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Heart scanner gifted by RBS raises fear of two-tier NHS

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Published Date: 27 May 2008
PRIVATE donations of health equipment used by the NHS should be subject to guidelines amid fears of a two-tier service, an MSP has urged.
It follows the gifting of one of the world's best scanners to Edinburgh by Royal Bank of Scotland. RBS staff will have access to the machine for 25 per cent of the time, but NHS Lothian insisted that did not mean bank workers would get preferential treatment.

But Margo MacDonald, the independent MSP for the Lothians, plans to raise the question of conditional gifts at Holyrood.

The Aquilion One scanner, bought for the Queen's Medical Research Institute (QMRI) and NHS Lothian by part of the £4 million donation, will be helping to diagnose heart problems by the end of the year.

Professor Allyson Pollock, a public health expert, yesterday said the deal undermined the principles of equal access to NHS services.

However, NHS Lothian rejected her claims, saying no NHS patient would be disadvantaged by the RBS allocation. It added that without the funding, the scanner would not be coming come to Scotland at all.

The £1.6 million scanner can capture images of organs in just 0.35 seconds. The QMRI will use it – the first to come to the UK – to research conditions such as heart disease. It will be used to carry out an extra 4,000 scans on NHS patients a year.

But while the institute and NHS Lothian will benefit from 75 per cent of the scanner's capacity, around 25 per cent will be used by RBS as part of its health-screening programme for staff.

Ms Macdonald said she would be laying a motion in Holyrood that would recognise the generosity of RBS, but also call for further discussions. "I think it would be better to debate this in parliament and work out if there are any ground rules that are needed for possible donations in the future," she said.

Dr Jean Turner, of the Scottish Patients Association, welcomed the fact that the scanner was coming to Scotland, but said it was a "gift with strings".

Dr Charles Swainson, the medical director of NHS Lothian, said categorically that no NHS patients would be disadvantaged because of the deal with RBS. He said the scanner would be used for research and no NHS money would be used to fund it for the first five years. "I don't think it is unreasonable for a major donor to ask for something back for its staff so long as it does not compete with the NHS, which in this case it doesn't," he said.

The Scottish Conservatives said the RBS donation was welcome and would improve the treatment of patients. Mary Scanlon, the health spokeswoman, said: "It is churlish to pass judgment on RBS for a generous donation – pure ideology at its worst."

Nicola Sturgeon, the health secretary, said: "The RBS gift will be a major additional resource to the NHS, which would not otherwise be available."

A spokeswoman for RBS said it would have access to around 1,000 scans a year for its 100,000 staff in the UK. She added:

"This will only be provided to those who qualify under criteria for heart screening."

Opening door to corporate control?

DONATIONS "with strings" will become increasingly common as the NHS enters a more stringent financial period, opening the door to corporate control over public services, experts warned yesterday.

Professor Allyson Pollock, a public health doctor and head of the Centre for International Public Health Policy at the University of Edinburgh, said:

"If RBS staff are going to get access to a quarter of the capacity of this scanner then that goes against equal access for equal need.

Some people are going to have better access to the scanner than others based on ability to pay because RBS has bought out time."

She added that "philanthropy with strings" presented "a real risk that the underlying principles of the NHS are disrupted".

"We must keep the principle of the NHS being free at the point of need and based on equal access. If this scanner is an NHS priority, then it is the NHS that should fund it," she said.

Professor David Miller, of Strathclyde University, said corporations were exerting creeping control over government and public services which would lead to "the undermining of democracy".

"This is part of the attempt to control and destroy public services," he warned. "There is no mechanism for people to vote against corporations. It's direct corporate rule. We should be concerned."

Marc Lawn, a business expert based in Cambridgeshire, said the RBS funding could be about "corporations abusing power" but he did not believe this was the case.

He said the government had "made little secret" of its intention that the NHS would eventually run like a corporation and this was a move towards that.

Alan Maynard, professor of health economics at York University, agreed it was likely the NHS would engage in similar deals which would present "clear social choices".

