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SNP raises doubts on Glenrothes as inquiry launched into by-election

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Published Date: 04 February 2009
AN INDEPENDENT inquiry has been launched into the loss of important documents from the Glenrothes by-election.
The SNP has raised concerns after it was revealed the marked voter register from last November's poll had gone missing from the sheriff clerk's office in Kirkcaldy. These papers show who came out to vote.

The by-election was surprisingly won by Labour by a margin of almost 7,000 votes, and while the SNP is not contesting the result, it has said the loss of the register casts a shadow over the fairness of the poll.

The Scotsman understands the party has not ruled out taking the issue further.

Question marks had already been raised over the turnout at the by-election – it was, unusually, much higher than in the general election – and the number of postal votes, which was four times the average.

By law, the marked register is supposed to be available a week after an election and kept for a year. Its loss can result in a fine of £5,000 for the person responsible.

The SNP asked for the papers on 19 November, but the sheriff clerk's office, which signed for their delivery, has now admitted they have gone missing.

Tricia Marwick, the Nationalist MSP for Central Fife, said the papers must have been lost very soon after they arrived at the sheriff clerk's office. She said: "Without these records, there is no evidence of either a fair or unfair election. This undermines the confidence of everyone who took part.

"It is almost beyond belief that a by-election which attracted media coverage throughout the UK, which delivered such a surprise result and had a much higher turn-out than anticipated, now has no records to show who actually voted."

Her call for an inquiry has been accepted by the Scottish Court Service, which has apologised for the mistake.

Eleanor Emberson, its chief executive, said: "It is important for all concerned to establish what happened to the marked register.

"We know that we still hold other documentation relating to the Glenrothes by-election, but this register is missing."

The Electoral Commission has not ruled out holding an inquiry into what happened. Andy O'Neill, the head of its office in Scotland, said he was seriously concerned about the loss. However, he refused to say whether the issue would feature in the commission's report into the by-election.

He said he hoped new election laws being brought in may help returning officers – usually the chief executive of the local council – who are given the job of keeping the registers.

In 2007, there were similar problems in South Ayrshire, which led the Labour MP Brian Donohoe to call for the proposed change in the law. There have also been similar problems in local authority elections in Renfrewshire.

Mr O'Neill said: "Access to the marked register by candidates and agents is an important part of the democratic process in ensuring the transparency of an election. Every step should be taken so this does not happen again."

However, Labour, whose candidate, Lindsay Roy, won the by-election, has accused the SNP of being paranoid and pointed out that the sheriff clerk's office, which lost the register, was an arm of the Scottish Government run by the Nationalists.

Mr Roy said: "I am very surprised that the local court has lost the names of people who voted. Once again, the SNP are at the centre of a scandal about the loss of personal data, and I do think the call for an investigation is important."

He added: "That said, claims that the election was unfair are a distraction. I would be delighted to sit with Ms Marwick and watch the ballot papers being recounted, but the reality is that local people voted Labour."


Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 04 February 2009 2:00 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Glenrothes by-election
 
1

Nevsky;,

Moscow 03/02/2009 23:59:08
Papers held in the records office of the sherrif clerk simply do not dissapear!

Why has it taken two and a half months since the initial request for this to come to light?

The registers were clearly supposed to be available 1 week after the election?

If the head of the electoral commission is 'seriously concerned' then this matter must be fully investigated.

Labour will rue the day if they have tampered with the votes and then the registers!
2

Nevsky;,

Moscow 04/02/2009 00:00:07
Four times the average postal vote? When has Labour ever in Scotland got it's vote out to such an extent...this stinks!
3

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/02/2009 00:09:45
We don't know what happened. We know the register from the SNP Council who ran the election was delivered to the Court. What happens after that is off the radar. Quite frankly I see the whole issue as being one that is designed to undermine the Scottish Parliamentry system. I think the current conspiracy theories posted so far are silly. I don't think it's silly to think that there are vested interests in the media who would wish to portray Scotland as a country unable to run a bath. That is the agenda.

I think it was probably incompetence that destroyed these records. I also think there are those that would use this issue as proof that we are too small, stupid, and prone to paranoia to run our own country.

But roll on the conspiracy theories.....
4

Tris,

04/02/2009 00:18:11
# 1 and 2...... I'm with you totally on this. I have no idea whether there is something suspicious going on, but it wants investigating, and seriously... and moreover independently of the council or the Sheriff's Office.

If our elections are not above board and cannot be proved to be above board, then we need the next ones to be supervised by the UN or the EU, so that we can have confidence in them.
5

Marga,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 00:29:42
Agreed as to the seriousness. And not just the loss of the register raises eyebrows: see on another thread tonight from Webwise for the other unusual element:

"A 1200 drop in voter turnout, yet an increase of almost 3000 postal votes issued". (Nearly double).

It's strange to say the least.
6

Nevsky;,

Moscow 04/02/2009 00:30:15
Contrary to what was earlier reported that they were accidentally disposed of it now seems that this was not true and that they have actually gone missing:

'A spokesman for the Scottish Court Service said the organisation was "instigating an external investigation into the circumstances of the missing marked electoral register". When asked if the document had been disposed of as confidential waste he added that there had been no trace of it at the courthouse.'
7

subrosa,

04/02/2009 00:30:31
Wasn't Lindsay Roy classes as one of the best head teachers in Scotland? The man's comments just show how unsuitable he is for the position of MP. Hopefully he was just reading his No 10 propaganda sheet because, if not, then the folk of Glenrothes aren't going to get much sense from him.

Than again, you get for you vote for ...
8

,

04/02/2009 00:31:54
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9

subrosa,

04/02/2009 00:32:28
Ooops classes should read 'classed'. Apologies.
10

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

04/02/2009 00:34:47
Electoral fraud is now common in elections in Scotland. It is part of the general moral collapse with our so-called democracy under New Labour. This must be investigated as it was such an important by-election as it was crucial to the image and survival of the prime minister. At his disposal is the civil service and the secret state. There are serious questions over the number of postal votes which ran into many thousands more than usual. This was worrying and the loss of this register compounds this concern.

Access to this document is part of our democratic rights. You can't say such access is "not important" as Labour's Roy worryingly said.

We should be demanding our democratic rights and now allow them to slip away because it suits the hegemony of a political party who benefit from these democratic deficiencies.
11

,

04/02/2009 00:35:49
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12

,

04/02/2009 00:36:03
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13

,

04/02/2009 00:36:31
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14

Stan Butler,

04/02/2009 00:38:11

There must be an immediate investigation by the United Nations. Or Interpol if the United Nations is too busy. Failing that by International Rescue or The A Team.

15

Nevsky;,

Moscow 04/02/2009 00:40:10
From the BBC yesterday:

'Fife Council said it had a receipt proving the authority handed the electoral registers over to the sheriff clerk at Kirkcaldy.'

But the Sherrif claims they have 'no trace' of it?

So either a forged receipt and dumped or handed over and dumped!

You don't hand over documents that require a receipt and retention under Governmental law only for the recipient to chuck them in a bin!

No chance!
16

Arthur G,

Glasgow 04/02/2009 00:46:17
#3

"..there are those that would use this issue as proof that we are too small, stupid, and prone to paranoia to run our own country..."

Fortunately, in the end, it will be the voting public of Scotland who will decide who runs our country, independant or not.

17

Stan Butler,

04/02/2009 00:47:29

MaCatskill must resign immediately.

It's his department that's responsible.
18

,

04/02/2009 00:47:54
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19

,

04/02/2009 00:49:31
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20

Stan Butler,

04/02/2009 00:49:44

Why does no one spell it indepedint?

Why is it always independant?

Doesn't independint sound more Scottish than independant?

21

Stan Butler,

04/02/2009 00:52:05
#20 Sam The Man The snp Fear Most,

'DONATE ONLY TO BRITISH CHARITY THAT STAYS IN THE UK.'

Better still, don't donate at all!

Look after yourself first!

22

,

04/02/2009 00:52:23
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23

Stan Butler,

04/02/2009 00:54:07
#19 Traquir , Alba,

How do you expect anyone to take you seriously when you say Mr T is boring?

Honestly!
24

,

04/02/2009 00:55:36
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25

,

04/02/2009 00:56:06
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26

Wynn,

GLASGOW 04/02/2009 00:58:36
Good on yer OBSERVER...

Ignorance and stupidity are the driving forces behind conspiracy theories...

Our stupidity is in our genes....

but our ignorance comes from our media.




27

,

04/02/2009 00:58:57
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28

Edward,

04/02/2009 01:02:19
Mr Roy said "I am very surprised that the local court has lost the names of people who voted. Once again, the SNP are at the centre of a scandal about the loss of personal data and I do think the call for an investigation is important."
That is so funny, really is,just about p*ssed myself when I read that! Rectum Roy is clearly a complete idiot!, Trolling out what he is told to say. Its the SNP thats asked for an investigation as the papers have been lost by the Sherriffs dept.The party that looses time and time again Data, is Labour, or doesnt Rectum Roy know that? Dumb has joined Dumber inLondon apparently
29

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 01:05:12


"but where have Glenrothes by-election papers gone?"

Don't Worry! and I want my Reward!

I have just had the privilege of seeing one of these mystery UFO's landing, Knowing it was Charles Linskaill that spotted them, these 'Little-Green-Men' got out of their UFO and communicated with me!

They told me, that they took them, helped by Lord Lucan, this was to prevent any embarrassment's to the SNP.


30

Edward,

04/02/2009 01:07:07
Labour's record on postal voting fraud in the West Midlands is well known. There has been suspicion tht they have been doing the same elsewhere. I would certainly be curious to know why that there is a 1200 drop in voter turn out, but postal ballots shot up by 3000! very strange
31

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 01:07:16



PAY-UP! I Tell You!


32

Edward,

04/02/2009 01:17:30
This story has made it onto the Guy Fawkes blog, where consensus of opinion is that Glenrothes postal voting caper is a dry run for the General Election
33

Nevsky;,

Moscow 04/02/2009 01:21:50
Great news, if you are on parole you can attend the house of Lords:

Lord Watson, a former Labour MP, was jailed for 16 months in September 2005 after setting fire to curtains in a hotel during a drunken incident.

However, he was released from prison early in May 2006 and has since claimed up to £308 a day in House of Lords expenses while on probation.

The disclosure will add to the growing pressure for Lords reform to stop convicted criminals and those found to have broken Parliamentary rules from continuing to sit as peers.

Since leaving prison, Lord Watson has claimed a total of about £100,000 in expenses despite voting on only about a quarter of the days he was attending. He has spoken only five times in the past year and has not put down a single written question.
34

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 01:23:44


Ladies & gentlemen of the world, it is my utmost privilege to announc to
You that these little green men actually do exist, for they are part of the
Eternal past and venture from all regions of our galaxy to find homage in
Our earths center. governments of the world have been very good at
Concealing these little visitors and preparing the public with loving movies
And pleasent melodies.
Controlled media as to cushion the arrival of our little friends. you see,
Throughout history many people have claimed to see strange lights in the
Sky.

Well, the truth of the matter is that these light, and beings, will
Only reveal themselves to those who are pure of heart, for these enlightened
Aliens leave permanent imprinted information on the psyche of those chosen
Human only to be revealed to our deteriorating planet at the point in which
Our civilization shall enter the new age of light without heat.


35

subrosa,

04/02/2009 01:26:05
# 13 Traquir, is that your blog?

36

,

04/02/2009 01:34:03
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37

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 01:41:09
I'm fed up of hearing from "Mr Roy" with regard to this matter. We'd get a lot more sense out of his famous sidekick, Basil Brush.
38

Nevsky;,

Moscow 04/02/2009 01:43:01
38 Rev#

Here he is just before his election:

http://www.oliver1968.co.uk/oliver38B.jpg
39

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 01:45:50


Well if the Scottish Government, think that stopping a 21year old, who have maybe voted for them, fought in a War, has a good job, married with Children, and a Mortgage, is the way forward, the Scottish Government are deluded!

None the Wonder, They are loosing Votes!

None the Wonder, Their Budget was Thrown out!

None the Wonder, They Lost Glenrothes!

None the Wonder, None the Wonder!

If this is the SNP at their best, it IS-OF, NO-WONDER, Scotland will never be independent!

So "the loss of important documents", is really of no concern!

40

Dark Lochnagar,

Symington 04/02/2009 01:45:59
Rufus must have been running around like a blue @rsed fly to register all these postal votes.
41

fifeis great,

Kirkcaldy 04/02/2009 01:49:38
So , let me get this right, an SNP administration loose the records and it's Labours fault, more like the SNP lost it and are trying to discredit the Labour party because they lost big time. We need a full inquiry into the local run SNP administrations handling of this, a full public judicial inquiry none the less will do.
42

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 01:51:11


Forgot to say!

"So "the loss of important documents", is really of no concern!"

**And I bet you anything, will be treated as the likes!**


43

Gorach,

doon the road 04/02/2009 01:52:06
Aye,something stinks....
44

Scottish 'N British,

04/02/2009 01:57:43
Lindsay Roy is correct to back an investigation. Yet another inquiry, a damning indictment into Eck's managemnent of Scotland.

As the victor, Roy's call is pertinent. Not for the crushing reason that this office, after all, is "an arm of the SNPO-run Scottish Government" itself, but because this makes a mockery of democracy.

Just like the inquiry into lies telling into SNP ministers' (note more than mone) statements.

Is Wee Davie hame frae his hols yet....

45

drunken proffet,

Tassy 04/02/2009 02:04:14
I am going to wait until they bring out the book. "How to run an election. Labour party tactics in the 21st Century." I reckon it would be nail biting stuff. Maybe Jeffrey Archer would give it a go, it does not need to be too factual.
46

subrosa,

04/02/2009 02:07:37
# 37 Traquir

Indeed it is. Was just today on the FreeScots group that I was given the link.
47

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

04/02/2009 02:17:45
'The question of missing records is irrelevant in the context of the outcome of the election in Glenrothes. What’s done is done. '

Hmm, so what you're saying is that you should be allowed to cheat elections?
48

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 02:18:52



Gorach,doon the road ~44,

The 'Deodorant's' has already been placed!

Cover-Up, it is Now!, Never Mind this News of what has happened, the 'Deodorant' will make, none the wiser!

49

Embra Don,

04/02/2009 02:44:56
So Sam and Stan are tonight's iltelectual unionist debate wreckers.
50

Scottish 'N British,

04/02/2009 02:48:43
48

And here, children, in paragraphs 2 and 3, are definitions of irony.

Question:

Why, if the SNP/Separatrist agenda is so popular, doesn't the party start its own paper?

Answer:

Well it did. And closed within weeks. Which is why Separatists are here, yes?

Perhaps you're the chap to take this issue forward and start another publication.

Given recent events you could call it The Enquirer (or is that Inquirer?)




lol
51

Embra Don,

04/02/2009 02:52:22
It would be interesting to know if there was anyone, particularly in Leven or Methil who turned up to vote and found that their name had already been scored through.
52

,

04/02/2009 02:53:34
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53

Scottish 'N British,

04/02/2009 03:04:10
54

Disappointing reply.

Now I understand why you rely so much on tinyurl...
54

Scottish 'N British,

04/02/2009 03:06:44
54

Thoughts on a Separatiust daily?

Personal thoughts only, if you don't mind.
That means NO tinyurl reply....
55

,

04/02/2009 03:11:39
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56

Forward not Back,

04/02/2009 03:19:00
Hmmm, well given that Brown is trying to run the economy in a similar fashion to Robert Mugabe, he might as well try electioneering Mugabe style too!
57

,

04/02/2009 03:47:07
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58

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 04/02/2009 03:54:20
Did the Sheriff's Clerk's Office put it on a CD and send it off somewhere by courier??

