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Catholic leaders block contraceptive advice for 30,000 Scots girls

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Published Date: 17 August 2008
A VACCINE against cervical cancer will be given to schoolgirls without them receiving any safe sex advice as a result of a controversial deal struck between the Catholic Church and health officials, Scotland on Sunday can reveal.
From next month, 12 and 13-year-old girls at all schools in the country will start receiving the jab in a bid to cut deaths from cervical cancer caused by the human papilloma virus (HPV), which can be passed on during sex.

The Catholic Church originally raised objections to the jab on the grounds it could encourage promiscuity, but has made a U-turn after reaching an agreement with health and education bosses.

The deal means girls getting the HPV jab will not receive any accompanying advice on the need to use condoms to protect themselves from other sexually transmitted diseases.

Health campaigners and parents' groups last night reacted angrily to the deal, warning that the sexual health of thousands of young Scottish women was being put at risk to avoid a moral backlash from the Catholic Church.

Many sexual health experts believe it is essential to give out safe sex advice alongside the jab to make it clear they will remain at risk from other STIs including HIV, chlamydia and gonorrhea. More than half of the 5,000 female chlamydia patients in Scotland last year were under the age of 20.

The vaccine has been shown in trials to be highly effective in stopping cervical cancer caused by HPV if given to girls before they start sexual activity. Such cancers account for about 70% of cases of cervical cancer, which claims about 100 lives in Scotland every year.

When the decision to give the jab was announced by ministers in August 2006, a spokesman for Cardinal Keith O'Brien warned it could be seen by pre-teenage girls as a "green light" for sexual activity.

The programme is due to start next month and schools are set to send out consent forms for the scheme from the beginning of September.

The Catholic Church has now decided it will back the programme, with the jabs being available in its own schools. Spokesman Ronnie Convery revealed: "We have been in fruitful discussion with the health and education authorities, and we are satisfied that the programme to be rolled out across the country now is a responsible and ethically appropriate one."

Director of the Scottish Catholic Education Service (SCES) Michael McGrath added: "We wanted to make sure any support materials were appropriate in the Catholic schools, and we didn't want HPV and cervical cancer to be linked with artificial contraception. The factual information about the vaccine and cervical cancer are still there, but it doesn't promote particular kinds of sexual behaviour. We had discussions about it, we looked at various forms of words and came to an agreement. It took some months."

Scotland on Sunday has examined the leaflets going out to schoolgirls who receive the jab and there is no mention of using condoms to protect against other STIs.

A spokeswoman for the Family Planning Association (FPA) said it was a missed opportunity. Chief executive of the FPA Julie Bentley said: "The HPV vaccination will only protect young women from two strains of HPV leading to cervical cancer. It is critically important that young people understand the need to use condoms to protect them from other STIs."

Scotland Patients' Association chairwoman Margaret Watt said: "This message should be highlighted and underlined – please remember this injection doesn't protect you from sexually transmitted diseases or becoming pregnant."

Justine Roberts, co-founder of Mumsnet, said parents would be annoyed by the omission. She said: "The moral position is being imposed upon them. It seems a bit archaic to let the Catholic Church decide on this."

A Scottish Government spokesperson said: "The HPV vaccine is about saving lives and protecting future generations of young girls from cervical cancer.

"Scottish Government officials consulted with many stakeholders and undertook research with parents and girls to ensure the right level of information was included in the leaflet. The Scottish Government is absolutely committed to promoting safer sex, and we are taking forward our sexual health strategy 'Respect and Responsibility'."


Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 17 August 2008 12:59 AM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Roman Catholic church
 
1

Conan the Librarian™,

17/08/2008 00:06:36
Young Catholic girls never have sex, the priests told them not to.

Why the hell are we still kowtowing to relegion in the 21st century?
2

,

17/08/2008 00:13:36
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3

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 17/08/2008 00:16:38

This soo called 'jab' is a brainwashing experiment yet again on the female sex!

Before I give more opinion, please read this from our poster Em, which is the 'REAL TRUTH' we are NOT Told!!,

With regard to the cervical cancer jab, the vaccine has been proven ineffective in preventing HPV, contrary to what many beleive to be true it does nothing to eradicate the virus from women who already have it. and the FDA have even revised their previous understanding and stated that they now know that cervical cancer is not directly caused by HPV. In the vast majority of cases HPV goes away by itself without the need for medical intervention.
It is well known by medical professionals that HPV occurs in almost all women who are sexually active, however, vaccinating women who already have HPV has been found to increase the risk of developing high grade precancerous lesions by 44.6%
In other words, if the vaccine is given to a young woman who already carries HPV in a “harmless” state, it may “activate” the infection and directly cause precancerous lesions to appear.

Yet we are currently seeing the HPV vaccination program being implemented in Scotland with the aim to vaccinate girls under 17 years of age, some of whom will already be sexually active yet they are not advised of the hazzardous effects of this vaccination in such cases.

Aside from the issue of the HPV vaccine causing more cases of cervical cancer than it prevents, there have also been thousands of adverse reactions reported including paralysis, seizures and in some cases death has resulted.


4

Otis Boone,

Sacramento 17/08/2008 00:20:57
I was under the impression that the Church of Scotland was disestablished, and that the Catholic Church had no influence on Government before the Acts of Union. Why is the church influencing Alex Salmond's government?

"When the decision to give the jab was announced by ministers in August 2006, a spokesman for Cardinal Keith O'Brien warned it could be seen by pre-teenage girls as a "green light" for sexual activity."

Amazing how a church's dogma is so entrenched that it objects to giving a vaccination to prevent cancer because it would lead to sex. I guess its better those "slutty teenagers" die from cancer later in life for making that choice.
5

FTH22inarow,

17/08/2008 00:21:04
catholic church against medical advice oh what a surprise, if left to them we would still be suffering from the black death every 50 years, christianity/organised religion the most evil invention of man ever
6

,

17/08/2008 00:33:31
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7

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 17/08/2008 00:37:52

Yet again we are all told 'utter garbage' so the Health Authorities and Drug Companies can get their own way, and the sad thing is, we fall for it,...

'Hands Cloak and Dagger'

Like the MMR this 'jab' will have 'repercussions' for thousands of Girls.

And the sad fact IS they can still get cervical cancer, 'jab' or NO 'jab'!

How Cruel! tell the Girl you are safe from this disease, only for some to find out later in their lives the have cervical cancer! explain that one to you daughter!

And lastly, 'Girls' Will think they are, 'All Grown Up Now' after having this 'jab' and many will go on to have unprotected sex, under the age of 15years old, because we told them it was safe to do so!

That IS the message the Girl will perceive!!
8

druidh,

edinburgh 17/08/2008 00:42:33
It remains the responsibility of parents to educate their sons a daughters about "safe sex".
9

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 17/08/2008 00:44:35

Lastly, Catholics or No Catholics, it will not make a,..

'Blind bit of Difference' to what the Girl will or wont do, after receiving this 'jab'

The "Catholics" are being USED as a 'Get out Clause' Nothing more Nothing Less,,

One should look at their own, 'Back Door' before blaming others!!
10

Conan the Librarian™,

17/08/2008 00:49:14
6
A pox on them Cynical? Heh.
11

Yane,

17/08/2008 00:58:14
If they haven't already, schools & parents will teach the kids — & sidestep all the madness.
12

Guga II,

Rockall 17/08/2008 01:04:49
Religion is the opium of the masses, and a crutch for the weak-minded.
13

Statsman,

Edinburgh 17/08/2008 01:12:43
Good. I can't see why injecting kids with a cancer virus is a good thing??
14

,

17/08/2008 01:20:52
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15

,

17/08/2008 01:29:27
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16

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 17/08/2008 01:56:54

The "Catholics" are being USED as a 'Scapegoats' Nothing more Nothing Less,,

One should look at their own, 'Back Door' before blaming others!!
17

truthsleuth,

17/08/2008 02:02:41
One of the best ways of maintaining and icreasing your customer base is to make sure you have a captive market and that it keeps on breeding.
18

Evolution in action,

St Andrews 17/08/2008 02:03:24
Why is developing a cancer in any way connected with religion. Why is it connected to a preticular religion 9t The catholics have their dibs on vervical cancer treatment. are the Muslim against lung cancer chemo, the druids against liver cancer therapy, te Shinto's agianst Melanoma gene theapy. What is anything to do with cellular telomere runaway got to do with a religion?
19

senza nome,

17/08/2008 02:19:20
#6: You repeat this story of the Catholic Church causing millions of deaths in Africa, so i thought I'd check out the statistics. Presumably the only people who have to obey the laws of the church are Catholics themselves.Others are free to ignore them.
I had a look at the statistics of some of the worst affected countries for AIDS.Botswana has 38% affected by Aids, yet it only 4.9% of the population are Catholics and 41% are Protestant.South Africa and Zimbabwe both have around 7% Catholics yet massive Aids problems. If it's only Catholics that are observing the no-condom rule, then why do these countries have such problems? The answer is that millions of people are ignoring safe sex advice and it's got precious little to do with the Catholic church.It's more the fault of big drug companies refusing to allow cheaper versions of their anti_AIDS drugs to be produced locally.In S.Africa the government of Thabo Mbeki tried to deny the scale of the problem and did nothing to tackle it.


20

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 17/08/2008 02:35:27

Evolution in action ~19,

Exactly! It is all a 'NONSENSE!!

Fact is! One is trying to, 'Cover their Feet' when all goes,..'Pear-Shaped'!

The ones involved in this 'Mass Medical Experiment' and exploitation of Women, will 'latch-on' to all that question it, and disagree with it.

Then they will do their dammed best to, 'Mock', 'Ridicule' and 'Eliminate' all those that oppose!
21

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 17/08/2008 02:42:58

The Root has NOTHING to do with the "Catholic Religion", NOTHING to do with the "Catholic Religion",..

Atall!!

As would be, Blaming the "Catholics" for you getting a parking ticket!

It Is a NONSENSE, UTTER NONSENSE!!
22

,

17/08/2008 04:41:48
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23

somerferg,

perth 17/08/2008 04:43:01

This is one big leap into the unknown and as usual it is women's bodies that are being used. As the virus eminates from the male of the species I suggest the mass vaccination scheme is carried out on boys Oh but wait a minute that won't happen because we can't put their delicate health at risk. And beside which what would the Catholic Church have to say about that. I get the feeling that they assume that it is only teenage girls who are responsible for underage/unmarried sexual activity - never the boys eh??
24

,

17/08/2008 06:00:34
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25

Spud,

17/08/2008 06:54:33
the whole story and the RC church; yeez are all daft as brushes. Its very funny that you dont know how stupid yeez are! Bonkers man! Bonkers!
26

Phil C,

17/08/2008 06:57:32
The usual anti-Catholic hysteria on here again blinds the bigots to the positive side of what is being said. The Catholic Church is right to an extent in that no sex for youngsters is the safest sex...not realistic but right. Someone has to speak up for the side of reason instead of the free for all that leads to so much strife. After that it's the role of parents and teachers to guide and teach, and let's face it, we're not doing very well!

Many on here over-estimate the influence of any church, never mind the Catholic Church. People make up their own minds. Lord help us if some of the anti-Catholic stuff on these boards is spewed out in peoples' homes in front of kids.

The little minxes who pass for some of our young ladies get all the information they need already and yet we seem to have more than our fair share of young mums and sexual diseases.
27

Heid's full o'mince,

Kilmacolm 17/08/2008 07:05:05
Number 3 post. Charlie where can I find your poster 'em'?
28

Sinead,

Tanunda 17/08/2008 07:09:06
Neither the RC church nor any other denomination have anything to do with protecting women & young girls from cervical cancer.
29

Anne,

Eaglesham 17/08/2008 07:20:12
The danger inherent in this inoculation is that girls will "forget" to go for regular cervical smears, assuming that they are safe.

Secondly, the vast amount of sex education undertaken in the past few decades has led merely to a large increase in illegitimate births and sexually-transmitted diseases.
30

Boy Wonder,

17/08/2008 07:23:57
It's high time religion (any religion) was thrown out of the schools (except as a general lesson) and kept in the churches, synagogues, mosques and temples that they belong to.

Children need protection from these brain-washing institutions of superstition ... not from potential life-saving sex lessons.

Get religion out!!!
31

missing home,

la verne 17/08/2008 07:25:21
NO. 9, Druidh, exactly.
32

Wallace1297,

Dundee 17/08/2008 07:28:19
Number 27 here we go again trying to play the oppressed minority card again. Show me any crock of death-embracing supernatural bulls*it an I will say exactly the same.

Organised religion is a poison which destroys everything. I wonder how you can defend the right of weird old men to dictate their prejudices over a young girls right to know about the dangers of Aids and STD’s.

Every year the Pope kills tens, possibly hundreds of thousands of the world’s most vulnerable people by the simple expedient of forbidding Catholics to use condoms
While his imprecations are dismissed by most churchgoers in the First World as a load of papal bull, in countries in which there is little access to alternative sources of information and in which women have few rights, every papal decree against contraception sentences thousands to a lingering death.
33

WatchKeeper,

Nr. Diss, Norfolk NR15 2AZ 17/08/2008 07:42:46
I joined the army in January 1953. And that is my first introduction to "Sex Education". With Films.
They showed pictures of the male organ, covered in sores and described as "c*** rot". In my opinion this is the sort of education that should be available in all schools and places of learning. Frighten the little "burglers" into keeping their knickers on and the boys, to keep their flys closed. I'm in my seventies, yet I can still see those bits of skin hanging off the male members as displayed in some of the film. (They didnot show us pictures of the female organ. Shame.)
Kindesr Regards, ATFlynn, "Norfolk's Mutineer"
34

Samcafe,

Glasgow 17/08/2008 07:44:38
Cynical,Edinburgh 17/08/2008 00:33:31
It's at least consistent - millions of Africans have AIDS because the blessed RC church forbade them to use condoms.

Now they are helping to kill women in our country.

A pox on thgem and their apartheid education - or, rather, lack of.


Have you done any research or are you just chuntering out the usual rent a quote nonsense from the feminist ridden oxfam. The RC church makes up less than 8% of the population in the Aids infected areas of Africa, why would the other 92% abandon condoms because the Pope told them to. Just because its a trendy easy target it doesn't mean it's the correct target.
35

ZipptJeffrey,

castle 17/08/2008 07:53:58
If the Catholic church want to interfere in politcs, then they should stand for office. See how far that gets them. Secondly the health boards that DONT give out advice to schoolgirls on sexual matters should be take to court for endangering public health. Any health board found to withholding sexual health advice from cathlc girls should be taken to court and vigourously prosecuted. Also their executices and board should resign We need more reporting on the political interference of the Catholic church in Scotland. If the Catholic church has its way , it will reduce Scotland to a third world country.
36

,

17/08/2008 08:20:00
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37

Wallace1297,

17/08/2008 08:20:38
Jeff Rense a credible source if ever their was one. Why don’t you post links to his other stories about how the Holocaust never happened or how the towers were brought down not by aeroplanes crashing into hem but, by space aliens from area 51?
38

Phil C,

17/08/2008 08:32:43
#33 Wally

You miss my point completely. Whatever you think about organised religion, churches are allowed an opinion. They are the moral leadership for many people and the message is usually a good one, though the real teaching must come from parents and teachers, not the church. Certainly you have no right to dictate your prejudices over young girls' rights any more than the church has.