"People have to come to terms with these kind of choices. It will obviously create moral and ideological dilemmas," he said.

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 26 May 2008 9:53 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Health of the NHS
 
1

The Strategist,

27/05/2008 00:35:57
It is ironic that in the 80s when Aberdeen University - having developed the world's first commercial MRI system - was trying to raise a few £m to build MRI machines in Aberdeen the Scottish banks inc RBS refused to put up the funding and the technology had to be licenced to the Japanese.
2

,

27/05/2008 00:38:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
3

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 27/05/2008 01:05:03

#2, "I'd be concerned as to exactly why RBS want me to have a heart scan."

To dammed Right!

But lets hope it was in,.."Good Cause" as I am sure it was.

Now back to the,..'Sress Related Work'.
4

Edward,

27/05/2008 01:39:53
There seems to be confusion here. On earlier news reports, the impression was given that the machine was not part of a donation, but was a machine bought by RBS, which they will use to scan staff members, but there would be 75% spare capacity, which they have gifted to the NHS
But in this story they only made a donation and its the NHS who have purchased the machine
5

W Smith,

Middle East 27/05/2008 03:57:01
Does Professor David Miller have problems with Osama Saeed who said mulsims are "better served" by pressure groups rather then trusting western democracy?

I guess not.

Its not RBS who are pushing for Sharia Law now is it Dave?
6

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 27/05/2008 07:07:12
#4
You are right. The whole tenor of yesterday's article was that the RBS has bought the machine, is using 25% of the time and is gifting the rest to the NHS.

This nonsense about a two-tier NHS or threat to create one is exactly that. Yesterday I wrote that there is a three-tier, not two-tier system already in place viz. those who are private clients who use NHS facilities, those who have private or corporate provision and thus pick and mix with the NHS and finally those who rely on basic NHS services.

What the idealogues don't seem to realise is that they could discourage any further initiatives of this type. As things stand with this gift, people who would not have had any chance of access to facilities of this type will now get a service which has been enhanced and more effective than the existing facilities.

Given that politicians have mismanaged the NHS since its very inception, throwing money into a black hole without ever making sure the maximum return was being provided for each pound, they are in no position to criticise initiative of this type.

The solution to most of the NHS woes would be to remove it from direct political control and make it totally accountable for all of its expenditure. It would be painful but within a decade or so it would become much more effective.

7

Jamie Bates,

Edinburgh 27/05/2008 07:12:30
This gesture is not in the spirit of the kind of philanthropy that Scotland is famous for. 25% is way too much of a go for them to have on their new piece of kit. That means one in four people that go through that scanner will be RBS workforce. Sounds like RBS is pretty sick to me if they can’t see that this kind of thing is a step too far. If it comes to the crunch I guess they’ll get away with this though, but surely they won’t get a disproportionate amount of NHS staffing time along with an unfair quarter of all the other resources that are used in conjunction with the scanner. That would be like me walking into casualty with my own bandages and asking to be served first. I think they should get to use the scanner more but it should be operated by their own staff.
8

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 27/05/2008 07:16:21
Every employer has a duty of care to its employees. Obviously a large employer such as RBS has many more employees than most, the greatest majority are sedentary and at more risk of the associated diseases. Buying a machine of this type is a logical step to ensure employees have access to good medical care.

A purchase of this type is a mere bagatelle to a company of this size. They should be lauded for making the surplus time available to the NHS rather than the NHS having to buy the extra time. Remember the NHS routinely buys time and facilities from the private health sector to meet its targets.

Imagine the furore if large companies were to purchase machines of this type purely for the use of their own employees and then it was discovered that these machines were lying idle for 75% of the time in an RBS health centre. I imagine the politicians would be screaming to the heavens, demanding that the surplus time be donated to the NHS for needy people.
9

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 27/05/2008 07:25:10
Actually, there is a fourth category. Do you think for one minute that Gordon Brown, any mainline politician or celebrity would be left sitting for hours on a trolley in a corridor in an overstretched casualty department.

