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Fears over doctors' out-of-hours service

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Published Date: 30 August 2007
SCOTLAND'S out-of-hours health service is facing a staff crisis, as hundreds of GPs abandon evening and weekend working, a report has warned.
Audit Scotland, the public-spending watchdog, said the service was at "significant risk" of being unsustainable, particularly in rural areas, and advised health boards to come up with new ways to ensure the service could be maintained.

Since a controversial new contract allowed GPs to opt out of working out of normal hours, the number willing to do such shifts has dropped from almost 1,700 in 2004-5 to 1,440 in 2006-7.

The watchdog said at least five Scottish health boards were already struggling to fill their rotas to provide a full service. Some boards have had to bring in doctors from overseas to cover weekend shifts, at a cost of thousands of pounds.

Opposition politicians described the results as "alarming", while patients' groups demanded doctors be "more flexible" and cover the out-of-hours work.

The problems have been caused by the new GP contract introduced in 2004. It allowed family doctors to withdraw from providing out-of-hours care, forfeiting an average of £6,000 of their salary in the process. But under the new contract, which included performance-related elements, GPs' average incomes actually rose by 24.9 per cent to £82,696. However, salaries have been frozen for two years.

Audit Scotland said that, since 2004, 95 per cent of Scotland's GP practices had chosen to pass the responsibility for evening and weekend care to the health boards. Services are now provided by a mix of health professionals, such as nurses and paramedics, as well as individual GPs who have opted back in to out-of-hours shifts. For working such shifts, GPs can earn up to £80 an hour - rising to £150 at Christmas and New Year.

But the watchdog said the increase in GPs' income meant that the financial incentive to cover out-of-hours sessions was "less attractive". The number of GPs willing to work at weekends and evenings was dropping, particularly in rural areas.

Audit Scotland questioned six health boards and found Borders, Grampian, Lanarkshire, Highland and Shetland already had difficulties filling GP out-of-hours rotas. Only Greater Glasgow said it had no such problems.

It warned that if more GPs opted out of working out of hours, the future of the service could be at risk. Caroline Gardner, the deputy auditor general for Scotland, said: "Since the changes to out-of-hours services three years ago, NHS boards have worked hard to maintain the care patients have traditionally experienced, and most patients are satisfied.

"However, the way the service is currently delivered needs to change, as there is a significant risk that it is unsustainable in its current form, particularly in Scotland's rural and remote areas."

Ms Gardner said the boards and the Scottish Executive needed to look to other healthcare professionals to extend their roles to help cover out of hours.

Claire Sweeney, one of the authors of the Audit Scotland report, said: "What we have seen is that, over time, there is a reduction in GPs working out-of-hours sessions. This means that boards must look at how out-of-hours care is delivered.

"GPs are not the only ones who could be providing this care and they must look at extending the roles of other trained staff to fill the gaps and provide a joined-up service."

Margaret Watt, of the Scottish Patients Association, called for GPs to be more flexible in providing services in the evenings and at weekends.

"These doctors took an oath to look after the sick, the vulnerable and the elderly," she said. "They did not take an oath to look after patients between nine and one, and two and six. If you do not want to do these out-of-hours periods, then do not come into the profession.

"They need to be more willing to provide these services. What are we paying them for?"

The report found only 11 per cent of GPs believed patient care had improved as a result of the new arrangements for out-of-hours services.

But 88 per cent said they were relieved they no longer had 24-hour responsibility for patients, with 66 per cent saying it made a career as a GP more attractive.

Despite doctors' reservations, a separate survey of 600 patients by Audit Scotland found that 85 per cent were satisfied with the service they received during evenings and weekends.

The cost of providing out-of-hours care in Scotland was estimated at £67.93 million in 2006-7.

But only about 30 per cent of this came from the money clawed back from GPs opting out of the service, with boards having to find the extra money elsewhere in their budgets.

The Audit Scotland report found huge variations in the cost in different areas, with rural areas paying the most for cover. Costs ranged from £43.63 per registered patient in Argyll and Bute to only £7.61 in Greater Glasgow.

