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Moscow refuses to budge as US sends in navy

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Published Date: 25 August 2008
A UNITED States warship delivered humanitarian aid to Georgia yesterday, as Moscow ignored new western demands to pull its remaining troops out of the Caucasus country's heartland.
Russia says the soldiers are peacekeepers needed to avert further bloodshed and to protect Georgia's separatist, pro-Moscow provinces of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

But in a sign of simmering tensions, a fuel train exploded on Georgia's main east
-west rail line, near the central town of Gori, after apparently hitting a landmine.

Lado Gurgenidze, Georgia's prime minister, said the damaged rail link was vital to the economy of Georgia and its neighbours; officials in Azerbaijan said oil cargoes were being held up at the Georgian border following the explosion.

Meanwhile, in Batumi, 50 miles south of the port of Poti where Russian troops are still present, a giant crane unloaded 55 tonnes of aid from the US destroyer McFaul.

The warship is fitted with an array of weaponry, including Tomahawk cruise missiles, which can carry either conventional or nuclear warheads, and a sophisticated radar system.

General Anatoly Nogovitsyn, the deputy chief of Russia's general staff, suggested the arrival of the McFaul and other Nato members' ships would increase tensions in the Black Sea. Russia shares the sea with Nato members Turkey, Romania and Bulgaria, as well as Georgia and Ukraine, whose pro-western president also is leading a drive for Nato membership.

Two other US ships also are due in Batumi: the US has already delivered some aid by military cargo plane, but is now shipping in beds and food.

David Kezerashvili, Georgia's defence minister, said: "The United States is our great friend. They have arrived at such a difficult time. It means we are not alone."

The Russia-Georgia conflict erupted just over two weeks ago after Tbilisi tried to retake South Ossetia. A Russian counter- offensive pushed into Georgia proper, crossing its main east-west highway. Russian troops also moved into western Georgia from Abkhazia, another breakaway region on the Black Sea. Hundreds were killed, tens of thousands displaced and housing and infrastructure wrecked in the fighting.

The US and Europe fear a continued Russian presence will cement Georgia's ethnic partition, undermine the president Mikheil Saakashvili's pro-western government and threaten vital energy pipelines criss-crossing the country.

Russia's action has also unnerved other former Soviet republics. Moscow sees these as part of its legitimate sphere of influence and opposes their Nato applications, but the US envoy to the Caucasus said Russia's action had inadvertently helped Georgia's bid to join the alliance.

In Georgia, the West is particularly worried about a Russian checkpoint set up at Poti, hundreds of kilometres from South Ossetia and outside the security zone Russia says is covered by its peacekeeping mandate.

Underscoring the potential for renewed violence, Russian soldiers manning a checkpoint on the road between Zugdidi and Senaki in western Georgia fired shots in the air to disperse a protest by angry residents. No injuries were reported.

Russia has deployed its "peacekeepers" in the Poti area and in a buffer zone outside South Ossetia and Abkhazia, saying they are allowed under the terms of a French-brokered ceasefire deal. But France has urged Moscow to order its forces out of Poti as soon as possible.

Though not Georgia's busiest port for oil, Poti can load up to 100,000 barrels per day of oil products, which arrive by rail from Azerbaijan. It is also the gateway for merchandise moving to Georgia, other Caucasus republics and Central Asia.

The French president Nicolas Sarkozy's office said he and Dmitry Medvedev, his Russian counterpart, had agreed on Saturday on the need for an international mechanism under the auspices of the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe to replace Russian patrols in a buffer zone south of South Ossetia. However, the Kremlin said replacing Russian peacekeepers had not been discussed.





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  • Last Updated: 24 August 2008 9:33 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Georgia , Russia
 
1

Postmark-55,

China, 25/08/2008 02:21:45
I see that this particular 'Trojan Horse' is fitted with an array of weaponry, including Tomahawk cruise missiles, which can carry either conventional or nuclear warheads, and a sophisticated radar system.


Nice 'aid' package.
2

Mashimaro,

China 25/08/2008 02:23:50
Again the US catpaws. Why send aid by military ship?
3

Postmark-55,

China, 25/08/2008 02:58:09
Good morning Mashimaro,
Congrats on the best Olympics ever.
4

Postmark-55,

China, 25/08/2008 03:05:49
By the way Mashimaro,
It's the American way, first we destroy you, thus the destroyer, and then we'll bandage you up better than new.

Ask any Iraqi, oh wait, they've only been destroyed so far, maybe, just maybe, the aid will come later,

Via nuclear warheads.
5

Paul_in_Cali,

San Jose 25/08/2008 05:02:13
It's called "being ready for everything to go pear shaped!" ;)
6

Itchy,

25/08/2008 06:19:15
#3 and #4 Communists just love killing people - look at Mao's great leap forward and the cultural revolution.
7

,

25/08/2008 06:25:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
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8

James Donald,

Newbridge 25/08/2008 08:18:17
#1 Postmark-55,Red China - It may come as news to you that Navy ships carry weaponry and radar but at least the aid was delivered to Georgia in a ship that is well able to defend itself. A warship also sends a message to the Russians in the only language they understand - a show of armed force in support of an ally.
NATO controls the entrance to the Black Sea (as indeed it does to the Baltic)so it is no problem to send aid to Georgia by sea or even overland via Turkey. These routes will also be convenient when NATO eventually re-equips and retrains the Georgia Army up to NATO standards prior to membership.
9

Mashimaro,

China 25/08/2008 10:03:54
Jimmy Dee those israelis arms hustlers will be making big money, you reckon? So Georgia must borrow US money to buyy weapons from Israel...hmmmm I smell the rat
10

James Donald,

Newbridge 25/08/2008 10:20:36
#9 Mashimaro,Red China - If you smell a rat, Zippy, perhaps you are dining out (sure the smell isn't sweet and sour dog?).
Not all Israeli equipment is good enough and it would be perferable if Georgia used equipment compatable with the rest of NATO. Having said that, the Israeli Merkava MK4 would make short work of the T-80s and T-84 the Russians still seem to be using but better that the Georgians be equipped with something like the Leopard 1A5 (which some NATO countries such as Germany and Belgium have a suplus of) of Leopard 2. Once the Georgian Army (as well as the Air Force and Navy) are equipped and trained to a decent standard, they will be a more effective force in resisting Russian agression making NATO membership much more likely.
11

James Donald,

Newbridge 25/08/2008 10:50:59
#10 James Donald,Newbridge - "make short work of the T-80s and T-84", should read "make short work of the T-80s and T-90s". The T-84 being the Ukrainian upgrade of the Soviet-era T-80.
12

,

25/08/2008 10:51:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
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13

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 25/08/2008 10:53:33
It's not the visible threat we need worry about but the Silent creeping hidden threats under the sea and above radar in the sky. Guaranteed the Us has sent a majority of their nukes ,stealth planes and a vast array of top secret unknown weaponry to the area. The US are years ahead of russia in their weapons capability, nukes are old hat, the yanks have country destroying death rays which they can fire off from anywhere on or off the planet...
14

,

25/08/2008 11:12:38
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15

James Donald,

Newbridge 25/08/2008 11:44:28
#12 Postmark-55,Red China - Now, now, remember what I told you about the terms and conditions of the site (Postmark-56 is not available as an ID). Western Armies are trained in recognising the equipment of Allies and Enemies alike, but it is tricky when it comes to the equipment of the PLA as they seem to copy everyone else. They have, however, made an inovative use of the Mk 1 nappy during the Olympics and will perhaps extend this use.
"Do you really think that I care about your screwed up version of the truth?" - Frankly, I don't really give a stuff what you think anymore than I do for all the other weirdos who post here.

16

,

25/08/2008 11:44:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
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17

Dragonhead,

Dalian,China 25/08/2008 11:51:42
A missile destroyer delivering aid is a little more mundane than all you pseudo-tactitions panicking over missiles etc. A destroyer parked up is one of the easiest targets on the planet. The reason naval vessels are usually despatched, is they are equipped usually with medical facilities and disaster equipment. They are also a damned sight quicker than your average civilian counterpart.(ask the catalogue above, he will give you the details from his Jane's Fighting Ships.They are also usually not too far away from trouble spots either.That they are armed to take care of most problems is a bonus.
18

James Donald,

Newbridge 25/08/2008 11:56:01
#14 Mashimaro,Red China - Zippy the dead dog diner, equipment recognition is all part of military training in the West (I thought Dragonhead would have told you this since he claims to be ex-military. Maybe he was a NAAFI manager, which would account for the large chip on his shoulder) at least during the Cold War, this being more sophisticated that "shoot anything from the East".
Small countries who are being bullied by large neighbours are not always fussy who they get their arms from so long as they get them. I would prefer that they did not get them from Israel but rather from NATO sources in the form of military aid but I do not have any say in the matter. A pity that the Georgians have to waste their money protecting their country in this way but the Russians only understand superior firepower as a deterant to their neo-imperialist ambitions.
19

,

25/08/2008 12:03:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
20

James Donald,

Newbridge 25/08/2008 12:29:29
#19 Dragonhead,Dalian,Red China - Nasty is a permanent "mode" for you old boy, sure you wern't a NAAFI manager?
You seem to be not a little confused since I have shown no support for independence for Abkhasia and South Ossetia or rather their de facto incorporation into Russia. These regions have been partially "cleansed" of Georgians already and Russia's actions are all aimed at destabilising the current Georgian regime with the eventual aim of reducing Georgia to a vassal state in Russia's "sphere of influence".
Since you have seen fit to leave our "screwed up society" then, by your own logic, you should keep your sanctimonious nose out of our business. I will make comments on Communist China as I see fit and don't need your permission. Verstanden?

