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Salmond puts SNP 'on election footing' after Budget defeat by Greens

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Published Date: 29 January 2009
PATRICK Harvie, joint leader of the smallest party at Holyrood, yesterday brought down Scotland's entire £33 billion Budget, plunging the SNP government into chaos.
At the end of a day of extraordinary drama in the chamber of the Scottish Parliament, the Green MSP voted down the Budget because of a technical dispute over funding.

The jubilant laughter and celebration of last year's Budget victory was nowhere to be seen. Alex Salmond, the First Minister, and John Swinney, his finance secretary, sat huddled together, stony-faced, as the vote was announced to gasps of surprise.

Even just a couple of minutes before the vote, Mr Swinney believed he had won over the Greens. He had agreed to insulate 100,000 homes in Scotland – as Mr Harvie had demanded. What he could not do was give a guarantee that all the £33 million offered for the project would come from new funds.

After all the negotiations – deals thrashed out at the back of the chamber and compromise solutions pinging back and forth by e-mail between Mr Swinney and Mr Harvie – the Green MSP decided it was just not enough.

He was angry partly because he had not been given the assurances he wanted, but also because of the way he had been treated by Mr Swinney. So he and his Green colleague, Robin Harper, voted No.

Because of the tightly balanced nature of the parliament, that decision was enough to bring down the Budget.

Mr Harvie will meet Mr Swinney this morning in an attempt to repair the damage his decision has caused, and the Green co-leader insisted he would be "constructive" in his talks with the finance secretary.

But Mr Harvie's decision was already starting to cause problems last night and it could even lead to the resignation of the government and an election in Scotland.

Mr Salmond said he would make one more attempt to get his Budget passed – he has until the end of March to do that – but if this next attempt failed, he would resign as First Minister and try to force an election.

Clearly infuriated with the tactics of the Greens, Mr Salmond said: "I am putting the SNP on an election footing tonight. We have a responsibility to try to get the Budget through."

After a day of extraordinary drama at Holyrood, which at one stage involved Mr Salmond negotiating with Mr Harvie at the back of the chamber, Mr Swinney believed he had secured enough votes to get the Budget agreed.

The Tories had agreed to back it, as had the independent MSP Margo MacDonald, and Mr Swinney had offered the Greens £22 million towards their insulation scheme to get them on board too – money he promised would come from higher-than-expected business rate receipts.

Labour and the Liberal Democrats had already let it be known they would oppose the Budget, so everything came down to the Greens, putting the party's two MSPs in the most influential position they have ever had.

They had originally asked for £100 million for home insulation. Mr Harvie then used his Budget speech to tell Mr Swinney he would back the Budget if he got £33 million for that project.

Mr Harvie was also angry that he had been negotiating with the finance secretary since October and still had not had a proper answer to his demand.

Right at the end of the debate, Mr Swinney said £33 million would be provided for the scheme, insulating 100,000 houses, as Mr Harvie wanted. Although Mr Swinney guaranteed that this money would be spent, he could not give an assurance that all of it would come from the Scottish Government.

Mr Harvie was worried that some of the money might come out of budgets already earmarked for fuel poverty when he wanted it all to be new money. And it was at that point that he decided the Greens should oppose the SNP's Budget.

With the two Greens joining Labour and the Liberal Democrats in voting against, the vote was tied 64-64. Under the rules of the parliament, Alex Fergusson, the Presiding Officer, had to vote for the status quo and, in this case, the status quo was last year's Budget. So Mr Fergusson cast his vote against the Budget, causing it to fall.

Mr Harvie was unrepentant afterwards and insisted that he had done the right thing. "I think it's necessary that we all stay a bit calm, try and be a bit grown-up and let's see a better Budget," he said.

Although SNP ministers have time to submit another Budget, the implications of Mr Harvie's last-minute decision will start to be felt very soon.

Local authorities were due to start setting their council tax rates on 12 February, but now they cannot do so because they do not know whether they will get the £70 million in the Budget for this year's council tax freeze.

The First Minister also warned that, because of the worsening economic situation, Scotland needed a Budget, and needed one quickly. The latest gross domestic product figures, published yesterday, showed Scotland is accelerating into the recession quicker than the rest of the UK.

Mr Salmond said: "Every day that passes where the Budget is not in place, our ability to plan effectively, during a time of enormous economic uncertainty, is reduced."

Immediately after the vote, Iain Gray, the Scottish Labour leader, increased the pressure on SNP ministers by warning he would introduce a "no confidence" vote on the performance of the government if the new, revised Budget did not get through parliament. Under Holyrood rules, if a motion of no confidence in the First Minister is supported by 25 MSPs, a vote is taken. If this vote is passed, MSPs have 28 days to appoint a new First Minister. If no First Minister is chosen, an election is called.

Mr Gray said: "This is a government that is badly damaged. They tried to negotiate things they'd known for weeks and months that we had known about and the Greens had known about.

"It culminated in the First Minister of Scotland skulking about the back of the chamber trying to negotiate a last-minute deal with the Greens to get them off the hook and he failed."

Annabel Goldie, the Scots Tory leader, indicated she would support ministers again. She said: "If the bill, as re-presented, reflects the concessions that we have secured, then we shall support it."

The Tories agreed to back the Budget in return for £60 million for a town regeneration fund.

Ms MacDonald, who had won concessions on affordable housing for Edinburgh, also backed the SNP and denied the defeat was an embarrassment for the party.

What happens now? The Lib Dems' demands for a 2p cut in income tax have been rejected by all other parties, so there is no point in Mr Swinney negotiating again with them.

Also, Labour's demands are so far away from being met that it is unlikely Mr Swinney will be able to find a compromise on skills and apprenticeships to suit them. Which leaves the Greens.

Talks could go on until the final minutes of the final debate on a new Budget next month. Only then will parliament, and the country, know whether it has a Budget – or a possible election.


Profile: Ecologically sound fan of sci-fi and single malt

WHEN he won the "politician to watch" award in 2004, little did anybody expect that Patrick Harvie should be watched very closely indeed.

Had the SNP realised this, they may not have taken such a relaxed attitude to their negotiations with the Green list MSP for Glasgow, who this year became his party's leader – or co-convener, as the Greens term it.

The SNP should have also taken note of his shortlisting for "free spirit of the year" in last year's Scottish Political Awards.

His political activities and the issues that drive him – the environment and gay rights – fill much of his life. However, he loves science fiction films and books, and good quality drink, particularly single malt whiskies.

Despite being a party leader, Mr Harvie is one of the most independent thinkers in the Scottish Parliament. His atheist approach has made him an indirect target of sermons from Catholic bishops. His major causes have been on human rights, especially for the gay community. As a new MSP in 2003, he proposed civil partnership legislation and has pushed forward legislation for hate crimes.

He is known to be uncompromising. A quick temper, that some MSPs have complained about, was on full display yesterday in the main chamber when he felt that John Swinney, the finance secretary, had tried to make him look like a fool.

He is largely adored by his own party members and has been one of the main proponents of making the Scottish Greens a party aimed at promoting a liberal lifestyle rather than just a fringe party fighting for environmental issues.

Last night, his predecessor as leader, Robin Harper, the Lothians Green MSP, defended Mr Harvie's "firm stance" and said the SNP had left them little choice but to vote the way they did.

BACKGROUND

THE Greens originally wanted £1 billion to fund a scheme to provide insulation for 1.5 million households.

Under their proposal, £100 million would be spent every year for the next decade providing loft and cavity insulation for the homes in Scotland that needed it.

The scheme was developed by Green councillors in West Yorkshire and the Scottish Greens' figures were based on the reduced costs achieved there.

The Greens claimed that every household in Scotland would save £340 a year in energy costs for a one-off insulation cost to the Scottish Government of about £500 per home. There would be a carbon emission reduction of six per cent in Scotland, just from this measure.

The second part of their demands was to provide home renewable energy devices, such as windmills and solar panels, under a loan scheme where the Scottish Government or local councils would take part- ownership to meet the costs.

This would also be the means of paying for difficult-to- insulate homes – about 20 per cent of the total.

If they had got this, it would have been the biggest achievement by any Green Party in the world and many experts thought it was a good idea. The scheme was wholeheartedly welcomed by the Scottish Building Federation, whose members have been suffering in the recession as work has dried up and thousands of jobs have been lost.

Environmentalists backed the scheme because it would tackle the carbon footprint of households and seriously reduce emissions in Scotland. And economists were impressed by the way the scheme could help tackle the recession.

Professor Brian Ashcroft, from Strathclyde University, said: "While there is always the caveat of how much money is available in the budget, it is hard to see anything wrong with the idea. It is hard to put a price on stopping climate change and there is no doubt that this would provide the sort of work needed to get Scotland out of the recession."


Q & A: What now – and what does it mean for the man and woman in the street?

What happens now the Budget Bill has been voted down by the Scottish Parliament?


A new one can be introduced at any time.

There is no time bar on a new Budget Bill being brought back before the Scottish Parliament and, in fact, the SNP resubmitted its Budget last night.

It is the same package that started yesterday and new negotiations will take place with the Greens today.

The Scottish Parliament's Standing Order – Rule 9.16.8 on Budget Bills states: "If a Budget Bill falls or is rejected at any stage by the Parliament, a Budget Bill in the same or similar terms may be introduced at any time thereafter."

Now that the SNP has resubmitted the Budget, what happens next?

The SNP will try to accelerate the Budget with the help of the corporate body, which organises parliament's business.

But as things stand, the new first reading will be on 4 February, with second stage of committee scrutiny on 10 February and the third-stage vote on 19 February.

But what happens if it still fails? How can the Scottish Government spend any money if it does not have a Budget?

If, at the beginning of a financial year, there is no Budget Act in place, then Part 1, Section 2 of the Public Finance and Accountability Scotland Act 2000's emergency arrangements apply.

This means the government has to rely upon the terms of the previous year's Budget and for each calendar month expenditure is limited to one twelfth of the total Budget for the previous year.

When a new Budget is finally passed, the lost money from previous months will be put back into the Scottish Budget.

What will happen to plans to continue the freeze on council tax, and what are the implications for public-sector pay increases, if a Budget is not passed in time?

The council tax freeze and pay increases will only happen if a new Budget is passed. The SNP has alleged there will be a 30 per cent rise in the council tax if the Budget is not passed in time.

If it fails and the SNP resigns, will there be an election?

Not necessarily. Parliament will have 28 days to find a new First Minister.

Labour has said it will put up its leader, Iain Gray, and if he gets more votes in the chamber than anybody else, then he could become First Minister and lead the government.


Analysis: From hero to zero in high-risk strategy

Robert McNeil's Sketch: When the hand of history should be used for a clip round the ear

The Scotsman's David Maddox was blogging on yesterday's events live from Holyrood for The Steamie, our Scottish politics blog. Read his analysis here

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1

Rufus-T-Firefly,

28/01/2009 22:54:51
Well done the Principled Patrick Harvie!

You certainly stuck it up the Unprincipled SNP.

The SNP gave the Greens NO Respect, and now they are paying the price for their amateurish cheek.

Resign now Salmond (as you promised) and make everybody happy.
2

 sm753,

28/01/2009 23:24:44

A very perceptive and thoughtful comment.
3

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28/01/2009 23:26:04
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4

Rufus-T-Firefly,

28/01/2009 23:57:24
#3

qaStaH nuq?
5

Stan Butler,

29/01/2009 00:10:37
Election footing?

What does that mean?

Laying in extra stocks of pakora?
6

,

29/01/2009 00:11:16
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7

,

29/01/2009 00:14:32
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8

Boaby Dazzler,

29/01/2009 00:15:08
Ha ha ha

Rufus the mental talks to himself in Klingon...what a total saddo!
9

krusty the klown,

29/01/2009 00:16:54
#6 my problem is with a bunch of wee numpties (AKA - MSPs) having the ability to cope with this
10

,

29/01/2009 00:18:34
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11

Punta Prima,

BALERNO 29/01/2009 00:25:03
Hope the Greens stand by their principles leading to an election where they get wiped out and the SNP are returned with a working majority.

How can Patrick Harvie vote with the pro nuclear lobby who would not give his party house room never mind £33m

Greens were my second choice in the past that is no longer the case.
12

Rasco,

29/01/2009 00:25:54
Lab is going to put Grey up for First Minister so does that mean he will lead a minority Government or will Tavish do a deal with him, will we then have an Executive again.
13

Vivas,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 00:29:40
Possibly the only remote chance that Tavish will ever have in his lifetime of a ministerial car.

Dream on Tavish...
14

Westfield Bairns,

Vote SNP for a better future 29/01/2009 00:31:25
The Green Party showed today a prime example on how to commit political suicide
15

Castaway™ ,

29/01/2009 00:32:57
If it fails and the SNP resigns, will there be an election?

Parliamentry solution: If the Parliament itself resolves that it should be dissolved, with at least two-thirds of the Members (ie. 86 Members) voting in favour, the Presiding Officer proposes a date for an extraordinary general election and the Parliament is dissolved by the monarch by royal proclamation

BLP (Northern Branch) solution:If the First Minister lost a vote of confidence by a simple majority simple majority (ie. more than 50%) the FM must resign and Parliament would then have 28 days to elect a successor. If no new First Minister is elected then the Presiding Officer would ask for Parliament to be dissolved.

Go for it I Gray and join your friend and mentor G Brown then we will have a PM and FM as leaders but having never led their party to victory via any national elections.Democracy BLP style. Yeh ! Yeh ! Yeh !
16

Rasco,

29/01/2009 00:35:40
Can't wait to see Ian Grey,s budget mind you he will get extra money from his London Boss,will my Council Tax have to go up,they will now have to spell out their policy's that I can't wait to see.
17

Vivas,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 00:37:05
For Gray to be elected, and with the likely party alliances, he would have to buy off the Greens. With nuclear power back on the labour agenda then surely the "principled" Greens simply can't be bought.

Patrick Harvie, your hand isn't as strong as you think it is and your bluff may be called.
18

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 29/01/2009 00:40:50
Mm, I think Annabel Goldie got it right. There would have been no problem had Labour and the Libs not voted against the budget - just because they could. The Greens are getting hung out to dry because the press want to protect Gray and Scott.
19

antp,

antp 29/01/2009 00:42:46
a bluff being called, methinks. perhaps Mr Salmond thinks he's done enough by coming back from obscurity and saving the SNP from itself, and now wants to fade back into it... interesting times we live in.
20

Arthur Dent,

. . . teleported by Babel Fish 29/01/2009 00:46:40
The First Minister looked lost on McHootsnight, Jockland last night.