#7
I think you'll find the NHS has nothing to pay at all for the first five years. If you read the article properly you'll see the scanner is costing the RBS £1.6 million and they are also paying the additional £2.4 million for its running costs. That more than takes care of your comment I think.

10

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 27/05/2008 07:41:56
#10 Right on Dave. The only problem about your analysis - we won't get any saving passed back to us as taxpayers, just an increase in what we pay.

I'm generally sick of chippy, mealy-mouthed attitudes in this country.

I think it was either Boswell or Johnson who said "It is never difficult to tell the difference between a ray of sunshine and a Scotchman with a grievance"

11

it has always been allan,

27/05/2008 07:45:19
What would be your learned coments if RBS said ok well if it is going cause litlle people to argue, why don't we just scrub the ideaa and pay for all our staff to have a private scan.

After all they probably get a company BUPA offer anyway
12

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 27/05/2008 07:49:47
#13
That was implicit in my post #8 I feel. I wouldn't blame any company who took one look at this pathetic sniping and confined their efforts totally to 'in-house' provision of medical services. As you say BUPA or other providers are more than happy to deliver corporate schemes.

13

1745,

Edinburgh 27/05/2008 08:00:14
Allyson Pollock and Margo Macdonald should be ashamed of their thinking.
Well done RBof S a generous gesture of which we see so few these days.
14

Unimpressed one,

27/05/2008 08:23:17
#6, Well said. Shame on the media and the usual political suspects on encouraging us to bite the hand that feeds them.
15

James1480,

USA 27/05/2008 08:26:50
Maybe RBS should stick the next one one a ship in international waters and ferry their people out to it.
Their ball, their rules. Stuff that in your socialist/commie pipe and smoke it.
16

thinking,

Scotland 27/05/2008 08:45:19
I do not understand the attitude of some posters.
Here is a company handing us a gift of 75% use of a machine which they are buying. This will save lives and not cost the taxpayer anything yet some of you are carping on that we should have 100% use of it. Why?
Would you rather the machine wasn't there to save lives or would you rather the taxpayer paid for it? Me, I am not going to say no to such a generous gift. You never know, I might need use of it some day!!!
17

North Enclosure ER,

HUNGERFORD 27/05/2008 08:47:21
Could the priority use be extended to RBS customers who put the money into the bank?
18

JohnBowes,

glasgow 27/05/2008 08:47:46
This whole story seems very "confusing".

So, bank workers will not get preferential treatment? BUT 1/4 people who get the benefit of it will be bank workers? Am I missing something?

I quote; "He said the scanner would be used for research and no NHS money would be used to fund it for the first five years".

BUT who operates it and examines images and so on? Surely there is a cost to the NHS? If RBS staff get access befor others - they will surely be treated and so on before others. They are surely jumping the list. How can anybody say otherwise?

SURELY, its no just about a scanner - its got to be about treatment. Yes, who gets the treatment FIRST. Surely these workers will be jumping the list? How can anybody say otherwise?

RBS have been very generous? With whose money? How do banks make their dosh? THINK about it.

As for 25 percent of capacity going to them - that is FAR too much. If it was 10 to 15 percent I could possibly accept the idea BUT not 25 percent. Will the RBS be paying for the operators of this machine when their staff get the use of it? Will they be paying for the doctors and nurses who deal with their staff?

A gift? Its like me giving YOU ten quid in the understanding I get something back. BUT in monetary terms what are THEY getting back? So, what are they REALLY gifting?
19

JohnBowes,

27/05/2008 08:51:44
I give generously to a hospice. BUT I don't do so in the understanding that I and my family get in it if anything unfortunate happens. Do people grasp that?

The money they are putting in allows for jumping of lists.
20

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 27/05/2008 09:22:49
At times I truly despair.

#20
Nothing confusing if you can read English. The RBS pays £1.6. million to buy the scanner and a further £2.4 to cover its running costs for five years. Point made ?

