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SNP all smiles as they secure near-unanimous Budget backing, just 7 days after plans thrown out

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Published Date: 05 February 2009
A DELIGHTED Alex Salmond got his battered Budget through the Scottish Parliament yesterday, securing the support of all his opponents except the Greens – who appeared to have been punished for scuppering the plans last week.
SNP ministers celebrated last night after the Budget was approved by every MSP in the chamber except the two Greens, who voted against it as they had done the week before.

The 123-2 margin of victory came as no surprise as Labour and the Liberal Democrats had said they would back the Budget in return for a series of new concessions.

As the Conservatives and Margo MacDonald, the independent MSP, were already on board, only the Greens were left on the outside. However, having got the support to get the Budget through, SNP ministers then appeared to punish Patrick Harvie and Robin Harper, the Green MSPs, for defeating the bill last week, deciding to offer them even less than they had the week before.

The Greens had demanded a free, universal home insulation package of up to £100 million a year. Last week, they were offered £33 million, £22 million of which was to come from Scottish Government funds and £11 million from councils and housing associations.

However, after John Swinney, the finance secretary, secured the support of the Lib Dems and Labour, he lowered this offer, telling the Greens they would only get £15 million of government cash for the insulation scheme and £15 million from councils and housing bodies.

Crucially, he also told the Greens the scheme would not be free and universal, but would be means-tested. As this was a worse offer than he had been given the week before, Mr Harvie, the Greens' co-convener, felt he had no choice but to oppose the Budget.

"It's no surprise to me that the Greens remain the only party standing up for a vision of a sustainable future," he said.

Labour had initially demanded 7,800 new apprentices each year for the next three years. Last week, the party was offered what it wanted, but only for one year, not three. This was not good enough for Labour, so the party voted against the Budget. Yesterday, though, having secured other minor concessions around the edge of this same one-year pledge, Labour decided to back the Budget.

One of the changes was a commitment that the apprentices would remain in training even if their employers went bust.

Mr Swinney found the £16 million to create the apprentice places partly from resources that had been earmarked for the Greens' insulation scheme.

Iain Gray, the Labour leader, insisted that he had not merely accepted the same deal he had rejected the week before.

"If you are asking did we compromise, yes we have compromised, but we believe we have done it in the best interests of Scotland," he said.

Andy Kerr, Labour's finance spokesman, said Mr Swinney had made "important and substantial changes" to the Budget.

He said: "As a result of Labour discussion and Labour negotiation, there will be those extra 7,800 Scots who have the opportunity to take up an apprenticeship."

Mr Swinney said afterwards that he was pleased to have got his Budget through at last.

"Obviously, I am delighted that the government's Budget has had such an emphatic endorsement by the parliament," he said.

The finance secretary said he believed that the Budget was the correct one to help Scotland in the economic downturn. He also confirmed that, last week, the Greens had been offered a home insulation scheme that would have been free and universal, as they had wanted, but this had been changed and turned into a means-tested scheme.

The revised offer was put to them this week – an offer which the Greens then rejected.

But Mr Swinney denied he had decided to "punish" the Greens by changing the offer after they voted down the Budget last week. "It was a recognition of the fact that I needed a broad coalition behind the government's proposals," he said.

"I can only spend the sums of money I've got and I've utilised resources to support the apprenticeship request that the Labour Party made to me.

"And, in that fashion, I've delivered very substantial endorsement of the government's Budget by the support and participation of the Labour Party in the vote tonight."

Mr Swinney said the changes to the Budget altered just 0.3 per cent of his original spending plan.

He insisted that the week-long wrangle following last week's debate had not damaged the parliament's reputation.

"What parliament has done is demonstrate that it can confront difficulties and it can resolve them swiftly and effectively," he said.

The Lib Dems had originally demanded a 2p cut in income tax, but voted with the government after it made a number of concessions to them.

These will see the SNP administration make a submission to the Calman Commission – the Westminster-backed body examining devolution – to argue the case for Holyrood to have borrowing powers.

That is hardly much of a problem for Mr Salmond, who has already spoken of his desire to secure borrowing powers, but this will be portrayed by the Liberal Democrats as a key change because it will force the SNP to engage more closely with the commission.

Other concessions to the Lib Dems include a jobs taskforce for Scotland's struggling financial sector, the creation of a cross-party body to study public spending, and a commitment to commission school projects this year along with the promise of future funds to support them.

Annabel Goldie, the Scottish Conservative leader, said: "Our total gains of nearly a £250,000 have made this a Budget for the high street, which will help Scotland to weather the worst of Labour's recession and address some of the key issues in Scotland today.

"That is why we voted for the Budget last week, and this week; not for us the petty posturing of Labour and the Lib Dems."

What lies behind Lib Dem leader's decision to cave in to Swinney's plans?

JOHN Swinney was the model of contrition last week. He had failed to get the Budget passed by parliament, for the first time in its history.

Seven days later and not only has the finance secretary got the Budget through, he has also done it with the almost unanimous support of the parliament – except the Greens.

Most importantly, Mr Swinney has managed to get pretty much the same Budget passed this week as was defeated last, without having to find more government money to meet opposition demands.

How did he do it? First, he had luck on his side. No-one knew last week that the Liberal Democrats would cave in so spectacularly, ditch their commitment to an income tax cut and agree to support the Budget for no new money at all. Having the Lib Dems on board suddenly made everything easy. Mr Swinney had the votes he needed so he could afford to barter with Labour and the Greens.

He really wanted Labour support; to present the sort of consensual approach he was so keen to show, but also to get the maximum support for his plans. But, on the other side of the equation was the Scottish Green Party's MSPs, Robin Harper and Patrick Harvie. Mr Swinney did everything he could to get them on board last week and they still ended up voting against the Budget and bringing it down.

Having got the Lib Dems on board, he did not feel the need, or the desire, to compromise again with the two MSPs who had caused him so much anguish the week before. So he cut the offer on the table to the Greens, offering the money to Labour instead for its apprenticeships plan.

The result was unexpected. Labour and the Lib Dems voted in favour (along with the independent MSP Margo MacDonald and the Conservatives) and the Greens – feeling snubbed and politically bruised – voted against. Mr Swinney got his own back, but will it backfire? Will the Greens vote against the SNP government on a more regular basis?

Mr Harvie, the co-leader, refused to talk about this yesterday, but a full breakdown of relations between the Greens and the SNP is a real possibility.

The Tories emerged with key concessions of a town-centre regeneration fund and outdoor education; Labour got its apprenticeship scheme – at least for one year – Ms MacDonald got a rolling pot of money for Edinburgh and more for affordable housing, but what about the Lib Dems?

The party suffered general derision over its decision to ditch its policy of cutting income tax by 2p in the pound, then falling over itself to do a deal with the SNP. "They haven't been bought off," said one MSP, "because their support is not actually costing any money."

"Sold out for a second-class stamp," was the verdict of another – a reference to the Lib Dems' key demand that Alex Salmond write to the Calman Commission and ask that it back borrowing powers for the Scottish Government.

There was a half-serious suggestion in the press corridor this week that Tavish Scott, the Lib Dem leader, be presented with a box of Sugar Puffs at his press conference announcing his support for the SNP Budget.

This was a reminder of a comment made by one radio pundit who said that asking Mr Salmond to back borrowing powers was like asking the Honey Monster if he wanted more Sugar Puffs. So why did they do it? Why did Mr Scott move so quickly to ditch a policy he had stood by so defiantly for several months?

The first point that emerged from the Lib Dem group yesterday was that this was Mr Scott's decision. He really did lead from the front on this one.

Mr Scott decided, as soon as the Budget fell last week, that the Lib Dems could get themselves back in the game and get something out of it, and he persuaded his parliamentary group to back him.

"Tavish got a fairly easy ride on this," said one Lib Dem MSP. yesterday. "He explained the situation and, after discussion, he was given the backing to do it."

Another MSP suggested that, while there had been initial unease among some MSPs, they had all come round to Mr Scott's view pretty quickly – even though it meant that the party would be pilloried for ditching its principles.

Having decided to renegotiate with the SNP, there was then the difficult question of what the Lib Dems would ask for. Other parties demanded specific budgetary proposals, but the Lib Dems did not do that. Instead, they asked for the First Minister's submission to the Calman Commission, a financial services task force for jobs and a new approach to spending decisions in the future, involving all the parties.

A Lib Dem source said this was a deliberate decision, because the party had just come from a position of demanding massive public-sector cuts to pay for an income tax cut.

"We couldn't go from public-sector cuts to demanding that public money be spent on specific projects; we would have been crucified," said the source.

The Lib Dems got their deal, the SNP got the votes it needed to get the Budget through, and that was that.

Or was it? There were suggestions at Holyrood last night that this might be the start of a "Lib Dem-SNP love-in", and that the Liberals might be prepared to help the Scottish Government more in the future, certainly on local income tax and possibly on other matters.

This would help the Lib Dems ease themselves away from Labour's shadow and give the SNP an alternative to relying on the Greens to get legislation through.

Was this the underlying reason behind Mr Scott's opportunism? Only time will tell.

Is it the start of a wonderful relationship between Tavish and Alex?

JOHN Swinney was the model of contrition last week. He had failed to get the Budget passed by parliament, for the first time in its history.

Seven days later and not only has the finance secretary got the Budget through, he has also done it with the almost unanimous support of the parliament – except the Greens.

Most importantly, Mr Swinney has managed to get pretty much the same Budget passed this week as was defeated last, without having to find more government money to meet opposition demands.

How did he do it? First, he had luck on his side. No-one knew last week that the Liberal Democrats would cave in so spectacularly, ditch their commitment to an income tax cut and agree to support the Budget for no new money at all. Having the Lib Dems on board suddenly made everything easy. Mr Swinney had the votes he needed so he could afford to barter with Labour and the Greens.

He really wanted Labour support; to present the sort of consensual approach he was so keen to show, but also to get the maximum support for his plans. But, on the other side of the equation was the Scottish Green Party's MSPs, Robin Harper and Patrick Harvie. Mr Swinney did everything he could to get them on board last week and they still ended up voting against the Budget and bringing it down.

Having got the Lib Dems on board, he did not feel the need, or the desire, to compromise again with the two MSPs who had caused him so much anguish the week before. So he cut the offer on the table to the Greens, offering the money to Labour instead for its apprenticeships plan.

The result was unexpected. Labour and the Lib Dems voted in favour (along with the independent MSP Margo MacDonald and the Conservatives) and the Greens – feeling snubbed and politically bruised – voted against. Mr Swinney got his own back, but will it backfire? Will the Greens vote against the SNP government on a more regular basis?

Mr Harvie, the co-leader, refused to talk about this yesterday, but a full breakdown of relations between the Greens and the SNP is a real possibility.

The Tories emerged with key concessions of a town-centre regeneration fund and outdoor education; Labour got its apprenticeship scheme – at least for one year – Ms MacDonald got a rolling pot of money for Edinburgh and more for affordable housing, but what about the Lib Dems?

The party suffered general derision over its decision to ditch its policy of cutting income tax by 2p in the pound, then falling over itself to do a deal with the SNP. "They haven't been bought off," said one MSP, "because their support is not actually costing any money."

"Sold out for a second-class stamp," was the verdict of another – a reference to the Lib Dems' key demand that Alex Salmond write to the Calman Commission and ask that it back borrowing powers for the Scottish Government.

There was a half-serious suggestion in the press corridor this week that Tavish Scott, the Lib Dem leader, be presented with a box of Sugar Puffs at his press conference announcing his support for the SNP Budget.

This was a reminder of a comment made by one radio pundit who said that asking Mr Salmond to back borrowing powers was like asking the Honey Monster if he wanted more Sugar Puffs. So why did they do it? Why did Mr Scott move so quickly to ditch a policy he had stood by so defiantly for several months?

The first point that emerged from the Lib Dem group yesterday was that this was Mr Scott's decision. He really did lead from the front on this one.

Mr Scott decided, as soon as the Budget fell last week, that the Lib Dems could get themselves back in the game and get something out of it, and he persuaded his parliamentary group to back him.

"Tavish got a fairly easy ride on this," said one Lib Dem MSP. yesterday. "He explained the situation and, after discussion, he was given the backing to do it."

Another MSP suggested that, while there had been initial unease among some MSPs, they had all come round to Mr Scott's view pretty quickly – even though it meant that the party would be pilloried for ditching its principles.

Having decided to renegotiate with the SNP, there was then the difficult question of what the Lib Dems would ask for. Other parties demanded specific budgetary proposals, but the Lib Dems did not do that. Instead, they asked for the First Minister's submission to the Calman Commission, a financial services task force for jobs and a new approach to spending decisions in the future, involving all the parties.

A Lib Dem source said this was a deliberate decision, because the party had just come from a position of demanding massive public-sector cuts to pay for an income tax cut.

"We couldn't go from public-sector cuts to demanding that public money be spent on specific projects; we would have been crucified," said the source.

The Lib Dems got their deal, the SNP got the votes it needed to get the Budget through, and that was that.

Or was it? There were suggestions at Holyrood last night that this might be the start of a "Lib Dem-SNP love-in", and that the Liberals might be prepared to help the Scottish Government more in the future, certainly on local income tax and possibly on other matters.

This would help the Lib Dems ease themselves away from Labour's shadow and give the SNP an alternative to relying on the Greens to get legislation through.

Was this the underlying reason behind Mr Scott's opportunism?

Only time will tell.

Related articles

Hamish MacDonell: Was there a darker reason for Lib Dems' U-turn
on tax?


A step back from the brink – for good, as budget system reformed

Leader: Public won't stand for another Budget pantomime

Click here to read analysis of the budget debacle in The Steamie




Page 1 of 1

 
1

Dark Lochnagar,

Symington 05/02/2009 01:06:16
The whole process has been a triumph for the SNP and to lesser degrees the Tories and the Parliament. The Labour and Lib Dems look totally stupid having voted for less that they were offered last week. The Tories made an agreement and stuck to it. Parliament showed that even although it is a young institution, it can vote ultimately for the people of Scotland. Can you see the same vote at Westminster?
2

Forward not Back,

05/02/2009 01:13:51
#1 - It also shows that there is no need for coalition government in Scotland as well, making the Lib Dumbs in particular an irrelevance.
3

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 05/02/2009 01:46:43
I watched this charade on TV to-day and to see all those MSPs applauding was like watching a chimps tea party.
4

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 05/02/2009 02:59:12
The greens failed to understand that their representation in this parliament is proportional - they asked for disproportional concessions and got what could be expected.

I think this is a small turning point - the lib dums are slowly working out that it's better to be shaping things from the inside in a defacto coalition and labour are maybe slowly working out that their crass and politically motivated objections to everything the SNP are doing are beginning to hack people off. 20 months to accept that the SNP are the government! - and we call the libs dum!
5

TheScotsman,

Scottish Borders 05/02/2009 03:06:25
The Greens have shot themselves in the foot big time.
Clown Swinney could easily have been persuaded to part with £33 million with no strings last week had they used a little cunning and persuasion. Now their worthy programme of home insulation for every home in Scotland is going to be a means tested pipe dream.

"One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors."
Plato
Greek author & philosopher in Athens (427 BC - 347 BC)
6

buckfastdreamland,

05/02/2009 03:08:29

A beans-filled performance from Alex. I take my hat off to the man. He obviously knows the importance of a good diet and preparation and the beans certainly came to the fore. Well done that man.
7

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 05/02/2009 03:15:22
Just on a seperate note a current affairs analysis program on Aussie telly last was holding up Britain as an example of a western economy in a VERY bad way to weather the financial crisis.