21

Neil,

Glasgow 25/08/2008 12:31:08
The idea that NATO can supply enough armaments to Georgia to let it win a fight with Russia is obvious nonsense. Nonetheless such nonsense makes it necessary for Russia to keep peacekeeprs in a defencive zone of Georgian territory. All NATO "help" is going to do is preGeorgia signing a peace treaty getting back control of the Russian safe zone & stop the conflict being ended. I suppose this is the intent.
22

James Donald,

Newbridge 25/08/2008 12:53:06
#21 Neil,Glasgow - "The idea that NATO can supply enough armaments to Georgia to let it win a fight with Russia is obvious nonsense" - Since you are the resident expert on "obvious nonsense" then you should know, but then nobody has suggested that the Georgians, no matter how well equipped and trained, could win a fight with Russia alone any more than NATO countries such as Estonia or Latvia could. However, a well equipped and well trained Georgian military would make Russian interferance a less attractive proposition if losses were likely to be high. If Georgia is then granted NATO membership, then the stakes have been raised again as Russia would have to take on the whole of NATO and Putin will not risk that any more than he will risk attacking Poland over US missiles there. Moscow's goal is to destabilise neighbouring states and install pro-Moscow regimes, the Ukraine being the next likely target.
23

,

25/08/2008 13:26:09
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24

James Donald,

Newbridge 25/08/2008 13:52:24
#23 Postmark-55,Red China - You get yourself banned because you cannot refrain from personal insults of this type and cannot keep your rancid personality in check. Childish name-calling like this merely serves to show that your personality did not develop subsequent to the age of 10.
Communism is a tying creed which has been discredited all over the globe and is only adhered to by the warped and the deluded.
Before you soil yourself any further, better put on your PLA standard issue nappy.
25

,

25/08/2008 14:32:42
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26

James Donald,

Newbridge 25/08/2008 15:05:19
#25 Postmark-55,Red China - I can only put it down to age-related memory loss that you cannot remember what you posted at #23. Either that or too much cheap Saki (the Chinese stuff is probably bad for your eyesight).
27

Gere,

Scotland 25/08/2008 15:08:48
Just in case anyone has problems remembering that Georgia attacked Ossetia I would like to draw your attention to how this started. I am sure that the arms sales by Israel together with the presence of many Israeli "military advisors" made Georgia over confident enough to try their luck by launching an attack.

The attack was repulsed now the Georgians are crying!!! The West did not respect Serbia's territorial integrity when it allowed Kosovo break away from Serbia after it carried out a lengthy terrorist campgain against Serbian policemen and civilians.

America now believes that it can dictate to Russia as to what provocations Russia must accept. Russia is effectively surrounded by potential enemy states bound together militarily by NATO. America believes that Russia should believe that the missiles are a purley defensive measure against Iran. Yet, on a daily basis America informs the world how sub-standard, crude, inefficient and unreliable the Iranian missiles are.

Russia has emerged from the curse of the Jewish theology of communism and has an developed an awakening nationalist spirit that will grow stronger with time. Russia has had a long history of fighting against what seems to be insurmountable odds, America should take cognizance of this before attempting to intimidate Russia with gunboat dipomacy. A resurgent Russia might give them an unpleasant surprise!
28

Postmark-55,

China, 25/08/2008 15:37:36
Upon further studying the article a little more, who's to say that the "aid" is indeed food and beds and not military aid?

I can't seem to locate anything within this story that some neutral party has actually witnessed what the US is claiming.

Yup, sounding more and more like a Trojan Horse.
29

mike - across the pond,

ah dragon head 25/08/2008 15:40:32
nice to see a little more "rational" post from the "china" side of things...

its really kind of interesting how Russia finds it ok to invade georgia to protect "breakaways"... but they will oppress their own "breakaway" in chechniya...

at some point the "calmer heads" need to decide how we the world want to deal with these ethnic areas... IMHO, China buys themselves a whole boatload of credability if not an outright leadership role there if they set the example with Tibet... and Bhutan...

I mean really WHAT is the big "loss" with Tibet? or the "inaccessable" areas adjacent to Bhutan?
30

James Donald,

Newbridge 25/08/2008 15:43:01
#28 Postmark-55,Red China - Clamp it, you repellent follower of the "Jewish theology of communism" (see post #27). Oy vey, Litvak !
31

mike - across the pond,

postmark 25/08/2008 15:47:01
do you know what the legendary "the trojan horse" was?

or are you just spouting your normal line of BS?

I certainly HOPE that the georgians dont think they can carry a destroyer to Tblisi...

and if you think we (the US) should send a merchant or hospital ship to dock in a Georgian port, after all the russian sabre rattling... hmmm well I think you've imbibed FAR too much of the kool-aid...
32

mike - across the pond,

gere.... 25/08/2008 15:58:15
breate....

1) South Ossetia is within the borders of GEORGIA... LOOK at a map...
2) Russia has been "stirring the pot" in South Ossetia for a while now... going so far as to issue RUSSIAN passports/visas to residents of this region...

Russia buys themselves a WHOLE lot of credibility if they were to abdicate their authority over NORTH Ossetia to create "Ossetia"... but I'd bet THIS is the first and ONLY place you've ever heard that... short of that, it sure looks to ME like a Russian land grab in Georgia...

which then begs the question... why SHOULDNT georgia exert authority over its sovereign lands...

that said... it sure looks a WHOLE lot like pre 1990 Ireland doesnt it?
33

Postmark-55,

China, 25/08/2008 16:09:56
#31 mike - across the pond,
Darn tooting Mike, thus the statement.
Classic case of supposedly sending in help in the name of "aid", oops, we forgot to mention to you that it is military aid, oh well, they swallowed it hook, line AND sinker.
Well Mike, better to err on the side of caution, wouldn't you agree, it ain't the first time you guys tried to pull a fast one.
34

Postmark-55,

China, 25/08/2008 16:26:56
Damn it Mike, did I lose you on that? I ain't a teacher, but hey I will give it a go just for you.
It's not the Horse that is the problem Mike, but rather the Contents, get it?
THEY DON'T NEED TO PACK THE DESTROYER TO TBLISI, JUST THE CONTENTS MIKE, JUST THE CONTENTS.

Did you happen to get a glance at what 55 tons of 'aid' the crane was unloading? I know I didn't.
35

Postmark-55,

China, 25/08/2008 16:29:55
One more thing Mike, TIBET IS OURS, AND WE'RE KEEPING IT.
36

Postmark-55,

China, 25/08/2008 16:40:43
Oh and Mike, while you're at it, you want to give Alaska to Canada, I mean, really, what is the big loss with Alaska? It's kind of a better and natural fit with Canada wouldn't you say Mike?
And while you're at it, Give the Hawaiian Islands to Japan, God knows, there are far more Japanese there than Americans.
And do you really need the lower 48 Mike, after all
you're such a power house, DC should be more than enough for your bunch.
Canada and Mexico will split the lower 48 between them, and all you have to worry about then is the White House and the Pentagon.
That way it is also easier for the rest of the world to keep an eye on you, all cooped up there within the confines of DC.
37

Arky,

Arkansas 25/08/2008 18:07:15
Hello Mr. Postmark 55, and Mr. Donald. Intersesting arguements for sure. If the russians or chinese started to help counties in the USA'a area of influence, I believe we,the USA would take offense at the action. The US must act with caution.We are friends of Georgia, and we have a right to send them aid. It is common knowledge that the US Navy is the closest and fastest to any crisis with aid, military and otherwise. Funny hearing the comments from China. Like they have never heard of Zimbabwe or Sudan. What are Chinas statigic interests in Africa? Tibet was Tibet until China decided they wanted it. Old History it is Chinas now.
38

Mashimaro,

China oh Mikey - across the pond 25/08/2008 18:11:14
#29 "I mean really WHAT is the big "loss" with Tibet? or the "inaccessable" areas adjacent to Bhutan?"

Do you really want to know?
39

Mashimaro,

China 25/08/2008 18:21:25
#37 Tibet was not Tibet until "China" decided it wanted it. Tibet was Tibet until Mongolia decided they wanted it.
40

mike - across the pond,

mashi.... 25/08/2008 20:09:34
I say tibet...

you start muttering about mogolia...

sorry, not really looking for you to be condescending... just answer the questions...