#21 and others of that ilk
Get real. A scanner that would not have been bought otherwise is being provided. 75% of its time is being gifted to the NHS with running costs being provided by the RBS. People who would have had to wait or receive a lower quality of scan are going to receive a higher quality of service, saving lives.

Jumping lists ? Well, just suppose RBS bought the scanner and gave a similar endowment to a private health foundation on similar terms; where is the benefit to NHS patients ? Alternatively, they pay for a private health provider to give the service; again, where is the benefit for NHS patients ?

As I pointed out earlier there are already FOUR levels of health care involving NHS facilities inthis country. The RBS solution is pragmatic, involving as it does, a facility for research (serves the greater good), health care for RBS employees (meeting their duty of care requirements) and enhanced facilities for the NHS (it isn't there and wouldn't be there if it were not for the RBS).

People like you carping on could create a climate where large companies simply provide the services for their own employees quietly, without publicity and to no benefit for the greater good. I hope you're comfortable with that possibility.
21

lilly3,

edinburgh 27/05/2008 09:31:25
What a nation of whingers, this scanner would not be in Scotland if RBS had not paid the money for it, therefore no one could use it. RBS could have used the money and given it to staff in another way.
Why do you scots put down the one successful organisation that employs 1,000s of people, is fantastic for the economy etc..
If I were in a position in RBS to make these donations etc, I would ask myself why bother, just let you guys moan and groan about the state of the NHS and forget about progress and forward thinking..
Maybe you guys should go make a difference in the world if you can instead of sitting moaning about RBS!!
22

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 27/05/2008 09:32:16
Finally a point for the aggrieved. You may not have noticed but the throughput of the new scanner is much higher than the existing scanners with a lower accumulated radiation dosages.

In itself, this alone should have a significant impact upon waiting lists as patients are dealt with faster, more accurate diagnoses made and quicker treatment. But then I suppose you wouldn't be convinced by any argument. It won't matter to you that patients in the NHS are receiving better faster treatment as a result of this initiative.
23

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 27/05/2008 09:38:21
Also, remember this. Every single person who has private health insurance is going to be able to jump NHS waiting lists at need.

Would you be happy to wait two or three years for even a minor operation to treat a painful condition just to satisfy your obsession with waiting lists if there was a viable alternative that provided treatment in a few weeks ? I suffered for nearly four years; my child has a similar condition - having corporate insurance means he will only wait a fortnight for the same operation.
24

Red Tower,

Dunoon 27/05/2008 09:42:36
Should we not just look on the 75% scanner time as part of NHS resources and allocate this time to the most urgent cases Scotland-wide.
25

Yorkie.,

Yorkshire 27/05/2008 09:54:13
I can hardly believe what I am reading...stop whining
Scotland. Send this wonderful piece of technology down to any hospital in Yorkshire and we will thank the Royal Bank of Scotland with all our hearts.
26

Yorkie.,

Yorkshire 27/05/2008 09:55:25
I can hardly believe what I am reading...stop whining
Scotland. Send this wonderful piece of technology down to any hospital in Yorkshire and we will thank the Royal Bank of Scotland with all our hearts.
27

,

27/05/2008 09:57:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
28

Green,

Dundee 27/05/2008 10:01:58
RBS should just put their back into paying their taxes.

If RBS thinks the NHS does not have the resources to provide a standard of medical care that it thinks necessary for their staff, why are they not campaigning for a huge crackdown on corporate tax dodges, which are costing billions per year, and campaigning for higher taxes on businesses?

These businesses need the structure and social care that government and taxes provide to be able to operate and make a profit. Try Russia where there is no proper state function and businesses all have a 'roof' i.e. a local gangster gang they pay protection money to, to make sure they can operate and protect themselves from others. And bribery is necessary to get decent medical treatment in the local hospitals.

Oh, sounds familiar!
29

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 27/05/2008 10:03:58
Now there's a thought. Locate the scanner in Newcastle Royal (I assuming there's a Royal Infirmary there) and listen to all of the howling from Scotland ! That would teach the graceless mealy-mouthed brigade.