Conspiracy Theories?? Always the first thing to be said about them is that they are false. But what you find is there is a grain of truth somewhere. In this case there is ample evidence of Labour fraud elsewhere, so why not in Glenrothes? This was a must win for Maggie Brown, and he would have been kicked out off office by his loyal party members if Labour had lost.

As the SNP have said, I don't believe it had any effect on the result, but the high turn-out is probably the result of a high profile contest. It also doesn't detract that the SNP vote increases dramatically.
59

Castaway™ ,

04/02/2009 04:16:49
6 Nov 2008-Glenrothes by-election.
13 Nov 2008-By law, the marked electoral register is supposed to be available a week after an election.
19 Nov 2008-The SNP asked the sheriff clerk's office for the papers.
Dec 2008 to Jan 2009-The SNP say they asked several times for the papers.
30 Jan 2009-It was finally admitted on that the records were missing.
6 Nov 2009-By law, the marked electoral register is to be kept by the sheriff clerk for that electoral area for a year after an election.
60

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

04/02/2009 04:19:08
I am a skeptic, but it is a simple fallacy to say that 'all conspiracy theories are false'. That would mean that there had never been any conspiracies whilst clearly there has been; the gunpowder plot just to give a rather arbitrary example.

the disappearance of this register is not any proof of wrong doing, but is quite a suggestive fact.

It's ironic that people regard the emergence of a piece of evidence as making it LESS likely that there was any wrongdoing, but of course it will only be if any more evidence arrives that we might be able to create a stronger case.

I don't think that the election should be investigated for cheating at this stage-but I do think that the disappearance of this register should be investigated.
61

donald,

glasgow 04/02/2009 04:53:14
As if Labour's Fiddlers rally would do such a thing.
62

Queen D,

Glasgow 04/02/2009 06:02:02
You can sneer and bandy words about all you like, BUT this is a serious error/mess.
All elections must be seen to be fair and above board or they are worthless.
After the debacle last May , with spoiled papers, ruined papers and counting machines that did'nt, after the "inquiry" by the well paid Canadian "expert", surely we as a nation have a right to be curious/suspicious of anything in any election anywhere regardless of result?
I do think that the time has come for UN observers ,preferably from the Nordic countries being mindful of the Mugabe elections and their observers (Blind Pugh and co)
63

Unelectedbythepeople,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 06:15:02
More Labour Sleeze

michaelchoo30@gmail.com

64

,

04/02/2009 06:26:33
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65

Angleland Isover,

04/02/2009 06:40:18
Theirs so much sleaze and corruption in the labour party that people are becoming desensitised to how low they will stoop to maintain power. If found out they will still have their unionist core voters. Sad but true of unionists.
66

The Tin Man,

04/02/2009 06:41:03
Is Kenny McAskill going to shoulder the responsibility for this, or blame his employees? The responsible government minister is usally blamed for data losses...
67

fifeis great,

Kirkcaldy 04/02/2009 06:58:45
This is more like a local snp council who's leader lost big time trying deflect attention, ask the snp where the records have been dumped? in the skips at den road recycling centre? SNP sleaze party you are in chargre you are responsible you can't blame a party who is not in power for your sleaze, where are the records Peter?
68

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 04/02/2009 07:02:36
So Andy Mc Niell says that this is alright, untill the next time. What happenned this time??????????????????
69

Fecker,

04/02/2009 07:04:04
Labour are great at this, you should have seen what went on in Lanarkshire in the labour party when they were voting to decide on who would stand form them in the scottish parliament elections. New members joining, their subscriptions paid by the one cheque, people "bussed" to and from the meeting where the vote was held and that was the only time these "labour party members" were ever seen at any meeting. The following year they did not renew their membership, funny that
70

Walter Ego,

Durness 04/02/2009 07:06:16
As one of Salmond's departments (and one of his SNP run Councils) has phucked this up, he must resign. Scotland deserves better, far better.
71

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 04/02/2009 07:10:44
Who is this guy Mr Roy, he does not wish to have an investigation into DEMOCRACY AND HONESTY. Have a nice day...............
72

Grahamski,

Falkirk 04/02/2009 07:11:33
Talk about your flabber being gasted. The three questions which need answered by all the tartan David Ickes out there are: who was responsible for running the election - answer the local council, secondly which government minister is responsible for the Scottish Court Service - answer Mr K. MacAskill.
And last but not least what political party joins those dots? Answer the SNP.
You know the nats are losing the plot when they start whispering poison and conspiracy theories about themselves.
Next the nutty nats will be demanding an inquiry into the fraudulent claims made by the advocates of the discredited SFT - how could they get away with promising the Scottish people a policy which didn't actually exist....obviously this is the Labour Party's fault....
73

Grahamski,

Falkirk 04/02/2009 07:14:41
72
...and what has that got to do with a SNP-controlled council and a department overseen by an SNP minister making a pig's ear of storing some documents?
74

fifeis great,

Kirkcaldy 04/02/2009 07:14:59
SNP leader Peter Grant where are the records? they were in your council's hands, your loss, your responsibility, your chance to resign.
75

IanAyr,

Ayr 04/02/2009 07:18:32
Num 77,
Rubbish, they were in the hands of the Sheriffs office, not the Council
76

 sm753,

04/02/2009 07:24:40
SOUR
























GRAPES
77

fifeis great,

Kirkcaldy 04/02/2009 07:25:17
77,
SNP is responsible for council, is responsible for the sheriff's office, is responsible for misplacing voting records, stand up Peter Grant and resign.
78

Grahamski,

Falkirk 04/02/2009 07:25:34
78
And who is responsible for the sheriff's office?
Come on down, Kenny MacAskill... between them the SNP council and the SNP minister have dropped the ball on this one and the hilarious thing is that all the swivel-eyed psycho nats have missed this small but crucial point, whatever way you look at it this comes back to a SNP door.....
79

Stan Butler,

04/02/2009 07:28:33
#65 20th Century boy

FFS

You're the sort of person who writes letters to the Sunday Post, aren't you?
80

Royster,

04/02/2009 07:29:34
Holyrood clearly can run things. Close it down.
81

Russell M,

Stirling 04/02/2009 07:30:05
Democracy -- British Style -- Ah but I contradict myself.

Move along, there's nothing to see here.

To those who protest 'there is no conspiricy' does it pass the "British Standard (BS) Duck Test?" i.e. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
82

Wardog™,

04/02/2009 07:30:51

I understand that a register can be reformed as each indvividual vote should havea barcode that identifies the voter, this is what caught out the Labour voting fraud in Bradford, Peterborough, Slough and Birmingham.

Last November just after the Glenrothes Elecation, the Labour party blocked opposition amendments designed to combat electoral fraud.

The amendments for the political parties and elections bill would enforce voter registration and require voters to prove their identity at polling stations through ID or a bank card previous to voting.

If something happened here, whether Labourd directed or not, all hell would break loose. The circumstances of a very high turnout and an huge increase in postal votes does not bode well under these circumstances.

This must be investigated

83

Wardog™,

04/02/2009 07:31:25
79. RAT

















TLED
84

Longdirk Maceth,

NZ 04/02/2009 07:32:05
Still baying at the moon Grahamski?


85

Wardog™,

04/02/2009 07:36:06


75. The SFT is actually delivering already, two hub projects in the north and the south which togather represent £30Million of sped, the first school is due of the blocks this spring.

There is now also a MAJORITY in the parliament to haveborrowing powers for the Parliament.

Brick by Brick the unionist wall is being dismantled.

The Glenrothes voting register might just yet prove to be the biggest wrecking ball.

I sincerely hope no-one has fiddled with the postal vote system Grahamski



86

fifeis great,

Kirkcaldy 04/02/2009 07:37:18
There should be an investigation of the SNP administration's handling of this, Labour are not in power,SNP are in power in the local council, and in the justice department responsible for the sheriff's office, between them they have lost the voting records, repeat SNP fault.
87

Wardog™,

04/02/2009 07:42:18

89. Everyone involved will be include din the investigation, that is what the SNP is called for you imbecile.

Good to see Labour Supporters know the result before the inquiry.

Did they know the result before the election?


There were a lot of stunned faces..... I think they might have overegged it don't you.

88

Number 6,

Germany 04/02/2009 07:42:58
Let's clear this wretched Labour party out of Scottish politics once and for all.

The labour flocks can be herded down to South Britain if they can't face their country becoming independent.

What we can't have is any more Labour councillors, MPs
or Lords hoovering up cash when they should be running the country. The stealing of tax-payer's money by Labour's Glasgow councillors and previous MPs must be brought to a halt, even if their supporters think it's fine.

Should the south british by some miracle, not exterminate Labour at the next election, then their elected members will empty the borrowed coffers into their own pockets at an even faster rate. Safe in the knowledge their zombie like supporters STILL don't get it, or care.

Enough of this Banana republic type sleaze and corruption. Election rigging is only the start.
89

Grahamski,

Falkirk 04/02/2009 07:43:31
88
Oh behave Wardog,
It was always a matter of time before the rabid conspiracy theorists would turn on themselves. We now have the truly hilarious spectacle of the psycho nats spreading rumours about themselves. 'Don't trust us, we couldnae run a menoge', they whisper.
I couldn't agree more, however your contention that a SNP SNAFU will precipitate the decline of the union is interesting. I take it you are working on the Blazing Saddles principle of Mr Salmond holding a gun to his head and declaring, 'One move and the nat gets it'?
90

Nevsky;,

Moscow 04/02/2009 07:48:17
It stems instead from a much more personal concern of Mr Brown – that he appears as a Scottish outsider in what is still, fundamentally, an English nation. The rise in the fortunes of the Scottish National Party, leading to a future vote on secession, had only added to Mr Brown's sense of insecurity, as the prospect seemed to increase of his being entirely disenfranchised from Westminster.
Got to admire the intelligence of some of the English, this from Dominic Lawson...seems they loath the unionists Scots:

To counter this, Mr Brown obsessively cloaked his every utterance with the Union Flag, and issued edicts that there should be a Bank Holiday – and even an entire museum – to celebrate "Britishness". Indeed, that first speech of his to the Labour party conference as leader contained over 50 mentions of the words "British" or "Britishness". It was not racist, but it was desperately embarrassing to witness.
91

Thrawn,

UK 04/02/2009 07:49:26
Securing a postal vote in the past was very hard and one had to give a very good reason, e.g. one's work took one out of the country on polling day, to obtain one.

Today, with turnouts so low, the government has made postal voting an option in an attempt to increase the number of votes cast, and many incidents of malpractice - I'm not saying in the case of Glenrothes - have been recorded.

Tighter conditions should be reintroduced for postal voting, and the fit and able, if they do care about voting, should make the short journey to the polling station and record their vote there.

This matter is probably one of incompetence but should be investigated in order to set the record straight.
92

Nevsky;,

Moscow 04/02/2009 07:49:52
Sorry mistake in first para....must make the unionists cringe this type of thing being openly talked about in London....have you all no shame?


'It stems instead from a much more personal concern of Mr Brown – that he appears as a Scottish outsider in what is still, fundamentally, an English nation. The rise in the fortunes of the Scottish National Party, leading to a future vote on secession, had only added to Mr Brown's sense of insecurity, as the prospect seemed to increase of his being entirely disenfranchised from Westminster.

To counter this, Mr Brown obsessively cloaked his every utterance with the Union Flag, and issued edicts that there should be a Bank Holiday – and even an entire museum – to celebrate "Britishness". Indeed, that first speech of his to the Labour party conference as leader contained over 50 mentions of the words "British" or "Britishness". It was not racist, but it was desperately embarrassing to witness.'
93

fifeis great,

Kirkcaldy 04/02/2009 07:50:40
90
as usual, when you are looking shaky and in the wrong use abuse, the lowest form of witt.Good to see SNP party hacks and party central true to form. Look who is deciding the outcme on here, party trolls from SNP.
94

,

04/02/2009 07:51:08
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95

Queen D,

Glasgow 04/02/2009 07:59:18
Utterly risible comment from Mr Roy.
I do hope he does not own the words but was given them by some cack hande Labour spin doctor.
Mr Roy knows that it is'nt an SNP scandal and a man of integrity and honesty would want these registers found,to allay doubts from all sides.
96

Stan Butler,

04/02/2009 07:59:33

MaCatskill must go!!!
97

cabrach loon,

inverness 04/02/2009 08:01:40
Two relevant facts, one that any loss like this must be solved and the penalty paid by the responsible person. Two Mr. Roy's attitude has a bad taste and smell and sadlky fails to impress, he appears to be a blend of old and nulabour - not a nice mix. He should have a very definite desire toi back the SNP in this and clear himself of any mud.
WE all know mud sticks and some smells.
At present the Sherrif's office? needs to be investigated thoroughly, stolen or just borrowed - I hope they mysteriously resurface pdq.
98

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 08:02:43
#3 Observer,,
Glasgow 04/02/2009 00:09:45
"Quite frankly I see the whole issue as being one that is designed to undermine the Scottish Parliamentary system."
This election was run from Westminster, the Scottish Parliament does not even run its own elections.
99

EdwinB,

Glasgow 04/02/2009 08:04:28
Oh for goodness sake. It seems a matter of clerical incompetence. People should hold their fire until receipts are tracked down and statements made. As Observer says from the other side of the fence, the conspiracy babbling makes us all look bad. And I don't think you have to look for spooks to find the reason for it.

As for the result, didn't one of the SNP people say at the time that he or she had seen Labour voters coming out who had not voted for years? That seemed to explain it for me. Whether Unionist, Old Labour or faithful Broons they come out to vote Labour - and the SNP lost. Get over it.





100

Grahamski,

Falkirk 04/02/2009 08:06:27
98
This very much IS a SNP scandal. The body responsible for running this election was the SNP-controlled local authority and the government minister responsible for the storage of these documents is Kenny MacAskill.
The fact that Tricia Marwick feels she can blame anybody else just shows how detached your average SNP MSP is from reality.
As a party the SNP's stock in trade is grievances and smears. The logical extension of this is when you can't girn or smear your opponents, do it to yourself. Madness.
101

LEAL,

04/02/2009 08:07:09
There is probably a perfectly reasonable explanation as to why the postal vote was so high in Glenrothes and if it is going to make such a difference to turnout perhaps we should consider postal-only voting.It worries me that so many Labour supporters consider the disappearance of the registers to be such a trivial matter.
102

Stan Butler,

04/02/2009 08:07:38

Maybe it was MI5, or MI6 or MFI what done it.

Why don't the SNP get their very own special agent on the job?

I refer of course to the one, the only, Sir Sean Connery.

Surely all those years playing Her Majesty's bestest ever secret agent can now be put to good use in the service of his own dear wee country (Scotland, that is, not The Bahamas, just because he chooses to live there doesn't mean he prefers it to Scotland).

103

Stan Butler,

04/02/2009 08:09:42
#102 EdwinB

Quisling.