The thrust of the article was that Brown and Co had overseen a massive regulatory failure and were acting a blinkered fashion even now.

Funny how you have to go to the other side of the world to get a neutral, and truthful analysis of the state of play in the UK. It is obvious to me that it will be a long time before such objectivity can be seen in Britain. So much of the media, esp in Scotland, have bought into the deceipt, failing to dig and question and have therefore become complicit with the failings of Labour. They don't want to destroy any shred of (self perceived) credbility that they may have left by changing their tune now.

It will be interesting to see how history views this episode, a disastorous failure of accountable and responsible government driven by ego and misplaced self belief and importance, all aided and abetted by a media intent on dumbing itself down through a mixture of laziness and self interest. Brown will not be forgetton by history as people are going to be paying for his mistakes for decades.

Nice legacy Gordon.
8

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 05/02/2009 03:18:30
#7 I do have to agree that the greens initiave was reasonable and the sums of money involved all seem so piddling compared to what Brown pi$$e$ up against the wall on a daily basis. Plato was right - you have to be in it to win it
9

Julian.,

edinburgh 05/02/2009 03:50:50
#1 Did you actually read the article?

"So he cut the offer on the table to the Greens, offering the money to Labour instead for its apprenticeships plan."

Labour got more than they were offered last week, not less.
10

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

05/02/2009 04:27:17
If the Greens vote against the government more often it will be a case of cutting off their noses to spite their faces.
The lesson for them today was simply not to push it. The deal they got offered last week was fantastic for the fact that there are only two of them.
Of course the government will continue to have to deal with them and make deals, but today was a marker that they shouldn't get too cocky.
11

Angleland Isover,

05/02/2009 06:38:01
How much longer will the lib-labs think they are still a force in Scottish politics. Surely they cant take much more humiliation. Alas so long as the scottish unionists are blinded to reality they will have a reason to hang in there.
12

The Tin Man,

05/02/2009 07:15:55
#16 Angleland

You are rather badly informed. There are two pro-independence party's at Holyrood. The second one got sidelined by the SNP in favour of Labour, and voted against the budget, twice.
13

Macuistean,

Isle of Tiree 05/02/2009 07:18:20
13 20th Century Boy

I get more truthful information from the comments than I get from the article itself. I can't understand why the Scottish media continually turn a blind eye to some of the activities of the Labour party but through the comments the truth usually comes out. I stopped buying The Scotsman, Scotland on Sunday, The Herald and Sunday Herald many months ago and have not entered The Herald or Sunday Herald on line since they restricted comments. As for the BBC, I am forced into paying for a "service" I do not want.
14

Useful Idiot,

Glasgow 05/02/2009 07:23:03
@11 Julian

Did you actually read the article? Labour got exactly the same as they voted against the week before. Gray has been humiliated.
15

Montford's Jaicket,

Hanging Around 05/02/2009 07:50:23
"I can only spend the sums of money I've got" said Mr. Swinney.

Altogether now - "Are you listening, Are you listening, Are you listening, Gordon Brown?..."

Well done the SNP for having the nous to get the other parties (give or take a green or two) onside - and well done also those parties who said "nay" last week and who seem to have recognised, at long last in some cases, that the way forward for this parliament is to look for consensus, not conflict. Welcome to the world of the grown-ups, guys!
16

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 05/02/2009 07:57:29
How on Earth are the Greens going to operate a damage limitation exercise after this?

Even the lie-bour party folded and went cap in hand.

Honest to goodness, what a pair of incompetant fokkers.
17

The Tin Man,

05/02/2009 08:25:55
#25 Central

I believe that a lot of it goes to Grangemouth, with a fair bit going to Sullom Voe, as well.
18

Astonished,

Inverclyde 05/02/2009 08:30:18
Utter humiliation for labour - they gained nothing by their idiotic posturing.

Sadly Central Scrutinizer is right :-

"The unfettered subjugation of Scotland continues..."

It is up to everyone to stop Westminster's misrule of our country.I am astonished and delighted that everyone is waking up to that fact.
19

TWC,

05/02/2009 08:51:02
28 fresian,edinburgh
Certainly better tha Westminster, perhaps the Tories, Libdems, Nats and Margo can actually hold this together and go after some real improvements for Scotland. I don't think Labour are ready to break free of Westminster control yet, but I think they will eventually.
20

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 05/02/2009 08:52:51
If the Greens had got their way we would be insulating all the £1,000,000 houses, private castles, hunting lodges, etc in Scotland for free, along with a few small houses which have not yet been insulated.
John Swinney was good enough to give them use of a civil servant several months ago but even with government help the have been unable to put a financial case together.
21

Nebulous,

Aberdeen 05/02/2009 08:54:35
I've never understood the Lib-Dems attitude to the SNP. The Liberals were in favour of home rule a long time ago. They claim to be a Federalist party. Yet they out-do the arch-Unionists. I think they have let spite and personal animosity blinker them. Surprisingly enough Mike Rumbles spoke more sense than anyone during the leadership campaign - yet they went with the only Unionist in the party who was more virulent than Nicol Stephen.
22

Useful Idiot,

Glasgow 05/02/2009 08:55:51
I find Patrick Harvie's actions mystifying. Either (a) he threw his toys out of the pram and let his temper cloud his judgement; or (b) he was under pressure from his party to hold out for more.

Either way, the Greens in their present form are for the moment a busted flush. They had a good hand and played it badly.
23

Phil C,

05/02/2009 08:57:39
Nobody comes out of this smelling of roses....but Labour come out of it reeking of the smelliest of smelly jobbies imaginable. Will Labour voters notice? Don't hold your breath, just your nose!
24

ecosseman,

facts not propaganda 05/02/2009 08:59:24
did you watch colonel blink on newsnight last night,what a load of mince.8000 jobs 8000jobs 8000jobs 8000 jobs 8000jobs 8000jobs 8000jobs 8000jobs 8000jobs
but i must admit,he is doing a great job for alex and john.so on second thoughts colonel blink keep talking mince.
25

,

05/02/2009 09:10:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
26

A Crofter,

Western Isles 05/02/2009 09:11:56
123 Trumnplickers - working together for a browner Scotland.
27

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 09:12:32
Verdict:

SNP - a resounding victory that should bolster them. Salmond once again displayed masterful tactics. Whether it was all good judgment or luck or both, he has opened up a bigger gap between himself and the other party leaders.

Tories - won more concessions than anyone else. Showed strong leadership and came out of the process stronger.

Libdems - Tavish showed some leadership (belatedly) and some common sense. Relatively undamaged.

Iain Gray - Severely damaged by making a pig's ear of voting in two successive budgets. Looked petty and small-minded, with a very limited grasp of tactics. Gives the impression that the whole Labour group have little to offer. Demonstrated that Labour have a paucity of real talent.

Patrick Harvie - What can you say about Patrick? Messed up last week in mis-judging the mood in Parliament and the country. Walked into the same trap yesterday. Emotions ruled and he has fatally under-mined his reputation, probably irreversibly.
28

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 05/02/2009 09:15:38
The budget has to be passed - any adult knows that but the SNP on 30 something % hasn't got a prayer getting independence through so it might as well resign. What point is there to it?
29

The Tin Man,

05/02/2009 09:17:16
#37 connaughtboy

The exec worked with the Conservatives, took the Greens for granted, ignored Labour and the Lib Dems, and were given a resounding kick-up-the-backside. At least they seem to have woken-up for the time being.
30

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 09:21:30
11 Julian

I think you should take that with a pinch of salt. I'm not convinced that Labour have won any more money than they were offered last week, despite what the article says. Beware political spin and the Scotsman's view of reality.
31

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 09:24:18
39 tin

The only parties that I saw getting a kich up the backside were Labout and the Libdems. As for the Greens, they got what they were demanding, but instead of accepting gratefully, they chose to commit political suicide.

The two parties that enhanced their reputations for putting Scotland before party politics were the SNP and the Tories.
32

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 05/02/2009 09:24:51
Has anybody thought of the consequences for the SNP in future close votes ?
In the past they have had to rely on the Greens to get legislation through but obviously never again.
The Greens are now in an even greater position of power, or are they ?
We wonder if the most significant agreement between the parties is the unspoken one that never again will they allow the Greens to control the Parliament. It would only need a couple of opposition MSPs to be "delayed" on their way to the vote to neutralise the Greens.
33

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 09:31:11
38 What do you mean by "getting independence through"?

Do you mean getting parliamentary agreement to hold the referendum?
34

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2009 09:32:27
I really don't understand the crowing from the SNP support on this - except that I understand that you would pretty much crow about anything without troubling your brains with understanding what any of it actually means.

My greatest respect goes to the Greens here. They knew they were being taken for granted, and bullied, by the SNP, who thought they could fob them off with a wave of the hand. They were right to stand up to them last week, and that gave the SNP a bloody nose.

The SNP ate humble pie and went around trying to secure unanimous support for their plans - briefing heavily that they would achieve it. But having dealt with the big boys they again took the Greens for granted. The Greens could have capitulated and voted for the budget this time, knowing a vote against would make no difference, but they would have been a laughing stock, voting for something that gave them less than what they voted against. So they were absolutely right to oppose this, and have thereby ensured that the SNP's confident bluster about unanimity is punctured.

Neither Labour nor the Lib Dems had any prospect of looking good out of this, because they effectively had to reverse their decisions without receiving a significant change. Both secured very minor concessions in order to be able to point to differences that could reverse their votes, but in reality they were never in a position to come out of this looking good.

The SNP emerge worst of all here. They have shown themselves to be bullies, and they have yet again demonstrated their arrogance. But more importantly they have lost credibility, with their empty threats of resignation and talk of "going to the country" - a threat they simply weren't in a position to make. They had to back down, and they had to create a consensus, because they actually had no other option.

The real winners here, as others have said, are the Tories, who have shown sure-footedness throughout, can point to a key policy item win, and have no
35

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2009 09:33:36
[cont]
and have not had to back down on any front, nor justify any back-room dealings to their supporters. Much as it pains me to say it, Goldie has yet again come up trumps.
36

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 09:34:15
44 Duncan.

Have you ever thought about a new career in writing fiction. you'd be good at it ! Lot's of imagination is a pre-requisite!
37

Ewan Randall,

05/02/2009 09:45:09
(#1) – (Dark Lochnagar) – Has the whole process actually been a triumph for the SNP?

Do Labour and the LibDems actually look stupid after receiving any concessions as an opposition party?

(#2) – (Forward not Back) – Am I right in thinking that it took a coalition of parties to pass this budget?

(#6) – (Dougie Douglas) – “The greens failed to understand that their representation in this parliament is proportional - they asked for disproportional concessions and got what could be expected” Is the SNP now saying the position Scotland holds within the UK is fine?

(#12) – (Newton_Invented_Gravity) – Might some say that this SNP have treated the Greens here exactly how they accuse the Westminster government of treating Scotland, and it doesn’t bode well for areas of Scotland of minority interests after independence?

(#15) – (20th Century boy) – Comparatively speaking which is a worse and so inferior position, governing a country as a majority government, or governing a country as a minority government?

(#16) – (Angleland Isover) – Will the LibDems and Labour not still believe they are a force in Scottish politics while enough people still vote for them?


(#18) – (Macuistean) – Do you class truthful information only as that which you want to hear?

(#22) – (Rulesbutnotrulers) – Should the greens off expected that an agreement might be broken?

Might some say that the way the Scottish government have treated the Greens is reminiscent of a small child who throws a tantrum after not getting their own way?
38

JulesF,

Kirkliston 05/02/2009 09:46:49
Someone's not in bed !

Don't worry Iggle Piggles, there's always next year !
39

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 09:46:50
44 Duncan

The Herald seems to disagree with your bizarre analysis.

http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/news/display.var.2487039.0.Errors_of_judgment_scupper_opposition.php
40

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 05/02/2009 09:49:44
#43 The bill won't get passed in Holyrood and even if it did the SNP won't get far with 30 something percent of the population voting for it. That's it. Game over for another generation. Independence is a dead issue and really the SNP should just dissolve itself.
41

Duncan in Edinburgh,

Edinburgh 05/02/2009 09:53:15
#49 Yes. I suppose the best thing for me to do, then, would be to post a series of comments on every Dinwoodie article from now on, accusing him of being an SNP stooge who is in the pay of the Scottish Government. Even better, I could come up with an amusing play on the SNP's name, like the Silly Numpty Party, to remind everyone how stupid I think they are at all times.

I am well aware that people disagree with me, Connaughtboy. I don't need you to point it out. But I'll stick to arguing the political points, I think, rather than trying to prove myself right by reference to what other people think.
42

Grahamski,

Falkirk 05/02/2009 09:59:49
Perhaps the supporters of the SNP could tell us what is so wonderful about setting a tory budget,as Mr McLetchie quite correctly pointed out :"The Next best thing to a Tory Government - is a Government which does what the Tories tell it to."
Standing up for Scotland? aye, right ......
43

Rob me blind,

Peterhead 05/02/2009 10:03:01
Well this just proves the point that none of those lot in Holyrood have any morals at all they will sell their soul rather than stand up for what they believe is right,

The SNP throws the teddy across the room every time they don’t get their own way.

The Tory’s cower in the corner until the are told the can join in.

Labour sell their souls for something that was going to happen anyway but try to make it look like they have won something.

Only the Greens have some semblance of a backbone and they have to sit on the naughty step until they too tow the line.

We might as well save the country money , close the place down turn it into a Tesco and just have Gordon Clown run the shambles from London. At least the money saved would go some way to help paying for the mal-administration we have seen since the inception of the farce that is the Scottish Parliament.
44

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 05/02/2009 10:04:19
#37 connaughtboy

I agree completely with your verdict. We must also give credit to John Swinney for putting it all together - what a star. Labour look ver silly today, but the booby prize must surely go to the greens. Only one word needed to describe Messrs Harvie and Harper:

amatuers
45

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 05/02/2009 10:07:24
#52 Grahamski
“Perhaps the supporters of the SNP could tell us what is so wonderful about setting a tory budget”

Why don’t you address that question to the Labour Party, who I’ll think you will find also supported the budget?
46

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 10:08:44
50 I think the bill will get passed in Holyrood. I think the other parties, particularly the Libdems, will tow the line.

When it goes to the people, you can be sure that those voting in favour will be greater than the percentage of SNP supporters. The question is, by how many?
47

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 05/02/2009 10:10:12
The greens have no more backbone than anyone else - they just don't know how to do politics. When 90% of the population supports a budget, you don't keep acting like a little spoiled brat. If Patrick Harvie cannot understand that, then he should have joined Friends of the Earth - leave the politics to the big boys.

I don't happen to think that using taxpayers money to insulate some tight-a'rsed Duke's castle will save the planet. What's wrong with some means testing?
48

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 05/02/2009 10:12:48
So, just as Thomas predicted last week, Salmond played his hand brilliantly, Puddin' Grey blinked first, Tavish wet himself and, when the music stopped, that sanctimonious little prig Harvie and his chum, Paddington Harper were the only ones left without a seat. "Never mind, Patrick - have a marmalade sandwich", said Robin. "The bread's organic and the marmalade's fairtade. And I'm sure they don't ALL hate you for being so self-righteous" !!

49

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 10:12:54
51 Duncan

Everyone would breathe a sigh of relief if you did start arguing the political points instead of posting the petulant nonsense that you have so far.

