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Gerald Warner: Obama's peace tour has left US a more dangerous place

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Published Date: 26 April 2009
THERE is a certain type of political career that has auto-destruction built into its DNA: look no further than the predicament of the pathetic creature pointlessly lingering on in 10 Downing Street, si monumentum requiris. To this category belongs Barack Obama. This, of course, is heresy to the consensus that is still rapturously inhaling the heady fumes of self-delusion - as it did with Tony Blair.
What most Obama sceptics would have to concede is some surprise at the speed with which he has launched into self-destruct mode. The President Pantywaist tour on which he embarked, embracing America's enemies, was fairly predictable, even if some of
the detail was more grotesque than expected. There was, however, one area where most commentators believed Obama would tread warily: it seemed implausible that he would play politics with America's national security within his first 100 days in office.

Then came his disastrous decision to publish formerly classified legal opinions authorising the use of such interrogation techniques as "waterboarding" on terror suspects. Although the data initially released did not hugely add to the information already in the public domain, it must have given al-Qaeda an invaluable insight into the technical, legal and moral parameters of the interrogation that captured operatives would face. Yet it was already out of date, as these practices have been so sternly outlawed it is unlikely even maverick interrogators would use them again.

The first damage Obama did was to formalise interrogation of terror suspects as a party political issue. While it was never likely that the liberal New York Times would ever champion the rack and thumbscrews, Obama's attempt to embarrass the Republicans converted what should have been a moral dilemma into a partisan litmus test. Is torture ever justified?

The knee-jerk reaction is: no. Then, think about it in more detail. The most liberal-minded champions of human rights had a cathartic moment when they watched people jumping from the twin towers on September 11. What if one had in custody a known al-Qaeda activist, believed to have planted a dirty bomb or some other instrument of atrocity in a population centre: would one utterly reject torture as a means of extracting life-saving information?

Or would one prefer to cling to the dictates of a liberal conscience and later watch children's dismembered limbs being excavated from the ruins? That is an extreme hypothesis but, in the current reality, not an implausible one. It is the kind of issue that deserves to be tackled with unflinching honesty, not polarised as an item on a partisan checklist. The failure of Obama to grasp that, to come off the campaign trail at last and address national security as Commander-in-Chief of the US Armed Forces, not as head honcho of the Chicago Democrat caucus, demonstrates his inadequacy for the office he holds.

There followed his damage-limiting visit to CIA headquarters and his pledge that nobody would be prosecuted, contradicted immediately by liberal pressure groups. Then Obama revised his view and thought that, after all, perhaps some people might be prosecuted. Now the extremist Democrats have the ambition to put Condoleezza Rice in the dock.

Next, Martin Scheinin, UN special investigator for human rights, suggested senior Bush era officials, including Dick Cheney, might be arrested if they ventured onto European soil. In retaliation, Cheney wants to extend the paper trail, by publishing documents to show how efficient the old methods were.

Unnoticed in all this has been Hillary Clinton's nimble footwork. Her apparently strident denunciations of the inadequate response of the Pakistan government to terrorism, although diplomatically self-defeating, are aimed at distancing her from President Pantywaist and earning her the role of Nasty Cop. Hillary was always going to slide the steel between Barack's shoulders at some point – treachery is in the Clinton genes – but Obama's betrayal of US interests has forced her hand. Expect more such assertions of free-range foreign policy from her. Clinton in 2012…

Obama has no hope of controlling the process he has precipitated. In this climate, what CIA officer could possibly feel motivated to do anything more controversial than make paperclip chains in his office? Dubya left the White House with just one plus point: on his watch, there was no further atrocity on US soil after 9/11. Now that Obama has emasculated the security forces, an outrage representing even 1% of the September 11 toll would consign The One to the ferocious vengeance of the American people.





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1

longhorn,

texas 26/04/2009 08:25:32
Cynicus is a fool. Obama is a fool 'elected' by the "life is a movie" media. Thousands of American lives have been saved by a humane version of waterboarding that thousands of American special forces endure every year. We certainly do not "torture" our own. Barry Soetoro is a sock-puppet of somebody (George Soros). When America is next struck by terrorists, BHO will be responsible. Barry is destroying the intelligence network that has protected the Western world. Such tragedy is inevitable now. It's the Kenyan/Thai/Brit's (BHO's) fault. Innocents will pay the price.
2

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 26/04/2009 08:55:24
Some old neocon's never die, they just rust away!
3

SeumasMcCoo,

East Lothian 26/04/2009 10:16:11
Most people with any understanding of a decent society can see from his writings that Gerald Warner is an obscenity. However in this piece arguing for torture he surpasses himself. His criticism of Obama for releasing the information, and then the statement that the information is out of date demonstrates his muddled thinking on this topic.
The tired old argument of the ticking bomb, and do you torture those with a potential information of where it is, demonstrates a profound lack of knowledge, not only about how intelligence works, but also the lack of short term utility in torture.
What Warner forgets is that torture is simply illegal in international law, and it is the refusal to use torture that differentiates the democracies from the terrorists.
When torture was tried in Northern Ireland it failed, and was roundly condemned in the United States.
It is important that not only does Obama take action against those who permitted torture, but that HMG also holds a judicial review on the involvement of British operatives in torture, so that those at all levels from the politicians who approved down can be tried for these crimes and receive lengthy terms of imprisonment.
4

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 26/04/2009 10:49:09
MY understanding - admittedly gleaned from a world press which is in something approaching freefall - is that it was America's decision to abandon Afghanistan, in the intelligence sense, which so aided the psychotic Islamists in their initially successful efforts to convert the country (?) into a base from which to wage war on the west (HQ now moved to Pakistan): not any decision to abandon torture.
Obama may be an idiot, as claimed, but he is clearly attempting to establish for America the "brand proposition" of a country which has nothing in common with the sleazy jackboot-dictatorships it has so assiduously propped up around the world, Saddam's Iraq included. Gitmo (for example) probably creates many more problems than it actually solves - if it has solved any - and probably has more to do with giving the American version of our "Sun readers" the erroneous impression that "something is being done". It is an ineluctable fact of counter-intelligence operations that we never find out what really works until a generation after the fact.
Britain didn't win the intelligence war for the allies in WW2 by torture (although there was probably some element of that), but by the application of science and ingenuity. The moral question is one thing: "what works" is quite another.
5

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 26/04/2009 11:10:40
Here(below) are a few paragraphs from Trevor Royle's piece, The Enemy At The Gate, in today's SH: they illustrate, very neatly, the true dilemma facing America and her allies in Afghanistan, a war "we" are comprehensively losing, and which no amount of medieval torture will help us win: rather than sling fatuous insults at Obama wouldn't it be more useful to have a discussion about how, in military terms, Pakistan can be saved from what I regard as the forces of evil?
(Trevor Royle):
"During the last months of the Bush regime Islamabad found itself being sidelined by senior US commanders in Afghanistan and in Washington. Both the Pentagon and the CIA started scaling back intelligence-sharing with Pakistan's notoriously flaky Inter-Services Intelligence agency (ISI) and giving preference to the Indian security services. That was both a sign of the distrust in which the ISI is held by the CIA and an indication of the increasingly close links between Washington and New Delhi.

Any move of that kind would send alarm bells ringing in the high command of Pakistan's armed forces, because any rapprochement between India and the US will have ramifications in the disputed region of Kashmir. Although a ceasefire has held since 2003 there are regular breaches by Muslim fighters, many of whom belong to Lashkar i-Taiba whose doctrine embraces worldwide jihad. All too often these incursions are supported by the Pakistani forces on the border, or at best are simply ignored by them.

As Lashkar has ties with the Taliban - it was thought to be responsible for last year's bombing of the Taj Hotel in Mumbai - this only adds to the existing tensions between India and Pakistan. A recent poll in Pakistan shows that 80% of the army's senior commanders believe that India remains the primary threat and that operations against the Taliban in the north-west achieve little in return for causing unacceptable levels of casualties. No reliable figures have ever been made available but the In
6

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 26/04/2009 11:12:18
No reliable figures have ever been made available but the International Red Cross estimates that 250,000 people have been made homeless along the frontier with Afghanistan as a result of military operations.

Much of this violence is blamed on US interventions and increases the perception that Pakistan is getting a poor deal in return for giving in to US demands. However, US diplomats are also aware that Obama's Af-Pak policy could come unstuck if it only succeeds in destabilising Pakistan, the very country which should be a key ally in the war against terrorism. On Friday the US State Department insisted that this was a problem which affected not only regional but global stability.

