't get my point regarding this - it's not about saying let's not have any laws governing drug use. There are laws governing alcohol use, tobacco use etc. Similarly there should be laws governing drug use. But complete prohibition does not work with drugs which are currently illegal, any more than it would work with drugs which are currently legal.

Prohibition will not last for very much longer - the fact that senior police officers now feel confident to say in public what they have been saying in private for years is a sign of that.

I believe that fifty years from now people will look back at the way our society and legal system tried to control drug use and they will be amazed at our stupidity and stubborness in clinging to a model which so obviously did not work.

179

Taking a Bigot's Money,

Dundee 26/06/2007 14:13:05

Miss H - why are you so keen to see heroin prescribed?

It seems to me that you have not got a clue about the real effects of heroin on the individual and on their families.

180

The Man Who Knows,

Republic of Perth 26/06/2007 14:19:13

184

David, thanks for your response. My comment about independence was intended to stir things up and I am surprised that only your goodself has picked up on it. I agree that it is time Scotland took a greater control of its own destiny, but the point that I was trying to make is that a lot of contributors to these forums think that independence would be a panacea - a cure all for the country's ills - but it would be far from that and would be the start of a great deal of hard work.

181

Super Mario Tram,

26/06/2007 14:20:05

Police officers and other members of society HAVE been saying this for years.

We all seem to have a selective memory when it comes to this "StoryBank" Crap.

Same old, Same old - If I could be bothered i would look through the archives and find possibly TEN identical stories.

182

Smallgrey,

Waltham,MA, USA 26/06/2007 14:20:21

The point is not to stop drug addiction, people are always going to be addicted to something, it's to stop the violence that goes along with it, thereby making lives safer. The petty crime is not the major problem, the killings and gang warfare from turf wars is as a result of drugs being illegal is what needs to be acknowledged.
People become addicted to alcohol, oh well. However, during Prohibition in the US there were the same turf wars for the sale of alcohol on the streets. Stopped after the alcohol was made legal again. Same problem, same solution.

183

Miss H,

26/06/2007 14:27:39

190 Heroin on prescription would not result in an increase in heroin addicts. It would however result in a greatly reduced profit for drug dealers - the most effective way of combating these people is by destroying their market.

184

Miss H,

26/06/2007 14:34:16

191

Dealers only exist because there is a demand for an illegal substance which cannot be met other than illegally.

As long as that situation continues you will continue to have a trade in illegal drugs with all that is associated with it.

185

The Man Who Knows,

Republic of Perth 26/06/2007 14:35:54

194

Smallgrey, depends on what you regard as petty crime: in my book, an elderly person being mugged for her handbag, or having her house burgled isn't petty crime. My view is that Mr Vine's idea is worth serious consideration as I think that it would reduce the type of crimes I refer to. If the drugs barons and gangs want to kill each other, that is fine by me as long as innocent people don't get caught in the middle.

186

Miss H,

26/06/2007 14:36:05

196 now you are just being silly.

Either discuss things that can actually be done to reduce the crime associated with illegal drug use or admit that you don't have any ideas other than to plough on with the same failed policies.

187

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

Scotland 26/06/2007 14:39:50

#196

Definately with you on this one Gordon. But a waste of good rope

188

The Man Who Knows,

Republic of Perth 26/06/2007 14:41:31

199

Miss H, what do you mean he's NOW just being silly?

189

rene,

rene 26/06/2007 14:42:30

has anyone given a thought to the abuse the medical staff will suffer when dealing with the druggies , it is bad enough just now and their drugs are not on prescription
i have seen first hand how abusive they can be to staff so therefore i am biased against drugs on prescription

190

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

Scotland 26/06/2007 14:44:07

#199

We have the ability to change our laws, upon arrest all serious drug users and dealers of Class A substances automatically are elligible for our new peace keeping terrorist fodder core, with imediate effective deployment to areas of high global hazard.

Why waste good men....

191

The Man Who Knows,

Republic of Perth 26/06/2007 14:59:14

205

Chairman, see 67, 68 and 73 above.

Interesting to read in my local evening paper that "a new online directory was launched today aimed at providing drug users and their families with important information on more than 220 copmmunity-based and residential services offering treatment throughout Scotland". Sums up the problem, does it not? All of these programmes and the situation is getting worse.

Also interesting to read that Public Health Minister Shona Robison insists that Mr Vine is wrong and that drug addicts "would be better served by treatment".