104

Grahamski,

Falkirk 04/02/2009 08:10:28
100
So, the SNP swivel-eyed brigade make a seies of allegations they can't substatiate and so everybody has got to get into the gutter with them?
Err, no.
Why didn't Ms Marwick simply contact the council (that would be SNP council) and ask them what on earth is going on.
She could of course have a quite word with the minister responsible for storing the documents, he is in her party after all.
Instead she goes off barking at the moon that they're all out to get her....they would the SNP, would they?
105

Grahamski,

Falkirk 04/02/2009 08:12:00
104
Who considers it trivial? I haven't read anyone trivialisng thsi issue. Just laughing at the psycho nats shooting theselves in the foot....
106

Grahamski,

Falkirk 04/02/2009 08:13:31
101
Oh ya dancer - the nats lose the documents then blame London. Priceless.
107

TWC,

04/02/2009 08:13:47
The papers were received by the Sheriff's office so this has nothing to do with the political parties. The fact that troubles me is that I see a post here which suggests that the papers have been missing for two and a half months.
They must have vanished very soon after receipt so there really must be an enquiry and if the papers cannot be found then the postal vote accuracy and content should be individually checked.
I do not subscribe to the conspiracy theory so the only place there could be doubt is the postal vote accuracy and that can be rechecked because the names of those requesting postal votes can be identified.
A weee bit of police work will resolve all the arguement.
108

LEAL,

04/02/2009 08:15:14
Another interesting thing in all this is the fact that the Scots,despite a vast superiority in numbers on the ground,managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in Glenrothes.They surely took their eye off the ball with regard to postal votes.
109

,

04/02/2009 08:19:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
110

gus1940,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 08:19:31
Correct me if I am wrong but is it not the case that Westminster is in control of the administration of elections in Scotland and has refused SNP requests, subsequent to the 2007 shambles managed by that little Alexander chap,that they be controlled by Holyrood.

Would the SNP be asking for an inquiry into a c--k-up for which their administration was responsible - I think not.

Incidentally could the reason for the long delay in calling the election be anything to do with allowing time for Labour to make certain 'arrangements'.
111

langtonian,

uphall 04/02/2009 08:19:47
SNP distraction story to deflect attention away from their "Gerrymandering" it requieres to have their budget ratified.While that will, with a great deal of dumbing down probably get the nod today at Holyrood, it leaves them in an even more vunerable position,with their measlie one seat advantage,and having had to climb down from their overblown power of Governance suspended on an observably shaky nail, supported only by "caving" in to other parties pressure.

However with John Swinney promising 1600 new green jobs, Alex Salmond displaying his oft self-expressed training with The Bank Of Scotland as an oil specialist to fall back on (he didn't appear to have any idea about what was going back at his old Alma Mater regarding that Bank's collapse)to say nothing of his leadership/constant flag waving display at the Glenrothes bye election,to an extent he scunnered many many potenial voters,the candidate suffered by Salmonds overblown antics he was an electoral liability.

As to the postal voting, there has been in place for some years now the opportunity for those REGISTERED to vote to avail themselves of the choice, postal vote or polling booth vote, that there was an increase of the given size is no surprise, it's a valuable way to ensure participation, particularly with older voters.

Ms Fabiani has been in high spirits with her recent announcment,Ministers 'committed'to Gaelic' that should have been Ministers should be Committed to some "safe place " for extending dead language school increase when the remainder of Scottish Education is fast becoming a joke.

To add to that indescretion we have the much vaunted £12,million pound toward the Duke of Sutherland Titian picture bail out,a family who have been icon's of hatred and malign intent, by the Snp, as being the perpetrators of the so called Highland Clearances.

The main thrust of the Public Relations within the party was to findy any story,hype it out of all proportion and keep the "Meedja" otherwis
112

Grahamski,

Falkirk 04/02/2009 08:20:44
111
What do you mean 'the Scots'?
113

Grahamski,

Falkirk 04/02/2009 08:23:07
113
You're wrong. The responsibility lies with the local authority to organise the election.
114

daveserviceman,

edinburgh 04/02/2009 08:23:41
I dont Vote for any party ass they are all corrupt.
but these papers are most likely in the toaster,
I can only say that the SNP want these names and addresses to do a Robert Magabe on the people that did not vote for them
115

The Tin Man,

04/02/2009 08:23:46
#108

Is this the same Tricia Marwick who pays her son nice little bonuses out of her tax-payer funded expenses, and then goes on to sit on the Parliamentary Standards Committee?

20% of MSP's are members of the Nepotism Club, and like to pay family members out of their expenses.
116

Gdgy,

04/02/2009 08:24:56
sO THE snp LOSE...
They then slag off the electorate calling them idiots and traitors
Then they cast doubt on the vote....
Good losers....and good role models???
117

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/02/2009 08:25:17
As others have said - if there is a conspiracy here it has been orchestrated by an SNP council. But there wasn't, was there.

As was pored over at the time, the result in Glenrothes was a combination of a backlash against SNP over-confidence, a series of visits by the local-boy Prime Minister (unprecedented in a by-election), and the "bounce" of the UK government's actions on the banking crisis, which at that point were widely deemed to be better than anything the SNP had been suggesting.

The other very significant factor was the local issue of schools spending, with an SNP government and an SNP local council in power, people reacted to service cuts by voting against the party in power.

Frankly all of these explanations are 100 times more convincing than the idea that a conspiracy against the SNP was orchestrated in a council run by the SNP.
118

Nevsky;,

Moscow 04/02/2009 08:27:22
Quite laughable reading the unionists posts this morning and it seems not one is in the slightest concerned that the registers have been lost.

As for tyring to pin the blame on the SNP well the legislation is in place and the rules regarding the retention of documents are quite clear.

It is the clerk of the court who holds responsibility for these records!




119

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 08:27:56
Poor old Grahamski.
120

TWC,

04/02/2009 08:29:25
114 langtonian
What a load of tripe, if the Nats cannot scrutinise the result, as they are legally entitled to do, then there needs to be an investigation. It is probably a load of rubbish but we need the authorities to make sure it is.
We are a democracy so it is important that there is never any doubt.
Anyway it is easy to check the postal vote accuracy using statistical sampling of the total postal vote population ofapprox 7/8 thousand so let's get on with it. You'd have the answer in a week.
121

Number 6,

Germany 04/02/2009 08:31:28
When oh when are these hand-wringing unionistas going to acknowledge that their Labour heros are institutionally corrupt?

Are they prepared to condone the looting of public funds to enrich family members, simply to defend their non existent "Union"?

The Labour party after their orgy of "Britishness" have now cancelled the public holiday designed to celebrate it. This is due to large swathes of England
who would baulk at the very idea of being called British .

This suspected electoral fraud is simply the tip of the corruption and sleaze iceberg.

They will never stop while their Scottish flocks, continue zombie like, to support them.

They will be exterminated in South Britain leaving a ever decreasing number of hand-wringing Scots waving their now tattered Labour issued Union Jacks.
122

Nevsky;,

Moscow 04/02/2009 08:31:32
118 Tin#

That's nothing. Lord Watson has claimed £100,000 from the Lords in the past year while on probation!

Britain....haha..got to laugh!

123

brownlie,

04/02/2009 08:32:50
Are there two Grahamskis - heaven forbid? One was on this site yesterday self-righteously, and correctly, criticising posters for insulting remarks and one is on this site today calling SNP supporters "swivel-eyed pyschos". Would the real Grahamski stand up or, better still, stand down?
124

Scottish 'N British,

04/02/2009 08:32:51
98

Read the article again for Roy's views.

This is a SNP scandal - clearly, different parts of the party weren't speaking to each other when someone thought there wwas an opportunity of scandalmongering.

Repeat - SNP scandal.

What's the bet Newsnight Scotland's request for an explanation will be met with the words "we asked the Scottish Executive for an explanation, but no one was available...however an Executive spokesman issued a brief statement...."

Let the truth be told. And apologies made.
Before Salmnod's tenure as leader of this parliament descends quickly into the kind of joke enough to make Rab Mugabe wince.

125

The Tin Man,

04/02/2009 08:37:45
#121 Nevsky

Erm... you havn't posted anything stating your concern about the lost register, either... So should we all find that 'laughable'?

You are correct that the clerk of the court holds responsibility for these records, and Kenny McAskil ultimately holds responsibility for the clerk.
126

brownlie,

04/02/2009 08:38:38
128 Rules?

How do the SNP benefit from Labour winning a debacle of an election?

Will the Tories or Labour be in control of your federation?
127

langtonian,

uphall 04/02/2009 08:38:51
otherwise engaged.
Having taken some modest interest in the shennanigans that seeps through all politics,it seems to me a wise move for incumbent Snp politicians at Holyrood to seek out their job seeking CV's as post the next election their number will be somewhat decimated by an elctorate "street wise enough to be aware of the following.

You can fool all of the people some of the time.

And some of the people all of the time

But you cant fool ALL the people ALL the time.

Snp seem to believe,

You can fool ALL the people ALL the time.

That will be their RUBICON!
128

Rodster,

Glasgow 04/02/2009 08:39:21
I said immediately after this sham of a by-election that something was stinking about it and so it is proving .
Labour have form in rigging postal voting and for corruption in general.
The experts and all the polls showed an SNP victory and lo and behold because of postal voting Labour win it and by some margin , thus enabling an embattled First Minister of the Treasury to hang on to his British Establishment post.
No chance you say?
And Dr David Kelly committed suicide , and there were WMD in Iraq, and nobody got an honour for donating to the Labour party , Wendy did not intentional wrong doing , nor did Peter Hain , Nor Harriet Harman , nor did any Labour Peers offer ot accept money in exchange for altering laws in the UK Houses of Praliament .
It just could not happen in the wonderful democratic UK !!!
129

TWC,

04/02/2009 08:40:26
We all suffer from such failures, just have an enquiry and shut everybody up.
As I said only postal votes could be in doubt and they can be statistically sampled -- dead easy.
130

Scottish 'N British,

04/02/2009 08:47:15
128

You are correct. Here's a conspiracy theory - perhaps some "naughtiness" has gone on leaving the SNP in a fishy position leading to the registers being "mislaid". Then again, perhaps the SNp wanted the names of all transgressors, ready for the day when they take real power, and the executions begin.

Unionists can be creative in the CT department, too.

Anyway, it's all to do with "voracity" - not, this time of SNP ministers statements to parliament, but elsewhere.

131

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 08:47:20
#132 "a wise move for incumbent Snp politicians at Holyrood to seek out their job seeking CV's as post the next election their number will be somewhat decimated"

Aw, bless. If anyone ever teaches Unionists to read, in particular the numbers on the end of opinion polls and approval ratings, they might be dangerous.
132

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/02/2009 08:47:58
#133 Sour grapes, nothing more.

The result in Glenrothes was a combination of a backlash against the SNP, who were in power at local and national level and who had been claiming victory for weeks beforehand; 2 visits by the Prime Minister (unprecedented in a by-election); positive public perception of Brown's handling of the financial crisis; a backlash against local schools budget cuts by the SNP; and a "maverick" selection by Labour who was locally very popular.

If you seriously prefer a conspiracy theory to that piece of logical reasoning then you are deluded.
133

yockel,

04/02/2009 08:48:18
The very fact they have wheeled out Nacnud in Embra to comment on this, two days in a row is conclusive evidence of Labour concern that the records might be found.

What is the point of an enquiry? It is the records which are needed not explanations. If the election can not be proved it should be void and no I do not vote SNP.
134

Son of Justice,

beyond the pale 04/02/2009 08:53:16
This is straight from the SNP manual of dirty tricks (and it is a thick manual).

Let's get this straight - an SNP-run Council and an Agency of the Scottish Government which is the responsibility of SNP Justice Minister Kenny MacAskill between them contrive to lose a marked up register of an Election in which the SNP were unexpectedly thumped (though all the ballot papers, including Postal Votes, are still available) and the Gnats are insinuating that Scottish Labour are guilty of Electoral fraud?

By all means let us have an investigation. Voters deserve to know about the level of SNP incompetence which allowed this to happen, and the SNP's political motives for attempting to spin this as Labour sleaze.

The Gnat "doubts" being raised now are little more than a smear campaign following an Election which they still refuse to admit that despite all their hype and hubris they lost badly.

The Gnats know full well, and know that they know, who were the Postal Voters in Glenrothes. Like all Parties they would have received the lists during the campaign as part of their entitlement to the Electoral Register. And like all Parties they would have been able to be present to watch the PVs being opened before the main count. And if their activists were any good they would also have had at that stage a pretty fair idea which way the postal voting was going.

To suggest otherwise now, when not a whisper of complaint about the PVs was previously raised at any time before, during or after the Election campaign, is simply the dishonest politics of smear.

Still, I suppose the SNP need to do something to deflect attention from the reality of their under-achieving administration. SNP - doing nothing much in Scotland or for Scotland.
135

Scottish 'N British,

04/02/2009 08:53:45
SAMPLE DRAUGHT

Voting options for XXXX constituency, where 8 candidates are standing, in an Alba separate from Britain.

1. Alex Salmon for First Minister
2. First Minister, Alex Salmond
3. Alex Salmon, First Minister
4. Alex Salmon Is Great
5. XXX (candidate's name)
6. SNP
7. Like Shortbread And Irn Bru? Alex's Yer Man
8. Any, all of the above

lol
136

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 08:53:52
#137 "The result in Glenrothes was a combination of a backlash against the SNP"

A 5% swing and 5000 extra votes is a "backlash"? How Alex Salmond must be praying for such a backlash at the next election.
137

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/02/2009 08:54:21
#138 The ballot papers are all safely accounted for, which means the election cannot be "void". It is dreadful that the marked registers are missing, and they need to be found, but that is the full extent of the problem.

And I don't get "wheeled out" by anyone. I'm independently motivated.
138

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/02/2009 08:56:20
#141 Right back at you - a 5% swing and 5000 extra votes is a conspiracy against the SNP? How Alex Salmond must be praying for more conspiracies against him!
139

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 04/02/2009 08:58:57
Is it simply not more Scottish incompetence ?
140

Son of Justice,

still beyond the pale 04/02/2009 08:59:39
#138 - Aye, Yockel, let's re-run the Election - as many times as it takes to get a result with which the Gnats are happy.

Funny how many of you CyberGnat trolls "do not vote SNP". Aye, we know, just honest, neutral soldiers for Scotland and democracy - Sour Alba and all that.
141

yockel,

04/02/2009 09:01:40
145 SOJ, just find the record, problem solved, if you dare.
142

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 09:03:34
#143 "Right back at you - a 5% swing and 5000 extra votes is a conspiracy against the SNP? How Alex Salmond must be praying for more conspiracies against him!"

As far as I'm aware nobody from the SNP has alleged or implied any conspiracy.

It is, however, a matter of record that Labour have a recent and serious track record in postal-voting fraud, and that the dramatic rise in the number of postal votes in this election almost exactly accounts for the number of votes Labour won by, and that it is now no longer possible to verify the source of these votes.
143

Rodster,

glasgow 04/02/2009 09:03:38
Ah using the Duncan in Edinburgh again , been awhile Uncle Tom.
The more you rubbish it the more it smells, this was the reason for the long delay in the actual poll to enable the Labour fix time to be made operational.
Also look at the "unusual results" in 2007 a lot of seats that were expected to fall to the SNP miraculously went against the National swing and stayed Labour .
The FPTP seats won by SNP were surprises and not ones that the establishment expected or had time to do anything about.
We had 150,000 ruined ballots boxes of votes falling overboard on boats in the Clyde

Yeah I am making it all up .....just like cash for honours , cash for laws , illegal donations , illegal wars it is all a dirty tricks campaign by the bad SNP
144

The Tin Man,

04/02/2009 09:04:37
I use a postal vote, and I don't vote Labour. You never know - maybe people voted SNP with postal votes.

Postal votes do not equate to electral fraud, and some twit loosing the marked electoral roll is nothing more, and nothing less, than some twit loosing the marked electoral roll.
145

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/02/2009 09:09:47
#148 Blah blah blah. I assume you think the Glasgow East by-election was fair and above board, because your party won?