7

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

26/04/2009 12:23:46
'What if one had in custody a known al-Qaeda activist, believed to have planted a dirty bomb or some other instrument of atrocity in a population centre: would one utterly reject torture as a means of extracting life-saving information?
'

The problem with torture is that there is no way of distinguishing good information from bad information. The victim only wants the torture to stop and if he is innocent, then telling the truth will not do that. Telling a lie will.
If there's a ticking time bomb, the suspect could just as easily give information that led to police not finding the bomb as finding it.
You could argue that all information obtained under torture can be verified-but what if you're verifiying it against other information obtained under torture? You run the risk of spinning a web of fantasy and lies and using that as the basis of your intelligence strategy.
It could also be argued that you can't necessarily depend on information provided without torture.
true-but innocent people are not going to confess to things they didn't do if you don't torture them.
Another point-the actual act of torture:water boarding, sleep deprivation etc is likely to blunten the victims mental faculties-make him hallucinate etc- which means that the quality of any information you do get will again be degraded.

And when you do torture someone, you lose all chance of being able to establish any relationship of trust with that person. If instead you treat captives with dignity, interrogate them in the normal way and win them over to your side, you will likely, I would have thought, obtain much higher quality information in the end.
8

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 26/04/2009 13:13:40
I think you can treat your average Islamo-fascist with as much dignity as you like and you'll still have sitting defiantly in front of you a maniac who would like to kill you and all your friends, and indeed anybody who does not wear a beard or hate women.
The big problem with torture, on the other hand, aside from moral questions, is that unless you actually have in your grasp a terrorist who, in the manner of TV thrillers, and Gerry's fevered imagination, knows where a bomb is and when it will go off (etc, the actual knowledge possessed by any one person is inevitably, and calculatedly, limited: they cannot tell you what they do not know. The much more difficult task of acquiring information through, eg, infiltration, is much more effective - and dangerous.
It requires skills and a level of commitment which the Americans of the Bush regime, with their failed strategy of war on the cheap, could not manage.
It's perhaps also necessary to draw a distinction between torture aimed at eliciting actual information, as exemplified by the Nazis, and torture used solely to elicit an affirmation of a script already written for the condemned, as in the Inquisition - for whom the desired end result was gratification of a sadistic impulse based on perverted quasi-religious idealogy rather than anything strictly practical. In the case of the equally fiendish Japs of WW2 it was to inculcate a sense of (imaginary) racial superiority over the victim's peer group while again satisfying a perverted need to instill fear through acts of gross sadism.
We see the same sort of behaviour in Islamo-fascists, and of course we wish to see such people driven from the face of the earth by the most convenient route possible. But we cannot risk appearing to resemble them - as with the pointless brutality of "Gitmo" and sundry other neocon obscenities.
9

Observer,,

Glasgow 26/04/2009 15:14:27
Even if a person can find a moral ground for torture (which in my view makes them immoral) the fact is that torture does not work. It doesn't get you results, the intelligence you gain from it is meaningless, as the person being tortured will say what he thinks his torturers want to hear.

Islamic militants are made. It is essentially a reactionary movement. So what are they reacting to ? If what they are reacting to is right then we should defend it. But what they are reacting to is NOT right. Acknoledging that does not make you an appeaser. And it is far more sensible than torturing people which just guarantees that more extremists are made.

9/11 was a result of political action by the West which was unfounded and unfair. It does not excuse what happened but it is an explanation. For as long as we ignore what Al Quaeda are saying the terror will continue, on both sides.
10

,

26/04/2009 15:24:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
11

Teemackell the Scribe,

26/04/2009 15:26:24
#2, longhorn,texas writes, "Cynicus is a fool. Obama is a fool......Thousands of American lives have been saved by a humane version of waterboarding that thousands of American special forces endure every year. We certainly do not "torture" our own."

Both these men may be fools -although I don't think either is. Indisputably, neither is a terrorist. But waterboard them and they will tell you anything you want to hear. Neither, I suspect, has special forces training tailored to withstand torture.

There is not a shred of evidence to support the claim that any lives have been saved by techniques worthy of terrorists themselves. It is profoundly dispiriting to read a defence from the USA of these abominations provided they are not used on "our own." How profoundly un-American. Longhorn betrays his country's finest traditions and should hang his head in shame.
12

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 26/04/2009 16:49:43
11."You obviously know nothing about the Inquisition. You've bought the myth hook, line and sinker."

Hook, line and sinker: is that some sort of under-advertised waterboarding hors d'ouevre carried out by the Holy and suddenly apparently touchy-feely Inquisition? Perhaps Cardinal Fang, above, will enlighten us as to "the truth of the Inquisition" ... no red hot pincers, mind; keep it clean ...
13

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 26/04/2009 17:05:01
14. "Longhorn betrays his country's finest traditions and should hang his head in shame."

They may be his "country's" finest traditions, Mr Teemackell, but not necessarily those of his State ...the epithet "longhorn" leads us to suspect the gentleman is perhaps more in tune with the robust political philosophy of such famous historical Texican luminaries as General John Bell Hood; or the gallant Tennessean, Davy Crockett. Not for them your damn liberal bleeding heart fripperies. His is the America of the rough-ridin' Texas Rangers - huntin' Villa's bandoleros along the Rio Grande - not the genteel lawyer's world of Washington, with all its fancy Sidney Poitier and Tom Cruise types strutting about talking liberal b-sh*t.
Where he comes from high school kids probably do waterboarding for kicks during "frat nights" - you've got to understand the culture.
14

brassneck,

brigadoon 26/04/2009 17:54:01
'...you've got to understand the culture.' #17

Surely '...kultur?'
15

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 26/04/2009 21:12:42
20. I know there's an argument to the effect that you were better off being "done" by Torquemada and his chums than the civvy authorities, it being the Middle Ages, also that ecclesiastical thought police - who policed only Christians, not infidels - weren't unduly harsh. But Torquemada, who used torture sparingly (we're told) was enthusiastic about it; and was responsble for (I think; I may stand corrected) 2,000-plus ecclesiastical deaths by burning. He, of course, is just one well known inquisitor.
Rather than defend the indefensible, and accuse me of peddling myths, you could have made the point that many others during the same period were equally culpable of what we would now regard as sadistic brutality on a Homeric scale ... but how anyone reconciles such barbarity with Christianity is the biggest mystery of all. We have the luxury of observing religious depravity with cool detachment now, when it is safely in the past - but we have to learn its lessons to avoid the possibility of such state terror in the future.
16

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 26/04/2009 21:15:12
As a matter of fact I think even Alistair Campbell would have a job explaining away the Inquisition as "misunderstood" - he might give it a stab on a good day, no pun intended ...
17

Teemackell the Scribe,

26/04/2009 21:33:48
#17, Retiarius:

'Where he comes from high school kids probably do waterboarding for kicks during "frat nights" - you've got to understand the culture.'-

Oh dear.

Since you are into stereotypes, it surprises me that you fail to argue that 'Where he comes from' they go around massacring people with chainsaws.

The truth is that Americans, overwhelmingly, are upright, decent people who abhor torture and are shamed by the measures sanctioned by the previous administration. They are to be found in both blue and red states -including deep in the heart of Texas.

18

Bolivarian Scot,

BorisTown 26/04/2009 22:23:30
# 10 Damo Lennon said: "This man [Obama] has never done anything in his life to suggest that he is qualified for the presidency, and may even be ineligible."

Damo Lennon obviously has exacting standards. Obama was born into a went to Colombia University and Harvard Law School, to which he gained entry solely on his own merits, as opposed to influential family connections and expensive private education enjoyed by certain other recent US presidents....

He then became, for 12 years, a professor (like another former US president of yesteryear, Woodrow Wilson) and not just a "community organiser" (a term that conservatives use in a wholly pejorative way, as if there were something inherently wrong about becoming involved in one's community).

But I'm guessing that Damo Lennon probably has a much more benevolent view about Dubya Bush's qualifications, experience and fitness to be POTUS.

The difference is that we know for sure what sort of a Presidential disaster Bush was, whereas Obama is new and untested.

