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Scots jobs face axe as MoD looks to scale back naval shipbuilding

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Published Date: 01 July 2009
TWO Royal Navy shipyards on the Clyde are facing the axe under secret plans to make huge savings from the bill for two new aircraft carriers, it was claimed last night.
The yards at Scotstoun and Govan are said to be earmarked for possible closure by the Ministry of Defence, putting up to 4,000 jobs at risk.

The claims have emerged in a leaked memo the day after it was revealed that the navy's new aircraft carriers are running £1 billion over budget.

Work on the two warships – HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales – had been delayed in December but was due to begin next week.

The contracts for the 65,000-tonne vessels – the biggest and most powerful warships the UK has ever built – are due to be completed by 2014.

But a leaked memo from Alan Johnston, the chief executive of BVT, which owns Govan and Scotstoun, plus a third shipyard at Portsmouth, is said to forecast savings of up to half a billion pounds by closing two of them.

The memo reportedly states that the MoD is prepared to pay for thousands of redundancies to scale down Britain's capacity for building warships.

The move is understood to have been agreed in principle with the MoD as part of an exclusive BVT deal with Whitehall to build the Royal Navy's future ships. Mr Johnston is said to have written: "BVT has committed to review its industrial footprint in light of the projected reduction in UK shipbuilding requirements post completion of the CVF (aircraft carrier) programme (current projections show that at the time the MoD requirements could be delivered from a single BVT facility) and MoD has committed to underwrite the necessary closure costs.

"These one-off rationalisation/ investment costs are estimated to be between £115m to £165m for redundancies, site closure, environmental clean-up, equipment disposal and asset write-downs."

Last night, a spokesman for BVT said he could "not deny" that a memo existed. However, he said the company was not expecting to close any facilities in the "foreseeable" future.

The spokesman added: "We have a solid order book for the next seven to eight years and are in the strongest position that the shipbuilding industry in the UK has seen for a generation."

A spokesman for the MoD said it had to look at the consequences of reduced demand for navy shipbuilding. He added: "There will be a need for rationalisation and efficiency measures going forward."

The Scottish Government last night warned the revelations would cause "deep concern" among the workforce and communities on the Clyde. Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said: "I have recently spoken with Alan Johnston, who had assured me the company was working to secure the long-term future of the yards.

"I will be contacting BVT to demand assurances over their commitment to the Clyde yards and the long-term future of Scotland's shipbuilding expertise."

Scottish Lib Dem leader Tavish Scott said: "Labour must immediately end the uncertainty surrounding the future of naval shipyards on the Clyde. They can not leave hard-working men and woman high and dry."

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 01 July 2009 9:48 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: British armed forces
 
1

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 01/07/2009 00:04:19
There is simply no argument to be had here: the country needs a decent well equipped modern military and Scotland can provide the skills and the products necessary. That's it.
2

,

01/07/2009 00:05:45
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3

Forward not Back,

01/07/2009 00:26:50
Surely this can't be true? After all, it's only the evil Tories that will cut public spending according to Crash.
4

Iainbroch,

01/07/2009 00:31:23
The Union Dividends are coming thick and fast now that the scorched Earth policy in relation to Scotland is on the move!
5

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 01/07/2009 00:35:29
#3

Get a grip. I don't agree with the poster Jerry Springer but I'd rather listen to his views than see the threads ruined by you. Posters have a right to be heard and you have a right to disagree but try and do so intelligently.
6

john z,

edinburgh 01/07/2009 00:38:06
I cannot believe even the current dim english government would close both these yards. Roll on independence.

No doubt Jim p(m)uppet Murphy will be on air tomorrow teling us all how Scotland needs to lose shipbuilding capacity, and how it is good for Scotland if we close the yards.

And before anyone witters on about ship orders only as part of the UK- the yards can compete for english or any other European orders in an independent Scotland. It's called European law.

So all those guys who work in Scotstoun might lose their jobs - but I bet they'll all vote Labour again at the next election.

Kill the coal mines, kill the shipyards. What a wonderful union benefit.
7

,

01/07/2009 01:07:15
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8

oder,

Scotland 01/07/2009 01:39:19
yep Broon can save the world with his sixty billion pound carbon tax but cant find a measly 5 billion to save and keep viable"Britain`s" shipbuilding industry! well if westminster cant do the job we will just have to do it ourselves!independence seems to only be the only option left.
9

Edward,

01/07/2009 01:52:43
Hate to say this, but I knew this would happen
These projects were ill thought out, they were more to do with Brown's vanity than anything else
Before the recession the UK were in a tight spot to afford them, which is why they decisions to go ahead were so drawn out. Now were in the teeth of a recession, these objects of vanity are the last thing that money needs spending on!
I will predict that one or both will be for the chop
10

Fletty73,

Stirling 01/07/2009 02:12:10
4000 less Labour voters then.
Just Jerry Springer and Maddox left.
11

Dumbill,

Faraway 01/07/2009 03:17:12
How many military orders does the neutral, independent, Irish Republic get from the UK government, or from the European Union, for that matter?
12

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 01/07/2009 03:40:50
Here we go once again, the scaremongering unionist machine is at it, unless you morons vote for the liebor party then we will not build the ships on the Clyde. You know what, if the navy does not give the order to the MOST EXPERIENCED SHIP BUILDING YARDS IN THE WORLD THEN SOMEONE ELSE WILL. Have a nice day unionists your tine has arrived, EXIT STAGE LEFT............
13

Ewan M,

01/07/2009 03:52:26
What utter hpocrisy from the SNP lunacy. They criticise the UK government for these potential cuts while themselves willing to sacrifice ten of thousands of defence jobs in the pursuit of indepedence while also saying these jobs would be 'fine'.