Pathetic, juvenile and beneath contempt.
146

Grahamski,

Falkirk 04/02/2009 09:10:24
148
'We had 150,000 ruined ballots boxes of votes falling overboard on boats in the Clyde'
Huh?
Are you related to SNP MSP Christina '£500 billion' McKelvie by any chance?
147

Mike S,

04/02/2009 09:11:29
Seems to happen a lot in labour constituencies. Report from November 2007 in South Shields Gazette
"POLICE are investigating the 'disappearance' of 18 ballot boxes after May's local elections in South Tyneside". Why are they are pushing for more people to use postal votes I wonder?
148

Grahamski,

Falkirk 04/02/2009 09:11:42
...anway good to see that mad exaggeration in nat circles isn't just confined to their fantasist leader, eh?
149

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 09:11:43
#149 "I use a postal vote, and I don't vote Labour. You never know - maybe people voted SNP with postal votes. "

Maybe they did. But either a lot fewer people voted SNP, or a lot more people voted Labour, in Glenrothes than absolutely anyone predicted or expected, right up to an hour before the result was announced. That's rather suspicious - when has a by-election result ever been called SO wrongly, SO uniformly? - and so it'd be nice if everything was legal and above board and verifiable. At the moment, it seems not to be. Who does that benefit? Only one party has a Westminster MP for Glenrothes.
150

TWC,

04/02/2009 09:11:51
149 The Tin Man

Agreed but it is still ridiculous that it was lost so soon after the election.

I still say there should be an investigaton and if it still isn't found do a random sample of the postal vote population and put that on the record.
151

Edward,

04/02/2009 09:12:57
#127
Your really one complete gibbering idiot!
Your not Lindsay Roy are you?
You seem very keen to quote his idiotic words
The Facts which seem to delude you is this.The SNP are not contesting the Election. The SNP Council had the marked voter register sent to the sheriff clerk's office in Kirkcaldy and has been confirmed 'A Scottish Court Service spokesman said, “We can confirm that the sheriff clerk at Kirkcaldy Sheriff Court took receipt of these items following the Glenrothes by-election in November and that the voting papers for this election, which were deposited at the same time, are available'
So the Sheriff clerks office signed for them, they confirm receipt of them, but they have gone missing, what makes this the fault of the SNP?
Fact. Voter turnout was down, but postal voting was up by a staggering 3000, compared with the 2005 election. Now was it a case of a large numbe of Glenrothes voters suddenly taken the urge to be on holiday or didnt fancy walking that they voted by postal ballot?
Fact. The SNP predicted that they would win, but with a small margin, this based on door to door canvassing. Their calculations have been proven accurate in the Glasgow East by election, so why would they have suddenly got it wrong. Strange thing is the other parties also had it down to an SNP win, including Labour(but equally strangely they went quiet on this)
Fact. Postal vote rigging is the speciallity of Labour, they have been prosecuted in England over postal ballots being rigged in tghe West Midlands and Leicester.
So we have a higher than normal postal ballot, that in itself is not the smoking gun, but now the register has gone missing while in the Sheriff's office, still no smoking gun, but the gun is starting to look warm
152

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 09:13:12
#150 "Blah blah blah. I assume you think the Glasgow East by-election was fair and above board, because your party won?"

No, we think it was fair and above board because all the legal paperwork proving that it was hasn't inexplicably gone missing.
153

Grahamski,

Falkirk 04/02/2009 09:13:14
152
You seem confused. No ballots went missing in Glenrothes, it's the register of who voted that was lost.
154

Son of Justice,

Further beyond the pale 04/02/2009 09:13:25
#133 - "I said immediately after this sham of a by-election that something was stinking about it"

One of the CyberGnats isn't happy. Better re-run the Election then. I was going to ask why you people can't grow up, but I suppose that if you ever did, you'd stop being Gnat zealots and take up serious politics.

Scotland really deserves better than King Smug's mean-spirited, do-nothing administration with its confrontational, personality-centred politics.

Scotland needs jobs, schools, hospitals, homes - not manufactured conspiracy theories, campaigns to get Mary Queen of Scots' bones back off the English and taxpayer-funded SNP Party Political broadcasts featuring the MSP for Barbados South, Shir Shean Cannaelivehere.

Aye, publicly-funded TV ads broadcast only on Scottish TV and featuring a load of folk who don't bother to live here, telling Scots who DO bother to live here to come home to where we already are. Makes a lot of sense in a recession.
155

Autism Rights,

Ayrshire 04/02/2009 09:13:57
Yes, it's obvious that conspiracies DO exist.It's obvious, too, that corruption exists.

We know that - as Traquair has helpfully posted above - that there have been proven cases of electoral fraud.

We also now know that many of the ballot papers that were rejected by the machines at the Scottish elections were NOT spoiled ballots, and that they were NOT checked manually.

We also know that we were promised a Judicial Review of the Scottish election fiasco and nothing has happened.
156

GrahamH,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 09:14:00
It sounded last night like Mr Roy was protesting too much or did not understand what was being said, although it was clear to others.

He kept banging on about proof it was unfair but no-one said it was, just couldn't prove that without records.

We can't have doubts in electoral process, when belief breaks down in that process we have an issue.
157

John H,

edinburgh 04/02/2009 09:14:39
A bit like the vote in Ayr when the SNP won. Many of the votes were not counted for various reasons all of which could have been avoided.
Pathetic.
158

Rodster,

Glasgow 04/02/2009 09:15:20
The Labour party is corrupt and capable of any infraction to keep power and their noses in the public trough .
Over the years it has not been Tory or even Liberal corruption that happens it is invariably always Labour .
This time though they have surpassed themselves adding war criminals to their already tarnished history
159

Breezy,

Argyll 04/02/2009 09:19:34
Labour's track record on polling fraud as pointed out by #85 has all been south of the border so far in Bradford, Peterborough, Slough and Birmingham.
These are the places they have been caught red handed ( excuse the pun )
Was there any process put into place to eliminate this fraud in these places after this ?
160

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/02/2009 09:20:23
#157 I was responding to Rodster's rant which included allegations about a whole raft of elections for which we do have the full paperwork, but which he sees as having been "fixed":

"[In 2007] a lot of seats that were expected to fall to the SNP miraculously went against the National swing and stayed Labour. The FPTP seats won by SNP were surprises and not ones that the establishment expected or had time to do anything about."
161

Son of Justice,

04/02/2009 09:21:40
#156 - the key fact which seems to be eluding you and your CyberGnat pals, Edward son, is that it is two SNP-run institutions - a Council and the Scottish Court Service - which between them have contrived to lose the marked up register. Scottish Labour is nowhere to be seen in all of this.

Rather sinks a hole in all the Gnat "grassy knoll" fantasist conspiracy theories, don't you think?

No of course you don't think, you're a Gnat. The last thing any of you want is your rabid, logic-free anti-Unionist prejudices confused with the facts.
162

Alastair the First,

04/02/2009 09:23:17
Lindsay roy is attempting to divert the issue, firstly by trying to make out that this is somehow a problem caused by the SNP, and then by his ridiculous comment about recounting the ballot papers. No-one is disputing the numbers of votes cast for each party, Mr roy; what is being suggested here is that the suspicious voting patterns might indicate that some people have been filling in ballot papers for people who didn't realise what was going on - people in old folks homes, dead people, people who had moved away etc. Certainly did a good job Labour - in fact they overcooked their fiddle.

This has serious repercussions as it suggests Labour can fiddle elections - must be stamped out before the referendum. FFS, they even fooled themselves as they thought they had lost.

This is clearly a fiddle and Labour must be cr4pping themselves that concrete proof is found.
163

Alastair the First,

04/02/2009 09:24:30
Duncan: you are either a Labour stooge or incredibly naive.
164

Ninian Reid,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 09:26:01
As they say in the politest of circles, oughtn't Mr Lindsay Roy be ready to "consider his position" until this matter is cleared up? If there has been dirty work at the crossroads, it would represent one of the biggest political scandals ever to engulf a UK Government and would almost certainly lead to an immediate General Election. Mr Roy should be prepared to stand aside and allow his (untarnished?) neighbours to continue parliamentary business on his behalf until the affair is - impartially - investigated at the very highest level.
165

Rodster,

Glasgow 04/02/2009 09:26:39
As usual trying to lay this at the door of the SNP , it is not the amount of votes cast it is the veracity of them that is in question.
The more you read v=comments from Grahamski , Duncan etc on here the more you realise there are enough of them that are thick enough and blind enough to do anything to keep Labour in Power and Scotland in dependency
166

Grahamski,

Falkirk 04/02/2009 09:27:13
157
'all the legal paperwork proving that it was hasn't inexplicably gone missing.'
All the legal paperwork? Huh?
Is there something in the water up in SNP HQ?
167

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 09:27:31
#162 "It sounded last night like Mr Roy was protesting too much or did not understand what was being said, although it was clear to others."

Mm. This is one of the things that makes the whole business look suspicious. Labour's reaction was an extraordinary outpouring of hysterical bile, attacking the SNP over allegations that absolutely nobody had made. You'd have expected a calm assertion that there did indeed need to be an inquiry and that they were as shocked at this affront to democratic standards as anyone else, but they immediately started shrieking about how everything was fine and the result was definitely definitely valid, even though nobody had even passingly suggested that it wasn't.

They were behaving just like like kids who know they've been stealing sweeties but haven't been caught yet do, and many of the more deranged Unionist apologists on here are doing the same thing - "IT WISNAE ME! IT WIS THAT KENNY! NO' ME!"

The loud screams that the SNP are responsible are nothing short of hilarious in their panicky desperation. Court clerks aren't appointed by the SNP and, one would hope, the SNP has no knowledge of their political affiliations. If a court clerk went out and murdered someone, would the SNP be responsible for that too?
168

Rodster,

GLASGOW 04/02/2009 09:27:31
Quisling Brown " I will do WHATEVER is necessary to maintain the Union"

Enough said??
169

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 09:28:12
#172 "Is there something in the water up in SNP HQ?"

You think SNP HQ is in Bath? Bless.
170

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/02/2009 09:29:22
#169 Excuse me if I don't get too worked up by silly insults from someone who says "This is clearly a fiddle" when there is absolutely no evidence of any such thing.

It is not me who is naive, Alastair. You need to take a step back and see what has actually happened here. Stop being such a drooling Braveheart Nat for once.
171

Grahamski,

Falkirk 04/02/2009 09:29:54
Anway, good to see the SNP's cyber hacks flailing about on here. It's educational to see the smears in action, from blame to smear to girn.
Thank goodness they represent such a small minority of our country.
172

Rodster,

Glasgow 04/02/2009 09:30:48
#176
#169 Excuse me if I don't get too worked up by silly insults from someone who says "This is clearly a fiddle" when there is absolutely no evidence of any such thin

Yes indeed Duncan there is no evidence because the Labour crooks made sure the evidence went missing !!
173

Ananurhing,

04/02/2009 09:32:25
Like most people, I hadn't considered the possibility of any wrong doing in this election. Even when the polls and pundits got the result so wrong. Their predictions went from an SNP win to one or two percentage points either way. In the end Labour won with I'm guessing a 30%+ majority.

My suspicions were only aroused when I saw and heard Labours response to this story. "Sour grapes...get over it". This is a scandal. If this happened in Zimbabwe, UN observers would declare the result invalid.

Labour have form in rigging postal votes. Do I think they did it? No!...Do I think labour are capable of doing it? Absolutely! Especially if they've learned lessons in how not to get caught. This register is the only way corroborate that the election was free and fair.

Everyone should be outraged about this. Lindsey Roy and Labour are dealing with this very badly. They're putting themselves in the frame with their responses.
174

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 09:32:29
#176 "there is absolutely no evidence"

That's rather the point, dear. Try to keep up.
175

Rodster,

glasgow 04/02/2009 09:35:05
Andrew Gilligan shortly before the illegal invasion of Iraq finds reliablre information of a dodgy dossier , a weapons Inspector that is appalled at the lies being used by Labour to justify the war.
Cue Alistair Campbell outrage , denial ,attack The BBC , attack Gilligan out the good Doctor we in Labour are innocent it is everyone else that is lying , The BBC ,the public , the media The doctor , ooops and look how fortunate for Labour the doctor has just killed himself!!!

Yeah Yeah Duncan , Grahamski et al we know it is never Labour we are making all this up
176

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/02/2009 09:35:48
#179 "This is a scandal. If this happened in Zimbabwe, UN observers would declare the result invalid."

No, they wouldn't. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of what the problem is here.

The votes, including postal votes, were counted in the presence of representatives from all parties and a great mass of media. There was no question of Zimbabwe-like ballot stuffing, intimidation or electoral fraud. The marked registers were lodged with the courts quite properly. The courts have lost those documents, one hopes temporarily.

UN observers would not even raise an eyelid at this if it happened in Zimbabwe.

You are desperately inflating the importance of this issue.
177

Mike S,

04/02/2009 09:36:05
#158 Grahamski I see I need to explain, since you seem to be incapable of grasping the point I was making, I was not suggesting votes went missing but that in other labour constituencies items relevant to the vote went missing in several constituencies. There was also postal vote rigging in some north west constituencies and in Birmingham at local elections in the past. There is a serious problem with the electoral system, not least the ability of the authorities to retain relevant documentation.
178

Newtyle Railway,

Antarctica 04/02/2009 09:36:21
Lindsay Roy says of Patricia Marwick "if she's saying there is something more sinister (than incompetence)then she needs to come up with the evidence". Isn't that exactly what she is trying to do and as been doing since less than 2 weeks after the election? Unfortunatley it seems the evidence has been lost! But of course Labour would have us believe that as Central Fife is a nationalist baileywick and, therfore, under their control. If that were really the case surely the Nats would have just fixed the election and won, rather than arrange for the papers to go missing having lost!
179

Linda,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 09:37:26
The SNP first requested the marked-up register in November less than two weeks after the election took place.

Why it was not available then and why it
has taken two months for the Sheriff Clerk to admit it has disappeared.

180

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/02/2009 09:37:58
#180 That's twice you have interjected in a thread with a silly, irrelevant, off the cuff remark which fails to address the point of the thread.

What I said was the statement "This is clearly a fiddle" is not backed up with any evidence.

If you can't follow a thread, don't contribute to it.
181

Alastair the First,

04/02/2009 09:39:04
176 Duncan: As the old sherry advert said "One instinctively knows when something is right". Or in this case, wrong. There are a number of facts about this election that don't ring true - the result was a shock even to Labour, who in a control freak sort of way usually know how they are doing. The turnout being up; the postal vote numbers suddenly rocketing. There is enough evidence, albeit currently largely inadeqyate for a criminal prosecution, to make any thinking person at least slightly suspicious.

As I say, if you are not suspicious of this business, you maust be naive, stupid (and I don't think you are stupid, just misguided...) or blind Labour.
182

Rodster,

Glasgow 04/02/2009 09:39:38
You really are a thicko Duncan , that is the point without the register there is no proof of wrong doing or legitimacy that is the very point you numbskull
183

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 09:41:05
#182 "The votes, including postal votes, were counted in the presence of representatives from all parties and a great mass of media."

This simply isn't true of the postal votes.
184

Alastair the First,

04/02/2009 09:44:36
It's not the counting of the votes that is at issue, Duncan - it's whether or not the votes were actually cast by the registered voters that is under suspicion. Did dead people vote? If even one dead person is found to have had their vote marked off on the register, that is evidence of a fiddle. If more are found the scale of the fiddle increases. Understand now? Of course you do, you are just trying to obfuscate. And you're doing it deliberately (to quote Fatty Foulkes).
185

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/02/2009 09:44:56
#188 More insults. The evidence I am referring to, as I am growing tired of trying to explain, is evidence of wrongdoing in the disappearance of the registers. Central to the allegations that you and others are making is that Labour have been complicit in the disappearance of these documents. There is no evidence for that accusation.

Has that finally got through, or am I just banging my head against a brick wall again?
186

DouglasT,

04/02/2009 09:46:04
On the topic of Labour 'integrity', here is an informative article

http://www.libdemvoice.org/charlie-gordon-msp-10961.html
187

Mikey,

04/02/2009 09:46:17
Now we're getting somewhere. The Brown-shirts blame the National Party for losing evidence of Liebore sleaze! Almost like the previous Brown-shirts blaming the Jews for lousing up the economy!