By the way, re "natural born citizen" definition - the definition is far from clear:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_born_citizen_of_the_United_States

My advice to Damo Lennon and others would therefore be: the black guy from Hawaii won - get over it!
19

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 26/04/2009 23:55:46
25. You appear eager to spread a contra-myth; what's this "after 1482" whimsy? Do we just air brush the bits that aren't convenient to the .... myth? I think we'll have to agree to differ over whether or not religiously-sanctioned mass murder was or was not a good thing, along with its concomitant torture. And in what sense did the Catholic church have "very little to do" with absolutely anybody in medieval Spain - don't be silly.
20

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 27/04/2009 10:16:09
30/31. Disappointing to see King Ferdinand writing his letters in American ("rumors"), even before Columbus etc, but I do take your point - the Inquisition was motivated by lust for wealth as much as by religious fanatacism and the desire (need, really) to enslave and control ... but Cynicus' comments re sophistry, or is it casuistry, are entirely apposite: again, I'd have to ask how this organisation addicted to the strapado, burning people alive, etc, can be represented as "secular" in any modern sense. There is nothing hyperbolic, or secular, about being burned to a crisp by some wlld-eyed religious loon, and the thrust of my argument - though it seems like a long time ago now - is that in today's context we cannot risk even a scintilla of perceived connection to this dark chapter in human history. As for 'Enery VIII: I believe he kept the Defender of the Faith title (which I recall was a joob-joob bestowed by the pope for keeping the French in check): I've no doubt this revolting character was every bit as assiduous at mass murder and torture as the papist fanatics, as Bloody Mary and Cromwell would later be in their own times: but of course the Spanish institution lasted a great deal longer, hence its perfectly justified notoriety. The moral, as ever, is "don't put religious fanatics in charge of anything" - as true now, sadly, as ever before. Lust for money, murder, torture ... you can't help wondering what Jesus, the theoretical sponsor of all this evil, might have thought of it all. When you look at some fat little bespectacled mullah on TV raving words of hate and repression you are being beamed straight back to the dark age of medieval Spain - a country which sadly exported its greed and savagery to the New World, with appalling consequences whose effects still live with us today. The great tragedy is that Francis Drake wasn't around in 1520, or thereabouts, to consign the likes of Cortez, Pizarro and his thugs to Davy Jones' Locker.
21

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 27/04/2009 10:28:17
Meanwhile, for anyone interested in statistics, the terror of the Inquisition is estimated to have been responsible for the murder of 31,912 "heretics" by burning - while 7,659 were burned in effigy (which would be my personal preference, given a choice) and 291,450 were "let off with a caution". The Spanish Inquisition was only finally wiped out by Joseph Bonaparte in 1808: sadly he was not able to expunge religious fanatacism which such ease.

22

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 27/04/2009 12:02:57
It's a Jewish source - but I don't want to get into the whole thing about Catholic persecution of the Jews, or we'll be here for months. Slabbering Jamie was certainly responsible for torturing (often personally) and burning large numbers of alleged "witches", but it's a silly question - isn't it? It's a bit like me saying "Who killed the most Mesoamerican people by a combination of mass murder and the importation to the New World of syphilis, etc?". Also, you're again determined to fast-forward to the point in history where most of the murders appear to have been in the past, and can therefore be safely airbrushed from the somewhat selective record. In your dreams! You can keep your own myths rolling, but apart from Gerald Warner and the other members of Opus McDei I doubt if you'll find many takers. I candidly confess, however, that I never expected to encounter an actual live defender of the Inquisition - even on Warner's web board! That's the whole point, though, isn't it? Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! As for the 291,450 "not punished" - not punished for what, exactly? Again (he said wearily), the point I was labouring to make is that we can have no truck with the remotest scintilla of any past regime which murdered and tortured purely to aggrandise wealth and power to itself at the expense of common humanity, and in contravention of even the most elastic interpetation of Christianity. Your repeated attempts to rebrand a murderous anti-Christian movement as a sort of medieval social work department do not wash, even if "only" 4,000 people were burned alive by your allegedly Christian compatriots. Yours is an interesting hobby, to be sure, and I'm all for historical elucidation - but the idea that the crazies "only" murdered 2,000 people in 15 years does not win for its supporters a watch. I've read the Catholic militant apologia for Spanish atrocities, and it does not convince. Rather (again) it is a sombre warning about the consequences
23

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 27/04/2009 12:05:38
of allowing religious fanatics to have any truck with any kind - any kind - of law, or governance. That, as witness the Islamo-fascists, is as true now as ever.
24

Bolivarian Scot,

BorisTown 27/04/2009 12:05:57
# 26 Damo Lennon -

OK, I concede that Obama wasn't a full-time professor for 12 years - that was my error - but he WAS employed as a lecturer at University of Chicago Law School for 12 years, which isn't a bad stretch at such a prestigious establishment. And how, exactly, does being an academic, lawyer, community organiser and skilled communicator disqualify someone from being a leading politician, including POTUS?

You said: "Why do you think I'm a fan of Bush, who was a buffoon? Oh I know, I don't rate Obama, so I MUST be a crazy neo-con, because everybody else just loves Obama, don't they?"

No, sir, I was merely contrasting the double-standards that you appear to apply vis-a-vis Obama and Dubya's respective fitness to be POTUS. Your dissing Bush doesn't add much - he was a son of privilege whose short tenure as shoe-in Governor of a diehard Republican state was hardly a great preparation for the complex and turbulent world of 9/11 etc. Maybe you are a conservative who dislikes Bush because he let the budget deficit balloon?

I, too, have my reservations about Obama but Republican talk of him being a "Marxist" etc is wide of the mark. As another SoS contributor said a few weeks back, "the business of America IS business"; and that isn't going to change. Has Obama the "Marxist" and "appeaser" lifted the US blockage on Cuba (opposed 185-3 by the UN in Oct-08)? Did he nix the bailout to Big Finance? No - it's "business as usual".

You said: "Glad to see you rely on Wikipedia for information. I might go on there now and change their definition of a natural-born American, just for a laugh."

Changing Wikipedia might be the only way you'll win this particular argument, Damo. Don't diss Wikipedia - it's not always inaccurate; in this case, its sources are clearly indicated and they blow out of the water your argument that the definition of "natural-born American" is as clear-cut as you suggest in # 10. By the way, there IS a link to his Hawaiian bi
25

Bolivarian Scot,

27/04/2009 12:08:44
# 37 ......[continued]

Changing Wikipedia might be the only way you'll win this particular argument, Damo. Don't diss Wikipedia - it's not always inaccurate; in this case, its sources are clearly indicated and they blow out of the water your argument that the definition of "natural-born American" is as clear-cut as you suggest in # 10. By the way, there IS a link to his Hawaiian birth certificate. Check it out.

You said: "Give me one quote - just ONE - from any of my posts which is racist."

There are none; but the double-standards you apply vis-a-vis Bush and Obama, and in particular your failure to explain why Bush II (spoiled rich WASP, drunk, Christian zealot, failed businessman) was a better candidate for POTUS than Obama (inexperienced Congressman, self-made man, constitutional lawyer), plus your focus on "natural-born Americans", naturally raise suspicions that race may be a factor in your thinking.
26

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 27/04/2009 13:07:47
Lies, damned lies, statistics - I'm glad I wasn't one of the people who was "only" tortured for 15 minutes by Damo's fiendish Dons. At least, amid this history-rewriting nonsense,we have wrung the concession that "none of that is acceptable by today's standards" - which is the point, again, I was labouring to make. We cannot afford to be linked in any way, even by the remotest perception of association, with the evils perpetrated by the fanatics of medieval Spain (and, if you insist, Scotland.) Religion must have no part to play in law, or governance. Religion can be tolerated, insofar as it does not cause harm, but like any other belief system must operate under maximum constraint imposed by a wholly secular and democratic system of law.
It then goes without saying that this system of law cannot, even remotely, echo the processes which produced the disgusting crimes of Spain's disgusting past.
27

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 27/04/2009 13:47:29
I don't want to get into the Jewish discussion because I feel Jewish scholars have a much better grip on the facts than I (I'm not Jewish); but again we see your selective use of specious ecclesiastical (etc) data in a pathetic attempt to justify the patently unjustifiable. The Mexica, a brutal lot, were appalled by the Spaniards' habit of burning people who didn't agree with them (or who were merely inconvenient, ie "heretical"), and no wonder; if there was any virtue to the Scottish annals of horror it is perhaps that at least their mania was not exported to a New World, with ruinous consequences.
I am not sure what to make of your charge of "hysteria" - I suspect this may be Inquisition-speak for "disagrees with me, the Supreme Power", or why you should impute to me the adjective "slabbering", other than that you liked it when you came across my reference to Slabbering Jamie - by whom I did indeed mean King James VI and I, the ugly little perverted towrag that he was. I have no intention whatsoever of wading through your lengthy bibliography of revisionist nut jobs, nor of explaining in detail why a government and system of law which is not run by ecclesiasts (or their fanatical adherents) is not necessarily "Nazi", because like every true zealot you have long since made up your mind, to your entire satisfaction.
Arguing from ignorance is certainly never a good idea; arguing from selective interpretation of selected facts that fit an optimistic view of a thoroughly evil (and anti-Christian) movement is downright daft.
One thing you may like to consider, amid your own garrulous and somewhat obsessive slabbering: when the Unholy Armada of 1588 was scattered to the four winds, and Spanish power blunted and rendered harmless at last, Philip II, a deeply pious man, opined that the disaster (ie, for the Dons) was God's judgement on a wicked people. I wholeheartedly concur, and good day to you.
28

Radge,

Aberdeen 27/04/2009 13:48:38
#3 Lackey, if you must plague us with your witterings, try to get the grammar correct:

"Some old neocon's never die, they just rust away!"