The 2009/2010 Budget is probably his "Bridge Too Far".

Swinney has lost the will to fight and Nasty Wee Nicola wants to spend more time with her Wii .

http://tinyurl.com/cdw9x2
21

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 00:49:03


The vote was hardly surprising, the SNP have lost respect, with their constant inability, to take action on matters of great importance!

They will be remembered for,...'THE BANNING' of a 21year old who has a good job, mortgage, wife and baby, who can fight wars, and who has voted for 3years, form,,

"Purchasing a Bottle of Wine" to celebrate the birth of their new baby!

Oh! And the hiding of cigarette's "Under the Counter"!

I watched, listened, all year last year on the demise of HBOS!

NOT ONCE DID THE SNP, TAKE A STANCE!

SPEAKS VOLUMES,...DON'T IT??

PLAYING TIDDLYWINKS, NEED I SAY MORE!


22

Arthur Dent,

29/01/2009 00:49:36
#3 got deleted.

Why?

The post can be found, in sequence, here:http://tinyurl.com/cdw9x2
23

Arthur Dent,

. . . I'm behind you! Oh YES I am! 29/01/2009 00:55:51
I notice that "Care In The Community" has turned up like the proverbial bad penny.

The preferred convention is that posts adhere to an approximation of basic literacy and spelling.

Capitals should be restricted to the first letter of each sentence. Otherwise, you are SHOUTING like a total ignoramus!!!


24

steve52,

Kinfauns 29/01/2009 01:00:52
rufus t was quick out the starting box....quiet other times when its Labour sleeze.

I think Salmond should call an election as the people of Scotland can clearly see that Labour are playing games with the future of the country. Lets be perfectly honest, the Grey man can only play games as the more serious stuff is way beyond him.

As for those greens. What gives them the right to play politics with the country in the mess it is.

Just where do they think the extra money is going to come from? These people want to get a life and remember some of us are struggling out in the real World unlike them and their expenses.
25

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 01:05:32

Arthur Dent ~25,

Well!, What does one expect?

Great opportunities were given, and all was ruined!, by child-play,
Is it any wonder, that I am annoyed?

I Promise to stop shouting though, or at least I will make an effort. :)


26

David Cavers,

Kincardine, Ontario, Canada 29/01/2009 01:06:00
And the joke we call Government continues.
I thought Canada was the only country that had a circus for a Government, seems Scotland does also. In tough economic times, it's my belife that all parties should be put their partisinship differences aside, and work together to help the country, and not play stupid childish games.
27

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29/01/2009 01:10:35
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,

29/01/2009 01:11:39
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29

frank mcbride,

lusitania 29/01/2009 01:11:40
It really is a joy to behold the Unionists and Quasi-Brit BNP trying to suggest that the non-ratification of the SB is the fault of the SNP Government.

Pray tell, people, what amendments were put for debate?

Pray tell, what alternative Budgets were proposed?

Pray tell, where was the GENUINE MAJORITY for non-ratification?

The Budget was not ratified because NuLabTory and the LibDums were voting AGAINST THE SNP, NOT for the interests of the people of Scotland. Why else did they not propose amendments, or indeed their own cully costed budgets?

The Quasi-Brit BNP are hoping against hope that NuLabTory will commit suicide as they believe that they can hoover up a percentage of their vote.

I have a message for the Quasi-Brits, your hope will be shattered, just as it was with your Recruitment Blitz at Ibrox; your catastrophic failure will be repeated, as your insidious belief finds no resonance with the vast majority of Scots.
30

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 01:11:46

David Cavers ~29,

"I thought Canada was the only country that had a circus for a Government"

Better call it the 'Muppet Show', because at least a "circus", has more sense.


31

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29/01/2009 01:14:03
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32

frank mcbride,

lusitania 29/01/2009 01:16:46
Sam, the man who the SNP fears, is a coward and will have my #33 removed.

Quasi-Brits don't do free speech, still less, debate. They comment drivel on these threads, disrupt, cause threads to be closed, but the one thing they are not prepared to do is debate.
33

Arthur Dent,

29/01/2009 01:17:04
The sooner Scotland is an Independent Tory State, the better!

Annabel is top totty.
34

Arthur Dent,

29/01/2009 01:20:22
#37,

Deletion is a badge of honour at the Rancid Press!

Big J trades on the complete and utter bolleaux posted on these forums.


35

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29/01/2009 01:40:49
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36

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

29/01/2009 01:57:01
We now have a situation where the Green parties 2 Msps are infinitely more powerful than the Labour parties 46. How labour can be pleased at that is anyone's guess.
37

Conan the Librarian™,

http://mypseudepigrapha.blogspot.com/ 29/01/2009 02:16:22
42 A new Mackee Col.
38

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29/01/2009 02:23:52
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39

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29/01/2009 02:52:05
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40

SNP hypocrisy,

29/01/2009 03:14:17
Well done to the Greens!
41

Longdirk Maceth,

NZ 29/01/2009 03:19:05
Slowly, but surely the Scottish people are beginning to wake up to the fact that Scotland is being shafted by MP's North and South of the border.
The SNP are the ONLY party to have Scotland best interests at heart, is Scotland goes back to having a Labour Goverment then very quickly we will see London trying to rip control back so we will see the building of nuclear power stations and the like, this clown Harvie has done his country a great diservice.
42

SNP hypocrisy,

29/01/2009 03:19:52
45. Annabel Goldie has proved herself unfit to continue as the Scots Tory leader. Her continued support of the Nationalists is unthinkable.

She humiliated the Scottish Conservative and Unionists by supporting the Nationalists yet again, and their failing government. She can say what she likes, but the Scots Tory voters can judge for themselves and most likely feel quite outraged and betrayed at ANY support of Salmonds 'government'.

This time she led her party into defeat by siding with the losers. The Tories could do a lot better, under other leadership.
43

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29/01/2009 03:23:52
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44

SNP hypocrisy,

29/01/2009 03:23:58
48. So just like the SNP you are happy to deprive your children of modern apprenticeships? Are you quite mad?

This is what the whole issue is about, since the SNP is depriving Scotland of much needed apprenticeships. Labour want 25,000 - which is in line with the rest of the UK.

The SNP will concede to offer only 10,000 apprenticeships. With this blind refusal to invest in Scotland's future parties like the SNP, just don't deserve to be part of it.
45

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29/01/2009 03:32:35
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46

2Right,

On Location 29/01/2009 03:37:04
The quicker the English boot oot Broon, the quicker the SNP will be able to run Scotland.

Another Labour Ploy to suppress Scotland even further.

Get Labour oot
47

2Right,

On Location 29/01/2009 03:41:56
52
Don't forget Michael Martin's wife's Free Taxi's which seems to have died a death along with the free flights his family also got to London.

Get him oot the hoose as speaker he is unfit for the job
48

SNP hypocrisy,

29/01/2009 03:51:11
53. Absolutely ridiculous. Flipping burgers at a popular fast food venue, might be your child's only job if the SNP continue to provide adequate apprenticeship places. If the SNP will not invest in, cultivate and train our youth then they don't deserve to be in power, it's as simple as that.

Which brings us nicely to immigration. The SNP would rather import migrant tradesmen than bring on our own. That's a fact!
49

SNP hypocrisy,

29/01/2009 03:53:04
56. What about the SNP 'Ministers' continued abuse of the limo's at the nation's expense?
50

SNP hypocrisy,

29/01/2009 04:01:06
54. Why don't you just go instead? You are a complete embarrasment to any party since you are incapable of any form of debate. Most likely you are not even Scottish, since your knowledge seems considerably limited to kilts and the Corries.

No matter the SNP will soon be forgetten history and good riddance. If nothing else, it will shut the likes of you (and your many ID's) up.

Wiping the mirk off your fat fuhrers face yesterday was a victory for Scotland and democracy. Salmond and the SNP are a laughing stock, people are still laughing at him since Glenrothes.

Only a fool with side with losers. Bring it on. You've already lost, before the votes are counted. :-D
51

UK007,

29/01/2009 04:01:24
#47 SNP hypocrisy - I agree
52

UK007,

29/01/2009 04:02:09
#50 SNP hypocrisy - I agree
53

UK007,

29/01/2009 04:02:29
#52 SNP hypocrisy - I agree
54

UK007,

29/01/2009 04:02:53
#57 SNP hypocrisy - I agree
55

UK007,

29/01/2009 04:03:18
#58 SNP hypocrisy - I agree
56

UK007,

29/01/2009 04:03:52
#59 SNP hypocrisy - I agree
57

UK007,

29/01/2009 04:05:20
SNP hypocrisy - Any more ? "Bring them on"
58

W Smith,

Middle East 29/01/2009 04:13:03
There is some irony in all of this.

Leftie Salmond, who wants Scotland to be the "green capital of Europe", has been frustrated by the eco-nutters while being supported by the right wing Tories.

You couldn't make this up.

BTW
Paddy.. I mean.. Patrik Harvie, in my opinion, is a complete nutcase, just like all the other eco-nutters.
59

SNP hypocrisy,

29/01/2009 04:23:16
68. Salmond was a bit of Tory in his past, doncha know? I suspect he is whatever way the wind blows. He was a Socialist up until he met Jim Sillars who really was a socialist. :-D

It is is very ironic though, and probably beyond most people why the Scots Tories continue to attempt to save his skin for the tiniest of concessions.

About the only 'green' contribution the SNP has made to Scotland was their bending over backwards for Trump and his piles of the GREEN stuff. Mind you a planned windfarm on the Meanie estate was pushed aside, because to the SNP Trumps green-backs clearly have more sway than green issues.
60

SNP hypocrisy,

29/01/2009 04:32:30
67. UK007, just doing my duty as a concerned Scotsman and British citizen.
61

UK007,

29/01/2009 04:37:36
#69 SNP hypocrisy - I agree
62

UK007,

29/01/2009 04:38:09
#70 SNP hypocrisy - I agree
63

UK007,

29/01/2009 04:44:23
#57/59/69 SNP hypocrisy

Any fool can criticise, condemn and complain, and most fools do.

Benjamin Franklin
64

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 04:48:53
Oh dear - playground politics in action. There has obviously been posturing on the part of some of the opposition parties but the SNP govt have also backed themselves into a corner by taking a rather inflexible, fundamentalist stance on their insistence on a freeze on council tax. As they have a limited number of revenue raising options it does not realy make sense to rule out one of the few available.

Possible solution - the Scottish govt allows councils to raise council tax up to the rate of RPI as long as the extra revenue is used for home insulation. Home insulation is an investment (as opposed to current account expenditure) which should add value and reduce future bills (according to the theories). It would also, obviously, stimulate employment in the building industry thus helping to alleviate the effects of the recession.
65

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29/01/2009 04:55:44
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29/01/2009 05:28:16
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29/01/2009 05:37:45
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Macuistean,

Isle of Tiree 29/01/2009 05:40:09
Time for the people to decide. Let's have an election.
69

Longdirk Maceth,

NZ 29/01/2009 06:09:56
SNP hypocrisy, is not Scottish he is english and trying his hardest to keep Scotland in the Union so it can continue to be asset stripped by Westminster, he is a scumbag.
70

Argyll on line,

Strachur 29/01/2009 06:15:24
Bring on an election and let us get shot of the Greenie,Fib Dem and Hard Labour dwarfs
71

Angleland Isover,

29/01/2009 06:43:47
The more the unionist knee benders stifle the S.N.P the more obvious it is to see that they would rather see Scotland a wasteland than break free from mother england.
72

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 29/01/2009 07:03:21
Tories voting with the SNP?

Shades of 1979.
73

Grahamski,

Falkirk 29/01/2009 07:14:39
85
The nats are never happier than when they're doing dirty deals with the tories....in the meantime Mr Swinney should try and do his job and present a budget that the representatives of the Scottish people find acceptable.
74

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 07:19:45
84 Angleland
Your obvious desire to insult unionists has blinded you to the reality of the situation and led you to faulty analysis. The Tories, who are unionists, supported the SNP budget while the Greens, who aren't unionists, rejected it. So there is no logic in your statement.
75

Grahamski,

Falkirk 29/01/2009 07:22:08
87
It isn't in Mr Salmond's power to call an election. He just likes to pretend that it is: just another one of Mr Salmond's many delusions... our poor shuffling Walter Mitty character of a first minister is notorious for making statements which arent't quite true...
76

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 29/01/2009 07:25:30
Well thank you Labour and Greens. Thank you for delaying public funding, thank you for potentially losing nearly £2bn of extra funding.

I will never, ever dream of entertaining your parties as anything but jokes from now on.
77

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 29/01/2009 07:27:01
89 Grahamski

Salmond has already been quota as saying that an election is not automatic in a similar article in this paper.

It's hack reporting and knee jerk reaction that is making people likle yourself think he is deluding himself etc.

Salmond knows how the system works better than you or I ever could, so calm down a wee bit.
78

Grahamski,

Falkirk 29/01/2009 07:35:32
91
Mr Salmond may indeed know how the system works. That doesn't stop him telling lies. I wonder what today's will be - perhaps that he has brought peace to the middle east?
79

Am Balach,

Isle of Skye 29/01/2009 07:44:12
The vast majority of homes in Scotland are either timber frame or stone. They are not double leaf brick like England so cannot have cavities injected with insulation.

There is hardly a house in the Highlands that would benefit from the Greens stupid scheme - it is nonsense and they know it.

Looking forward to the Greens losing their seats.
80

Phil C,

29/01/2009 07:46:31
Like many other issues, the minority SNP government cannot just call an election on their own. They can call a vote on it but 66% of MSPs would have to back the call. I can't see cowardly and snivelling Labour, or their Libdem poodles, doing this. They will continue to obstruct wherever possible, damaging the country.
81

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 29/01/2009 07:50:01
95

Agreed. For me, this is the camel that broke the straws back. Labour have shown thier true colours and the Greens? Well they're an overtly Marxist party with no future in Scotland now.