Unfortunately it would leave the RBS open to charges of neglecting its country of origin and headquarters. They'd never let that happen.

However, it might just strangle any other such intiative by the RBS or other large companies.
30

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 27/05/2008 10:11:27
From what I've seen, the RBS not only pay their taxes but a seriously large wedge per annum. They are obliged BY LAW to exercise a duty of care to their (largely sedentary) employees. They have used an ingenious ssolution which benefits the NHS. They would have had to spend money on duty of care projects anyway. Who knows, it may even be wholly or partially tax-deductible.

Obviously they have recognised a fundamental truth about the NHS. Money poured in indiscriminately has little real effect. Too much goes into wages and administration so there is little real improvement.

On the other hand, targeted aid can be highly effective. In this case, at no cost to the NHS for five years.
31

Publius,

Girvan 27/05/2008 10:16:13

#30 Green
You're right on.

#23 Lilly 3
Lilly you're wrong. You write "this scanner would not be in Scotland if RBS had not paid the money for it". The RBS would be dead and buried if (a) the taxpayers (i.e. all of us) had not bailed out all the banks a few weeks ago with a £50 billion stand by credit and (b) RBS had not gone cap in hand to its shareholders (i.e the pension funds - yours and mine savings for pensions) for more capital.

This whole deal stinks. It cuts right across the whole civic culture of Scotland. Think of the leagues of friends of hospitals who gift all kinds of equipment to hospitals believing that this equipment will be used on the basis of need, not who you work for. Think of Burns: 'a man's a man for a' that'.

Shame on the RBS. And shame on Nicola Sturgeon for accepting such a 'gift'. I'll never believe the SNP's talk of 'civic Scotland' and 'civic nationalism' again.





32

Red Tower,

Dunoon 27/05/2008 10:23:53
Given the limitations that we all have placed on NHS provision we unfortunately can only see Healthcare for all as an aspiration rather than an achievable goal. We dont want to pay the taxes necessary to run such a service. We have allowed private healthcare to run in parallel and hence allowed the most vocal people, the movers and shakers, in society to opt out of the system etc.

There are alternatives of course. In Cuba the goal has been achieved. But the price that has been paid is poor housing and inadequate transport, both private and public. This is a price that we, pampering ourselves as we do, would find intolerable.

And so we shall just have to chug along with our hotch-potch of a system and just accept help from whatever source we can and try and distribute its benefits as fairly as possible.
33

Logie Almond,

27/05/2008 10:49:27
This story has been created by the appalling spin given by the BBC to what should be a good news story. Allyson Pollock is an ideologically driven motormouth Trot who can be relied to comment unfavourably on any private sector involvement in the Health Service, even one as benign as this and, I'm afraid, Margo MacDonald has allowed herself to be chivvied by the BBC reporter into raising this in the Parliamnet even though she admits it is a good scheme. Oh for the days when media reported news stories rather than manufacture them.
34

urban poacher,

Edinburgh 27/05/2008 10:53:21
good to see all the old labour whingers crawling out from under their stones. NHS gets its use for free not ideal but this is the real world. With their pie eating heavy drinking culture old labour are the people most in need of it.
35

Marcus Fenix,

The Valley 27/05/2008 10:54:58
Stop moaning or RBS will simply say that they are keeping it for themselves. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
36

ARP,

Scotland 27/05/2008 10:55:28
Whose money paid for this? There are four stakeholders in RBS - staff, customers, shareholders and taxpayers - wages, charges, dividends and taxes. They paid for it.

Sponsorship is cheap publicity paid for by these four groups. I believe that all forms of sponsorship, even to 'good causes' should be outlawed. While top management was looking for honours for their use of other people's money, their business was falling apart under their noses.

They would get more credit were they to run an efficient and effective bank.
37

cataibh,

Bo'ness 27/05/2008 10:58:47
OK tell the RBS forget the idea and put the scanner into a private hospital.
38

!Ya basta!,

27/05/2008 11:01:32
I agree, Prester, Lilly and Guga are all wrong.