39

Prop,

huntington beach 17/08/2008 08:34:59
The church response is right but not for the reason given.
These children should receive sexual education at home,from their parents, not from some mass mailing of pamphlets,by the nanny state.
40

Wullie Anderson,

17/08/2008 08:45:54
deal struck between the Catholic Church and health officials, Scotland on Sunday can reveal.

Can someone please explain to me, why the RC church is doing deals on my behalf? When will the Scottish exec have the testicular fortitude to stand up and be counted and stop allowing religious bigots to impose their will on this country?

RC's make up about 17% of the Scottish population, but the church appears to now dictate to the Scottish Executive what, where and when the rest of us should be living our lives.

About time they sorted their own problems out in the church, rather then interfering in all of our lives.
41

yockel,

17/08/2008 08:47:17
#41 Aye and what would their parents know about it? Would have to ask a priest presumably.
42

Wullie Anderson,

17/08/2008 08:51:00
Phil 27

Rather than boring us with the " anti RC, oppressed minority garbage" you may wish to think about this logically and without the bigotry you obviously have deep inside you.

The reason the RC church is attacked is simple. They are interfering in our lives on a daily basis, even though most of us are not RC. The Scottish Executive are bending over backwards to catch the so called green vote and in doing so, are now openly indulging in trade offs with the bigots within the church.

Do the non RC's of Scotland not count any more?
43

,

17/08/2008 09:06:23
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44

,

17/08/2008 09:10:35
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45

Wallace1297,

17/08/2008 09:16:59
Phil C how can you say I am trying to impose my views on anyone. I don’t particularly want young girls to get STD’s because of the dogma of your so-called faith. I am in favour of giving people a choice based on facts. You and your medieval church are in favour of ignorance, superstition and bigotry.

As for the church having a moral message I am not sure that a church which is going to canonise Nazi Pope Pius XII, tells people that condemns don’t stop the spread of HIV, protects paedophile priests or burned thousands of woman as Witches can claim providence on mortality with a straight face.

By all means the Church can have an opinion but when their schools are subsided by taxpayers money then I have a problem with their death embracing dogma.
46

Wallace1297,

17/08/2008 09:27:41

interstellar mince you are an idiot. Every time I come across one of you holocaust denying conspiraloons you always start typing pages and pages in which you “prove” 9/11 was an inside job by the shape-shifting lizards, NOW, Zog etc etc. I am well aware of all the conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11. None of them are credible (inc tower 7 I know no plane hit it) so please don’t waste you time regurgitating them

I suggest you look to George Monbiot on 9/11 conspiracies article which conclusively debunks all you fallacy’s.

But then I suppose I must be a paid agent of the New world Order. Maybe I am a mind-controlled deep-cover agent who is not aware of his mission.
47

Wullie Anderson,

17/08/2008 09:35:08
48

If any other organisation had the sexual abuse, criminal scandals, which are rampant within the RC church, they would have been closed down years ago.

Yet here we have these moral guardians of Scotland telling everyone how to live their lives and conduct themselves.

When will someone in the Scottish Executive have the decency and moral courage to stand up and be counted when confronted by these bigots?
48

Puritan,

South Lanarkshire 17/08/2008 09:37:30
[Quote]The Catholic Church originally raised objections to the jab on the grounds it could encourage promiscuity, but has made a U-turn after reaching an agreement with health and education bosses.

The deal means girls getting the HPV jab will not receive any accompanying advice on the need to use condoms to protect themselves from other sexually transmitted diseases.[end quote]

Does the catholic church by doing so advocate the spread of sexual disease in the same way they have in Africa? Hmmm

A minority religion who have far too much sway with this Scottish executive. Quite why, I'd love to know. They do not represent me or any of my family so why does their small minded view mean more in this backwater country?


49

,

17/08/2008 09:44:27
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50

Phil C,

17/08/2008 10:02:34
#49 Wallace

Believe it or not, I agree with you about dogma, about condoms, about faith schools, about paedophilia caused by unnatural celibacy, about giving people choice....This story is not about any of that.

51

Phil C,

17/08/2008 10:04:35
The RC Church is simply making it's views clear and pressing the Scottish Government with a stance which many people share. It's called consultation and it's a responsibility of Government to listen to all views, before passing legislation.

The SoS loves leading with these RC stories because it gets people going, but it inflames the unhealthy Scottish bigotry. I'm sure many other groups influenced policy but that's not reported.
52

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 17/08/2008 10:11:25

#54,

I truly wish I was "wrong", unfortunately I AM 101% accurate in what I say about this 'jab', if one does not want to believe this, it is they that are ignorant to the facts that are out there if one looks.

You wont suffer and I wont suffer regardless the outcome, your presumptions are wrong, as IS giving girls false security and promises.
53

Wallace1297,

17/08/2008 10:16:52
This story is not about a consultation of opinions it is about the imposition of opinions. The Church’s opinions have no basis in fact and are absurd. They should be ignored. Only somewhere between a fifth and a quarter of Catholic in Scotland even bother to turn up to church every Sunday. This means the Church speaks for roughly 4 to 5% of the people of Scotland.

If even one child is contracts an STD because of Catholic Church intransigence that is too high a price to pay. The Catholic Church is a criminal moribund organisation.
54

Heid's full o'mince,

Kilmacolm 17/08/2008 10:16:58
Hi Charlie again,
Now you're up.... can you answer my post no.28?
Regards
55

Heid's full o'mince,

Kilmacolm 17/08/2008 10:18:45
Charles Linskaill

Hi Charlie again,
Now you're up.... can you answer my post no.28?
Regards
56

,

17/08/2008 10:20:05
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57

Wallace1297,

17/08/2008 10:21:58
Charles Linskaill and interstellar mince are both members of the tin-foil-hat brigade. This is where crackpot ideas like Chiropractic and Alchemy replace evidence based medicine. The crazier the theory the more they embrace it

58

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 17/08/2008 10:23:30

Mince Boy ~60,

Is it the link to the poster Em ya want, which is here in this paper, albeit 7 to 10 days ago, re another subject concerning yet again another abuse of Women.
59

Wallace1297,

17/08/2008 10:24:01
Conspiracy Theorist Characteristics:

Arrogance, relentlessness, inability to answer questions, fondness for certain stock phrases, inability to employ or understand Occam's Razor, inability to tell good evidence from bad, inability to withdraw, leaping to conclusions, using previous conspiracies as evidence to support their claims, and, it's always a conspiracy.
60

Phil C,

17/08/2008 10:26:17
#58 Wally

Whatever!
61

,

17/08/2008 10:27:48
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62

wuggles,

Glasgow 17/08/2008 10:31:21
truly wish I was "wrong", unfortunately I AM 101% accurate in what I say about this 'jab', if one does not want to believe this, it is they that are ignorant to the facts that are out there if one looks.

You wont suffer and I wont suffer regardless the outcome, your presumptions are wrong, as IS giving girls false security and promises.
---------------------------------------------------
Typical answer from a Roman Catholic dogmatist,if there's such a word,but you get my drift.
63

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 17/08/2008 10:36:11

Wallace ~63,

The only ones in the "tin foil hat brigade' are the ones such as you that are 'Gullible' to swallow all you are told!


Just like the American Cornell,, who told his army of soldiers to watch a Nuclear Bomb go off from a distance that was not safe and with no protection, and like mice to the slaughter, they obeyed, to their unfortunate detriment, the incident was filmed and later televised,

The memorable command was,...

"GET CLOSER, GET CLOSER IT IS Perfectly Safe!!"

'Aye' "tin foil hat brigade" right enough,!

64

,

17/08/2008 10:39:01
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65

Wallace1297,

17/08/2008 10:39:57
interstellar mince I always find conspiraloons such as yourself who spend their days trawling the internet to “prove” their ridiculous theories are either socially or sexually inadequate or in your case both
66

Wullie Anderson,

17/08/2008 10:44:24
56

It's not called consultation as you would have us believe. We elect politicians to make decisions and run our country, not RC Priests and clergymen. If they want to become involved in politics, stand for election, otherwise don't dictate to a majority of this country who don't share the same views on life.

As for the bigotry, that old chestnut just won't play any more. If anyone has a differing view to RC religious zealots, the "B" word is automatically thrown in to the conversation.

Try and join modern Scotland and forget the past, RC's are not victimised in Scotland. Indeed I would go as far as to say, they enjoy more priveleges than most other religions.
67

wayne bijlyeerheid,

17/08/2008 10:53:40
An issue that is fundamental to female health and the catholic church don't have a single (or married for that matter)woman to put across their view.
A dessiccated celibate cardinal and a hard line doctrinaire advocate of apartheid schooling are the voices of "the one true faith".
Are these narrow minded bigots to dictate policy to Scotland's politicians?
68

Helter Skelter,

17/08/2008 10:53:45
Sex education has been constructed out of secular ideals since the 1960s, and today , the UK has the highest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe.

Mabey it is time to start listening a bit more to a religious perspective on how we go about things.
69

Media 1,

cape town 17/08/2008 10:54:47
The church is a disgrace and the people running it among the most evil on the planet. Control, indoctrination and power at all costs is their mantra. Callous and incensitive they will force their hateful religious bile on those they deem to be theirs..

If the devil was real, he or she would surely be in the same mould as the church.
70

Helter Skelter,

17/08/2008 10:56:40
It strikes me that british culture is actually against childhood itself.
71

Helter Skelter,

17/08/2008 10:58:18
Deary deary me....the Catholic Church expresses a view which is not 'main stream progressive' and the wood lice come crawling out.
72

Wullie Anderson,

17/08/2008 11:01:07
The RC church just don't do irony. Women's issues being dictated to, by men who have taken a vow of celibacy.

Whatever next? Alex Salmond thinking for himself and not being dictated to by Cardinal O'brien.
73

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 17/08/2008 11:02:15
#35 Samcafe
"millions of Africans have AIDS because the blessed RC church forbade them to use condoms."

Actually, millions of Africans have AIDS because they indulge in promiscuous sex outside of marriage - following the abandonment of traditional African systems of morality. Similarly, our youngsters are bring brought up in an age where they are saturated in images of promiscuous sex from the internet, TV, film, magazines - and on radio. The net result here in the UK is the highest rate of sexually transmitted diseases in Europe - and its not just HIV, gonorrhoea, syphilis amd chlamydia. It is also Hepatititis A, B and C, tuberculosis and a dozen other serious conditions.

Sex has always been dangerous - socially, politically, familially and medically. That is why ALL societies hedge sex around with moral and social rules of conduct: age-taboos, incest taboos, courtship rules, engagement rules, caste rules, marriage rules, property rights and divorce rights.
This WAS the case in the UK but successive govts have removed all the taboos, all the proscriptions, destroyed family cohesion, created millions of single-parent-state-clients and overturned ALL tradition morality. Morals are social mechanisms invented to minimise conflict and personal damage. Abandon morals and you get waht we have now: a tidal wave of abortions, ST diseases, cervical cancers, broken homes, unhappy people living on benefits for the rest of their lives. Disease is just the minor part of all this.
74

Wullie Anderson,

17/08/2008 11:04:32
79

It must be upsetting when others have a viewpoint in a democracy. I never knew we all had to stay silent when the RC church dictated government policy on a majority who don't share that religion.

So anyone not bowing to RC doctrine are now to be called "wood lice"

Charming indeed!
75

wayne bijlyeerheid,

17/08/2008 11:05:06
#79
The catholic church claims astronomical numbers in its membership,it claims to BE the "mainstream", and, if anyone who doesn't believe they are dares voice an opinion then they have their own "woodlice" ready to swarm.
76

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17/08/2008 11:09:14
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TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 17/08/2008 11:10:43
Charles Linskaill

Good morning to you and your DYW. You seem to be in fine fettle today and your views are very pronounced.

I had thought the sexual impulse was a "gift" from God to increase mankind and the pleasure derived from sexual activities a pleasant bonus.

But the way the Roman Catholic church treats sex you would think it was an affliction from Satan.

Can't they - the priests and nuns, that is - just go back to praying and doing good works of charity and saving souls and suppresssing their natural sexual urges since they are "supposed" to be CELIBATE. HAH!
78

wayne bijlyeerheid,

17/08/2008 11:21:55
A question that was raised by Tony Soprano.
Would the anti-birth control lobby ban Viagra?
After all surely an artificial means to procreation is just as much of an affront to the celibate pope's strictures as artificial means of contraception.
79

Media 1,

cape town 17/08/2008 11:22:43
In the bible, the god entity murdered 2.6 million people. From Soddom and Gamorah to Lots wife and the millions of Egyptian babies the monster known as god maimed, tortured and destroyed.
ANYONE, who praises, worships or cultivates a relationship with such a beast is sick to the core.

80

Ian Campbell Anderson,

Canada 17/08/2008 11:34:08
One word DISGRACEFULL.When will people wake up
81

Media 1,

cape town 17/08/2008 11:37:28
Spook

Remember; you dont count!
82

Webbie,

mullingar 17/08/2008 11:37:47
Without the education of the vaccine the rumour factory will be in full flow and some kids will believe that they cannot get pregnant because they have been vaccinated.
If you vaccinate explain why!!!
If ANY church wants to interfere in Scottish life then get enough of you together to get elected but I doubt that enough of you could agree on any principal enough to allow even one of you to STAND for parliament.
83

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 17/08/2008 11:42:14

TimW ~85,

Good morning to you also and hope you are also keeping well.
This subject is close to heart, as over here in Scotland, this soo called 'Wonder jab' is being portrayed as the 'be all and end all' of Cervical Cancer, anyone with a 'Modicum of intelligence' would Know this is 'NOT' the case, and dragging the Catholic Church into it, is a deliberate conspiracy to build a,..

'HPVjabagate' Government tight belt round the real issue.

'Clutching at Straws' the Catholic Church are being used as sacrifices to the slaughter, on not what to tell your Daughter and that is one about the real truth!
84

Puritan,

South Lanarkshire 17/08/2008 11:43:51
#79

Wood lice? Really? Who are you referring to? You're obvious disdain for Christians outside of the RC church, who have a differing opinion from you, will no doubt be commended at mass.
85

Media 1,

cape town 17/08/2008 11:46:25
Charles Larkhall

Problem is this; Just as Charles Mansion and Jefferey Dahmer will always be remembered for the killers they were, so to will the church be known for the murderous and utterly dispicable organisation it has always been.
Based on that organisations history, they cannot ever be trusted.
86

radge dug,

Dùn Eideann 17/08/2008 11:46:52
Another good reason to stop faith schools in Scotland.

Why should common sense and reason be replaced by dark age superstition? As to 'immorality' and people having sex outside of marriage, i would've thought that the Catholic church had its own problems to deal with.