I would be mighty surprised if the other parties backed an election. Why? They know they would be out on thier erses.
82

Fecker,

29/01/2009 07:59:50
spoilt kids in the playground, dinnae give me whit I want or I am going in the huff....and these clowns are "running" the country.
I am always glad to know that I voted double "no"!! its the idiots that voted "yes" that are to blame for us having this shambles in the first place
83

,

29/01/2009 08:00:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
84

Grahamski,

Falkirk 29/01/2009 08:03:33
99
My goodness a homophobic nationalist, whatever next.....
85

cabrach loon,

inverness 29/01/2009 08:03:50
regrettably Harvie has done to Scotland what green Ford did to Aberdeen council - shafted it for his own personal agenda rather than that of his constituents and the nation. I hope the electorate wake up to realise that he is not following their interests but just his oewn selfish ones. Well Ford received his come-uppance hopefully Foird will too. No matter what one sys the SNP arte the only party who put the Nation at the top of the agenda! Can destructive labour do that. Look at Broon a local chiel frae Kircaldy with no trace of a Scottish accent any longer, jist a gape like a codfish.
86

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 29/01/2009 08:05:41
100

That was far from a homophobic comment. It was merely an obversation of the objects like of a good time in bed.

Same comment could be applied to women, men or whatever you like.

Only you are trying to twist it into something it is not. You must be a Lie-bour party spin doctor.
87

Longdirk Maceth,

NZ 29/01/2009 08:07:04
100, p r i c k.
88

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 29/01/2009 08:08:07
RBNR

Please, the SNP back myriad of wave and alternative power generation. The Greens back putting some insulation into some homes.

I don't remember reading antyhing about the Greens backing the SNP's renwable power generation projects....
89

john z,

edinburgh 29/01/2009 08:08:15
Patrick Harvie behaved publicly like a spoiled sulking child yesterday. Hardly the behaviour of a 'talented' politican. Grow up Patrick, and stop having public hissy fits because you don't get your own way. You're giving gay people a bad name.

He effectively got what he wanted, but apparently decided to vote against it because he only got it at the last moment. What a wean!!

Come the next election, people will not forget the childish behaviour of the greens or Labour.

And as regards Labour, what they did yesterday was just wholly irresponsible. They were given concessions, but decided to use the budget as a means of playing political games.

Listen up Mr.Gray, this budget affects the people of Scotland. Every single day now added because of your moronic behaviour delays money going to colleges, councils, elderly care homes, Schools etc.

The list is almost endless.

Labour and the greens yesterday showed just why they are not in power, and NEVER SHOULD BE.
90

Conan the Librarian™,

29/01/2009 08:09:46
100

A sensible Anarcho-Syndicalist?

With a sense of humour.
91

Phil C,

29/01/2009 08:10:14
It's not the Greens that are the problem. It's self-obsessed Labour. The word concensus doesn't enter their vocabulary. Hopefully they will soon be gone as a force in Scotland and the UK. I won't hold my breath though with so many numpties still voting for them.
92

john z,

edinburgh 29/01/2009 08:11:16
It was sad to see yesterday that Tavish Scott can't think for himsalf, but has to do Labours bidding. I actually quite liked Tavish. Until yesterday.
93

paulr,

edinburgh 29/01/2009 08:11:49
It is typical of politicians, some little nobody leading a mickey mouse party spots an opportunity to catapult himself into the spotlight and naturally he jumps at it, regardless of the cost to the country, regardless of the damage he is doing to the country and uncaring of the problems he is deliberately causing the electorate.
94

Conan the Librarian™,

29/01/2009 08:11:51
103

Thanks Dave, where have you been?

Don't say Barra.
95

Grahamski,

Falkirk 29/01/2009 08:12:33
104
Again, words fail the colonial nats...
96

Grahamski,

Falkirk 29/01/2009 08:13:37
103
Absolutely, isn't it about time you were telling us some of your best friends are gay?
97

Phil C,

29/01/2009 08:13:41
#112

Not true. I second his sentiment!
98

TWC,

29/01/2009 08:13:56
108 Phil C,
I agree Elemer Fudd(Gray) should have voted against first pass or abstained this time.
Anabelle Goldie gave him a well deserved roasting on the radio.
She also said that the Tories and the Nats had nothing to fear from an election but Labour should be trembling.
99

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 29/01/2009 08:14:02
111 Conan

Damn it! That was my only explanation apart from a wee visit to the Barralands to see the Vatersay Boys before Xmas!

Just the usual mate, fishing, crofting, looking after the sprats....
100

Grahamski,

Falkirk 29/01/2009 08:14:28
110
Too true, but I think you're being a wee bit harsh on Mr Salmond....
101

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 29/01/2009 08:15:00
112

I found his comment quite insightful, accurate and to the point.
102

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 08:18:34
Poor Patrick Harvie, Greens reduced to a pair at the last election, you can see why now.
He was completely out of his depth and comfort zone, obviously has never been involved in even the lowest levels of "negotiation" before now and is overwhelmed at this level.
He has apparently never been at a meeting where body language or a glance can be enough to indicate a shift of policy or allegiance.
Sorry, Patrick but having three months space to negotiate does not mean that anything can be decided in that time, there are plenty of examples around if you care to look for them.
The next Scottish Election will probably see the Greens further squeezed as for a start probably not all that many folk would make insulating their loft an election issue. Our loft is very well insulated, only a four inch layer of insulating material but about four tons of other things. At our age we do not want to have to empty this out for sentimental and physical reasons. Patrick are you going to pay the loft laggers to move all this stuff for us ?
103

Conan the Librarian™,

29/01/2009 08:19:27
118
Dave, I think Grahamski has a very small point.

To make.
104

TheSmith,

29/01/2009 08:21:38
Harvie at least got what he wanted - his face in every paper and on every Scottish news bulletin.
A lot cheaper than a Green marketing campaign...
105

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 08:22:25
The article in the Telegraph pointed out that this is the kind of situation you get when you have a PR electoral system. Small minority parties can find themselves holding the balance and attempt to exert influence out of proportion to their electoral mandate.

Very often the egos of the protagonists and their 15 minutes of fame exarcebates the problem.
106

,

29/01/2009 08:22:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
107

,

29/01/2009 08:29:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
108

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 29/01/2009 08:32:26
;-)
109

Phil C,

29/01/2009 08:33:18
#120 Wardug

I think you're right about the budget getting through and all will bumble along...


but many things will happen.....some day. Like the people of Scotland making their own successes or mistakes in their own country.
110

brownlie,

29/01/2009 08:33:28
Conan, Dave,

Stop belittling Grahamski, he can do that for himself merely by posting!
111

caithness,

29/01/2009 08:34:47
Annabel Goldie showed herself as the only opposition leader to put the needs of Scotland first. Labour still sulking because they're not in power together with their bedmates the Fib Dems. Makes me proud to vote Tory.
112

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 29/01/2009 08:35:18
brownlie

yes dad.............;-)
113

Scotsbloke,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 08:35:36
123 - What is wrong with that?

Are you suggesting that Patrick Harvie is the only politician with an ego.

John Swinney is the worst of them all assuming that his last minute deal was going to win votes. He should have had all this sorted weeks ago.



114

Grahamski,

Falkirk 29/01/2009 08:35:37
124
Enough, theis is turning into carry on nat, oooh missus.....
115

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 08:36:22
#106 John z and others; absolutely agree. Heard Harvie interviewed on the Beeb last night - a self-important little prig, stamping his foot petulantly. And why did the Beeb then find it necessary to then wheel out Eco-fascist Duncan McLaren to back him up? - I certainly never voted for Harvie and his 'principles' and no one has ever voted for McLaren. This is as good an argument as any for culling the parasites on the 'List'.
116

TWC,

29/01/2009 08:39:50
132 Scotsbloke
C'mon he threw a hissy fit, and if we could only have an election he'd be lucky to regain a single seat.

We're talking about pennies here compared to the Fiscal Stimulus that Westminster is throwing about. What proportion of the Fiscal Stimulus will come to Scotland????
117

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 29/01/2009 08:41:13
133

ok. Enough.

BTW, ol' Tavish will push the budget through. Why? Because only now he realised what political damage he is doing and probably wants to distance himself from lie-bour dummies.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7857232.stm
118

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 08:41:36
132 Scotsbloke
"Are you suggesting that Patrick Harvie is the only politician with an ego."

No I certainly am not. I think though that the "15 minutes of fame" aspect is particularly relevant to him but, once again, he is not unique in this respect.

119

Lumpy Dan,

Partick 29/01/2009 08:42:34
Patrick Hardie looked and sounded like a monkey in a cage last night .With the Greens only mustering two votes he needs to take a huge dose of political reality ,take a deep breath and take what he can get.
120

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 08:44:05
#110
You've hit it on the nail.
Patrick Harvie and the Greens - same effect as biting mice.
121

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 29/01/2009 08:55:10
Why don't we all email Patrick? And maybe a few Labourites too? And tell them exactly what we think.

Email addresses will found on a "wabsite" somewhere on the interweb.
122

jdships,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 08:55:13
The country is being held to ransom by a small party with less than 3% support .
We were warned that this was the sort of problem which would arise under PR.
Councils are in eaxctly the same position.

Sad situation all round.
123

Conan the Librarian™,

29/01/2009 08:56:30
OK let's be serious.

With a minority government something like this had to happen sooner or later.

Bring on the election.
124

Angleland Isover,

29/01/2009 08:58:05
118 on the button.
125

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 29/01/2009 09:01:16
Election now - elect a Tory Scottish Parliament which will stand up to Brown's unelectted junta !!!!
126

Rodster,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 09:03:44
Watching #Patrick Harvie with Michael Crick was embarrassing .
A little man in every sense enjoying his 15 minutes of fame , he put his own self importance before a nations needs .
Like so many politicians of all hues ,it was his ego and his views that were more important than the common weal.
There will be no election of course , this will all be sorted out behind closed doors .
The SNP government will claim victory for common sense and their budget ideas .
The Greens will claim victory for their determined stance .
The Tories will claim victory for their support of the budget and the £200 million of concessions that they screwed out of the SNP .
Tavish and his lot will claim victory saying they held the government to account but actually achieved nothing , while agreeing with 99% of the actual budget in front of them .
However as always they just have to oppose any measure of the SNP government .
Labour will say it was all there idea the SNP are bad , very very bad and that the victory is theirs!!
That only they have the ideas to fix Scotland , UK , the World , The universe, everyone else is wrong except Labour , the SNP , The IMF The FFS anyone that does not agree with Physco Gordon is wrong
127

Jolly Jack Tar,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 09:04:05
Idiotic power games to get publicity that will cost millions in a fragile economic climate.
128

Doh,

29/01/2009 09:04:08


The budget was a do-nothing budget anyway, basically the same as last year with inflationatry increases and a bit of tinkering.

Parliamentray rules should be changed so that what ever the fat controller says goes, then we could save money on elections.


129

salmondella,

UK 29/01/2009 09:05:20
I hope that there is a compromise deal, I could not bear another election.

Politics in the UK is dulsville. There really is not much difference between the parties who all have modest programmes and policies that do not set my heart beating with excitement.

The SNP could have went for bust with a bold socialist budget which would have got a great echo of support in Scotland. If there is an election they should stand on a programme of real socialism and show the Labour Party what radical measures really are.

But they won't because they are just another bosses party and the pantomime will continue.
130

Nevsky;,

Moscow 29/01/2009 09:09:24
150 salmon#

Socialism lol...no thanks!
131

Virgil,

West Vancouver 29/01/2009 09:10:44
In the Canadian Parliament defeating a budget automatically calls for the resignation of the government..either to an election or to a coalition but
usually election. Are the rules different in a Scottish Parliament?
132

Conan the Librarian™,

29/01/2009 09:15:06
153
Virgil
The rules were made up by the Westminster Government to cause this sort of thing!

They thought Scots would vote Labour for ever.
133

Calum10,

29/01/2009 09:15:22
THE GREENS LOADED THE PISTOL

TOOK AIM

FIRED

AND BLEW A BIG HOLE IN THEIR FOOT

No one, repeat no one, will take the Greens seriously after this. They got their concession and voted AGAINST it. They make Labour look competent.
134

brownlie,

29/01/2009 09:18:47
131/141 Dave from Barra

Tapa leat, a bhalaich! Sadly, you will have difficulty contacting Patrick as his web-site is down and no longer replies to e-mails. I cannot think why!
135

Elethiomel,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 09:22:03
#154 Cause what sort of thing? and how does that relate to Labour?

Yes they are different Virgil, they now have some time to get an ammended budget through, another crucial difference between Scotland and the Uk is that the FM cannot call an election, it happens on a timetable.
136

John south of Soutra,

29/01/2009 09:22:23
It's about time all these clowns in both Westminster and Holyrood started acting like grownups and came up with real ieas about how we take things forward. All this petty political posturing is pathetic, there won't an election because none of them have the b***s to go for it because they are all scared that they will lose their cosy little existence. The reporters in this newspaper know there has to be a 2/3s majority to trigger an election and I can't see any of these turkeys voting for Christmas, Scott & Grey are palying games with peoples futures, if they were serious about improving things they would have come up with alternative proposals but they seem more intent to score political points.
As for posters 1 & 2 what tripe you both psot and as for congratulating each other give me a break, how come you are both 1st on these boards do you not have a life, or do you get paid to post and given a briefing of what to say
137

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 29/01/2009 09:25:43
Ian Grey in power without an election, mmmm. Followed by a huge hike in poll tax, and an election soon after all, when he receives a vote of no confidence in parliment?