Most people would agree that the SNP and Swinney have won this particular battle.
50

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2009 10:14:02
#55 Priceless.
51

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 10:15:13
52 Laughable.
52

Grahamski,

Falkirk 05/02/2009 10:15:48
56
'Why don’t you address that question to the Labour Party,'
The SNP set the budget after being told what to do by the tories, why would I take it up with Labour?
Oh, and the SNP stock response when they've been caught out? Blame Labour.....plus ca change!
53

Jimmy Le Pie,

05/02/2009 10:17:16
I've got to laugh at all the unionists moaning about government by consensus.

Bet you all agree with Comrade Broon when he suggests a 'government of national unity' to deal with what is 'clearly an international global depression'


Keep up the excellent work Alex & the SNP.

The ONLY party who put the interests of ALL the people of Scotland first
54

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 10:17:54
62 Dunc

Priceless AND true......
55

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2009 10:19:15
#61 That appears to be the sum of your argument - look at all the people who agree with me. Pathetic, old chum, and certainly no basis for you to criticise me for not debating. Just review your responses to my full post at #44. You tell me I should write a novel, because I'm making stuff up; you tell me someone else disagrees with me, calling my position "bizarre" without any attempt at justification; and then you call me petulant, reassert your view, and again back it up by claiming that "most people" agree with you.

Political debate? You wouldn't recognise it if it hit you in the face!
56

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 10:19:56
64 Graham

You are setting yourself up to be knocked down. Are you sure you want to pursue this idea that the SNP budget was in fact a Tory one?

That argument is so easy to dismantle.
57

pehman,

sussex 05/02/2009 10:20:47

The budget;-

Now approved, the Scottish Budget will deliver: -

- Help for households to beat the credit crunch, providing extra funding for councils to freeze the Council Tax for another year.

- Another cut in the cost of single prescriptions from April, down from £5 to £4... with 12-month pre-payment certificates cut by £10 to £38.

- Business rates for 120,000 small businesses will be abolished, helping shops and local firms cut costs and protect jobs in these tough times.

- £230 million of accelerated infrastructure spending to keep the Scottish economy moving and support 4,700 jobs.
- Extra funds to help train 1,000 additional police officers, to put more bobbies on the beat and improve safety on our streets.

- £15 million to help provide home insulation for 90,000 homes - targeted on those most in need.
- £16 million to recruit 18,500 new apprentices.
PLUS: -
- £300 million more for the NHS.
- £70 million more to invest in affordable housing.
- £60 million more for town centre renewal.
- £40 million more in funding for free personal care for the elderly.

- A total of £1.8 billion in additional expenditure - securing a total of 35,000 jobs!

All in a days work, well done SNP
58

The Tin Man,

05/02/2009 10:23:59
#65 Jimmy

I think that one of the more interesting things to come out of the budget fiasco was the fact that the exec had several months to arrive at a consensus, and failed (I know you blame any other party except the Tories for that, but the can lands with the exec).

Either they learn from that, or face the fact that none of their flagship policies get through Holyrood. We shall see.
59

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 10:24:55
67 Dunc

It's hard to take seriously someone who says the following:

"The SNP ate humble pie and went around trying to secure unanimous support for their plans - briefing heavily that they would achieve it"

It is obvious that the opposition parties, the Libdems particularly, panicked when they realised that the country would blame them for the budget debacle. From that point onwards, Swinney/Salmond had them lining up to come on board.

The only thing I can agree with you on is that The Tories came out of it well (as I admitted in my post @37)
60

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 05/02/2009 10:25:10
#42 The Greens have become irrelivant. I think that the SNP and LibDems are up to something - expect some realignment as Tavish Scott finally realises that working with the goverment (and making some distance from the Labour party) may actually save his party from extinction. Alex Salmond would not have let the Greens go, if he thought he may need them again. He has probably now decided that they are completely unreliable and it would be far better to improve relationships with the LibDems. Calman will be an interesting test of this new affair. Enjoy the show.
61

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2009 10:26:15
#65 Not seen anyone moaning about government by consensus.

Being knocked back on an arrogant budget, forced to think again by dint of wielding a bigger sword than your votes enable, is not government by consensus - it's the continuing tale of a minority government which thinks it won a landslide, and can't understand why it can't always get its own way.

Government by consensus would look very different to this.
62

Doh,

05/02/2009 10:26:35
"That is why we voted for the Budget last week, and this week; not for us the petty posturing of Labour and the Lib Dems."

said Unnable Godly making a petty point.
63

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 10:27:01
69 pehman

All of which Graham @64 seems to think is Tory policy.

Unbelievable !!
64

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 05/02/2009 10:27:40
#57 Well, the SNP has lost my whole family and judging by talking to them, all my neighbours too. It will be an uphill struggle and will 50% of the vote (unlikely) + 1 vote be enough of a mandate?
65

Rufus-T-Firefly,

05/02/2009 10:28:48
59 Rab The Ranter™,05/02/2009 10:12:21
I get plshed aff wae the BBC tae, but IT IS the best television station that I have seen, and I have seen a wheen.
================================================

Dear oh Dear
66

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 10:28:49
70 tinman

Have you not heard yet? The budget was passed yesterday. Do keep up !
67

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 10:29:31
76 Sorry mate. I think you are telling porkies.
68

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2009 10:29:41
#71 Oh, I don't think the problem is whether you take me seriously or not.

I don't think "the country" was blaming the Lib Dems or Labour for the budget "debacle". It was forged and wielded by the SNP, and most of the people I spoke to about it placed the blame squarely with their arrogance. If the SNP was so sure that the blame lay with those two parties why did they engage immediately in talks with them, offering concessions? Did they want to help them out?

Your position doesn't add up.
69

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 05/02/2009 10:29:56
I am disappointed in the Greens, They may have stood their ground but their petty attitude has damaged the Green cause in Scotland. In future I imagine the green party will disappear in Scotland to be replaced by more environmentally unfriendly politics.
70

Free by 2093,

05/02/2009 10:31:53
I'll admit it the SNP have done something right for a change.

The SNP budget was wrong for Scotland, but fair play to them, they listened and accepted their ideas are stupid and brought on board some proper politicians to make the necessary changes.

I don't see this SNP failure in terms of weakness, the hardest thing to do sometimes is admit you own incompetance and ask for help. The SNP did both in this budget and well done to them.

I hope the SNP start doing this more often, if they only say that they can't get the job done on their own the SNP will always find decent Scots willing to help andcompensate for their stupidity.

Well done to the SNP, that's what I say.
71

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 10:33:55
73 Dunc

Engage your brain before speaking. The budget got through, almost unchanged, with one week's delay.

Far from being "knocked back" it was voted through almost unaminously, and with the added benefit of bringing the Libdems to heel. They may prove useful in future, something I can't say about Labour !
72

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 10:35:57
80 Your beloved Annabel was certainly blaming Labour and the Libdems. Do you disagree with her?
73

The Tin Man,

05/02/2009 10:36:23
#78 connaughtboy

I am sure you are aware that I am refering to budget 'round-1', or did you miss that one? - it was a historical first.

How does this all bode for, say, a vote on holding a referendum? You have the SNP, the Greens, and Margo. Then the exec have to persuade Labour and the Lib Dems to come on-board in order to pass the legislation, and there is no 'round-2'. Have they started consunsus-building yet?
74

Rodster,

Glasgow I am not reall Rodster i am someone else 05/02/2009 10:37:42
Well Duncan if most of the people you talked to ... that would be yourself in the mirror no doubt Duncan.
you are a saddo, Duncy Nae Mates.
No matter how you try to spin it Duncan ,your beloved Labour Party pooped a brick at the thought of an election , so did your bum chums the Labradors sorry liberals .
The ZanuLabour party took the exact same offer as last week , the Libs even less , DANCING TO A NATIONALIST JIG DUNCY BOY , get used to it , this new dance craze is coming to a parliament near you if you live near London .

The SNP and the Scottish Nation will have all those unionist dancing our tune lol as Wendy said "Bring it on!"
75

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 10:38:39
80 Incidently, what concessions are you referring to?
76

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/02/2009 10:41:19
#44 "The SNP emerge worst of all here. They have shown themselves to be bullies, and they have yet again demonstrated their arrogance. But more importantly they have lost credibility, with their empty threats of resignation and talk of "going to the country" - a threat they simply weren't in a position to make."

The SNP emerge worst of all? Please enlighten us with how you square that delusional assertion with last week's Sunday Times poll showing that Alex Salmond's handling of the budget resulted in a large boost to his approval ratings, while the Lib Dems, Labour and Greens all saw their ratings take double-figure dives.

Kindly also outline how you reconcile it with the various polls showing that 90%+ of the electorate supported the SNP's budget.

And for heaven's sake, lay off with the pathetic "Salmond couldn't have called an election" routine. We all know the Parliament rules backwards by now. Indeed the government doesn't get to dictate an election, but had the SNP resigned there was no majority for anyone else to be FM, and so in reality there WOULD have had to be an election. And last week's polls show that the SNP would have won it with an increased majority.

Next time have a wee think before you open your mouth and let your belly rumble.
77

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 10:44:40
85 tinman

Damned from your own mouth:

"the exec had several months to arrive at a consensus, and failed"

I think that getting the consensus of all but 2 MSPs is a resounding success.

Failure would have meant another "no" vote yesterday.

As for the referendum, the opposition parties don't have the back-bone to be so blatantly undemocratic as to stop the people having their say.
78

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/02/2009 10:45:04
#70 "I think that one of the more interesting things to come out of the budget fiasco was the fact that the exec had several months to arrive at a consensus, and failed (I know you blame any other party except the Tories for that, but the can lands with the exec).

Either they learn from that, or face the fact that none of their flagship policies get through Holyrood."


Embarrassing typo, there, Metal Mickey. I think what you meant to say was, "Either they learn from that, or face the fact that it'll take an extra week to get their flagship policies through Holyrood without making any significant changes to them whatsoever."
79

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2009 10:46:30
#83 You are welcome to hold a different view to me, but please stop telling me it's because I'm mentally incapacitated.

#84 I have no love for Annabel. In fact, I once tried to get her disciplined by David Steel for lying to the first Scottish Parliament about calls for the repeal of Section 28 (she stated that no-one had written to her about it, when in fact I knew of 2 letters she had been sent on the subject). She is an old foe, and I have a long memory. However, I recognise when she is doing well.
80

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 10:47:17
90 Rev

Spot on.
81

pehman,

sussex 05/02/2009 10:50:26

65 Jimmy Le Pie,05/02/2009 10:17:16
I've got to laugh at all the unionists moaning about government by consensus.

Bet you all agree with Comrade Broon when he suggests a 'government of national unity' to deal with what is 'clearly an international global depression'

Jimmy Don't laugh to loudly, broons national gov maybe the reason the the lap dogs sided with slab and the greens last week. Remember grey's "how do I table a motion on a vote of confidence"

After the next GE broon might still be in power IF the lap dogs have the strengh to keep him there.

I think last week was just a dry run, but we'll have to wait and see
82

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 05/02/2009 10:51:08
1979 + Tories + SNP = Thatcher.
83

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 10:51:12
91 Dunc

No-one, except you, mentioned being "mentally incapacitated".

I was simply pointing out that you appear to post without thinking things through first. I suspect emotion has a lot to do with it. Simply my observation.
84

The Tin Man,

05/02/2009 10:51:39
#89 connaughtboy

Obviously you did miss budget 'round-1'. Sorry.

In order for a referendum to be held, there has to be a democratic mandate to pass the legislation in Holyrood. All the party's positions are clear, and have not changed since they were elected (with the exception of the Wendy wobble, which was the best chance that a referendum had).

If the Scottish electorate were overwhelmingly in favour of seperation, I am shure they knew who to vote for.
85

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 10:52:30
W U Merchant = 0
86

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2009 10:53:21
#96 A fine example of the type of response I referred to in #51. "ZanuLabour" - deathly satire there. Oh and "Duncy Nae Mates"? What are you, ten years old? Playground politics from a supporter of the playground bully Salmond. He truly does inspire you, doesn't he.
87

The Tin Man,

05/02/2009 10:53:27
#90

But they only get one crack at it Rev. - they don't get 'an extra week'.
88

Scottish 'N British,

05/02/2009 10:53:56
tsk tsk

Once again the SNP contrive to strike the wrong note when it counts.

Swindley's tone to yesterday was parliamentary and mature, consistently seeking "compromise".

Th pic on the front of the Hootsman, and the congratulatory tone evidence yesterday says "hubris, in massive chunks".

After ballsing up last week Swindley needs as many friends as he can get. Will the SNP ever learn?

This vote is through, fireworks lie ahead.

And when they do, Swindley, the grinning jackanape masquerading as the FM and his compliant lackeys, will have no one to blame but themselves....



Oh dear.

I'd have though "relief".

Given his lamentable performance last week
89

Mikey,

05/02/2009 10:54:12
Free by 2093. You are Racist Rufus and I claim my £5!


BTW, Can you tell us just exactly how the budget changed between last week and this? No? Thought not.

Once again, another of Racist Rufus' alter egos spouts a load of garbage. You really are becoming soooo predictable!
90

The Tin Man,

05/02/2009 10:54:38
#98

Alex Salmond is a big fat neep.

There - I am very clever.

The Tin Man
aged 7.
91

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/02/2009 10:56:01
#99 Blimey, you really haven't been paying attention to how politics works, have you?
92

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 10:56:04
96 tinman

Stop flogging a dead horse. The "round 1" argument is tedious and irrelevant.

As for a referendum, I stand by my view. I think the opposition parties will capitulate. Remember that there is evidence to suggest that a rather large majority of the Scottish people would like there to be a referendum, irrespective of whether they support independence or not. My prediction is that the referendum will happen for that reason.
93

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/02/2009 10:56:34
#98 Got any answers to post #88, Duncan love?
94

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2009 10:57:51
#88 Stuart, hi. I see your argument too is essentially "look how many other people agree with me". It's not very persuasive. Mobs are easily whipped up.

And yes, we all know the parliament rules by now. But that didn't stop the SNP threatening to "go to the country" if they didn't get their budget passed, and it didn't stop them looking foolish when they didn't follow through on their threat - not just because they couldn't, but because they didn't have the balls.
95

AJ Fife,

05/02/2009 10:58:51
Good to see Mr Salmond making the Parliament dance to his tune. Alistair Sim, the Scottish Tory leader, and Ian Gray were paticularly vigorous in their wee jig.

The Greens looked a wee bit left oot though :)
96

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 11:00:29
106 Oh dear duncan.

You are letting your heart rule your head again.

Salmond threatened to resign if the budget was rejected for a second time. It wasn't, he didn't. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?
97

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 11:02:02
107 AJF

Gray even worked up a sweat !
98

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/02/2009 11:02:17
#106 "I see your argument too is essentially "look how many other people agree with me". It's not very persuasive."

Slightly awkwardly for you, though, it's how democracy works. The party who the most people agree with wins.

And it doesn't alter my question, which you've dodged - since YOU'RE the one claiming the SNP have come out of this badly, you have to come up with some evidence suggesting that's the case. All the professionally-conducted polls come up with exactly the opposite answer. Do you just mean the SNP have come out of it badly in your house?
99

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/02/2009 11:03:21
#111 "and it didn't stop them looking foolish when they didn't follow through on their threat - not just because they couldn't, but because they didn't have the balls."