Why, in 2008, should religion still be influencing our laws and public services?
87

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17/08/2008 11:48:34
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Govanhill,

Govanhill 17/08/2008 11:54:42
I wonder how many catholic women were involved in this decision? Especially catholic women who have lost mothers or sisters because of cancer of the cervix.
I am a catholic and would prefer the Catholic Church to stay out of matters that do not concern them.
89

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17/08/2008 12:15:20
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90

Captain Harry,

Gandamack 17/08/2008 12:28:45
I look forward to finding a political party in Scotland which doesn't take it up the ass from the Catholic church. I'll wait a while, possibly never see it. A bunch of sad old men dictating health policy based on medieval dogma to a government too scared of losing a minority vote to say no, what a sad state of affairs. This is why we should always be ruled by Westminster, at least it has balls.
91

Anna Purna,

Hamilton 17/08/2008 12:32:49
Any right thinking person can see this for what it is. Well, it seems to me that this stance will hinder the Roman church's well known expansionist efforts! Ha Ha!
92

danbob,

17/08/2008 12:34:14
Would a practising catholic like to come on here and show us the scripture that speaks out against contraception. Abortion yes. Contraception it,s nowhere.
93

Wullie Anderson,

17/08/2008 12:34:54
100

Know what you mean, but look at the Westminster government and it's appeasement of the RC church. Ruth Kelly and her religious zealot friends in the Labour party, have now formed a group of 50 plus RC MP's to promote the Vaticans teachings.

If I had know I was voting for the Vatican when voting Labour at the last election, I would have never put my x in the box.

Politicians crawling about looking for any vote, regardless of the consequences is utterly disgusting. Particularly when it involves people like the serial story teller "Cardinal punch a pape O'brien" Surely this man has to be the most bigoted person to ever wear a religious collar round his neck?
94

Mobat,

17/08/2008 12:45:46
Great to see religion having a marked effect on the majrioty of the population who don't give a monkeys. I bet more of these girls are pacticing the "S" word rather than the "R" word.

Please lets drag ourselves into the 21st century If we're doing something to stop SRD's & unwanted pregnacy how can this be for the good of every one.
95

Mobat,

17/08/2008 12:46:40
and politicians asre even lower scum brokering a deal like this for votes
96

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17/08/2008 13:09:55
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97

Shamus,

Glasgow 17/08/2008 13:11:02
It is now the turn of the SNP TO CRAWL to the Catholic Church. Much of course to the detriment of Labour. We now seem to have an elected Government to serve non-Catholics. The Catholics being dictated to by the Church.
98

its still time,

livi 17/08/2008 13:15:48
two things disgusting here
1) The Catholic Church has now decided it will back the programme, with the jabs being available in its own schools. the schools do not belong to the catholic church, they belong to the govt funded by all scots of all faiths and none. They should be told what goes on in scotland state schools.

2) the snp cow towing to the catholic church and religious fundamentalism in the shape of bishop devine, obrien et al. disgraceful. Believe it or no alex salmond has obnly voted at wesminster once in recent months (shock!) and that was to cut womens rights but limiting abortion. The mans a disgrace and no women in scotland should have anthing to do with them!
99

Bachus,

17/08/2008 13:15:59
Breaking news............Breaking news............Breaking news.

The Vatacn City's entry to The Eurovision Song Contest "I Can,t Get No Contraception" has been withdrawn, after Pope told them to pull it out at the last minute.
100

Russell M,

Stirling 17/08/2008 13:22:11
And Cardinal O'Brien or his spokesman have what knowledge and/or experience of pre-teenage girls and sexuality?
Scotland repudiated the pope's authority in 1560, when we were still an independent country, now we have Scottish Government officials "consulting" The Catholic Church.
The Catholics of Scotland have helped keep alive certain important aspects of Scottish culture that the Presbyterian majority disdains, but this interference in public and political policy is dangerous.
101

Russell M,

Stirling 17/08/2008 13:28:18
Hanlon's razor: Never assume malice when stupidity will suffice.
102

Anna Purna,

Hamilton 17/08/2008 13:59:31
Russell M, I am intrigued about what aspects you mean. Seriously.

"have helped keep alive certain important aspects of Scottish culture that the Presbyterian majority disdain"
103

zeno,

www.thinkhumanism.com 17/08/2008 14:02:12
Lots of rhetoric here but sadly lacking in evidence.

Charles: you are obviously convinced of your position, so can you give us some references to the evidence that convinced you so we can check and perhaps also be so convinced?
104

Macbeth 1616,

Fife 17/08/2008 14:22:16
I am not a Catholic, I'm not anything.

I love my daughter, and will do anything to protect her from harm.

When she was young we had to make the decision on whether to have her inoculated. I am not a doctor, but I listened to what my educated doctor said, and then read some more. This meant she was inoculated against everything possible.

She is now 19 and is too old to have this potential life-saver. She would have been given it, without any question. I put her long term health above everything else.

Her having had an injection at 12/13 would make no difference at all to her future sexuality. No more than her getting tetanus jags made her think about going to play near rusty barbwire fences.

I think 99% of kids learn of sex from friends and magazines. A combination of peer pressure, parental embarrassment, and an underestimation of the age that interest begins.

For anyone to take a single approach of "say no" and nothing else, is both naive and neglectful of the power of hormones.



105

Jeanne J.,

Florida, US 17/08/2008 14:33:31
Unfortunately, Scotland isn't the only place where they're confusing religion and politics. Here, Bush and his right-wingnuts are trying to sneak through legislation to declare birth control an equivalent to abortion--obviously because they've failed to reverse Roe V Wade (the case that essentially legalized abortion here).

As for this immunization, whilst the RC church's influence is disturbing, I think it's even worse to accept it as safe. The makers of Gardasil have largely failed to get the shot mandated here, and good thing. Not only has it not been proven to work (the Journal of American Medical Assn. reported HPV isn't even responsible for cervical cancer in Aug. 2007), at least 28 miscarriages have occurred after receiving it, an increasing number of deaths have occurred (approx. 1 a month), and HPV vaccines actually increase the risk of cervical cancer in some women by 44.6%. Not only is it not effective, it's not safe--and it was never tested adequately to begin with.

The bottom line is that Big Pharma, govt., and payola are responsible for foisting this garbage off on us, turning our daughters into guinea pigs--apparently worldwide. IMHO, it's never safe to assume a program like this is safe simply because the govt. backs it.
106

yoric,

17/08/2008 15:15:41
Who Governs Scotland? The Democratically elected Government, elected by the people? or the Catholic Church, elected by nobody?

Makes you glad that Henry viii broke up the Catholic Church in Britain.
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17/08/2008 15:16:05
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Taiwanasaurus,

TAIPEI 17/08/2008 15:19:40

Nice to see people with no Heterosexual experience giving advice to people partaking in normal Heterosexual activities

No apologies,during these formative years kid should be offered all the support needed Educationally,Medically and Emotionally to ensure that any mistakes made don't continue to follow and haunt the rest of their lives .

Wake up RC Church; this is the 21st Century in a new Scotland not the 14th century with people qivering at your feet waiting for a scrap of salvation

Anyway I thought we a secular society?

109

zigzag,

Canada 17/08/2008 15:31:37
I wonder what the fatality rate of AIDs vs Cervical Cancer is for young women. How old does one have to be to get Crevical Cancer and AIDS.
Is it mandatory for the young women to take this jab or can parents say NO.

Once again Rome is exerting its you better listen to HOLY GUY thing.

Curious.
110

Calvinist,

17/08/2008 15:41:07
Reasons why the SNP should be ashamed:

1)The backing of arch bigot Brian Souter who bought SNP votes in Westminster against the repeal of clause 28.
2)The fielding of a reactionary candidate at the Glasgow East by-election who is a opposed to scientific progress that has the potential to reverse many degenerative diseases.
3)The scurrilous deal with the Catholic Church cited in this article which is a cynical ploy to gain votes from the Catholic Population of Scotland.

Rather than adopting the Scandinavian model of Social Democracy it seems that Alex Salmond is wandering perilously close to Franco's Spain.

Wake up Scotland or become the most socially conservative nation in Europe.
111

Calvinist,

17/08/2008 16:01:18
'Scottish Government officials consulted with many stakeholders.....'

Stakeholders? Isn't this Nu-Lab gobbledygook. I thought the SNP were going to put an end to this. Who or what is a stakeholder? And who decides who is a stakeholder?
Please eliminate this word from the dictionary.
112

I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 16:53:39
The concern of various heathens here to encourage fornication amongst 12 & 13 year old Catholic girls is rather sinister.

One cannot help but wonder at their motivation.

Whilst many of you have the morals of mongrels, you have no right to impose those morals on others.
113

I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 16:58:28
Yoric, 117

Your call an all powerful, autocratic central government with authority to overrule the hard won civil and religious liberties we currently enjoy are rather bizarre. I'm sure Stalin would have been proud of you!

Perhaps you could try China? I think they're providing the kind of government you crave.
114

I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 17:05:33
Waspy, 123

I agree.

Let's all enjoy civil and religious liberty.

Let's enjoy the freedom to choose.

If any parent want their 12\13 year old daughter to have medication to enable more widespread fornication without fear of HPV, supported by detailed information re contraception then I'm sure they can get it.

Cant imagine many of them would have their wee fornicating darlings at a Catholic School though....

115

Shamus,

Glasgow 17/08/2008 17:17:30
Does this mean the Nats have abandoned Home Rule for Rome Rule.
116

I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 17:21:36
Macbeth, 115

Fair enough.

I'm willing to allow you to make those decisions for your family.

Are you willing to allow me to make different decisions for MY family?

Some families believe sex is inevitable and teach girls to protect agaisnt it.

Other families believe that as humans we have morals and choices to make, and that if adolescent girls are not promiscuously fornicating they need not be "protected".

Note too that fornicating is illegal for girls under 16.
117

Griffe,

17/08/2008 17:38:39
Outcome, more Catholics.
118

I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 17:40:18
Waspy, 129

Me too, Waspy.

Olympics on the telly.
Football on the digital radio.
Watching my weans playing football in the back garden
My older son playing on his PS2

2008 - life is good.

Just a wee spat here about various differing attitudes to fornication amongst 12\13 year old girls. Ho hum.
119

I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 17:43:12
Griffe, 130

Not if they abide by the teachings of the Church.

Another outcome of what many are advocating here: more young men in jail and on sex registers. Fornicating with a 12 \ 13 year old is illegal. As she is unable to provide consent, I think it's classed as rape. Be careful what you advocate guys.
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I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 17:47:39
greenhill, Glasgow, 72

What about this moral dilema for you, Greenhill, Glasgow: Would it be a greater sin for you to wear a condom when raping a child than if he did not wear a condom when commiting the act ?
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17/08/2008 18:31:51
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17/08/2008 18:35:25
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grannie,

Glasgow 17/08/2008 18:52:15
When my children were little we were encouraged to vacinate. No one mentioned that ,in some cases, this could cause other problems. It was years leter I discovered that vacinations could cause problems. With the MMR.jab various problems,in children have arisen I can't understand why both sexes are given the vacine for mumps when as far as I know only boys, if getting mumps after puberty,are in any danger. With regards to Rubella(german measles),only pregnant woman taking this can damage the unborn child. So why therefore give this to both sexes. How long will it take us to find out that this vacine will cause our granddaughters problems in later life. I say be wary of giving authority to others for our childrens welfare.
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wayne bijlyeerheid,

17/08/2008 19:06:52
#123 I_N_R_I,
Surely as an member, complicit in the rites and rituals (and crimes), of the RC church you should know what the degree of moral dilemna is when a priest decides to take advantage sexually of the people who trust him, you've got enough experience, so why don't you tell us, instead of trying to change the subject.
125

Kitti Kat,

Newtown Square 17/08/2008 19:45:45
When is the catholic church going to get with the times. Guess they would prefer a lot of illigitmate babies and young women with cervical cancer---? Girls (and boys too) sould have sex education in schools. It won't stop them from having sex but perhaps teach responsibility for actions. This is only one of the reasons I no longer go to church. When the catholic church stops tellling women what to do regarding birh control, etc. m aybe I will go back. Notice, that it is ALL MEN who make these cruel rules that we women are expected to follow.Banning divorce is another thing they should stay out of. My neighbor was beaten by her husband just about every week and spent many days in ER's --- her priest said she had to stay with the husband. After nine kids and many years of abuse, she finally told the church to shove it!!!
126

The Pict.,

canada 17/08/2008 19:45:47
The 'JAB' is another money maker for the LARGE DRUG companies. There is NO proof anywhere that the 'JAB' will work. Remember THALIDOMIDE?

No parent should allow their daughter(s) to have the 'JAB'. I won't.

Slainte mhath.
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I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 19:52:44
Kat, 139

If "getting with the times" involves educating 12\13 year old girls so they can promiscually fornicate then I'm sure it's not in the Church's plans at all.

I see your old wife's tale re the big bad Priest: you can shove it!!!
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Kitti Kat,

Newtown Square 17/08/2008 19:53:38
Addition to above----My neighbor also told her husband to shove off along with the priest!!!
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I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 19:54:37
wayne, 138

Not sure what you're trying to ask me.

Try again.
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I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 19:55:20
Kat, 142

Aye, sure!
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Osama Bin Liner,

edinburgh 17/08/2008 20:23:43
Anyone in any doubt as to the value of religion will surely regard this as a clincher. Religion's medieval belief systems continue to stymie progress against aids in Africa. The government should not be dwelling on electoral consequences of its policy and just do the right thing.

I support the SNP but things like this make me despair.
132

Shamus,

17/08/2008 20:45:17
145# You should despair for supporting that lot. It is obvious to most thinking people that the SNP have been cuddling up to religious fundamentalists for votes. If the Souter money was not enough for you then what is.
133

McCanuck,

cape breton,ca 17/08/2008 21:01:39
As a R.C. of Scotch ancestry, I am embarrassed by what
the R.C.Scottish Church is saying. Both of my teen-aged daughters recently had the hpv shots. At the heart of the controversy,as always, is a celibate, socially dysfunctional clergy. We practicing catholics in Canada put little stock in what they preach when they refer to issues of personal morality, especially after so many of them have been implicated in sex-abuse scandals with alter boys. We attend to share a church experience with other citizens, praying for world peace and ignoring the sometimes silly rants of men who should, for the most part, be enjoying a long overdue retirement.
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I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 21:06:57
Osama, 145

Dreadfully weak argument.

I think you'll find that the promiscuity and fornication many are keen to facilitate here are at the heart of HIV probs in Africa.

Amongst those who follow the teachings of the Church, the incidence of HIV is, by definition, very low.
135

I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 21:09:31
Shamus, 146

Portraying ordinary, decent Catholics in Scotland as religious fundamentalists is just silly and a low shot.

Christianity is the world's biggest religion.
Catholicism the world's largest faith with over 1000 million members.

Try tolerance.

136

McCanuck,

cape breton,ca 17/08/2008 21:12:31
Forgot to add that it was our family pharmacist who convinced my wife and I to get our daughters vaccinated . She is convinced that the hpv vaccine would have saved her sister's life from the cervical cancer which killed her.
137

I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 21:13:07
Liar, 147

That's a nonsense post and you know it.