I can't wait - bring it on!
138

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 29/01/2009 09:26:08
I find it amusing that last year Labour were ridiculed for abstaining and this year theyb are being criticised for voting against it. It all seems a little bit childish as the differences between the parties are minimal. One thing it has done is yet again associate the SNP with the Conservatives, if the Unionists had the intelligence i might describe it as " a cunning ploy".
139

ddmc,

29/01/2009 09:27:33
lets have an election, the greens will go the route the SSP took, oblivion. Lie_bour & Fib dems will get nowhere & the snp will get a working majority, with the cons picking up extra seats

gosh the lexical analysis software doesnt like lie-bour as one word, paraniod at the jp or is it becuase its too close to the truth !
140

Uhuru,

By Ayr 29/01/2009 09:28:56
Such behaviour is truly unacceptable. It demonstrates such small mindedness, short sightedness and a sense of vastly overinflated egos.
Delaying budgets, further eroding confidence during such difficult times and as we face an even more difficult future - what are you playing at? Confidence needs to be restored as an essential part of economic recovery.
141

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 29/01/2009 09:30:36
3 weeks ago, I came across Salmond and Harvie having a very convivial lunch at an upmarket restaurant in Leith. They were concocting a deal whereby the Greens, at the first time of asking, would vote down the SNP budget. This would show Harvie in a good light within his party and would show the Scottish public that he is a political player (laugh laugh). Salmond would express indignation, threaten resignation and an election, and show that he is a politician not to be trifled with (ho ho). Thereafter, the Greens and the SNP would enter into serious negotiations (hee hee) and, lo and behold, the SNP budget would be voted through at the second time of asking with the support of the Greens. You couldn't make it up, could you? Anyone want a wager that this is what will happen? No? I thought not.
142

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 29/01/2009 09:36:12
I hope there is an election and Labour and the Lib dems are wiped off the Map in Scotland. I don't think it will happen but it would be good to see the SNP in a position of great strength.
143

Stan Butler,

29/01/2009 09:42:51

I hope there's an election as soon as possible so that the Scottish people can give their verdict on the SNP/Tory administration.

'We didn't mind the economic side so much'

Is that why your allied to the Tories, Fat N'Eck?
144

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 29/01/2009 09:43:16
#155 Callum10

Agreed, the Greens certainly blew a very big hole in their foot:

A big, trident-shaped hole, the size of a nuclear power station.
145

Stan Butler,

29/01/2009 09:43:59

#166 Lance Boyle

Did Fat N'Eck have seconds?
146

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 29/01/2009 09:45:15
If a new generation of nuclear power stations are to be built in Scotland, perhaps they will be known as "Harvie's Follies".
147

AJ Fife,

29/01/2009 09:45:19
Forget the current sabotage by the Labbour Party, check out this, it'll make you smile :-
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/celebrity/prince-philip-alters-will-200901121504/

148

Ecce,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 09:52:37
How I wish Annabel wisnae a Tory. She's got more b***S than the rest of them pit thegither.
149

Simon M,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 09:54:09
Election footing? I know Salmond struts around like a fat wee Emperor, but he has to realise that it's not in his power to call an election.

If his administration does the decent thing and resigns, Parliament would have a month to elect another administration.

And a new administration might have a stronger mandate, particularly if it represented more than the 36% of seats that the SNP minority government currently does.
150

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 09:54:11
168 Brown’s Butler
“Is that why your allied to the Tories, Fat N'Eck?”

From the Scotsman.
Published Date: 18 August 2008
By Hamish Macdonell
Scottish Political Editor
IAIN Gray, the frontrunner in the Scottish Labour leadership race, raised the prospect of a groundbreaking pact with the Conservatives yesterday as a way of taking on the Nationalists in the Scottish Parliament.
Speaking to a leadership hustings meeting in Aberdeen, Mr Gray said Labour and the Tories shared the similar aim of reducing council tax bills for the most vulnerable.

Mr Gray said Labour wanted to exempt pensioners from water charges while the Tories wanted to give pensioners a 50 per cent council tax reduction.

He said: "We really have to ask ourselves if we cannot find a way of getting some kind of compromise which would get relatively immediate succour to at least a section of the population and by working together actually drive that through the parliament."

Mr Gray said the Labour Party should be prepared to undertake that kind of cross-party approach if it was to use the parliament of minorities to its advantage.
151

,

29/01/2009 09:54:31
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Reason:
152

brownlie,

29/01/2009 09:57:30
166 Lance Boyle

"You couldn't make it up" yes, you did!
153

noswod,

Honestas 29/01/2009 10:00:29
Wee Ecky looks as if you are going down together with your short-term give em the money make it free concepts of Government. An immense opportunity has been lost to display that Scotland could have an independent consensus Government which focused on tackling the long term structural problems that face Scotland and can only be solved by intergenerational Government policies. (Otherwise whet the Dutch and Scandinavian Governments do) But no, points scoring small minded, bitter, buying votes, make it free don't care how its going to be paid for, blame it on Labour, a new poll tax, short termism and quick fix Government policies. Otherwise the anathema of what is considered to the essential differentiation factor of Scottish political and social theory since the enlightenment. You cannot have free Government services without taxation and without a viable economy to support a tax base. You also can’t tackle the crisis of Drugs and methadone use in deprived areas unless you apply consistent social and economic re-engineering policies over a 40-50 year period.


154

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 10:00:45
''Lib Dems offer new Budget support'' BBC.

Iain Gray tells BBC it's not too late to sort a budget out.

Macavity - a Scottish MP who's constituents will be affected by this nowhere to be seen - as usual.

Strikes me there are two parties feart of a GE - and it isn't the Tories or the SNP. Tavish Scott's crawling in particular is stomach-churning.
155

Ananurhing,

29/01/2009 10:01:14
Patrick Harvie lost a lot of respect from a lot of people yesterday. All for his moment in the spotlight. I hope he's punished for it come the next election.

A lot of back peddling going on now from Harvie ("this is not a crisis" i.e Oh sh*t, what have I done!), and Tavish. The usual transparent, disgraceful display from Nuslab. "We'll demand you find new money, while our masters put the squeeze on you."

You'd think they would learn. Every time they put Kerr and Gray on TV, they make themselves more unelectable.
156

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 10:04:29
Although I think Harvie was mainly motivated by a hissy fit I don't disagree with the Green Parties position. I think that Swinney should find the money for insulation - that will also bring employment opportunities - maybe not the hundred mill but a portion of it, and new money, not re-packaged. If he does that then the Budget can pass. The Libs and Labour should get NOTHING. They brought the budget down - not the Greens, and they have nothing to put in it's place. That is sheer irresponsibility.
157

AJ Fife,

29/01/2009 10:07:14
#183,

Mr Harvie didn't take into account the 'carbon footprint' of an extra buget debate. I bet he feels more than a little foolish now!

As for Mr Gray, don't you think his teeth are going to lose him thousands of voters. Rotten yellow teeth might be the order of the day where he comes from, but the rest of Scotland cherish their choppers.
158

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 10:08:13
183 The Greens only asked for one thing and they didn't get it in a format that would be acceptable to the party membership. I don't think they are to blame for this, although they are a useful scapegoat.
159

Grahamski,

Falkirk 29/01/2009 10:12:35
184
'The Libs and Labour should get NOTHING.'
Oh dear oh dear..hissy fit? Consensus politics? Fleet of foot - slack of jaw, more like.
160

drunken proffet,

Tassy 29/01/2009 10:12:45
Cheez, from outside looking in, the Conservatives back the government accepting that it is an essential part of helping Scotland. The Greens hope to get brownie points for spending ratepayer's money on insulating houses. The Glasgow council has already invested a large amount of money on double glazing in the eighties and no doubt quite a large number of their properties with rising damp, falling damp and sideways damp cannot be insulated in the first place. The Lib Dems appear to be relying on spin merchants and flavour of the month to increase their votes. The Labour party in Scotland does what the Labour Party usually does. Disagrees with everyone else. See if you can get rid off the guys who wear funny hats and sing Russian songs you would be part of Scotland's future. Well Scotland is a socialist country. It is just that a lot of you guys are not Scottish Socialists.
161

 sm753,

29/01/2009 10:13:51
152 / 157

What language is this?
162

Stan Butler,

29/01/2009 10:14:19
#175 Citizen Ken

Did you see him on Newsnight last night wobbling along the corridor at Holyrood?

Seriously, the guy should exercise some self control. It can't be good for his health being that fat.
163

57vintage,

NE 29/01/2009 10:18:41
I thought Swinney came across quite well last night but so did Harvie. Those who criticise the Greens should remember that Harvie and Harper too have party members who would want to have a say and the late and unsatisfactor announcement about the shortfall meant that members could not be consulted and the detail of where the £11m was to come from could not be given and considered.

Like it or not, we have PR, are destined to have many minoroty administrations in the future whether in develoved or independent Scotland and the Greens have every right to have proposals put to them on time and in sufficient detail to allow discussion and decision-making.

I suspect that Swinney would have nade the peanuts adjustments to give the Green Party its additional £11m but that there are more macho, briankmanship-type strings being pulled. I hear from good sources that the Finance Minister is becoming increasingly frustrated with the ego and control-freakery in the party and Cabinet. I think it showed in last night's interview. One can only guess who is the puppet master and the controller.

The Greens will get their guarantee, the Bill will go through and life will go on.

Did Swinney and Harvie, as twin slapheads, give an actual factual real-life demonstration of two bald men arguing over a comb?

164

brownlie,

29/01/2009 10:21:46
187 Grahamski

Excellent and spot on, as usual. Those who voted against the interests of Scotland should be suitably rewarded, possibly with the odd knight-hood or lordship from a grateful PM.
165

brownlie,

29/01/2009 10:23:50
190 Stan Butler

Your concern about the First Minister's health does you credit and is clearly not intended to be an insult in any way.
166

Stan Butler,

29/01/2009 10:24:22
#191 57vintage

Your appraisal of the personal politics within the SNP leadership is spot on.

Swinney seems like a decent human being.

Salmond, on the other hand, has something of a mickey mouse demagogue about him.
167

Grahamski,

Falkirk 29/01/2009 10:26:43
192
Oh right, pretending you're not a nat today are you?
Good to see you share your leader's propensity for deceit....
168

,

29/01/2009 10:27:58
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
169

Old Cartha Boy,

Dumbreck 29/01/2009 10:28:14
The article said Patrick Harvie felt that John Swinney, the finance secretary, had tried to make him look like a fool. Mr Harvie doesn't need any help for this to come about!
170

Stan Butler,

29/01/2009 10:28:16
#193 brownlie

Fat N'Eck is an arrogant, pompous bully.

Personal insults are therefore not only appropriate but beneficial to the body politic.

You have to admit though, he is extremely fat.
171

Rodster,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 10:28:21
191 194 Vintage and Stan possibly one in the same a couple of cousins of Grahamski the Horses botty .
Do tell us Vintage the very reliable source you have that John Swinney is unhappy with any of his cabinet colleagues.....
just another wee white unionist lie no doubt hmm?
172

watcher,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 10:29:38
Salmond has tried this tactic before. The Greens should call his bluff. The lost revenue from tourists using the Bridges would have paid the Greens off. I hope they push for an election, that would be the end of wee Cremola face.
173

,

29/01/2009 10:31:33
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174

Vigilant Watcher,

Bo'ness 29/01/2009 10:34:12
I am no supporter of The Greens but they are only getting it in neck as it only needed one of their votes for it to go through.

We should be looking at the motivations of both Labour and Lib/Dems who both voted it down in an apparent block vote. They are the ones who brought it down to requiring a casting vote form the Presiding Officer.

It would be particularly ironic if the failure did result in an election being held and they lost even more public support, and seats, than they have at present.

It is the last thing they either need or want at this time and even more surprising given the current economic crisis and their satisfaction ratings both at a national and UK level.

Just proves how irrational dogma really is!
175

brownlie,

29/01/2009 10:35:04
195 Grahamski

Come on, Grahamski, you and I both know that Gordon was not being "deliberately" deceitful when he spoke about no boom and bust or saving the world so kindly stop giving the nats any kind of ammunition.
176

Miss H,

29/01/2009 10:35:27
I don't think Patrick Harvie or the Greens should be viewed as the villains. They are only 2 out of 129 MSPs. If there’s a criticism of the SNP it is that they should maybe have tied that down before the debate – though I understand that they thought they had.

However I am pretty sure that they will be able to sort it out. Tavish Scott was also being very conciliatory on GMS this morning.

It was a laugh hearing Annabelle Goldie tell Ian Gray that the Labour Group had behaved like complete asses. He didn’t have an answer to that. What was also interesting was when the presenter asked Gray if he wanted to be First Minister and he replied of course I do and so does Annabelle Goldie. In other words NO I do NOT want to be First Minister. So why bring up votes of no confidence then? They will have to go through with that or look like even bigger asses.

PS: 191 - don't know who your sources are but I think they are rubbish.
177

brownlie,

29/01/2009 10:38:20
198 Stan Butler

I'm sure he appreciates your concern and will be persuaded by your remarks to change his policies and life-style.
178

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 10:41:19
187 They should get nothing because they contributed nothing towards getting the budget passed. The Greens did what it says on the Green tin. Harvie had to get a greater assurance from Swinney than he did in order to satisfy his party membership. I think it was essentially a misunderstanding, and one that can be sorted out.

There is no misunderstanding the position of the Labour Party. They are quite prepared to stand on the sidelines and carp. They are not prepared to put up an alternative budget or go to the country.

Tavish Scott's craven offer to drop the main plank of his party's anti-recessionary policy, the reduction of income tax, for a foot in the door is embarrassing.

The Tories have handled this entire situation with dignity.
179

Queen D,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 10:41:44
Joe ,
198 Stan Butler,29/01/2009 10:28:16
#193 brownlie

Fat N'Eck is an arrogant, pompous bully.

Personal insults are therefore not only appropriate but beneficial to the body politic.


I don't think this insult is an SNP one do you?
Or his ,in response to a little tale by another(little fantasy tale )
171 Stan Butler,29/01/2009 09:43:59

#166 Lance Boyle

Did Fat N'Eck have seconds?
180

Miss H,

29/01/2009 10:43:50

200 Well the SNP has gone onto election footing but none of the other parties has. If you listened to GMS this morning you would have heard Tavish Scott saying that he thinks there is no chance of an election - he means he hopes. Iain Gray said much the same thing. Looking at the polls the two parties who stand to gain from a snap election are the SNP and the Tories.
181

Queen D,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 10:43:58
The idiots in this fiasco are the Spiteful Party and their pals the Dum Dums.
The Greens are all of two , in Holyrood because of proportional representation and not because they were voted in, a kind of default seat!
182

The Tin Man,

29/01/2009 10:45:21
I find it interesting that some commentators rubbish the Lib-Dems 2% income tax cut proposal out of hand, but go on to defend a 3% LIT, which would cut revenue by a very similar amount.

Oh, the dichotomy of partisan politics...

Anyone going to be realistic and say that State funding has to be cut, or taxes have to increase?
183

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 10:48:42
213 the main person rubbishing the Lib Dems income tax proposal thie morning is Tavish Scott. He has dropped it quicker than a hot potato. As Miss H points out, it is entirely clear what parties are ready to go to the country if the budget doesn't pass a second time, and it sure as hell isn't the two main parties who voted it down.
184

Miss H,

29/01/2009 10:49:59
177 Putting the party on an election footing means simply getting ready for it - selecting candidates, canvassing, putting together literature etc.