Audit Scotland said boards had successfully sustained out-of-hours services using contracts with the ambulance service and locum GP agencies. But it added that most of these contracts had not been reviewed to see if they were providing value for money.

The watchdog said there was also a lack of monitoring of out-of-hours services, so it was difficult to assess what impact they were having on patients.

Mary Scanlon, the Scottish Conservatives' health spokeswoman, said she was "deeply alarmed, but sadly not surprised" by the report.

"It is damning that only 11 per cent of GPs think that things have improved, and nearly one in five patients are dissatisfied with their experience of the new and potentially critical service," she said.

"There is now an impending crisis, as fewer and fewer GPs opt to provide their services to NHS 24, and the inherent danger that far less qualified medical staff will take over their responsibilities."

Dr Dean Marshall, the chairman of the British Medical Association's Scottish GPs committee, said he was aware of doctors wanting to work out of hours but not getting shifts.

He also defended the new contract, which he said was designed to combat a crisis in general practice and help with the recruitment and retention of GPs. "Before the new contract was introduced, morale was at an all-time low, GPs were planning to retire early and recruitment was becoming impossible," he said.

"Now, however, GPs have more control over their workload, and work-life balance and morale have improved. Importantly, more than two-thirds believe that a career in general practice has become attractive again."

Shona Robison, the public health minister, said it was important that the new government looked at the current operation of out-of-hours services and ensured their long-term sustainability and success.

"The health secretary has already made clear that she wants to see greater flexibility from GPs in delivering out-of-hours services and welcomes the positive attitude of the BMA in discussing this subject," she said.

"In order to maintain and improve the delivery of out-of-hours services, the Scottish government will work with boards to extend the roles of nurses, paramedics and others in delivering the service.

"It is important that, together with NHS Education, we continue to develop this skill-mix to complement the work of GPs in delivering the out-of-hours service."

'We welcome the fact that we have a choice'


AFTER many years of providing out-of-hours care for his patients, Dr John Garner welcomed the opportunity to opt out, writes Lyndsay Moss.

A GP for 28 years, he works at least ten hours every day at the busy Edinburgh practice he shares with five other full-time doctors.

He said the new contract had improved the lives of doctors across Scotland, as well as the care of patients.

"We all welcome the fact that we have a choice about working out of hours," he said.

"We talk about patient choice, but now we have a choice too. That is to either do out-of-hours [work] or to opt out. At my age, I have decided to opt out and not do it.

"People forget that our pay actually dropped quite significantly as a result, by thousands of pounds.

"But it was also obvious that we had been providing this service on the cheap. Health boards can't run out-of-hours [care] as cheaply as it was previously."

A day spent in Dr Garner's busy surgery reveals why many doctors may feel working a day shift is more than enough. He starts at 7:45am, seeing more than 20 patients in the surgery during the day as well as home visits. He ends the day with paperwork before leaving at around 6:30pm.

Dr Garner believes the new contract has created a work-life balance for doctors.

"Prior to the new contract and having to do out-of-hours as well, it was all-consuming. Now there is a life after work. We could not have sustained it as we were doing. It would have been difficult to recruit and there would have been more burn-out and dissatisfaction."

'24-hour cover is in best interests of our patients'


DONALD Cruickshank decided that opting out of providing out-of-hours cover when the new contract was introduced in 2004 was not in the best interests of his patients.

The GP said his location in the Aberdeenshire village of Braemar meant people faced a 60-mile trip to their nearest hospital and one of 30 miles to the out-of-hours health centre.

By choosing to cover out of hours for his patients, Dr Cruickshank is on call 24 hours a day for 244 days a year - the rest is covered by a part-time GP at his practice. The Braemar Health Clinic is the only practice in Grampian not to opt out of out-of-hours care.

"When deciding whether to opt out, we considered our geographical location and were just not happy with the service model which was being proposed to serve our patients," Dr Cruickshank said.

"We have many elderly patients and also a large number of tourists visiting the area. They could have difficulty travelling to the hospital or the out-of-hours centre. Many also do not have a car, which would make that difficult.

"In the end, we decided that patients could suffer unnecessary anxiety if we did not provide out-of-hours care."