And they are are the party for the Scotland what a joke, they are the party for themselves.
14

Ewan M,

01/07/2009 03:55:01
Scot Indy shouldn't you be making posts about Arnie Schwarzenegger in the LA times on matters that actually affect you? When was the last time you were on the CLyde you plonker?
15

,

01/07/2009 04:55:40
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16

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 01/07/2009 05:42:17
#15 & 16 Ewan M

NATO procurement rules mean that any shipyard in the alliance can compete for procurement contracts in any member state.

There is nothing to stop these yards from competing with other shipyards for other contracts.

But the question that must be asked is are these yards still able to compete.

The once mighty Clyde is a distant memory my friend. The place that once produced half the worlds tonnage is now just a shadow of itself hanging on by a few Navy Contracts and the odd CalMac ferry.

Oil companies are now being told here in Asia that there is a 5 year waiting list if you want to build a drilling platform.

You would think that as an Oil Producing country with a tradition of shipbuilding that we would be able compete in this area.

But none of these orders seem to be going to Scotland.

If you find the answer to why that is you will also find out why the last yards are closing.

I know, I am the descendant of men who worked in the yards.
17

,

01/07/2009 05:43:49
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18

For Scotland,

Sutherland 01/07/2009 06:11:22
I have heard from a source that Rosyth is also going to be closed down,this is from a reliable source not hearsay,I have no reason to doubt this.Time I was told is in next couple of years.
Hopefully they will take Trident to the Thames as well.
19

Geoff,

sa 01/07/2009 06:33:33
If the labour Government does close these yards then this will be a significant nail in the Union coffin. Also after all that Gordon Brown has said about the carrier programme and Scotlands role in it and future projects-well could any prime minister in the history of the United kingdom have less credibility?
If Gordon brown and his merry band were to run a company as they have run this project with all the dithering and delays attendant, that company would have been long bankrupted.
118 KampungHighlander-good post and sentiment and Uni/Nat agendas apart, you have highlighted the key question-why can the Clyde not compete with Far East shipyards with overflowing order books? Either Scottish yards are just nor up to it productivity wise or the far east yards are paying their men slave wages or some explanation in between.A case for a return to some form of protectionism?
20

Baillie Guthrie,

Caithness 01/07/2009 07:05:16
Two new carriers, three new Nuclear subs, support vessels, Eurofighters - all on borrowed money.

And no enemy in sight.

And the taxpayer is footing the bill.

And don't tell me the Tories would be any different.

This crazy spending has got to stop or all of us, and our bairns bairns will be sitting on hilltops digging for peat and gutting rabbits (there will always be rabbits)

21

ddmc,

01/07/2009 07:09:47
Aircraft carriers have had there day as a projection of power ala US style, sunburst missiles means even the smallest nation can take them out. If a shooting war starts with Iran expect the US to lose at least 1 carrier.

#20 If they close Rosyth what will happen to the 3 polaris subs moored there ?
22

,

01/07/2009 07:11:02
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23

,

01/07/2009 07:12:03
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24

EnglishMike,

Stockport 01/07/2009 07:12:31
The first requirement for a strong defence or offence force is a thriving economy and a united populace.

These are what Germany had, 1935-1939, with Britain not far behind. It was what France, Poland and the Balkans, and even the US did not have.

See “The German Paradox” by Antoni Plutinsky, 1933.

Is General Jackson saying that the weakness of France in 1940 was because she was not part of a political union with Britain, or that she had revalued her currency in 1931? Or if there had been economic union, would Chamberlain’s rearmament policy triumphed over France’s devotion to
Bank of England/Attlee/Major/Brownian/Cameron Prudence, and not the other way about?
25

madrab,

Edinburgh 01/07/2009 07:20:27
Vote Labour - Vote Jobs for England
26

bonnietiler,

01/07/2009 07:25:21
But why are the Edinburgh trams stopping at Gogar, and not going all the way to the airport?
27

,

01/07/2009 07:27:59
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28

,

01/07/2009 07:31:22
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29

mad world,

01/07/2009 07:42:36
Food for thought!
BVT was a tie up between BAE and the VT group, and BAE recently bought VTs shipbuilding facilities in Portsmouth.. At least i'm sure I read that somewhere.. Not all jobs for the English though as the MOD are moving its School of Marine Engineering (HMS Sultan) to Wales in 2 years
30

Baillie Guthrie,

01/07/2009 07:43:17
#24 Sorry Suzanne
'Hope they've got plenty lucky white heather when they need protection, mind you'

Oh well...white heather...very funny troll joke.