You say you're embarrassed - you SHOULD be - by your post!!!

Catholic Scotland is resisting lessons in matters that will facilitate fornication amongst 12 & 13 year old girls.

Now, you may have the morals of a mongrel dog - but we do not.

We will resist education in fornicating for adolescent daughters whether you like it or not.
138

I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 21:14:21
150: as opposed to some other medics who argue that it is toooooooo risky.
139

H215,

New York 17/08/2008 21:18:05
I'm confused. Is the RC Church controlling the health info given to ALL Scottish girls, or just the Catholic ones? If the former, that's outrageous and should not be tolerated. If the latter, well, if the girls are their property I guess they can do with them as they choose.

I'd propose this: All Catholic girls would be given a question - Are you the property of the Catholic Church, or do you control your own healthcare? If they say yes, they'd be given a sheet of paper that says that they are being denied vital health info, as per Church policy. IF the latter, then they get the info they need.

Oh, and girls who reject healthcare as per the RC Church - no taxpayer-financed benefits for them. THeir bills are the responsibility of the RC Church.

PS - Still furious over the so-called "faith" forum of US candidates last night.
140

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17/08/2008 21:18:11
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I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 21:22:51
H215, 153

OMG - how stupid are you?

The Catholic Church is - quite rightly - managing the content of what is taught to children who choose to go to a CATHOLIC SCHOOL.

Guess what!!! The Church is AGAINST promiscuous fornication of 12 & 13 year old girls and doesnt want to provide lesson sto encourage that.

Aside of anything else....it's ILLEGAL over here!!!
142

I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 21:26:58
Slippy, 154

Funnily enough, I dont enjoy talking about under age fornication. I'll leave that to the pervs here who are advocating lessopns to arm 12 & 13 year old girls for under age sex.

I see YOU suggesting my morality is greater than yours. What a stupid comment to make.

Other than that, it's plain you have not actually read the article. Advice: comment on items you have some knowledge of.
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17/08/2008 21:55:48
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H215,

New York 17/08/2008 22:04:23
155 -

Well, if its only Catholic girls who are having their lives risked, fine. That's their choice. But that leaves open the question of who is paying their medical bills?

No one is encouraging under-age girls to have sex. They have to receive the vacine BEFORE they have sex. Its like insurance. You get it BEFORE you need it. And since you don't know WHEN you'll need it, you get it now.

Its interesting, the different religions that were against birth control because the threat of pregnancy was needed to stop girls (nothing said about boys) from having sex. And then they were against STD vaccines, because the threat of THAT was also needed to stop the girls from having sex. Then they were against AIDS treatments. And now they're against cancer treatments.

What, isn't "Sex leads to death from AIDS, death from syphillis and the destruction of your future from pregnancy" sufficient? Do girls need to risk cancer death now?

Why no penalties for the boys? How about 6 months chemical castration for any boy suspected of having sex?

And, of course, I have nothing against you all doing as you wish. Just saying.
145

I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 22:11:29
Slippy, 157

Yep, no bias at all. Just a good, straightforward, honest, decent, law abiding fella.

Oh, I'd rather NOT be talking about preparing 12 & 13 year old girls to fornicate.

You suggest I "thinks all 12-13 year old girls are away behind the bikesheds the minute they have a jag" - that's just lies - but I guess I'd expect that from your sort.

Scottish Catholics CHOOSE to have their children educated in Catholic Schools so that they are educated in certain morals and standards. We believe that pre-tennage girls fornicating is wrong - and should be discouraged. We believe that as humans we have morals, and choices. We're not animals. Fornication is not inevitable for 12\13\14\15 year old girls. The Church has agreed to allow distribution of this jag via Catholic Schools but will not allow wee girls to be taught re contraception.

In this stance they will be supported by the vast majority of parents of children in the schools.

Quite why various heathens come here to object to our children being taught in morals of our choosing in our Schools is beyond me.

I would not dream of telling other parents how THEIR children should be educated - why others feel it's appropriate to tell Scottish Catholics how their morals should be imposed on us is incredible.

NO-ONE tells me how to think and behave.

No old man. No clergy - and no ignorant heathen on a website either.



146

I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 22:14:45
H215, 158

You're still not getting this, are you? Sheeeesh!

In following the position implemented by the Church there is no risk to the girls. They get the vaccine if they want it.

If you feel there is - please tell me about it!
147

Osama Bin Liner,

edinburgh 17/08/2008 22:16:19
148
You can call sex whatever Victorian terms you wish but it won't change the fact that people around the world find it quite enjoyable despite the fact that religions, especially Catholic, of which I now happily count myself among its growing ex-membership, hugely disapporve, despite most of its spokesmen knowing very little about it and, indeed, considering its unmarried expression a bit manky.

When you couple that with a lack of education and prohibition of protection mechanisms against STD's in third world countries, it renders the church a disgusting irrelevance to the 21st century.

Your self control in sexual matters may be something on which you pride yourself but don't pretend that there is, or should be, a universal moral code based on your beliefs or that everyone has your education when it comes to contraceptive choices. Try living and working among people condemned to live with aids which they need not have without political/relgious pig-headedness.
148

I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 22:23:35
Osama, 161

Thankfully you've given up on that stupid Africa argument - that really was nonsense!

Now, more stupidity from you....

You say Catholicism disapproves of sex. Utter garbage man. Utter utter cr_p.

In 3rd world countries - like other countries - the incidence of AIDS amongst those who accept the teachings of the Church is very very very low.

You know that AIDS spreads rapidly amongst fornicators - particularly homosexual fornicators.

I aint trying to impose my beliefs on anyone. I'm just insisting on MY rights to bring up MY children in the way I choose and wont accept the interference of intolerant seculars here or elsewhere.
149

Wee Fred,

17/08/2008 22:26:18
All the young catholic girls where I live are breeding like rabbits, numerous cases of unmarried mothers at 15-19yrs.

Its good for the church as it guarantees them a flock for years to come.

Even though most of them are cradle to grave social security cases.
150

I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 22:31:44
How bizarre.....

Can any of you guys explain to me how this decision by Scottish Catholics affects you?

Why are decisions re how WE bring up OUR children provoking a response from YOU?

Is there no limit to your intolerance?
151

I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 22:33:00
163: Oh dear.....another ignorant post.
152

Osama Bin Liner,

edinburgh 17/08/2008 22:35:48
162

I feel sad for your children. I can almost imagine the dread they will feel towards sex which will only be acceptable within the imagined sanctity of marriage.

Desperate.

Best of luck developing some thoughts that originate from yourself and not from what some hugely discredited organisation tells you to believe.

Good night.
153

I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 22:42:53
166:

Your imaginings re the sexuality of my children are really not my problem, Osama. They are irrelevant.

On the basis of a few posts on a website you insist that I am incapable of developing my own thoughts.

You know NOTHING about me. You know not my age, my gender, my occupation, my location, my upbringing, what kind of person I am. You know NOTHING - and yet you make that assertion.

That is a really really STUPID thing to post.

154

Thistledhu,

17/08/2008 22:48:03
this is a subject that require's seriouse debate but can i ask the Bigots amongst us to leave it alone had the headline been humanists strikeing a deal over the content of advice you would be lucky if there was 20 posts on this subject but no its the catholic church and cue the bigots.

I dident know so many people in larkhall have the internet and can type!!
155

wayne bijlyeerheid,

17/08/2008 22:54:50
I_N_R_I,
How many females in the jesuits then?
You're brandishing the initials of their motto so we'll assume that's where your point of view comes from.
Have you ever mixed with members of the opposite sex or has your sexual education been limited to the sort of seminarian peer group activities that has resulted in the world wide convictions of priests, many from the jesuit order, for sexual assaults, rape etc., against minors?
Or did you just take part in the cover up?

156

Shamus,

Glasgow 17/08/2008 22:54:51
164# The decision was not made by Scottish Catholics. It was made by the Catholic Church. Catholics do have the vote in Scotland. We are democratic. If some Catholics want to move to the wee fundamentalist State within Rome then that can be arranged. Although it may be difficult for toilet arrangements. And men seem to make up the majority. Strange! Or is it!! mmmmmm
157

I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 22:56:19
Thistle, 168

Aye, the intolerant seculars come from far and wide to berate the way Scottish Catholics bring up our children.

At stake here is not only our core belief that teenage girls should not be educated on matters that encourage promiscuous fornication - but fornication amongst under 16s is illegal.

I cant help but wonder what kind of response I'd get if I were to try to impose MY views on the way THEY bring up THEIR children!
158

wayne bijlyeerheid,

17/08/2008 22:58:14
thistledhu,
where did you get the computer in Croy?
you're a snob as well as a bigot
159

I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 23:00:50
Shamus, 170

We decided to have our children educated in Catholic Schools. This decison is what we would expect of our leaders.

Yes, Scotland is a democracy, and within that democracy we enjoy civil and religious liberties.

You do appear to seek a society where religion is frowned upon and a totalitarian state makes autocratic decisions on behalf of the populace. Can I suggest you try China?

Your interference in how ordinary, decent, tax paying Catholics bring up our children is most unwelcome.
160

I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 23:01:45
172: great insight.
161

wayne bijlyeerheid,

17/08/2008 23:03:19
#171
identifying with the jesuits, have nothing to do but tell people they can't discuss stories in the news.
Your church is trying to impose their superstitions on others.
welcome to Scotland the best wee catholic dictatorship in the world.
162

I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 23:03:43
wayne, 169

Your post is based on an assumption.

Your assumption is wrong.

Have you ever particpated in the sexual abuise of a child? Or did you just help in the cover up?
163

wayne bijlyeerheid,

17/08/2008 23:04:40
#174
almost as good as yours but then I'm not at a monitor 16 hours a day spitting foam.
164

I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 23:04:49
175:

Tell us more about the Church's efforts to impose it's views on others?

Will it affect you? How?
165

Thistledhu,

17/08/2008 23:05:13
172 neither a snob or a bigot but i do have the inteligence to live and let live and not to froth at the mouth over a church i know nothing off.
166

I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 23:06:11
177: No?

What's your problem with this decision?

How does it affect you? Your family? Please explain.
167

wayne bijlyeerheid,

17/08/2008 23:07:07
#176
I don't subscribe to your views and I would never belong to an organisation that stood by while innocent children were being assaulted.
Where were your cardinals then worrying about underage sex or didn't they think it counts when its same sex assault?
168

wayne bijlyeerheid,

17/08/2008 23:08:51
#179
You seem to think the residents of Larkhall, of which I can see no evidence of any on here, are somehow beneath a perfect being like yourself.
169

I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 23:09:32
181: wouldnt you? Again, you're posting based on assuimptions that are unfounded.

How does this decision affect you, Wayne?
170

wayne bijlyeerheid,

17/08/2008 23:11:07
180 I_N_R_I
How does it affect you if people who do not hold your beliefs wish to hold a discussion?
do you want to make laws to stop us?
That's the jesuit way.
171

I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 23:11:10
182: are you able to substantiate your claim that Thistledhu is perfect?

You do seem to be working hard to confirm his opening post re bigots is correct.
172

I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 23:12:07
184: what impact does this decision have on you?
173

wayne bijlyeerheid,

17/08/2008 23:14:44
#185
Are you his wee herry?
He comes on and makes a blanket statement about a mainly Protestant town, I answered him back with the same sort of language, as I have been to you.
Do you have some sort of priviledge?
You've got nothing to say and you use a lot of space letting the world know.
174

I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 23:15:12
Wayne, 184

Was # 186 too difficult for you?

Do you need to ring yer mammy?
175

I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 23:16:49
187: Larkhall a "mainly Protestant" town? Surely not?

Surely, like the rest of Scotland Larkhall is mainly intolerant secular?
176

I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 23:17:41
Wayne,

could you hurry up a bit?

You're really a bit dim, arent you?
177

Thistledhu,

17/08/2008 23:18:32
my referrence to larkhall was(in the main) a joke remember that thing called a sense of humour?

But thank you for realiseing im perfect (that was a joke as well by the way)

But the main point of my post stands some of the moronic rants have nothing to do with the content of advice given when these inoculations are given it is simply bigotry and bile Scotland's Shame raises its head again.

178

I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 23:18:36
Wayne,

is there anyone there that could help you?

maybe you could find someone with a brain?

You do seem to be struggling!
179

,

17/08/2008 23:19:50
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180

I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 23:20:20
Perfect Thistledhu, 191

Wayne - like others - seems very upset by this decision, but he cant work out why.

Very strange.
181

I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 23:22:35
Slippy, 193

Oh dear....more nonsense. Ho hum.

Various lies and personal insults in your post #193.

Tell me, Slippy:

Can you explain to me how this decision by Scottish Catholics affects you?

Why are decisions re how WE bring up OUR children provoking a response from YOU?

Is there no limit to your intolerance?
182

I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 23:24:15
Wayne,

Hello?

Hello hello?

Phone a friend?
183

Thistledhu,

17/08/2008 23:41:20
To the subject itself my thoughts are this;
it would be and is wrong for a "CHILD" school to be taught something that is against their parents wishes.

However we have to realise we live in a modern world that reduces childhood by the day

there is no easy answer.

but people do have Faiths and should be allowed the god given freedom protected by the Brave to follow that faith
184

I_N_R_I,

17/08/2008 23:56:17
Thistledhu, 197

And mine....

Looking back on the posts here it's hard to imagine finding such a collection of ignorant, ill informed, bigoted and stupid posts assembled on one page!

I'm seeing various angry reactions based on IGNORANCE rather than reality.

Scottish Catholics are well aware of all the all the unpleasant side effects of sex: AIDS, HIV, STDs etc.

Some believe these dangers are best handled by accepting that fornication is inevitable and teach wee girls re "protection". That's their prerogative.

We believe there's another way and are entitled to educate OUR CHILDREN in OUR beliefs whether the intolerant seculars like it or not.

We teach our children about love and respect. We teach them about right & wrong. We teach them about morals and choices. We teach them the joys of sex. The rights and responsibilities.

We teach our wee girls to abstain from sex. We teach them that fornication and promiscuity are wrong. We teach them that whilst they're under 16 it's illegal too. A man who fornicates with a 14 year old girl can be convicted of rape and put on a sex offenders register - she cannot provide consent to sex.

Now, many of you may disagree with our beliefs. Fair enough - I disagree with yours! But we WILL bring up OUR CHILDREN the way we choose - just as YOU bring up your children YOUR way.

Efforts to impose the will of others on the way I choose to bring up MY children are deeply disturbing.

Civil and religious liberty is a right within our democracy. Perhaps those against such freedoms should look closely at China. Is that what you want?