192

aonghas,

Aberdeen 26/06/2007 15:13:20

I agree that the most active law-enforcement in Aberdeen are the traffic wardens.
I have seen addicts smoking crack cocaine openly on market street & closed on Queens Rd (maybe if they were parked on a double-yellow they would be caught).
For a city so geographically isolated not be able to control the inflow of Class A drugs is UNBELIEVABLE!
There are 3,000 registered addictis in Aberdeen (tip of the iceberg) out of a population of 300,000 (do the maths)
Aberdeen sorely needs SOMETHING as the police are too busy catching traffic offenders - maybe a Class A addict is as well doing it all in the relative calm of the GP office - along with the class C & B users (valium, oxycodiene etc)
Drug users in all classes will find a way to use their "class" of drug - there is no answer but personal choice (when you hooked you have NO choice).
Dia-Morphine (herion) is a controlled drug why not use that control via the GP system to detox addicts like valium is used to detox alcoholics? Are we a wee bit snobby about our "class" of addiction ?

193

dcraven725,

Baltimore Md. usa 26/06/2007 15:25:42

I'm from america,actually i live in the city that has some of the most heroin in the whole country,baltimore. Downtown b-more is nice but east,west and south baltimore is crazy.every other road you drive through someone is selling herion.and on the other roads you can buy crack. When i was young(im 24now)I moved from west baltimore city to about a 10 minute drive away to bmore county.One of the main problems for our city is that there are thousands of county kids going into the city to buy dope in communities that are poor. Its not hard to understand why these people sell drugs, its not easy for most of them to make money honestly unless we can somehow create more well paying jobs. Anyways, Ive never been to the uk,my grandparents moved here from ireland in the 20's so i dont know what the drug culture is like there. When i was in high school i smoked weed and drank,then when i was 18 i had a soccer(sorry) injury in which i was perscribed codiene. After a few months on the pills i loved them but it wasnt enouugh, and my doc endend my persription, so i started buying oxycontins.Now six years ago,not many of us knew that oxy's were as addictive as they really are. After a while it became cheaper to go get herion. Now I felt horrible, i new i was a junkie and hated it, but i still needed the drugs.After a year an herion, i quit cold turkey, going through withdrawl for what felt like weeks.After a while i started feeling normal agian, and i stayed clean for a year until i relapsed for another year. Then i decided i wanted to get clean and never use again.

I went to a great therapy group once a week and get what i believe should be used instead of methadone, its caleed SUBOXONE(or bupemorhin). Suboxone is a miricale drug, It is non-narcotic,no opiotes are in it so you dont get high like you do on methadone.And if you try to use herion while yor on it you wont get high. Some doctors only prescribe it for a few weeks, however my doctor had me on it for a year befo

194

larsonsmum,

aberdeenshire 26/06/2007 15:28:26

Yes, major steps have to be taken to combat this dreadful drug war all over Scotland.

However, more importantly, I strongly believe work is required on finding out what it is that causes people to start on drugs in the very first place.

The reasons people - especially teenagers - turn to drugs need to be examined and much more provisions put in place to stop this happening.

I don't think nearly enough research is going into this aspect of things.

195

dcraven725,

Baltimore Md. usa 26/06/2007 15:30:53

And for all the people who believe killing addicts is the right solution i think you crazy. Think about it ,here in America we have the death penalty enforced in many states and it certainly has NOT stoped the amount of murders that have been commited. People who want to get drugs face getting the death penaly every time they go into some parts here in baltimore md. but that certainly doesnt stop annyone. People who need a fix are gonna find it no matter what the possible punishment.

196

The Man Who Knows,

Republic of Perth 26/06/2007 15:31:03

207

Chairman, this is the first time I have been called a liberal: I never thought that this would happen. I'll add this to the list of all the other things I've been called. Thanks.

I am not saying that drugs should be legalised. What I am saying is that the Chief Constable's idea is worthy of serious consideration and that it may be worthwhile running a strictly controlled pilot to see what happens. I would add that my concern is for the people who suffer at the hands of the addicts but I think that such a pilot would show a reduction in crime in the pilot area.

197

Miss H,

26/06/2007 15:46:11

206 Drug addicts who want to give up would obviously be served by better treatment.

But an unpopular reality is that many drug addicts either do not want to or are not ready to give up.

198

bewee,

nevada 26/06/2007 15:48:59

why not start by requiring every convicted addict to spend his first year of sentencing /or a large portion thereof in a rehab program. Surely that would not cost any more than this proposal, and might save a life or two!

199

Andrew Allan,

26/06/2007 16:48:31

If drugs are given free on the NHS, that will not stop the drug takers from increasing the amount they are taking. On top of this, if there is still a market in the drugs how do you convict.

200

Allan(handofgod137),

26/06/2007 16:49:27

So why are so many of you condemming the junkie parents who neglect their kids when there are more dole monkeys who neglect the kids they had in order to get bigger handouts and a better house? At least the junkies have an excuse.

201

Miss H,

26/06/2007 17:22:06

221 I don't know - I don't support legalising all drugs.

I support GPs and other health service providers having clear guidelines which allow them to prescribe heroin and other drugs to addicts without having to apply for a specific license from the Home Office. I also support de-criminalising drug users - not drug dealers.