So Scotland will just have to rely on NATO, like everybody else in Europe has for the past 50 years.









31

M78,

Tain 01/07/2009 07:43:34
sorry suzanne--What sort of medication are you on? get back to your G.P. and request a change as it is obviously causing you some imbalance.
32

,

01/07/2009 07:48:24
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33

sawney hasbeen,

Fairfields 01/07/2009 07:50:07
Anyone else smell the proverbial? Is this a set up for Gordie to ride in and declare the jobs safe? 'If you vote for me!'
34

,

01/07/2009 07:53:28
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35

Dumbill,

Nowhere man 01/07/2009 07:55:32
I love the smell of napalm in the morning.
36

gus1940,

Edinburgh 01/07/2009 08:01:16
Subsequent to the almost total demise of the UK shipbuilding industry caused by useless management, disastrous labour relations, internecine labour dusoutes between multiple unions and a failure to invest in outdated yards sanity seems to have appeared within what remains of the industry. However, with very few exceptions, all that remains is military shipbuilding.

One of the reasons given for the collapse of commercial ship-building was the emrgence of the Japanese and Korean shipbuilders with modern yards, modern labour practices and what we were told was cheap labour.

However, the impression I get is that nowadays these yards seem to build nothing other than tankers, bulk carriers and container ships.

High value shipbuilding in the form of cruise liners and RoRo ferries now seems to be concentorated in modern eurpean yards situated in countries not noted for cheap labour.

Examples that come to mind are cruise liners built in Finland, the Superfast Ferries which were built in Germany, The new Rosyth Ferry built in Italy and the new Queens built in France.

Can anybody tell me why a new Scottish yard equipped with the latest technology and situated at a deep water location such as Hunterston should not be capable of competing against these European yards?

37

mad world,

01/07/2009 08:04:02
Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said: "I have recently spoken with Alan Johnston, who had assured me the company was working to secure the long-term future of the yards.

"I will be contacting BVT to demand assurances over their commitment to the Clyde yards and the long-term future of Scotland's shipbuilding expertise."

Firstly, all the yards ar an asset to BVT and closing any of the yards isn't going to be BVTs first choice.

Secondly, 'to demand assurances' ? If your trying to represent the benefits of your area to a company then perhaps she should consider her language, co-operation through negotiation is probably the best way forward, taking a confrontational stance may look good to the electorate but often serves to get the backs up of those people that are going to make the decisions? An example of politicians playing to the masses rather than doing her job.
38

mad world,

01/07/2009 08:41:39
#41
Tam
'safer' or 'safe' ? Oh and the other gem this article doesnt mention is by the looks of it, any possible closure wouldnt be till after 2014???? Read the BBC thread on it... almost the same article except for that fact!
So, the jobs will be safe till 2014? Lucky b*****ds.. how many people in the UK today would be happy knowing their jobs were safe till 2014???
39

muppetspotter,

Edinburgh 01/07/2009 08:54:44
The projects are over spent and we are skint from bailing out the financial services sector....simple as that.

Only there is no point in pointing this out to supporters of the current Edinburgh govt or Westminster for that matter as neither the SNP nor the Labour govt have demonstrated how to balance the public books! It's a matter of record so don't bother responding.
40

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 01/07/2009 08:58:19
This article is hardly news. Everybody knows that, once the two aircraft carriers are built, there is very little work available for the shipyards. The Royal Navy now has a relatively small fleet and is not in a position to place orders continuously for more ships.

If the yards want a future they will have to be able to win contracts from other sources rather than relying on Royal Navy contracts.
41

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 01/07/2009 09:15:31
Remember that English yards are first choice for building and maintaining Royal Navy ships.
The Glasgow yards only got the two additional sections of the carriers when the Barrow yard was unable to take on its share of the work. In other words it been allocated work even when it had a full order book, at the same time as the Glasgow yards were getting pretty short of work.
42

The Strategist,

01/07/2009 09:15:50
#38 gus1940

I agree completely. There are plenty of opportunities for shipbuilding around the world..... One of the businesses that amazes me is an Italian outfit that builds huge luxury yachts.... Despite the recession it is still very busy .....

But - assuming a yard could be bought at a sensible price and Westminster don't try to prevent it then it will require a canny management team with a lot of vision and opportunism to make it work..... It would also need the support of the banks and that of course could be a real roadblock.......
43

Darien,

Panama 01/07/2009 09:22:17
The leak on naval shipyard closures is intended to strengthen Labour's position in the upcoming by election in Glasgow for that fine ex socialist ex Speaker Martin's ex seat.

Expect Gordon Brown to spin the line that the MoD is only considering these options because of the rise in support for independence amongst Scots. We can expect his trade union poodles to warm to the spin of 'union is better', when in fact Britain is bust, finished, kaput.