WHAT do we do with these ethnic areas?

do they have the right to be autonomous?

and china DOES have the ability to set the example... dont they?
41

James Donald,

Newbridge 25/08/2008 20:23:43
From the BBC:

"S OSSETIA 'EMPTIED OF GEORGIANS'
Russia is attempting to empty Georgia's breakaway province of South Ossetia of its ethnic Georgian population, the head of Europe's security body says.
Alexander Stubb, of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE), said he had witnessed elderly people being transported in lorries.
Last week, it was reported that Russian troops were evacuating Georgians whose homes had been destroyed.
Witnesses said many left willingly as they had little left in South Ossetia.
Mr Stubb, who was in the Georgian town of Gori last week, said OSCE observers were now in South Ossetia trying to clarify the situation.
"Russian emergency troops brought in two lorries full of elderly people," he told the BBC.
"[They were] elderly Georgians from southern Ossetia who had been torn away from their homes - basically sitting there on the street with all their belongings.
"[Russian troops] are clearly trying to empty southern Ossetia of Georgians, which I don't think goes by any of the books that we deal with in international relations."
Before the current crisis, about 30% of the breakaway region's population was ethnic Georgian.
Meanwhile, a Red Cross spokesman in the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali said the authorities there were holding 89 Georgian civilians who were taken into custody to save them from being lynched after the initial Georgian attack on the town earlier this month.
He said the Moscow-backed authorities wanted to swap them for South Ossetians captured by Georgian troops".
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7581282.stm

Ethnic cleansing Russian style.


42

James Donald,

Newbridge 25/08/2008 20:41:42
From the Daily Telegraph:
RUSSIA MOCKS WEST'S DISPLEASURE OVER WAR IN GEORGIA -
The Kremlin has poured scorn on Western attempts to punish Russia for its invasion of Georgia, saying it was more than happy to be estranged from the international community.
Dmitry Medvedev, the Russian president, said he was not bothered if more than a decade of post Cold War rapprochement with Nato was halted altogether. "We are ready to accept any decisions up to halting relations altogether," he said. The president also issued a chilly warning to Moldova of a military response if it followed the Georgian example of trying to regain control of its own breakaway region of Transdniester, whose rebel leadership has long been backed by Russia.
The hard line approach was adopted by Vladimir Putin, the prime minister, who said he saw no merit in joining the World Trade Organization even though Russia has had an outstanding membership application since 1995. "We don't feel or see any advantages from membership, if they exist at all," he said.
While he did not formally abandon accession negotiations, Mr Putin announced that Russia was pulling out of commitments it had earlier signed that were seen as pre-requisites for membership".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2620637/Russia-mocks-Wests-displeasure-over-war-in-Georgia.html

The "hardline" can work both ways, especially when Russia ceases to have all the "trumph cards". Some NATO countries in the East have significant ethnic Russian minorities and they will look upon recent events with dismay. As things stand, Estonia for example does not extend Estonian citizenship (and the right to vote) to ethnic Rusians unless they pass a citizenship test which few do (the test involves learning Estonian). Life could become uncomfortable for them and Russians living in the isolated enclave of Kaliningrad if the situation slides into further confrontation.

43

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 25/08/2008 20:49:38
Fascinating that the Chinese (?) poster is worried about the AmerUSAns delivering humanitarian aid to Georgia by warship. I wonder if Postmark-55 and Mashimaro were just as concerned by the Chinese Government delivering weapons to Robert Mugabe in a civilian ship? I know which concerns me more.
44

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 25/08/2008 20:58:21
The AmerUSAns are sending a very clear message to Russia by delivering foreign aid using warships, and for once I thoroughly approve. By stationing "peacekeeping" troops deep inside Georgia Vladimir Putin is intimidating Georgians, so tit for tat. I should be amazed at the fact that Putin must be clinically mentally retarded to have made such dreadful foreign policy blunders that will send the ex-Soviet states into the welcoming embrace of NATO. But I am not. The history of the world shows that mankind elects idiots to high office.
45

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 25/08/2008 21:46:43
Why do so many numbskulls (Vladimir Putin among them) reach high office? It is due to the "First World War General" effect. Highly intelligent people are fascinated by complex subjects that few people can understand or find interesting. So they become academic hermits or drop-outs, switched off by a world obsessed with trash TV, hyperviolent computer games, and people kicking and throwing balls around fields. True intellectuals have no charisma and zero interest in leading the primate pack. In their absence control is seized by "moderately bright" people who rate themselves highly and do not realise just how stupid they really are to the highly intelligent. The "moderately bright" are our lethal leaders. They love management and are e.g. utterly incapable of understanding the vapidity & crassness of e.g. MBA economics. Almost all political leaders in history have belonged to this class. That is why we suffer so many wars. The truly intelligent hate both politics and the sheep who support second raters such as George Bush and Vladimir Putin. Jacques Brèl (a genius) said it perfectly: "Désolé bergère, je n’aime pas les moutons". Sadly, the lowest common human denominator always wins. (And here Brèl would end with stuttering machine guns.)
46

James Donald,

Newbridge 25/08/2008 22:02:42
#43 Caora Dubh,Croit sheasgair - "I wonder if Postmark-55 and Mashimaro were just as concerned by the Chinese Government delivering weapons to Robert Mugabe in a civilian ship?" - This thread may go some way to answering your question (note that the Communist troll Postmark-55 was then known as postmark54 - different name, same vitriol):
http://news.scotsman.com/zimbabwe/Chinese-ship-flees-with-arms.4001452.jp
47

Finnking,

Lempäälä 25/08/2008 22:13:16
Other, more rational, nation states have already sent in aid without using military transport.

Given that the people who were effected more were the south Ossetians, it is they who need the aid more. In moving "humanitarian aid" by military transport and not by the usual (read: normal) systems of the UN, IRC, MSF etc, the US is in effect denying the south Ossetians aid. It's not possible for this shipment to enter south Ossetia, physically and politically.

IE the US government had a choice here: send the aid via the agencies that are a) trained in such events b) already have transport links in place and c) are apolitical and have access or, alternatively, send the aid via military transport. They chose the latter.

So, in effect, the US regards the plight of the Georgians more needy than the south Ossetians. The US government has denied the SO:ians humanitarian aid from the US tax payer. Not only that, they have transported the aid in the least cost effective manner possible.

That is NOT "humanitarian", it's political.

It's not charity, it cynical exploitation of peoples' suffering to gain some superficial brownie points in the US media (and Scottish, it seems).

"Désolé mon frere, j'aime les moutons".(quote by US wealth's 'Department of What We Want les Moutons To Think').

48

Finnking,

Lempäälä 25/08/2008 22:22:18
Caora Dubh

I agree with you regarding the Chinese shipment of guns. However, are you aware of the US supply to Tyrant Mugabe during his worse brutality:

"About $3 million in authorized commercial deals, including sales of firearms and helicopter and aircraft spare parts, are now frozen"

http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2002_05/usarmsmay02



49

James Donald,

Newbridge 25/08/2008 22:26:40
#47 Finnking,Lempäälä - "It's not charity, it cynical exploitation of peoples' suffering to gain some superficial brownie points in the US media (and Scottish, it seems)" - The Russians do not hold a monopoly on cynicism. Most of these South Ossetians have accepted the cynical Russian ploy of offering them Russian passports; they are now Russian citizens and Russia can attend to their needs.
50

Finnking,

Lempäälä 25/08/2008 22:32:25
James Donald,


41 "From the BBC:....."

42 "From the Daily Telegraph:...."

Nuff said! Those bastions of balance and truthfulness, the hallowed halls of holistic news, yup, these media outlets of Washington propaganda, they really are worth reading if you want 100% accurate and complete news!
51

Finnking,

Lempäälä 25/08/2008 22:34:04
JD

"The Russians do not hold a monopoly on cynicism. "

---Glad you agree. I dislike all unaccountable power.

Now, what nation state attacked first?
52

Finnking,

Lempäälä 25/08/2008 22:43:54

Caora Dubh

Sorry, I just read your comment agian and think it's worth repeating:

"Why do so many numbskulls (Vladimir Putin among them) reach high office? It is due to the "First World War General" effect. Highly intelligent people are fascinated by complex subjects that few people can understand or find interesting. So they become academic hermits or drop-outs, switched off by a world obsessed with trash TV, hyperviolent computer games, and people kicking and throwing balls around fields. True intellectuals have no charisma and zero interest in leading the primate pack. In their absence control is seized by "moderately bright" people who rate themselves highly and do not realise just how stupid they really are to the highly intelligent. The "moderately bright" are our lethal leaders. They love management and are e.g. utterly incapable of understanding the vapidity & crassness of e.g. MBA economics. Almost all political leaders in history have belonged to this class. That is why we suffer so many wars. The truly intelligent hate both politics and the sheep who support second raters such as George Bush and Vladimir Putin. Jacques Brèl (a genius) said it perfectly: "Désolé bergère, je n’aime pas les moutons". Sadly, the lowest common human denominator always wins. (And here Brèl would end with stuttering machine guns.)"