Er, they didn't resign because they did get the budget passed.
100

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 05/02/2009 11:03:48
86 Rodster
You appear to be getting carried away in repeating Alex Salmond's statement that that he would like to see Westminster "dance to a Scottish jig" with SNP MPs holding the balance of power in a hung parliament.

How is this going to work? Are the SNP MPs going to vote against the budget with a view to extracting concessions just as the Greens did in Holyrood? One could say that the Greens were trying to make Holyrood "dance to a Green jig". If this kind of tactic was so reprehensible when carried out by the Greens, Labour and Libdems why is it to be celebrated when envisaged by the SNP?
101

Grahamski,

Falkirk 05/02/2009 11:04:33
104
There will not be a referendum next year. Mr Salmond knows that he'll lose and he's already blurted out that he recognises a referendum is a 'once in a generation' event so he will make sure it doesn't happen. The only thing unclear is how he will stop it....sorry, that's just me teasing you, he'll blame England, obviously.
102

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 11:05:30
I think that Earl Grey is vying with Green Patrick for the wooden spoon in this whole affair !
103

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2009 11:06:32
#83 "Engage your brain before speaking."

#88 "Next time have a wee think before you open your mouth and let your belly rumble."

Can I just clarify once more to you gentlemen that this sort of comment adds nothing to a civilised debate, and makes you appear childish. It lends credence to the idea, often discussed, that the simple message of the SNP - "vote for Scotland" - plays better to the simple mind than to the thoughtful voter.
104

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/02/2009 11:06:48
#112 "If this kind of tactic was so reprehensible when carried out by the Greens"

I'm not sure anyone's said it's reprehensible, they've said it was stupid. The Greens were offered what they wanted, but voted No in a huff because Swinney didn't puff up Patrick Harvie's ego enough. As a result, they've ended up with less than they could have got last week, which is inept politics. As one paper's said today - they had a good hand and played it badly. Not reprehensible, just incompetent and self-defeating.
105

Rodster,

GLASGOW 05/02/2009 11:06:56
Talking of Balls Duncy boy got to admire yours , trying to spin this Labour and Liberal cowards climdown as a victory for the unionists and a defeat for our government is commendable but like you, quite pathetic really .
Now remember Duncan when we Nationalists say jump your reply, like that of Gray and Scott to Oor Alex is "HOW HIGH?" ok got that? There's a good lad
106

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/02/2009 11:08:33
#115 "Can I just clarify once more to you gentlemen that this sort of comment adds nothing to a civilised debate"

Nor does you continually avoiding questions. Still waiting to here about #435 on yesterday's Glenrothes thread, and your actual answer to #88 here today.

On the internet you can, of course, just ignore it when people blast enormous great holes in your argument, but that adds nothing to civilised debate, and ends up with people deciding that you're just an idiot troll who deserves only insults, not grown-up consideration.
107

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2009 11:08:43
#110 Stuart, I laid out the reasons in my first post. All you are saying is that you disagree with me. If that's as far as we're going to get, then let's leave it there, because frankly I prefer a debate on the issues rather than on public opinion polls.
108

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2009 11:10:41
#118 You have "blasted" no holes in my argument either today or yesterday, my video-game-reviewing, fakey reverend friend.
109

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 11:13:47
113 graham

You must have missed my point:

"As for a referendum, I stand by my view. I think the opposition parties will capitulate. Remember that there is evidence to suggest that a rather large majority of the Scottish people would like there to be a referendum, irrespective of whether they support independence or not. My prediction is that the referendum will happen for that reason."
110

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2009 11:14:32
#116 The Greens weren't offered what they wanted. They were brushed off with a half-promise involving the diversion of existing funding, rather than new funding. Pats was dead right to stand up this arrogance. It left him with nowhere to go yesterday, but it is refreshing to see a politician of principle rather than a backroom dealer.
111

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/02/2009 11:14:41
#120 See, now that's just insulting abuse, love. There's nothing fake about my title. And I'm afraid I did blow holes in your argument about the SNP coming out of the budget badly, because a whole raft of respected polling organisations have found the EXACT OPPOSITE to be true, in a series of well-publicised voter surveys of tried and tested methodology.

So I'll ask again - by what sources or evidence do you make that assertion? We know why YOU don't like the budget - because you hate the SNP and would still do so even if they gave everyone in Scotland a free castle and a shot on Angelina Jolie. But on what grounds do you claim that they have suffered in the public view?
112

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/02/2009 11:15:30
#120 Oh, and do still feel free to let us know if you've retracted your prejudgement of the Glenrothes investigation. Will it definitely rule out a conspiracy, or not?
113

Rodster,

Glasgow 05/02/2009 11:16:02
#119 You prefer debate Duncan??
Since when?
You never debate!!!
Let me explain Duncy son to debate you need to actually listen to the other side answer the questions ,rebuff the argument , not just talk nonsense ,avoiding direct questions as you do , and relying on semantics to get through.
Now I accept for decades you Unionist mob have had compliant media letting you pontificate without examination or in depth questioning .
Bad news this is new age, the internet age you have to answer questions you can no longer control the message, otherwise you end up looking a total idiot as you do every day on here .
Hence the reason you have to keep changing your monikers so often .
Capiche?

114

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2009 11:16:31
#121 I suspect Grahamski's point is that if Salmond realises he can't win it, he will desperately want to delay it until he thinks he can win it. The views of the public are of little importance to him in this matter - he has a single overriding aim of independence, and all actions are geared towards achieving this aim.
115

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 11:17:18
115 dunc:

"It lends credence to the idea, often discussed, that the simple message of the SNP - "vote for Scotland" - plays better to the simple mind than to the thoughtful voter"

Is that view based upon "look how many other people agree with me". It's not very persuasive, duncan.
116

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 05/02/2009 11:18:55
#76
“Well, the SNP has lost my whole family and judging by talking to them, all my neighbours to”

Would you be the same “Oort Cloud” resident who posted the following pearls of wisdom?

“Ah well, Alex has had a good run at being First Minister - time to let Iain Gray have a go. And on the up side Alex can marry Sean Connery and they can live happily ever after.”

“I for one will vote Libertas or UKIP in this year's EU election and I will never vote yes to the euro”.”

I would suggest that these are somewhat unlikely opinions for someone who claims to have been a SNP supporter to hold.
117

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 11:19:16
126 Duncan

What a strange thing to say:

"The views of the public are of little importance to him in this matter"

I would have thought that the views of the public are the ONLY thing that matters to Salmond in this matter.
118

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/02/2009 11:19:48
#122 The Greens WERE offered what they wanted. Having to reasonably negotiate down from their initial £100m demands, they agreed to accept £33m. They were promised £33m, on the floor of the house in front of the world, by the Finance Secretary, but chose to take a huff instead because they felt they hadn't been treated with enough respect. Harvie himself has admitted that the decision was partly emotional rather than rational, and it's fairly broadly held that the other Green would have voted for the budget had he been left to his conscience.
119

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2009 11:19:50
#123 You are a reverend of a made-up church. Of course it's a fake title.

It is you who equates "coming out of it badly" with "suffering in the public view", not me. I posted my opinion, not the public's.

#124 Even when others tried to explain to you that I had answered that questions several times over yesterday, you persisted in seeing some difference. And you call it "blasting holes"? Dear me.
120

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/02/2009 11:21:01
#126 "The views of the public are of little importance to him in this matter - he has a single overriding aim of independence"

LOL!

How does Alex Salmond hope to achieve independence? Not by a military coup, but by a referendum. The views of the public, therefore, are of somewhat paramount importance...
121

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2009 11:21:02
#125 If you think that other people you have talked to are me, then it's no wonder you have a low opinion of me. Let me assure you yet again that I only ever post here under this name. Please stop associating me with the views of others who are nothing to do with me.
122

Grahamski,

Falkirk 05/02/2009 11:21:15
121
I understand your point perfectly. I disagree, watch out for another spot of self-righteous indignation from proven fantasist and arch-fibber Mr Salmond.
Expect a tirade about England stopping Scotland voting......
123

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2009 11:22:01
#127 Erm, no, it has nothing to do with how many people agree with me. Perhaps you misunderstood. Try reading it again.
124

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/02/2009 11:23:18
#131 "It is you who equates "coming out of it badly" with "suffering in the public view", not me. I posted my opinion"

So as I said, what you mean was that they came out of it badly in your house, but that the vast majority of the rest of the public thinks they did a fine job. Thanks, we're nice and clear now. So, about Glenrothes?
125

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2009 11:24:03
#129/132 Read it again. How hard is it to follow a thread?

The views of the public as to whether a referendum should be held are of no importance to the SNP. The views of the public as to independence are of paramount importance to them.

Do you understand? I'm saying that the timing of a referendum will be based on whether they think they can win it, not whether the people want it now.
126

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 11:24:09
118 Rev S

Duncan has a set of Rules of Engagement which you must observe before he will engage.

No mention of opinion polls or consensus views on a subject.

Certainly no name calling (this rule does not apply to duncan who bandies the word arrogant around as if it's going out of fashion. "Pathetic" has featured on this thread too.)
127

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2009 11:25:16
#130 There was no clarity on whether it was new money or moved money, and that was what Harvie asked for on the day. The SNP brushed him aside, thinking they had done enough to get his votes. They learnt their lesson.
128

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2009 11:27:36
#138 I appreciate that you're trying to understand, but it's still getting away from you.

The first rule is - opinion poll results are not an argument in favour of something - they are evidence of what other people believe. They do not answer a question or close down a debate.

The second rule is - don't be annoying. This rule does not apply to me.
129

,

05/02/2009 11:28:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
130

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 11:28:26
134 Graham

"arch fibber"

Watch out, Duncan will be on your case for name calling.

On the other hand, he probably won't. As seen so far on this thread he only objects to nationalist name calling.
131

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 11:30:09
137 duncan

ahhh, yes but that is not what you said in your original post duncan.
132

Ananurhing,

05/02/2009 11:30:56
Duncan. I have to agree with the Reverend at #88. I read your posts, and whilst I seldom agree with them, I believe you are sincere. The delusional spin in your posts today is pretty desperate, and in danger of being taken as seriously as Rufus's. Even he had the good grace to congratulate the SNP.

BTW, aren't all churches just made up?
133

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 11:31:12
149 Duncan

:)
134

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 11:31:25
I meant 140
135

Talorthane,

05/02/2009 11:31:26
94 W U Merchant,Aberdeen

"1979 + Tories + SNP = Thatcher"


Gordon Brown + Margaret Thatcher = tea and financial chaos

136

Rodster,

Glasgow 05/02/2009 11:32:14
On your first point Duncan that you only post in the one name and i must be mistaken thinking others are you , well that could be possible you unionists to tend to all talk the same mince , all avoid answering direct questions , never admit to a political party allegiance ,attack every policy good or bad by SNP.
Talk down wherever possible the Scottish nation or a concept of nationhood , the population , anyone who wishes Independence over Dependence.
Name call yet accuse the nationalists of the very thing you do.
You never ,ever can come up with reasons to stay in the Union you have double standards everywhere .Your latest being the SNP will choose a date for referendum that suits them to ensure best chance of winning , unlike of course Gordon Brown who will decide to hold a General Election when? when it is best for the Tories , the people of the UK, or when exactly Duncan??
That of course is ok UK GOOD
Scotland BAD
137

Arfur,

05/02/2009 11:35:49
#11 Julian., - Labour got more than they were offered last week, not less.
Eh no - they took less. They were offered a further years worth in the budget the week before, They were not offered that this week i.e. less.

#various Duncan in Edinburgh - I am not surprised you don’t get it based on your posts, your as thick as mince.
'My greatest respect goes to the Greens here. They knew they were being taken for granted, and bullied, by the SNP, who thought they could fob them off with a wave of the hand. They were right to stand up to them last week, and that gave the SNP a bloody nose.' - really? So you don’t think it is rather thick to ask for X, get X but yet vote against it (like Labour did last year). Thank g*d your not in politics.
'The SNP emerge worst of all here. They have shown themselves to be bullies, and they have yet again demonstrated their arrogance. But more importantly they have lost credibility' - really? Tell that to the 91% of Scotland that supported the SNP over the budget. Oh and seen the polls? SNP support is up. So how exactly do come up with the conclusion that the SNP have been hurt by this? Or is it just your usual pathetic writing for writing sake anything you persoanlly believe in your hatred for the SNP.
'But I'll stick to arguing the political points,' - when did you start? I must have missed it.
'look at all the people who agree with me.' - you mean the 3 or 4 guys that have about 3 names each which represent about 3% of the posters on these threds? What an argument.
'forced to think again by dint of wielding a bigger sword than your votes enable' - really? its almost exactly the same budget you tool.
'can't understand why it can't always get its own way' - really? I was under the impression they just passed the budget by an almost 100% thumbs up by the parties.
'and most of the people I spoke to about it placed the blame squarely with their arrogance' - 91% of the population SUPPORTED THE SNP, get a grip man. Who were you ta
138

Arfur,

05/02/2009 11:36:29
cont -

'and most of the people I spoke to about it placed the blame squarely with their arrogance' - 91% of the population SUPPORTED THE SNP, get a grip man. Who were you talking to? Yourself?
#52 Grahamski, - Gee it a rest. There are policies from all parties in the budget. You have been told this so many times. I know you are a complete half wit but I would think that at least some sense would have oozed itself into your brain by now.

#76 It's life but not as we know it - 'the SNP has lost my whole family and judging by talking to them, all my neighbours too' - as you have never voted SNP I cant see how that could be the case. As for your neighbours they are going against the trend as SNP support is up.
139

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2009 11:37:08
#148 I love a good stream-of-conciousness rant.

For the record, I completely agree that Gordon Brown will pick the best time for a General Election based on what he thinks he can achieve. I would fully support a shift to a fixed timetable of general elections along the US model.
140

Rodster,

Glasgow 05/02/2009 11:42:00
#151 so Duncan as i said double standards Uninoist style huh?
Ok for Gordon Brown to choose a time for his demise , sorry General Election , but bad for SNP to choose timing of referendum?
Is this what you are actually saying .
Try an yes or no
141

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2009 11:44:54
#149 Thanks for taking the time to rant Arfur, but I'm stymied at the first criticism - my thick as mince what?

Oh and "look at all the people who agree with me" was my description of my opposition's argument, not an exhortation of my own.

Perhaps there should be a little grammar & comprehension test to allow people into these forums, so that some level of intelligent debate can be had, rather than a vast number of posts explaining the meaning of previous posts over and over again.
142

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2009 11:46:49
#152 Do I seriously need to use single syllable words to you?

I *agreed* with you in #151. I *don't* think general election dates should be set by the sitting government.

You must have a very angry existence, since you are determined to argue even when people express their agreement with you.
143

Rodster,

Glasgow 05/02/2009 11:54:31
you are correct on one thing Duncan I am very angry , angry at pompous self effacing people like you.
People that have lorded it over Scotland and its people for far too long .
You are like so many Unionists on here ,labour in particular who are affronted that anyone dares question the staus quo of Labour in absolute power in Scotland in every local authority ,Holyrood , every health board and quango , and no questions to be asked.
Brown shows it in Westminster he is like a raging bull when questioned by anyone in Parliament the same kind of pompous arrogance you show on these boards , the I know everything, and you smelly horrible people have the cheek to question my views...
That sums you up to me , I reckon in my minds eye if you are married or in a civil partnership your wife or boyfriend would not dare question your word on fear of wrath from an arrogant bully .
144

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/02/2009 11:56:09
#139 "They learnt their lesson."