The problem here is that public health is becoming increasingly reliant on private philanthropy or worse, private profit, because it is now so badly organised.

It's a sorry sorry situation in 2008 when a piece of necessary medical equipment needed by the community has to be provided by a private company. We should not need or rely on private patronage. It smacks of a kind of "thnaks Guv, much obliged" attitude that should have disappeared at least 100 years ago.

It shows
a)the terrible state and low status of public health provision in Scotland
and
b)the obscene dominance of private corporate wealth in public life.

And if anybody believes RBS are doing this becasue they care, look at your bank charges, ask a student about her/his loan repayments etc. etc., and wake up.

I should think RBS have already repaid the cost of the scanner in free PR associated with this whole affair. And I also wouldn't be at all surprised if this type of act isn't getting them some behind the scenes concessions with our politicians. And please let's not pretend we are not corrupt in this regard.

Remember, there is no such thing as a free scanner.
39

Venachar,

27/05/2008 11:13:15
What did Carnegie get for all his philanthropy? SFA!

What on earth is wrong with the majority of posters on this article? This is an extra facility over and above that currently in the NHS system. It is being funded for five years by RBS. In five years time it will be replaced by something else in all probability.
One or more of these units would probably come into the system in a year or two time. RBS just made it come earlier.
We just about lead the world in statistics for heart disease. If this helps to make our doctors and scientists better and save more lives in the future the the dogmatists can stick their heads where the sun don't shine.

What people should be asking is do we have competent people to staff the thing?
40

lilly3,

Edinburgh 27/05/2008 11:25:01
Free PR!! Thats a laugh!! PR is a complete waste of money for RBS in Scotland when you guys can see no good in anything that they or anyone else does in this country!
Answer this - if you are told by a Doctor that you or maybe a sick child of yours will need one of these scans will you say no because of your so called principals!!! I don't think so!!
If you guys had your way we would still be living in the dark ages!!
41

it has always been allan,

27/05/2008 11:44:26
when I had cancer I went through a scanner and I remember noticing that it had been provided by a charitable group.

Otherwise I would not be here to read some of the critical posts.
42

!Ya basta!,

27/05/2008 11:48:07
Lilly, you are deluded lackey.

Of course nobody is going to refuse treatment for their child in that situation. But you are completely missing the point. In the long run, relying on philanthropy or private profit ultimately destroys the public health system (look at the US system) and then there is poor service for everyone except the rich who will always be able to afford treatment. When times get hard, philanthropy will dry up and then where will we be? The real underlying agenda here is private profit in healthcare. How can you not see that?

Also, RBS are doing this to buy political credit, not to be nice, do not doubt that for a second. They are bank for chrissakes.

And finally, we are not living in the past, we actually want a better future and know when we are being conned.
43

!Ya basta!,

27/05/2008 11:51:41
#39 Excellent idea, I agree, that's where it belongs.
44

scunnin,

Germany 27/05/2008 11:54:56
Did I miss it? I would like to see what the strings are ..
45

,

27/05/2008 11:57:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
46

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 27/05/2008 12:31:09
A point that seems to have slipped by. Look at the number of pieces of equipment provided by charities and committed fund-raisers. I don't remember any of the various 'nay-sayers' raising their doctrinaire little heads to complain all of the extra equipment from these sources.

For the nay-sayers, you might, just might, care to reflect that the NHS could have every possible penny raised by taxation spent on it and it would still not be enough. No one denies nurses and doctors are good and that there are pockets of excellence in the NHS. However, it could be so much better.

The NHS suffers from gross inefficiency despite ludicrous amounts of 'resources' thrown at it. Ironically, some of the most inefficient investment has come during the various periods of Labour administration.