If in 10-15 years of this policy we still had the same problems with both organised and petty crime associated with the illegal drugs trade I would be immensely surprised.

202

eeyore,

somewhere 26/06/2007 17:29:08

Yep, what a great idea.

So now why not just pay the bank robbers cash if they promise not to rob the banks. And hand off some young maidens to the rapists if they promise not to rape randomly anymore.

This is nothing short of protection money, to be paid at the suggestion of a police officer.

To see a police officer of this man's level suggest that catering to criminals is the way to solve crime should rate his being removed from his position.

203

Miss H,

26/06/2007 17:36:12

223

Are you embarrassed to the point of mortification?

We know that the policy you support does not work - the evidence is all around us.

I read about the Brixton cannabis pilot and it is irrelevant. Where do you see a link between not charging people for being in possession of cannabis and enabling heroin on prescription?

Oliver Letwin is extremely naive incidentally if he believes that it was this pilot scheme which handed control of the estates in Brixton to drug dealers and their gangs.

They already controlled them - just as they control large parts of Glasgow and other Scottish cities.

Don't blame the police for that. The fault lies with a drugs policy which fails to recognise reality - the reality that the 'war on drugs' was lost about 30 years ago.

204

Taking a Bigot's Money,

Dundee 26/06/2007 17:45:11

"195. Miss H / 3:27pm 26 Jun 2007 190

Heroin on prescription would not result in an increase in heroin addicts. It would however result in a greatly reduced profit for drug dealers - the most effective way of combating these people is by destroying their market."

I repeat again - that still leaves a large number of people destroying their lives as well as making their families and friends (the ones they have left) a misery too.

Also prescription will only be given to exuiting users - that still leaves those who are not (yet) addicts to be targeted by the gangs and dealers.

Or are you advocating that anyone should get Heroin on prescription?

205

Andrew Allan,

26/06/2007 17:45:27

Miss H., #225.
Yes the system doesn't work, but that is because the will of the people isn't in it. It doesn't matter what government brings in in the end of the day, if the people in an area don't stop the dealing it carries on, if you give drugs on the NHS there will still be a smaller market in these drugs.

206

Taking a Bigot's Money,

Dundee 26/06/2007 17:50:00

#227 Something Miss H does not seem to understand.

207

scotsdoc,

Nanaimo BC Canada 26/06/2007 17:51:08

As I remember it there used to be a very popular and effective Cough Syrup (was it Black Currant?) that contained heroin and was available from a chemist's in the Grass Market,Edinburgh. Wee cutty pipes filled with 'Digger's Impy' tobacco had may workmen with chronic bronchitis(tuberculous?) and copious sputum. My old uncle had spitoons in his house in Selkirk for use if the fire was not handy!!
(Incidently, I was TT positive before the age of 12.)

Howard Hughes, brilliant in some ways tho' hooked on Codein, exemplifies the path of destruction that drugs can cause when freely available! I believe that codein IS STILL AVAILABLE LEGALLY IN THE UK WITHOUT A PRESCRIPTION IF YOU KNOW THE ROPES!

Control of drug use is by early and continuous education from kindergarten on!

208

Alec,

26/06/2007 17:58:37

This man can't be serious. Why should the NHS have to bear the cost of keeping these self inflicted junkies alive. Oh, I forgot, Scotland's going to go independent so the English will have to bear the tax burden. A more permanent solution in my book would be to execute the dealers and suppliers. End of problem.

209

Ian Curtis,

26/06/2007 18:03:21

Brilliant alec , unless you are wrongly convicted of course. Airse.

210

Don Juan,

26/06/2007 18:05:57

I hope they ban smoking (tabaco) completely, then I can get my faggs for free!!!

211

Alec,

26/06/2007 18:11:02

Hardly likely to be wrongly convicted Ian if you're caught with the stuff and the paraphernalia for dealing it.

212

motorcal,

michigan U.S.A. 26/06/2007 18:11:12

Maybe there is a better way.A recent study suggests that it would be much cheaper for western governments to unite and buy all the worlds heroin production where it could be bought very cheaply from the local farmers.The incurred costs,it seems,would be a lot less than the cost created by the havoc endured by most citizens and law enforcement departments .The same methods could be applied to other drugs.