---Bravo, sincerely.

What's your view on the principle of "wealth"?
53

James Donald,

Newbridge 25/08/2008 22:46:25
#50 Finnking,Lempäälä - You would prefer that I read Pravda or Izvestia perhaps?
#51 Finnking,Lempäälä - "Now, what nation state attacked first?" - Russia, S. Ossetia is still Georgian territory at least for the time being.
54

Finnking,

Lempäälä 25/08/2008 22:52:33
49 James


So, you regard all south Ossetains with the view of "you've made your bed......", aye? Not very "humanitarian", i'm sure you would agree.

These are people, JD, people just like us. "Les moutons" who want to just get on with life, caught in a situation not of their chosing. So too the Georgian people. Caught in a trap of nationalism and the exploitation of local wealth. It's the proximity of the oppressive wealth that's key here. The people that live in that area of the world all speak the same languages. How many US soldiers/sailors can converse with the local, JD?

55

Finnking,

Lempäälä 25/08/2008 23:02:36
JD

Reading material: my point is, JD, as I sit on the edge of a forest in Finland, wine glass in hand (red, plonk, but nice) that the Telegraph and the BBC (post Kelly) are hardly objective. I admit that the Telegraph is getting more sensible but you have to read their articles from the bottom up. This, I know, you will agree.

Regarding the "who struck first" argument: Well, imagine if the 'uk' government sent in attack helicopters and seriously ATTACKED Belfast in the 80s. Sorry, but I would find that totally unacceptable for a nation state to do. The fact that Russia had tried to use the UN to prevent the escalation of violence, an attempt put down by the USA, shows that Russia didn't want fighting on its doorstep. The USA, Israel and Ukraine have been selling weapons to the Georgians and were involved in "war games" on the Russian border.

Sorry, JD, but that's antagonistic. As is the sending of "aid" via military transport.

My question is why are the US conducting such affairs in this way.
56

James Donald,

Newbridge 25/08/2008 23:04:48
#54 Finnking,Lempäälä - The rogue government of S. Ossetia also encouraged it citizens to accept Russian passports and have denied ethnic Georgians the right to participate in their elections. Their "humanitarian" aim, supported by Russia is to force Georgians out and become a vassal state of Russia.
I doubt many of the Russian conscripts that poured into the region could converse with the locals other than in Russian. So what does that prove?
Bottom line is that Russia sees Georgia and other bordering states in terms of the 19th/20th century notion of "spheres of influence". "Humanitarianism" doesn't even enter into it.
57

Finnking,

Lempäälä 25/08/2008 23:20:57
JD

"....and have denied ethnic Georgians the right to participate in their elections."

I would sincerely appreciate a link to that.

"notion of "spheres of influence". "Humanitarianism" doesn't even enter into it."

I fully concur. However, I see it from both directions. It's a battle for the "spheres of influence" by oppressive forces of wealth and power,IMO, US' too.

As I say, in the choice of "power" to bow to, I chose those that can speak my mother tongue. I know what you are saying about the language but the reality is the same language is being spoken between Russians and Georgians. While I accept that Georgian, like Scots, is spoken by the locals in "Georgia", it's not spoken so much in SO, many Russians will speak it but very few US military will. You get the idea? All I am saying here is that the US forces are not locals, by a long shot. In terms of the oppression of power,in terms of some sense of rights, the Russians oppressors are less offensive than the folk form 1000's of km away.
58

James Donald,

Newbridge 25/08/2008 23:20:58
#55 Finnking,Lempäälä - I do not accept everything in the Western media at face value but some of the coverage of the conflict in the Russian media is straight from the days of the Cold War and bordering on the ridiculous.
I do not have to imagine the UK government sending in attack helicopters and seriously attacking Belfast in the 80s as such a thing would not have been possible. Different war, different circumstance and a very poor comparison. It is not illegal to sell arms to Georgia, especially when the country want to lessen it dependence on a larger neighbour and historic foe and occupier. Russia is very far from blameless here is you imply and its sabre-rattling is making the NATO countries in Eastern Europe such as Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland very nervous. They know only too well the oppression they suffered at the hands of their neighbour to the East and are not keen to be in Russia's "sphere of influence". This is especially the case in countries like Estonia with large ethnic Russian minorities which are, by and large, unassimilated and there is also the concern of the very heavily militarised enclave of Kaliningrad.
I suspect that the US warship in question is from the 6th Fleet, which would be much nearer the region than any civilian US ships. No doubt there is a "political" message being sent to the Russians also, plus it is probably a wise precaution to have a means of defence when sailing into a dangerous setting.
As to the conduct of US affairs, you should not reserve all of your criticism for the US.
59

Finnking,

Lempäälä 25/08/2008 23:37:26
"Different war, different circumstance and a very poor comparison."

I disagree. There's a direct similarity. The 'uk', historically, held NI. the locals spoke a different tongue, there was division of what 'nation state' they wanted to belong to. The parallels could not be more similar.

"It is not illegal to sell arms to Georgia, especially when the country want to lessen it dependence on a larger neighbour and historic foe and occupier."

I fully agree. The question is, "is it sensible/prudent?"

"Russia is very far from blameless here is you imply and its sabre-rattling is making the NATO countries in Eastern Europe such as Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland very nervous."

Sorry, but as a person living in Finland that travels regularly through the countries you mention, you are wrong in that. Nobody thinks the "Russians are coming" in eastern Europe, not the people anyway.

"They know only too well the oppression they suffered at the hands of their neighbour to the East and are not keen to be in Russia's "sphere of influence""

I agree. I recommend the Riga museum on such horrific oppression. But, it was the USSR, not 'Russia'. Big differnce. Is Germany still a Nazi state? 'uk' an Empire? No. Different world.

"This is especially the case in countries like Estonia with large ethnic Russian minorities which are, by and large, unassimilated and there is also the concern of the very heavily militarised enclave of Kaliningrad."

As someone who lives not so far (300km?) from Eesti (Estonia's real name here) I have to say that that's simply untrue. Eesto is an EU state and doing very well. It's inconceivable to the people of that are of the world that Russia would attack.

"As to the conduct of US affairs, you should not reserve all of your criticism for the US."

I agree, agian. However, it's the US that's the "superpower". Like the Romans in Scotland, I will always support the weakest and the most local.
60

Finnking,

Lempäälä 25/08/2008 23:41:04
Bad way of putting that last sentence, sorry! Wine working!

Hope you get the point.
61

James Donald,

Newbridge 25/08/2008 23:49:01
#57 Finnking,Lempäälä - "I would sincerely appreciate a link to that:

Council of Europe Secretary General on the vote in South Ossetia

“The results will not be recognised by the international community, the vote did nothing to bring forward the search for a peaceful political solution and the circumstances in which it has been carried out, especially the fact that ethnic Georgians were not given the right to vote, makes it irrelevant even as an indicative poll”.
https://wcd.coe.int/ViewDoc.jsp?id=1061689&BackColorInternet=F5CA75&BackColorIntranet=F5CA75&BackColorLogged=A9BACE
"many Russians will speak it but very few US military will" - Again I doubt many Russian conscripts will speak much Georgian or Ossetic. That they have a linga franca in Russian does not make them local, by a long shot. Besides, not all Ossetians support Anschluss with Russia and I doubt any ethnic Georgians relish the prospect.
62

Finnking,

Lempäälä 25/08/2008 23:54:09
JD

THanks for the link. I will look the morn,

Language:come on, JD. English is the Lingua Franca of the 'uk'. How would you feel if the Chinese were screwing around politically/militarily with Scottish politics?
63

James Donald,

Newbridge 26/08/2008 00:02:15
#59 Finnking,Lempäälä - "The parallels could not be more similar" - We must agree to disagree then. NI campaign was essentially a guerilla war waged by a tiny minority (mainly Marxist)group which also wanted to overthrow the government of Eire. Very different to the situation in the Caucases.
"The question is, "is it sensible/prudent?"" - The answer is yes (for Georgia at least). Without modern armaments, Georgia will remain weak and dependent on Russia, self governing only at their whim. Besides, most Georgian equipment was ex-Soviet and out of date, also meaning that Georgia would be reliant on Russia for spares and replacements etc....
"Sorry, but as a person living in Finland that travels regularly through the countries you mention, you are wrong in that" - I have also travelled in the countries I mentioned and have friends in the Estonian and Latvian military. They paint a different picture to you.
"I recommend the Riga museum on such horrific oppression. But, it was the USSR, not 'Russia'" - Russia is the successor state to the Soviet Union and the Russian "Fuhrer" Putin (he is still the real power) is ex KGB (leopard - spots). Russia was not "de-Sovietised" in the way that Nazi Germany was de-Nazified and it is starting to show.
64

Finnking,

Lempäälä 26/08/2008 00:03:57
JD

Had look at link. So, one Labour Blairite spoke those words. hardly an indication of truth, is it?
65

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 26/08/2008 00:12:19
The Georgians attacked first. Russia responded. Many people in South Ossetia are Russian. The Georgians chose to attack civilian & infrastructure targets and it was done by a surprise attack with no provocation. Georgia was a part of the Soviet Union and even of the Russian Federation before it broke off I think about 12 years ago. Lots of people in South Ossetia were unhappy with Georgia breaking away and wanted to break from Georgia & go back to Russia.