We all know it is not within the power of the SNP Government to call an election but if they resign, as they will if the Budget is not passed second time, then the Parliament has 28 days to elect a new First Minister and administration or an election is called.

If you think Labour could put together an administration you are the only one that does. So an election is the inevitable outcome.

As I said earlier the polls tell us the parties with most to gain from a snap election would be the SNP and Tories. Lib Dems face meltdown.
185

brownlie,

29/01/2009 10:51:09
213 Tin Man

Okay, so after the 2% cut in income tax would the council tax be propotionally increased to make up the lost revenue?
186

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 10:55:49
216 a 2% income tax cut would be foolish in the extreme. It would be the equivalent of Brown's VAT give-away, which gave away revenue for no discernible benefit. Replacing Council tax with LIT is a good idea because Council Tax is a fixed item on any household's expenditure, and has a disproportionately adverse effect on those on low incomes. To just give away 2% on income tax to be spent on whatever won't make that much of a difference to the recession, but will lose the Govt much needed revenue. It's a daft idea that isn't going to happen so your question is academic.
187

Simon M,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 10:56:30
There would be no election - Fat Eck can't call one. Just because he says something doesn't mean it's true - as we are finding out on a daily basis.

The Parliament would vote on a new administration, perhaps one with more of a democratic mandate than 36% of seats in the Parliament.

Salmond and his lackeys have forgotten their platitudes about being in a Parliament of minorities and are drunk on power, though incapable of using it for Scotland's benefit.
188

The Tin Man,

29/01/2009 10:56:42
#214 Observer

It may well be a good thing to hold an election if the exec can't make Holyrood work.

I don't see why one tax-cut proposal is regarded as being stupid, and another one is regarded as being fair, though. They would both have to result in a similar level of unplanned cut-backs.
189

Mack1,

Carlisle 29/01/2009 10:57:34
Oh dear, the politics of the pork barrel has failed, again.
Go, on Scotland, have an election and vote for independence, you know it makes sense.
190

Miss H,

29/01/2009 11:00:36
213 That's not actually true - the LIT is costed on the basis of continuing to have council tax benefit. The shortfall is managable on that basis and can be met centrally.
191

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 29/01/2009 11:00:38
#215

i think you would be very suprised as to how an administration would be put together, remeber they all take their orders from london.
192

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 11:03:01
219 see 217. LIT is not a tax give-away, it is targetted. It does not need to lead to reduced public spending. I agree an election might be good fun but it's not going to happen as Labour and the Liberals don't want one.
193

The Tin Man,

29/01/2009 11:03:08
#216 brownlie

A 3% LIT rate cuts the revenue available for local authority spending by about 2%. Cutting income tax by 2% would have a similar effect. Both proposals have strikingly similar question-marks.

194

Grahamski,

Falkirk 29/01/2009 11:04:36
218
Absolutely, the good ship Nat is floundering on the rocks of reality and real politik. Mr Salmond was quick enough to brag about him being fleet of foot when parliament allowed him the chance to be first minister, however his overbearing arrogance has been his undoing. Now there is a surprise...
195

Miss H,

29/01/2009 11:05:26
218 yes there would be an election.

Who do you think would form an administration?

47 SNO MSPs
46 Labour MSPs
16 Lib Dems
16 Tory
2 Green
1 Margo

Even if Labour got the Lib Dems to go in with them (which they won't because it would be suicide for the Lib Dems) the SNP + Tories + Margo outvote them. There is no inducement that could be offered which would make either the Tories or Margo prop up Labour.

So you would either have an election or the nonsense of the Scottish Parliament eventually re-electing Alex Salmond as First Minister in order to avoid one.
196

Daveunderwater,

29/01/2009 11:06:34
Do Labour have an alternative budget?

If so can we have some details?

197

Miss H,

29/01/2009 11:07:03
227 No and no.
198

The Tin Man,

29/01/2009 11:08:25
#223 Observer

Even the SNP are saying that a 3% LIT is a LIT is a tax give-away. It significanttly reduces the amount of revenue gathered in Scotland for local expenditure. That can be refered to as a tax give-away.
199

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 29/01/2009 11:09:01
#226

We have a minority adimistration at the moment.
200

57vintage,

NE 29/01/2009 11:09:09
#199 and 205.

As you well know, revealing one's sources would be folly. I would say, however, that the source in this instance is rarely wrong in my opinion.

#199. "unionist" - you don't know me at all and are just guessing. I'm a "don't know/undecided" who supports a fair and democratic referendum on the constitution, at which point I will make up my mind. Does that confuse you in your sure and certain black and white world? I've been consistent on this for many years, having worked extremely hard in Yes For Scotland in 78-79 and for a double Yes vote in 1997. It's OK though, I don't need an apology.
201

Miss H,

29/01/2009 11:10:29
229 Yes it is a tax cut - but not to the tune of 800 million!
202

brownlie,

29/01/2009 11:13:09
225 Grahamski

So, Salmond is undone - great news for us unionists!!!

When did this happen????

Was the news released by the Beano or Dandy???

Is Gray taking over???

Is there going to be a choice between Gray and Green???

Do we have some-one over-bearing and arrogant to take over?

Is being thin a sign of intelligence and a political advantage?

Do keep up abreast of the latest news regarding this.
203

Miss H,

29/01/2009 11:13:18
231 Well I think he/she is wrong. It's not a secret that Alex Salmond is not a details person whereas John Swinney is. That's why he does budgets and Alex does the big picture stuff.
204

The Tin Man,

29/01/2009 11:13:19
#221 Miss H

"The shortfall is managable on that basis and can be met centrally."

The only way that someone can continue spending the same amount of money, when they receive less income, is by borrowing. Is that what you are alluding to?
205

Miss H,

29/01/2009 11:16:21
230 ???

Alex Salmond was elected as First Minister by the whole Parliament. It's not automatic that if you are the biggest party you get to form the administration.

What I am saying is that there is no conceivable way that Iain Gray could be elected First Minister and form an administration.

Even if the Lib Dems voted for him (and I don't think they would) the SNP, Tories and Margo would certainly vote against.
206

The Tin Man,

29/01/2009 11:16:35
#232

Only a £600MM shortfall? That'll be OK, then.
207

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 11:18:29
229 I don't think it is a tax give-away. LIT won't collect exactly the same amount as CT sure, but the shortfall can be made up centrally, which is funded from - taxation. The people who will feel the benefit of LIT are those on low fixed incomes who are currently being hammered by the CT. Those of us who can pay tax will continue to fund public services. Like I said it's targetted. Just giving away money is not.
208

Edward,

29/01/2009 11:21:59
I think the Greens,Labour and the Libdems are completely and utterly dillusional!
They seem to think that the Scottish Government can conjure up more money than its given by London!
London Labour may be able to obtain more money form either Tax, or cutting back services or obtaining loans. The Scottish Government is wholly reliant on the hand out from London, it des not have ccess to taxes such as coroporation tax or vat, it cannot borrow and it certainly doesnt want to reduce services (allthough Labour do want that)
Put it simply, if a person has £100 to spend and tghey cannot borrow more, then its £ 100 they can only spend!
I hope that the dilluded Greens along with Labour and the Libdems contiinue to vote against the Budget and that the SNP call an election and the result being the Greens, Libdems and Labour are wiped out completely!
These parties claim to look after the interests of Scotland, in reality they only look after there own interests, Im completely sick of them!
209

,

29/01/2009 11:24:58
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210

Mikey,

29/01/2009 11:25:09
What's the betting that the Brownshirts will sit on the hands at the next reading? They'll have been told by London not to rock the boat and like the scum they are, they'll comply!
211

,

29/01/2009 11:25:42
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212

The Tin Man,

29/01/2009 11:26:36
#238 Observer

As stated by everyone, a 3% LIT rate raises significantly less revenue than the CT currently raises. Saying that the shortfall would be 'made-up centrally' is about as well thought-out as the Lib-Dem's income-tax proposal. That is why I am contrasting the two proposals.
213

Grahamski,

Falkirk 29/01/2009 11:27:28
233
Are you still pretending you're not a nat?
Ashamed of the embarrassing false claims made and downright lies told by your leader, eh?
214

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 29/01/2009 11:29:30
#236

If the tories are told by London to vote for Gray as a means of getting at the Nats they will. In the long term they will act to preserve the union.
215

Edward,

29/01/2009 11:30:14
One question that fails to be asked by ALL journalists, to the Greens, Labour and the Libdems.
Is this, 'ok so you want this amount spent on your pet projects, exactly where is the money to be found?'
Not once have any BBC journalist asked this, why?
216

Miss H,

29/01/2009 11:30:28
235 No. The shortfall to local authorities would be made up by the Scottish government - as they have done with the council tax freeze. So there would be no reduction in the money available to local authorities. It would be funded centrally so yes that would result in less money to play with but not to the tune of 800 million or anything like it. You could not lose 800 million without doing serious damage which is why no party supported the Lib Dem idea (even them I suspect) not even the Tories who are traditional tax cutters.
217

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 11:30:29
243 You're comparing chalk and cheese, two entirely different policies, with two entirely different objectives. Seems a bit of a waste of time to me, but it's your time.

244 Dear dear Grahamski you are in snarly mode today. Do you have anything to say about the budget or is it just get-Salmond day today.
218

Miss H,

29/01/2009 11:32:35
Just been texted that 11 Feb is D Day for stage 3 second attempt.

219

57vintage,

Keith 29/01/2009 11:32:56
Brownlie - a propos your address on an earlier message "under a crumbling Charing Cross bridge".

Sorry to hear of your straitened circumstances old chum - could you not make a living by telling stirring derring-do Kingsmills anecdotes in local hostelries (do the Corriegarth - formerly owned by my late bro-in-law's parents - Craigmonie and Heathmount still exist??) all for the price of a pint? ;o)
220

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 11:33:54
Not remotely scientific but The Herald's poll is 92% in favour of the budget ! Ha ha even I am not going to attempt to claim that as an omen.....
221

subrosa,

29/01/2009 11:34:17
After speaking to an active member of the Green party last night, I'm now more aware of this insulation policy Patrick Harvie is pushing. It won't be applicable to many Scottish homes as the houses here, which require insulation, are mainly stonebuilt and therefore cannot take cavity wall insulation. They require internal insulation which is far more expensive.

This Green insulation policy makes no mention of internal wall insulation and therefore it is of little use in Scotland. Also it will only be provided for those on benefits, not pensioners who have just a wee bit of savings, but too much to claim any benefits.

There is already an insulation system in Scotland under Warm Deal and this gives nothing more.
222

The Tin Man,

29/01/2009 11:34:27
#248 Observer

Not in the slightest. The generally accepted LIT rate to balance with CT is about 4.5 - 4.8? %. The shortfall of about 1.8% is very similar to the 2% cut proposed by the Lib Dems.
223

57vintage,

NE 29/01/2009 11:34:47
#249

That's my birthday.

Donations in lieu of presents to the Gaza fund that the BBC refuses to publicise, please.
224

TWC,

29/01/2009 11:34:57
I would like a new election to get rid of Labour.

The Tories and SNP both want an election and that means that a new leader could not be chosen without Margo and she is too honest to support either major party leader.
Harvie should have abstained but the real culprit is Labour who once again offered nothing; voted yes; then voted NO without any change. They should have voted against at the first pass.

I hope the Nats bring in exactly the same budget and force the election.

225

Miss H,

29/01/2009 11:36:42
252 Warm Deal is just for pensioners. This would be for everyone.
226

Stan Butler,

29/01/2009 11:36:58
If there's an election will the Tories and the Tartan Tories be running on a joint slate?

And without wishing to cause offence (for once) will big Margo be standing?
227

Matt there,

Somewhere 29/01/2009 11:37:07
Nothing like a SIF (Single Issue Fanatic) to really mess things up.

Yeah. Get Labour back in power, Patrick. Then stamp your little feet as they build more nuclear power plants over your feeble protests.
228

Matt there,

Somewhere 29/01/2009 11:38:10
A little unfair, Stan, calling Labour the Tartan Tories?

Still, you might have a point there, after all...
229

Miss H,

29/01/2009 11:38:40
253 No it is not - you are not including CTB. CTB is included as part of local government funding.
230

British flag,

29/01/2009 11:39:17
Well,well. Looks like the nats will hve to go back to the drawing board! LOL.
231

Elephant,

Linlithgow 29/01/2009 11:40:58
#94 Am Balach
Good to see you are debating the policy principles of the Green's rather than the other to and fro tosh; however I have to disagree with your analysis. Whilst many of our homes are indeed timber frame or solid stone; equally important is roof / loft insulation since heat overwhelmingly RISES. This is a hugely important area for energy conservation here since Scotland actually has a disproportionate amount of single story domestic dwellings such as bungalows, steadings and indeed highland crofts!
232

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 11:41:32
252 there are numerous ways of insulating homes sub-rosa and it makes a quantifiable and demonstrable difference. Social landlords and local authorities have been leading the way here. It is eminently do-able on all house types.
233

subrosa,

29/01/2009 11:43:02
# 256

You're right of course Miss H. But it's not for everyone is it? It only applies to those who claim benefits.

So, similar to the pensioner situation, if you earn even just a couple of pounds over benefit level, then you won't be eligible. There are many working people who fall into that category.
234

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 11:43:05
257 I don't think the real Tories would stoop so low as to run with Labour. Labour are too right wing.
235

IainGlasgow,

29/01/2009 11:46:33
The SNP should not be making any concessions in the next budget vote. There is a stark choice for the parliament - back the budget or its fairly certain we will be going to the polls again (this time without any electronic counters courtesey of a company that has Neil Kinnock on it Board of Directors).

If Labour back down and vote in favour or even abstain they will have bottled it and look weak. If they vote it down again and force an election they will incur the wrath of the electorate, coupled with the general rule of thumb that in times of crisis you don't change the government (being at war got George Bush a second term after all) and the announcement the UK will be hit worst of all by the global recession. Either way Labour are firmly over a barrel. Brinksmanship is Alex Salmond's game, he is a baracuda in a pond full of minnows and will wipe the floor with them if they're serious about taking the game to him.