But its all broken promises with New Labour and their fast dwindling band of aparatchniks - nobody can ever again rely on what these spivs say. Thankfully an increasing number of thinking Scots can see through the unionist spin, though as always some others are struggling a bit.

By the way, an independent Scotland will itself need a significant merchant and naval fleet; those thinking of supporting our bust union should think about that.
44

Venachar,

01/07/2009 09:28:28
gus1940

The answer to your question is Margaret Thatcher. That woman was determined to kill off the traditional industries.
FYI Korea builds your container ships 4 at a time in the one dock @$60 million each. They build Ferries, Norfolk Line the line operating out of Rosyth had a couple built for them. They also bulid very large LNG ships at $200+ million each. Samsung / Daewoo were recently delivering a ship per week. Try one a year for a British yard. You would not believe the efficiency in places such as Ulsan and Okpo.

Perhaps they should build the carriers and save the government some money so they can pay for people on the unemployment benefit. Politicians are so clever aren't they!
45

,

01/07/2009 09:29:11
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46

Rasco,

01/07/2009 09:53:03
I see drinks company Diageo is to shed 900 jobs in Scotland and close a distillery another union divi.or will Lab. blame the SNP for trying to bring in minimum pricing on alcohol.
47

Tarchin,

Lothian 01/07/2009 09:55:28
This article is full of supposition and speculation with few facts.
48

Rob Royston,

Bishopbriggs 01/07/2009 10:01:30
People ask the question why, when Asian yards are turning work away, British yards have died away.

Around ten years ago I was on a project at Harland & Wolff's Belfast facility, which was probably capable of tackling any kind of marine work. I noticed that the yards staff all wore two-piece overalls which made them all look quite uncomfortable.

One day I spotted a welder who I had got to know crawling out from under a frame with his jacket up his back and his trousers hanging down, so I asked him why on earth they wore this useless apparral.

He told me that Harlands had had exchange visits with Kawasaki Shipyards where management teams visited each others yards from time to time and exchange knowledge.

On one of Kawasaki's visits to Belfast, as they walked around the yard, one of Harlands finest turned to their visitors and said "Notice that we have adopted your style of coveralls". The visitors could not help smiling as they replied, "These coveralls are no good, we have adopted the one piece kind you used to wear."

If they couldn't get their clothing right what chance is there that they could deal with the technical stuff.
49

Willie Mor,

01/07/2009 10:20:36
I suspect that after announcing the possible closure of the two Clyde yards, the government will probably thereafter announce a reprieve just before the general election.

And then of course the electorate will be so grateful for the benevolence they will vote for Labour in their droves.

Yes, and we should not forget that at the last election the claim was that voting SNP would imperil the allocation of MOD work to these yards.
50

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 01/07/2009 10:47:39
52 Willie Mor
The only way that the govt can "reprieve" the yards is to award them future Royal Navy contracts but the Royal Navy is not the Navy of old with hundreds of warships sailing round the world. It now just has a small fleet of 40 or so ships and is not in a position to place continuous orders for more ships as it has no need for them.

Also, modern frigates and destroyers etc. cost £billions so any replacement of existing ships will be, at best, sporadic. The yards cannot be maintained if there is no work for them. That is why they have to diversify and win other contracts if they are to survive.
51

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 01/07/2009 11:08:52
UK Shipbuilding for militaryy prurposes will be running at full capacity until 2014. With 18 future surface combatants to be built between 2015-2023 it will reamin busy. This memo has been leaked for political purposes.
52

Tartan Bond,

01/07/2009 11:33:22
Willie Mor # 52


Are you suggesting that Salmond and the SNP are and should be, in support of the permanent arms economy?
53

sicasapig,

turra 01/07/2009 11:49:18
if cars have got to be electric in ten years.wind turbines all over the place to reducuce carbon footprint,householders being fined for not lagging thier lofts,i take it then these ships are to be be fitted with oars and rowed like war galleys. [double standards i think.]
54

Tartan Bond,

01/07/2009 11:50:27
All Politicians are the same # 54

If the SNP get their way Scotland will be an independent country by 2014. It looks like BVT is anticipating that possibility and planning to centralise their warship production at Portsmouth.
Why would the UK government want to spend money in an independent country whose aims were inimical to that of the UK government.
That is one promise that Salmond has not yet made: to initiate a Scottish arms industry. But, for Nicola Sturgeon to demand that the UK government continue to build UK warships at Govan when the SNP want to break the Union is arrant hypocrisy.
55

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 01/07/2009 11:53:07
#57

I agree future UK warships would not and should not be built in Scotland.
56

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 01/07/2009 11:54:43
#58 I meant a Scotland outwith the UK.
57

Tartan Bond,

01/07/2009 12:00:00
All Politicians are the same # 58

The SNP want them built in Scotland, is that not arrant hypocrisy? And the SNP wants to dictate to Westminster what UK weapons they will have in Scotland, yet more hypocrisy.