213

AM2"s granny,

planet granny 26/06/2007 18:15:33

Sensible idea, glad to see people at last are starting to ask the right questions, I think we all want to control and hopefully eliminate illegal drugs, but we are burying our heads in the sand if we think more punitative legis lation will work. Basicly it comes down to economics and social questions viz, the drugs trade exists, who do we want controlling it, criminals or society at large? People seem to like getting off their heads, be it with alcohol or other drugs.Why the distiction in law. I dont think anyone in thier right mind really wants to hand control of their body over to drugs of any sort, so perhaps the solution would be to legalise drugs, but nationalise the trade, thus undercutting the dealers, and let the addicts buy their supplies at cst from registered outlets. This would have the effect of putting dealers out of business, we would be creating new addicts as there would be no incentive for anyone to sell drugs for profit, especially if the drugs were supplied on a daily basis just sufficient for the addicts' needs. Anyway why should we involve the NHS?

214

AM2"s granny,

planet granny 26/06/2007 18:18:38

Sorry Should read we would not be creating new addicts

215

Don Juan,

26/06/2007 18:18:41

Hey mates, let´s lobby for a ban on drinking, then the NHS wil become a massive free pub!!!

216

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 26/06/2007 18:35:46

Miss H wrote:
"We know that the policy you support does not work - the evidence is all around us."

If you are implying that Chairman Gordon's policy is what is happening now then you are just plain wrong.

The policy applied now is typical misplaced liberalism. Drugs on prescription is simply more of the same failed drug policy.

Such misplaced leftism has wrecked education and has seen crime greatly increase. We don't need more of it.

217

Don Juan,

26/06/2007 18:36:05

Free it all, prohibition does not work

218

Rumpletweezer,

wobbly dum dum tree 26/06/2007 18:41:24

So does this mean if I start to steal in order to fund my habit of hardcore pornography which the government censors deem illegal then some do gooder would suggest that I get my midget fisting a donkey videos for free?

Awesome please send me Bridget the Midget loves Ass 3.

219

Rumpletweezer,

wobbly dum dum tree 26/06/2007 18:42:08

So does this mean if I start to steal in order to fund my habit of hardcore pornography which the government censors deem illegal then some do gooder would suggest that I get my midget fisting a donkey videos for free?

Awesome please send me Bridget the Midget loves Ass 3.

220

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 26/06/2007 18:46:29

#240 wrote:
>>Free it all, prohibition does not work<<

I've seen plenty of 11 year olds drunk, because alcohol is available. Same with cigs. If you remove prohibition from class A drugs then you WILL see loads of 11 year old kids taking class A drugs.

Prohibition does work. It makes it less available. Better still is to get rid of leftish whiners and start executing drug dealers who destroy peoples lives.

221

Ian Curtis,

Nederland 26/06/2007 19:00:36

Jesus Christ .

Do any of you people actually look at legislation and the way drug laws work in OTHER countries before opening your stupid, ill educated fat mouths ?

222

Taking a Bigot's Money,

26/06/2007 19:11:38

#244 Some of us have direct experience of dealing with the issue - the only ill-educated people are those advocating a liberal free-for-all without seriously considering the consequences.

223

,

26/06/2007 19:33:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
224

Paulc37,

Fairfax Va. 26/06/2007 19:34:12

It is time to think out of the box as the Terrorists who wallow in drug money are seemingly only a heartbeat away.

Back up the Trucks under street lights and let the addicts go at it.

Serious Crime would have its legs cut off at the knees.

225

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 26/06/2007 19:35:45

I would opine that John Vine is talking sense. The UK could probably buy the whole of the poppy crop of Afghanastan and still save money on the NHS. And the lives of people and their families.

Take drugs out of the privateer sector.

226

AM2"s granny,

planet granny 26/06/2007 19:52:05

241 is talking bull's testicles. He does not seem to understand that once you are on drugs you have no choice but to keepm taking them . Whether he is sad enough to continue watching pornography is entirely up to him. he has free choice in the matter

227

zigzag,

Canada 26/06/2007 19:52:12

Give then enough drugs so that they can rival the Colombian Cartel which in turn will make them rich and they wont break into houses any more.

This way lets also make sure that they have a plentyful supply which they can sell on the streets at a really low price to create more addicts and so on and so on. Sounds like a plan huh!!!

My bad.

228

Rumpletweezer,

26/06/2007 19:59:56

AM2"s Granny #249

YOu have no idea do you about my addiction until you've seen a video of a sexual act involving 3 midgets a horse and 2 gallons of KY jelly you'll never understand my addiction.

Don't think that smackheads have a monopoly on addictions

229

Peter O'Loughlin,

Beckenham Kent 26/06/2007 20:32:00

Whilst I realise that the role of policing crime has changed, I was still under the impression that it was the function of serving police officers to uphold the law, and the pledge they had undertaken to do so. It would appear in this instance that is not so.

To feed drug addicts, the drugs of their choice is of course to sentence them to the slavery of addiction, death or insantiy; a nice easy cop out. Would it not be better to help those who are addicted to recover? to realise and to accept that it is possible to recover, to live a happier drug free life?