We enjoy sex too.
185

iainy,

Glasgow 18/08/2008 00:01:45
#198
not china, try south america, try spain, try italy.
#171 & #178
The universal strategy of the Catholic Church is to exercise secular rule without responsibility. The church like to have its core ideals inflicted on others who are not catholics, its baleful machinations in countries of south america are for all to see where women cannot have abortions and if anyone assists for whatever reason (rape, incest)they to can be proscecuted. Also in Italy the church opposed and influenced successfuly the legislation to give equality to other faiths with catholicism. And in Spain opposed the constuction of a mosque to serve the spiritual needs of muslems in that country.
186

Shamus,

Glasgow 18/08/2008 00:04:09
173# Maybe a child is clever with an open mind and has avoided the brainwashing (if that is possible) The parents are religious. Who decides!
187

Tom More,

Canada 18/08/2008 00:05:39
If we are talking about young women not getting all the information they need, how about these statistics on Gardasil. From Judicial Watch (U.S.) based on the last two years of Gardasil use in America: 9749 adverse reactions; 21 reported deaths; 78 severe outbreaks of genital warts; 6 cases of Guillaime-Barre syndrome, and ten miscarriages. In Australia, 1000 adverse reactions, and a study by that country's Therapeutic Goods Administration investigating three known cases of women developing pancreatitis after receiving the vaccine.
188

I_N_R_I,

18/08/2008 00:07:02
iainy, 199

fascinating post.

Had you run out of truthful stuff?

Surely the countries you cite are democracies?

And the laws made by democratically elected governments?

Now, tell me, what's your problem with democracy?
189

Thistledhu,

18/08/2008 00:07:23
199 in a word rubish spain (wrongly in my veiw the age of consent is 13) look at the problem not your own Bigotry
190

I_N_R_I,

18/08/2008 00:09:06
Shamus, 200

Brainwashing? Really?

What are the chances of brainwashing a brash, confident, street wise adolescent in Bishopbriggs in 2008? Get real, ya diddy.
191

Thistledhu,

18/08/2008 00:10:02
tom at last a good point based on thought and information.
192

I_N_R_I,

18/08/2008 00:12:24
Tom, 201: interesting, frightening, thanks.
193

iainy,

Glasgow 18/08/2008 00:13:19
#198
`We teach our children about love and respect. We teach them about right & wrong. We teach them about morals and choices. We teach them the joys of sex. The rights and responsibilities.'
This seems to be done by keeping them in ignorance. Yes thy have rights and responsibilities you have no right to have them in ignorance when they come to exercise these rights but do have the responsibility to equip them with the means to live happy and healthy lives understanding the consequences of all actions they choose to take thus are able to take responsible decisions about their lives as they live them.
194

I_N_R_I,

18/08/2008 00:17:16
iainy, 207

We could debate forever the pros and cons of how to handle this dilemma.

However....key question is:

Do you accept that the upbringing of MY children is MY responsibility, and that I'm entitled to make those choices for MY children by MY beliefs?
195

Thistledhu,

18/08/2008 00:18:17
iany could i challenge you without returning to bigotry or reference to any church to lay out your argument
196

I_N_R_I,

18/08/2008 00:21:34
T, 209: his argument is fascinating. The levels of ignorance on this topic are truly stunning.
197

I_N_R_I,

18/08/2008 00:24:01
iainy,

I wish you could meet my 15 year old.

Your notion of keeping them in ignorance is truly absurd.

We EDUCATE them. Really EDUCATE them.
198

iainy,

Glasgow 18/08/2008 00:24:46
#202
yes democraticaly elected goverments all, the influence comes after the elections when individual legislators are threatened by the church with punishments such as excommunication if they do not conform to the dictates of the church. Forgetting of course that said legislators are representatives of the people of the country and not there as an individual. That of course corrupts democracy and can be counterproductive because we the people will then have to ask the religion candidates when it should be none of our business.
199

I_N_R_I,

18/08/2008 00:29:05
iainy, 212

Oh dear....that's a bad dose you've got! LOL!

200

iainy,

Glasgow 18/08/2008 00:37:36
#208
not sure about that one. We live in a society and so we have to equip our children live and thrive within it. But societies can get it wrong and so yes a better job may be done by parents. But some parents may wish to instill views that may be harmful to the child in that society or harmful to other members of society. This reads inchoate and probably is but the hard answer to the question you pose is no, but that would have to have qualification possibly too many to make exercise worthwhile. It would be easier if we all had the same ethic, but that would be totalitarian.
201

I_N_R_I,

18/08/2008 00:40:13
iainy, 214

IF I'm NOT to be responsible for the upbringing of MY children, who is?
202

Thistledhu,

18/08/2008 00:43:49
perhaps not being responsible for the upbringing of your own children explains the crowds of drunken teenagers on our streets as we speak
203

I_N_R_I,

18/08/2008 00:49:07
T, 216

but iainy does appear much more concerned that I might be teaching my decent, polite, well spoken, well educated lot that Christianity stuff rather than the drunken, drugged up, knife and gun wielding losers that roam our streets. How very strange.
204

Shamus,

Glasgow 18/08/2008 00:52:37
204# Diddies is a good Scottish expression.
205

I_N_R_I,

18/08/2008 00:53:29
Shamus, 218

Yes, and very apt for describing your contribution.
206

,

18/08/2008 01:37:24
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207

Jeanne J.,

FL, US 18/08/2008 12:28:07
Wow. Isn't it interesting to see that terrorists aren't confined to the Middle East, but arise from every fundamentalist religion. . . IMHO, it shows a lack of faith to be such a hardheaded, relentless, and judgmental blowhard instead of simply living your life as a shining example of your so-called superior morality.

Does this miserable loon derail every thread here?
208

Here Today HBOS Tomorrow,

18/08/2008 13:40:15
Given the endless cowing to the RCC on almost any issue I may end up canceling my SNP membership. I never joined Labour as it was too much in the pocket of the RCC and it seems the SNP are going the same way - yet again only to win votes.
209

voltaire's janny,

18/08/2008 14:10:39
#3 as usual talking mince.

It is true that this programme was not the best use of public money. The jab will save a mere 14 lives per 1,000,000 population. In that population 200 will die from other cancers and 1500 from heart disease.

The jab is effective against the two most common variants of the virus that cause cancer. It provides no protection against the others. It may prevent some girls from attending for screening due to false sense of security.

As a parent of a 14 year old girl, the decision is plain. It works and is safe and the money to develop it, inappropriately or no, is a sunk cost. My daughter will get it.

When the silver sleeved spotty oiks start chapping our door they'll get their asres kicked for sure, but I am under no illusions. Within four years of beginning sexual activity most people have been exposed to HPV.

Odds are good nothing will happen, but this small risk can be removed, so why not?

210

I_N_R_I,

18/08/2008 14:38:19
Jeanne, 221

Thank you for that tirade of personal insults.

It adds nothing to the debate but tells us everything we need to know about you.

211

I_N_R_I,

18/08/2008 14:39:02
222: I'm sure SNP will be devastated at losing you.
212

,

18/08/2008 19:06:03
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213

Stornoway Sceptic,

Isle of Lewis 18/08/2008 19:32:22
226: Thanks for that link. Such a well researched, rational, balanced piece of journalism. Just what I expect from "conspiracyplanet.com".

Please take your dangerous, science-free junk elsewhere.
214

I_N_R_I,

18/08/2008 19:34:29
227: Oh, my affection is for the soft, smooth and gentle form of a beautiful woman, my wife.
215

Stornoway Sceptic,

Isle of Lewis 18/08/2008 19:51:42
124 INRI: At the risk of asking the obvious, do you really believe that catching a horrible, fatal disease is suitable punishment for indulging in pre-marital sex, and that the threat of such should be kept as a disincentive from youngsters upsetting your own twisted morality? I think I already know the answer.
216

I_N_R_I,

18/08/2008 20:02:42
twisted morality, 230

I'll add yours to the list of ignorant and ill informed posts.

My answer to your question is: No! Read my post #198. Girls who abide by the teachings of the Church need worry not. IMHO, teenage girls who choose to go down the road of fornicating vigorously (even with condoms) are at far higher risk of unwanted pregnancy, abortion, STDs, etc - all things that might ruin their young lives.

The lad who fornicates with the young girl under 16 risks a conviction for rape and being placed on a sex register.
217

Stornoway Sceptic,

Isle of Lewis 18/08/2008 20:08:50
231

Twisted morality: "Girls who abide by the teachings of the Church need worry not"

I got my answer. Thanks.
218

,

18/08/2008 20:13:44
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219

I_N_R_I,

18/08/2008 20:14:26
twisted morality, 232:

I'm always pleased to help enlighten the ignorant.

It was just kinda quaint to see one who advocates lessons for 12 & 13 year old girls to enable their sexuality to be realised describe ME as having a twisted morality. LOL!

Surely the course YOU plot for wee girls is not only illegal, but immoral and places wee girls at risk of pregnancy, abnortion and STDs.

The twisted morality is, in fact, yours.
220

I_N_R_I,

18/08/2008 20:23:49
Horrible, 233

Oh, diddums, is my language is upsetting you, sweetie?

And is it "old fashioned"? Shucks! Oh, that I were "modern" and could educate 12 & 13 year old girls re fornication......oh, oh, would you like some soft and sweet expression to describe the act? Were they really "making love"?

Listen, (13 year old) sweetie,if you're gonna go and "do it" with Shuggie, make sure he wears one of these?

Oooooh...please!!! You may have the morals of mongrels, but please dont impose them on others.

This "modern" way of life is soooo enlightened isnt it? So swish and dandy?

Unwanted pregnancies, wasted lives, multiple abortions, HIV, AIDS, STDs, and openly active homosexual bishops....oooh, ooooh, isnt it all soooo modern, dandy and great?
221

,

18/08/2008 20:31:44
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222

I_N_R_I,

18/08/2008 20:37:41
Horrible, 236

I wouldnt dream of imposing my views on others.

I aint that sort of guy.

I'll leave that sort of behaviour for the intolerant seculars.

Look back at the discussions. I have consistently said that I insist on the right to bring up MY children the way I choose.

I disagree with the intolerant seculars but respect THEIR right to bring up THEIR children THEIR way.

So, to summarise, your quip in #236 is nonsense.
223

Frank Brady,

18/08/2008 21:03:41
I find it odd (and censorious) that the Scotsman refused to publish my post today defending the Catholic INRI's right as a parent to object to the overweening state's attempt to tell him what he should do as a parent who objects to having his child innoculated.

Perhaps it was something to do with my use of the phrase "The Culture of Death," in which the pagan bureaucrats of the modern state swim. Or, even my reference to the fact that some of the rabid anti-Catholic posters who attack INRI are allowed on Scotsman boards to spew out their filth against the Catholic Church, and the Scotsman allows them, in the 21st century, to get away with this. But probably it was my reference to the modern, relativist-thinking, lacking-in-morals, liberal fascist state seeking to build the unbuildable utopia of the loony left(some of whose members appear to haunt this board), by trying to perfect the unperfectable---that fallen creature called man, with all his lusts (which he craves to satisfy--morality be damned)and warts.

The Scotsman's censorship of my post may indicate support for such thinking. It certainly smacks of prejudice.
224

I_N_R_I,

18/08/2008 21:18:28
Thanks Frank, 238. Interesting post. Such stories do appear to bring out the same old intolerants on this site. I guess it's a reflection of real life.

Many of my best friends think *religion* (and particularly Catholicism) is nonsense. I respect their view just as I expect them to respect MY choice to believe in JC as our Lord & Saviour.

Isnt it a great shame that so many here cannot respect the right of others to hold views different from their own? Some cannot even accept MY right to bring up MY children the way I choose. Shame on them.

I think the Church has got this one right: subject to parental consent girls CAN be innoculated, but it will NOT be accompanied by teaching that could be interpreted as a green light to fornicate.

See this link:

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1063046_fines_shame_of_jet_drama_mum

A girl from Salford. Seems like she's in a bit of a mess? Unmarried with two children? Multiple partners? Multiple abortions? Various STDs? Unemployed? Unemployable? Cant work, wont work? Criminal record? Publicly disgraced? Humiliated?

One wonders...

Maybe she wasnt made aware of the risks of extra marital sex? Perhaps she didnt know about condoms?

Or....perhaps she wasnt educated about morals?






225

,

18/08/2008 22:37:21
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226

I_N_R_I,

18/08/2008 23:10:35
Horrible, 240

Your opening statement re girls attending Catholic Schools is part right. Subject to parental consent, they will get the vaccine but it will not be accompanied by advice that could be construed as licence to fornicate.

It would be naive to suggest that girls - any girls - will not be able to access information re condoms.

I guess you'd much prefer that the Catholic voice here were silenced. Another liberty you seek to remove. Shame.

The intolerant secular seeks to impose his will on others in society. No objection from you.

I present here a view different from yours, and you seek censorship. Shame.

Catholic parents choose a Catholic education for their children. Through our Catholic Schools, our children benefit from an outstanding education that includes core curriculum items & moral guidance in the context of our religious beliefs.

Many ignorant intolerant seculars refer to this as brainwashing - though they are never able to substantiate their claim.

This is yet another area where intolerant seculars try to interfere in the way ordinary, decent, tax paying Catholics raise our children. Such interference will not be tolerated.

As they approach their teens, children tend to form their own views re the religious education provided by parents, School, and Church. Some accept; other reject - fair enough - their choice.

I see various intolerant seculars making various attempts to TELL me how to bring up MY family.

I have made no attempt to TELL others how to bring up theirs. I'll leave that for the bigots.
227

I_N_R_I,

18/08/2008 23:18:29
240

****What about the the non catholic girls?...or has the catholic church dictated that all of these girls should not be given any further information on condoms etc?....please tell me that I am wrong....****

You are wrong.
228

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18/08/2008 23:48:41
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229

Frank Brady,

19/08/2008 00:55:38
While I can sympathise with INRI's attempts to teach the unteachable pagans on this board about Church doctrine (particularly as that pertains to life), I fear he is not going to be successful in shining a light into the dark recesses of the Scottish anti-Catholic mind, and having these poor lost souls (of whom there appears still to be so many)awaken to why God created and sustains them.

Brainwashed as they have been by their intellectual, so-called expert, superiors in emptying the language of any meaning, they worship at the "altars" of their own "tolerance", "non-judgmentalism, "diversity" et al, until a disagreeing opinion like yours (or the Church)arises, when they begin foaming at the mouth in their intolerance. But hasn't that always been the way of the God-hating left(from the French Revolution through the Soviet Union and China to today's Scotland), inheriting their pride from Adam, and worshipping the Father of Lies, a.k.a. Satan?

Having, over the last half century or so, hijacked the modern intrusive state run by some of his lackeys, even though Christ defeated him on Calvary, he will never give up. Particularly when he has so much empty-headed, weak fodder to use as appears to read the Scotsman.

And I thought sectarianism was primarily confined to the West of Scotland, with that area's so-called "newspaper of record's" contributors. But isn't there a long tradition of people from Edinburgh, etc., believing themselves to be superior to those from Glasgow and its environs? There doesn't appear to be a dime's worth of difference between the denizens of Morningside and those of Kelvinside. There never has been since the 16th century Protestant Revolt, now followed by militant atheism and secular humanism. We can see the results all around us of these people's flight from God, religion and morality.