What, by getting the budget passed while giving the Greens LESS money? Ouch!
145

The Tin Man,

05/02/2009 11:57:10
Rodster accuses someone of being a pompous, arrogant bully! That is the funnniest post so far on this thread.
146

The Tin Man,

05/02/2009 11:58:01
#156 Rev

Rev - what do you think of Rodster's posts today?
147

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 05/02/2009 11:59:05
A political masterclass from Messrs Swinney & Salmond.

The threat of a general election fairly concentrated the lab/lib dum minds, and they could not wait to make up for their error of judgement last week.

It was however, curious behaviour from the Greens, who even having on offer the largest housing insulation programme Scotland has ever had, still managed to vote against the budget.
148

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2009 12:01:49
#155 Oh dear. I suggest you need to calm down. It's just the internet, and as a result you know nothing about me, and have projected your hatred onto me quite inappropriately.

I am not the person you describe. I am not in power over anyone, I would not defend a Labour stranglehold over Scottish institutions should one exist, and my partner does not live in fear of me - though he does sometimes like it a little bit rough.
149

The Tin Man,

05/02/2009 12:06:54
#159

Other class-members being Robert the Bruce, and a spider?
150

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 05/02/2009 12:09:22
#161 Tin Man

Certainly not Iain Gray anyway.

The Herald 05/02/09

“But Labour could hardly celebrate this as a breakthrough deal, as it was exactly the offer they had rejected 10 days ago. Labour leader Iain Gray tried to imply they got more than that by welcoming money for retraining for the unemployed, but that was already in the government's plans.”

151

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 05/02/2009 12:10:48
#107 AJ Fife
"Good to see Mr Salmond making the Parliament dance to his tune. Alistair Sim, the Scottish Tory leader, and Ian Gray were paticularly vigorous in their wee jig.

The Greens looked a wee bit left oot though :)"

Goldie was fair hooching it up. Prancers Scott and Gray were caught with their pants down, but eventually made it, red-faced, to the floor before the dance ended. Harvie just sulked in the corner because he cannae dance.

152

Rodster,

GLASGOW 05/02/2009 12:13:52
Duncan I am perfectly calm and rational, you and Tin Man can try all you like to spin otherwise.
You are incapable of debating you only smear and pontificate.
You hate the SNP and all Nationalists . yet if I ask you or Tin Man here to list 10 things that make it worthwhile for Scotland to remain in the Union you could not come up with them.
I or any Nationalist could list at least 10 reasons to leave the union .
The likelihood is you could only come up with attacks against SNP or reasons not to leave the union .,the too weak ,too poor ,too stupid type arguments.
None of you are able to come up with reasons to remain that is what is so frustrating about attempting to debate with you lot.
Even when you know yourselves you have no arguments to support the stauts quo you continue to snipe and ridicule all that is Scottish and all that is to do with self Determination
153

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2009 12:15:35
#164 "Impotent rage"? An odd choice of words, since we *beat* Brian Souter's homophobic organisation, won the debate, and history has proved that his predictions of a tide of filth raining down on our children were the lies we said they were.

"Impotent" is when you can't win, sunshine, not when you wipe the floor with your opposition like we did in the Section 28 campaign.
154

The Tin Man,

05/02/2009 12:16:55
Now Rodster claims to be "perfectly calm and rational"!

LMAO, as the Bishop said to the unionist poster.
155

The Tin Man,

05/02/2009 12:18:24
Rodster accuses people of smear and pontification!!!!

This is really brightening up my day :-)
156

Rodster,

Glasgow 05/02/2009 12:24:09
Seeing as I have brightened up your day Tin Man , perhaps you could give me 5 reasons to stay in the Union, i will let duncy give us the other 5 .
Or do you prefer just to snipe from the sidelines?
157

brownlie,

05/02/2009 12:25:53
166 Duncan

In what way has history proved that "his predictions of a tide of filth raining down on our children were lies"? How do you define history?
158

British flag,

05/02/2009 12:29:50
So, the SNP have got their way,through bribery, talking the talk,and lets face it bullying, thier one aim, to divide and conquer,with salmond at the forefront as usual.
159

AJ Fife,

05/02/2009 12:34:21
#171,

At last you're getting the idea!
160

Rodster,

GLASGOW 05/02/2009 12:34:40
What happened Tin Man , could you not come up with 5 reasons to stay in the Union just going to Pontificate are you???LMAO!!!
161

,

05/02/2009 12:35:40
Comment Removed By Administrator
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162

British flag,

05/02/2009 12:37:07
172. PITY YOU AREN'T,BUT HEY,WITH THE BRAIN THE SIZE OF A WALNUT YOU CANAE HELP IT!
163

brownlie,

05/02/2009 12:38:17
171 British Flag? what's that?

The SNP got their way by forming a budget from their limited resources for the benefit of Scotland. Lib/Dems and Labour, being a bit slow on the uptake, realised the common sense behind it and voted accordingly. Why else would they vote for it? If you're suggesting that they are open to bribery who could blame you?
164

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 05/02/2009 12:38:55
Anybody here care to bet their house on Scotland voting for independence next year?
165

British flag,

05/02/2009 12:40:57
177. You got it pal!
166

British flag,

05/02/2009 12:44:00
176. I'm suggesting that salmond used less than honourable tactic.
167

Arfur,

05/02/2009 12:45:40
#113 Grahamski - if that was really the case the Salmond could right now say that because of the current climate he would put off the referendum next year. Instead he is saying it will still go ahead blowing your argument right out of the water.
168

AJ Fife,

05/02/2009 12:47:30
Kimba#175,

How many times do I have to tell you, when you start using caps you've lost the argument.

What's the score now - AJ 1516 kimba/British Flag 0
169

The Master,

05/02/2009 12:47:53
#104 Connaught Boy: I would tend to agree with you that there is every likelihood that the SP would support a referendum, were it not for the little inconvenience of that rigged wording that no one can understand (except the lawyers!)
170

Arfur,

05/02/2009 12:48:47
122 Duncan in Edinburgh - ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? I think you will find that the £33m the asked for was in the budget.
171

alanh,

ek 05/02/2009 12:48:58
#44 duncan
"I really don't understand the crowing from the SNP support on this - except that I understand that you would pretty much crow about anything without troubling your brains with understanding what any of it actually means."


your blinkerred view seems to be in the minority duncan.
Nearly every indicator from last weeks NO vote was that Nu liebore and the lib dums were playing party politics and were in the wrong.
The lib dums backed down totally from their "principled" position of "we are not talking unless you take 2p off income tax". Therefore THEY chose not to be part of the initial budget discussions to play petty party politics.
The nu liebore party, north brittian dept, were offerred many of their proposals in the run up to last week's vote. One of them was the apprenticeships that they "got" to enable them to vote this week. They declined last week again, like the lib dums, to play petty party politics over people's jobs and livelyhoods. They only voted NO to look tough thinking that a done deal had been made with the greens to pass the budget. Instead they had to scurry back to our govt to try to get some sort of face saving "concession"( one they had already knocked back) that leaves them open to the ridicule they rightly deserve. They simply dont/cant understand that they are NO LONGER the party in power and have no understanding of the responsibilities of opposition where it is correct to vote from a principled position on something you GENUINELY oppose but that it is time to stop the we wont vote for any idea that those nasty SNP have. Its time for them to finally grow up.
The greens, imo, overplayed their hand. They had been given a greater sum for their insulation policy than any other one I have seen offerred. As is usual in negotiations they started unrealistically high and had to compromise. They held out for more than was available last week. Because of that our govt had a little time to access the situation and rightly, imo, in
172

alanh,

ek 05/02/2009 12:49:54
#184 contd
Because of that our govt had a little time to access the situation and rightly, imo, introduced some means testing to the process but still allocated £15m of govt money with the addition of £15 of local govt and private finance. Not as much as the greens wanted but more than they had been offerred elsewhere.
Altho it sticks in my throat to say so, as an ex lifelong labour( not NEW liebore) party member and activist, Auntie Annabelle and co seems to be the only main opposition party that actually gets what minority govt is all about and played her hand well

Now all the opposition parties are part of the budget and cannot complain about amounts of money allocated as they agreed with it
173

brownlie,

05/02/2009 12:50:13
179 British Flag

You did not "suggest" anything - you stated at 171 that the SNP got their way through bribery - which would appear to be a criminal offence both for the giver and the taker! Who is susceptible to bribes and who is susceptibe to bullying?
174

Grahamski,

Falkirk 05/02/2009 12:55:06
180
Why would Mr Salmond need to take the 'current climate' climate into account when considering a referendum?
You don't need to be a weatherman to know which way the wind blows and you don't need to be a clairvoyant to predict Mr Salmond will blame England for the collapse of his referendum.
Mr Salmond may well be a hopeless fantasist with an almost phobic aversion to the truth but he's not daft.
175

Shave,

Edinburgh 05/02/2009 12:55:35
#183 Arfur

I think you'll find that only the £22m was in the 'first' budget. The rest was to be 'wished' from other projects and from housing associations.
176

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2009 12:58:49
#184 "Nu liebore" - more cutting satire.

I'm at a loss as to what your two references to the Greens getting a better deal "than they had been offered elsewhere" might mean. Who else were they dealing with?
177

Scottish 'N British,

05/02/2009 13:03:47
188

Given the most recent poll, Salmon would be daft to go for it. Losing would mean it kiled for a generation. Or so he said, but i don't think he'd walk away as easy as that, regardless of previous promises that he would.

Anyway, this leaves him in a bind.

As thing stands, there's no appetite, within or without Parliament for a referendum vote. I'd like to see it happen, to kill it off, once and for all.

He has few options so may well contrive to put it off, blaming Westminster in some way.

Watch this space.

178

British flag,

05/02/2009 13:05:33
181. LOOK PAL I'LL USE CAPS IF I WISH,AND WHO THE HELL IS KIMBA,ARE YOU SOME SORT OF PERV.
179

brownlie,

05/02/2009 13:06:23
191 Scottish

If the unionists are so confident of winning a referendum why not push for one and have it "kiled for a generation"? Why was Wendy's offer so quickly withdrawn by Brown??
180

British flag,

05/02/2009 13:08:33
193. I AGREE, come on people we can sink this nat ship once and for all.
181

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2009 13:11:35
#193 What continues to astonish me is that you live in a world where "Brown" is the leader of "the Unionists". You have a grossly oversimplified view of the world.

Plenty of people on both sides of the debate want a referendum held to answer the question for once and for all.
182

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/02/2009 13:15:39
#191 "As thing stands, there's no appetite, within or without Parliament for a referendum vote."

You know a thing that's white? Black, that's what.
183

British flag,

05/02/2009 13:19:48
196.Shouldn't you be tending to your parishioner's needs instead of posting drivel on here!
184

Miss H,

05/02/2009 13:20:54
Two things I don’t think have been mentioned in the analysis.

1. Why did Labour and the Lib Dems cave in so suddenly? Partly it was the realisation that they would lose a subsequent election heavily – polls made it clear the SNP and Tories stood to gain most from a snap election. But partly it was of the response of local authorities and public sector unions throughout Scotland. Labour have always regarded the public sector as being in their pockets but it was made very clear that they were not. And John Swinney has played an absolute blinder getting the local authorities on side.
2. What are the implications for Labour? I have always thought Iain Gray is not as stupid as he sounds, why did he behave this way? Possibly to appease the arch SNP haters like Foulkes and Baillie. The rumour was that he (Gray) wanted to abstain but such was the hatred of the SNP in the Labour Group that was not an option. It will be very interesting to see how matters pan out in the Labour MSP Group following this.

The final point I would make is that it doesn’t actually matter a tinker’s cuss what the press or other MSPs or Scotsman posters think of the Budget, all that matters is what the Scottish electorate think of it and I think they will like it. Who cares if it had Tory support? Margaret Curran was trying to play the Tartan Tory card yesterday for al she was worth. Well that ship has sailed Margaret just like your chances of winning back Glasgow East for Labour. If the SNP had ‘conceded’ anything in the Budget to the Tories which was unpopular she might have a point. But who is against more police, cutting business rates and a town centre regeneration fund (which Labour also wanted). No, all the political machinations came to nothing in the end. We have a Budget that is probably as good as it could be in the circumstances and Labour, Lib Dems and Tories have all signed up to it and by doing to signed up to make the Government’s programme work.
185

Miss H,

05/02/2009 13:23:46
Re the referendum - the bill will go to parliament. It is totally up to the unionist parties if it goes through. If they are confident of winning it they should support the referendum. If they don't support it we can draw our own conclusions.
186

,

05/02/2009 13:23:48
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Reason:
187

alanh,

ek 05/02/2009 13:24:32
#190 duncan
"184 "Nu liebore" - more cutting satire.

I'm at a loss as to what your two references to the Greens getting a better deal "than they had been offered elsewhere" might mean. Who else were they dealing with?"

did the previous administration offer any money for insulation? Not that i remember. have ANY of the opposition parties came out either before or after budget vote 1 and said that they would have given the greens £33+ of govt money? any money?

as for the nu liebore tag, duncan, its simply what I think of a party that i was once proud to vote for, when they were a genuine socialist party called Labour, that bliar and mandelson have ruined and moved to the right of thatcher, imo.
188

brownlie,

05/02/2009 13:27:22
195 Duncan

You do not know anything about my world but to help you out I'll simplify it for you - Gordon Brown is the only leader in Britain at the present time who can call a referendum. I did not present Brown as the leader of the unionists although he probably regards himself as such. You could not expect anything less from the man who "saved the world."
189

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 05/02/2009 13:28:55
Rev. S. Campbell,Bath 05/02/2009 10:41:19
It was apparent that Iain Gray thought that he could become FM if the budget didn't pass at its second presentation. He went as far as ask the PO how a "no confidence" motion had to be put before the house.
Following that in FMQs last Thursday he made it clear in his question that he had approached the civil service and that setting the budget as late as mid-June would not result in the loss of any of the additional £1.7 billion for the year.
Presumably this was to allow time for a Holyrood election and his subsequent installation as FM.
His ignorance of the procedure by which local authorities set their budgets is worrying.
He did not seem to realise that by mid-June all the budgets would be in place, based on last year's authorised budget. Services would already have been cut and staff made redundant.
Local authorities have a legal requirement to set a budget for the following year based on the powers granted to them by Holyrood's annual budget.
They could neither put off setting a budget until mid-June nor set one based on the promised £1.7 billion.
190

Miss H,

05/02/2009 13:29:48
195 Brown is the leader of the Unionists. He is the Prime Minister of Great Britain. It is one his jobs to uphold the Union. If David Cameron becomes PM he will become the leader of the Unionists in his turn.

Whether Cameron gives two hoots about the Union remains to be seen. We know Brown does. He is a unionist by conviction as well as through his position as PM.

191

The Master,

05/02/2009 13:29:48
#194 Flag: I think we'd actually be doing the Nats a favour if their separation policy was holed beneath the water line "for a generation".

If the party's popular just now with the separation policy, just think how popular it could be after it's been freed of the unpopular albatross (or so the thinking will no doubt go amongst the more pragmatic in the party!)