How long before the Brown-shirts start blaming Scotland for lousing up the Brit economy? What liars! What scum! What sycophants!
188

Alastair the First,

04/02/2009 09:47:15
No evidence YET, Duncan. Would be interesting though if some evidence were to be uncovered. And just because it can't yet be proved doesn't mean it necessarily didn't happen.
189

Rodster,

Glasgow 04/02/2009 09:48:38
I have said it many times on here over the years I admire the unionists for only this , the abilities to defend the indefensible , and to never answer a question directly
190

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 09:48:51
#193 "There is no evidence for that accusation."

We know, dear. The disappearance of the evidence which would prove the facts EITHER WAY is the entire issue.
191

Nevsky;,

Moscow 04/02/2009 09:49:05
182 Duncan#

Not true. Postal votes are mixed in with ballot boxes, there is no way of telling at a count which are postal votes!

Handy!
192

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/02/2009 09:50:49
#192 You are contradicting yourself now.

"If even one dead person is found to have had their vote marked off on the register, that is evidence of a fiddle."

I agree wholeheartedly. But you have already stated "This is clearly a fiddle", and yet you have absolutely no evidence that "even one dead person is found to have had their vote marked off on the register".

My point to you in #176 is that you are asserting "this is a fiddle" without any evidence. Understand now? Of course you do, you are just trying to obfuscate.
193

Boab1,

04/02/2009 09:51:13
As I said on the original thread, there are a number of issues which do seem strange.

However, the fact that this is even being considered as possible shows how far the public's perception of politics has fallen. And how corrupt the Labour Party has become or is perceived to be.
194

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

Lochindorb 04/02/2009 09:51:22
The more Unionist denial I read the more suspicious I am becoming.

Why are they all suggesting we recount the Ballot papers. Everybody has agreed the number votes cast.

Seems not a single Labour supporter wishes to take the action that would clear this up. Find the register, or back trace the bar codes on the ballot papers without detailing who people voted for.

Once a new list has been established the voters can be checked and the Labour party will be proved to be honest.

If I was a lobour supporter I would want to at least take this opportunity to show no sleaze this time!!!

Or do they know something we don't. I dinf it strange at all the energy spent denying the need for an investigation.
195

Rodster,

Glasgow 04/02/2009 09:52:48
In 1939 as a prelude to the invasion of Poland the Nazis took some prisoners from one of their concentraion camps dressed them up in polish army uniforms shot them and placed them in German side of the border to try and frame the Poles for the need of the Nazis to invade Poland.
Blaming the innocent Poles for the German invasion .
The burning of the Reichstag and the blame laid on the Jews as a precursor for the justification of the holocaust.
The repeating of lies often enough till it becomes a truth .



196

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 09:53:19
#200 "My point to you in #176 is that you are asserting "this is a fiddle" without any evidence. Understand now?"

We all understand, and all your desperate semantic hairsplitting won't change that. He asserted an opinion based on the known facts. That's not illegal, you know. And once again - the absence of the evidence is precisely the issue. If you commit a crime and destroy the evidence, that doesn't mean the crime didn't happen.
197

fritigern,

Inverness 04/02/2009 09:54:23
Although outright fraud is a problem with postal voting, it is a minor problem compared with intimidation. In certain communities, how many wives would dare tell their husbands they wished to fill in the postal ballot secretly? Of course, the communities where this is likely to happen are those whom the Socialists pander to. Are there many Liberla Democrat, for example, husbands who would tell their wives how to vote, I wonder.

Not only is there intimidation of wives by their husbands, there is intimidation by Community Leaders, so-called, of members of their community. Again, can one really imagine groups of Liberal Democrats going around telling people to apply for postal votes and then supervise them being filled in. The secret ballot was brought in to try and curb intimidation and corruption of the electors. Our Socialist masters, for their own gain, have turned back the clock and made our electoral system one of the most corrupt in Europe.
198

John S,

04/02/2009 09:58:02
A spokesman for the Scottish Court Service confirmed that the registers had been delivered to the sheriff clerk there.
Surely the Sheriff Clerk must have known that the marked register is supposed to be available a week after an election and kept for a year.
Having received the document they would then had to made sure that is supposed to be available on the 13 November unless the document was not available on the 13 November ? then why not ?

199

Rodster,

Glasgow 04/02/2009 09:58:52
This is not the first time there have been issues regarding postal ballots .
Easy solution they must be stopped till such times as there is a 100~% certainty there can be no corruption .
that is the best we can hope for here , the cover up will be perfect , any enquiry limited in its remit and pre decided outcome before it begins.
Westminster will probably dispatch some independent minded guy like say Neil Kinnock or Alistair Campbell to head it up
200

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/02/2009 09:58:56
#199 Exactly what part of what I said is "not true"? I said that all votes including postal votes were counted in front of party reps and media. That is a fact.

You are now just wildly throwing statements around to create an appearance of wrongdoing or fraud. It's pathetic.
201

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/02/2009 10:01:19
#198 No.

Try reading it again, from the top.

The evidence I am talking about in this instance is evidence to support the assertion that Labour had anything to do with the marked registers going missing.

There is no evidence. The marked registers are not evidence of this.

This is the third time you have wilfully grasped the wrong end of the stick and started hitting me with it. It makes for a very poor quality of debate.
202

Rodster,

Glasgow 04/02/2009 10:01:45
#211 the only pathetic person on here is you Duncan you are using semantics to try and deflect form the genuine concerns here of all democrats.
It shows you to be more of the autocrat and against democracy
203

fifeis great,

Kirkcaldy 04/02/2009 10:01:50
Gnats really getting excited now!how on earth can two institutions run by thier beloved party contrive to loose these records? has the Gnat secret police stolen them away to start retribution on voters in Fife?
Will the leader Peter Grant the loser in the by-election please stand up and say something? is he blaming court officials of theft or incompetance. Surely this should now go to the police as somebody in the Snp administration in Fife council knows what happeneed to these records, nothing short of pure Gnat central sleaze.
204

 sm753,

04/02/2009 10:02:09
88 Wardoggy


"75. The SFT is actually delivering already, two hub projects in the north and the south which togather represent £30Million of sped,"

Name the projects, Muttley.

What is "sped"?
205

Nevsky;,

Moscow 04/02/2009 10:03:22
211 Duncan#

Can you explain a four fold increase in postal votes. This was not a summer election and Labour are not known for getting their vote out so what would you put it sown to?

All above board and no cause for raised eyebrows?
206

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 10:03:27
#212 "Exactly what part of what I said is "not true"? I said that all votes including postal votes were counted in front of party reps and media. That is a fact."

No, it's a lie. Postal votes can be and often are counted before election night. Otherwise long delays would be caused.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5212542.stm
207

Rodster,

Glasgow 04/02/2009 10:04:13
Ah more proof it were needed sm753 sent in to try and deflect the thread away from the corruption and on to SFT very obvious , very pathetic
208

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 10:04:35
#214 "Will the leader Peter Grant the loser in the by-election please stand up and say something? is he blaming court officials of theft or incompetance."

I imagine, like the rest of the SNP, he will wait for the results of the inquiry before making any such assertions.
209

Ananurhing,

04/02/2009 10:04:44
#182
"You are desperately inflating the importance of this issue"

No I'm not. As I said, I had no suspicions, even after the story broke. Labour and Roy's reaction to this is not what it should be....if they're beyond reproach.

It raises the question, are Labour capable of electoral fraud? Of course they are! They've been caught at it in the past.

Even then, I'm not saying that's what has happened here. Only that there are enough unusual circumstances to warrant some suspicion. It would be naive not to. Labour have form. Their reaction to this only hightens that suspicion.
210

Miss H,

04/02/2009 10:05:38
69 No of course Kenny will not shoulder the responsibility. If someone commits a criminal act you don’t blame their boss.

It concerns me that a lot of the posters here still have no conception of the seriousness of this and are making silly political points. For example Duncan at 150 – do we assume that the Glasgow east by-election was fair and above board because we won it? No you total idiot we assume that it was fair and above board because we have the marked up register and can verify a) that the number of votes cast matches the number of votes counted and b) that the electors who are recorded as having voted did in fact vote.

I also disagree very strongly with suggestions that electoral fraud is widespread in Scotland. In my experience it is not. I would have no hesitation in trusting electoral officials to conduct elections in a fair and impartial way because in my 20+ years of experience that is how they do it. Of course people try and cheat but they generally do not get away with it because of the checks and balances that are in place and because the police and electoral officials are on the ball.
211

Stan Butler,

04/02/2009 10:06:48

#206 fritigern

'Although outright fraud is a problem with postal voting, it is a minor problem compared with intimidation. In certain communities, how many wives would dare tell their husbands they wished to fill in the postal ballot secretly?Of course, the communities where this is likely to happen are those whom the Socialists pander to. Are there many Liberla Democrat, for example, husbands who would tell their wives how to vote, I wonder.'


And another thing about that kind of person. There's no point in letting them have baths in their houses. They'd only keep coal in them.

Tell me, what did you think of Thatcher? Did you mind the economic side?


212

Son of Justice,

04/02/2009 10:06:57
#199 - You are obviously unclear about what happens at a count. Postal Ballots are opened separately and verified (two separate forms) before being placed in piles for counting. Party activists can, and do, observe this happening to be satisfied of fair play.

At that stage Party activists can if they wish (and most do) make an informal sample count of PVs coming out to get an idea of where the votes are going. The sample actually gives a pretty good idea, though if you have enough activists you can make a full count. So there is no question of the SNP not having a good idea at Glenrothes that Scottish Labour had snagged a majority of the PVs. One of their "activists" Miss H said as much on a similarly hysterical thread in last night's EEN.

At the count itself, all Parties plus media and a host of others can all watch the count closely, and of course Glenrothes was watched very closely indeed. At that time no-one from the SNP raised any doubts as to the legitimacy of any aspect of the count.

That they are doing so now when two SNP-run institutions between them have contrived to lose the marked up register is simply the gutter politics of smear.

The result may have been a surprise to the Gnats, but not to many other observers, who suspected that they might have over-hyped themselves into believing their own publicity (and their own canvass returns, not a mistake that a Party accustomed to winning elections would make).

So you CyberGnats can bleat about the result all you want but the reality is that in Glenrothes the SNP were rejected by the voters. Not that surprising actually, the margin of support between SNP and Scottish Labour remains wafer thin. The wheels were always going to come off the Glasgow East bandwagon sooner or later. The zealots do like to pretend otherwise but the SNP just sneaked it in May 2007. There WAS no landslide.
213

 sm753,

04/02/2009 10:07:16
218 It was your pal Muttley who brought up SFT.

This story is almost too hilarious to comment on.

What a bunch of cringing pathetic poor losers.
214

Curious Yellow,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 10:08:09
It's perfectly obvious what has happened. If the registers are meant to be retained for a year after the election in question before being destroyed, then it's likely that the registers in question were mistakenly included with the general election registers.

Any questions?
215

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 04/02/2009 10:08:14
Any part that condones illegal donations, corrupt practices in the Lords, "British jobs for British workers" (didn't mean that, just meant they should get the skills to compete for their own jobs), etc. I could go on, deserves to have this little gem investigated forensically.

It's just too much of a coincidence that none of the other papers relating to the election, including ballot papers was lost, just the marked vote register. And it's taken over two months to admit it, when if it had been "lost" as suggested this would have been immediately apparent.

Recalling Brown's "anything it takes" comment to keep Scotland in the UK, this appears to have all the ugly qualities so adequately demonstrated in other aspects of Labour party dealings, or at least enough to really demand explanation.

I do not vote SNP.

216

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/02/2009 10:08:49
#213 Ah yes, it always comes down to accusations of "using semantics". You've lost the argument.
217

Stan Butler,

04/02/2009 10:09:06
#221 Miss H

So in your twenty years of experience you've never heard of the concept of ministerial responsibility?
218

Miss H,

04/02/2009 10:10:00
212 and 217 You are both correct - postal votes are counted in front of agents (which is how we know how many in Glenrothes were for Labour) but not at the same time as the ballot boxes are opened. Although postal voters can hand their vote in at a polling station if they have not posted it.
219

bill-alba,

fife 04/02/2009 10:10:30
the papers were given to the court, the snp asked for a copy there wasnt a copy so they asked why not, where was the copy, they are informed its gone missing what would you british people do, say oh well thats ok then, yes you probably would.
220

Free by 2093,

04/02/2009 10:10:44
It is clear that this is SNP orchestrated. One of their party members (finger men) shredded the document so that the ministers (head men) could cry "foul".

The SNP are as bad as Labour. Scotland needs neither. Everyone knows a tethered goat in red could win Glenrothes. The town is full of clients of the state who know only Labour "doles" out free money.
221

Alastair the First,

04/02/2009 10:11:05
Duncan: I think we can agree that there is no evidence as yet that would stand up in a court of law. However there is a large amount of circumstantial evidence that raises suspicions. Only suspicions at this stage, mind. Now, let us assume that at some point the register reappears (they're probably printing one off right now at Labour HQ... joke!). I think you would agree that it might be wrothwhile checking who voted and then going and asking them if they did indeed vote (not how they voted, just whether or not they voted). That would clear this matter up. i'm sure you will support that course of action as otherwise Labour are going to smell of corruption. Yet again.
222

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 10:11:12
#223 "the reality is that in Glenrothes the SNP were rejected by the voters."

The reality is that in Glenrothes the SNP achieved a 5% swing from Labour, making large inroads into a huge majority. You're right that there was no landslide in May 2007 (did anyone say there was?), but the reality is that the SNP's popularity and vote has increased steadily and consistently since then, including at Glenrothes.
223

Miss H,

04/02/2009 10:12:25
228 Stupid point. If someone who worked for Gordon brown went out and robbed a post office would you demand GB's resignation? I don't think so.

Maybe you don't understand that destroying a marked up register would be a crime.
224

Newtyle Railway,

Antarctica 04/02/2009 10:13:20
Labours mad dash to deny that they did anything wrong or that there was any fraud is what is really suggestive. AS Ms Marwick said requesting this document is something that the SNP does as a matter of course for every by-election. It was only then that Labour's cyber supporters rushed out to say that it was all nationalist sour grapes and that if anyone had done anything wrong it was the SNP etc etc
225

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 04/02/2009 10:14:26
Labour definetly committed electoral fraud here and they are about to be caught out in spectacular style. And when they are I will laugh so loudly and heartily that people will think the recession is over...
226

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 10:15:48
#212 "The evidence I am talking about in this instance is evidence to support the assertion that Labour had anything to do with the marked registers going missing. There is no evidence. The marked registers are not evidence of this."

Dearie dearie me. IF there was any wrongdoing by Labour, the register IS the evidence by which it would be uncovered. It is, after all, hardly likely that any other party would fiddle the vote so that Labour won it. More semantic desperation from you.
227

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/02/2009 10:16:37
#220 Let me remind you that what you said was this:

"This is a scandal. If this happened in Zimbabwe, UN observers would declare the result invalid."

That is what led to my statement that you are desperately inflating the importance of this. You actually claimed that the election should be voided.

I note that you have tempered your views since then, and are now saying "I'm not saying that's what has happened here. Only that there are enough unusual circumstances to warrant some suspicion."

I'm glad you have tempered your views, but please don't criticise me for responding robustly to your original, outrageous statements.
228

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 10:19:27
According to Patricia Marwick, the Fife MSP, her party
always asks to examine the Marked Voter Registers after every election in which her party takes part.

BBC Scotland claims that similar requests had also been made by the OTHER political parties involved, yet they remained silent about this matter?

Any member of the public is also entitled to examine these Registers and that is why they are retained for 12 months after the result.