My guess is that Georgia's leader was paid under the table to start this fight. Just as Saddam Hussein was paid in 1980 to start a war with Iran. Because everyone knew that Georgia would lose this war.

The US regime is instigating, provoking and framing the battle lines from WW3. That is why they paid Georgia's leaders to start this fight.

Here is an article following that offers unique insight into the intentions of the regime ruling the US.

http://www.washingtonindependent.com/2849/us-interrogator-recalls-mass-detentions
66

James Donald,

Newbridge 26/08/2008 00:12:36
#63 continued.....
"It's inconceivable to the people of that are of the world that Russia would attack" - Again your experience of Eesti is not the same as mine and I have good contacts in Estonia and amongst emigre Estonians in England and Canada. It is not inconceivable to them that Russia could attack - they have already attacked Estonia using Cyber warfare in 2007.
"I agree, agian. However, it's the US that's the "superpower". Like the Romans in Scotland, I will always support the weakest and the most local" - If that was the case, you would support the Georgians against Russia. Try finding some Finnish Veterans of the Winter War and Continuation War for information on being on the receiving end of Russian/Soviet agression (Veljesapu r.y. was one such group of veterans).
67

James Donald,

Newbridge 26/08/2008 00:14:50
#64 Finnking,Lempäälä - So I post a link and you doubt its validity. I think we are back to rading Pravda again here.
68

Carolyn 1,

26/08/2008 00:19:15
I agree with JD???
For news- I search for 'original' sources, uncut,- anything else is 'editorial.

Viktor Yushchenko wrote an excellent article today which was printed in the Washington Post, from the Ukranian point of view. Excellent.

His first paragraph clearly states wisdom.
Paraphrasing: That new breakaway countries are used by Russia as bargaining chips in geopolitical games... these games come at great cost of lives, humanitarian disasters, economic ruin and collapse of international security.

No one mentions the key player- Czech Republic who will be head of the EU next year; and is remaining unusually quiet in voicing its concern of Russian imperialism.

69

Finnking,

Lempäälä 26/08/2008 00:21:20
JD

"mainly Marxist)group which also wanted to overthrow the government of Eire"

Whit? So the republican army were 'mainly' Marxist? Sorry, but I disagree on that,

"The answer is yes (for Georgia at least). Without modern armaments, Georgia will remain weak and dependent on Russia, self governing only at their whim. Besides, most Georgian equipment was ex-Soviet and out of date, also meaning that Georgia would be reliant on Russia for spares and replacements etc...."

---"weak" is comparative, aye? There's no way that Georgia would become the Israel of Europe in terms of disproportion of power in an area. No matter how much weaponary you gave then they would always be weaken that Russia.

"I have also travelled in the countries I mentioned and have friends in the Estonian and Latvian military. They paint a different picture to you."

Well, each of us cannot convince each other of that, then. Perhaps that your friends are in the miltary has some influence?

"Russia is the successor state to the Soviet Union and the Russian "Fuhrer" Putin (he is still the real power) is ex KGB (leopard - spots). Russia was not "de-Sovietised" in the way that Nazi Germany was de-Nazified and it is starting to show."

Well, if we state that power never diffuses, we should look at other "power", such as the USA. Trust me, Russia is a few kms away from me and I live in a land that has fought 52 wars with Russia and USSR: The USSR is dead. The Russians do not want NATO on theor doorstep for the same reason that the USA doesn't want Russian military on its.

No rational person is saying that Russia is not a malevolent power, JD. All power is, by its nature, malevolent. We (normal humans) enter into debates that seem to be on par with the "Pepsi Challenge" about what system of oppression we prefer. I refuse that, wanting Irn Bru instead.

You?
70

Finnking,

Lempäälä 26/08/2008 00:23:42
67 JD

Not at all. I'm just saying that the rhetoric of one Blairite is hardly proof of historical veracity. Surley you agree to that?

71

Finnking,

Lempäälä 26/08/2008 00:28:15
Wally

Hi, again!

What would the US have to gain by starting WWIII? It's not so screwed financially as it was in the 30s.

This is protection of oil routes and the sales of weapons, not Armageddon, surely.
72

James Donald,

Newbridge 26/08/2008 01:01:43
#69 Finnking,Lempäälä - "So the republican army were 'mainly' Marxist? Sorry, but I disagree on that" - The Official IRA was a Marxist organisation as was/is the INLA. PIRA's official stated aim is/was "the overthrow of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland and their replacement by a sovereign socialist all-island Irish state". Sounds pretty Marxist to me whether you agree or not.
The goal of having a well equipped and well trained Georgian armed forces would be to extend it membership of NATO not to turn it into the "Israel of Europe". Membership of NATo will give Georgia the sucurity it needs to prosper without fear of Russian agression.
"Perhaps that your friends are in the miltary has some influence?" - Junior officers, NCOs and retired officers do not have that much influence but they may well be in a better position than the bulk of the population to appreciate the threat.
"The Russians do not want NATO on theor doorstep for the same reason that the USA doesn't want Russian military on its" - Too bad, NATO is already on Russia's dooerstep as many of the countries who suffered under Communism do not trust the Russians and see NATO as a guarentee of their freedom from the Russian "sphere of influence".
"No rational person is saying that Russia is not a malevolent power" - yet you reserve all of your criticism for the USA.
Can' speakk about the situation in Finland as I only know 2 Finns but I do not feel particularly oppressed in the UK. People from countries that have been oppressed by the Russian-dominated Soviet Union and Russia might offer you a better debate in your "Pepsi challenge".


73

James Donald,

Newbridge 26/08/2008 01:03:24
#70 Finnking,Lempäälä - You wanted a link, I gave you a link. If you want multiple sources, then try looking for yourself.
74

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 26/08/2008 02:12:08
FinnKing in 71: nice to see you. there is little sanity on these boards and elsewhere.

I don't know with absolute certainty that the primary goal in Georgia's attack is to help the regime that rules to start WW3. But it is a significant possibility. here is a link promoting the idea that the pipelines in the region are the prize.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=9907

There is a significant possibility that the clique that rules us is under the influence of a private group that is following a religious vision and does want to start WW3 pursuant to that vision. There was a fellow named Albert Pike who was American and died in Italy somewhere around 1885. He wrote of a vision that he said he was given. He promoted an evil religious group that he was a part of. And he advocated that they use his vision as a map for the future.

Many things in his vision have come true. Pike claimed he was given this vision slowly over time. The bad thing is that he published his vision back in the around 1880 and too much of it has come true. He predicted WW1, communist takeover of Russia, WW2, founding of Israel. He named the warring parties in WW1 & ww2. and he didn't have much else in his vision.

He predicted WW3 would be a war between Israel and its allies against the arabs/muslims & their allies. He said after this war was over the whole world would be devestated and unhappy, discouraged, very anti-religious. and at that time his evil group would take over the world having central government and impose their religion on us to displace the others.

And my feeling is that it is pretty obvious that the US ruling regime is doing things systematically to prompt WW3 along these lines. This theory of history believes that these things WW1, WW2, founding of communist russia, zionist Israel were all orchestrated events, there is an evil clique behind the scenes purposely bringing these things about as a part of their religious vision.
75

Finnking,

Lempäälä 26/08/2008 02:18:57
JD

Sorry, but I fail to see the Marxism in "the overthrow of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland and their replacement by a sovereign socialist all-island Irish state". the same words could have been spoken by the English regarding Scotland, no?

"Membership of NATo will give Georgia the sucurity it needs to prosper without fear of Russian agression. "

Well the preamble to that regarding my previous comment are unrelated. Do you honestly think that Georgia could be a threat to Russia? Not at all.So, the "weapons prvovde security" routine simply doesn't work, which was my point, as i'm sure you know,

"Junior officers, NCOs and retired officers do not have that much influence but they may well be in a better position than the bulk of the population to appreciate the threat."

--Again, that's not my point. My point was that, like tose in any military organisation, they cannot be regarded as open minded. Hence my original statement about their opinion being infuenced by their position/occupation

NRO: "Too bad, NATO is already on Russia's dooerstep as many of the countries who suffered under Communism do not trust the Russians and see NATO as a guarentee of their freedom from the Russian "sphere of influence"."

Mmmm....Could the Cubans not say something similar of the Russians i fthey were on their doorstep? NATO is simply a way of transferring wealth. It's an instrument of power. It charges the local herd 4% of GDP (to be spent on US/'uk' weapons) for the illusion of protection. Protection from whom? Another bunch of greedy control freak oppressors? NATO is a mafia, JD. The people of eastern Europe know that; some buy in , some don't.But it's aye their local oppressors who decide.