Dr Cruickshank, a GP for 18 years, said they had some 600 patients but also cared for hundreds of tourists visiting the area.

He said being on call 24 hours a day for most of the year was a big responsibility. "It does limit what one can do. If you are off work, you can't go away for the day because you have to be nearby in case you get a call to a patient," he said.

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 29 August 2007 11:58 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: General practitioners
 
1

Jalepeno,

30/08/2007 00:54:25

My good god!! Giving all this tax payers money to Doctors!

I say cut back on paying Doctors these extortionate rates otherwise we will encourage a new generation to take their places, and there where will we be with an overprovision of healthcare? No doubt healthy, but at what cost? Consultants fees and city slickers, that's who's losing out in all this.

Spend a good £40 million paying one of the big five accountancy firms to audit the NHS, that's money well spent!

I'd rather have 2 well paid doctors in 3 and a well paid consultant than have 3/3 well paid doctors.

Honestly, money going into the pockets of Doctors, scandal. Free at the point of need, outrageuos!

It's not 1979 you know, well paid Doctors for Directors and damned the rest.

2

Boy Wonder,

30/08/2007 04:10:40

Who the heck chose that creepy picture??? That'll scare ya outta using doctors out of hours!!!! :-O

3

AlastairEwen,

30/08/2007 04:15:41

So Margaret Watt thinks that "These doctors ...... need to be more willing to provide these services. What are we paying them for?"

The answer is obvious - the Government is paying GP's for providing agreed levels of care between normal working hours. Those doctors who eschewed out of hours care were paid £6000 less per annum.

The Government negotiated the deal and the GP's (who were providing out of hours care on the cheap to an increasingly ungrateful public) signed on with unrestrained glee. What a deal! Get your life back at a cost of only £6000!

Out of hours care is no longer the responsibility of those GP's who opted out. Tell Margaret Watt to complain to the mandarins who undervalued physicians and are now reaping what they so contemptuously sowed.

4

Anne,

30/08/2007 05:28:36

And why should they?
Can you hear the outcry from the STUC if government spin doctors were attempting to stir up discontent about the pay and working hours of, say, train drivers? Suggesting that they should revert to the hours worked in the 1920s?
This outrageous series of attacks on doctors' pay and conditions has its origins in Downing Street under the last incumbent!

5

spiderman,

Argyll 30/08/2007 06:40:32

Overpaid, overrespected and underworked - the GPs should never have been awarded that contract.

6

Kate,

Switzerland 30/08/2007 06:46:25

Doctors get to opt out of doing their duty, forfeiting £6,000 per year in the process, but their salaries still go up in real terms by over 24%! What about the nurses who carry the brunt of the work?

Also, it is not possible for people to become ill "out of normal working hours"...

This situation is WRONG and the doctors should be doing what they are trained and paid to do!

7

Kate,

Switzerland 30/08/2007 06:47:09

Sorry, meant to write that it's not always possible for people to ensure they become ill only during "normal working hours".

8

Jalepeno,

30/08/2007 06:52:53

#7 #8 Kate, you're struggling with this one aren't you?

If you are ill outside of working hours there is still the hospital. That is unaffected.

How many illnesses can you name that are inbetween hospital and GP and are urgent enough not to wait 12 hours?

9

lachlan,

30/08/2007 07:08:13

#9 maybe that would be the illness kills you.and it would be nice to have a doctor around to see if something could to be done to prevent that.have you spent time waiting ar Aand E recently.

10

Nell,

Far from the Struan 30/08/2007 07:13:42

No. 2:- Fair comment. Do cutbacks mean they're not allowed to have the lights on?

11

Jalepeno,

30/08/2007 07:24:26

#10 You don't "wait" at A&E if you are dying, have a head injury, a chest complaint.

You probably wear a suit and are a big girl's blouse. A man cold cannot kill you, make you slightly uncomfortable for a couple hours maybe.

This system is based on need not want. You are a spoilt child.

You wait at A&E for a wrist sprain and things like that. You sound pathetic. The NHS does a great job.

12

malkster,

raining 30/08/2007 07:24:31

#3

Yes, must be struggling to survive on a mere £100,000 a year.