Why doesn't Salmond promise that when Scotland becomes independent in 2014 that he will place a number of orders at Govan for the NEW Independent Scottish Navy to compensate for the loss of UK naval work?
That should raise at least a smirk at Govan Cross.
58

Willie Mor,

01/07/2009 12:00:30
#53

Couldn't agree more about the need for the Clyde yards to diversify and win other contracts for high-tech ships.

And yes, the RN is not in the market for the volume of ships that it retained in years gone by.

Moreover, to rely on a customer whose patronage is given wholly upon political considerations, is not a sound business model.

That said, if the RN needed new ships in the future, there is absolutely no reason why in an independent Scotland those ships would not be built in Scotland.

Come independence our closest trading partner will still be England, minus the colonial patronage paid come election time.

59

Vivas,

Edinburgh 01/07/2009 12:01:19
Let me get this straight.

The unionists constantly raise the spectre of defence related job losses in an independent Scotland.

In the here and now however, and as part of the union, we have the spectre of defence related job losses in a Scotland which allegedly recieves the benefits of this wonderful union.

Go figure ;-)
60

Tartan Bond,

01/07/2009 12:07:14
Vivas # 62

If Scotland is going to be independent by 2014 why would the UK government promise work beyond that time? That would be the time for the UK to renegotiate the rates down in tune with Salmond's low wage economic intentions. Kick start our indigenous arms industry too.
61

The Strategist,

01/07/2009 12:22:16
#64

I heard on the news this morning that the 18 ship order could well be cancelled or sharply cut back as a consequence of the report on affordability of the defence budget that came out this week or last. So I don't think it would be wise for any yard whether here in Scotland or in England to depend on that order to keep it going.

62

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 01/07/2009 12:31:46
#65

If you cancel that order then you have to get rid of the RN as the order is to replace the class of Ship that makes up the majority of the surface fleet. It has already been delayed and the T23 will npot be able to be extended again.
63

Rob me blind,

Peterhead 01/07/2009 12:48:00
No surprises here then, you cant bemoan the closing of the ship building when you bleat about having the Navy in Faslane. It is only a matter of time before they close RAF Kinloss, RN Rosythe and RAF Leuchars and wind down other MOD bases in Scotland after all independence will mean Scotland will have to resort to its own defence policy. You cant have independence and expect someone else to foot the bill for your country’s defence.
64

Darien,

Panama 01/07/2009 12:50:50
#64 Hagard: "Without the union, we would not even have the prospect of the carriers work until 2014"

Youre not very bright. If a government really wanted to create shipbuilding jobs it would not build naval ships, it would build merchant ships, for which the job impacts are more than tenfold per £ of subsidy applied - as most other shipbuilding nations know. The UK Government is not very bright either so you are in fine company there, supporting a bust economic union an a that. You are fighting a lost cause by the way - the UKofGB&NI will be history very soon as far as Scotland is concerned.
65

Darien,

Panama 01/07/2009 12:55:55
#67 Rob: "in Scotland after all independence will mean Scotland will have to resort to its own defence policy"

Yes, and that will involve significant expenditure on a more realistic and adequate defense capacity to serve Scotland. It does not mean closure of existing facilities, with the exception of Faslane which only a small minority diehard Scots unionists (BritNats) like you want to keep. Do also try to remember that defense is just one aspect of an economy.
66

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 01/07/2009 13:03:51
#69

I though the SNP were going to base the Scottish coastal defence force in Faslane?
67

Miss H,

01/07/2009 13:04:33
14 Scotland doesn't have tens of thousands of defence jobs to lose, Ewan.
68

Miss H,

01/07/2009 13:12:05
64 You know that is rubbish don't you?

A Scottish Government would not have committed expenditure to Trident renewal releasing resources for conventional defence capacity (which is what is actually needed).

That is an option for the UK Government as well, of course.

I think they will do it. ID cards have been ditched, Trident renewal will be next.

69

MadJockMacMad,

Edinburgh 01/07/2009 13:32:04
The Glasgow yards should be diversifying however, BVT don't appear to be too interested in doing that in order to provide the MOD with the potential capacity for the carriers. They are being effectively subsidised by the MOD to guarantee that capacity is available for the MOD when required. This prevents them competing and building the vessels that are being built elsewhere in Europe such as the new Queens or Ferries. Then when the Carriers order is placed we can all say thank heavens for the Union else we wouldn't have got that work and the yards would have been shut down. It is common knowledge that major defence contractors behave this way. Put in management at these yards which will allow them to compete for non military work and tell the MOD to get stuffed. The placing of the carrier orders has yet again been delayed anyway and they are political orders not orders based on best value for money.
70

mr broon,

Edinburgh 01/07/2009 13:45:36
The trades unions now appear to have obtained a copy of this memo and a storm is gathering.
71

Rob Royston,

Bishopbriggs 01/07/2009 13:49:39
Scotland will not need these ships so I don't see what all the fuss is about.

Instead of moping about what London is going to do we should be taking the initiative and making plans for our own future. Let London worry about us.