Russian malevolence "yet you reserve all of your criticism for the USA."

No. The every fact that I wrote that line demonstrates clearly that that's not what I think. I cannot understand why you, as a rational man, would interpret my comment in that way.

"P
76

Finnking,

Lempäälä 26/08/2008 02:19:30
JD
More...........

No. The every fact that I wrote that line demonstrates clearly that that's not what I think. I cannot understand why you, as a rational man, would interpret my comment in that way.

"People from countries that have been oppressed by the Russian-dominated Soviet Union and Russia might offer you a better debate in your "Pepsi challenge"."

As would the people of Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua, Grenada, panama, Peru, Dominican republic, Mexico etc etc all of whom have been adversely effected by USA power.

JD, my concern is not with Russia or USA, per se, but with "power". You?
77

Finnking,

Lempäälä 26/08/2008 02:21:25
73 JD

You posted a link purporting to be from "the UN" that turns out to be a quote form a Blairite official alone, and you wonder why I'm not impressed as to its veracity?
78

Finnking,

Lempäälä 26/08/2008 02:28:10
Wally

You "know" my views,

"there is an evil clique behind the scenes purposely bringing these things about as a part of their religious vision." In that i agree but I call it, simply, wealth.

There's no "satan" on the chess board but there's everything else in position for all to see; including the juxtaposition of 'wealth' and 'religion'.

Thanks for the data regarding Pike. I will look more closely at this later. thanks.

Okay folks, I'm off to my pit.

Thanks for the discussion. Good to communicate!
79

Mashimaro,

China Mike Across The Pond 26/08/2008 02:31:08
#40 "WHAT do we do with these ethnic areas?"

Nothing. They're none of YOUR business. There is no "one size fits all" decision. Let's talk about the Sioux getting "independence" in the US. That's not going to be a happening thing, right?
How about the whites "uncolonising" the new world, Africa and Australia - because as you probably already know, "Tibet" has been part of "China" for longer than the whiteman has been on those continents.

"do they have the right to be autonomous?"

That is not up to YOU or US to decide. And it certainly is not up to Nato or the US to decide.


"and china DOES have the ability to set the example... dont they?"

No, not at all. China will never let Tibet go. It cannot afford to. It would be fatal to let Tibet go. It would knock both Tibet and China, along with Inner Mongolia back about 200 years - something the US would love. It would open up Tibet as a beggar nation to become yet another debt slave to the US which would bustle in there and start selling arms - much like they have done in Georgia - so that you have an unstable, poverty stricken country, sitting right in an unstable, starving Asia. For what? The Western ideal of "democracy"? You have got to be joking. How arrogant of the west. It has its new religion of democracy and it is carrying out its witch hunts and stake burnings in other countries in the world. We do not want democracy. It is a western philosophy for rich western countries. We need a different philosophy for our country.
China has lifted more people out of poverty faster than any other country in the world - ever. It is a resounding success. While it is moving people out of poverty it is doing the same for people in Tibet and other ethnic regions. It has a duty to do the same for Tibet and it has a duty to keep Tibet.
80

,

26/08/2008 02:36:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
81

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 26/08/2008 02:41:07
FinnKing, more follow-up on 74:

this fellow Albert King is difficult to dismiss if you look at the scholarly info. Those documents I spoke of with his vision in them were published around 1880. and they've proven so accurate. That is hard to dismiss. This is not like Nostradomus whose verses were so vague. Albert Pike was concise, direct and had very little in his vision. But its come true very precisely so far.

Albert Pike, born in Massachusetts which is north of New York, but in the civil war he served as a general for the southern side. That is very odd. Then he stayed in the south and founded the Ku Klux Klan. My history book in high school had a whole page on him. I thought that was odd too. After he got the KKK going by touring the south and giving many speeches to fan its popularity he just abruptly quit the KKK and went and did something completely different. He devoted himself to this evil religious group he liked. He moved to Europe. But along the way for some reason they put up a statue of him in Washington DC. That is very odd as well. The statue's still there. He was not a major figure of the civil war. There are many southern generals of much more significance. Why is he honored in Washington? We don't know.

Mikhail Gorbachev of Russia was paid as a consultant by the United Nations to develop a new religion which is intended for use worldwide.

One curious thing is that this Georgian leader gave an interview on American tv and said that the Georgians are fighting Russia for what he called the 'new world order'. at least he has an explanation because starting a war with Russia was obviously not in Georgia's interest. If you think this Georgian leader is sane, then look at this 2 minute clip and see what happens 1 minute into it.

http://www.the-peoples-forum.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=3496
82

Finnking,

Lempäälä 26/08/2008 02:53:02
Wally

Quickly (sorry but it's 5am here!)

He just looks seriously stressed to me. Not surprising when he was, I believe, told that the USA would come to the rescue should he attack SO and the Russians retaliate. Like Saddam at the start of the Kuwait adventure, he sees the truth about US support.

Will talk further later.

Tale care.

Night!
83

Finnking,

Lempäälä 26/08/2008 02:53:49
taKe care, even!
84

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 26/08/2008 04:12:49
FinnKing:

I saw that excellent essay over at the FH site you spoke of that said 'Evil In US Elections' or something similar, written by the arab fellow in Al Jazeera.

I saw your comment equating this evil clique ruling to 'wealth'. I think the evil clique that rules us is tremendously wealthy. As you know the bible says that the love of money is the root of ALL evil. This evil clique is blinded by their love of money and they use this motivation (love of money) to justify all that normal people would consider evil.

That essay from Al Jazeera you showed us (on FH) is very relevant. He was talking about that Saddleback church in California where that 'interview' occurred. All the people in the audience were members of that Saddleback church. They were not representative of most Americans, but they are representative of many including lots of christians.

The Saddleback christians who cheer on the US government in its crusade against worldwide 'evil' are engaged in something awful. The reality is that the US government is orchestrating many evil policies on behalf of this wealthy clique that are causing great suffering for the poor and others worldwide. and that the Saddleback christians are blind to this while they cheer for this grand crusade.

Here’s an essay in right-wing magazine American Free Press by conservative intellectual Paul Craig Roberts. He says Bush is pushing us to Armageddon and he has interesting views about why this (Georgia-Russia) war was started.

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/bush_pushing_armageddon_148.html

Dick Cheney is in Georgia now and Ukraine next.
85

,

26/08/2008 08:43:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
86

Gere,

Scotland 26/08/2008 14:12:44
Just to remind everyone, America and its cohorts found it unecessary to respect the territorial integrity of Serbia by recognising the independence of Kosovo! The Kosovorians had prior to Serb retaliation been offering the Serbs the provocation of conducting a protracted terrorist campgain against Serbian policemen, military installations and civilians!

Why is America squawking now because Russia has recognised Ossetia????

Remember Georgia attacked!!! The West is recruiting and or encouraging countries surrounding Russia to join a military alliance created to act militarily against Russia, namely NATO!

Russia, purely from a self-defense perspective cannot let these growing, potential hostile military threats on its borders go unchallenged!

Please see my post #27
87

Conan,

Moffat 26/08/2008 18:44:41
James Donald - various posts - James, you have won me over and caused me to change my mind on a number of issues and points of view I have held and posted. I have to concede that all-in-all you are quite correct nearly all of the time and I regret having descended to a point of seeking disagreement with you and even being provocative myself for no other reason than I did not wish to agree with you.

I find your analysis of this subject 99% correct and I do appreciate your willingness to confront the historical revisionists and no-nothings who so frequently post here.

I am now of the opinion that your heart and mind are in the right place and I wish you well.

For those of you, especially those Chinese government(mafia)-related functionaries and propogandists and wannabes who routinely post here in this SCOTTISH newspaper, the truth of this situation is obvious, namely; That like it or not Georgia's international borders are recognized by the UN and nearly all other nations and those borders have included and DO include South Ossetia and Abkhazia. The mere fact that the new-Imperial Russia has chosen to resume its own Great Game and wishes to reintegrate territories to re-establish its former )pathetic) 'glory' and has manipulated event since the 1990s in that region to that end will not do it any good in the end.

What is more likely to happen is that the 'west' will be forced to re-evaluate its entire security situation along the Russia-'west' front in all respects and no doubt this will result in a renewed re-armament to face the rather naked agression that Russia appears (as usual) to be very comfortable with.

It is a sad and unfortunate thing that there is streak of the 'Russian' psyche that causes the populace of that potentially wonderful land to seek the easy and expedient solution in making its place in the world and that all-too-often that takes the form of the need for the 'strong-man' form of government, i.e., in the form of a Stalin ... which
88

Mashimaro,

China 26/08/2008 23:28:08
#87 "renewed re-armament to face the rather naked agression that Russia appears (as usual) to be very comfortable with."