It's neocons (plural) - apostrophe not required. Apart from that well done on living up to your usual standard.
29

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 27/04/2009 13:49:41
Next week from Damon: "Why the Black Death was Nice"
30

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 27/04/2009 16:40:32
"Survived the Armada by decades" ... well, yes, but I think even the selectively interpreting Damien, with all his suave, fork-bearded dissembling and sophistry, would concede that wicked Spain and its hellish legions foundered on the wooden walls of Olde England (and her gallant Dutch allies), never again to threaten the world with the prospect of slavery to the Don?
The great tragedy is that but for the gold looted from the Americas in the course of Spain's genocidal campaigns of conquest the Dons would have been lowered into the dustbin of history so very much quicker, but at any rate attempted comebacks, such as the Spanish contribution to the cause of Irish nationalism (Kinsale, 1600) confirmed the obvious trend: a century or so later Admiral Rooke not so much singed as shaved the haughty hidalgo's beard with his epic capture of Gibraltar ... which I think we'll keep, thanks very much. What else? Trafalgar, and the final humiliation of a nation which had once been powerful, if never noble ... and then the long descent into exclusion, darkness and the hideous dictatorship of Franco.
Meanwhile there's a petulance creeping in to Damien's increasingly strident posts that was missing before. He uses UPPER CASE shouting to rebuke one dissident, above, and commits to virtual print phrases such as "Retearius propogates" (sic), in his frenzied efforts to shore up his collapsing position. Evidence indeed!
We'll skip the stats on strangulation before burning, as opposed to just plain burning (with a bit of torture) and accept that Damien and his "modern historians" are all the "evidence" we need about what happens when fanatics and zealots are given a soupcon of power. Spain lost, the Inquisition lost (thanks, Joseph Bonaparte), Damian has lost; but on he trundles, remorselessly, excusing the inexcusable, arguing the unarguable ... a dark side Don Quixote clad in the rusty armour of distorted facts and fantasy history.
Meanwhile we appear to have somewhat lost
31

Retiarius,

Harbour of Gades - in flames 27/04/2009 16:44:12
the point of the argument, amid this jolly garrulity. Torture. Good or bad thing? Gerald, Torquemada and Damien say yes; me, Obama and others on this board (apart from the now sadly non-participating Longhorn) say no. So that's that settled, then ...
32

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 27/04/2009 23:13:35
I don't know, Damo, for someone who insists that "torture can never be justified" you seem to devote an awful lot of time number crunching the maths of how many people were murdered by whom and why - rounding off with a triumphant catalogue of why the Spanish Inquisition "used torture sparingly" and "followed due legal process", amid a flock of other perfectly ridiculous canaille.
They may have managed to maim and murder less people in one period than another, but "due legal process" in the context is hardly a defence: we don't blithely accept Roman-style crucifixion because it was achieved by "due legal process", so why the crimes of the unholy Inquisition? Which other countries executed whom, in what manner and over which particular periods? Are we talking about all executions, those for religious crimes, or a mixture of the two? The fascination with the stats of murder, divorced from all the terror and mutilation which they imply, brings to mind some hideous report from a totalitarian regime ... or the sort of military bulletin which mentions only "light casualties".
This is not "evidence" but a confirmation that "sadistic, hooded fiends" need have little to fear of posterity when such a passionate advocate of carefully selected "facts" is deployed on their behalf.
Again we have the dismissive "only 4,000 people" executed - barbarously, at that; leaving aside the question of how many might have been executed had Spain been able to extend her reach during that dark period. And again we have the obscene claim that its murderous edicts were based on "evidence", without any attempt to draw the distinction between actual evidence of a crime, as anybody would understand it today, and a "thought crime" of the sort which would get you first tortured and then burned alive after "due legal process" ... by a bunch of hooded fiends.
And again, although the language is more "organised", and the typos have been corrected, there's the underlying stridency; an insist
33

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 27/04/2009 23:15:29
And again, although the language is more "organised", and the typos have been corrected, there's the underlying stridency; an insistence that logic and numbers prove that the Inquisition wasn't as bad as generally made out. It isn't prejudice that informs my opinion of the Inquisition, and it isn't any wish to depress increasingly tedious Damo with tales of the demise of the Spanish empire that leads me to recount some of the edited highlights of its descent from world power to fourth rate fascist republic; the spirit of hate, intolerance and desire to control and enslave which imbued the Inquisition burned bright in the eyes of the bandit conquistadores as they laid waste to the New World, exporting its madness and its greed. It had its echo in Franco. It was an impulse to enslave and to crush which cost not thousands but countless millions their lives, as the Spanish enslaved the New World. To see the Inquisition as a mere assemblage of stats and legal nuances when the real point - as well as those thousands of very real murders - is that religious totalitarianism poisons everything it touches. The claim that the Inquisition was an anti-Christian movement is completely irrefutable, by any sane definition of the meaning of Christianity that I have ever heard, and to attempt to defend its obscenity as being merely par for the course is as grotesque as it is misguided. How bad, one wonders, would it have had to be before it qualified as "bad"?
Nothing hyperbolic about being burned to a crisp by a wild-eyed religious loon, you'll agree; nothing ill-informed about labelling Torquemada and his revolting ilk as monsters responsible for incalculable - not possible to calculate - misery and suffering. It is not a sectarian anti-Catholic claim, as Cromwell in his time was of exactly the same kidney, but a mere statement of fact: in the face of which the close-minded fool ridden by ignorant prejudices, and self-impressed by his own ability to read some books which sup
34

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 27/04/2009 23:16:12
self-impressed by his own ability to read some books which support his whitewashed view of history, is none other than Damo the Justifier. He may claim that he is not defending or exonerating the Inquisition, and seek to demonstrate that in the bloody relative terms of the times it was not as bloodythirsty as he tells us we imagine. But he deludes himself. The stench of evil reaches across five centuries and reminds us of the dark side of religion, exemplified by the grisly horrors of the Inquisition. That's the fact our bold selective statistician is so anxious to conceal.
35

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 28/04/2009 09:55:47
It is Daemonic Damo who has nothing more to say - beyond the dry recitation of his carefully-selected stats. Let us now turn to a Modern Historian (applause) to learn the real cricumstanaces (sic) of the case:-

(Joseph McCabe, 1867-1955): The Inquisition in Spain was so characteristic, so rich in its opportunities, so successful in the total number of its murders, that it deserves to be considered separately. As to this plea of political and secular character, even Catholic priests sometimes reject the subterfuge with disgust. Bishop Hefele, one of the most resolute Catholic apologists of the nineteenth century, naturally adopted it in his "Life of Cardinal Ximenes." But when the work was translated into English (1860) and had to face the fire of British scholarship, it had a preface of Canon Dalton entirely repudiating this theory. "The Inquisition originated not so much in political as in religious motives," he says, and "no contemporary authority asserts the contrary." It is mild language. The Spanish writers he quotes emphatically represent it as a purely religious tribunal, and the shades of Ferdinand and Isabella, if there are such shades, must have warmed the atmosphere of cloud- land with their language -- which was vigorous -- when the first modern apologist raised this mendacious plea that the Spanish Inquisition was anything but strictly religious.
What I said about the economic side of the Inquisition supplies an explanation which will occur at once to the reader. It was a question of the division of the spoils. Sixtus IV and his successors greatly disliked the Spanish Inquisition because all the confiscated wealth remained in Spain. The Popes raised a little by receiving at Rome appeals -- those humane and beneficent appeals -- from the sentences of the Spanish Inquisitors, and remitting penances for a money-payment. But the Spaniards retorted by refusing to recognize the Pope's dispensations, and there was an unholy struggle.

The Spanish people
36

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 28/04/2009 09:57:22
The Spanish people, every historian tells us, were tolerant and disinclined to quarrel, but the preachers lashed them, especially against the Jews, and from the fourteenth century onward there were frequent pogroms. In 1391 four thousand Jews were killed in Seville alone. But Jews, unless they had once embraced Christianity, did not come under the cognizance of the Inquisition, and, merely reminding the reader that the final expulsion of the Jews in 1492, when (on a very moderate estimate) two hundred thousand were driven abroad with every circumstance of brutality and impoverishment, must be added to the ghastly account of the Christian religion, we must here ignore them. It is an ironic comment on the supposed "anti-social" doctrines of heretics that these expulsions of Jews and Moors ruined the brilliant civilization they had created in Spain just as the massacre of the Albigensians ruined Languedoc and the massacre of the Hussites ruined Bohemia.

Until the second half of the fifteenth century the Inquisition set up there by Gregory IX had comparatively little influence. Neither people nor rulers wanted its bloody work. With the accession of the fanatical Ferdinand and Isabella, however, and the fall of the last great Moorish city, Granada, a new era opened.

Even in the case of Isabella it is an historical fact that the priests compelled her to act. For a long time she refused the solicitation of the Dominican monks, but she yielded at last to the grim and overbearing Torquemada.

The details of the work of the Inquisition in Spain must be read in Sabatini's "Torquemada and the Spanish Inquisition" (1913): a work strangely lacking in picturesqueness and, in its effort at impartiality, falling short of the truth in the general impression it gives. A small history of the Inquisition has still to be written -- Lea's seven volumes are sound, but no one today reads a work in seven volumes.