Once we are free we will need to build a fishing fleet and patrol vessels to take back all our sea area. We will need vessels to guard our oilfields, we will need to develop our wave energy projects.

We need to build a fleet of huge containerships to girdle the world from Scapa Flow once the Panama has been enlarged. We need a fleet of smaller container ships to deliver Europe's containers from Scapa at a price that has been proven to be the best possible, far less than the Channel Ports.

Independence will bring us as much shipbuilding as we can handle. We do not need to lose any sleep over a couple of aircraft carriers.
72

mad world,

01/07/2009 14:10:14
#75
Fishing fleet? so not gonna be a member of the EU then?
Take back all your sea area? from who?
Huge fleet of container ships? transporting what exactly?

73

Geomac 1,

Scotland 01/07/2009 14:17:05
Hmmmm
"The Scottish Government last night warned the revelations would cause "deep concern" among the workforce and communities on the Clyde. Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said: "I have recently spoken with Alan Johnston, who had assured me the company was working to secure the long-term future of the yards."
Hypocrisy Rules #75
As you say, a non aligned Scottish independent government has no need of ships built on the Clyde - so why is Nicky expressing "deep concern". Of course, they could always build a ship for Alex to use as he lords it around the world stage as the President of Scotland.
Not sure RR how you will be taking back the fishing industry - isn't it the SNP policy to remain in the EU (they are the masters of the seas nowadays)
74

Rob Royston,

Bishopbriggs 01/07/2009 14:37:56
#76 EU membership should be on our terms. Take back our seas from all those presently ripping us off. Crown Estates, UK and EU. Containerships normally transport containers, what did you expect, Giro Cheques?

#77 You are twisting my words, I said that an Independent Scotland has plenty of oportunities to build and operate ships whether on the Clyde or elsewhere.
The SNP will need to be quite clear that remaining in Europe has to be on re-negotiated terms or not at all. Many voters will, like me, be swayed by this. There is no point in moving from one slave owner to the next.
75

Porky,

01/07/2009 14:56:59
For FLICKS sake - it's othing to do with unionism vs nationalism - it's labour destroyong what's left of British industry - they don't need the worker's votes now that there are millions of grateful third world voters. Industry gave the working class a pride in their skills, but we can't have "white british" being proud of them selves, can we.
76

mad world,

01/07/2009 15:03:18
#76 EU membership should be on our terms. Take back our seas from all those presently ripping us off. Crown Estates, UK and EU. Containerships normally transport containers, what did you expect, Giro Cheques

Poor lad, mostly empty containers i fear, and your going to use these patrol craft to take back waters from the UK navy then? Interesting concept.. so if I have this correct after getting independence you feel that Scotland is going to start to throw it's weight around militarily against the remaining UK? EU even? Now that is one step beyond! Sorry to say mate but I think you need a reality check.. If your an example of SNP supporters ( though i feel even they will be embarrased by your comments ) Then roll on Independence!!
77

Geomac 1,

Scotland 01/07/2009 15:05:49
#78 RR - it was not my intention to twist your words. I was trying to demonstrate the hypocrisy of the SNP when it comes to defence.
Under EU only national navy ships are allowed to be built locally withour EU wide tendering. So all other ships will have to be put out to competitive tender. A relatively high cost/labour Scotland will not fare well against other EU countries.
I have not heard that the SNP's basis for remaining in the EU is only if they can re-negotiate terms? Is this a new policy? Can you imagine the other countries such as France and Spain giving up their fishing rights in UK waters?
#79 Porky - the Labour government destroyed the UK manufacturing base many years ago!!
78

mad world,

01/07/2009 15:15:12
#81
#79 Porky - the Labour government destroyed the UK manufacturing base many years ago!!

You cant just blame labour, British industry was destroyed by many different things..
Poor management, lack of investment, poor government, getting screwed because we obeyed the EEC rules and other didnt, and last but by no means least, the workers, look back over the last 50 years and see what the strikes were about, look how our unions behaved compared to say germanys IG METAL
79

Miss H,

01/07/2009 15:29:20
81 Every EU member can set its own terms in the sense of having a veto over national interests. Scotland obviously does not have that capacity as we are not a member state but part of another member state which has never placed Scottish interests very high on their agenda. UK ministers are on record as describing the Scottish fishing industry as expendable.

But to answer your question can we imagine the other countries such as France and Spain giving up their fishing rights in UK waters?

Yes.

That is where CFP reform is heading, didn't you know that?

Having over-fished the North Sea to depletion the EU has finally realised that the CFP is the biggest obstacle to a sustainable fisheries policy, not the vehicle.
80

Miss H,

01/07/2009 15:30:23
77 Maybe because she is the MSP for Govan?
81

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 01/07/2009 15:34:25
Hang on a sec!

Was this not meant to be one of the big up-sides to being part of the Union?

This might be difficult for Murphy and the Earl to spin away!!
82

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 01/07/2009 15:37:29
77 Geomac:

"so why is Nicky expressing "deep concern"."