As long as politicians retain direct overall control of the NHS, it is doomed to remain inadequate and barely fit for purpose.
47

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 27/05/2008 12:41:18
I would also have to question the attitude and values of someone who would rather see the scanner go into a private hospital, leaving ordinary patients to use a slower, less efficient scanner in the public system. Hardly caring for your fellow human beings is it ?

48

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 27/05/2008 13:03:04
#50:

Unfortunately, that would be quite likely to happen in the future if they insist on playing political correctness with this issue.

Let's face it, if you had just bought a new car and volunteered to ferry old ladies too and from church on sunday, would it be fair if some politician took issue with the fact that you weren't available to do the same on thursdays? Of course it wouldn't. The same principle applies.
49

Geomac 1,

Scotland 27/05/2008 13:11:18
Well done to the RBS - I now have a greater chance of getting a heart scan! Forget the socialist inspired dogma/idealism - just think of the 3-4000 patients who will benefit from this scanner!

#39 and #46 - I fail to see the benefit of your suggestion to the public, who can't afford to pay for medical treatment. That would be cutting off your nose to spite your face!
50

Luke Skywalker,

United Kingdom 27/05/2008 13:21:10
#30 RBS does pay its taxes. I suggest that the government should consider increasing the road tax on the polluting 4x4's and the large cars which jointly contribute to some of the heart problems we now have. If these rich car owners paid their morally due taxes we would not need to rely on charitable donations. Thank you RBS.
51

lilly3,

Edinburgh 27/05/2008 13:53:53
Ya Basta, I am not a deluded lackey!!
You are the one, who is complaining about this scanner, and trying to find hidden agenda it it, but when it comes to using it - you would be first in line if you had to!! I rest my case!! Go find something else to moan about..
Banks are banks and there are alot of banks taking our money, fees etc and doing nothing back for the community in return!
52

Smutley,

Embra 27/05/2008 13:54:11
Lots of predictable spite on this thread...

It's absolutely right that there should be a debate about this.

Some key facts are missing though.

Benefits: what are the actual clinical benefits of these machines? Will they save lives? How many? Will they save costs elsewhere? How much?

Costs: what are the direct and indirect costs of having these machines (staff time, training, opportunity costs of diverting clinical time, etc)? How much will actually be met by the donation? What will the ongoing costs be for donor and for the NHS?

If the benefits outweigh the costs, then go for it I say. But these need to be made clear and not just waved through on the nod.
53

Moder8,

EDINBURGH 27/05/2008 13:54:42
I see that Lyndsay Moss and Lindsay McIntosh are being groomed to fit in with the Scotsmans policy of anti RBS reporting at every opportunity. What is it that the Scotsman has against this major player in the financial world who still have their Head Office in Edinburgh, who employ about 6000 people in the area, who support Edinburgh, sports, charities etc.
What is your problem Scotsman Editor?
54

Smutley,

Embra 27/05/2008 13:56:46
Note that new screening technologies like this have a habit of identifying underlying disease which WON'T go on to cause clinical harm.

So you will end up treating people unnecessarily as well as (presumably, though we don't know how many), saving lives and/or preventing disease.
55

Venachar,

27/05/2008 15:24:02
#45 Ya basta

I was not born in 1948, but shortly after that. Do you know how health services worked before that?

Charitable status and philanthropy etc. Great Ormond Street hospital still advertise on the cable channels for donations. What is the difference between an individual paying £3 per month and an extremely large and rich company making a gift of £4 million? Nothing apart from scale.

Gifts such as this will never overcome the current status. Your taxes may have to go up for you to get what you want in the future. However if that were to happen your opportunity to express your view would be at the ballot box. If you want to complain about RBS then please do so in regard to their sponsorship of F1 motor racing which is a complete waste of time rather than running a piece of medical equipment which will benefit your own countrymen and women and medical science.
56

John Blackley,

Florida 27/05/2008 15:58:43
The problem here isn't the scanner - or who gets to use it when and for what purpose. The problem here is politicians with too much time and too litte to do.

Honestly! The NHS has just been gifted 4,000 scans a year that it didn't have the capability to do before. So what if the donor wants to reserve time on it?