Let us keep a sense of proportion. The record of Christianity f
37

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 28/04/2009 09:58:52
Let us keep a sense of proportion. The record of Christianity from the days when it first obtained the power to persecute is one of the most ghastly in history. The total number of Manichaeans, Arians, Priscillianists, Paulicians, Bogomiles, Cathari, Waldensians, Albigensians, witches, Lollards, Hussites, Jews and Protestants killed because of their rebellion against Rome clearly runs to many millions; and beyond these actual executions or massacres is the enormously larger number of those who were tortured, imprisoned, or beggared. I am concerned rather with the positive historical aspect of this. In almost every century a large part of the race has endeavored to reject the Christian religion, and, if in those centuries there had been the same freedom as we enjoy, Roman Catholicism would, in spite of the universal ignorance, have shrunk long ago into a sect. The religious history of Europe has never yet been written.

It is unnecessary to add that the Reformers followed for a time in the bloody footsteps of the Popes. But when Catholic apologists eagerly quote the sentiments of Reformers and the executions of Catholics by Protestants, they betray the usual lack of sense of proportion. A twelve-century-old tradition of religious persecution is not likely to be abandoned in a few decades. This particular kind of savagery, the infliction of a horrible death for opinions, had been introduced into Europe by the Christian leaders -- ancient Rome never persecuted for opinion or had any standard of orthodoxy -- and it had got into the blood. The killing of men for their beliefs by the early Protestants was murder just as was the killing of men by the Inquisition. It is a mockery to ask us to detect any divine interest in Churches during those fourteen centuries of ghastly injustice and inhumanity.
38

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 28/04/2009 10:00:53
Let us repeat one telling phrase: "This particular kind of savagery, the infliction of a horrible death for opinions, had been introduced into Europe by the Christian leaders -- ancient Rome never persecuted or opinion or had any standard of orthodoxy -- and it had got into the blood."

Cardinal Fang ... the Comfy Chair, if you please ....
39

Bolivarian Scot,

BorisTown 28/04/2009 11:06:26
# 48 Damo Lennon -

In your increasingly comic and Warneresque efforts to whitewash (God help us) the Spanish Inquisition, you seem to have taken your eye off the ball regarding the main debate about Obama vs Bush.

You ask: "Please explain how my focus on "natural-born American" suggests racism?"

OK.... but there is a slightly self-defensive / aggrieved tone creeping into your postings which, together with your failure to engage with points raised by other contributors, is getting tedious.

For example.....

You said: "I don't know what double-standards you are referring to as regards Bush. Show me one post - just ONE post - where I so much as mentioned Bush on this thread, other than #26."

Other than # 26. Just as a reminder about "relevance" - Warner's original article is about Obama AND Bush.

As you well know, Damo, the double-standards ARISE from the fact that you've repeatedly chosen not to discuss Bush II. You've explained, in great detail, why you think that Obama is unqualified to be POTUS, which is fair enough; but Bush II was, if anything, even less qualified, and the worst that you've said about Bush II, so far, is that he was a "buffoon" (#26), which is like saying that the worst thing about Hitler was his Charlie Chaplin moustache.

You said: "Please try to keep things evidence-based (you are not the only one on this thread who needs to keep that in mind)."

That's rich! You insist that the question of Obama's US citizenship is clear-cut but, again......where's YOUR evidence, apart from rightwing blogging? US case law IS extremely vague (hence the Wikipedia reference, with sources, which you naturally pooh-pooh). Otherwise, why aren't the Republican leadership agitating for a full investigation of Obama's origins? Could it be that the outcome of such an investigation would be far from certain?

You said: "Again, where have I said Obama is a Marxist?"

Damo - I appreciate that you're distracted by your gladiatorial du
40

Bolivarian Scot,

28/04/2009 11:09:44
/ ..... [Continued]

You said: "Again, where have I said Obama is a Marxist?"

Damo - I appreciate that you're distracted by your gladiatorial duel with Retiarius, but in order to have a proper debate, you need to read things properly. I never accused you of labelling Obama a "Marxist"; it was a reference to current Republican "thinking".

In other words - the debate isn't all about you! Or at least, it shouldn't be....

You said: "Your aversion to evidence and insistence on making things up about me, naturally raise suspicions that you are just another brainwashed, liberal "Obamatron," default setting to any criticism -'you are a racist!'"

Again, you're being tediously selective (as in the Inquisition debate). Check out # 37 - I criticised Obama's policy towards Cuba, Big Finance etc. How does that make me an "Obamatron"?

I doubt that the subtlety went over your head so my conclusion must therefore be that you either overlooked my point or ignored it.

To summarise:

1.) I don't think that you're a racist for merely questioning Obama.

2.) You're quite wrong to suggest that I'm an uncritical "Obamatron".

3.) I suspect that you're a conservative - which is fair enough; that's your prerogative - but why not just admit it?! You've already "come out" as a fan of the Spanish Inquisition, so I think that the galleon of embarrassment has already sailed ;-)
41

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 28/04/2009 11:45:26
Oh I see! He's the WRONG KIND of modern historian! He's got to be a living historian, a fanatical supporter of the Spanish Inquisition and on a list personally authorised by Daemonic Daemon! Since you ask, it took me about five seconds to retrieve Mr McCabe's insightful work, of which you will be treated to generous extracts during the weeks ahead. Keep rolling the myths, Dammy boy!
Meanwhile, as you gobble and stutter with laugh-a-mintute (?) and critising (?) fury, here's a wee reminder of what one might expect at the hands of Demented Damien's Spanish social workers: nice to see waterboarding making an early showing -

The methods of torture most used by the Inquisition were garrucha, toca and the potro. The application of the garrucha, also known as the strappado, consisted of suspending the criminal from the ceiling by a pulley with weights tied to the ankles, with a series of lifts and drops, during which arms and legs suffered violent pulls and were sometimes dislocated. The toca, also called tortura del agua, consisted of introducing a cloth into the mouth of the victim, and forcing them to ingest water spilled from a jar so that they had impression of drowning (see: waterboarding). The potro, the rack, was the instrument of torture used most frequently.

The assertion that "confessionem esse veram, non factam vi tormentorum" (the confession was true and free) sometimes follows a description of how, presently after torture ended, the subject freely confessed to the offenses.
42

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 28/04/2009 12:29:37
FAO Bolivarian Scot - just a note to confirm (not that it's needed) how rational and unbiased we both are, while Damo is some crazy, neo-con religious fundamentalist. I don't know about facts, but one certainly feels emotions when Damo commits his unusual line of thinking to print. As for "gut instinct" - I think the smattering of commentary reproduced above goes rather farther than that, and of course there's plenty more to come - not that any of this is likely to deter our number two fan of the Spanish Inquisition. Number one? Gerry of course!
Keep the myths rolling lads!
43

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 28/04/2009 13:14:58
Au contraire, Senor Nut Job, you can not find typos in my posts, or you and your hooded friends would have found them by now!
Also I fail to see how a fairly dry recitation of the known and undisputed (except by you) facts of Spanish torture can lend itself to accusations of self-titillation; and actually if there were any special websites devoted to such matters I am utterly certain you would have them bookmarked under "My Favourite Catholic Torture Websites". How else could you know so much about such a rather seedy subject - you're practically Mastermind material (Our next contender is Damo Torquemada, a clerk, whose specialist subject is Humanitarian and Benevolent Tortures and Murders During the Spanish Inquisition).
It is you who fails to answer questions! You who displays not one scintilla of ordinary humanity in your blithe minimalisation of crimes McCabe rightly described as an abomination! It is you who stoops to rather unpleasant slanders in the forlorn hope of regaining some of the ground you have lost in the course of your preposterous arguments. Actually everything you have said - including your "not as horrifying" bit, does indeed confirm you as a loyal and unswerving fan of Torquemada and all his works. Originality in fact IS my forte - this is why you dismiss descriptive text as "hyperbole", knowing that your spelling, syntax, imagination and grammar are not up to the job of conducting grown up argument. The sneering, aggressive, hectoring tone of your aberrant missives reveals you to be somebody who only feels adequate when he's barking abstruse questions at his intended victims. I would be happy to continue deriding you throughout the afternoon, but must now communicate with less excitable people - so rave and bleat away to your heart's content for the time being; I'll be back with another VERY interesting Modern Historian much later on.
Keep rolling the myths - and, incidentally, by all means try holding your breath, preferably underwa
44

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 28/04/2009 13:15:50
ter.


I dare say you might have guessed that bit.
45

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 28/04/2009 17:15:05
"Awe Flower! I didn't realise a big, strong manly gladiator like you was so sensitive. Shall I be nicer to you in future, Petal?"