Without dwelling on the morality of that, or the morality of a society who would sign a blank cheque to keep addicts locked into the insanity of addiction,, whilst in England people suffering from cancer, Alzheimers and macular degeneration, are denied life enhancing drugs, people who advocate the practice as prescribing controlled drugs for addicts, overlook the scope for diversionery abuse.

Research on methadone prescribing, a highly addictive substitute for heroin addicts shows that the greater the availability, the greater and more wide spread the use. It follows that if we prescribe heroin for heroin addicts, we create more heroin addicts; is that what this police officer is advocating?

Many of those on methadone prescriptions, continue to use other illicit drugs such as cocaine, should we fund that as well so that the police no longer have to concern themselves with the crime that arises from its use?

Reseaarch also confirms that some of those on prescribed controlled drugs are not necessarily addicts, but simply register as such and then sell the stuff on to those addicts, who feel that the prescribed dose is insufficient for their needs.

Addictin is a progressive condition, that unless arrested requires more and more of the drug(s) involved to satisfy the needs of the user, they are no longer usiing to get a high, but just to feel 'normal'.

If the best we ca

230

fifeis great,

kirkcaldy 26/06/2007 20:34:55

Yes to this, as long as every other severe illness also gets free prescription, which at present they don't, total free care for the elderly in care homes.

231

Penquinboy,

Auckland NZ 26/06/2007 20:35:26

#247:
How do you think the CIA fund their various activities? They are one serious Coke and Herion dealership.
However to the main point of the story, legalising Herion to registered addicts was trialed here in Auckland in the late 60's or early 70's and was an unmitigated disaster, we ended the experiment quickly after we had legal junkies shooting up in public on the busses and trains in front of school children, and little old ladies etc.
In the early to mid 70's I worked with herion addicts as a counsellor (a very thankless experience) and I can concur with those who point out that addiction is a much more complex problem than many posting here realise. #209 gives a very good account of the problem of residivism and a major contributor to this is the way in which methadone is distributed, it becomes a social event for the recipients so junkies all bowl up to their clinic and meet up but pretty soon the conversation comes round to where they can score a taste and off they go. Individual addicts being treated by their GP should be the only method, and I have no direct experience of the drugs which 209 recommends but that sure sounds pretty good advice to me.

232

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 26/06/2007 20:41:59

251. Which midget get's the horse? Would that be a short back and rides, as they say in hairdresser speak?

On a more serious note, would you rather we all sympathised with you or recommended you for treatment?

233

Senga Jean,

Scotland 26/06/2007 20:44:37

Nicotine is the worst addiction to break. So it can be done. Do not confuse addiction with lifestyle choice and socialising with those who share the same grade of self pity.

234

Edinburghs only big team,

26/06/2007 21:28:09

Lock them up!

235

draoidhbubh,

26/06/2007 21:41:02

OR, we could spend a pittance (comparetively speaking) on getting to the root of the problem and eliminating it...the root of the problem being WHY they use drugs in the first place...this usage is a side effect of a deeper issue...fix that and off go the substance dependencies, along with all the other crap muddling up the mind...PERMANENTLY...(without death being any part of the picture)

Given the statistics I have available to me for dealing with the root of the problem, I would estimate the cost to be roughly 20,000-30,000 Pounds PER PERSON PER LIFETIME. It would likely cost more than that PER YEAR of tax-payers money to supply addicts with heroine in attempts to prevent crime.

just a thought

236

petrol head,

Edinburgh 26/06/2007 21:41:29

Miss H Please get real.

The reason I didn't answer you when you suggested criminalising smoking is because the question was so rediculous that it didn't warrant an answer.

If it makes you happy to see me stating the bleeding obvious... No. I don't wish to see smoking criminalised and neither do I wish to see any of the other things you mention criminalised.

Any fool knows that the substances you mention are totally benign compared to the effects of hard drugs. To attempt to classify them in anything like the same category is to act like a blinkered idiot.

Please read my post and you'll see why.

BTW: A small mistake in my last post: Mama Cass didn't die from drugs. Janis Joplin however did.

237

IainA,

Edinburgh 26/06/2007 22:15:21

So, like all online discussions we've polarised opinion into two camps.

1: Enforce the drug laws and use extreme punishments on offenders.

or

2: legalise hard drugs with some sort of NHS control

There are various degrees of extremity suggested for both sides of the argument. Unfortunately both positions are impractical financially or politically. I wonder if there are any real world compromises to be made? Not here obviously, that would spoil the fun.

238

DCO,

West Lothian 26/06/2007 22:31:16

#5 I agree if you leagalise drugs you take out the drug lords, if you then tax drugs you then get the revenue to treat the adicts, its a win win situation for the politition who is willing to introduce this to the house.