Marwick made it clear that she was not alleging anything "untoward" had taken place but she found it strange, in view of the large turnout, and unexpected late surge to Labour, who won by over 7,000 votes?

Recently building work has been carried out at Kirkcaldy Sheriff Court and it is believed that the Registers may have been thrown out by mistake? What else was thrown out?

After the voting fiasco at the last Scottish Parliament Elections, this latest embarrassment involving the United Kingdom electoral system, only makes us look like a Third World banana republic!
229

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/02/2009 10:19:51
#221 Miss H this insulting language is surprising from you. If you had paid attention to the conversation thread between myself and Rodster you would see that my mention of Glasgow East was in the context of his claim that many of the 2007 Labour seat wins were the result of widespread fraud by Labour.

The point is that Glasgow East is like all of those results in the sense that the marked registers are extant.

Please be more temperate in your language if you are going to leap to conclusions based on poor reading of a debate.
230

Free by 2093,

04/02/2009 10:20:13
241 Onward motion

It might have been Labour, it might have been SNP. We need another election. Did the UN ever finish its investigation into Great British democracy? We were being investigated following Labour councillors going to jail for fixing postal votes.

Many guilty men have had evidence planted on them by the coppers to make sure they go down. Sure Labour look guilty, but the SNP are bent as well, I think they just planted the evidence.
231

Son of Justice,

04/02/2009 10:23:01
#217 - "Postal votes can be and often are counted before election night"

Yes, they can be. But as I have said several times, SNP Party activists were able to observe the opening of the Glenrothes PVs as closely as they wished. They would also have had a list of the names and addresses of all postal voters. I can think of no aspect of a count which happens unobserved by Party representatives. Elections are a very transparent process in the UK.

Though all Parties have the odd skeleton, electoral fraud in the UK is very rare, organised electoral fraud by a Party (as opposed to the odd voter doing a bit of personation with his dead Granny's poll card or whatever) is even rarer, and electoral fraud on a scale large enough to influence the outcome is virtually unknown.

For the CyberGnats here to insinuate that fraud is widespread and that Labour are responsible for most of it, is simply a lie. Ill-informed Gnats telling porkies on the other hand is an everyday event.
232

dido-bendigo,

Scotland 04/02/2009 10:24:40
#42 #75

It is good to know that some people are not blind to the obvious. It should not be taken for granted that the records have been destroyed either. If there was underhandedness involved and certain person's have the document, they have a pretty strong hold over those responsible for the fix!

If the records turn up, would it be possible to identify which way someone voted from the code on every voting slip?

I'm a floating voter and judge issues without political leanings. My perception on the vote is that it was a statement against conceit and arrogance. Make of that what you (no doubt) will!
233

Rodster,

Glasgow 04/02/2009 10:27:48
The point is not if it is Labour corruption or SNP incompetence.
What is the most important is to give the public reassurance that nothing untoward happened here .
Something that the Unionists on here find wrong.
They seem more intent on denying anything and blaming the SNP anyways as opposed to getting to the bottom of this worrying event
234

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 10:33:25
#246 Which other parties have been found guilty of massive election fraud based around postal voting in, ooh, let's say the last 10 years?
235

yockel,

04/02/2009 10:33:59
SoJ at 246 "They would also have had a list of the names and addresses of all postal voters"
Is that right is it? Well lets just get that list out and go and pay these postal voters a visit and ask them what they think.
236

Ananurhing,

04/02/2009 10:34:02
#240

Forgive me Duncan. I've not had my 12th cup of coffee yet. The point of my Zimbabwe comparison is that under a tinpot regime, if an election could not be verified as being above board because of "missing" documentation, observers would question the validity of the outcome. Same should apply here.
237

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/02/2009 10:34:22
#250 Another transformation! You started off telling us that Labour was guilty of fraud not only in Glenrothes but in practically every seat they won in the 2007 election. Now you are transformed into someone who just wants to be reassured that nothing untoward has happened.

I'm glad to see it, Rodster. Your earlier comments were inflammatory and ludicrous.
238

Son of Justice,

04/02/2009 10:34:33
#221 - Ah, Miss H. The Gnats' cyberpress officer is out of bed and up and running. Expect lots of insults but not much rational debate. It's the Gnat way.

You say that - "No of course Kenny will not shoulder the responsibility"

Those of us who work in the Scottish Criminal Justice system know only too well that Mr MacAskill will not shoulder responsibility for ANYTHING, so he is certainly not going to 'fess up for his Scottish Court Service having lost the marked up register they were apparently given by the SNP Council.

Not that Kenny's colleagues really want him out there taking responsibility for anything, mind you. They are much happier when he is safely in his box and away from the need for damage limitation.

A bit of a loose cannon, your man Kenny, no?
239

watcher,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 10:36:54
I see that the councillors are back at work today after the bad weather. You can tell by the activity on here. Go do what we put you in the job for.
240

The Tin Man,

04/02/2009 10:37:12
#250 Rodster

"What is the most important is to give the public reassurance that nothing untoward happened here .
Something that the Unionists on here find wrong."

I don't think that any poster here is suggesting that the matter is not subject to an independent investigation.

Retract your comment.
241

Rodster,

Glasgow 04/02/2009 10:38:44
No Duncan I strongly believe Labour are up to their neck here .
If you were not so stupid you would actually read and understand what I said .
no matter anyones motivation , if like me you believe in British corruption or like you you SNP incompetenence it needs investigated and properly
242

Grahamski,

Falkirk 04/02/2009 10:45:21
261
ha ha ha ha ha
not very bright are we?
243

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 10:46:17
#249 Dido
“If the records turn up, would it be possible to identify which way someone voted from the code on every voting slip?”

In a word, yes.
244

Son of Justice,

04/02/2009 10:46:57
#251 - ...and you, sonny boy, are a grade A clown and not worth a reasoned response, but if you want to refute what I say try doing it with hard facts rather than insults.

#252 - No UK Parties have in living memory been found guilty of "massive electoral fraud".

#253 - Yes, Yockel, it would be open to the SNP to do that. They already have the information they require. But I suspect that they are much more interested in pursuing their unsubstantiated smear campaign than in a serious investigation.

#261 - The last thing you have to contribute to this thread are any facts, mate. You deal exclusively in lies, half truths and innuendo.

The SNP are not about the truth here, merely smearing opponents in the hope that mud sticks. Dirty politics from charmless people.
245

Grahamski,

Falkirk 04/02/2009 10:47:46
We shouldn't be too surprised to see the hordes of cybergnats frothing away on here. When you look at their dear leader, proven liar and fantasist Mr Salmond, then it would be miraculous if the party membership didn't follow their leader's example.
246

d swabey,

cumbernauld 04/02/2009 10:50:20
Old saying NO SMOKE WITHOUT FIRE! Maybe the papers went on the fire?
247

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/02/2009 10:50:25
#260 Oh, I see, my congratulations were premature. You don't actually want this investigated, you just want to prove your unfounded allegations against Labour.

I'm not stupid, sunshine. You can accuse me of a lot of things, but that one just won't stick.

There needs to be an investigation to find the marked registers and establish how they went missing. Anything else is pure speculation on your part.
248

yockel,

04/02/2009 10:51:42
There is a postal vote, election fraud trial going on in Bradford at the moment (Tory). Doesn't seem to get reported very widely. Perhaps it's just a subject we are not allowed to talk about.
249

Rodster,

Glasgow 04/02/2009 10:52:19
#266 well let ye without sin huh Grahamski , there would be that nice honest "WMD" Tony Blair , or how about "No More boom and Bust " Brown never lied in their lives any Labour people , and Wendy absolutely 100% honest , and of course Peter Hain , Charlie Gordon ,
The famous Lords in cash for laws 100 veracity that labour party ,impecible if it were not so serious it would be laughable
250

Free by 2093,

04/02/2009 10:54:15
267

"No smoke without fire"

The SNP/Labour take advantage of people's assumptions that this true by throwing around a lot of spurious $h!t and hoping some will stick.

This case is an obvious example of this, it is already being reported on Reuters that the SNP have been found out for this set up.
251

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 10:54:39
#266 Grahamski

“ proven liar and fantasist Mr Salmond”

Where has this been proven?
252

Peeablo,

Back to the 70's 04/02/2009 10:56:05
As much as I would like a conspiracy to be true (breaks the monotony). I think this is a case of an administration screw up.
As the SNP MSP Marwick said, the SNP (as do all parties) access this information after ALL elections. The only person making accusations is the (excuse the term) 'monkey with the red rosette' Labour MP Lindsay Roy. I was embarrassed watching him on Newsnight.
253

Grahamski,

Falkirk 04/02/2009 10:56:34
272
Oh, I see, suddenly we need facts, do we?
254

ricky40,

04/02/2009 10:58:13
245 Free

How can the SNP "plant" evidence that is not there? Stop showing yourself up as an absolute idiot, choose and new moniker again, and start afresh.
255

Rodster,

GLASGOW 04/02/2009 10:58:17
268 Duncan, kindly do not refer to me as sunshine , that would indicate some sort of friendly banter , you are the type of person that as we say in Glasgow ."gies me the dry boak"
You are a liar , denier , and a Uncle Tom of the Westminster establishment .
However as I said yesterday , just as the budget goes through in Holyrood today and the Unionist parties dance to an SNP jig , so will Westminster after the next election (subject to no electoral unionist fraud)
it will dance to a Scottish jig , and you so to speak like all the unionists will be our bitches .
so my bitch watch your familiarity with me it appals me to even have to debate with a Vichy type like yourself
256

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 10:59:10
#265 "No UK Parties have in living memory been found guilty of "massive electoral fraud"."

Ooh, unlucky.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/4406575.stm

I'd call a "vote fraud FACTORY" - a warehouse full of people falsifying votes - quite massive, myself.
257

Stan Butler,

04/02/2009 10:59:49

So what are the gnat nutters suggesting happened?

Did the Sheriff purloin the papers?

Did the Sheriff Clerk wilfully destroy them?

Was there a Unionist infiltrator working in the office who did the dirty deed?

Was there an undercover operation by the secret service like what happens in all those movies starring Sir Shean Connery?

Obviously something very sinister is going on here. Fat N'eck Salmond was made to look like a plonker by this result and that can't be allowed to happen.

There must be a full investigation.

I'm firmly of the view that the only organisation with enough integrity, resourcefulness and determination to carry out the investigation is the A Team.

Does anyone have a contact number for them?
258

Son of Justice,

04/02/2009 11:00:03
#261 - "Let's get back to the facts, shall we?"

In your case, you would have to start with facts.

You tell us all that Scottish Conservative Murdo Fraser has said that "While only a conspiracy theorist would jump to the conclusion there is something sinister in this, it does seem remarkably careless for such an important document to have gone missing."

Then you go on to ask us whether "all you Labour/Unionist acitivist posters agree with Murdo Fraser that you do not need to be a conspiracy theorist to see something sinister in all this?"

I cannot speak for others but I do agree with Murdo that the SNP Council and Kenny MacAskill's SCS have betweeen them been remarkably careless to allow such an important document to have gone missing. However given that Murdo Fraser did not ever say that "you do not need to be a conspiracy theorist to see something sinister in all this" - indeed he implied quite the opposite - I am afraid that I cannot agree with that bit. Like much of the guff you post here, you just made it up.

What we appear to have here is an administrative foul-up between two SNP run institutions. But a bunch of CyberGnats - with some brass neck, it has to be said - are attempting to make bricks without straw and portray SNP incompetence as Scottish Labour electoral fraud.

We know that Gnats believe their own publicity - that is why you are all still so sore about the duffing up you got in Glenrothes - but the voting public know sour grapes and political smears when they see them.
259

yockel,

04/02/2009 11:00:58
271 Fb2093 Good try.
260

Miss H,

04/02/2009 11:03:14
243 Nothing in what you have said Duncan either today or yesterday has led me to believe that you understand the seriousness of this and that is why I think you are an idiot. If the marked up register had gone missing in Glasgow East I would be just as concerned as I am about it going missing in Glenrothes. It’s not about the result it is about the process.

You accused someone today of ‘desperately inflating the importance of this’ because they mentioned the UN and Zimbabwe. That person however is correct. The ability to verify that the number of votes cast matches the number of votes counted and that electors are entitled to vote and are who they say they are is probably the most important measurement of whether an election is fair. If the UN had been monitoring the Glenrothes by-election what do you think their report would have said once they became aware that the marked up register had become mysteriously missing?

One further point I would make – I don’t think that you or any of the other anti-SNP posters here appreciate that the SNP has bent over backwards to prevent this becoming a scandal. It is not in our interests (or the interests of any political party) to cast doubt on the integrity of the ballot. We asked for the marked up register on the 19 November. The Sheriff Court has had since then to look for it. If it was there they would have found it. They are not going to find it, neither will an internal investigation because it is something that requires to be investigated by the police.
261

Stan Butler,

04/02/2009 11:03:55
#227 Rodster

'Uncle Tom'

'Vichy type'


Oooo get the super gnat!!!!


262

yockel,

04/02/2009 11:07:21
Miss H, Nacnud is niether stupid nor does he fail to appreciate the seriousness of this that is why he is making such a fuss.
263

Son of Justice,

04/02/2009 11:08:58
#278 - If you really are a Reverend, you are an excellent advertisement for the Dawkins camp.

And if you really are in Bath (as opposed to in a bath) that is still not really far enough away for me.

Depends what you mean by massive, I suppose. Massive to me is Zimbabwe or maybe the hanging chads in Miami. It is not a spot of local adventurism - by whatever Party - which has had no material or longterm impact on who was elected.

The opposite of a balanced picture is a smear.
264

Stan Butler,

04/02/2009 11:09:07
#282 Miss h (are you really Miss Hooley from Balamory. I bet you are!)


'it is something that requires to be investigated by the police.'


And you trust the Brit Unionist fascist police force to find out the truth?

You are a Quisling, Uncle Tom Vichy type.

Only the A Team can carry out this investigation properly. Nothing else will do.

265

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/02/2009 11:12:38
#282 Well since you haven't engaged with me on this subject either today or yesterday until now I suggest you withhold your judgement on my idiocy. Seriously, I think that was an intemperate and unnecessary response to a point which was valid in the context of the discussion I was having.

"You accused someone today of ‘desperately inflating the importance of this’ because they mentioned the UN and Zimbabwe." No, I didn't. I accused someone today of ‘desperately inflating the importance of this’ because they said that had it happened in Zimbabwe the election would have been declared void. There is a world of difference. Do you agree with that poster's assertion? I doubt it. So once more, please read the discussion more carefully before wading in.

I'm glad the SNP has been at pains to prevent this turning into a scandal. You might want to have a word with Tricia Marwick about this though, since phrases like "It is almost beyond belief" don't really work as far as calming things down go...
266

Dave C.,

04/02/2009 11:12:58
Poster 3, "Observer", from Glasgow, says "I see the whole issue as being one that is designed to undermine the Scottish Parliamentry system". Why? This was a WESTMINSTER election. If any parliamentary system is undermined, it's the Westminster system.
267

Nevsky;,

Moscow 04/02/2009 11:14:01
It's all coming to an end for Labour. Holding things together by a thread at the moment but they are finished in Westminster and Scotland for 8 years at least.

Just can't wait for the internal meltdown that is on the horizon!





268

Son of Justice,

04/02/2009 11:17:20
#282 - "SNP has bent over backwards to prevent this becoming a scandal"

Yeah, we all noticed Tricia Marwick bending over backwards to do just that yesterday, in front of any TV camera or journalist she could find.

#284 - "The "hard fact" is that this register has mysteriously gone missing"

The hard fact is that somewhere between the SNP Council and Kenny MacAskill's Scottish Court Service, it has gone missing, mysteriously or otherwise.