No thanks. I think it's quite bad enough dealing with your usual "sensationalist" self.
All joking aside, I think you have some personal issues you should consider dealing with: I'd continue to argue away quite cheerfully, but there's a hom*-er*tic tone creeping in to your missives which I personally find disturbing, rather than offensive.
There's no shame in having lost your argument, so comprehensively, but take time to reflect on how you should address your real underlying problem - you'll feel better for it in the long run.
46

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 28/04/2009 22:20:08
Reallyhairyass,

Is this satyr?

You're a scream!
Running away while claiming victory fools no-one.

Never ran; simple statement of factl no deception intended.

I'm not sure of two things - not sure why you think there is anything homoerotic about my posts,

Try reading them - they're a bit disturbing, in my view.


and not sure why someone who names himself after a semi-naked gladiator and indulges in sado-masochistic torture fantasies should be so disturbed by this imagined homoeroticism.

As far as I'm aware all gladiators were semi-naked, except a few at the lower end of the scale (clowns) who wore tunics, so I'm not sure why this is important to you ...?

I don't have sadomasochistic torture fantasies; the torture I described (strapado, waterboarding, etc) was a fairly dry recitation of facts. I think you need some sort of help.

Come to think of it though, the second part probably explains the first.

No, it doesn't.

Don't worry though, I'm comfortable enough with my own sexuality to continue our discussion.

Well I'm not comfortable with your sexuality to discuss anything regarding sexuality with you, because I think you are ill and need help.

Where's this, "VERY interesting modern historian," you were threatening me with earlier?

Trust me - you wouldn't like it; it's not your kind of thing.

Anyone reading this thread can see I have torn your argument to shreds.

No they can't. Anyone reading this thread can see your a nut with some very disturbing fixations. Sorry.
If anybody does think as you imagine, perhaps they'll write in to say so - the debate can hardly get any worse - otherwise no, OI don't think so. I think the opposite is the case.

See post #76 which pretty much sums it up.


No, I can't be bothered; no it doesn't sum it up.

In reply, all you have at your disposal is scorn based on absolutely zero evidence. This has had to make up for the paucity of your subject knowledge.

No, I have at my d
47

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 28/04/2009 22:22:56
No, I have at my disposal reason, a good general knowledge of history(including an understanding of religion and realpolitik in 16th century Spain); I've also got admittedly modern notions of death and torture. My essential argument is that a mere comparison of the number of corpses produced by one movement or another misses the point; the "evangelical" (New World) corollary of the Inquisition seems to me the greatest evil of all- that the disease travelled the ocean to afflict millions of people.

If you've got anything of substance to add (it would be a first,

No, it wouldn't; a substantive argument, achieved, equates to substance. You may choose to disagree, but
that doesn't really signify. Least of all to me.

but hope springs eternal), please do.

Well I will if I think I have something useful to contribute, but I can't be bothered trading insults with you because you're boring. And a bit creepy.
48

Retiarius,

28/04/2009 23:46:56
Firstly, how ironic to see you get all precious about your new name, after some of the names you have called me on this thread.

You don't like being called Torquemada? I'm not precious at all, in the sense that you imply: the deft rebuttal of a crude blow made it quite worthwhile, albeit unintentionally on your part.

Secondly, how the mighty have fallen. The man who makes no typos or spelling mistakes now confuses "satire" with a mythological half-man, half-goat creature!

This paragraph, sadly, confirms you to be a half-man, half-goat creature, certainly in the intellectual sense.

Again, I think you protest too much - semi-naked gladiators, torture fantasies, and now a Freudian slip over creatures which were said to have permanent erections! lol!

No, it's only a Freudian slip to you, because you're a bit odd and have a thing about "semi-naked gladiators", which is a tautology. I don't have any fantasies linked to torture; like most people I don't find it attractivei in any way, quite the opposite.

"Trust me - you wouldn't like it; it's not your kind of thing."

Is there some kind of implied threat there? Given your interests, when you tell me it's not my kind of thing, you're probably right!

No, it's a simple statement of fact; I don't think you're capable of a rational discussion about anything worthwhile. I'm not bothered about your innuendo; you're boring.

"No they can't. Anyone reading this thread can see your a nut with some very disturbing fixations. Sorry."

Typos and errors Reallyhairyass! Should have been "you're." You really are rattled, aren't you? Flushed too I'll bet.

No, I'm not flushed; yes, it should have been "you're" - I was just testing, as in "factl", above, a pun on a Nahuatl word. No, I'm not either rattled far less "really rattled". Just bored.

"No, I have at my disposal reason, a good general knowledge of history(including an understanding of religion and realpolitik in 16th century Spain)"

lol! You we
49

Retiarius,

28/04/2009 23:49:00
No, I'm not flushed; yes, it should have been "you're" - I was just testing, as in "factl", above, a pun on a Nahuatl word. No, I'm not either rattled far less "really rattled". Just bored.

"No, I have at my disposal reason, a good general knowledge of history(including an understanding of religion and realpolitik in 16th century Spain)"

lol! You were talking about the 16th century as "medieval" earlier! And you can't tell the difference between anti-Catholic propaganda and reliable historical research.

Nor you between pro-Inquisition sophistry at the expense of reason and humanity. lol. Whatever that means. I know what medieval means; the term can be used an an attribute as well as a period of history.


You also think Henry VIII was given the title Defender of the Faith for "keeping the French in check!" (#32) Good general knowledge of history my *ss, Reallyhairyass!

No, I don't think that: I think it was probably a good deal more complicated than that; in fact that was a tenable example of hyperbole. Well spotted.

Don't even get me started about "reason." To paraphrase Edmund Blackadder, you wouldn't know reason
if it gave you a haircut.

Commendable use of a reliable source, accurately quoted, in an unambiguous context. I don't agree,
but always a good idea to borrow a witticism when you can't think of one yourself.

"Well I will if I think I have something useful to contribute, but I can't be bothered trading insults with you because you're boring."

What? You STILL haven't contributed anything of substance.

I think I demonstrated fairly straightforwardly that the opposite is the case, a few lines above.

If you can't stop talking to someone you find boring, you must never shut up when you like someone!

Writing in response to juvenile insults hurled by a crazed banana of the first fruit basket at the tail end of a web board affixed to a column written by Gerald Warner is not "talking". Not for me, at any rate.

"And
50

Retiarius,

28/04/2009 23:49:33
"And a bit creepy."

So let's get this straight (ooh matron!), YOU'VE got a gladiator, torture and satyr fixation, and I'M a bit creepy?!?

Ok, let's get this straight; no I don't have any of the fixations you suggest, and, yes, in my view, you are a bit creepy.
51

Retiarius,

28/04/2009 23:49:58
And very, very, boring.
52

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 29/04/2009 14:02:16
Naw, you thrashed yourself - particularly over the satyr. Just a thought, but maybe try get yourself a job? Give you something to do.
53

Retiarius,

A flop house on the Aventine 29/04/2009 14:07:57
"to bring to this debate": it's not a debate - just a daft wee boy making an *rse of himself. Had to remove your obscene post, 83. Maybe try The Star web board - your sort of thing.
54

Bolivarian Scot,

BorisTown 29/04/2009 14:30:57
# 67 Damo Lennon -

"And now Bolivarian Scot attempts to form an alliance with Retiarius!"

Where in my postings # 63 and 64 do I even mention Retarius?! Grow up! This isn't "Grange Hill", it's Scotland on Sunday! I am perfectly entitled to express a view about the Inquisition which differs from your own.

You said: "I didn't realise two things before I posted #10. I didn't realise I had an obligation to offer an opinion on Bush, who is now the former President. He's gone. Get over him."

Of course you needn't offer an opinion on Bush but concentrating on just Obama rather undermines your credibility: Obama isn't the first-ever POTUS whose credentials have been questioned, eg remember how Reagan was lampooned as a cowboy actor, Clinton as a corrupt, randy Southerner etc?

"Secondly, I didn't realise that you are the policeman of this thread, in charge of ensuring fairness etc. Please accept my humble apologies for not commenting on Bush to your satisfaction..... I have not 'repeatedly chosen not to discuss Bush.' I'm not interested in Bush, any more than I am interested in Clinton or Bush senior. Maybe I should be commenting on all of them, as well as Reagan and Carter? How about Ford, Nixon, LBJ and JFK? Don't be such a prat."

Aiming for sarcasm, Damo, but achieving petulance. If I WERE the policeman, my friend, I'd ask you to refrain from insults, however mild. "Prat" is how you describe me; but as you can see from the above and other threads, I don't use insults because I think they're rather.....pathetic and counter-productive, especially in print.

You said: "And just in the interests of relevance, the orignial article is NOT about Obama AND Bush, it is about Obama alone. Gerald Warner makes not one single reference to Bush."

Wrong again, Damo. Please re-read the article. Apart from being about the change of emphasis in US foreign policy COMPARED TO the last government (waterboarding etc), Warner specifically refers to "Dubya" in li
55

Bolivarian Scot,

BorisTown 29/04/2009 14:33:01
/ ..... [continued]

You said: "And just in the interests of relevance, the orignial article is NOT about Obama AND Bush, it is about Obama alone. Gerald Warner makes not one single reference to Bush."