239

J. Moore,

USA 26/06/2007 22:34:45

Methadone is a heroin like drug given to addicts for free at some U.S. clinics. It has not deterred drug related crime but attracts addicts to the neighborhoods where the clinics are located. Addicts frequently sell the methadone to other users and use the money to buy their own drug of choice. Methadone has become a highly abused drug whereever it has been offered to drug users for free. Providing free drugs to addicts does not magically transform them into nice people who will no longer burden society with drug induced social ills.
Free drugs to addicts will only rerinforce the idea that it is acceptable to use dangerous mind altering drugs.
Tough drug laws need to be enforced and kids need character education at school and at home. A number of school districts in the U,S, have used this approach very successfully, reducing both the crime rates and reported drug use locally by as much as 70%. No free drugs were administered.
I don't condemn the chief for thinking outside of the box though. Law enforcement alone can not reduce drug use and drug related crime.The public simply has unrealistic expectations of what the police can do.

240

socialmedic,

USA 26/06/2007 22:57:38

#25 Nell. It is a bad comparison between alcohol and drugs - alcohol is also a very important part of cuisine and social life. People do not necessarily deliberately consume alcohol to get high. In some certain countries the food, wine, even music, art and architcture are so culturally ingrained that one part would be lessoned without the part of another. I have met children in these countries who have astounding knowledge of viticulture and even tasting whio do not have problems until they abandon the organic intellectual substance of thier heritage and birth to live in the cities and train on computers because they believe whole - heartedly in the Capitalist economic cock and bull that is being fed to them. Their heritage lost, their training obsolete they become easy prey in the urban drug cesspit.

241

Cymro,

Cymru 26/06/2007 23:08:44

In a policy vacuum where politicians do not provide any meaningful leadership it is left to senior police officers like Mr Vine to provoke public debate in order to provide a workable practical policy and strategy. He should be thanked for putting his head above the parapet.
Singapore, I am sure has its merits but it seems too conformist and authoritarian for the freedom loving Scots.
Scotsdoc (9) has a wealth of experience to inform his comments that appear to have the ring of wisdom. Many thanks.
Let's try a different policy. I cannot envisage our society worsening.

242

Nisbet,

26/06/2007 23:10:54

Good stuff next we might see a 'Cut gun crime by handing out knives' initiative.

243

Dekester,

Canada's westcoast 26/06/2007 23:15:48

#9, great reading. We have a summer place up the road from you in Q.B.

The sixty odd you spoke of are from one ethnic group, almost zero co operation from any of their "friends" or even their closest families.

The money we are talking about is massive..billions a year, yes billions of BC bud harvested annually.

Pound for pound a straight swap for coke from over the border.
Legalize the stuff, guess what the crime bosses will torch the competition, buy off the suppliers or kill them. There is just way too much cash involved now

As an aside,the real issue is not the needle, the street junkies in Vancouver East's "skid row" live on crack.

Crystal meth, and crack are the ones too watch.Why? because they are cheap, highly addictive, and the junkies love them.

The chief is right though, as is #9..Society has changed though from #9's dad's day.

All the best.

244

Drop Bear,

Australia 26/06/2007 23:40:15

Offering prescription heroin, is a very valid option and should be tried. But it needs to be offered to all addicts not just those in the criminal justice system. One of the primary benefits of this approach, aside from reduction in street crime and violence, is the opportunity to engage with addicts and address the social and psychological issues that contribute to their addiction.

This is a health problem, we should be treating people, not imprisoning them. As for the importers and dealers, throw away the key if you want. But prescribe to the addicts and both the profit and the dealers go away.

245

The Wizard,

OZ 27/06/2007 00:14:02

Have a huge police blitz rounding up the suppliers then hang them. Could be a good deterrant to others.

246

jcramer1513,

27/06/2007 00:38:53

this guy has an uphill battle but one worth fighting. His biggest problem will be combating decades of stupidity and ignorance. 3/4's of all crime is drug related so simple people make the assumption that using drugs causes crime. What people do not understand is that it is not use but the prohibition of drugs that forces addicts and dealers to victimize the rest of use. Who cares if an addict uses as long as they leave the rest of us alone. The other thing problem is that stupid people believe that supply interdiction reduces drug use and if we keep trying we will win this war, or all we have to do is lock up "dealers". 90% of "dealers" are addicts themselves selling to their friends. an addict with dope dosen't scare me, what scares me is an addict looking for money to buy dope. give the baby his bottle and leave the rest of us alone. Like most problems this one boils down to ignorance.