In those circumstances it is very hard for anyone to see exactly why a bad smell should attach itself to Labour. This is nothing more than CyberGnats indulging themselves with a bit of political point-scoring, and with a gun firing blanks at that.
269

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/02/2009 11:17:30
#292 Really - you are looking forward to Cameron, Osborne and co. in power are you? Or are you labouring under the false impression that a Tory win in Westminster will herald independence for Scotland? I'm afraid it's not going to work like that.
270

IainGlasgow,

04/02/2009 11:18:53
"However, Labour, whose candidate, Lindsay Roy, won the by-election, has accused the SNP of being paranoid and pointed out that the sheriff clerk's office, which lost the register, was an arm of the Scottish Government run by the Nationalists."

The Sheriff Clerk's office is part of the Judiciary and thus separate from the local authority and the Government. Perhaps Mr Roy should keep quiet when he's not sure of the facts. If there was any electoral fraud its unlikely he was part of it so best for him to keep his head down and avoid the issue until 2010 when he'll no longer be able to use local issues in the same way thus probably won't retain his seat
271

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 04/02/2009 11:21:15
I've read some rubbish in my time, but this thread has to take the biscuit. The loss of this register is a serious problem because this is a very important check and balance in our system.

What do you get, nonsensical diatribe from serious dillusional and frankly disturbed individuals.

I saw Lindasy Roy on newsnight, oh dear this man is a teacher and Rector and comes out with that drivel, Jesus Christ.
272

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 04/02/2009 11:22:57
294 I don't normally use this type of comment but in your case I will, your ignorance is only surpassed by your stupidity.
273

yockel,

04/02/2009 11:24:24
Tormod 297 "I saw Lindasy Roy on newsnight, oh dear this man is a teacher and Rector and comes out with that drivel, Jesus Christ"

Give the guy a break he was also a leibour activist and best pal of Gordo for years. That must have done his brain some damage.
274

walter,

04/02/2009 11:26:06
There was not much difference in the votes cast in 2005 and 2007.
Turnout in 05 37366, in 07 36195 down 1171.

Votes cast
Lab 05,19395-07,19946 up 551
SNP 05,8731-07,13209 up 4478
Con 05,2651-07,1381 down 1270
L/D 05,4728-07.947 down 3781
SSP 05,705-07,212 down 493
UKIP 05,440-07,117 down 323
SCCUP 05,nil-07,296 up 296
Solidarity 05,nil-07,87 up 87
PPS 05,716-07,nil down 716
TOTAL up 5412 down 6583

It is plain to see where both Lab got their 551 extra votes from and where the SNP got their 4478 extra votes from.
The difference between the plus and minus votes cast is 1171 which matches the difference in the turnouts.
There is nothing fraudulent been done at the election but there is some mischief making going on since even if the missing register is a genuine mistake
275

Son of Justice,

04/02/2009 11:26:10
#293 - You are a CyberVillage idiot. Your posts are a series of non sequiturs. You wouldn't recognise a fact if it bit your leg. I suspect that even paid SNP apologist Miss H is embarrassed that your humourless and illogical posts are for her side.

I do not suppose you will go away, but do not expect any further replies. There is a limit to which I will engage with the obviously hard of thinking, and you have exceeded it by quite a margin.

By the way, I don't think you can have my posts removed simply because I do not conform to the Gnat Orthodoxy. We are not living in Wee Eck's separatist police state, where all anti-SNP sentiments are thoughtcrime, just yet.
276

Marga,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 11:26:27
Unexplained and unusual delay in calling the Glenrothes election - please add this element to the many unique and/or unexplained features of this election that is not being addressed.

Coupled with an inexplicably high number of postal votes (compared with and comparable to Glasgow East, except that there, it was the Glagow Fair), and highly untypical spread of postal votes favouring Labour. Don't forget, postal votes will have come in before Gordon Brown got involved.

Unusually, too, I imagine, after the postal votes were opened, the press carried a "leak" of the results, implying that Labour was delighted but not giving figures. Having observed the SNP at work at first hand in this election, it is not credible that they were uniquely inefficient in pushing the postal vote system with their electorate. Did Labour push their electorate, and if so, how?

You don't have to be paranoid to feel uneasy about this element, for me the most difficult to explain. Everything else, as Miss H. says, can be explained in one way or another. But the postal vote result cannot be explained.
277

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 04/02/2009 11:28:05
301 I shouldn't be surprised who can forget when asked by Glen Campbell about the budget for his School was clueless and when giving the figures disputed them.

So how can you dispute figures that when asked previous you did not know, what a utter numptie!
278

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 04/02/2009 11:29:16
Speaking of numpties look at post 303.
279

Son of Justice,

04/02/2009 11:30:02
#299 - see post 303, clown. You too.

Do the Gnats welcome folk like you into membership, or you all they can get? If the former, will the last person to leave Scotland please shut and chain the gate?
280

yockel,

04/02/2009 11:31:13
Someone with long experience of Mr Roy said to me at the time of the election, Roy was no fool, he would not have taken on the nomination had he not known he stood a good chance of winning.

Prescot claimed shortly after the election that he had know for quite a while that they were going to win.

Just shows how wrong those polsters can get it. No?
281

malcolmcean,

04/02/2009 11:31:48
What was it David Cameron said should be the attitude of the unionist to democracy in Scotland? Something along the lines of 'rather an imperfect democracy than a broken union'.

It is not great surprise that, when such a suspcious development as this happens, people question the role of the parties of the union.

The relationship the British unionist parties have had with democrcy has never been a particularly intimate one: India 1911-1947 (majority wishes of Inian congress repeadedly ignored); Ireland 1921 (all-Ireland mandate for indepedence ignored); Derry 1921-1970 (gerrymandering of vote); Scottish home rule elections 1979 (the will of the voting majority ignored)....the list could go on and on.

282

British flag,

04/02/2009 11:32:40
See the children are out again
283

Esox Hunter,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 11:33:06
Yes Labour got their vote out just in the same way that the SNP seem to be able to motivate hoards of small minded people to post comments on this site !! What a load of drivel regarding the fairness of the Glenrothes election. The majority wasn't 7 70 or even 700 ! It was 7000 for Gods sake. The SNP have always boasted about how many activists they can get onto the ground. Why not just accept that you blew it in Glenrothes; even smarmy Salmond took the blame so why the bleating now. And if there has been a cockup with the Register its between an SNP run Council and a department of an SNP Goverment !!
284

Observer,,

Glasgow 04/02/2009 11:34:01
291 I suggest you read this thread in total as I have just done. Nowhere does anyone mention Westminster apart from you. But an outside observer reading this thread could reasonably conclude that the Scots believe their political parties and paid officials are all up to no good and between them couldn't be trusted to run a bath. I am not suggesting for a moment that these missing registers are not a serious issue and they clearly need to be found. But their absence does not justify the wild accusations and counter accusations which are being made here.
285

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 04/02/2009 11:35:46
308 Unlike you I live in the real world, I am not a member yet, but will probably join to help because of idiots like you, who is either being deliberate in provoking an obtuse discussion or are you dillusional that a basic democratic check and balance has been destroyed.

You do know what a controlled document is?
286

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/02/2009 11:36:13
#310 Indeed, and wasn't it also the "Unionist" parties who denied women the vote, and legalised slavery? They also precipitated the 1st and 2nd World Wars. Not to mention the terrible barbarism of their colonial approaches to the Middle and Far East, and Africa.

Yes, those darned "Unionists" have a lot to answer for.
287

Breezy,

Argyll 04/02/2009 11:39:33
#267
'No smoke without fire.'

Remember Remember the 6th of November ?
288

Ananurhing,

04/02/2009 11:39:39
#290 Duncan

I didn't say the result would be declared void. I said invalid, ie unable to be corroborated. Same principle applies here.
289

The Tin Man,

04/02/2009 11:39:51
Is this thread a result of the Care in the Community program, or do half the posters today just write any random thoughts that enters their heads at the time?
290

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 11:40:56
#286 "a spot of local adventurism"

Oh, that's beautiful. That could be the new "mis-spoke", or "terminological inexactitude", or "economical with the truth".

Now that we know that you think a warehouse full of people churning out fake votes is just a bit of high spirits, we can safely ignore anything else you say for the rest of time.
291

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/02/2009 11:42:57
#319 You said the UN would "declare the result invalid". That doesn't be "unable to be corroborated", it means an invalid result, which I would summarize as a void election.
292

Miss H,

04/02/2009 11:45:56
290 Maybe you should read what I said more carefully as well Duncan. We first asked for the marked up register on 19 November. The story of its inexplicable loss became public at the start of February.

That’s long enough to conduct a fingertip search of the entire court building fifty times over.

There is no chance now of this being ‘calmed down’ because it is clear that the register is not going to be found.
293

Son of Justice,

04/02/2009 11:46:17
Ah, I see.

Q When is the SNP not running the Scottish Government?

A When a mistake or problem occurs. Then Salmond, MacAskill et al magically transform into Pontius Pilate, and it all becomes the responsibility of the nearest Government employee - say, the Chief Executive of the SCS.

If some junior Civil Servant leaves a Home Office laptop on a train, the SNP calls for the Home Secretary to resign. An (according the CyberGnats anyway) ultra-critical marked up register, whose loss threatens the very fabric of our democracy , disappears in the hands of two SNP-run institutions. Any calls for MacAskill's resignation? An admission of some small involvement even? No, thought not.

Eleanor Emberson is not so far as I know a member of Scottish Labour, by the way. So what's your next ploy to link the disappearance to Labour?

The most likely explanation is an age old and hardly unknown example of Government carelessness. Some junior clerk in the local Court misplaced a pile of papers. Unfortunate but it happens. Move on, nothing to see here. But then you Gnats can't build a political smear campaign out of the mundane, can you?

294

Pontificatus Maximus of Avignon,

04/02/2009 11:46:38
Sems like the scumbag Labour Party's tricks of " vote early, vote often " tactics will come back to haunt it.

Hahahahahahahahahaha!!
295

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 04/02/2009 11:47:55
Who is the Cabinet Secretary resposible for this mess? Resignation is appropriate.
296

Miss H,

04/02/2009 11:48:12
323 Can you give me an example of any election which the UN has overseen where there was no way to verify if the electors who voted were who they said they were and there was no way of verifying if the numbers of votes cast matched the number of votes counted?
297

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 11:48:30
#326 "When is the SNP not running the Scottish Government?"

It is. What it is NOT running is the judiciary, which is of necessity independent of government and which is responsible for the register. Try to keep up with the grown-ups conversation, poppet.
298

Son of Justice,

04/02/2009 11:48:39
#321 - I see you don't do irony. Probably think it's women's work.
299

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/02/2009 11:50:59
#325 So what you meant was the SNP bent over backwards to prevent this becoming a scandal, but then went hell for leather in the press to stoke it up once it was clear the register was missing.

Quite a different slant on reality, isn't it.
300

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 11:51:02
#332 I see you don't even understand the meaning of the word "irony".
301

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 11:51:37
#333 You're aware that the SNP don't control the press, right?
302

AJ Fife,

04/02/2009 11:53:39
The 'creeping hand' of Brown style democracy appears to be at work.

Keir Hardie must be spinning like a Dervish in his grave!
303

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 04/02/2009 11:54:07
Who is the responsible (ie irresponsible) Cabinet Secretary? Is it MacAskill? Is he back from Canada yet?
304

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/02/2009 11:55:06
#330 But there was a way - the ballot papers existed, were counted and verified, and the marked registers existed, and were verified. All of this happened at the election.

What we are dealing with now is a post-election loss of some of that paperwork. Quite frankly, the UN would have left, quite satisfied, long before this loss occurred.

Again you are inflating this. The registers existed, were handled and verified in the usual way at the election and at the count, and have been lost subsequently.

You cannot cast doubt on the result because of that. The result was verified before the registers were lost.
305

Miss H,

04/02/2009 11:55:16
333 Essentially, yes. Having given every opportunity first for the situation to be resolved without any publcity.

It is of course the case that Labour must also have been aware that the marked up registers are gone. But they kept it quiet. Acting responsibly no doubt.
306

Alastair the First,

04/02/2009 11:56:05
Duncan is clearly rattled on this one. Clearly he and his pals realise that Labour are likely to be rumbled yet again cheating and acting like the crooks they are. So they try to deflect the story and come up with a ludicrous theory that somehow it's all the fault of the SNP. Sorry Duncan, but like the hysterical Labour response yesterday you're just digging yourself deeper into a hole. At least you're one of the more coherent posters, but I think you realsie you're backing a loser.
307

malcolmcean,

04/02/2009 11:56:13
Duncan@ 317:

I am not entirely sure what point it is you think you are making.

All of those issues have nothing to do with the political machinations of British nationalists trying to fudge democracy in order to maintain the union (or rather the supremacy of the Westminster political establishment).

308

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 04/02/2009 11:56:33
Just on the Scottish news: Salmond will make a statement (ie offer an apology) to Parliament this afternoon. He doesn't like apologising. Someone (MacAskill?) will fall.
309

Son of Justice,

04/02/2009 11:56:39
#331 - So - poppet - Kenny MacAskill is NOT Scottish Minister for Justice, and one of his direct responsibilities is NOT the Scottish Court Service? I must put my CJ colleagues straight then.

The Judiciary is not the same thing as the SCS. This grown-up is well apprised of that which I speak. Feel free to try harder to keep up.

Patronising, irritating, ill-informed. Working on the principle that if you shout loudly and offensively enough, the garbage you spout will magically become fact. You're not Alex Salmond, are you?
310

Number 6,

Germany 04/02/2009 11:56:50
Wow !! the unionista handlersa have called a 3 line whip today. Alas, all the hectoring, foaming at the mouth, hand-wringing and mock outragew of the Labour flock will not detract from the fact that once again, this institutionally corrupt cabal are under investigation for underhand tactics.

The difference in attitude towards these criminals in South Britain, compared to Scotland is remarkable.

Down south the public are rightly showing their disgust and anger with Labour while North of the border, their pathetic spineless flock continue to hold on to their coat-tails while being dragged through the mud.

As the First Minister says, only in Scotland would you find people who believe they are uniquely incapable of running their own affairs.

That after all unionistas, is what it boils down to.

All stand for the unionista anthem :

"We cannae dae it on oor own"

"We cannae dae it on oor own"

"We cannae dae it on oor own"

1 2 3 ... your back in the room.
311

ecosseman,

fact not propaganda 04/02/2009 11:57:00
REMEMBER THE ARRAN BOAT FARCE,NOW GLENROTHES.WHERE WILL LABOUR STRIKE NEXT,PLEASE MR JIM MURPHY GIVE US A CLUE.
312

Ananurhing,

04/02/2009 11:57:18
#323 The UN have declared many election results in Zimbabwe invalid. Don't think they've ever been able to void any of them. Slight difference, and you're no stranger to pedantry yourself.
313

fritigern,

Inverness 04/02/2009 11:58:08
#222 Unfortunately I was not being parochial, my comments were more about postal voting generally rather than just in Glenrothes. The communities to which I refer have a much greater presence in places like Birmingham than in Glenrothes. But can you or anyone else guarantee that intimidation and bribery do not, or even can not, occur with postal voring. Voting at a polling station makes both intimidation and bribery futile.
314

AJ Fife,

04/02/2009 11:58:38
#330,

You've got to admit, if the Labour Party can make up reasons for invading a country and killing thousands, tampering with a bi-election result is small beer indeed.

315

Scottish 'N British,

04/02/2009 11:58:41
344

FAR too bright for the self-serving narrow-minded Nasty Numpties 'roon here...
316

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 11:59:31
#343 "Just on the Scottish news: Salmond will make a statement (ie offer an apology) to Parliament this afternoon. He doesn't like apologising. Someone (MacAskill?) will fall."