230

Jeanne J.,

FL, US 19/08/2008 03:45:12
Re: 237 "I wouldnt dream of imposing my views on others. "

Um. . . then what do you call this endless bleating here (none of it even related to the OT)? Contrary to your apparent assessment of yourself as a great authority, you come across as a two-year-old having a tantrum--hands over ears, stomping in your little circle, and repeating the same garbage. "Lalalala--I can't hear you!"

It's amazing that so few zealots comprehend the fact that displays like this merely serve to drive people further away from what they're trying to promote.

BTW, I was born into a catholic family and escaped it at a young age. I'll take "heathen" over ignorance and lies any day. I'm willing to be you have no clue how much of the catholic mass in particular was taken straight from pagan fertility rites.

Or maybe you do, and that's why you're stuck on the word "fornicate."

231

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19/08/2008 09:38:49
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I_N_R_I,

19/08/2008 10:16:20
Horrible, 243

You call for suppression of views of people with religious views.

Should intolerant seculars be silenced too?
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I_N_R_I,

19/08/2008 10:28:35
Jeanne, 245

So, Catholicism is not for you! Fair enough!

Is it OK with you if I continue with it?

Is it OK with you if I bring up my family the way I choose?

You'll see (if you want to!) various intolerant seculars unashamedly post their bigotry in various posts here.

A vital feature of a liberal democracy is its ability for peoples of different beliefs to live side by side showing respect and tolerance for others.

I ask only that I am allowed to bring up my family the way I choose.

Sundry insults raining down from various bigots show that that my simple quest is too much for the intolerant seculars.
234

I_N_R_I,

19/08/2008 10:33:46
Horrible, 246

No-one asking YOU to buy, Horrible.

We're asking only that we are allowed to practice our beliefs; to educate our children the way we choose.

You confirmed in # 243 your sickening attempt to suppress democracy. The PEOPLE decide, Horrible, ALL THE PEOPLE decide. People can be influenced by talking rice crispies if that they want, Horrible, and you bigots cannot tell us otherwise.

Stop the bigotry, please, it's horrible.
235

Mad Jock,

East Lothian 19/08/2008 10:36:53
Coming a bit late into this one, but here goes.
The idea that educating children about the dangers of unprotected sex leading to promiscuity is about as daft as suggesting that teaching kids about the dangers of crossing the road leads them all to play chicken on a motorway.
As for the suggestion, many posts back, that the small proportion of Catholic Africans contracting AIDS would show that it in the non-Catholic Africans that are ignoring advice on condoms is disengenuous at best. Avery large proportion of clinics and in Africa are run by nuns, who refuse to hand out condoms, or even talk about them. When they travel out to the villages on health visits, they leave the condoms behind, assuming that they haven't already destroyed them. This comes after some very senior member of the Vatican decreed that the AIDS virus can pass through a condom, and that they are therefore worthless in the prevention of AIDS.
We are seeing religious dogma interfering with people's health and wellbeing all over the religious spectrum. According to some Islamic clerics (certainly in the minority), clitoral circumcision of pre-teen girls is necessary, because if they no longer enjoy sex, then they won't be promiscuous.
In any event, surely the Catholic Church's position regarding additional education post inocculation is discriminatory, and should therefore be reviewed.
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I_N_R_I,

19/08/2008 11:02:01
Mad Jock, 250

Yes, I guess your chosen pseudonym is quite appropriate.

So, you disagree with the views of the Church! Fair enough! You do your thang and we'll do ours?

Let's agree: unprotected sex will lead to unwanted pregnancies, abortions, STDs and misery.

Two approaches:

1/ teach 12 & 13 year old girls how to protect against these dangers whilst fornicating

2/ teach youths that under age fornication is wrong, immoral, and illegal. Men\boys fornicating with under age girls are committing rape and will be placed on a sex register.

You do your thang and we'll do ours?

AFRICA

Two countries. Similar demographics and same incidence of AIDS.

Country A liberally hands out condoms and makes education re sex education universally available.

Country B is a devout Catholic country and their population respect and follow the teachings of the Church.

Go back 10\15\20 years later. In which country has HIV\AIDS flourished?

I see you too feel you know better and feel qualified to tell others how to run their lives. It's a common feature of intolerant secularism.

Have you ever considered the possibility that YOU are ignorant, not those who choose to live their lives in a religious way?
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19/08/2008 11:13:09
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19/08/2008 11:18:48
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I_N_R_I,

19/08/2008 11:28:53
Horrible, 252

As explained previously, the Catholic hierarchy made a decision entirely consistent with the teachings of the Church and the expectation and aspirations of Catholic parents. Please do try to keep up.

The Catholic Church has no desire to impose it's belief son others, whether Prods, Jews, heathens, or whatever.

Intolerant seculars have already imposed their will on ordinary decent people through scandalous legislation that was passed re FORCING Catholics - against their conscience and beliefs - to have a child adopted by homosexuial parents.

You plainly did not like my question re the attitude of Elders of the Presbyterian Church to a Bishop fornicating with Raymond shortly before Sunday Service.

I guess my provocative quip was too graphic for you.

I do preach tolerance here, but please do not see that as carte blanche. I have certain morals and standrads and certain things are abhorrent to me.

A few examples: under age fornication, practising homosexuals adopting wee boys and girls.

You may choose to be liberal, dandy and moderne, sweetie, but I have morals and standards.

The answer is easy - and I've said it many many times: you do your thang, and I'll do mine. Please DONT interfere in my hard earned liberties.
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I_N_R_I,

19/08/2008 11:36:06
H, 253

The situation in the Phillipines is ridiculous....

Those following the teachings of the Church need not fear HIV\AIDS.

Fornicators, and particularly homosexual fornicators have sooooooooooooo much to fear. Whilst so many of them have become accustomed to liberal promiscuity, they do not always wear condoms when they fornicate.

They dont like them. They forget. They get overcome by the moment. Etc. Their liberal free sex free love habits are delivering a terrible consequence.

Free love - free sex - liberal ideologies - HIV\AIDS.

All sooooo avoidable.
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19/08/2008 12:16:31
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I_N_R_I,

19/08/2008 12:30:54
Horrible, 256

You now choose to avoid the homosexual debate - a bit bizarre since YOU raised the topic in the first place.

It is a CLEAR example of where INTOLERANT SECULARS have successfully IMPOSED their views on others.

I have read your article, Horrible - it's like dozens I've read before.

Liberal, free love, free sex wise guys have unleashed an appalling holocaust that they are are struggling to deal with.

They resort to trying to bully others who do not share their obsession with their oh so chic, moderne, trendy fornicating (homosexual and hetersosexual) ways.

You lot created this holocaust, Horrible, so dont go blaming decent people who do not share your lust for free sex.
243

I_N_R_I,

19/08/2008 12:37:13
Horrible, 256

INTERFERENCE

The Church - all Churches - like everyone else on our society is ENTITLED to particpate in our democracy.

The people decide.

Yet again we see your sinister efforts to curtail our democracy by limiting the participation of those who have different views from you.

Quite sinister. Quite evil.
244

Em,

19/08/2008 12:38:20
Cankers.

With regard to countries suffering from AIDS problems, surely you can understand that the only sure way to avoid spreading/contracting aids would be to refrain from taking part in activities where this is possible, the Catholic church does not advise people who have aids, to have sex without using condoms, it does instead advise against sex altogether if you have the aids virus.
If this advice is ignored and people who have aids decide to have sex anyway then they may aswell use a condom as they are not following the advice of the church in the first place, incidentally it is also against church teaching to partake in activities that are potentially hazardous and could be considered as taking unnecessary risks and not treating life with the sanctity and respect it deserves.

Regarding the topic in question, there is nothing to prevent schools from adding their own choice of material to compliment the information already provided about the HPV vaccine, it would however be unfair to say the least, to impose one set of guidance materials on all schools regardless of belief. Catholic schools are not demanding that all schools should be taught according to the teachings of the Catholic church, they merely seek to ensure that the teachings and beliefs of their own schools are not undermined by the forced teaching of material that flies in the face of their religious beliefs.
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I_N_R_I,

19/08/2008 12:52:26
Em, 259

Thank you for a very sensible post.

Might I make an additional observation to complement your observations?

Blaming the big bad Church for the holocaust in Africa relies on individuals:

--- being influenced by the Church's teaching re condoms, but
--- ignoring it's teaching on fornication.

It just doesnt make sense.
246

Scottie,

South Africa 19/08/2008 14:07:53
12 and 13 year old girls shouldn't be having sex in the first place and definitely not unprotected sex. At that age, whilst they may be able to have children, it's not likely that they'll be "enjoying" sex either.

I know it happens but children - and at 12 you're still a child - should be advised against it by their wiser peers, their parents and their schools.

Imo it is just going to increase the spread of STIs generally which is horrific.
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19/08/2008 15:05:27
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19/08/2008 15:16:38
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I_N_R_I,

19/08/2008 16:16:22
Horrible, 262

All I know of you is the posts you have made here - and that is sufficient to justify my comment about you.

Yes, the things I wrote about homosexual clergy were vulgar and disgusting - but that is hardly MY fault. My words were intended to bring to life the harsh reality of the homosexual act. Looks like I succeeded.

Animals are powerless over their procreative urges. Your various descriptions have sugguested that WE are powerless - that the sexual urge is all consuming.

Again, you impose your jungle based beliefs on others. I believe that humans are capable of applying their morals (in cases where they have some) and NOT participating in fornication; rejecting your liberal free love promiscuity that is wrecking various societies.

This is what separates us from animals - well, some of us anyway.

Again you object to my words are they bring to life the enormity of the problem you lot have created. Holocaust does seem appropriate to me - your filth will kill millions.

I dont know how HIV\AIDS started either - but I do know that your liberal ways have played a major part in it's rapid acceleration.

HIV\AIDS without your free love, free sex, rampant homosexuality is liberal ways would be MUCH smaller now.

Had people in Africa, Philippines, and elsewhere abided by the teachings of the Church then HIV\AIDS would have been cose to zero.

Through your immoral filth your sort grew HIV\AIDS, Horrible. Those who follow the teachings of the Church have little to fear from the scourge your sort grew.
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Em,

19/08/2008 16:24:58
Cankers #263

Like I said earlier, there is nothing to prevent non denominational schools being provided with teaching material advising the use of condoms, provided parents agree that this is acceptable, but to roll out a blanket of material to all schools while disregarding the fact that many parents would not want this material taught to their children is quite unacceptable.

The fact that the Catholic church wishes to prevent it's schools from being forced to promote material that it finds offensive does not affect what material is to be provided to other schools.

This is yet another attack on Catholic schools making the Catholic church appear as the enemy who seeks to impose their views on other schools, when the reality is it is not seeking to influence the content of teaching material in non Catholic schools, but instead wishes to safeguard the integrity of it's own schools.
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I_N_R_I,

19/08/2008 16:30:55


Horrible, 263

Maybe I've overestimated you?

Your response to Em's sensible post is really quite stupid.

I guess I should not be surprised that your level of ignorance co-exists with that level of stupidity.

FACT: those who follow the teachings of the Church have little to fear re HIV\AIDS.

FACT: those who follow a free love path will be at risk from the various perils: STDs, HIV, unwanted pregnancies, abortions, etc

Not because of any inherent weakness in the condom - but because your condom strategy DOES NOT WORK!

People dont like them. People forget them. People forget them. People say - let's just go a bit then we'll stop - but dont stop. When the moment is right for luuuuuuuuuuuuvvvv - it's kinda not good to say - " hold on a mo, my lover, til I put my condom on"

That's why your strategy is a road to disaster - littered with millions of avoidable deaths and millions more wasted lives.

Please read Em's well informed comments re the messages available to children of other Schools, Horrible - before you make yourself look any more stupid.

There is absolutely NOTHING to stop Headteachers, Teachers of other schools, or parents themselves providing a lengthy, detailed description of ways for 12 year old girls to have sex and avoid pregnancy, STDs, etc.

Powerful information to give pre-pubescant girls and those in the early stages of puberty, dont you think?

Armed with this powerful information, I'm sure some of those wee girls might want to give it a try (especially when they know those condoms prevent all the abd things)
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I_N_R_I,

19/08/2008 16:31:08
* bad
253

I_N_R_I,

19/08/2008 16:34:03
My post 264:

"close to zero"
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19/08/2008 16:37:23
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19/08/2008 16:52:50
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I_N_R_I,

19/08/2008 17:04:02
Horrible, 269

Your apparent surrender (heavily disguised under a barrage on personal insults) is no surprise to me.

Your attempt to portray me as some sort of weirdo is the kind of diversionary tactic I would expect from your sort as your ego suffers from your crushing defeat.

I'm an ordinary, decent, law abiding, family man, living and working in the UK. I've been happily married for 16 years, and have three lovely weans.

Your various efforts to demonsise me or render me some sort of weirdo are the fare I would expect of an intolerant secular like you.

The male homosexual act does disgust me - as I'm sure it disgusts the vast majority of heterosexual males.

But I tolerate and respect homosexuals and number a few amongst my closest friends.

My particular query is re the suitability of active homosexuals to deliver the teachings of Jesus Christ from the altar - hence my provocative quip re the homosexual Bishop's activity prior to Sunday Service.

We both know that the Elders of the Church would be HORRIFIED at the prospect of their Preacher fornicating vigorously prior to the Sunday Service.

Guess what you can do with your horrible Sodom & Gomorrah.
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I_N_R_I,

19/08/2008 17:08:16
Horrible, 270

Sheeeesh - you're determined to make a fool of yourself!!! LOL!!!

Your bigotry & badness are eating you alive!

As previously advised:-

There is absolutely NOTHING to stop Headteachers, Teachers of other schools, or parents themselves providing a lengthy, detailed description of ways for 12 year old girls to have sex and avoid pregnancy, STDs, etc.

Powerful information to give pre-pubescant girls and those in the early stages of puberty, dont you think?

Armed with this powerful information, I'm sure some of those wee girls might want to give it a try (especially when they know those condoms prevent all the bad things)
258

Frank Brady,

19/08/2008 17:14:46
It is odd, indeed, that the secular humanist,anti-Catholic bigots on this board who prattle on so much about "rights": (i) appear to deliberatly forget, that even in the Masonic-inspired U.S. constitution, the first right memtioned is that to life (tell that to the 500 million babies whose murders in the womb they have supported over the last half century or so); and (ii) they never mention duties or responsibilities--they are very selective in their vocabularies. I guess that's why these relativist, extreme left wing "thinkers," who just want to do anything and everything which indulges particularly their disordered sexual appetites, have so much trouble with the Catholic Church and people like INRI, who actually talk about responsibility (particularly regarding immature children).

One of the liberal fascists' (some of whom appear to lurk on this board)goddesses is Hillary Clinton--the woman who thought it takes a village (i.e. the intrusive and overweening state)to bring up a child. When we look at the mess the pagan state has made of so many other things in the recent past, bowing, for example, to the pressure exerted on it by the practitioners of the unnatural and unhealthy homosexual perversion, it is no wonder that people with families, like INRI, fear for their children's future and health.

HIV-AIDs, btw, was brought to the West from Africa by a French-Canadian homosexual air steward on the prowl for new experiences.