#196 Fakey Rev: weren't you in some Ken Russell film or other? The one that stars Anthony Perkins, I think it was!
192

Miss H,

05/02/2009 13:31:03
205 You know we are unstoppable no matter what. We will climb every mountain, ford every stream, follow every rainbow till we find our dream.
193

Rodster,

Glasgow 05/02/2009 13:32:13
More than one hour after asking the question both tin Man who has dissappeared completely and Duncan cannot come up with 5 reasons each to remain in the Union.
does not stopping them whingeing and groaning on here disparaging anything and everything SNP or Scottish .
Scottish and British if you think that the referendum is going to be so easily lost by the SNP you should be pushing your Unionist donkeys in Holyrood to support the bill in parliament .
That way you can see of those pesky Nationalists for a generation.
Then maybe you can negotiate with your betters in Westminster for more pocket money for us in Scotland too.
Those nice Westminster people
194

Miss H,

05/02/2009 13:36:59
203 says 'It was apparent that Iain Gray thought that he could become FM if the budget didn't pass at its second presentation.'

That was not apparent to me. It was apparent that the likes of Foulkes and Baillie wanted that, Iain Gray looked decidedly uncomfortable to me.
195

British flag,

05/02/2009 13:38:43
200. would you like to say that to my face you little sh-t,don't know this kimba character and quite frankly i don't want to know you,but if you insist on being anti-social i will gladly oblige.
196

Grahamski,

Falkirk 05/02/2009 13:39:27
207
Don't tell me, tomorrow belongs to you?
197

British flag,

05/02/2009 13:44:28
208. SECURITY
TRADING POWERS
BIGGER SAY IN THE WORLD
comradery
ONLY 29% OS SCOTS WANT INDEPENDENCE!!
198

Rodster,

Glasgow 05/02/2009 13:44:34
#211 Well Grahamski don't know about that , but you and your fellow unionists are till living in the past.
you cannot get it through your thick sculls that it changed forever in May2007 .
The days of Labour domination , and unquestioning local authorities are gone forever
199

British flag,

05/02/2009 13:45:32
207. lol,lol,lol,lo,lol,lol,lol,lol,lol,lol,lol!
200

Grahamski,

Falkirk 05/02/2009 13:45:33
213
What musical is that from then?
201

TWC,

05/02/2009 13:45:46
To all the New Labour supporters on here how deluded can you be, Labour are absolutely useless if they really felt strongly last week they should have stuck to their position and voted against.
The Libdems accepted their mistake and are trying a new way and it may work.
The Green stuck to their position and that may be right for them but the big prize is still Trident replacement and Nuclear Power for them, so patrick will have to negotiate with Swinney on his requirements of the reduced £3Million.
The Tories outdid all the opposition people yet again.
The Nats,are restricted to control of what's left of the £33Billion that is not committed to Health, Transport and the cross party agreements - the cost of Minority Government - But they come out looking good.

The big question is what are all our MPs doing at Westminster for Scotland. We sent them there to represent us on reserved issues but at Scottish Questions all they did was attack the Scottish Government.
Time to do as the Speaker said and do the business you were elected to do.
202

British flag,

05/02/2009 13:47:04
213. What goes around comes around,snps turn soon.
203

AJ Fife,

05/02/2009 13:47:10
#210,

That's better. Using caps was so unfriendly, maybe you can now find a reasonable level of decorum and start debating in a more adult way.

You know it makes sense.....

204

Grahamski,

Falkirk 05/02/2009 13:48:13
216
Absolutely, presumably Mr Salmond will stick to reserved issues too?
205

Grahamski,

Falkirk 05/02/2009 13:49:00
219
...or devolved issues when he's got his FM hat on!
206

Rodster,

Glasgow 05/02/2009 13:53:14
#217 you give credence to my post British flag , it is a new ball game now.
No more total domination by Labour party .
so yes the day will come when the SNP are not the governing party for sure .
However I think that is a long way off , all the parties in Scotland can see how much better this country is governed without labour .
I predict that it will be a very ,long time before you ever see a Labour controlled administration in Holyrood or Westminster.
More so in Westminster years of opposition there
207

British flag,

05/02/2009 13:53:30
218. As you seem to be some kind of wind-up merchant who gets their kicks from insulting people i will ignore your comments,however, if you should ever insult my parentage again i will have not the slightest of trouble putting your rather enlarged head through the nearest window.
208

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 05/02/2009 13:57:16
#208 Rodster

I seem to recall that the wee Unionist band were asked recently what they thought was wrong with the original budget proposals, and where they thought the re-introduced version was an improvement.

None of them were able to come up with any answers, indeed one of them, “Grahamiski”, actually admitted that he was not aware of the content of the original budget.

I will therefore all ask all Unionists the questions again:

“What was wrong with the original budget proposals, and what has changed one week later to allow them to support what is essentially the same budget?”

I am sitting back, awaiting a deluge of silence.
209

British flag,

05/02/2009 13:59:18
221. With the greatest respect,that is a load of tosh! I have no doubt whatsoever that Labour will win the next general election simply because cameron uses to much spin,with brown what you see is what you get.
210

AJ Fife,

05/02/2009 14:01:06
#224,

Do you see the election as a game of ten pin bowling?
211

Rodster,

Glasgow 05/02/2009 14:02:04
#224 if you believe that British flag then talking off your mother she obviously dropped you on your head at an early age .
you are more bonkers than even Brown.
I will put a kings ransom on the Real tories as opposed to the NU LABOUR TORIES getting a majority of at least 50+
212

Rodster,

Glasgow 05/02/2009 14:05:08
#223 Bully wee I would not hold your breath awaiting an answer form any of them .
You know they do not answer direct questions , they only gripe and snipe .
I asked any of them to give me just 5 reasons to remain in the Union .. two hours later still waiting , in fact Tin Man has been recalled to Keir Hardie house for retraining .
It is negativity in politics and Posting PartVI today I believe
213

British flag,

05/02/2009 14:07:07
225. Do you see it as some kind of challenge to your scottishness.
214

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 05/02/2009 14:10:10
#222 British Fascist.

“i will have not the slightest of trouble putting your rather enlarged head through the nearest window.”

Rather an illuminating comment.

Are you one of those rather intellectually challenged Unionist individuals who proclaim their right to parade along your Queen’s highway expressing their desire to have carnal knowledge of a German priest who happens to live in Rome?

Show us your tattoos!
215

British flag,

05/02/2009 14:11:30
227.As the entire world economy is up the swanee,pray tell what brown could of done! The yanks started this and i'm afraid the yanks will have to finish it.
216

British flag,

05/02/2009 14:15:03
230. And are you one of those nats that gets up salmonds ar=se and sings the hallelujah chorus!
217

,

05/02/2009 14:16:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
218

AJ Fife,

05/02/2009 14:16:42
#233,

Kimba, you're getting angry again. The men in white coats will have to sort ye oot.......again!
219

British flag,

05/02/2009 14:18:50
235. feel safe behind your wee computer,don't bank on it!
220

Rodster,

Glasgow 05/02/2009 14:24:31
#236 tut tut Butchers Apron Flag,temper ,temper
do not be making threats play nice or go into the bad corner
221

Jinselkirk,

selkirk 05/02/2009 14:27:06
Why would we want to save the liberals from extinction?
They are doing a very good job at becoming irrelevant.
222

British flag,

05/02/2009 14:30:20
237. When this arrogent,vindictive,aggressive,Supercilious individual "plays nice" i will too, until then not a chance in hell!
223

Rufus-T-Firefly,

05/02/2009 14:32:03
101 Mikey,05/02/2009 10:54:12
Free by 2093. You are Racist Rufus and I claim my £5!
BTW, Can you tell us just exactly how the budget changed between last week and this? No? Thought not.
Once again, another of Racist Rufus' alter egos spouts a load of garbage. You really are becoming soooo predictable!
======================================================

Mad Mikey the Brain Dead Nutter gets it wrong again.

Free by 2093 has nothing to do with me, even although I do enjoy him tying you in knots.



224

British flag,

05/02/2009 14:34:28
Can someone please explain why we don't cut this arrogant,self centred country loose! we have all we need in England and Wales and don't need the hassle of such a ungrateful people.
225

Rodster,

Glasgow 05/02/2009 14:35:04
#230 Bully Wee see what you have done asking a direct question poor old Duncan ,Grahamski and the others have all run away .
I told you they do not like direct questions that require truthful answers .
For it is the truth that scares them ,they are like jilted lovers .
Turns out that under Labour it isn't the Land of milk and honey after all.
It is not just those nasty Tories that have had their evil way with them and cast them aside like an old used slipper
They are empty shirts with empty arguments , no vision , nothing of importance or substance to say .
Quite sad actually, probably sitting at home now , curtains drawn , lights out , The Betamax VCr on playing the Battle of Britain ,, Bridge too Far or
Zulu , feeling all nostalgic for those glorious Imperial days when Brittania Ruled the Waves.

226

,

05/02/2009 14:36:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
227

John S,

05/02/2009 14:36:38
#234 Traquir , Alba,
What have Scottish MPs done since devolution? A lot less work;
Scottish MPs take part in less than half the votes in Westminster, falling far below the levels even for their Welsh counterparts, while their workload in scrutinising government has plummeted since the Scottish parliament was set up.

The definitive study of devolution throughout the UK has found that Scottish MPs' participation rate in House of Commons votes, which hovered above the 50% mark in 1999-2000, fell to 48% in 2001, the year of the last Westminster election. That compares with a Welsh voting record at 63%, which was slightly above even that of English MPs.

The think-tank research, based on House of Commons statistics, also found the number of oral and written questions asked by Scottish MPs has more than halved since the creation of the Scottish parliament. Time for monthly Scottish questions at Westminster has been halved to 30 minutes, and rarely extends beyond the second or third query on the order paper. The Sunday Herald, Jan 26, 2003
228

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 05/02/2009 14:36:53
As Wendy said, "bring it on" and then the vast majority of us can vote and put independence out of its misery. Despite their 2010 promise the Nats won't - and why? Because they are scared and know they won't just lose they will get a real hammering.
229

Rufus-T-Firefly,

05/02/2009 14:40:57
244 Onward Motion,05/02/2009 14:35:45
There really are no good reasons for the union from the Scottish point of view. It is simply disastrous for us.
=====================================================

So speaks one of the small minority.
230

,

05/02/2009 14:42:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
231

Rufus-T-Firefly,

05/02/2009 14:44:26
242 British flag,05/02/2009 14:34:28
Can someone please explain why we don't cut this arrogant,self centred country loose! we have all we need in England and Wales and don't need the hassle of such a ungrateful people.
=======================================================
British Flag, do not be fooled.

The idiots on this forum that espouse the Nasty NatZ point of view, are in the real world a tiny minority.

I can assure you there is very little appetite up here for independence, as was shown in the recent polls.
232

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 05/02/2009 14:47:21
#250 We all have off days. He should have used Gaviscon.
233

British flag,

05/02/2009 14:49:09
252. I'm very pleased to hear it,the way the nats go on you would think Scotland was full of these morons.
234

A Clamper,

Edinburgh 05/02/2009 14:52:06
A bad day for the whingeing Brits. Independence is on the way.
235

Rufus-T-Firefly,

05/02/2009 14:53:43
254 British flag,05/02/2009 14:49:09
252. I'm very pleased to hear it,the way the nats go on you would think Scotland was full of these morons.
=======================================================

From this website you would think so, however you must remember SNP HQ orders them to come on here and swamp the board.

A bit like Salmond trying to rig the Glenrothes Result by ordering his lackies to waste a tenner betting on an SNP win.
236

,

05/02/2009 14:55:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
237

Rufus-T-Firefly,

05/02/2009 14:55:09
256 The Spook in Leith,05

Re-check the rss feed and you will see the "Fake Rufus" had an extra space, so grow up.
238

,

05/02/2009 14:55:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
239

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 05/02/2009 14:58:08
#258 I will certainly encourage all MSPs from all parties to vote for holding a referendum; all the funnier to see the NATs' faces as it all goes down the pan for a generation.
240

Billiam Wallace,

05/02/2009 14:59:26
#254 British fag: The only morons Scotland is full of are you lot who still vote NuLiebore and who want to hold Scotland back as much as possible for as long as possible. I still strongly suspect you unionist trolls of being Liebore MPs, MSPs and cooncillors as no-one else would support the rotten union and your rotten party, come hell or high water, the way you do. We know you are shi*ting yourselves over the fact that your snouts are about to be ripped from the trough but do try to resign yourselves to your well deserved fate with a smidgin of dignity.
241

BMeister,

05/02/2009 14:59:42
British Flag is not Kimba, he can spell for a start.
242

Rufus-T-Firefly,

05/02/2009 15:00:43
261 The Spook in Leith,05/02/2009 14:55:17
Click on this link and check out Rufus near the top of the page..
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/politics/SNP-all-smiles-as-they.4948726.jp?format=rss
Rufus you are a disgrace, why mimic someone else's blog ?
======================================================

Once again Spook, Grow Up.
243

British flag,

05/02/2009 15:03:27
262.Sticks and stones my little nat friend,insults by the bucket load will not stop salmond getting his rear end kicked if he should ever get the balls to hold a referendum.
244

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 05/02/2009 15:03:33
#265 Whatever you're smoking - probably best to lay off it a bit.
245

British flag,

05/02/2009 15:06:55
265. And their are a lot of us around,29% for independence,says it all really.
246

Rufus-T-Firefly,

05/02/2009 15:07:55
272 The Spook in Leith,05/02/2009 15:06:57
Okay i was only winding you up and of course its not you with the blog and you were faked but i certainly took the wind out of your sails and wiped that unionist smirk of your coupon.
=======================================================

:-)
247

Billiam Wallace,

05/02/2009 15:09:53
#257 Dufus: "From this website you would think so, however you must remember SNP HQ orders them to come on here and swamp the board."

Bwahahahahahahahahaha! LOL! No, that's the difference between you unionist trolls and normal people. You are on here because you have self interest in keeping NuLiebore deep in the trough. The SNP supporters and supporters of Scotland's independence are here for the love of their country and their desire for a brighter future.

"A bit like Salmond trying to rig the Glenrothes Result by ordering his lackies to waste a tenner betting on an SNP win."

Poor Alex couldn't have known at the time that all the positive polls and indicators were useless as NuLiebore had already arranged for the election to be fixed using fake postal votes.
248

Rufus-T-Firefly,

05/02/2009 15:10:26
Hey Spook, whats your address?

I am going to come round to yours at 5 in the morning and cover your pavement with water.
249

,

05/02/2009 15:10:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
250

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 05/02/2009 15:10:49
And now in a master stroke Alex has slashed the peanuts he offered to the Greens to punish them for not backing his mob. So now every beardy hippy nutter in Scotland won't vote for his independence claptrap either. Good going!
251

Rufus-T-Firefly,

05/02/2009 15:14:24
279 Onward Motion,05/02/2009 15:10:49
I don't understand what you mean. As far as I'm aware, it was the SNP who won the election and are your government.
========================================================
When did the SNP become a "Government"?
252

Wardog™,

05/02/2009 15:15:19


280. Jezus Rufus, don't you ever wash, that comment was rancid.

253

British flag,

05/02/2009 15:15:25
274.And never believe what salmond tells you,'cause you can bet your last pound he can't afford it!
254

Wardog™,

05/02/2009 15:16:57

277. Yup, right wing lunatics with a bent for british jingoist deviance and dressing up.
255

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2009 15:17:53
What an astonishing silence from all sides in response to the nasty, personal homophobia from John George Mackay in #241 and #249. I would have hoped such small-minded bigotry would be condemned by his compatriots in the SNP ranks, but apparently not.