However if the SNP don't really want to force an election they should be trying to persuade Labour MSPs in marginal seats to abstain in the next vote - I'm sure the Labour MSPs won't want to risk being kicked off the gravy train when they can hang on until 2011.

As for the tories they have clearly aligned themselves with the SNP on this one. A wise move with the UK election not far away and the not too remote possibility of the SNP holding the balance in a hung parliament - that considered you'd think Iain Gray would be licking the First Minister's boots as well.
236

subrosa,

29/01/2009 11:46:53
# 264

I know it's eminently do-able Observer. Just spent over £1000 doing it in my own home. But the Green policy does not include internal insulation - that's my point. Internal insulation is the only answer to many old houses in Scotland.
237

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 11:47:09
265 sub-rosa it's for everyone.
238

brownlie,

29/01/2009 11:47:51
244 Grahamski

Pretence and deceit have won us successive general elections so why should we stop now.

Remember the successful "Tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime" "Labour whiter than white" "Education, education, education" "Wmds" "45 minutes warning" "No boom and bust" etc etc.

The problem is that the more we tell lies about the nats the more they will retaliate by telling the truth about unionists which is totally unfair and gives them a distinct advantage.

Word to the wise, old chum, don't give the nats an opportunity to gloat and make hay by referring to "embarassing false claims and down-right lies".
239

,

29/01/2009 11:48:00
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240

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 29/01/2009 11:52:40
90% of scots in favour of the budget? Wow - they will be queueing outside the toilets in Holyrood today.

Ian Grey must be sweating profusely by now. This was all a ploy to make Labour look tough this year, after the hammering they got at last years budget vote fiasco. Last year The Labour MSPs looked like cowards. This year they just look ridiculous.

I expect Tavish Scott and/or Harvie to bottle it and abstain by the next vote - looks like they are already beginning to buckle under the pressure. Salmond is not bluffing - he will resign if the next vote is not secured. One more try, which seems the sensible thing to do - then it becomes interesting. Unchartered waters. Ho Ho.

I can't wait - bring it on!
241

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 11:53:35
268. Yes the Greens proposal is based on Kirklees council and their house types. I don't think they have drawn up specs for other house types. So I think it's still a policy in the making on a technical level. But their idea is to provide insulation for all properties.
242

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 29/01/2009 11:54:27
There is absolutely no chance of an election - see 166; and I am willing to wager that, as a reward for their support, the Tories will be given a key role in the Scottish Government in the very near future.
243

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 29/01/2009 11:57:45
How could the LibDems get it so wrong?

People may well worry about tax cuts when everything is going well. In times of uncertainty, people worry more about keeping their jobs.

Same goes for green issues - only trendy during the good times.

Two parties on a death roll, spinning out of control.
244

brownlie,

29/01/2009 11:58:17
250 57 variety

Yes, the summer is fine but the winter's a fridge,
wrapped up in old card-board under Charing Cross Bridge.
And you'll never go home now because of the shame
of a misted reflection in a shop-window pane.

Still, no chance of being lonely as the poor get poorer and the rich manage to keep their cold clammy hands on their tax-exempted lucre.

Actually, I've been to the Heathmount not so long ago but my watering haunts were Gellions or the Cummings for the gaelic singing.

Not many tales of derring-do from Kingsmills as we seemed to be the Partick Thistle of the north - one week sugar, next week something else!
245

British flag,

29/01/2009 11:58:29
267.If they don't,they will be no more!
246

Niall,

Cairnbulg Aberdeenshire 29/01/2009 11:59:56
Yesterday Evening I downloaded the budget and scrutinised it carefully. In the present economic climate John Swinney has made the best possible use of the monies available to him. I am full of admiration for his masterly handling of the Scottish economy and budget. However if New Labour and the Lib dems persist in opposing this budget and it fails again then the Local Authorities will be forced to abandon the SNP negotiated council tax freeze and put the tax up to make good the shortfall. In the case of Aberdeenshire, a Band A house will go up from £1,013.69 to £1,199.92 an increase of £186.23p which is going to hit the low paid working people very hard in their pockets. New Labour the party and defender of the Workers? Don't make me laugh.

New Labour and the Lib Dems in Scotland do not have anyone who could be described as being competent to draft a budget. The Fib Dummies proposal to axe 2p off the basic rate of income tax is farcical because under the Barnett rules an equivalent amount would be deducted by the Treasury thus nullifying the 2p cut. It is quite obvious to me that New Labour and the Lib Dems care not a jot about Scotland only their political careers. Iain Gray is a ventriloquists dummy for Brown and Tavish Scott is a glove puppet manipulated by Clegg. Scotland has always been an insignificant member of this so called 'union' and the actions of the unionist parties merely confirm this.

Looking to the future I believe John Swinney will get a deal with the Greens about home insulation. I do not blame the Greens for holding out for more as it is an eminently sensible demand. I believe that there is enough slack to give the Greens most of what they want say £78-£84 millions and this will have the side effect of keeping building workers in employment as well as bringing a tangible financial benefit to pensioners and the low paid who are struggling with their fuel bills. My house is fully insulated and has been for 29 years and my fuel bills are ha
247

TWC,

29/01/2009 12:02:37
Elmer Fudd is harping on about apprenticeships again.
248

Niall,

Cairnbulg Aberdeenshire 29/01/2009 12:03:26
Continued: half of those of a neighbour without insulation and saves me over £800 per annum compared to his fuel bills.

If however Broonie wishes to have his 'Twilight of the Gods' moment and depart to Valhalla in a blaze of ignominy then he should order Gray to oppose the revised budget so that the SNP Government will fall and a general election will be called. The Scottish people now thoroughly cheesed off about rising council tax bills and the unbelievable lunacy of having an election in uncertain economic times will make sure that New Labour are exterminated and a stronger SNP led administration is put in its place. That cannot come soon enough for me. Better still the unionists could bring about the very thing they dread, a referendum which will consign them to become a footnote in Scotland's history.

'S Mise le meas
Niall.
249

Shave,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 12:03:43
It is unfortunate that the only three parties (SNP, Tories and Greens) showing an interest in getting the budget passed are today taking the flack.

As Observer rightly points out in #209 this is a misunderstanding that can (and I think will) be sorted out.

Of course, it should have been sorted earlier. But we are where we are. Get it right next time Mr. Swinney.
250

ecosseman,

facts not propaganda 29/01/2009 12:04:58
the green twins have lost the plot,they are just as greedy as the labour lords.
the snp cannot lose,if the budget is rejected(it will not happen)then the snp will wipe the floor in an election.
the london labour party is now so badly damaged,that no one can trust them.
the libs are dead in the water.no ones talking to them.so their in the huff.
the greedy greens are yesterdays people,as green policy aint just for them to spout about.
people in scotland are now wiser and bolder to say,we have had enough of corrupt london control and vote in volume for the snp.
election in scotland bring it on,ASAP!
then watch the propaganda stirrers disapear back to their caves for good.
ah peace in our time,at last.
251

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 29/01/2009 12:05:08
177 Simon

Proving that you are indeed simple !
252

Dargai,

livingston 29/01/2009 12:07:21
The budget failed to go through because a wee baldy man had a sore ego.Brilliant.
253

Rodster,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 12:11:53
FACT the budget will go through Labour and their bitches the Liberal Party will do what London tells them , and that will be "for Fcuks sake no election we will be slaughtered"
Gordon Brown does not like elections eg became leader of Labour party no election
EU Constitution no referendum no election
New high commissioner to Malawi cancelled because would have meant an election

The man (using the word in its loosest context) is in denial to everything and everyone and will only go to the country when he has no choice.
Labour will be in opposition in all parliaments in UK for many years to come irrespective if these parliaments in Scotland , Wales and England are separate or not .
Labour are finished for decades
254

British flag,

29/01/2009 12:12:05
Could this day get any better,a new car and salmond on the ropes!
255

Rodster,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 12:12:44
I cannot believe the Scotsman Uninoist Police do not allow the Lie Bour word on here
256

The Master,

29/01/2009 12:18:44
Rest assured that none of the major parties wants an election.

This isn't because the Nats are inherently popular but rather because any election would necessarily be dominated by wider UK economic issues.

Nobody's going to play into Supernat's hands so, if the Greens remain intransigent, expect a deal with Labour, although the Lib Dums appear to be falling over themselves to be first in their with the culty separatists turned Tory (if not sufficiently tree!) huggers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7857232.stm
257

Bejjy,

29/01/2009 12:20:05
#68 W Smith

Salmond will accept support from anyone, left, right, centre, muslims, christians, etc, etc., if it means furthering his own political and personal career. He is a self serving politician who has no policies of his own other than the populist bandwagon policies that he engages. The people of Scotland are becoming more and more aware of the antics of Salmond.
258

Rodster,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 12:22:52
289 Bejjy , when I read comments like yours and that of your fellow Btit Nats I am not surprised that the SNP are way ahead in the polls .
you are either a fool or you are like your leader in denial.
259

TWC,

29/01/2009 12:30:06
288 The Master

I think the Libdems are going to go in with the Nats playing their Fiscal Independence card, they will want to be on-side if there is any election - North or South.

I think you are wrong about the Election though the Tories are bursting to take Labour on anywhere and the Nats can smell Labour blood.
Recent Council Results for the Nats in Central Ayrshire are un - precedented akin to the Communists taking Kilmacolm.
260

Miss H,

29/01/2009 12:30:20
At FMQs Iain Gray suggested that a Budget could be set in June without causing any disruption!

I can just imagine Labour councillors tearing out their hair up and down the land.

Annabelle Goldie accused Iain Gray of trying to stage a bloodless coup and said he could expect no help from her.

Tavish Scott was quite conciliatary.
261

salmondella,

UK 29/01/2009 12:33:42
#282 an interesting scenario but #285 is closer to the mark. In politics change can happen very quickly - as Harold Mcmillian said in relation to the fortunes of political parties - " events my dear boy, events"

The past year has witnessed enormous change in the world and the SNP is not immune from this as are any of the rest of them. This wee situation with the budget has got a bit to run yet and anything can happen - up or down.
262

Bejjy,

29/01/2009 12:36:18
#290 Rodster

I think its you who is the fool if you think that the self-serving Salmond is the man to lead an independent Scotland. If Scotland were to gain independence, which I don't think it will in many of our lifetimes, the "Scottish Establishment" will dump the likes of Salmond like a ton of bricks. Any as I am not British having not been born in any part of the Uk I have no fellow Brit Nats (whatever they are) which you foolishly said I add and, please tell, who, in your wisdom is my "leader" It would seem that unlike you I am a free thinker who does not need to be led.
263

brownlie,

29/01/2009 12:38:28
289

Could you think very carefully before trying to identify which particular group(s)Salmond should avoid?

Do you know the meaning of the word "populist" and do you think Salmond or any other leader should adopt policies that would be unpopular with the majority of voters?
264

Rodster,

glasgow 29/01/2009 12:43:47
Bejjy the remarkable thing about these Threads is that All Nationalists on here like me are not ashamed or afraid to declare their political allegiance.
It is the many facets of British Nationalism like you that hide prevaricate and are ashamed and unwilling to declare their voting intentions or political belief so that makes you either A lab ,lib or Tory Patsy or of course one of the lunatic fringe UKIP or BNP nutters
That is the joy of being a Nationalist we have belief and pride in declaring ourselves .
you just continue to snipe from the sidelines like the usual cowardly type we are used to from the "Keep Scotland in the Union at all costs brigade"
265

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 12:44:44
293 Local government workers and civil servants would be out on strike in June if they don't get their cost of living increase in April ! Is the man mad I wonder, or what ?
266

Grahamski,

Falkirk 29/01/2009 12:45:06
293
No he didn't, he challenged the veracity of Mr Salmond's claims that we'd lose £1.8 billion if the budget wasn't passed immediately.
As is so often the case these days Mr Salmond has been less then honest, first about the £1.8 billion then claiming Mr Gray said there'd be no disruption. On both counts Mr Salmond has been caught out...I wonder what international statesman he'll claim contacted him today?
267

Grahamski,

Falkirk 29/01/2009 12:47:31
...my money's on Barack Obama asking permission to come to Scotland to honour Mr Salmond's homecoming....
268

Miss H,

29/01/2009 12:48:58
245 Annabelle Goldie categorically stated that they would not.
269

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 12:49:38
300 So you think it's acceptable to play politics with people's wages do you Grahamski ? BTW have a wee look at the Herald political blog spot - that gives you the entire low-down on the Kofi Annan thing. As usual it is Salmond's detractors who are spinning half-truths and nonsense.
270

Miss H,

29/01/2009 12:51:33
261 The Bill has already been re-submitted as it is. Was put in last night. Truncated timetable agreed - stage 3 11 Feb. Lib Dems and Greens I predict will vote for. Labour isolated.
271

Calum Crubag,

29/01/2009 12:51:37
So Patrick Harvey, what have you acheived? I've voted Green, admire the party but as someone who has no party affiliation - tribalism - i just can't see what you've acheived. Instead of having your £33m, you now have nothing. How is that helping the environment?

As to Labour, most SNP and Labour supporters probably agree on a lot. A sizeable minority of Labour voters even support independence. Why then, is the party so bitter and twisted? Is that what their big business and arms dealer friends want them to act like?
272

Miss H,

29/01/2009 12:53:01
265 No it is everyone.
273

TWC,

29/01/2009 12:53:14
298 Rodster,

I'm not a Nat but then again I don't know what I am.
I know that I will never vote Labour again( never is a long time) so let me say I won't vote for this Labour Party.
I may vote SNP if there is not a gigantic shift in Fiscal power.
274

Rodster,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 12:53:56
Tell me Grahamski as a child were you tampered with by some kiddy fiddler?
There has to be some logical explanation to your obvious insanity
275

Bejjy,

29/01/2009 12:54:05
297 brownlie.

Only weak politicians and Governments resort to "populist" policies. In my home country the Government, because of a problem of acquiring resources, has recently raised the surcharge on electricity and water tariffs by a whopping 185% much to the dismay and fury of opposition parties, the unions and, most importantly, the majority of the electorate. Now that is not a populist policy but one that the Government has had to make to protect the citizens from future shortages.
276

brownlie,

29/01/2009 12:57:53
301 grahamski

Hilarious posting as usual. Are you Frankie Boyle's script-writer?
277

Miss H,

29/01/2009 12:58:45
300 He said that a budget could be set in June. Go and read the Official report tomorrow it will confirm what I said.