As is usual for the militant atheists and supporters of all that is wrong and immoral in society "Horrible Cankers," unable to make any rational points in his anti-Catholic diatribes and attacks on INRI, now appears to be threatening to pick up his marbles and return to his/her solitary isolation in the gutter.As leftists are notorious for telling lies we can only hope that in this case he/she is actually going to keep his/her promise. We'll wait and see. After all, hope springs eternal.
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19/08/2008 17:41:55
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19/08/2008 17:54:56
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I_N_R_I,

19/08/2008 18:16:23
Horrible, 274

Another anti Catholicism tirade of hatred - this time against the Holy Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Can you just explain to us what impact our confessional habits have on you?

You're choosing to perceive hatred and superiority.

Then make yet another unprovoked attack on Catholic beliefs - sweeping statements mostly based on your ignorance.

Still cant see how this impacts you!

I guess your various attacks are just inspired by bigotry and badness.

That's the way of the intolerant secular.

Ordinary, decent people here have exposed you, Horrible, for the sick bigot you are. Be ashamed. Be very very ashamed. Stop the bigotry. Stop the badness. It's harmful.
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I_N_R_I,

19/08/2008 18:21:29
Horrible, 275

Sheeeesh - the lengths some people will go to to stop your shagtastic holocaust.

The real holes in your flawed strategy were detailed above. Your liberal shagtastic free love free sex orgy is killing millions. Shame on you.
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19/08/2008 19:07:03
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I_N_R_I,

19/08/2008 19:32:26
Horrible, 278

Ah, freedom of choice! FANTASTIC!

Just a pity you're so wedded to intolerance.

So, Catholiocs dont want their 12 year old girls trained re using condoms - DEAL WITH IT YA BIGOT!
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I_N_R_I,

19/08/2008 21:27:29
Looking back on the posts here it's hard to imagine finding such a collection of ignorant, ill informed, bigoted and stupid posts assembled on one page!

I'm seeing various angry reactions based on IGNORANCE rather than reality. Scottish Catholics are well aware of all the all the unpleasant side effects of sex: AIDS, HIV, STDs etc.

Some believe these dangers are best handled by accepting that fornication is inevitable and teach wee girls re "protection". That's their prerogative.

We believe there's another way and are entitled to educate OUR CHILDREN in OUR beliefs whether the intolerant seculars like it or not. We teach our children about love and respect. We teach them about right & wrong; morals and choices; the joys of sex; the rights and responsibilities.

We teach our wee girls to abstain from sex. We teach them that fornication and promiscuity are wrong. We teach them that whilst they're under 16 it's illegal too. A man who fornicates with a 14 year old girl can be convicted of rape and put on a sex offenders register - she cannot provide consent to sex.

Now, many of you may disagree with our beliefs. Fair enough - I may disagree with yours! But we WILL bring up OUR CHILDREN the way we choose - just as YOU bring up your children YOUR way.

Efforts to impose the will of others on the way I choose to bring up MY children are deeply disturbing. Civil and religious liberty is a right within our democracy.

Perhaps those against such freedoms should look closely at China.
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20/08/2008 00:03:06
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Frank Brady,

20/08/2008 00:38:34
When "Cankers" (what an enlightening monicker) in #269 said: "I will have no further communication with you on this topic," and then within less than an hour (in #274) breaks that promise, and spews out more filthy hatred from his very disordered mind, that is an example of the lying modus operandi of your typical pagan member of the loony left. So, as expected, my hope was dashed.

When he continues with his condom-supporting rubbish, maybe he's telling people he's taking kickbacks from a manufacturer or maybe he's even a peddler of them.

In the spirit of the lost modernists, we should all have compassion (in the right sense of that word) for this vey strange creature.
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I_N_R_I,

20/08/2008 11:48:22
Frank, 282

Yes, the promise of an almighty Canker sulk was entirely welcome but as these guys are pathalogical liars I knew it rather unlikely he would honour his promise.

#281 is a fascinating post. He plainly recognises that he has lost badly the argument re the given topic and has deteriorated simply to this usual tirade against Catholics and Catholicism.

His last few contributions have relied largely on his extensive library of links to websites with various negative articles about the world's largest faith.

Bigots like Cankers do serve a purpose though. Claims that anti Catholic bigotry in Scotland are in decline are probably true, but Cankers posts here are proof that bigotry & badness do still thrive amongst the warped minds of a bitter few, as they thrash around on the web to seek justifications for the deep rooted bigotry that dominates their very being.

Scotland can and will develop and grow, but only if we are able to consign this sort of bigot and bigotry to history.

And now I address my sick friend, Cankers: we have seen here the turmoil you are suffering. Your pain; your anguish; your bigotry, bitterness and your badness. Give it up, my friend. It threatens to eat you alive.

I'll light a candle and ask the Blessed Virgin to pray for you. God Bless you, Cankers. + .

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20/08/2008 12:36:16
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Em,

20/08/2008 12:45:51
Cankers #278

Re your link to the condoms4life website run by Catholics for choice, this group is operating outwith the teachings of the Catholic church and are actively promoting an agenda which runs counter to the faith they claim to represent. Perhaps they are naive and have little understanding of why the Catholic church holds the position it does on contraception, however my personal opinion is that this group are not actually Catholic at heart, there are many cases documented where communist groups have been organised to infiltrate areas of the church in order to promote a seperate agenda.
Here's an article I read recently which highlights some of the reasons the Catholic church holds it's position on contraception.

By Christopher West

This July 25th marks the 40th anniversary of one of the most controversial papal documents in history: Paul VI’s encyclical Humanae Vitae which reaffirmed the traditional Christian teaching on the immorality of contraception. If you have wrestled with this teaching, believe me, I can relate. Years ago I almost left the Church over it. Forty years of perspective provide an opportunity to take another look. That’s what I’ll be doing in [the next] several columns.

You may have noticed above that I said “traditional Christian teaching” on contraception. Only in the last 50-70 years has this been viewed primarily as a “Catholic” issue. Until 1930, all Christian bodies stood together in their condemnation of any attempt to sterilize the marital act. That year, the Anglican Church broke with more than nineteen hundred years of uninterrupted Christian teaching. When the pill debuted in the early 1960’s, the Catholic Church alone was retaining what in 30 short years had come to be seen as an archaic, even absurd position.

One way to begin understanding the Church’s stance is by “judging the tree by its fruit.” This is what first made me realize that contraception was a much more important issue than I had realized.

Whe
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Em,

20/08/2008 12:51:50
contd...
This is what first made me realize that contraception was a much more important issue than I had realized.

When Margaret Sanger and her followers started pushing contraception in the early 1900’s, wise men and women — and certainly not just Catholics — predicted that severing sex from procreation would eventually lead to sexual and societal chaos. Today’s culture of adultery, divorce, premarital sex, STD’s, out-of-wedlock births, abortion, fatherless children, homosexuality, poverty, crime, drugs, and violence was all foreseen.

What’s the connection with contraception? While today’s societal chaos is certainly complex, the following demonstrates the “inner logic” of contraception’s contribution. People are often tempted to do things they shouldn’t do. Deterrents within nature itself and within society help to curb these temptations and maintain order. For example, what would happen to the crime rate in a given society if jail terms suddenly ceased?

Apply the same logic to sex. People throughout history have been tempted to commit adultery. It’s nothing new. However, one of the main deterrents from succumbing to the temptation has been the fear of pregnancy. What would happen if this natural deterrent were taken away? As history demonstrates, rates of adultery would skyrocket. What’s one of the main causes of divorce? Adultery. Apply the same logic to pre-marital sex. Such behavior has, indeed, skyrocketed. Premarital sex, as a kind of “adultery in advance,” is also a prime indicator of future marital breakdown.

It gets worse. Since no method of contraception is 100% effective, an increase in adultery and pre-marital sex will inevitably lead to an increase in “unwanted pregnancies.” What’s next? So many people think contraception is the solution to the abortion problem. Take a deeper look and you’ll see that that’s like throwing gasoline on a fire to try to put it out. In the final analysis, there is only one reason we have abortion — because me
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Em,

20/08/2008 12:53:32
contd....
— because men and women are having sex without being “open to life.” If this mentality is at the root of abortion, contraception does nothing but foster and afford this mentality.

Not everyone will resort to abortion of course. Some will choose adoption. Other mothers (most) will raise these children by themselves. Hence the number of children who grow up without a father (which has already been increased by the rise in divorce) will be compounded. And a culture of “fatherless” children inevitably becomes a culture of poverty, crime, drugs, and violence. All of these social ills compound exponentially from generation to generation since “fatherless” children are also much more likely to have out-of-wedlock births and, if they marry at all, divorce.

What about homosexuality? Our culture is impotent to resist the “gay agenda” because we have already accepted its basic premise with contraception — the reduction of sex to the exchange of pleasure. When openness to life is no longer an intrinsic part of the sexual equation, why does sexual behavior have to be with the opposite sex?

Forty years after the release of Humanae Vitae, many people are beginning to see that the Church might not be crazy after all.

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Billious43,

Glasgow 20/08/2008 14:00:01
Em:-
"Today’s culture of adultery, divorce, premarital sex, STD’s, out-of-wedlock births, abortion, fatherless children, homosexuality, poverty, crime, drugs, and violence was all foreseen."
Yeah 'cos people were different in the 'olden days'. They didn't even have sex back then (see Philip Larkin poem for approximate date).
Oh for goodness sake grow-up, the children of our country need protected from these insane bigots that would condemn them just for being born (original sin anyone?)
As fools like you fall for this smokescreen by condemning other ordinary people for their human nature and being a bit different from you, the real predators that create this problem are laughing all the way to the bank (OK they own the bank, but you get the drift).
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Em,

20/08/2008 14:20:37
#288

"They didn't even have sex back then"

Don't kid yourself, do you think sex is a modern invention and only people of the modern world enjoy it?

I see throughout your rant you make no attempt to disagree with any of the points I've made but instead you prefer to use a combination of nonsensical drivel interspersed with the odd tantrum of insults.
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20/08/2008 16:02:07
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20/08/2008 16:16:28
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I_N_R_I,

20/08/2008 16:24:52
Psssssst...Cankers...sshhh...

Just pretend you didnt read the stuff about huge increases in the numbers of unwanted pregnancies, abortions, STDs, HIV\AIDS, wasted lives, misery, masses of single parents, absent fathers, multiple fathers, same sex parenting, breakdown of numerous societies.

It's not happening, right? It's all religionist propaganda. We're all having a shagtastic time and there are no nasty side effects!

Errrr...right.
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I_N_R_I,

20/08/2008 16:38:22
Yoo hoo.....Cankers....

I lifted the following passage from Em's excellent # 286:

"When Margaret Sanger and her followers started pushing contraception in the early 1900’s, wise men and women — and certainly not just Catholics — predicted that severing sex from procreation would eventually lead to sexual and societal chaos. Today’s culture of adultery, divorce, premarital sex, STD’s, out-of-wedlock births, abortion, fatherless children, homosexuality, poverty, crime, drugs, and violence was all foreseen."
_____________________________________________________

Wise people foresaw the catasrophic effects in the early 1900's - but here we are 100 years later with the appalling consequences of the liberal, shagtastic mindset played out in front of us, but you cannot see it.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.
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I_N_R_I,

20/08/2008 16:52:35
Now, Cankers,

you tell us that you answer to no god, you are sexual, and that you are not a baby machine.....all your prerogative!

So you're OK! Great!!!

But please do recognise the consequences of the liberal shagtastic world you advocate.

Whether in Africa, Philipines, or Edinburgh the price of your liberal, free love, free sex, shagtastic, chic, and moderne world is high for the whole of society, and particularly for those who suffer greatly from the consequences.
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Mad Jock,

East Lothian 20/08/2008 17:03:00
Humans were having sex out of wedlock, and without the "safety net" of the Catholic Church, or any Church for that matter, for millenia. We bring up our children, in a Christian society, to abide by the 10 Commandments. As do Jews, as do Muslims. Same roots. In fact, if you look at the countries around the world, and I generalise, all have the same basic tenets in their laws. While the punishments may differ, the basic laws remain the same. There are exceptions and subtle differences, especially where polygamy is concerned, but in the crudest sense, all are a code of social conduct for the benefit of all. Take out the religious commandments, as they tend to differ, the social laws all say much the same thing. Don't do anything that will harm, annoy or antagonise your neighbours. Without out that, social cohesion falls apart.
INRI and his friends show a typical Catholic intolerance towards any who might disagree. Let us not forget the Crusades, the Inquisition, or the persecution of any who suggested that the Earth revolved around the Sun.
That being said, the persecution of Catholics by the Protestants is no better, but typifies religious intolerance in general. So, INRI, I may well go on "doing my thang", but I just hope you don't feel the need to torture me or burn me at the stake because I choose to.
281

I_N_R_I,

20/08/2008 17:14:00
Mad Jock, 295

I think we're all aware that sexuality has existed for millions of years, Jock. If you read Em's posts properly you'll see clearly detailed the consequences of the contraception enabled drive towards a free love, free sex, shagtastic society: adultery, divorce, premarital sex, STD’s, out-of-wedlock births, abortion, fatherless children, homosexuality, poverty, crime, drugs, and violence.

I'm fascinated to see you portray our exchange as an example of MY supposed intolerance. Read it properly and you'll see I seek only to be allowed to bring up MY children MY way. Various intolerant seculars have objected to my quest, and have liberally sprayed insults re my religious beliefs.

Of their beliefs I say only: fair enough - your prerogative.

Your apparent fear re being tortured or burned by me in Scotland 2008 confirm again how appropriate is your chosen pseudonym.
282

Shuggie,

Canada 20/08/2008 17:35:10
I understand that this vaccine is effective against a small number of the serotypes of HPV implicated in cervical cancer. A mechanical barrier provides more effective prevention for all types. If only one or other is to be advised (by church or state)it should surely be the latter.
283

I_N_R_I,

20/08/2008 17:43:19
Shuggie, 297

Over here, in Scotland, we're in a free society where all are entitled to advise.

Even better: we're all entitled to make up our own minds re such matters.

You'll see from the article that the Catholic hierarchy has decided to allow (subject to parental consent) wee girls to have this immunisation in Catholic Schools.

Entirely consistent with Church beliefs, they have decided that supplemental re barrier contraception will not be allowed.
284

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20/08/2008 17:45:51
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285

I_N_R_I,

20/08/2008 17:59:00
On the back of a reasonable article and 300 comments I find it truly stunning that Cankers STILL does not understand what's happening here!

too young to be advised re condoms argues the Catholic church **** WRONG!!! Catholic view is that condoms are WONG regardless of age.

the Church steps back and stop its interference....***WRONG!!! These are CATHOLIC CHURCH Schools. They are run by the Church. One cannot "interfere" in a School one is running!

girls of this age (in non Catholic schools) should be advised re the vaccine AND condoms!...***WRONG AGAIN**** As repeatedly advised - by me and others - the Church has no desire to influence what is taught in other Schools!!