Instead, we have a professional gabber, desperate for a cause, yearning to make an 'ishoo' out of it and thereby justify her taxpayer-funded lifestyle.

So how does one justify that? Easy, throw out the old bait of 'two-tier NHS' and wait the the slavering dogs to go chasing after it, yapping all the way. (Because there is a certain type of person who'll still buy that nonsense - despite there being more 'tiers' in the NHS already than there are on the Tower of Pisa.)
57

Smutley,

Embra 27/05/2008 16:27:36
I just did a search on PubMed and various other sources and could find no definitive research on the benefits of these types of scans. Plenty of mention of "false positives" though.

So those "3-4,000 additional scans" are of debatable clinical usefulness.

What this story then becomes is one about research, because there's definitely potential for these machines to help in the future. We just don't yet know how much.

Meantime, the cardiologists get a new toy to play with; the manufacturers get their product tested (and get paid for it!); the RBS staff, eyeing their blood pressure and personal family histories, get state-of-the-art scans.

Everbody's happy, especially the manufacturer's shareholders.

Although we're not clear at all what the NHS is getting out of this, it is quite right that it participate in this sort of research. This sort of arrangement needs to be looked at, of course, to ensure there are no conflicts of interest.
58

knight,

aberdeen 27/05/2008 17:00:13
what would Margo MacDonald rather have 75% usage of the scanner or 100% of nothing.

the thing with these machines is that they will sit idle for long periods of time after 5pm till 9am and weekends

RBS could get it all the time at weekend and that for working people could be a great help
59

cataibh,

Bo'ness 27/05/2008 17:56:47
With headlines like this no wonder the Scotsman is on the way out.
60

Bikefast,

UNOwhere 27/05/2008 19:33:12
I cannot understand what all the flak is about. RBS have gifted a scanner to NHS with a 25% usage string attached and they have also agreed to contribute to the running costs for five years. Let us be very thankful that we can at least get access to this wonderful machine for 75% of the time. 75% is infinitely better than 0%. For goodness sake grow up and accept the gift gracefully.
61

subrosa,

27/05/2008 19:37:31
Seems to be lots of posts which translate this article in different ways. From what I've read the RBoS have given Edinburgh a scanner costing £1.6m and are funding the research, for which it will also be used, for 5 years.

They don't seem to be funding any of the staffing costs for its operation and they have a 25% claim on usage. Not particularly as splendid a gift all in all.

£1.6m is a drop in the ocean to the NHS. Why didn't we buy it ourselves? Then the RBoS could pay for the use of the service and the people would own the machine without any private company having priority. If you believe the RBoS won't have priority then you'll believe anything.
62

it has always been allan,

27/05/2008 21:09:27
The larger part of these posts are made by scottish winkers
63

!Ya basta!,

28/05/2008 02:45:09
#49 Prester - there is a key difference between donatons from charities and those from private companies. Charities do not have a hidden agenda either generally to erode public health care or more specifically for whatever their cause may be (i.e. buying political credits, some othe profit-related motive). However, both are unacceptable really because it merely shows that we fail to fund and organsie public health systems effectively. It is better to solve this fundamental problem rather thna rely on donations.

#45 Venachar - I want a health service fit for 2008 not a pre-1948 one. The NHS is a great idea, I just wish politicians would stop playing games with it and fund it fully and organise it properly. And if I pay more tax for it, no problem.

#54 Lilly, you don't seem have a case to rest hen.

#Some earlier post re socialist dogma. This is no more socialist dogma. Even the WHO do not recommend privatisation of health care (leave that to another bank, The World Bank). There is no private health system anywhere in the world that works, all they do is cream the top of the public systems and worse undermine the latter. Look at the state of US helathcare. All I am asking for is a publically funded health system that meets the needs of patients. The coporate system works well in many areas of life but not health care and its a damn shanme we seem to have lowered our expectations so much that we accept the continued erosion and degradation of services and the over-reliance on charity.

 

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