The man is an idiot.

What effect does he think it would have on councils, health boards, the voluntary sector and so on if they don't get their allocations till June?

As I said Labour councillors will be going mental.

What a laugh.
278

brownlie,

29/01/2009 13:01:03
310 bejjy

That was just an aside and I wish your government well in their next election but can you address my main question, please?
279

Rodster,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 13:02:35
Thanks for that TWC #308 ,although my post was aimed at Bejjy and others of that ilk , we do appreciate your candour
280

Bejjy,

29/01/2009 13:08:46
#298 Rodster

Where did I mention anything about keeping "Scotland in the Union at all costs"; thats right, I didn't. And as for being "cowardly" about declaring my voting intentions; although I work and live in Scotland for much of the year I return to my home country for part of the year. I have not taken up voting rights in the UK so have not, do not and don't intend to vote for any particular political party in either Scotland or the UK. I think that you need to learn to understand what has been written rather than interpreting what you have read to fit your own narrow political slant. And tell me Rodster because I think that people like me need to know, would I as a "foreigner" be welcome to live and work in your independent Scotland?
281

AbandonAllHope,

29/01/2009 13:11:35
Bring back the Scottish Office
282

Miss H,

29/01/2009 13:20:37
John Swinney has written to all councils setting out the position regarding their funding.

I have just heard that Glasgow City Council are going to make a statement today.
283

salmondella,

UK 29/01/2009 13:23:41
#308 TWC -yes you do come over as confused but I don't blame you given the state of all the political parties at the moment.

I think it is important to try and have an international persepective to events at the moment in order to try and make some sense of the situation. The SNP cannot look further than Leith Walk or the top of Arthurs Seat and in the longer term would be a disaster for Scotland. The chickens are coming home to roost ( or is roast) for the NATS.

It will take time but there are still loads of good people left in the Labour Party taking on the difficult task of getting rid of Brown and his tory policies etc. Have hope TWC but do not waste your time on the cul de sac that is nationalism.
284

Venachar,

29/01/2009 13:28:32
Well done Patrick Harvie, have a hissy fit and throw your toys out of the pram when you don't get your own way.
As far as I am concerned the Presiding Officer should resign as from what I've seen he has broken the standing orders of the Scottish Parliament. It is clearly stated in the Standing Orders that the Presiding Officer should be impartial in everything he does. Voting against the Governments proposals is not being impartial. There is no mention in the Standing Orders of maitaining any status quo.
285

Miss H,

29/01/2009 13:35:53
318 OMG it will take time for the 'good people' in the Labour Party to take control again, will it?

How long do you expect people to wait exactly?

286

Sumlogic,

WhoCARES 29/01/2009 13:38:37
The UK is sinking in a watery sludge of debt and Scotland is sinking even faster. The UK may even be printing notes soon and your pound will be worth 'even less' than it already is!

So whoever wants the job of First minister or wins an election if one is called will become very unpopular anyway as taxes rise and services are cut...strikes over pay and redundancies to come as gloom rises over unemployment figures.

Yes, who cares, by the look of the state of things, no one up to now it seems!

Do yourself a favour, don’t even bother voting…it’s the same every time just dressed up differently!
287

Rodster,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 13:39:52
315 Bejjy let me answer your post in 2 parts anyone who has the best interests of Scotland and wishes to live ,work and contribute to the New scotland is more than welcome irrespective of their colour , creed or class.
To my other comment , I do not believe a word that you have written about yourself , that you are from abroad ,that you are just observing and making comment.
I think you are just another form of disrupter on here to try and trash anything Scottish , SNP or complimentary to this land of ours .
Every single post of yours has either been critical of our present government , our future aspirations and any positive comment made you have trashed .
So I rightly or wrongly suspect you are on of the trolls on here with several monikers and your sole intention is to try and disrupt the thread at least and rubbish the SNP at every opportuinty .
288

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 13:39:58
318 I am afraid you are sadly deluded. Anyone with any principles left the Labour Party years ago or has died. Unless you are a resurectionist you are likely to be disappointed.
289

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 29/01/2009 13:45:15
Having treated the two sincere Greens with a level of contempt they little deserve its no wonder they decided that the weak assurances on a sensible claim for increased home insulation etc should lead to their rejection of this unimpressive budget.

As news of the gloomy economic picture also shows Scotland to be in a worse state (thanks to the likes of RBS and HBOS for sure) than the rest of the UK its high time some more radical ideas were taken serious account of.

The LibDems at least had the gumption to offer the cut in local income tax by 2p, a power Holyrood has, thus putting some extra REAL money back into the pockets of Scottish citizens at a time when our local economy needs some extra spending input that this would surely come from the same local people.

It shows a contempt for the whole population as well as the Green and LibDem MSP's from a party in charge who lay claim to be the best representatives for Scotland. Don't they trust the people to spend OUR money more wisly than these partcular politicians can?

I know that theirs is a rubbish claim for Scottish hearts and minds and now more and more people will see the SNP for what they really are - forever a "one trick pony" and now more and more like a "busted flush".

Independence or bust - well it now looks like the latter, so bring on this election and more will be revealed about their overall incompetence.
290

Wisnaeme,

29/01/2009 13:49:04
.
I see that we're not allowed to comment on this subject in the 'Weegie' newspaper. They have four or five articles on the subject but it appears that they're not interested in their readers opinions on the matter.

Readers opinions aren't wanted or welcomed apparently.

Four or five articles on one subject, in one day.
My, It must be a terribly important subject of concern to us all.

So why do they not want our opinions on the subject?

Let me guess.

.
291

Ananurhing,

29/01/2009 13:54:45
#318

International perspective? You mean as in, " It's all America's fault, It's a global problem"! Or "Ha ha ha, look at Iceland and Ireland"! Or that international investors think the UK economy is finished? Or where in the world do you want us to bomb now Mr President sir? That kind of international perspective?

The only "good" people left in the labour party are there for tribal reasons, or personal gain.
292

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 29/01/2009 13:55:28
RBNR 328

Exactly, which is why Labour are no longer in power in Scotland. However, that hasn't stopped them preventing this budget and preventing a party that CAN run a nation from running the nation.
293

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 29/01/2009 13:57:42
327

It's because there is a hardcore of numpties that wrecked that papers on line forum. That hardcore is now on this forum and are easy to spot.

They are the ones with an anti scottish bias, anti-holyrood, anti-snp and pro labour and pro onion outlook.

Can you tell who it is yet?
294

Grahamski,

Falkirk 29/01/2009 14:00:09
Oh dear oh dear...The SNP administration fail to set an acceptable budget and guess whose fault it is?
295

Ananurhing,

29/01/2009 14:00:09
#328 Rules

Easy answer to both! Get rid of the labour party, and replace it with an autonomous Scottish labour party!

BTW saw a headline the other day alleging that you're meant to be bent!
296

Grahamski,

Falkirk 29/01/2009 14:01:38
331
You are absolutley correct on all your points. The extreme nationalists let down everybody including the SNP with their evil campaign of intimidation.
Gee, thanks guys.....
297

Bejjy,

29/01/2009 14:02:44
#324 Rodster

You are getting sadder and more delusional by the minute. If I accept that you are a Scot living in Scotland why cannot you accept that I am who I say I am; apart from your paranoia about me being "another form of disrupter", whatever that means (what am I trying to disrupt Rodster?) you have absolutely no evidence that what I have said about myself is not true have you Rodster? Unlike you I rarely contribute to these threads because I have work to do and a life to lead. From the comments that I have previously made on these threads under the one moniker "Bejjy" you will have noticed (or in your case probably not as you only see what you want to see) that I have been as critical of the New Labour Government at Westminster and other British political parties as I have of the SNP and indeed my own Government which is also a Nationalist party set up some forty years ago following much political violence and murders. So Rodster, my paranoid friend, you wrongly assume that I am a "troll" another word favoured by the Snp brigade who contribute here.

I look forward to your retort to my response to yours at #324, should be good for another laugh.
298

,

29/01/2009 14:03:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
299

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 29/01/2009 14:03:57
334

Spin docter somewhere else.
300

gordon'sboomhasbust,

gordonisbust 29/01/2009 14:09:14
It's strange that the Greens voted with Labour. I never thought that they supported Trident.
Live and learn I suppose.
301

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 14:09:19
332 Wake up. The Liberals are making concessionary noises, the Greens will come on-side, the Tories haven't wavered, and the Budget will pass. Leaving Labour totally isolated. Oh - but with their local council members well p1ssed off at Grays's dalliance with delaying the budget 'til June, with all the risks that runs. Dear oh dear indeed.
302

Rodster,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 14:10:57
#336 JWIl why stop at the guy directly behind Gray why not have them all removed from Holyrood and make the place better all round
303

brownlie,

29/01/2009 14:11:31
337 Dave

Come on, Dave, we unionists rely on pathetic individuals but not as spin doctors.
304

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 29/01/2009 14:13:41
341 brownlie

okay. apolologies!
305

Rodster,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 14:15:45
#335 Well Bejjy as you do not say where you are from (for some reason ) I choose not have any further discourse with you.
I don't know about you but we have a sort of democracy in this country.
We are all entitled to our say , I just chose to have no further say with you .
I retain my position until such times as you can prove otherwise .
seen so many dishonest posters on here to waste time on you , bad enough most unionists will not declare their party ,tell you ap olicy they support . only trash every Scottish government initiative or law.
You are new hiding your country of origin a new slant for anti Scottish sentiment.
Must be a new directive from Keir Hardie House
306

Miss H,

29/01/2009 14:17:14
335 335 You don’t vote here, you have no stake in the process, you have not actually contributed anything substantive to the discussion, you don't do political analysis just personal attack so what is the point of anything you say?

The only interesting thing you have said is that the ‘Scottish Establishment’ would dump Alex Salmond like a ton of bricks after independence and that’s only interesting because it is quite odd.

From your perspective who you believe ‘the Scottish Establishment’ to be?
307

Bejjy,

29/01/2009 14:32:36
343 Rodster

Rodster my paranoid friend. I will do a deal with you. You send me via these threads all your personal deals such as name, address, etc. so that I can confirm that you are who you say you are and that you are not a "troll" or a "disrupter" and once I have confirmed that you are who you say you are I will then send you via these threads my personal details. Have we got a deal my Scottish friend; no, I didn't think that you would agree to that. As I say, people like you are narrow minded and do not hesitate to criticise your fellow Scots for voting for the Labour party because their father and grandfather before them did so and yet you blindly follow an unproved political party such as the SNP and don't allow any criticism of that party without becoming abusive to the critic; very adult and politically aware I don't think. And thank you my paranoid friend for not wanting further "discourse" with me as I ususally only have such discourse with intelligent fellow human beings.
308

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 29/01/2009 14:34:23
"unproved political party"

What on God's green Earth does that mean?
309

frank mcbride,

lusitania 29/01/2009 14:35:41
#322, Grahamski.

Once again you are being mendacious.

The Budget WAS acceptable to the MAJORITY of MSPs.

Unfortunately the Presiding Office, because of his integrity, voted against, as convention dictated. Had he not been constrained by convention the Budget would have been ratified.

But you don't do integrity, do you, Grahamski?

A bit like NuLabTory!!!!!!!!
310

Stan Butler,

29/01/2009 14:38:12


SNP and Conservatives voted together to support the SNP budget proposals.


Presumably the Conservatives don't mind the economic side of the SNP so much.

Wouldn't Fat N'Eck and big Annabel make a lovely couple?
311

British flag,

29/01/2009 14:39:07
Idependence for Scotland! not in the next 30 years. You can't even agree on how to spend your money,how in hell are you gonna run a country!
312

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 29/01/2009 14:40:13
348

I was thinking Eck and your mum would make a lovelier couple.
313

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 14:41:57
345 I think you flatter yourself by referring to ''fellow'' intelligent human beings.
314

brownlie,

29/01/2009 14:42:04
345 Bejjy

I must have missed your answer to my question as to what particular group(s) from the ones you listed that should be avoided by the SNP.
315

Miss H,

29/01/2009 14:42:46
Holyrood Today are running the story that Labour are split on the No Confidence vote. George Foulkes – of course! – is pushing for it but others are against. A ‘senior Labour figure- (unnamed of course) is quoted as saying ‘We just want to get a deal done.’

http://www.holyrood.com/content/view/3508/10051/

Labour - falling apart at the seams already. What a laugh.

316

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 14:43:29
348 How about you coupling with Jackie Baillie then ?
317

Bejjy,

29/01/2009 14:43:48
#344 Miss H

Its called freedom of speech. Because I don't vote in your country (something that many of the electorate don't do even though they have the vote) I pay taxes to the British treasury as well as my hard earned income supporting the Scottish economy so I would think that I have a right to express an opinion.

Surely you are not that naive to believe that any Government in the developed world rules the country of which they are the elected Government. Just look at the UK and the USA, you tell me who the powers are in those countries. An independent Scotland would not be any different.
318

Bejjy,

29/01/2009 14:45:56
#351 Observer

Thanks Observer, another who seems to think that he knows me well. Unbelievable.
319

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 14:46:55
356 I have read your posts and made an observation.
320

British flag,

29/01/2009 14:54:44
353. You must be devastated,all your dreams up in smoke and independence nothing but a long lost dream.
321

Bejjy,

29/01/2009 14:55:03
#357 Observer

So i'm not "intelligent" or a "fellow human being" because I am critical of the SNP? Very democratic!
322

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 14:55:36
358 You really are remarkably stupid.
323

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 14:58:12
359 You haven't made any intelligent or positive points. Everything you say is negative. To claim that you are a ''fellow'' of other intelligent human beings claims that you share their qualities. You may indeed be a human being, I have no evidence to the contrary, but your claim to intelligence is not proved.
324

frank mcbride,

lusitania 29/01/2009 14:59:01
#Bejjy, many posts.

Is this you?

Bejjy,13/05/2008 11:32:12
#14 Guga 11

I am not a little unionist, a Scot or British but am, probably much to your dismay, a European living and working in Scotland. Now you tell me of any Western European country where that country's government does not screw the taxpayer?

and, is this you?