Cankers,

have you not read the article?
do you not read the comments properly?
or are you just plain stupid?
286

Frank Brady,

20/08/2008 18:01:07
Billious, Mad Jock? Is there no end to the strange monickers chosen by those who worship death (emotional, physical, spiritual)? These irrational and despairing creatures, who wish to throw off any semblance of order in society and return to a state of paganism, appear to want to promote all those indices of modern Scotland (and elsewhere) which indicate the country is committing a slow form of suicide.

And like the God-haters they appear to be, lurking in the gutter, they will brook no objection by those, like INRI and EM and others, who love life and know there is something better to come after this vale of tears.

We should certainly pray for the Cankers of this world. But, possessing free will, it is entirely up to them if they want to spend eternity in the embrace of the Father of Lies. For the moment, all sensible people should leave them to wallow in the swamp of their moral sickness. Perhaps, before it is too late, they will feel the breath of God's grace, and change their lives for the better.I'm not holding my breath.
287

I_N_R_I,

20/08/2008 18:12:59
As Cankers, my barren friend is still sulking, might I venture an answer to the questions I posed at the end of #300?

I reckon she has not read the article properly.
I reckon she has a poor understanding of Scotland, Scottish society and in particular education in Scotland.
I reckon she economically reads the posts of others - seeing only what she chooses to see for fear that her weaks arguments are repeatedly exposed.
I reckon she is ignorant for her posts here have repeatedly demonstrated an ignorance of core components of the important matter we discuss here.

Free advice for Cankers: Come out of the darkness, Cankers. Come into the light. Give up the bigotry and badness. Stay on your heathen path if you like - but please please please stop the ill informed attacks on decent people who do not buy into your shagtastic free love mindset - or the pain and suffering it causes throughout the world.
288

I_N_R_I,

20/08/2008 18:14:13
As Cankers, my barren friend is still sulking, might I venture an answer to the questions I posed at the end of #300?

--- I reckon she has not read the article properly.
--- I reckon she has a poor understanding of Scotland, Scottish society and in particular education in Scotland.
--- I reckon she economically reads the posts of others - seeing only what she chooses to see for fear that her weak arguments are repeatedly exposed.
--- I reckon she is ignorant for her posts here have repeatedly demonstrated an ignorance of core components of the important matter we discuss here.

Free advice for Cankers:

Come out of the darkness, Cankers. Come into the light. Give up the bigotry and badness. Stay on your heathen path if you like - but please please please stop the ill informed attacks on decent people who do not buy into your shagtastic free love mindset - or the pain and suffering it causes throughout the world.
289

Mad Jock,

East Lothian 20/08/2008 18:14:52
INRI 296, I only mention torture and burning at the stake to highlight how wrong and judgmental the religious bigots in general, and the Catholic Church in particular, have been in punishing people for not acceding to their particular creed, for whatever reason, but have since been proven to be wrong. The fact that you say that it wouldn't be allowed in Scotland in 2008 proves my point. I doubt very much whether any particular "pogrom" has subsequently been proven to be either justified or correct, in the literal sense, in over 1850 years. The Vatican no longer burns witches, tortures Jews and other non-believers, nor tortures scientists or astronomers for suggesting that the earth is NOT the centre of the universe. It has been proven wrong time and time again. Is it too much to believe that they might still be wrong on current issues?
Sadly, in the all too recent past, we have seen Protestants killing Catholics and vice versa for being what they are, for believing what they believe in. Religious intolerance breeds religious intolerance. Yet curiously Christianity, Islam and Judaeism all preach tolerance, and somehow manage manifestly not to practise it.
In a perfect world, and I am sure you would agree that it isn't, children would always listen to their parents advice. All parents would be good parents. All mankind would be heterosexual. But it isn't. Ask any behavioural psychologist.
If you seriously believe that humans will only have unprotected sex for procreation, you have a limited understanding of the animal that is man. It is the law that attempts to protect children from paedophiles. Some, and I would agree with you, very sick men think that it is OK to have sex with children. Society, and the law, dictates otherwise. Yet a few hundred years ago, we were marrying off our 12 year olds to old men "who had a bit of power", and these children were accorded a full church wedding, and therefore the implicit blessing of the Vatican.
These were certainly not
290

Mad Jock,

East Lothian 20/08/2008 18:22:31
These were certainly not consensual marriages, at least not by the 12 year old, and I doubt very much whether love came into it. So why did it stop? Did the Church intervene, thereby admitting it was wrong, or did secular society step in, and take a stand?
Historically, secular society, on balance, has got it right, and it has been religion, of all hues, that has got it wrong, and continues to get it wrong. The fact that secular society bases it's opinions on Christian tenets would suggest that Christianity was a good starting point, but it needs to continue to move with the times.
291

Mad Jock,

East Lothian 20/08/2008 18:31:26
Frank Brady, 301. Billious? Moi? I think that I have maintained my discussion at a reasonable manner, without resorting to name-calling.
Still, while you seem to be in a confrontational mood, ponder this. In an earlier post, you alluded to the homosexual French Canadian steward who brought AIDS/HIV to America. Has it occurred to you that being French Canadian, he might be CATHOLIC?
292

I_N_R_I,

20/08/2008 18:42:29
Mad Jock, 304

Yes, I've seen others desperate to attack my Church resort to activities from hundreds of years ago too. Very weak.

This debate is not about whether the Church is right ot wrong, Jock. Were we to need agreement on such matters we really would be in big trouble!

No, the Catholic hierarchy has made a decision re how this prickly issue will be handled in our Schools.

For Catholics that's absolutely the right decision. Should any parents of children at our schools have a different perspective, then one wonders why they would send their wean to our School is truly baffling!

So, you see, it's actually quite straightforward - well....until various intolerant seculars see this article as an opportunity to spew their usual bigotry.

My Church and others teach tolerance and love. Sure, evil men try to use *** religion *** as a justification for their violence but it never is - and only those who WANT to believe it is - choose to believe it.

Your final paragraph provres only a fundamental misunderstanding of my beliefs and seems to confirm you have not read my posts.
293

I_N_R_I,

20/08/2008 18:46:14
Mad Jock, 306

Does it matter? Really?

One thing I will say though: if he were a homosexual fornicating in Africa he would not have been obeying the teachings of the Church.

I say again: those who abide by the teachings of the Church have little to fear from AIDS\HIV (a global epidemic rapidly accelerated by free love free sex shagtastic liberals that has killed millions)
294

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20/08/2008 18:47:07
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295

I_N_R_I,

20/08/2008 18:51:09
Mad Jock, 305

Just seen your post 305 - ooops! Sorry!

I see your view that religions have got it wrong and that intolerant seculars have got it right. A view you're entitled to, of course.

I see little\no logic in your argument though.

Doesnt really matter though - because *** I SAY YET AGAIN *** we need not agree!

You do your thang and I'll do mine?

You do secularism and I'll do Catholicism?

You're happy! I'm happy!

Que?
296

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20/08/2008 18:53:37
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297

I_N_R_I,

20/08/2008 18:59:36
Cankers 309

denying sexual health education to all of the 30.000 schoolgirls but only to the Catholic ones....WRONG AGAIN!!!

Sex education IS provided as core curriculum in all Catholic Schools in the UK. It starts at a very young age, and by the time they have left Primary School, they have had a graphic discussion re body parts, functions, the sex act, and the Church's teachings re sex and love within a marriage.

Very early in secondary education their education progresses. Health issues are covered. Pregnancy, risks, abortion, STDs, AIDS\HIV, contraception - all covered.

By the time a child is 12 or 13 their knowledge of such matters is usually well established anyway.

So, yet again you demonstrate that your comments here are sourced from ignorance, Cankers.

Get out of the dark, Cankers, and come into the light.
298

I_N_R_I,

20/08/2008 19:05:13
Cankers, 311

Sheeesh! How desperate these people are to fix the problem you shagtastic free lovers have created, eh?
299

I_N_R_I,

20/08/2008 19:08:07
Re 312: should have said - homosexuality is also covered in our lessons.
300

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20/08/2008 19:37:23
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301

I_N_R_I,

20/08/2008 19:58:38
Cankers, 315

Interesting article, Cankers - similar, I thought, to our discussions.

Determined efforts by Catholics to bring up our children in our beliefs, and a similarly determined effort by various intolerant seculars to interfere and impose their wicked agenda upon us.

Bishops throughout the UK are aware of the wicked agenda of aggressive secularism and are prepared to fight for our civil liberties.

If it was intended to undermine my post #312 it failed miserably.

Sexual health education IS provided to children in Catholic Schools, despite your ill informed claims.

Not the *fornication is OK if you wear a condom* brand of "education" various low morals seculars advocate, but a brand of sexual health education that does not lead to a culture of adultery, divorce, premarital sex, STD’s, out-of-wedlock births, abortion, fatherless children, homosexuality, poverty, crime, drugs, and violence.
302

Billious43,

Glasgow 21/08/2008 13:49:59
OK, guys, the main point of all this is there is no god (so no need for interfering bishops etc) . Really, trust me. I could prove it if only you would stop screaming and writing in capital letters for five minutes. Why is it that you think shouting makes things true? It says a great deal about your emotional development but adds nothing to the voracity of your case. I must admit that the immediate response to my one and only post made me laugh. You didn't get the joke. Do you even know who Philip Larkin was or the poem to which I referred? I suggest you look it up and read it. You made a fool of yourself (see I was right; so it wasn't abuse, just observation) in your response. And just so you understand the tone of my post this time ...... heheheheheheheheheheheheh! I'm off now to talk to some grown ups, ta ta xxx
303

I_N_R_I,

21/08/2008 21:52:17
Billy, 317,

See ya, son.

Good luck with your O grades.
304

Frank Brady,

22/08/2008 16:07:03
Cankers appears to have limped off the field, nursing those wounds so precisely given him by the rapier-like INRI, who, in a clear, simple and articulate way,which even a 10 year old child could understand, has won this "debate" hands-down. Unfortunately, we are left with the sorry sight of Mad Jock(or is it Dog?) and Billious still wandering blindly about.

These latter disturbed individuals, because of the similar irrationality and abuse of their comments, are probably the same person. Maybe they're even Cankers.

Billious, who has done a lot of the shouting, seems to share the inanity of other anti-religion (and anti-Catholic Church) militant atheist nutters, who, in their despair, believe in nothing, except indulging their disordered passions, and are unable to prove a negative, i.e., the non-existence of God. They are equally unable to stay on the point of this discussion, despite INRI's many attempts to point out to them the errors of their ways. Billious also appears to have a strange "grasp" of the English language when he uses the phrase "the voracity of your case." I have heard of someone being voraciously hungry, but never of having a voracious case.

As is frequently the case of someone trying too hard to be an intellectual, who possesses a smattering of learning, our pseudo-thinker trots out a minor English poet to prove--exactly what? The fact that he can read? (even if he knows not the meaning of some elementary English words). But doesn't every Scottish child who attends a primary school learn to read?--even if he or she leaves shortly thereafter.

So, we are left here to ponder the coolness of INRI's (and EM's) intellect (combined with their strong and resolute Catholic Faith) versus the sound and inarticulate fury of a very minor product (appearing in three disguises?) of the Scottish educational system, filled with his peculiar hatred of God. There can be absolutely no doubt as to the victor(s) in this most unequal of jousts. The loser(s
305

I_N_R_I,

22/08/2008 18:12:36
Thank you for those kind comments, Frankm in #319.

Were those three to be one, as you suggest, would they be an Unholy Trinity?

It's interesting to note we were so readily able to dismiss weak arguments put forward by Cankers, Mad, and Billious (and others) when we are repeatedly told that we (Catholics) are incapable of independent thought.

Still, I guess that's just another lie the intolerant seculars peddle.

Their secularism is entirely acceptable; their intolerance is not.
306

Frank Brady,

22/08/2008 20:22:58
INRI (and all "Fides et Ratio" Catholics),

Rather than insulting (if even slightly) the Triune God, we should classify these odd and lost souls who appear on this board as AHSs (Anti-Holy Satanists).

These are people unable or unwilling to use their God-given reason, who tolerate (which they think of as a "virtue"), and (free) willingly embrace, evil (created by their leader--the Prince of Darkness), and are intolerant of the good and the truth (which they think of as "vices") practiced by people such as yourself. Following Satan's teachings (which led directly to sickness and death) to the letter, these so-called secular-humanists seek only the spiritual destruction of the human race, while indulging their own rabid and disordered appetites. And wish all others to join them in their dreadful quest.

In a time when so many Catholics in Scotland and elsewhere have been inadequately catechised and are frightened to stand up for Our Lord (in case they "offend" their Godless neighbours), I have been more than inspired to read how effortlessly you dispatched these pathetic poltroons, and, by extension, their master, the Devil. God has indeed given you many graces, from which your family and yourself must benefit enormously. May God continue to bless you.
307

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23/08/2008 23:05:15
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23/08/2008 23:12:00
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I_N_R_I,

24/08/2008 13:51:12
John, 323

The problems you imagine exist only in your head.

Like others you are an intolerant and a bigot.

No-one tells me how to live my life. No-one.

Is someone telling you? I think not....

Your bizarre and bigoted first paragraph is followed by an incredibly stupid second paragraph, with your bigotry and intolerance supplemented by ignorance and naivety.

If you're not able to adopt Catholic morals, John, the good news - for you - is that they're optional. Lesser men - like you - can carry on in your heathen ways.
310

I_N_R_I,

24/08/2008 13:54:37
John 322

Quote:

"So, let me get this right......."

Advice:

Yes, getting it right would be a helluva good idea, John. Ideally BEFORE you demonstrate to readers here your failure to read and understand this story.

Most posters here make contributions that display intelligence and insight, John.

You have proven only your ignorance and stupidity.
311

I_N_R_I,

24/08/2008 13:58:26
Frank, 321

As various bigots here realise the folly of their case there emerges another fool (John 322, 323) anxious to curb the hard earned liberties decent people enjoy in our democracy.

Bigot John is keen to silence the Church because they espouse views different from his. I guess Stalin would be proud of him.

For a society where Church views and other liberties are suppressed, might I suggest you try China?
312

Frank Brady,

24/08/2008 18:05:19
We had barely seen the backs of a couple of these foul-mouthed, irrational people who haunt the gutters of Scotland spewing out their hatred of anyone or any group (religious or otherwise) who disagree with their immoral and unhealthy practices, than another neanderthal raises his ugly and misshapen head.

Are these people born this way, or do they just spend most of the daylight hours in front of a mirrors practicing such rubbish?

Governed by their all-consuming ego they are the superstitious adherents of paganism. People with a mental age of a five-year old boy who are still calling others stupid names and using (look at me, please) vulgar language to attack their betters.

Surely they, like so many sectarian Scottish bigots who support a certain football team, are not fuelled by imbibing excessive amounts of alcohol (and/or bizarre drugs)? But their ravings, which appear to be the products of deranged thinking, could possibly be the result of such imbibing. There is nothing like a paranoid Scottish male, with deep-seated feelings of insecurity and inadequacy, trying to think coherently. This creature John fits that bill exactly. Back to the gutter, John, where you belong.
313

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05/09/2008 18:04:44
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