What do you call Nato? How do you even begin to justify Nato's existence? Please, explain this to me.
How do you explain that the US, a country nowhere near Europe, has such power in the area, when by logic, Russia should be part of the EU.
Russia's naked agression is nothing more than an honest and forthright answer to the covert agression of the US and Israel. I for one prefer honest people.
89

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 27/08/2008 02:12:30
Mashimaro in 88:

I enjoy reading your comments and I frequently agree with you. But regarding NATO & America - America has every reason to be a member of NATO. We have a border on the north atlantic. We have a long history going back over 300 years of very close relationship with northern & western european nations. This includes a lot of trade and massive immigration from those areas. We have blood ties to those nations and a long historical association.

But I do wish that NATO would not be expansionist or provocative and I believe the games they're playing with Russia and Afghanistan are very bad.

I remember that the French intellectual DeTocqueville who toured America in the early 1800's said in his writings about Americans that they were very unusual in that they enjoyed combat. As I recall there's been 2 military conflicts between China & the US in the last 10 years. Once, chinese were gathering intelligence for the Serbs in that little war in 1999. And the US obliterated the section of the Chinese embassy where this was being done as well as the technicians doing it. Then, there was a little dog-fight in the air over in China. and I believe you guys lost a jet & a pilot in that one.

In 1980 there was starvation in China. The peasants were so poor they were working as mules in the field. Then it was the US that decided to turn global trade treaties to China's favor and to also participate in the currency fix where the chinese currency is valued artificially low to the US dollar. It is these decisions by the US that made China what it is today, combined with the tremendous work and value provided by the Chinese. But without the key help from the US it would not have happened. About half the exports from China worldwide are done by US-owned facilities.

America is the kind of a nation where it will take the whole world to take us down. and after they do it we will take them down.

I oppose US policies that the world hates.
90

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 27/08/2008 02:13:14
I oppose US policies that the world hates. I hate those policies worse than the ROTW (rest of the world). But I am still American.
91

,

27/08/2008 02:24:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
92

Mashimaro,

china 27/08/2008 04:43:13
Wally, I might be completely wrong on this - and I'm not going to address your little fantasy about how the US helped China - but I have an overwhelming feeling that this time the US has written a check it just cannot cash.
The balance of power has definitely been shifted in the War Games Olympics. And I really think the US didn't make it to the podium on this one either.
93

Mashimaro,

China 27/08/2008 04:48:29
Regarding Nato...
This organisation was formed to protect Europe from Soviet Russia. There is no Soviet Russia anymore.
If it were not for Nato, Russia and Europe would be getting along just fine. In fact if it were not for the US most of the world would be getting along just fine.
All through the cold war europe was promised that once Russia was "defeated" there would be a huge social payoff in that the resources that went into "defending" the "free world" from the mad bear would be able to go to civillian programs. Hah! More like continues to line the pockets of the US/Israeli arms hustlers as they continue their sleazy protection racket. Now that Taiwan might not be buying much more in the way of arms those boys must be sweating.
94

Arky,

Arkansas, USA 27/08/2008 04:59:47
The US has never really helped China unless it was in our best interests. Unfortunately, we try to be the "good guys" but I think it is only in our eyes. Americans try to have a sense of being the good side. Unfortunately, the world does not see things in Americas eyes. I imagine the russians are behaving just like we would if another country tried to intervine in American poitics among its states. I imagine if russia got into helping the state of Delaware in a political fight with Washington, We would be pissed as well. I hope that cooler heads will prevail. We don't want to fight half the world over this.I believe in America and I believe in using our military. But We need to tone it down a little
95

Mashimaro,

China 27/08/2008 05:12:48
Hi Arky. Most Americans think that the US are the good guys. I used to think that too until I realised what they were actually doing. I would be more inclined to believe "good intentions" were at the heart of your foreign policy if it were not for the overwhelming evidence that points to making money for your rich people.
Who was it that said something along the lines of "in Vietnam we've managed to get the black man to fight the yellow man".
96

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 27/08/2008 09:54:27
No Mashimaro it is true. In 1980 hundreds of millions of chinese were working the land and doing jobs themselves that in 1700 we used animals for in our country. and the people were so poor that there was starvation. That is what china achieved on its own. Then came the great opening to the outside which was led by the US in terms of treaties that facilitated it. and in 1993 the currency fix deal went into effect. This causes the chinese currency to be very artificially low to the US dollar and to all the currencies of the world as well. This is the key reason why China is the great manufacturer today for the world.

If the chinese currency floated freely, then china would have made strong progress, but not nearly the very fast progress they've made. china wouldn't be the big manufacturer for the world as it is today without the currency fix.

There are many schemes to artificially suppress many currencies to the value of the US dollar. The US engages in these schemes voluntarilly as does China, Japan, South Korea, the oil rich countries and many others. That enables America to consume far more than it produces. It pushes up the prices of property in america artificially. It enables fantastic money supply growth without so much inflation which benefits the bankers who create the money. It does not benefit the Americans though. Its a policy system that I strongly disapprove of. But it is reality.

China benefits from this scheme by gaining a valuable domestic economy. that is why they participate. If we had free-floating currencies (US & China & others), then the trade patterns wouldn't be so imbalanced.
97

Let's have the truth,

Not Scotland sorry. 27/08/2008 11:52:36
#22 James Donald

"Moscow's goal is to destabilise neighbouring states and install pro-Moscow regimes"

Russia has learned the technique during the 8 years of the Bush/Cheney regime.
98

Let's have the truth,

Not Scotland 27/08/2008 12:00:42
Bush's (Cheney's) thoughtless beligerence is going to make it more difficult to eventually settle this question. A little tact with Russia would have been far more effective.

One thing that is guaranteed to put Russian backs up it is being told what not to do by someone who is already doing it.
99

Postmark-55,

China, 27/08/2008 12:25:48
#96 Wally,
Hey Wally, I could be wrong on this one, but from what I recall, it's when China joined the WTO when things really turned around, and that was separate from US involvement. In fact, it seems to me that the US has really manipulated the WTO ever since we joined in 2001. The US is infamous for their interference with the WTO, I saw them manipulate Canada many times as well, of which I'm sure you're aware. The Americans are also well known for abusing the NAFTA agreement, but that is a different story. It also seems to me that the Americans were really p!ssed with us for not floating our currency, something that we voluntarily changed three years ago here in China. We volunteered officially to save face, but in reality were bullied into it by the US. Fact is the US is still p!ssed at us for not lettting it float more freely, but I for one am happy that we haven't caved.
The last time the US did "help" China, would have been to drive the Japanese out, but they had ulterior motives and really could have cared less about us. Don't get me wrong, your troops were here to help, but they were not aware of the politics behind it.
So Wally, with all respect to you, I do think that you are wrong on this one, but appreciate the countless links you provide us all with, you definitely do your homework.

And Wally if I'm wrong on this, sorry, I'm just going by memory on this one, I'm not one to look things up very often.
100

James Donald,

Newbridge 27/08/2008 16:51:17
#97 Let's have the truth,Not sorry Scotland - Moscow has nothing to learn about the brutality of destabilisation and power politics. They have been engaged in such activity since at least 1918. Russians see tact and subtlety as weakness - they only understand brute force.
101

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 28/08/2008 00:06:47
PostMark in 99:

thank you for that nice reply. let me give you some feedback.

The regime that rules the US is increasingly divergent the last several decades from the interests or the will of the Americans. They rule us, but they do not act in our interests or do as we want.

There is a clique that calls itself ‘the new world order’. The term new world order was first used by President Wilson around 1915. He established the Federal Reserve bank which is associated with this NWO group. Hitler of course used the term in his speeches as well. Around 1948 there was testimony before the US Congress where an American who said he represented the NWO said in very strong terms that the NWO would take over America and that it would be done whether we liked it or not and with whatever level of violence was required to accomplish this end. Every American president since Jimmy Carter used the term ‘new world order’ in speeches and voiced their support for it. The last 3 presidents in particular, Bush, Clinton & Bush all gave very explicit speeches saying absolutely that they supported the New World Order, and they give these speeches while they’re also talking about the advancement of trade treaties such as WTO or NAFTA.

The WTO like other NWO organizations are corporations founded by a private group. Then governments give these organizations the sovereign powers that should be in the hands of the governments. In this way power is transferred out of the hands of the various governments and to private corporations controlled by a mercantile clique. You should assume that the EU, NAU, CODEX, NAFTA, CAFTA even the UN and other organizations are in reality NWO organizations.

I’d say that the same regime (NWO) that rules the US also controls these other organizations. This NWO group is multi-national in character with ownership being in the US, Europe and probably Japan. But leadership in many other countries are in with this New World Order as well
102

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 28/08/2008 00:07:53
But leadership in many other countries are in with this New World Order as well, to a certain extent at least even China’s leadership. The president of Georgia recently said on American tv that he started that war against Russia in service to the New World Order.

So, I’d still think that there was a great opening of China to the outside world and the same people who rule the US orchestrated that.