Paul, Bus lanes and public transport in general would improve greatly if there were less private vehicles on the road. Look at the experience of London. Since the congestion charge was introduced the number of vehicles entering the congestion zone has reduced by about 25% whilst the use of public transport has greatly increased. Of course, investment needs to be made into public transport but this can be achieved by utilising the congestion charges. Also bear in mind; less glogged up city streets equates to less environmental damage and better public health.
Bejjy, Ex Salford
6/07/2007 at 15:17

If so, for someone who DOES NOT and WILL NOT VOTE in UK Elections, you definitely seem to have an agenda.

I have to agree with Rodster, you do not appear to be what you say you are. Shall I "goggle" some more?
325

brownlie,

29/01/2009 14:59:44
354 Observer

It would be an honour and a privilege. I've got a picture of myself on top of Kilimanjaro.
326

frank mcbride,

lusitania 29/01/2009 15:02:01
#349, British Flag.

A bit like the UK, then?

Can you make a more stupid comment?
327

Rodster,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 15:02:37
OOps Bejjy , seems I am not the only person that can sense you are not quite what you try to portray.
You ask me a question then answered it on my behalf .
tis not I that is hiding behind any fantasy .
I am a Scot born and bred , A SNP voting one since I got the vote several decades ago.
I only comment on threads appertaining to my country , I am a business person that travels the globe even in these times .
I never make comment in things that do not concern me in counties that I have no stake or nor no vote.
Your defence of the Labour Party in Particular is quite telling lol
My god the lengths the Unionist Labour mob go to try and attack the SNP is unbelievable
328

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 29/01/2009 15:03:10
364 Frank

Yes, he can which is why he was banned under his other moniker English Fag
329

Dave From Barra,

29/01/2009 15:04:13
English Flag, sorry typo....
330

Rodster,

glasgow 29/01/2009 15:09:44
367# LOL Freudulent Slip
331

dude,

wishy 29/01/2009 15:09:52
How is it that the greens are having to beg for house insulation when Gordon Brown stood up last year and said he was going to spend 10 billion or whatever on this very thing, was this just another soundbite from New Lie bour.

Or is it another Union dividend, ie. just in England ie. Scotland can freeze
332

frank mcbride,

lusitania 29/01/2009 15:10:17
#366, Dave.

I'm aware of that and asked him, after Enlish Flag was canned, why he had added the crosses of Sts. Andrew & Patrick to his moniker.

Surprisingly, I didn't receive a reply. lol
333

subrosa,

29/01/2009 15:11:36
# 273

You're getting my point Observer. For Patrick Harvie to vote down a budget on a policy that won't apply to many Scottish homes was rather stupid wasn't it?

Perhaps they have ideas in the pipeline but lots of politicians have ideas.

The Energy Saving Trust used to advertise that there may be grants for internal insulation on their website. I complained because I discovered there was none. The paragraph was removed from their website before I received the reply from my MSP.
334

British flag,

29/01/2009 15:12:58
360. And you are remarkably unobservant,salmond is on a knife edge,one good push and it's all over! why! Because he is arrogant,condesending,and smug,he thought he had the greens in the palm of his hand last night,how wrong he was!!
335

dude,

wishy 29/01/2009 15:14:12
British flag - whats that the butchers apron

336

dude,

wishy 29/01/2009 15:18:30
A lot of you so called unionists are all flushed about the possibility of AS resigning, do you really think for a second that all the other parties will vote for the grey man, hahahaha.

My god you lot are easily amused, back to the point where Scotland is again subservient to London, no more rocking the boat, no more governance for the Scottish people just more of the same 'do less worse' that my MSP joke Mc was doing.

Its good to know that most people in Scotland dont want a repeat of this nonesence and will never vote New Lie bour again.
337

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 29/01/2009 15:19:01
Ach ignore British Flag.

He doesn't have much to add to the debate other than misinformation, reaction and provocation.

He doesn't even understand that this budget will go through as it has to due to saving face on behalf of lie-bour.

Otherwise, it will be lie-bours fault that Scotland lost an extra £1.8bn funding and the extra £33m asked for by the Greens to secure a vote was given but Harvie spat the dummy in a hissy fit.
338

dude,

wishy 29/01/2009 15:20:41
But what about this money Broon was promising, never heard anything since, another New Labour initiative
339

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 15:24:49
371 I think it's an issue that can be sorted out relatively easily with a form of words that will satisfy those Green party members who were on Harvie's case. He wants it sorted, the SNP want it sorted, it will be sorted.

There is EU money for insulation, grants, I know home owners in Glasgow get it, it's part of the GHA programme here as they have many factored owners. Go back to your MSP if it's available here it must be available where you are.
340

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 15:26:59
372 Hello roseblue kent. Tut tut. Try not to post the same ''unobservant'' comments. So are you a he or a she or a mixture ?
341

TARTAN TEDDY BEAR,

PAISLEY 29/01/2009 15:28:52
Are we ready? Yes we are!
Lets have an election now and get rid of these Greens
once and for all. They get more like the old looney
left every day. You can be sure they will support the
budget next time round, because if not they are out
of a job. John Sweeney should call their bluff and
give them nothing. Then allow Patrick to commit
political suicide.
342

Rodster,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 15:29:12
On the matter of insulation etc .
I would like to see somewhere wind turbines and solar panels being subsidised and installed in all homes in Scotland .
This could start a whole new industry as well as help our Green House gases etc.
Better that than throwing copious amounts of money at the spivs in the banks.
Let us create jobs and save the planet
343

British flag,

29/01/2009 15:29:40
375. Come on dave,you can do better than that! Salmond is on the rocks,he took things for granted and got caught short it's as simple as that.
344

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 29/01/2009 15:34:29
381

Um, no. Labour have left themselves high and dry this time. All political pundits will tell you that.

Whether salmond himself is on the rocks or not is moot, but the budget is sound,maybe needs a tweek but will no doubt get passed.

It's pretty clear, there is no agenda and the money is vital. If it doesn't go through, we lose an extra £1.8bn and that will be because of Labour not supporting the budget.

You trying to make an anti-slamond issue of it is irrelevant just now.
345

Rodster,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 15:35:19
Tartan Reddy Bear , go on tell us ,is it because he is in THE GREEN party and his name is Patrick that has upset you??LOL
346

British flag,

29/01/2009 15:39:25
378. Well for one i'm not from kent,and secondly, what does my gender have to with anything.
347

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 15:46:12
382 Hello second face of British Flag. Now, let's see, what were the chances of you co-incidentally signing on five minutes after I posted ? Schizophrenic or what ?
348

British flag,

29/01/2009 15:46:22
382. Indeed, rather amusing really. How are things in the "Garden of England" this fine day.
349

Rodster,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 15:49:48
You misunderstand British Flag he did not say you were from Kent , he said you act and talk like a Kent.. or something that sounds similar
350

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 15:50:20
388/389 Do you look in the mirror when you converse with yourself ?
351

Allan(handofgod137),

29/01/2009 15:52:15
#33 WTF are you on, and do your carers know you're posting again?
352

British flag,

29/01/2009 15:56:49
389. Excellent,have a dear friend who lives in west malling,visiting her soon. What do you make of the situation north of the border?
353

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 15:58:03
393 Hey come on girl/guy (which is it ?) post at the same time. Post at 16.00 exactly - both (ha ha) of you.
354

Observer,,

29/01/2009 15:59:25
394 - same time post. 1600. I used to live in London whereabouts are you both (sic) I might know your towns.
355

Rodster,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 16:13:25
Reading your comments here Roseblue Kent , remind us is there a nuclear power station there?
Because something has dissed your thinking .
the events of yesterday far from being bad for the Government of Scotland it was wonderful all this publicity and noise , and the opposition will crumble when the budget comes back to Parliament making them look like the idiots our Opposition are .
AS and John Swinney playing another blinder
356

Mallard,

Borders 29/01/2009 16:23:39
The Labour and Liberal numpties really ought to get a grip and try to do some real negotiation. Its time to realise they didn't manage to form the present government with good grace.

It was too bad that all that stopped approval was the conniving eco-fascist chancers wanting something that was not affordable.
357

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 16:24:11
399 I think what's distorted his/her thinking is that it is a multi-monikered troll. Ignore.
358

Grahamski,

Falkirk 29/01/2009 16:28:03
397
Mr Salmond has certainly been made to look like a fool, his hysterical performance at FMQs did him no favours. People with speech impediments really shouldn't do shouty angry exchanges - they just sound silly.
In the meantime we should get used to hearing bleating and blaming from the SNP supporters. They need to find somebody to blame for their incompetent economic polices, failure to deliver on their manifesto commitments and also find a way of avoiding a crushing defeat for their ill-conceived referendum plans. They've also got the thankless task of explaining away Mr Salmond's more outlandish flights of fancy.
Their real problem though is passing the blame for failing in the fairly simple task of guiding their budget through parliament. Mr Salmond pompously bragged about being fleet of foot when he was first allowed to be first minister.
After this shambles it's looking like rather than fleet of foot he's slack of jaw......
359

Scottish 'N British,

29/01/2009 16:32:12
Watching Swinney, one word came to mind - shambolic.

Taped it for posterity - it'll come in handy next time I find myself constipated.

SNP - a bunch of second-rate numpties.
360

Rodster,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 16:32:23
change of shift at Keir Hardie House , they have given Grahamski some more drugs and let him loose .
361

Rodster,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 16:33:49
*Surprise , surprise there are 2 of them lol time to change your tactics guys
362

Grahamski,

falkirk 29/01/2009 16:35:12
403
I genuinely feel sorry for Mr Swinney. He's a decent man who has been put into an impossible position.
363

Shave,

Edinburgh 29/01/2009 16:36:09
#399 Rodster - "AS and John Swinney playing another blinder"

What????

What kind of self-serving idiot would want the budget to fail?

How can this possibly be "a blinder"?

It could be described as unfortunate or a misunderstanding, but only an irresponsible sycophant would describe it as "a blinder".
364

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 16:37:51
402 Grahamski you are doing yourself a dis-service making posts like that. There is a serious discussion to be had about where we go from here, and I don't mean the Scottish budget, I mean the whole thing in general given global economic realities and the fact that we appear to be about to reproduce 1929 ninety years after. You are way more than capable of discussing that.

I'm guilty too of just posting silly stuff - ooh you get me so I'll get you - but if there is a point to this, then we are going to have to address the reality of the here and now.
365

British flag,

29/01/2009 16:39:50
397. My thoughts exactly, salmond should do the right thing and resign.
366

Rodster,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 16:48:48
This is definetely some kind of tutored posting technique .
One of these half wits comes on (or same twit pretending to be 2 different people)
One says something ridiculous but always negative about Scotland , the Government or an individual and the alter ego immediately agrees .
It is laughable and predictable
367

Miss H,

29/01/2009 16:50:00
402 I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you genuinely do not understand what he was shouting about.

But let’s clear up a few things for you. Iain Gray’s cloud cuckoo land promises - on the advice of a parliamentary clerk - that the Budget can be passed in June without any disruption for example. Not so.

Glasgow City Council for example will be setting its Budget on February 12 and not a day later. If the SNP Budget is passed, fine, the council's budget will increase accordingly. If the SNP's Budget is not passed it means that the Council will set its budget on last year's allocation - which will mean either a 23% council tax increase or the equivalent in cuts.

Who is the fool I wonder.
368

Rufus-T-Firefly,

29/01/2009 16:53:27
2 Wardog™,27/01/2009 00:14:30

The budget will be passed, another superb piece of minority government from messr's swinney and crawford.

I don't think we'll ever see First Minister Grey
=======================================================

Nostradamus Wardog.
369

British flag,

29/01/2009 16:53:45
411. He won't of course,he'll stretch it out,to much comfort at Bute House!
370

Rufus-T-Firefly,

29/01/2009 16:54:27
4 Curley Bill,the southwest 27/01/2009 00:35:13
What a nonsense this article is. The Budget passing is a done deal, mainly because Gray's gormless gombeen men (and wimmin) are too scared of the alternative. They know - according to internal polls that have been done - that they are facing decimation at the next election if things continue as is.
(Thanks go to Councillor James Kelly, Lab., of the Ballochmyle Ward for providing this information.)
=====================================================

Mystic Meg Curley Bill.
371

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 16:56:25
413 Interesting. Purcell flying solo again. Giving an ultimatum - to Labour. Hmmm.
372

Rufus-T-Firefly,

29/01/2009 16:56:38
16 Donnie Murdo,Western Isles 27/01/2009 08:54:47
No chance will they vote the budget down. They know fine they'd lose an extra £2bn of funding (by refusing this budget, they have to accept last years).
===================================================

Donnie Murdo can see into the future.
373

Observer,,

29/01/2009 16:57:45
415/416 nearly made simultaneous post - but hey fastest finger prize is awarded.
374

Miss H,

29/01/2009 16:59:59
419, 420 Neither of you has a clue what this is even about.

The parliamentary leader of the Labour Party has shot himself not just in the foot but in the head.
375

Rufus-T-Firefly,

29/01/2009 17:00:36
193 Observer,,Glasgow 27/01/2009 17:05:36
The budget will pass for the simple reason that Labour don't have a better budget to put in it's place - the same as last year.
=====================================================

Observer the fortune teller.
376

Stan Butler,

29/01/2009 17:01:57

Was is Fat N'Eck Salmond or Swinney who was to blame for the budget debacle?

I reckon it was Fat N'Eck.

After the drubbing he got at Glenrothes you have to wonder how long it will be before the men in grey kilts have a word with him.
377

Rufus-T-Firefly,

29/01/2009 17:07:19
Compare all of the above ill-informed predictions with my one from Tuesday.
=================================================
192 Rufus-T-Firefly,27/01/2009 16:57:20

The budget will fall at the first hurdle. There is no way the Greens will accept the ridiculous, insulting offer that John Swinney has made to them.
378

British flag,

29/01/2009 17:07:25
The bulk of the Scottish Parliament’s revenue comes in a block grant from Westminster under the Barnett Formula,this however is outdated and needs reform. If Scotland had it's own tax raising powers it would not only stop them whinging to westminster but would free up 30 billion pounds for the people of England.

If any Scottish Government wants to give freebies awaym they should raise the money themselves and not rely on the English tax payer.
379

Observer,,

Glasgow 29/01/2009 17:07:25
423 Yes.
380

TWC,

29/01/2009 17:07:53
I tell you wh