Politics old chap. That's why.
83

Rob Royston,

01/07/2009 16:12:28
#80 mad world, Dont you know anything? They don't ship empty containers very much. It's cheaper to send new ones from China with the imports, the ports are full of them.
Google "Scapa container baird" for some knowledge.

After Independence the waters will be ours. Do you throw your weight around in your own house? No, well, same same the sea.
84

Geomac 1,

Scotland 01/07/2009 16:14:11
#83 - I thought that national vetos had gone in most areas to be replaced by majority voting? So small countries will have a major handicap in re-negotiating terms for EU membership.
85

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 01/07/2009 16:19:57
83 Miss H
You appear to have a very naive view of how EU negotiations are conducted. The idea that an independent Scotland with a population of 5 million will be in a position to dictate terms to the other 400 million is a wild fantasy.




86

Rob Royston,

01/07/2009 16:22:06
#81 Geomac 1, Post Independence, I would honour the fishing Quotas purchased from Scots by foreigners. I would hope the government will do so as well, but we have to re-take control.
Few of Londons deals will suit us.
87

mad world,

01/07/2009 16:28:44
#87
'patrol vessels to take back all our sea area.' you need to adjust your terminology then..

and unless something major has changed in the last 4 years, it wasnt uncommon for ships to be chartered to move just empty containers, from areas of low to high demand as empty containers dont carry the surcharges!
this was certainly true of the larger container terminals, how big is orkneys terminal again????
88

Rob Royston,

01/07/2009 18:16:13
#91 mad world You are right about my terminology, I was using my laptop on wireless and my post was getting lost so I re-typed it a few times getting it mixed up.
I did say that the don't ship empty containers "very much"
Orkney's terminal is not built yet as it goes against the South East policies of our masters. It will be one of the first things that Scots will do after independence if they want to make good use of their advantages. Building and running our own fleet would be the natural thing to do.
89

Jolly,

Edinburgh 01/07/2009 19:01:55
Heard this all before, as recently as just before the aircraft carrier orders were awarded!
90

Scottyt,

Saint Paul, 01/07/2009 19:36:24
The Rosyth subs can go down to the Thames too, making it the big nuclear target instead of Scotland.
I wonder if they'll close Portsmouth also????!! Probably not as that's the south of England.
91

Golden1,

Alba 01/07/2009 19:51:57
94 haggard
There are 7 naval ports,1 naval base.Faslane would not be shut post independence.It would merely stop harbouring weapons of mass destruction.
Not very bright are you?
92

Ewen Miler,

Wilts 01/07/2009 19:54:41
97# Plymouth is losing its ships to Portsmouth and its subs to Faslane - it is in the South of England With all the jobs lost; I suspect they'd love to have all the subs in the Tamar!

1) Brown talked today at PMQs about spending to protect jobs and industry through the recession.

2) The RN is very stretched thanks to Brown's cuts.

I say: reverse the decision not to build T45s - hulls 7 & 8; revert the carriers to the original timeframe,to reduce some of the overspend. Then skilled jobs are preserved; the carrier overspend is cut; we get better security.
93

Martyk,

01/07/2009 19:56:44
Someone as usual mentioned the Irish earlier in relation to the shipping industry. As their population and economy is about the scale of Scotlands I thought it would make a good comparison. Results of research. There is no Irish shipbuilding industry. There was until the 70"s in Cork but it closed. Until that time they could and did build their own naval vessels ( max 7,000 tons ) and ferries and general merchant. Now none. Belfast was on a bigger scale and in a united Ireland could perhaps have stayed a major shipbuilding centre. I dont know. The Irish Naval Service and Coastgaurd has 14 vessels. The Irish Merchant Marine 108 ships above 3,000 tons. I would guess Scotland as an independent nation would have similiar figures to this. So how could the Scots yards survive ? If we want any shipbuilding industry at all then we cant vote SNP. The example is next door.
94

Golden1,

Alba 01/07/2009 19:58:49
Anyway,agreed they've only engineered this in response to the rising popularity of the SNP.A defeat in the next Glasgow bi-election would be disastrous for the newly repackaged,but still as useless,labour party.
95

Martyk,

01/07/2009 20:10:01
Quite interesting from a Scots perspective. The largest Irish shipping company (Arklow ) has about 40 vessels. With several more on order. All with Dutch and German yards. The Irish Gov NEVER directed their shipping companies to place orders with the Cork yard when it was open or they would have simply re-flagged. I dont know enough about the shipping industry to give any definative summation but I strongly feel there is a lesson here somewhere. And I think it is simply that an independent Scotland would have no yards and a small foreign built Merchant Marine.
96

Golden1,

Alba 01/07/2009 20:18:09
102
You are at best being disingenuous.Scaremongering is the tactic that lost your lot the last election.Wake up... the rest of the population are.
97

Rob Royston,

Bishopbriggs 01/07/2009 20:18:30
#100 Martyk Did someone not mention any of the Scandinavian countries as well, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, even the Faroes. All involved in shipbuilding.