The regime that rules the US engineered the great currency fix which began in 1993. The Americans don’t like it, they never did, but the regime that rules America did it. On an official level the currency fix was done away with in 2005 as you say. But now the Chinese currency (yuan/renmbai?) is pretty much fixed to a basket of 8 currencies that in turn some of which are suppressed artificially to the dollar. Many currencies are suppressed artificially to the dollar. The leaders of many nations are told that they’re not allowed favorable trade terms unless they do that. Japan, S. Korea, China and many other successful exporters recirculate their excess dollars earned in trade back to the US in the form of investment or lending to US-based companies and people. This inherently props up the dollar and suppresses those currencies to the dollar. There are several major ‘strong-dollar’ schemes. The currency peg with China was only one of them.

There’s a Chinese author I think named Liu who writes on this. An American author named Catherine Austin Fitts is well versed in it as well. She worked for the government and witnessed first-hand the strong-dollar schemes they make. And then Ellen Brown is another American author who will write about it. I’ve read other authors write about it on finance-oriented web sites.

What the ‘strong-dollar’ systems mean to us Americans is that it destroys our domestic economy and inflates the value artificially of all land, houses, stocks and companies in America. No domestic producer that must compete with foreign
103

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 28/08/2008 00:09:07
. No domestic producer that must compete with foreign producers can thrive here in America because of the strong-dollar systems. Our currency over a long period of time is systematically over-valued making all the products & services we produce be more expensive than they otherwise would be on world markets including in our own market. The strong-dollar systems started really working in the early 1970’s. At that time the domestic US economy was at its peak in terms of the economy’s ability to facilitate ordinary people making a good living by simply selling their labor in the economy. For the poor & middle class the peak on inflation-adjusted wages occurred in 1971 according to government statistics.

With these ugly realities for us the only way our economy can keep functioning is with massive amounts of borrowed money from abroad. Our debt level just goes up up up. This is an inherent side-effect of the strong-dollar systems.

President Bush has an uncle named Prescott Bush. Prescott lived in China for almost 15 years. He was president of the US-China Chamber of Commerce. That is a private organization that represents the big US corps that invest in China. It is overwhelmingly likely that Prescott engineered corrupt schemes with the leaders of China arranging for these corps to make lots of money and even likely that the Bush family would make lots of money under-the-table. Because policies were set to favor China’s production including the currency suppression policies. I read just 2-3 years ago that 50% of all the manufacturing exports from china are done by US-owned manufacturers. These corps make massive amounts of money, facilitated by a Washington policy (strong-dollar) that sand-bags their US-operations and favors their China-operations.

The world’s economy including the US economy has become addicted to these systems that have been built. It would not be easy to get the dollar re-valued as it should be. We know beyond the shadow
104

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 28/08/2008 00:10:06
The world’s economy including the US economy has become addicted to these systems that have been built. It would not be easy to get the dollar re-valued as it should be. We know beyond the shadow of any doubt the US dollar is strongly over-valued because of the massive trade deficit that America has. A trade imbalance means that some currency’s values need to be adjusted to eliminate the trade imbalances.

In the last few years we’ve had a pretty good adjustment of the dollar to the euro. But not to the japanese yen and not to the Chinese yuan. There’s been virtually no adjustment to the yen and only a very small adjustment to the yuan.

There are many evil side-effects of these schemes. The great positive on these schemes is that it maximizes the portfolio values of the clique that rules us including the Federal Reserve bank that creates new US dollars. The Federal Reserve which is the most profitable corporation in the world by far does not measure money supply growth any more (since 2006) because they say it is too expensive and they can’t afford to do so, even though their reason for existence is to manage the money supply growth according to the law that empowered them. However, estimates are that the supply of US dollars is growing by 25% of US GDP. Such fantastic money supply growth would normally cause large inflation and a large decline in the dollar’s value, especially in light of the large persistent trade defict of the US. These things are not happening because of the strong-dollar schemes. The negatives of the strong-dollar schemes are that it puts downward pressure on wages globally for workers. It facilitates huge trade imbalances where America consumes far more than it produces and huge money-flows come into America for no apparent reason other than to fund consumption. That is a huge mis-allocation of funds that should be invested globally. America is the designated consumer, China (& others) are the designated producers. It
105

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 28/08/2008 00:11:13
. America is the designated consumer, China (& others) are the designated producers. It is not free-market at all unless the currencies float freely without these schemes. It is not free trade either. It is managed, contrived trade.

So, the US ruling regime is with the Chinese regime and wants the Chinese currency to be under-valued to the dollar. The interests of the Americans are that the US dollar float and be re-adjusted. The strong-dollar schemes were temporarily disbanded from 1981 to 1984, the US dollar fell by 40% to world currencies during that time. It resulted in a massive economic boom in America with the highest growth in gdp in US history occurring in 1984. We can’t thrive with an over-valued currency as everything we produce is over-priced. We are herded into a war economy as that is our opportunity.

None of our political leaders are loyal to us. They’re all loyal to the NWO. If our leaders don’t go along with the NWO agenda, then the mass media (owned by 6 corporations) will provide information causing the Americans to dislike those politicians, such politicians are forced to be irrelevant. The Americans are clueless, confused and angry.

106

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 28/08/2008 00:17:55
You might wonder how it is that the strong-dollar schemes were temporarilly disabled from 1981-1984. The Japenese and the oil rich nations were told not to recirculate their excess dollars back to America. This caused the dollar to fall dramatically. The strong-dollar schemes work through mutual cooperation. China cooperates, Japan cooperates, S. Korea cooperates, Saudi Arabia cooperates, etc etc etc. Saddam Hussein did not cooperate, in summer of 2001 he stopped selling oil exclusively in terms of US dollar. That does not prop up dollar, he was bad guy. Iran today is not cooperating, they sell oil in currency other than dollar. People who do not cooperate may have CIA overthrow them, may have war against them, who knows what forces will be brought against them as many are available.

107

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 28/08/2008 00:51:58
The Location field I select for myself is 'by the rivers of babylon'. here is the bible verse I take that from.

"Psalm 137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion."

The term zion in this verse does not refer to the modern-day state of Israel or to the zionist political movement. It refers to a nation given great blessings by the creator that has brought forth fruits of god here on earth for all the world's people.

Many books in the bible refer to later-day prophecies that involve this 'babylon'. In bible prophecy this Babylon is an empire that rules over the world and has the leaders of all the nations corrupted and under its schemes. It has the people of the world on drugs or put under spells or corrupted by evil. and it imports massively due to its costliness (Revelation 18:19).

There was of course an ancient empire named Babylon and headquartered in modern-day Iraq. The US military built a big base on top of the ancient site where Babylon was headquartered. They built it right on top of archeological ruins.

Babylon of the later-days bears a strong resemblance to this New World Order. There are many detailed verses that show an enormous parallel. In prophecy there will be 10 kingdoms that will be under this babylon and yet grow to hate it so much that they rebel together at once and destroy babylon. Very suddenly Babylon will be destroyed utterly and completely so that the whole world will be shocked and amazed. But during this violence god will protect some in the midst of it, jesus will return, he will raise up from the land of this babylon many dead people into life and use these people for his purposes.

When this great violence occurs the systems supporting life world-wide will fall apart. It will be the worst time for the people of the earth in all of history. And jesus will orchestrate the judgement of each individual person world-wide including both those alive at the time and
108

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 28/08/2008 00:52:42
When this great violence occurs the systems supporting life world-wide will fall apart. It will be the worst time for the people of the earth in all of history. And jesus will orchestrate the judgement of each individual person world-wide including both those alive at the time and those dead who will be raised up into life. Based on this judgement the people will be separated from one another. Jesus will build a kingdom of heaven here on earth. Those judged positively will be admitted into this kingdom. those judged negatively will not.

Judgement will be based on whether we take the actions that our hearts tell us to take during our lives. These actions will be different for every individual on earth. only god will be able to decide our judgement, though people will be appointed to administer this process. No ethnic group or religious affiliation will be favored simply because of an affiliation with it.

"Psalm 137:8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy [shall he be], that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.

Psalm 137:9 Happy [shall he be], that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."


109

Postmark-55,

China, 28/08/2008 04:55:28
Thank you Wally,
That's what I mean, you do your homework, where I rely on memeory and past experiences, whether they be good or bad.
Where I do disagree with you though Wally is the biblical part of you, again, nothing against you personally, but I have seen too many churches abuse and manipulate too many people using the Bible, using it as a tool to guilt them out of money.
Religion plays a negative part in our society, closely related, if indeed not the same, as politics.
Both groups are there to control us, and the bottom line for both groups would be money, and the more of it the better.
I go by what feels right in my heart and listen to my conscience, a conscience we all have but many choose to ignore, but I can't and won't ignore it, it guides me through life, and no form of Bible or Koran or whatever other religious book can do that, for they are written with the mindset of controlling people, whereas my conscience gives me self control.
110

Let's have the truth,

Queensland 28/08/2008 14:33:56
Postmark-55

I believe your common sense would go down well pulling some individuals into line on this talkback site:

http://politicstalk.guardian.co.uk/WebX?14@@.ee80025

 

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