Right here, right now, using my own name not some coward's pseudonym, I bet you £50,000 that this does not happen. Answer below if you accept.
317

The Master,

04/02/2009 11:59:46
OK, just for the sake of argument, let's suppose that I take the Nats' latest conspiracy theory seriously (McCrone was getting a bit long in the tooth, after all!)

Everything else being equal, the question arises as to why anyone capable of orchestrating electoral fraud would consider their culty separation cause a big enough threat to merit such covert action.

Everything seems to point to their attracting support on the basis of their non separation related policies (like the good Tartan Tories we are, we'll freeze your CT and then introduce poll tax 2 which will relieve the burden on your bank account every month if you have a relatively low income but insist on living in a big house).

Whatever, it's becoming increasingly obvious that separation is a leap in the dark which Scots just don't have the faith or the inclination to make (compare Quebec's abortive flirtation with separation in recent years).

All in all, the culty cause of Scottish Nationalism just isn't a significant enough phenomenon to merit covert action from elements within the Labour Party, MI5, the Chuckle Brothers or whoever else you Nats are currently fingering: end of!
318

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 04/02/2009 12:01:27
The register was in the keeping of the SNP run Fife Council. The Scottish Courts Service, which appears to have lost the register (but can't say for sure), is run by the SNP run Scottish Government. This gross inefficiency cannnot be tolerated. The responsible Cabinet Secretary (or Secretaries) must resign.
319

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 12:02:54
#344 You appear to be under the bizarre impression that Kenny McAskill is a filing clerk.
320

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 12:03:44
#353 "Everything else being equal, the question arises as to why anyone capable of orchestrating electoral fraud would consider their culty separation cause a big enough threat to merit such covert action."

How many billions a year is Scottish oil worth to the UK economy?
321

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 04/02/2009 12:04:32


352 Revolutionary Campbell

Just £50,000? Hope you are not gambling with church funds. Make it a more worthwhile figure and I'll consider your challenge. However, I require the Scottish Courts Service to confirm that you actually have the money.
322

Miss H,

04/02/2009 12:04:51
339 Rubbish. At the verification count they match the number of electors who are recorded as having voted and the number of papers in each box.

The only way however to verify that the electors who voted did in fact vote is through the information on the marked up register and the only way that anybody other than the returning officer can verify that the number of votes cast matched the number of votes counted is through the marked up register.

That is why by law we have a right to that information.

There would be absolutely sod all point Duncan in even having voter registration if anyone could just walk into a polling station and say I am Mrs Bloggs of 1 the High Street and I am here to vote. Or send in a postal voting form with Mrs Blogg's details because I canvassed her and she said she was going on holiday and couldn't be arsed voting but I decided that she really wanted to vote for my party so I am sending this postal voting form in, which I have downloaded from the internet, on her behalf.

Yes, Duncan, that is a totally acceptable way to behave and we don't need to worry if all the records of people who vcted like that have gone missing so they can't be questioned about whether they did actually vote or someone voted for them.
323

Ewan Randall,

04/02/2009 12:06:18
(#1) – (#2) - (Nevsky;) – Do papers held in the records office of the sheriff clerk never disappear, or do they on rare occasions?
Why has it taken two and a half months for those enquiring after the papers to discover they were missing?

As the registers were supposed to be available one week after the election why has it taken so long for the SNP to make public their concerns?

Is it unusual for the electoral commission to have serious concerns when material disappears?

Do you have any evidence the Labour party has tampered with the votes and then the registers?

When you talk about four times the average postal vote, are you not aware that this would cover a range between figures higher than the average and those lower than the average?

(#3) – (Observer,) – Do we know if the register was signed and dated at the court?

Why after a number of electoral mishaps do we not have a frame work of responsibility in place?

Why aren’t there names, times and dates of access, with a list of those responsible for materials at any given time?

As there seems to be a lack of coordination and accountability in procedure in the Scottish electoral system, isn’t the system itself at this time designed to undermine itself at the drop of a hat?

If everything had gone totally without a hitch would there now be a conspiracy theory suggesting the process went off too smoothly to be credible?

Are there really vested interests in the media who wish to portray Scotland as a country unable to run a bath?

Could there not be vested interests in the media which wish to highlight events when Scotland runs its bath without putting the plug in?

Isn’t that what the media do in western world countries?

Do we not have politicians who make their opponents look stupid and incompetent?

Why wouldn’t the people equate stupidity with incompetence and then believe people could use this as proof we are small, stupid and prone to paranoia?

(#6) – (Marga) – Do you not
324

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/02/2009 12:06:57
#340 Haha, that's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it.

I "give every opportunity for the situation to be resolved without any publicity".

You "keep things quiet".

Breathtaking Miss H. Surely even typing that made you embarrassed. The SNP says nothing for the general good, but Labour says nothing because they've got something to hide.

Hilarious. Pathetic. Beneath you.
325

Son of Justice,

04/02/2009 12:07:14
#340 - "It is of course the case that Labour must also have been aware that the marked up registers are gone. But they kept it quiet. Acting responsibly no doubt"

Knowing Scottish Labour, it is entirely possible that they hadn't got around to asking for them yet to update their own promises.

Of course they may just have been told that they had gone missing, accepted philosophically that foul-ups do occur, shouted a bit at the local Court people and moved on - rather than take the SNP option of using it as an excuse to mount a political smear campaign.
326

Robert Mason,

Larkhall 04/02/2009 12:07:48
# 343 WUM

I understand that Kenny MacAskill is also to make a statement. Looks like the end for Kenny. A good lad too.
327

Ewan Randall,

04/02/2009 12:07:55
(#6) – (Marga) – Do you not think that if there are many people who are sick and tired of the voting process they may think of either not turning out or use a postal vote instead?

(#11) – (Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel) – What is it that makes you believe that electoral fraud is now common in elections in Scotland?

Can you back up your claims with evidence?

(#16) – (Nevsky;) – Do you believe as I do that there should be duplicate receipts, one for those who have delivered too?



(#27) – (Wynn) – Isn’t “but our ignorance comes from our media” a contradiction in terms?
(#42) – (fifeis great) – Who said the SNP lost the votes?

(#45) – (Scottish 'N British) – Will another inquiry be a damning indictment into Mr Salmond’s management of Scotland, or a damning indictment of the electoral management system, if there is actually one?


(#48) – (Salem) – Are you totally sure that the missing records are irrelevant in the context of the outcome of the election in Glenrothes?
(#88) – (Wardog) – Are you sure that the union is being dismantled brick by brick?

Are the old brick not being replaced by more realistic new bricks?




328

Robert Mason,

Larkhall 04/02/2009 12:08:56
Beware Miss H. She/he is really a man and is a paid servant of the SNP. Minimum wage of course.
329

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/02/2009 12:09:09
#347 I apologise if you think there is a difference there that I have glossed over. I don't think it changes the substance of any of the conversation. The UN wouldn't declare this election invalid, because it was conducted fairly and openly. The loss that happened happened *after* the election had been verified and the result declared. The comparison with Zimbabwe is inflammatory and inaccurate.
330

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 04/02/2009 12:09:29
I really hope, for the sake of our democracy, that the missing papers turn up. However, if they have been missing for so long, chances are they have already been fed to the shredder. I suspect beaurocratic incompetence rather than deliberate foul play. However, it is very embarrassing for Scotland, and most unfortunate for the already damaged reputation of the Labour Party. Some mud will stick, whether deserved or not.
331

Ewan Randall,

04/02/2009 12:10:51
(#362) - (Robert Mason) - What makes you believe it is likely to be the end for Kenny MacAskill?
332

yockel,

04/02/2009 12:10:57
353 The Master you forget gordo was fighting for his political survival nothing to do with Scotland.
333

Robert Mason,

Aberdeen 04/02/2009 12:12:38
367 Ewan

His SNP colleagues can't stand him.
334

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 12:12:56
#367 He doesn't believe that. Nobody does. I've offered £50,000 if it happens, but strangely no Unionist wants my money.
335

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/02/2009 12:13:04
#358 None of what you say has a bearing on the importance of this issue. I happily accept that the marked registers are retained for a very good reason, and all parties should be able to access them after the event to verify and study the election.

But them going missing *after* the event does not impact of the validity of the election result itself. It cannot.

In your imaginary equivalent UN-monitored election, the UN observers have already gone home quite satisfied.
336

Son of Justice,

04/02/2009 12:13:37
#355 - "You appear to be under the bizarre impression that Kenny McAskill is a filing clerk"

I'm not sure that Mr MacAskill could be trusted with such a responsible job as filing, frankly. "Bizarre" and "Kenny MacAskill" - now there are two words which ought to appear much more often in the same sentence.

By the way, Reverend, and way off topic - does your God know that you spend so much time posting guff on these threads, and what is his view on that? Shouldn't you be out saving souls and all that rather than abusing your fellows in quite such an unpleasant manner?
337

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/02/2009 12:15:23
#370 While I agree with you in principle, Rev, I would be a bit more circumspect if I were you. There are those within the SNP that would gladly take any opportunity to get rid of MacAskill. Politics is not always a business of straightforward cause and effect.

All that said, I think it's very unlikely MacAskill will be pushed out today.
338

yockel,

04/02/2009 12:18:31
SoJ agree with you on Kenny but this Westminster election and a test of Gordo's bounce. Far more important than any wee scrap with the SNP.
339

Rodster,

Glasgow 04/02/2009 12:24:28
#346 Do not mention the Arran boat in 2007 elections ecosseman Duncan and Grahamski say it never happened fraud election deniers .
I repeat again not only doesx the Glenrtohes result have a semll about it sso do a lot of the individual results in 2007 election .
too many surprises there too
340

Ewan Randall,

04/02/2009 12:25:52
(#369) – (Robert Mason) – What makes you believe his SNP colleagues can’t stand him?

What relevance would his popularity, or lack of, on a statement on the matter of Glenrothes?
341

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/02/2009 12:26:14
#375 I have never even mentioned it, Rodster. On what possible basis can you claim that I "say it never happened"?

Honestly, you are a logic-free zone.
342

Son of Justice,

04/02/2009 12:26:15
The main value to political Parties of the marked up registers is that we can find out which voters actually voted and in which areas of the Constituency, so that campaigning can be targeted more accurately next time round. That is likely what the SNP wanted the Register for. I have never heard of any Party wanting to query, or even crosscheck, a historic Election result using the marked up register. There will be plenty of copies of the actual Register (unmarked) still floating around, incidentally.

Most of the other voter stuff, such as who is actually on the Electoral Register and where they live, and which voters are registered for a Postal Vote, can be gleaned from the Register itself. Parties in Glenrothes - as everywhere else - will want the new Register for that next time round. The one used last time will be well out of date.
343

Son of Justice,

getting out before I catch it from them 04/02/2009 12:29:30
#377 - The SNP and all who sail in her are largely a logic-free zone, Duncan.
344

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 12:30:42
#372 "By the way, Reverend, and way off topic - does your God know that you spend so much time posting guff on these threads, and what is his view on that?"

His view is that lies and the work of evil men should not go unchallenged.
345

Rodster,

Glasgow 04/02/2009 12:31:17
it was in your other guise then as Grahamski I get confused you both talk the same p@sh it is confusing.
So you admit to the missing ballot boxes mysteriously falling overboard in a seat that ended up switching to SNP.
I am also glad to note that you agree that there were a lot of iffy results in 2007 election.
346

Miss H,

04/02/2009 12:32:45
361 Garbage. The entire marked up register has never gone missing before as I am sure you know. In the incidents referrred to in Ayrshire and Renfrewshire it was individual polling districts that were lost - not the whole thing.

You know perfectly well that the whole thing stinks and the more you try to deflect attention the worse the stink gets.
347

Alastair the First,

04/02/2009 12:34:27
371 Duncan: Yes it does - by checking who is marked as having voted, you can establish how many votes were cast by people who couldn't vote - dead people for example. You are in a desperate position and you have lost the argument. You are deliberately trying to deviate from the point. The suspicion is that Labour have been supplying fake votes - the register could show whether or not that was the case (and if you then referenced any fakes against the actual ballot papers you could show it was Labour that did it - I think we all accept they are the only suspects here).
348

British flag,

04/02/2009 12:36:19
So the SNP have been playing where they should not have been! It's about time salmond kept his children in order!
349

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/02/2009 12:36:22
#381 Now you appear to be delusional. Please don't claim that I "admit to" or "agree" with things that you have claimed, when I have either made no comment on them or have pointed out the complete lack of evidence for them.

You argue irrationally. It is a pointless and fruitless exercise which will only result in you eventually being ignored.
350

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 12:36:52
#354 WUM

Which Westminster Cabinet Minister resigned over the following loss of sensitive data?

MoD computer hard drive missing
10 Oct 08
More secret files found on train
15 Jun 08
'Breach' caused terror file loss
12 Jun 08
More MoD laptop thefts revealed
21 Jan 08
'No cover-up' on lost driver data
18 Dec 07
Discs 'worth £1.5bn' to criminals
28 Nov 07
Timeline: Sensitive papers lost
19 Jul 04
Carr release 'is not compromised'
13 May 04
Second spy loses laptop
28 Mar 00
351

Miss H,

04/02/2009 12:37:28
360 Why do you think they said nothing?

It beggars belief to imagine that they did not know.

The SNP has been asking for the marked up register for over 3 months and getting nowhere. Of course Labour would have known about that, everyone in Central Fife would have known.

If I was in the Labour Party I would have been saying right we need to be the ones to call for an enquiry here. It would have been the obvious thing to do given that all the speculation re the postal votes pointed at them.

So why didn't they? Genuine question - why do you think the Glenrothes CLP said and did nothing?
352

Marga,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 12:38:13
Ewan - in 6 I was only quoting facts and figures, hoping to add to the debate (you would agree that there is a debate going on here, I think).

On postal voting: I've had to complain to the Electoral Commission in London about a postal voting anomaly, and corresponded with the local authority involved. The problam in my case was caused by the LA concerned slavishly following regulations. So much for the efficiency of the UK voting system.

We all have opinions, Ewan, and are free to express them, but let's just centre the debate on personal experience and facts, and not flaming people we don't agree with.
353

Rodster,

Glasgow 04/02/2009 12:38:30
so do you agree or disagree Duncan? easy even for a denying unionist like you.
354

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/02/2009 12:40:10
#383 It may have escaped your notice, Alastair, but it is perfectly possible to check right now whether the register contained the names of dead people. You don't need the marked register for that.

If there was any evidence that dead people had been given votes, *then* you would need to check the marked register to see if they had actually voted. The checks that you want can quite happily be carried out now.

Your desperation to throw accusations at Labour has led you down a complete dead-end.
355

Scottish 'N British,

04/02/2009 12:40:17
(#376) – (Ewan Randall) – Is your primary existence on these threads only to ask questions?

(#376) - (Ewan Randall) - Has anyone ever pointed out to you that you are a pompous ass?
356

Grahamski,

Falkirk 04/02/2009 12:40:36
375
I did not deny that ballot boxes were lost. I merely pointed out that the claim of 150,000 votes lost in the Clyde was typical nationalist exaggeration. Just like walking disaster, Christina McKelvie's £500 billion claim on Newsnight. £500 billion, are you mental?
357

Stan Butler,

04/02/2009 12:41:14

I suppose we should all be grateful that the Labour Party didn't blow up the Sheriff Court to destroy the evidence like what they dun with the Twin Towers. The Labour Party dun that as well. I seen a documentary on the internet all about it, so it must be true.
358

Duncan in Edinburgh,

04/02/2009 12:41:15
#387 So that fevered, drooling SNP supporters could generate huge conspiracy theories on the back of it?

Honestly, perhaps because they knew it was already being looked into?

Silly argument, Miss H.