Norway would be the nearest match to Scotland in size and resources. They build lots of ships and they have fleets of them, all manned by Norwegian officers, trading all over the world. That's the next-door example we need to be looking to.

It seems that our only hope of having a shipbuilding industry and a marine industry is to vote for the SNP and control our own future like Norway does.
98

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 01/07/2009 20:36:34
Nothing ever changes. "They" say we'll lose the jobs if we leave the union. Then we lose them because of the union.

And you wonder why a certain by election is being postponed.
99

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 01/07/2009 20:43:43
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiDOMuhpqUo

Never heard it before?
100

Ewen Miler,

Wilts 01/07/2009 20:44:28
#104o

Google doesn't seem to support your argument regarding Norway:-

http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/eiro/2000/01/feature/no0001175f.htm

http://www.yourshipbuildingnews.com/shipping+confidence+up+but+concern+builds+over+newbuilding+glut_35133.html

From: http://dfa.gov.ph/?p=3624 and http://dfa.gov.ph/?p=3624 looks like they're outsourcing jobs from Norway?

101

Martyk,

01/07/2009 20:51:52
Norway is a flag of convenience like the Bahamas and similiar. Is that what you want ?
102

Martyk,

01/07/2009 20:55:56
103; disingenous ? How ? Everything I have said is easily verifiable. The only example I could find of a small European nation with an unsubsidised , profitable shipbuilding industry was Holland. And they have treble Scotlands population. It cant be done.
103

Darien,

Panama 01/07/2009 21:06:54
#108 Martyk: "Norway is a flag of convenience like the Bahamas and similiar. Is that what you want ?"

Er, yes please. 'Scottish Ship Registry'. Has a kind of ring to it, don't you think. Gee, is this what real nations can do? Put their national flags on ships and build competitive advantage from it? Well I never. What will average-sized innovative independent nations think of next? (And how pitiful and irrelevent is the present Scottish 'region' as appendage to a bust discredited and oddly named 'nation' called the UKofGB&NI).
104

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 01/07/2009 21:08:31
109, Marty. Your post does not add up. What does population have to do with the efficiency and cost effectiveness of ship building?

Facilities from design, management, workforce, plant facilities and water depth would be all that is required to competitively tender for shipbuilding.
105

Martyk,

01/07/2009 21:23:59
OK. Name me a nation anywhere of 5 million people with a profitable ship. building industry.
106

Golden1,

Alba 01/07/2009 21:24:03
109
Did your parents never tell you that there is no such word as can't?
There is a difference between can't and hasn't.
107

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 01/07/2009 22:02:17
#112 Finland.
108

George Coutts,

far far away from the HOLY LOCH 01/07/2009 23:13:20
Heavens people will lose jobs, what cLap trap, there is only a matter of months before the independence, Scotland only Im afraid, The 6 Irish counties Michael Collins took the BULLIT for and Poor little wales will follow swiftly and Brittania can be BURRIED in tons of cow manure
The ammount of jobs created to keep the wifies armed forces she has will be at the very least MASSIVE.
Thanks to all the MSP´s who voted with their feet bto snub Lizie and the side kick, similar to the roasting Thatcher got from the Scottish Ministers, absoulutly Marvelous. Iceland got a loan from the Ruskies now they control the northern waters and sky, wouldnt it be fantastic to see one of their Aircraft carriers swanning up the Clyde, and oh yes they could use HMSS jets for target practice, but only when they chase them down the Thames to the Parcel of Rogues in the depressing house with the BIG CLOCK. DONT FORGET THIS.I YES I am Scottish, Europian and bow to no man woman or beast.In a free and DEMOCRATIC for the first time in 303 years, ONE FOR ALL AND ALL FOR ONE.G.C.
109

George Coutts,

01/07/2009 23:22:15
It shold have read to keeo OUT thr wifies armed forces........and waqs her face straight in a stooka or what, in the Hollyrood Debating chamber. Check out STV/ Video youll be in stitches, Chech out the First Ministers Performance, Oskar Emmi or WHAT. Kching.
110

George Coutts,

01/07/2009 23:38:42
I'M driving up to Aberdeen from Manchester on friday night, and I will have a back window sticher that will read.... FREE SCOTLAND.... give me a honk if you see me HONDA CIVIC thats if I dont end up lik DODIE or DI.
And on monday back down, Why you say Manchester not Glasgow, well Gordon did the Terrorist act on Iceland and put an end to Iceland Aire flights to Scotland. Hmm I dont suppose anyone lost their job at Glasgow Airport because of his BIG MOUTH, I wish he could find a personality but some of us were destined to scare even little Kids and oh big Kids to TEARS, But luckily to public money, he is the MD of RBOS, 10 out of ten for that but he forgot he,ll have to fly out by Helicopter South because look what happened to his Predesessors HOUSE and CAR.
111

Rob Royston,

02/07/2009 04:34:14
#107 Ewan Your first link is 9 years out of date and the other two are irrelevant.

Try this link it will open your eyes a wee bit

http://www.rederi.no/default.asp?V_ITEM_ID=914

 

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