Wrong again, Damo. Please re-read the article. Apart from being about the change of emphasis in US foreign policy COMPARED TO the last government (waterboarding etc), Warner specifically refers to "Dubya" in line 3 of the last paragraph. Pedantic but true. Therefore if it's worth querying Obama's fitness for the job because you're worried about what MIGHT happen, it's certainly worth revisiting Bush II's credentials to judge against what ACTUALLY happened (illegal war, Wall Street meltdown etc).

But you're a stickler for evidence, so you already know that.

"My evidence for casting doubt on Obama's status as a natural-born American has been set out #10.
Your 'evidence' to the contrary is that a dubious certificate was posed on the internet by Obama's campaign team. You wonder why the Republicans are not agitating for a full investigation? I don't know. Maybe for the same reasons the Democrats let the issue of the Florida voting scandal, which let in Bush in 2001, drop?"

Damo - you may be right; but posting a "dodgy birth certificate" on the internet is a high-risk strategy in this day and age, don't you think?

"You bring up the issue of Obama and Marxism, which you admit I did not mention. So now I'm responsible for things OTHER people have ...said?"

More petulance - when did I say that you're responsible for others' opinions? To clarify (again): this thread isn't just about YOU.

"I am not a conservative, and I am not a "fan" of the Spanish Inquisition."

Maybe not but you haven't articulated what you DO stand for, apart from some nitpicking about the Spanish Inquisition.

"Never mind the facts - feel the emotion!" ..... said the man who referred to an opponent as "Reallyhairyass" (# 78).

"Misrepresentation is something you seem to
56

Bolivarian Scot,

BorisTown 29/04/2009 14:35:46
/ ..... [continued]

"Misrepresentation is something you seem to specialise in."

More "Grange Hill"-style nonsense. You said you aren't a racist; I've acknowledged that (twice so far).

Now, since I've demonstrated, in my "Marxism" comments (# 37), that I am no "Obamatron", as you unwisely alleged in # 48, it might be graceful of you to concede that much .....

However, I am not holding my breath!
57

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 29/04/2009 15:11:05
' "Never mind the facts - feel the emotion!" ..... said the man who referred to an opponent as "Reallyhairyass" (# 78)." '

I didn't mind that; it inspired me to ask whether this was "satyr", punning on "satire", as "reallyhairyass" is clearly a good name for a satyr. But he thought I had simply mis-spelled "satire", and didn't get it. Dealing with the hoi polloi you encounter on web boards is so boring ...
58

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 29/04/2009 15:51:34
Nah, you didn't get it. You had to look up Wikipedia to find what a satyr is. Sad. You lost the actual argument about 68 posts ago - the rest is mere tantrum. Try The Daily Star web board - loads of friends for you there. They might even let you keep some of the obscenities I had the administrator remove.
59

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 29/04/2009 16:18:19
No, I only report comments which are obscene; the rest merely serves to underscore your own humiliation. Had to look up "satyr" on Wikipedia. Tragic.
60

Retiarius,

Pompey's place on the Capitoline 29/04/2009 16:35:44
"I said I'd come back to rip the **** out of you today"

You didn't though, Mr George Bernard Shaw - instead you were made to look ridiculous; you have the distinction of having suffered not only the most comprehensive but also the most humiliating and embarrassing defeat of any contributor to this web board, ever, and must live with the shame, day and daily, as best you may, for all time.

61

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 29/04/2009 17:07:32
Which is of course what you so richly deserve for your wildly unsuccessful defence of the Spanish Inquisition ... and your truly pathetic wee vulgarities.
62

Retiarius,

29/04/2009 21:34:19
"Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!"

Quite! I'd be just as disconsolate, in similar circumstances.

In answer any (boring and repetitive) future expressions of teenage angst and frustration, see 103.,above.
63

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 30/04/2009 00:48:11
103.

64

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 30/04/2009 10:39:46
Ha Ha! Lol! In your guilty dreams, ya wee nyaff!

103.
65

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 30/04/2009 13:12:48
"Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!"

(Lemon)

"83.Comment Removed By Administrator"

(Lemon)

Ha ha ha ha ha ha! LOL!
66

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 30/04/2009 13:13:40
103.
67

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 30/04/2009 18:13:30
It's "ad nauseam"

103.

("105, plum.") Soor ploom. Heid-the-ba'.
68

Retiarius,

30/04/2009 20:34:43
103. Heid-the-ba.
69

Retiarius,

30/04/2009 20:35:59
"83. Comment Removed By Administrator"

LOL!!
70

Bolivarian Scot,

BorisTown 30/04/2009 21:58:11
# 98 Damo Lennon -

You said: "That'll be why every post you have made on this thread is addressed to ME."

The points are addressed to you - that's politeness, which is probably why you got a bit confused - but they are not all ABOUT you (eg the sections about Obama's "Marxism", Bush II etc etc etc).

Warner's article is about the difference between Obama's "appeasement" (renunciation of the previous government's torture etc); YOUR thread is about Obama's birth certificate and the Spanish Inquisition. Heigh-ho....

However, if your curious, personalised style of debate and pedantry sidetracks discussion from the main issues, I truly regret that and I'll try to avoid such digressions future occasions! You are NOT as interesting as the issues!

However, let me flatter your ego one final time by asking: what have we established so far? :-

1.) You are not a racist.

2.) You are a pedant (but not always a very successful one).

3.) You are willing to query Obama's fitness to govern, and speculate upon the dire consequences of the next 4 years, but you won't discuss Bush II, from whom Obama inherited a mess, or indeed any other POTUS....

4.) You think that the Spanish Inquisition weren't all that bad, really....

5.) But you are NOT a conservative!

4.) US case law on the "natural born citizenship" issue is far from clear-cut (even if you don't have the good grace to concede as much). Follow-up question: is it realistic to expect the USA to introduce additional and unnecssary instability into the world economy by re-running the Presidential competition because some rightwing diehards are dissatisfied with the Nov-08 electoral outcome which, lest we forget, was also about policies and issues? Let's get real!

6.) I am not an "Obamatron" nor even an "Obamafan". Democrats and Republicans..... they're "two cheeks of the same backside".

7.) You think that the Spanish Inquisition isn't as bad as it's painted. Fair enough!

8.) You use i
71

Bolivarian Scot,

BorisTown 30/04/2009 22:07:02
/ ...... [continued]

8.) You use insults to denigrate your opponents. I don't. Well done you!

9.) Er......

10.) That's it.

72

Bolivarian Scot,

BorisTown 30/04/2009 22:27:14
And just when you thought that I'd finished: a few comments on ..... the Spanish Inquisition!

Because "NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!"

(Sorry, I couldn't resist a Python reference).

Good old Wikipedia shows that the Inquisition used "waterboarding" techniques, same as Torquemada Bush's CIA (see section "The trial" in the following article):-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

Clearly a very nasty and wholly indefensible shower of blackguards..... and so was the Inquisition!

;-)
73

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 30/04/2009 23:35:12
"Such a sad little specimen"
(heid-the-ba)

"83. Comment Removed By Administrator"
(heid-the-ba)

"you just don't get how this "debating" lark works, do you?" hahahahaha hahaha hahahahahaha ha!


"Is this satyr?"

The man who makes no typos or spelling mistakes now confuses "satire" with a mythological half-man, half-goat creature!
(heid-the-ba') hahahah ahahahahahahahahah! hahahahaha!
hahahaha! HEID-THE-BA!

74

Retiarius,

01/05/2009 11:02:24
"Damo Lennon,01/05/2009 06:52:06"

Heid-the-ba!
75

Retiarius,

01/05/2009 11:05:24
"an already psychological fragile man"


"Damo Lennon,01/05/2009 06:52:06"

HEID-THE-BA'!
76

Retiarius,

01/05/2009 11:33:33
Reallyairyass,

Unfortunate typo

If you were a dog, they'd have shot you by now.

The Spanish Inquisition?

I don't believe in euthanasia though, so you will just have to cope with your madness as best you can.

I do believe in euthanasia, so away and gie yourself a course in home waterboarding

Shouting "HEID-THE-BA'!" repeatedly is obviously therapeutic for you, so good luck with that.

Thanks - heid-the-ba'

Any sign of your "VERY interesting modern historian" friend yet?

Yes.

Or are you too busy playing with the giant talking white rabbit to bring him along today?

Partly - I'd rather talk to a giant talking white rabbit that have to keep reminding you of your ignominy, heid-the-ba'.

I almost feel sorry for you.

"Is this satyr?" (winner)

"The man who makes no typos or spelling mistakes now confuses "satire" with a mythological half-man, half-goat creature!" (heid-the-ba')

We ALL feel sorry for you!

103.