Centre-left party? Aye, right.
256

Rufus-T-Firefly,

05/02/2009 15:19:57
285 Duncan in Edinburgh,05/02/2009 15:17:53
What an astonishing silence from all sides in response to the nasty, personal homophobia from John George Mackay in #241 and #249.
==================================================

249 was mine????????????
257

Richard Lionheart,

05/02/2009 15:21:07
Going back to the Greens,

To put it in context, the Greens scuppered the first vote and voted against this time because they want to save a few thousand tons of CO2 emissions in their Futile attempt to save the planet. By these actions they have proved that they are a one horse party.

They have no regard whatsoever for the 40,000 people whose jobs would be at risk or the thousands of families whose livelihoods would be put at risk by their lack of understanding of the current economic situation.

They should be happy that due to the economic deprivation being caused throughout the World that Co2 emissions have dropped significantly as a result.

The other parties appear to have recognised their obligations to people and have come up with the goods. Long may Scotland and its people prosper!
258

Rufus-T-Firefly,

05/02/2009 15:21:30
287 Onward Motion,05/02/2009 15:18:18
When Scotland voted for them to be our government. And your government.
======================================================
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

"GOVERNMENT"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
259

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2009 15:21:43
#288 Oops. #241 and #248, even. Sorry.
260

Wardog™,

05/02/2009 15:22:39


288. I saw your naked behind on a blog recently rufus.

I didn't know you were like that, other prominant fundamentalist unionists also seemed to feature on th blog.

It ws very very rude
261

Wardog™,

05/02/2009 15:23:24


291. Rufus we're all laughing at you
262

Rufus-T-Firefly,

05/02/2009 15:23:51
286 The Spook in Leith,05/02/2009 15:17:57
Dont joke about that sort of thing. I was at a factors meeting with Bird of prey last week and a lot of the residents are complaining about them wee (Keep Edinburgh clean) road sweepers trucks coming into the car park at 3, 4 and 5am in the morning.
====================================================
That was me on my moped.
I will toot my horn next time.
263

Wardog™,

05/02/2009 15:25:26


297. Don't you have a proper license?

You are a student rufus aren't you?

Which party are you member of?
264

Rufus-T-Firefly,

05/02/2009 15:26:45
401
265

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 05/02/2009 15:27:43
Let's just do what England does: start printing loads more money and be happy.
266

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2009 15:28:02
#296 My point is that he is on your side. But like Roseanna Cunnungham, he seems to enjoy the privilege of being homophobic without rebuttal.

But you're right, it was a kinda cheap shot. Given how many I take, I'm allowed to give a few out too.
267

Roger Reckless,

05/02/2009 15:31:18
#276: it's in Rennie's Isle, Leith (posh flat paid for by his rich parents!)
268

Billiam Wallace,

05/02/2009 15:31:31
#291, Dufus:

"When no-one elected Gudrun Strangely-Brown or Mandy to be our government"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

"GOVERNMENT"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Oh wait, that's not actually funny, we're not laughing at their antics now. Dufus, stop trolling on behalf of the union, it's indefensible and well past its sell-by date, as are Strangely Brown and his parcel of rogues.
269

Rufus-T-Firefly,

05/02/2009 15:35:23
305 Roger Reckless,05/02/2009 15:31:18
#276: it's in Rennie's Isle, Leith (posh flat paid for by his rich parents!)
=======================================================

All the Pros will move in when he goes to the States.
270

Rufus-T-Firefly,

05/02/2009 15:40:05
A lot of people watch the 'Men and Motors TV channel.

Spook prefers watching "Grannies and Sewing Machines".
271

Roger Reckless,

05/02/2009 15:45:28
#309: don't worry, I rarely throw my boat race in Leith nowadays (let's just say it was a bit of a business misunderstanding!)
272

Scottish 'N British,

05/02/2009 15:57:25
193

I erad your comment. Then I read it again. I ask myself what is wrong with it. then it dawned on me.

If Friday is Dress Down Day, then Thursday, clearly, must be Dumb Down Day.

Analogy: a tennis player, holding his racket in one hand and his balls in the other, yet demanding his opponent "play".

To simplify, why doesn't Eck bring it forward? That would sort things out for good.

But he won't. Gameb set and match.
273

Rodster,

Glasgow 05/02/2009 16:12:00
#313 Scottish n British , and Thick
When I read your posts I get so angry for 50 years of incompetence by the Labour Party that allowed our education system fail people like you.
It is obviously your lacking of good education and up bringing has made you this sad ill informed and bitter ,bitter soul.
Tell me were you in care all your life ?
Did the bad men visit you and tell you to keep it all a big secret is this what has made you like this?
274

Scottish 'N British,

05/02/2009 16:12:39
306

For the record. Rumour has it you typed in HA each time. Yea or nay?

Curious
275

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 05/02/2009 16:19:52
The real losers in this are Labour. The Lib Dems look to have repositioned themselves and may well take a more constructive approach. Labour and many of its supporters in the media seem to think they should oppose tooth and nail anything that the SNP do but so far this tactic hasn't won them any prizes. For Iain Gray to claim he's won any significant concessions is laughable. If the Lib Dems begin to work pragmatically, as the Tories have, rather than following the ideological dead end of Labour, they will find they can exert influence on policy. Labour, on the other hand, are beginning to look isolated. And worse is yet to come with the European elections later this year...
276

Scottish 'N British,

05/02/2009 16:19:56
314

What's with the questions, Doc? If you want a date you only have to ask.

Please don't get angry, not for one day let alone another 50 years. If I have upset you then I most humbly apologise.

Not.


lol

277

MacMhuirich,

Ljubljana 05/02/2009 16:44:34

The SNP gained in popularity at the expense of Labour at least in part because they were able to come across as a left wing party. Now it seems that they want to portay themselves as a the anti-Labour party irrespective of political principle. I am not sure that becoming closer to the Tories is smart move for the SNP, although it may be expedient in Holyrood.

Anyway, the kind of manoeuvring we have seen over the budget may seem novel, but is standard practice where there is no overall control in an elected body. It happens up and down the country every year in local government and is part of the democratic process. The SNP only form a minority government so it is only natural and reasonable that every party should have their two penn'orth.
278

Scottish 'N British,

05/02/2009 16:46:45
299

How did it feel to have Mr Salmon promise to scrap your student debt only for him to drop you right in the poo once elected?

279

Daveunderwater,

SNP Heartlands 05/02/2009 16:49:17
Here is the "battered budget"

Now approved, the Scottish Budget will deliver: -

- Help for households to beat the credit crunch, providing extra funding for councils to freeze the Council Tax for another year.

- Another cut in the cost of single prescriptions from April, down from £5 to £4... with 12-month pre-payment certificates cut by £10 to £38.

- Business rates for 120,000 small businesses will be abolished, helping shops and local firms cut costs and protect jobs in these tough times.

- £230 million of accelerated infrastructure spending to keep the Scottish economy moving and support 4,700 jobs.
- Extra funds to help train 1,000 additional police officers, to put more bobbies on the beat and improve safety on our streets.

- £15 million to help provide home insulation for 90,000 homes - targeted on those most in need.
- £16 million to recruit 18,500 new apprentices.
PLUS: -
- £300 million more for the NHS.
- £70 million more to invest in affordable housing.
- £60 million more for town centre renewal.
- £40 million more in funding for free personal care for the elderly.

- A total of £1.8 billion in additional expenditure - securing a total of 35,000 jobs!


280

Scottish 'N British,

05/02/2009 16:52:22
318

I refuse to believe I have upset so many Seoparayists in one day. I simply refuse to believe it.

But why should i stop taking the p1sh? You lot jump straight in every time, it's just too good an opportunity to ignore!!

Even seemingly insignificant comments such as my actions at Christmas and New Year is fodder for my cannon.

281

Rodster,

Glasgow 05/02/2009 16:59:38
#319 MacMhuirich
I do not know why people keep going on about the SNP and the Tories being too close.
I do not think Alex Salmond has invited round Aunty Bella(the acceptable face of Conservatives) for tea let alone Thatcher.
The Labour party have even organised a State Funeral for their Heroine Mrs T.
so it is a bit rich for any right wing Nu ZanuLabourite on here to make any reference to Tories Tartan or otherwise.
Personally as a Nationalist to me and to most of the people I know a unionist is a unionist all are as bad as each other.all knee benders to their betters in Westminster , all of them putting Westminster ahead of Scotland.
Now people like Duncan I am sure relish being on their knees I do not .
Time for us to stand on our own two feet and rejoin the world
282

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 17:01:33
285 Duncan

I condemn those posts.
283

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 17:07:23
285 duncan

By the way, I didn't condemn those posts earlier because I had to do some work. Don't assume that silence equates to agreement.
284

Duncan in Edinburgh,

05/02/2009 17:10:54
#325 Thanks Connaughtboy.

#324 Despite it being libellous, I'm not going to request your post be deleted because it says more about you than it does about me. But it's very sad that you hold such anger inside you against someone you don't know from Adam. I suspect in truth I am not the person you hate.
285

Observer,,

Glasgow 05/02/2009 17:12:18
324 Your post is a load of rubbish. To believe in equality for homosexuals does not mean that you are heterophobic. Children do not ''need'' to grow up in heterosexual two parent families - what would you do with all the children who don't have that family composition ? Take them into care ? You are a narrow minded bigot. I may not agree with everything that Duncan says but I have never read anything that justifies your attack on him in any shape or form.

And how dare you presume to speak for the SNP who voted to repeal section 2A. As a parent I do NOT WANT my offspring being taught that there is anything un-natural about homosexuality, so I applauded them for doing so.

You are the fascist - a sexual fascist.
286

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/02/2009 17:15:09
328 No problem Duncan.

I also dis-associate myself (and hopefully the SNP) from JG Mackay in every way possible.
287

Nevsky;,

Moscow 05/02/2009 17:20:56
322 Scot#

Don't flatter yourself that you are upsetting anyone, you aren't!

The fact is that the SNP are governing the country well and everyone knows it.

They are politically light years ahead in terms of political maturity, astuteness and professionalism than the Labour Party who are the weakest bunch of Scottish Labour politicians i can ever remember.

I suspect most unionists, despite their hatred for the independence movement and the SNP, know full well that the SNP are preferable to Iain Gray and Andy Kerr and anyone else within the Scottish Parliament.

The SNP are showing what can be done when parties come together in Holyrood and there is no doubt that every party (apart from the gweens) are happy with the outcome.

There seems to be no major policy dispute and this is what the SNP are building on, consensus and confidence...they are dangling the prospect of full power in front of the parties, legal, financial and international....

Full fiscal autonomy is independence in all but name and with the Tories and Lib Dems on board...the remaining links will be easy enough to sever....especially the promise of real power taunting the Labour Party in Scotland.









288

Rodster,

GLASGOW 05/02/2009 17:22:08
Me too Mr Mackay , nothing I like better than hitting Unionists for 6 but there is a line.

Duncan maybe a diddy but he is our diddy and does not deserve such vitrol.
Personally I think it is much worse to be an outed Unionist now that is deviance
289

,

05/02/2009 17:27:39
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Reason:
290

Arfur,

05/02/2009 17:34:09
#320 Scottish 'N British - 'How did it feel to have Mr Salmon promise to scrap your student debt only for him to drop you right in the poo once elected?'

Probably not that bad seeing they managed to deliever most of the other things they said they would do, unlike the last 10 years of hee haw under Labour.
291

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 05/02/2009 17:41:30
I posted this some time ago, and am still awaiting an answer

I seem to recall that the wee Unionist band were asked recently what they thought was wrong with the original budget proposals, and where they thought the re-introduced version was an improvement.

None of them were able to come up with any answers, indeed one of them, “Grahamiski”, actually admitted that he was not aware of the content of the original budget.

I will therefore all ask all Unionists the questions again:

“What was wrong with the original budget proposals, and what has changed one week later to allow them to support what is essentially the same budget?”

I am sitting back, awaiting a deluge of silence.
292

morris,

edinburgh 05/02/2009 17:42:23
291
The Scottish government or whatever you want to call it has the powers which were given to it courtesy of the Unionist government.
You support that arrangement presumably!
Some areas are devolved,some are reserved.All are subject to change (including possible independence) in a democacy.

A party which aspires to independence signals its intention by calling itself the government ,for in the case of devolved matters IT IS THE GOVERNMENT already !

You really show how childishly pathetic you are by even expending the energy required to type what you did.Has it occurred to you that if we adopt the lesser status in Holyrood we also adopt it at Westminster which also has less than total powers over Scotland and is also ONLY a part of Scotlands government ?
London may have devolved only those powers it does not want ,but it means that Scotlands government sits in two chambers,and both are the legitimately elected government.
The use of the words assembly or whatever have no clear definition anyway,as is obvious by the Welsh and Northern Ireland versions and variation in powers can be and will be evident.
You might address yourself to the real issues of the day instead of behaving like a five year old!
293

Incandescent,

05/02/2009 17:48:10
#328 Duncan "Despite it being libellous"

Was the supposed "libel" in the deleted post aimed at you? If so, no offence occured, as you are not personally identifiable. If not, just forget it.



294

Nevsky;,

Moscow 05/02/2009 18:06:05
338 Blimpy#

The real question shoud be is whether or not 'unionism' is a lifestyle choice, social conditioning or genetic?
295

Scottish 'N British,

05/02/2009 18:08:01
333

These commitments are due to ALL the parties.

For clarity, could you please provide 2 revised lists, one showing

a) those down to the Tories, Labour, Lib Dem and Grrens

and another showing

b) those exclusive to the SNP

Thanks.
296

The Dark Side,

05/02/2009 18:12:31
#338: one man's poison…
297

Rodster,

Glasgow 05/02/2009 18:16:07
#340 what you saying here S&B that you have been rubbishing the budget and you have not got a clue who proposed what?
In true unionist form you just attack anything associated with our Scottish government?
298

The Dark Side,

05/02/2009 18:17:36
#342: many posters dislike anything the SNP does, because it's a nationalist party and nationalism is at the very root of fascism.

OK, I've said it!
299

Rodster,

Glasgow 05/02/2009 18:27:43
#343 Dark Side well thanks for that .
Does that also include those on here that are British nationalists are they too fascists?
300

Ewan Randall,

05/02/2009 18:30:14
(#232) – (Peter) – What makes you believe the government aren’t serious about clearing out corruption from either house of parliament?

Can you prove the government aren’t serious about clearing out corruption from either house of parliament?

What kind of advantage would be gained from not making a serious effort in clearing out corruption from either house of parliament?

Wouldn’t it be easy for the government’s opponents to prove they weren’t making a concerted effort to clear out the spectre of corruption from either house of parliament?

Do you not feel there is merit in a token measure such as with Lord Watson, while there are cases to investigate and legislation with criteria to debate and put into place?
301

Ewan Randall,

05/02/2009 18:33:04
(#232) – (Peter) – Continued:

Have you not heard before of legislation having amendments applied to them prior to them being enacted; does this not happen a lot within the lifetime of all government?

Do you not already sense that people actually realize this world wide recession has had an effect on their employment prospects?

Why is it you blame Gordon Brown for those naval contracts stalling?

Do you see some invisible hand at work?

Isn’t public investment liquid, and travels through to Scotland and it’s destinations through Holyrood?
302

Ewan Randall,

05/02/2009 18:33:34
(#232) – (Peter) – Continued:

Did Labour actually try to bring down the SNP over the budget or is it more likely as one SNP supporter admitted the other day that the Labour Party believed the budget would be carried without their intervention and were inadvertently caught in the crossfire of a budget they had not intended to back?