247

Charlie10,

United States Boston 27/06/2007 00:57:50

I go along with Alice #7
Either give them long jail sentences.Hang them.
Most are repeat offenders .They must be stoped before they kill somebody

248

zenith,

USA 27/06/2007 01:21:30

Methadone treatment in Scotland is not the failure the recent study painted it to be, because the study was laughable from the outset. If a person was still on methadone after three years and doing well, working, taking care of their responsibilities, paying their bills, and giving back to society, and free from all illicit drugs, they were considered by this study to be a treatment FAILURE because they were still taking the medication that enabled them to achieve all this! Many long term opiate addicts have done permanent damage to their brain chemistry and will never feel normal (and I mean normal--not "high" or euphoric--normal) again without an opiate on board, because their own natural opiates (endorphins) are no longer produced by the brain. Methadone enables them to function normally without the ups and downs of short acting drugs like heroin and oxycodone.

Additionally, Scotland is known the world over for severely underdosing its methadone patients. It has been shown that the MINIMUM effective dose for the vast majority of addicts is 80-120mg, and some will need much more. However, the average dose in the UK is about 30-40mg. In the US, this is the STARTING dose and is usually rapidly increased over a couple of weeks until the patient is symptom free for a full 24 hours. In the UK, however, it is common for the patient to go into withdrawals with hours left to go until their next dose, leading them to cop drugs on the street and rendering them unable to work. I have been working with a girl in the UK who wants nothing more than to get on an adequate dose to control her symptoms but her doctor refuses to listen and she suffers horribly each night. It is these poor patients who view methadone treatment as a "ball and chain" because to them, it feels like one. However, done right, MMT is the MOST effective treatment for opiate addiction available today.

249

socialmedic,

USA 27/06/2007 04:00:17

The film A Cidade de Deus should be mentioned here. Somehow the boy resists the drug rings in the favelas and winds up risking his life as a photojournalist to photograph the drug corruption that not only supplies the drugs but the deadly killing machines that fuel the wars. There are kids that want out but are not provided with a way out and end up getting killed. The profit motive is all there ... from the sales of arms to the guys who move to the top of the drug rings, clearly it is not as profitable to distrubute birth control to the mothers of potential drug lords. These people are being ruthlessly bred like cattle, exploited for profit and killed. If it works in Brazil, why not elsewhere? Maybe Brazil just has not been clever enough to hide it. As a child of the 60's some of us survived it. Some of us tried it but had no interest in it, even so. I am sure that is true of many who died in the hell holes. And not every OD is an accident. OD is an easy way to murder with no trace.

250

socialmedic,

USA 27/06/2007 04:13:00

It is a remarkable inconsitency from one article to the next where we are not willing to pay railroad workers who strike but we are willing to provide heroine addicts with drugs at any cost. We are willing to replace any man who will not take the abuse of management AND starve him to death and replace his family lines with Chinese but to keep everything cool we will tax an already taxed medical system to feed addicts with drugs? Really people need to look at news events and not be so nucleated. Most people, if they had real prospects for the future anyway would not turn to drugs. When the system that distrubutes basic needs to indivials fails that is where there are problems. The solution does not ride in some right wing Ronald Reagan mouthing the same BS Reagan did that has ultimately destoyed American society. It does not live in proving how PC we are in adopting the infinite multitudes of the starving breeding third world ... only people in the USA who were purchased by that will never admit they were drugged. But must we watch the fall of all of the civilized Western world?

251

Smokey0541,

Lakewood, Colorado U.S.A. 27/06/2007 05:23:29

Well,,,,,,Maybe a look at the U.S.s failed drug policy might help here.
The war on drugs has only caused many very serious problems. To wit: Zero tolarence laws and manditory minimum sentencing. RESULTS:there are 2.2 million incarcerated in the prison system. Both state and federal. Of that 1.725 million for drug related crimes at a cost of $29,000 per annum per inmate. Doesn't matter if you have 1 gram or 1 pound. It's basicaly the same sentence. The sentence can only go up. But never go below the Manditory Minimum.
Because of the risk involved the price of drugs is high at the street level. But there are always people willing to take the risk because a quantity buy has big discounts. Thus, huge profits for the dealer. Our mindless leaders didn't learn a thing from prohibition. The use of drugs has 2 sides to it. USE and ABUSE. Just as alcohol has or does.

I don't claim to have a answer. But one thing I do know,,,,,,,,,The War on Drugs in the U.S. is a total failure. So you have at least one example of how not to do it.

252

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 27/06/2007 05:57:41

-- What happens if drugs are legalised, and in 10-15 years it becomes clear that pro-legalisation brigade were wrong.

We'd make comparisons with previous policy for 50 years of criminalising aspects of agriculture, industry and commerce by big business and governments and think of something better.

253

socialmedic,

USA 27/06/2007 06:04:08

#274, every thing the right wing has introduced in the usa is phony, that is the point, the problem is that the left in usa has gotten NO international su[pport. that is why nobody is challenging the fascist right wing

if there had been any support from europe then USA would not presently be run by right wing thugs?? DER?