77

Retiarius,

02/05/2009 12:28:29
"I don't know how your credibility on this board can ever recover." Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha hah ha hah ha ha!!!!!


"Is this satyr?" (winner)

"The man who makes no typos or spelling mistakes now confuses "satire" with a mythological half-man, half-goat creature!" (heid-the-ba')

HEID-THE-BA'!!!!!

103.
78

Retiarius,

02/05/2009 12:30:36
"an already psychological fragile man" (heid-the-ba')

HEID-THE-BA'!!!!!
79

Retiarius,

02/05/2009 12:31:54
"I do believe in euthanasia, so away and gie yourself a course in home waterboarding"

"What a hurtful (not to mention illiberal) thing to say! Or are you hoping to recruit me to your torture-fixated lifestyle?" (heid-the-ba')

Naw - wis hopin' ye'd drown yerself ..
80

Retiarius,

03/05/2009 00:41:59
Everybody thinks you're a tube.

103.
81

Bolivarian Scot,

BorisTown 03/05/2009 09:01:59
# 124 Damo Lennon -

Ha! You're right about the "counting to ten" part - I should have spotted that! However, to the average punter, it's probably forgiveable - like the odd typo, eh Damo?!

You also have a point when you say that the Spanish Inquisition's murders have been exaggerated - although that doesn't, of course, excuse the Inquisition in any way: they still practised torture, killing, repression and censorship. They'll never be rehabilitated!

You see, Damo - some of us - the adults - have the grace to concede the odd point here and there, without feeling that we've "lost face". Because, at the end of the day, it's just an online debate..... Maybe you should keep that in mind when trying, bully-style, to rub people's noses in the dirt.

But of course you are so inflexible that you cling desperately to the notion that the "natural-born American" definition is cut-and-dried, even though case law, and actual events, show otherwise.

Heigh-ho! "You can take a horse to water" etc.

The rest of your points in # 124 are inaccurate. For example, "You learned everything you know from Wikipedia." Tsk, tsk - how could you possibly know my educational background? Actually I learned a lot from Monty Python and "Carry On - Don't Lose Your Head" too ;-)

And what's this "sanctimonious prat" and "ray of sunshine" nonsense? Obviously you think that personalised insults = urbane humour, and politeness = dullness. How wrong you are.

Judging by his lucid and informative comments, Retiarius is well able to look after himself but if he threw in the occasional (uncharacteristic) insult, that's forgiveable - you have a provocative and abusive manner that tests patience and goodwill to the limit.

Quite frankly, anyone who engages in debate with you, and treats you like an adult, is doing you a favour. Anyone reading this thread in months to come will conclude that 99% of the insults - and all of the most puerile ones - originated from yourself.

82

Bolivarian Scot,

BorisTown 03/05/2009 09:04:24
/........ [continued]

One final thought.

I guess the fact that at least one of your abusive postings was deleted, means that at least one reader, the Administrator, agrees.

Or will you try to deny that that happened, too?
83

Bolivarian Scot,

BorisTown 06/05/2009 12:34:20
# 145 Damo Lennon said:

"I suppose you consider #136 to be particularly, 'lucid and informative?'"

About as lucid and informative as # 135, which begins: "Reallyhairyass,

You have been exposed as a raving lunatic on a national newspaper's message board.

A slabbering, goggle-eyed, foaming-at-the-mouth lunatic...."

You said: "Your attempts to claim the moral high ground are just as laughable. You're posts are littered with condescension, which seems to be your weapon of choice when your points are repeatedly refuted."

Point of order, Damo - refusing to discuss points isn't the same as refuting them!

As for claiming the moral high ground - more than happy to do so, based on the complete absence of abuse in my posts. Compare, contrast and learn!

"Single fish" indeed!
84

Bolivarian Scot,

BorisTown 06/05/2009 13:47:19
# 139 Cynicus in Exile -

I just read your post in which you ask for Retiarius, and myself to summarise Damo's arguments (and vice versa). Thank you for trying to bring some light to a heated debate that degenerated into acrimony!

So.... here goes.

I'm not as impressively well-versed in mediaeval history and the Spanish Inquisition as the other two, my principal influence being Monty Python! However, I think I can summarise Damo's position as follows.

Damo seems to believe that the Inquisition's misdeeds (whether in the name of Spain or the Pope) are not as great as painted by contemporary historians and writers such as Voltaire; eg the number of direct killings perpetrated by the Inquisition is quite small by modern-day standards.

That's a fairly uncontroversial proposition to accept, given the gigantic scale of Stalinist purges and other 20th century genocides. However, Damo seems to be very relaxed not only about the Inquisition's killings but also its well-documented track record of widespread repression, persecution, censorship and cruelty, as detailed by Retiarius.

Damo's unwillingness to compare and contrast the track record of Obama and Bush II in terms of torture etc (ie the subject of Warner's article) is symptomatic of that dismissive approach, as is labelling me an "Obamatron", despite reminders that I had already criticised Obama's track record.

The other (secondary) debate was regarding Obama's fitness to be POTUS. Damo queries his US citizenship and birth certificate, referring to the definition of "natural-born citizen". He believes that US case law is absolutely clear-cut. He describes Obama as "a disaster waiting to happen" but does not accept that that opinion is a prediction whereas Bush II's track is 8 years long and verifiable.

Finally, Damo is not a racist or a conservative.

That's it!
85

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 06/05/2009 17:39:25
NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Perhaps naively, I thought this, er, "debate" had ended with my singularly abrupt insult to Damo Lennon - a character from the TV series Father Ted - but now discover that it is still apparently bubbling away in some remote quarter of the ether, perused by who knows what.
When Mr Lennon complains that I "ran crying to the Moderator" for what he is happy to portray as a piece of inoffensive whimsy he is as disingenuous as his putrid argument, based on base stars, is disgusting. He is correct that he has nothing more to say to me, as I dispensed with his ridiculous line of argument at least a week ago (but it seems longer).
In fact I reported him to the moderator (provoking all sorts of claims about sexually eccentric behaviour on my part) for the simple reason that it was obscene - although he appears to regard obscenity as just a bit of fun.
And so it is, too, on the web board of Heart of Midlothian or of some ghastly tabloid.
This is the web board of a columnist writing in Scotland on Sunday, and - call me Torquemada if you like - some varieties of low behaviour will simply not be tolerated.
To do so would render us primitive and savage. Father Lennon? Father Jack, more like .....
86

Retiarius,

06/05/2009 17:40:25
Sorry, "base stats".
87

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 07/05/2009 14:03:16
3) (Father Jack/Lennon): "Drrrrr....ink! Nuns! Gorls!"
88

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 07/05/2009 16:48:02
Father Ted: "Fascists dress in black and go around telling people what to do, whereas priests... more drink!"
89

Retiarius,

Amid the nymphs and satyrs 14/05/2009 14:54:25
Well, it took you 160 posts to finally confess what's at the root of all your angst, and nobody will think the worse of you for your confession. Well done for getting it out in the open, and best of luck with your quest for self-knowledge and honesty. I'm not sure why you need to be regarded as a "gladiator", but I expect it's something to do with your gay culture. At any rate, I hope having informed us, at last, of your proclivity, you will feel more at peace with yourself.
I'm a boring old "straight", myself, I'm afraid, but I've nothing against your kind at all. Best of luck, old fruit.
90

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 16/05/2009 12:25:54
Here's some quote marks for you, Mr newly-outed:

"I should have realised someone as poorly educated as yourself"

Not so poorly educated, however, that I have to look up "satyr" on Wikipedia - how can you endure the shame?

"Only a straight man would name himself after a semi-naked gladiator and indulge in torture fantasies."

What's your evidence for this curious assertion?

"Now, have you found any supporting evidence for your wild claims about the Spanish Inquisition yet?"

I made no "wild claims". It is you who is "wild", as has been remarked by more than one perfectly sane commentator, above.

"Thought not."

No - "not thought". Now away and get your costume ironed for the gay parade ...
91

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 24/05/2009 11:22:45
If you were to read the actual arguments instead of braying a lot of badly-constructed and puerile insults it might be worth the time and trouble of teaching you the error of you ways ... but pigs might fly.
Where, for example, am I "homophobic"? I thought I was trying to show you understanding in the difficulties you face in a sometimes hostile world, dominated as it is by heterosexual men.
You don't have to take out your gay angst on bloggers; there are people only too willing to help you come to terms with yourself.
However, as to "I'm sure if you ran along to the parade you speak of dressed in your Retiarius costume, you'd be more than welcome", even if I owned such a costume I have no intentions of providing you with entertainment, as you watch the parade go by with glistening lips and a fixed stare ... you'll have to find your, ahem, entertainment somewhere else ...

(you lose again - but keep trying: it's sort of fun watching you thrash impotently about ..)
92

Retiarius,

Batavadorum 04/06/2009 20:58:16
"Next to a battle lost, I think the saddest thing I have ever seen is a battle won"

(Wellington)

 

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