Are not the bailouts which the Treasury have been involved in all to do will the immediate effect of the recession on the economy?

Is the building of the third forth crossing at Queensferry anything to do with the recession, or would the money have anything to do with addressing the immediate effects of the recession?

Where exactly are the 18,000 job losses in the banking sector going to occur?

Do you believe the job loses are not necessary in the places which they are to occur, and if so why do you believe that?
303

The Dark Side,

05/02/2009 18:36:39
#345: calling the three main parties "nationalist" is as misleading as so labelling the Greens, simply because Scottish separation is one of their policies.

Nationalism is the SNP's very raison d'etre; indeed, its very future if it loses a separation vote by a large margin would be called into question.

How Nats can compare their nationalism to that of mainstream parties is quite beyond me.
304

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 05/02/2009 18:43:39
#343 Dark side

Henry McLeish (him who helped Labour hold Glenrothes) describes himself as a "nationalist with a small n". Does that make him a wee fascist?
305

Nevsky;,

Moscow 05/02/2009 18:44:06
349 Dark Side#

Would you consider Ghandi a facist?
306

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 05/02/2009 18:44:51
There are lots of wee fascists in the Scottish Labour Party(and a few big ones as well).
307

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 05/02/2009 18:47:39
Was Winston Churchill a wee fascist? No, I think he was a very big one, actually.
308

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 05/02/2009 18:51:39
From fascists to fire hazards. Looks like they have drawn the curtains (or what's left of them) on the Lord Watson thread.
309

The Dark Side,

05/02/2009 18:51:40
#351: freedom fighter in the case of Ghandi.

However, I'd apply the term to your very own Uncle Joe and I do feel that you, as someone from Russia, completely fail to understand the situation of the different national regions within the UK.
310

Miss H,

05/02/2009 19:06:24
349 Independence is the raison d'etre of most countries. Most countries are independent. Most countries have an independence day and celebrate the fact that they are independent every year. Now maybe you don't agree with the concept of the nation state, perhaps you would prefer a single world government or some such thing but if you do you must also recognise that you are very much in the minority.

Maybe you prefer that Scotland should not be independent and should remain a part of the British state. If that is your opinion then fine but you should acknowledge that.

Finally the SNP is far less nationalistic than either the Tories or Labour. Don't think I need to expand on the Tories nationalism. And Labour? 'British Jobs for British Workers'. Who said that again?
311

Nevsky;,

Moscow 05/02/2009 19:07:49
355 Dark#

I am a Scot with a business in Russia actually!

Ghandi believed in Indian independence which makes him a nationalist...which in a Scottish context you equate with facism..care to explain the madness taking place within you nut?


312

Miss H,

05/02/2009 19:13:01
340 No-one could do that because a lot of the policies were the same e.g. more police, cutting business rates.

The things added into the Budget at the behest of other parties are the town centre regeneration fund (Tories and Labour), the home insulation scheme (Green).

The Lib Dems want the SNP to support the Calman Commission in demanding borrowing powers for the Scottish Gov't. That's not formally a part of the Budget but needless to say the SNP will do it.
313

Miss H,

05/02/2009 19:15:27
338 No-one will ever settle the nature nurture debate so why bother even trying. It's a bit of both and who cares anyway. People cannot be 'turned' one way or another due to social conditioning otherwise everyone would be heterosexual wouldn't they.
314

,

05/02/2009 19:24:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
315

Daveunderwater,

05/02/2009 20:25:18
#322

Insignificant exactly, you wouldn't know one end of a cannon from the other

As for fodder, NEEP springs to mind
316

Daveunderwater,

05/02/2009 20:28:29
#333

I see you got the email from Peter, Saor Alba
317

Nevsky;,

Moscow 05/02/2009 20:32:41
361 Traq#

The point is that the 'unionists' do not seem to have recognised that Scotland has changed and will continue to change!

The union is no longer the union of 10 years ago so what does the union actually mean to them..where does it begin and where does it stop?

Personally i don't think they have any idea, they are too busy being 'frightened' at even the prospect of independence and railing and ranting even to consider what unionism means...where it begins and where it ends and what (if anything) it means.

One thing is for sure...give people a taste of power and they will want more and this of course applies more than to anyone to the politicians...this is the fatal flaw of the thinking behind the parliament and the idea that it would 'kill independence'!

10 years ago that the Conservatives would be calling for fiscal autonomy for Scotland would have been unthinkable...that is the great shift in mentality that the parliament has brought about....it has given aspiration and an alternative!

Labour will break apart and London Labour under Balls or Millibland have nothing to offer the Labous supporters in Scotland...what will Kerr and Gray ultimately prefer..the chance to stand on the international stage or as second rate Scottish parliamentarians within the UK.

I think the former!



318

Observer,,

Glasgow 05/02/2009 20:33:33
362 - All forms of consensual sex have been given equal status in law. It hasn't made any difference to people who condemn homosexuals, if anything it has made the discord worse.

But I agree with Miss H. If being gay was a lifestyle choice, it wouldn't be a matter for debate. There wouldn't be any.
319

Scottish 'N British,

05/02/2009 20:41:36
Over 2 hours 35 mins have elapsed and still no clarification.

Surely it can''t be that difficult to separate out......?

Ho hum.

As General MacArthur said, "I shall return"
320

,

05/02/2009 20:51:29
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321

Daveunderwater,

Mount Pleasant 05/02/2009 20:54:15
The Bailout Broon Party is nearly over
As they race like lemmings to the White Cliffs of Dover
Now that the Scottish budget is over
Alex and party are rolling in clover

Alex and John brought things to the boil
While the Greens and Labour burned midnight oil
They couldn't see the SNP foil
That soothed the Lib Dems with Scottish Oil

Then entered apprenticeship battles began
As Iain Gray to London did run
Dod Broon ye'll niver believe what's transpired
Alex and Tavish have reconciled

Dod Broon's chin quivered and juddered
As auld Dod's spine shook and shuddered
Whit have ye deen? Wir a laughin stock
An did ye see Ann Goldie wearin a frock?

She's probably aff tae the Homecomin Doo
It looks as though we'll end up on the buroo
Cameron's Tories are hard on me heels
And we twa look like twa auld feels

322

,

05/02/2009 20:56:57
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Reason:
323

Daveunderwater,

05/02/2009 21:03:32
#347

The liquid running from Westminster, through the artery that runs along the back bone of this country is restricted when it hits the Labour induced cholesterol which infects much of Scotland due to years of neglect.

Mind you the SNP has given Scotland a long overdue shot in the arm ALBA ARTERIES ARE FLOWING ONCE MORE

SAOR ALBA
324

Daveunderwater,

Mount Pleasant 05/02/2009 21:19:42
Scottish or British I'm nivver quite sure
As I traipse ower glen and doon the moor
Fit een will I be? it's an affa decision
Michty me I'm a man on a mission

Nivver the twain shall meet
Just like Haggis and Oxford Street
Some think they're a' abeen ithers
When in fact wir a' mair like Brithers

Bit ye'll always find there is one
Who will try and spile a' the fun
Scottish N British indeed
Awa N Bile yer HEID



325

livilion,

livingston 05/02/2009 21:20:09
The Unionist view has to win every vote, the nationalists only need to win the last one.

Given that every scare story the unionists have played have been shown up as empty and petty, that last vote is getting ever nearer.

btw An SNP majority in Scotland at the next UK general election and there need be no referendum, and with first past the post, not such a high bar as Holyrood to clear.
326

Daveunderwater,

The Fertile Plains o Buchan 05/02/2009 21:28:01
#375

To coin a phrase "Absolute power corrupts, Labour are heading towards absolute oblivion"
327

livilion,

livingston 05/02/2009 21:31:31
Am I the only one who sees Ian Gray's eye tick come on everytime he lies or is put under pressure(same thing) on telly?

Did you get spit roasted by the SNP front bench at FMQ's this week Mr Gray?
Naw (wink, wink, blinkety blink), ah mean't it, (winkity blink), never really wanted a motion of no confidence to make me FM anyway, (blink winky blink). Honest.

OK you don't mock the afflicted, but if his nose started growing it could not undermine him anymore on a tv.
328

Scottish 'N British,

05/02/2009 21:45:57
360

Good start.

What I'm looking for, and as you well know having offered up a couple of suggestions below, are commitments called for by opposition parties for their support.

So, here goes.

1. - Council Tax Freeze-----
2. - Prescriptions----------
3. - Business Rates----------
4. - Infrastructure---------
5. - 1,000 More Police------
6. - Home Insulation-------- Greens
7. - New Apprenticeships----
8. - NHS Spend--------------
9. - Affordable Housing-----
10. - Town Centre Renewal---- Tory/Labour
11. - Elderly Personal Care--

Feel free too complete. You may find 3,5 and 7 are fairly easy.



329

Daveunderwater,

Silver City Black Gold 05/02/2009 21:58:21
# 381

Item 10 on the SNP Budget

Has Margo changed allegiance?

BTW

Sir Ian Wood has just donated £20,000,000 to plant a new garden at Union Terrace Gardens Aberdeen
330

Scottish 'N British,

05/02/2009 22:01:35
377

Poet Laureate you are not.

That said, I'm touched, genuinely, to think that you', Dave frae under some watter spent time tap tap tapping away on yer wee keyboard in some slavish devotion to me.

I have to say I didn't understand much of it. But who cares. I still liked it. Fanx.

Serious question now, andbe honest,

Do you think I should start up a Fan Club?
You could run it for me., yeah?


Eat yer heart oot, Dave beckham.
331

Scunner,

Aberdeen 05/02/2009 22:02:04
Green Party GIRFUY!!
332

Daveunderwater,

05/02/2009 22:22:26
David Beckham?
We all know who made him his fortune
Yet another Alex from Scotland
LOL

More a bard than laureate, don't you fink?


333

Daveunderwater,

Auchter Turra 05/02/2009 22:36:03
Just did some research, I see Dave Cameron is of Scottish parentage.

Yet an other Scottish PM waiting in the wings

Jings!! Or should the be Jingo!

Sir Alex Ferguson the most successful British Manager of all time, although Bill Shankly had a good run a while back at Liverpool. He had a huge fan club in fact I'm sure there is bronze statue of Mr Shankly near Anfield.

Let's not forget Brian Clough I see his son is at the helm at Derby County

BTW what was the result with RFC v AC Milan the other night? Wasn'y Beckham playin at Ibrox n at?




334

Daveunderwater,

Brigadoon 05/02/2009 22:52:19
Poet laureate I am not
Although the lines witin me trot
An canter on to yonder blog
A ray of sun amongst the fog

I never align my work with Chaucer
I'd rather sit with cup and saucer
And have a lovely cuppa tea
With pen and paper at my knee

Laurels are for some to rest on
But since I've never once been pressed on
Being one who seems to shirk
I labour on and embrace wirk!

335

Daveunderwater,

Souter Johnny's Inn 05/02/2009 23:00:32
An excellent choice of verse, quite moving and fitting for a young life lost.



336

Daveunderwater,

Awa wae the excise man! 05/02/2009 23:04:23
The Scots Makar is the unpaid equivalent of a poet laureate to represent and promote poetry in Scotland. On 16 February 2004, Professor Edwin Morgan was named to the post. Morgan is also known as the "Poet Laureate of Glasgow."[1]
337

Daveunderwater,

A farm cottage near the River Doon 05/02/2009 23:08:07
The work of the Makars of the fifteenth and early sixteenth centuries was in part marked out by an adoption in vernacular languages of the new and greater variety in metrics and prosody current across Europe after the influence of such figures as Dante and Petrarch and similar to the route which Chaucer followed in England. Their work is usually distinguished from the work of earlier Scottish writers such as Barbour and Wyntoun who wrote romance and chronicle verse in octosyllabic couplets and it also perhaps marked something of a departure from the medieval alliterative or troubador traditions; but one characteristic of poetry by the Makars is that features from all of these various traditions, such as strong alliteration and swift narration, continued to be a distinctive influence.
338

Daveunderwater,

05/02/2009 23:15:52
Beneath the sooth side o a craigy bield,
Where crystal springs their halesome waters yield,
Twa youthfu shepherds on the gowans lay,
Tentin their flocks ae bonny morn o Mey.
Puir Roger granes, till hollow echoes ring;
But blyther Patie likes to lauch an sing.

A Ramsay
339

Daveunderwater,

Carryin coals tae Kircaldy 05/02/2009 23:23:59
A miner's life was not a happy one, especially during Thatcher's era.
A few o the lads offshore in the North Sea started aff doon the pits, they took Maggie's advice and moved to where the work is. Still plenty work up here, lowest unemployment in the UK in Aberdeen.
340

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

05/02/2009 23:26:08
285Duncan in Edinburgh, 05/02/2009 15:17:53
What an astonishing silence from all sides in response to the nasty, personal homophobia from John George Mackay in #241 and #249. I would have hoped such small-minded bigotry would be condemned by his compatriots in the SNP ranks, but apparently not.

Centre-left party? Aye, right.285Duncan in Edinburgh, 05/02/2009 15:17:53
What an astonishing silence from all sides in response to the nasty, personal homophobia from John George Mackay in #241 and #249. I would have hoped such small-minded bigotry would be condemned by his compatriots in the SNP ranks, but apparently not.

Centre-left party? Aye, right.

---------------------

I was working out of office today and missed the drama about your flavour of sexuality. I assume it was some rant about gays being bad or something like that.

Duncan for your reassurance and hopefully amusement, I dislike you equally with all the other unionist posters who login each day, to defend the indefensible running of the country into the ground, by goons and buffoons of the Labour party in London.

I do not differentiate between the methods that unionists use to stick it to the scottish electorate. Please understand any references about back stabbing and living on your knees are purely political and bear no homophobic undertones.

I am not concerned about so called 'unholy Unions' just the political one with westminster.







341

Daveunderwater,

05/02/2009 23:28:46
Been to Ayr a few times and on both occasions paid homage to The Bard at Burn's Cottage, my last visit was on the way to Staranraer a few years back en route to Dubs.
342

Daveunderwater,

05/02/2009 23:31:23
#402

Ignore bad behaviour, praise good...

Each to their own
343

Ewan Randall,

05/02/2009 23:55:41
(#372) – (Daveunderwater) – Were you aware that cholesterol is important as a constituent of cell membranes and a precursor to steroid hormones?

Were you also aware that self-neglect and the way we feed ourselves can cause a build up of cholesterol in our bloodstream and can influence the pathogenesis of certain conditions?

Has the SNP given Scotland a long overdue shot in the arm?

Are you hoping for Scotland’s wound to heal?

Maybe a transfusion of new blood is in order to revive her once again?
344

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

06/02/2009 00:04:14
#406 Ewan

Another day, more questions....yawn
345

Ewan Randall,

06/02/2009 01:02:46
(#405) - (Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,) -Have I ever told you that my questions are not just for to gather information,but for others to contemplate the subject matter to a higher degree?
346

John Kay,

Mount Coolum 06/02/2009 10:09:35
None of you dick head Scots are fair dinkum - when are you going to waken up and realise that you are the masters of your own destiny - Salmond ,James Bond etc. they are all a big joke - get some proven business men to look after you - there are plenty around just keep away from women and anyone who's been associated with banks !!
347

George Coutts,

07/02/2009 22:11:26
let me be the last to say it.
Well done all you who voted for the excelent Budget worked out by John and co.
Like I say never give up thre is a God up there thank Christ.

 

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