254

socialmedic,

USA 27/06/2007 06:05:50

They murdered JFK for Christs Sake!
Where were U

255

socialmedic,

USA 27/06/2007 06:07:38

#251 even if I had the misfortune to see it I would never understand it

256

socialmedic,

USA 27/06/2007 06:09:30

I think it is time for all WESTERN Countries to adopt an attiude of compassion to those from thier own countries. The third world is playing you all for fools.

257

socialmedic,

USA 27/06/2007 06:22:58

#275, I can not understand drug abuse. That was not part of the Marxist equation, nor was racism. If you ask me then those predisposed to racism and those predisposed to abusing drugs would be a factor in society. But what can these things say about usa society? Nothing. Most people in USA are alienated, totally by the young class of total fascist assholes who trash anything in the way of their procreation. They have NO sense of social responsibility they were taught by republicans to burn gas the heritage of America is total trash to these ... Nazis ... garbage, anybody with a brain has abandoned America long ago As for myself, leaving the trash to the trash

258

,

27/06/2007 07:30:26
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
259

,

27/06/2007 07:39:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
260

Malcolm Rose,

France 27/06/2007 07:43:11

I am certain that Chief Constable Vine is totally sincere, but lets not lose sight of the real problem, which is alcohol abuse.

Alcohol abuse causes 30 times as much premature death as all illegal drugs together (a rule of thumb figure from "western" countries). I believe this figure would remain similar if all self-abuse of drugs were legal and all were easily available.

Since I realised this a few years ago I have looked everywhere at drug problem situations and lo and behold, serious alcohol abuse is always in there.

What is alcohol abuse? Medical opinions I have solicited range from the standard response "over 3 standard drinks a day for a man, 2 for a woman", to the same level per week. I would add from personal observation that regular and continuous use as above is also a problem.

Q. What proportion of people who have tried a drug once later during their life are at least once physically addicted?
A. (Heroin) 25%
A. (Alcohol) 75%

It is a very difficult problem to tackle and most experts and practitioners are keeping quiet or in denial. The USA tried Prohibition 1920 to 1933 and failed miserably.

261

,

27/06/2007 08:08:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
262

Robert,

Kirriemuir 27/06/2007 08:46:19

Wonderful suggestion, then we could prescribe children to paedophiliacs, give special financial assistance to robbers, provide victims to violent offenders, and etc, all in the interest of reducing the crime rate so that the police can relax in their role and concentrate efforts say on children throwing snowballs?

263

rossthelab,

Embra! 27/06/2007 08:58:07

Er, have any of the people who oppose this suggestion noticed that the current way of doing things has not worked??
Methadone doesnt work.
Jail sentences dont work.
Its a small minded and ignorant knee jerk reaction to dismiss this idea outright.
Good work Mr Vine!!!!!

264

rossthelab,

Embra! 27/06/2007 08:59:16

Also Robert in Kirriemuir, what on earth is a paedophiliac?

265

Peter O'Loughlin,

Beckenham Kent 27/06/2007 11:52:29

I wonder if and when the police officer who floated this idea will respond to the questions I raised in my comment No.252.

Meanwhile should we consider giving cancer sufferers drugs that will spread their cancer? Because that's what this guy is proposing.

Addiction is a cancer that eats away at the brain, body, mind and spirit; keep feeding he addiction, and it progresses!

What's wrong with focusing onrecovery?according to various surveys published in Drink and Drug news, 70% of those who are addicted, want to become drug free. Meanwhile this police officer and the politicians seem hell bent on keeping them locked into their miserable and desolate existence. Wonderful! The inmates are now running the asylum.

266

MickyFinn,

Central scotland 27/06/2007 19:07:12

Why not legalise you could have the addict on a program to ween them off. No worry for overdose or contamination as drug will be pure. companies already produce for the health service.
Just think no more druggies running amok breaking into everything trying to feed the habit. the police can get rid off these gangsters and take out the bigger fish etc.

267

MickyFinn,

Central scotland 27/06/2007 19:09:39

However how about an extreme method
Solve the drug problem Part 1:
Legalise. If doesn't work
Part 2:
Give it pure
"one last hit"!

268

zenith,

USA 28/06/2007 00:06:30

Weaning addicts off opioid drugs is not always a feasible solution. Unlike robbery, pedophilia, gambling, etc we are ALL "opiate addicts" in the sense that we ALL have opiate receptors in the brain and require a certain level of natural opiates (endorphins) to function properly and to be able to experience normal happiness and pleasures. Many of these addicts have done permanent damage to the system that produces this chemical, and without exogenous opioid supplementation (methadone or buprenorphine) they are almost certain to relapse due to the misery and agony of life without pleasure, and of severe depression. Opiates are a naturally occurring substance in our bodies and this fact makes opiate abuse and addiction different from many other drugs of abuse.


 

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