13

Judge&Jury,

Glasgow 30/08/2007 07:51:51

It took a report to work this out?

Anyone having to deal with out of hours services knows that the government has paid GP's over £60,000 a year to walk away from out of hours cover.

Meanwhile nurses are being asked to upskill and do the things that doctors used to do all for a 2.5% pay rise - digusting.

Go to any club in the land and you will hear doctors talking about how much better their lives are under the new contract and how they actually are paid more to do less - isn't exactly a ringing endorsement on the Goverments ability to deliver performance gains in the NHS.

Once again the public suffers because civil servants couldn't manage a pay negotiation?

The person/people who negotiated this on behalf of the Government should be sacked as they aren't "fit for Purpose"

14

'Hezza,

30/08/2007 07:53:52

Serves the Gov't right for effectively giving GPs a pay-cut by giving below inflation pay awards.

15

Gernasher,

Glasgow 30/08/2007 07:55:35
16

'Hezza,

30/08/2007 07:56:07

...but yes, I agree, they are paid extremely well, however, as #14 points out, the person negotiating for the Gov't was a prime, 100%, taste the difference numpty.

17

yolanda,

30/08/2007 07:58:37

Doctors have trained and qualified at the expense of the taxpayer. We should be entitled to have them available when we need them, and not when it suits them. I used to have a lot of respect for doctors, but I have to say that in the recent past, when many of them became more interested in the money than the patient, my respect has dwindled.

Who is the doctor in the photo? Doctor Crippen? I wouldn't want HIM doing an out of hours call on me!

18

GD,

Stop I want to get off 30/08/2007 08:00:23

99% of people would opt out of working evenings and weekends if it only meant reducing their salary by a miniscule percentage. However it's completely impractical and therefore in most cases isn't offered as an option.
Now what's so different about doctors?
If they want 9 - 4 let them retrain as teachers.

19

Judge&Jury,

Glasgow 30/08/2007 08:09:52

19

Perhaps the Doctors should be forced like the prison officers to work even when they don't want to through the Law?

20

Riley Hamish,

EDINBURGH 30/08/2007 08:48:09

Funny how in France, with the best health care in the world, has doctors with pay scales WAY, way below UK levels.
That is not to say that all UK doctors are overpaid, but the fact remains that the ethos of public service is still strong and alive in France, could it be that SOME..repeat SOME british doctors see the new lucrative pay deal also as a chance to dilute that element of the job???

21

Honest Jock,

Leith 30/08/2007 08:54:32

I doubt they will be missed I was under the impression it was the receptionists that ran the medical centres and decided who was or wasnt ill enough to see a doctor.

22

JimC,

30/08/2007 09:01:00

This is not just about evening and week-end working, its about changes in surgery practice as well. In our surgery, doctors will not even take a simple blood sample, you have to come back next week so a nurse can do it. Last year this happened to my wife and the following day we got a call to say she had to go straight into hospital. In all her stay lasted 5 days. If the doctor had done it on the day she would have been home on the very day she got that phone call PATHETIC. They are opting-out and doing less each day so to increase numbers in order to increase their profits.

23

Country Life,

30/08/2007 09:03:39

The entry barriers to becoming a doctor are high. You need to have very good exam results to get into medical school in the first place, and then you have a very long period of training. These people have options, highly intelligent and prepared to undergo onerous training they could undertake many other well paid professions if they so chose. A medical career has therefore to be sufficiently attractive to bring new recruits in into the profession, and it is certainly much more attractive than it once was.

Having said that, it does appear that the pendulum has swung too far. Doctors essentially have an assured income and do not have to build and maintain a competitive business like other professionals. Doctors deserve a quality of life, but equally they need to provide a service and their contracts should fairly reward them for doing so. In the past they were asked too much so you can hardly blame them for embracing the new contract with open arms. The fault lies with those who drew up the contract, not with the doctors.

24

Judge&Jury,

Glasgow 30/08/2007 10:07:19

Where did the Hippocratic oath go in all of this Doctors contract?

I wonder what price you could put on your oath?

25

snipet,

westlothian 30/08/2007 10:16:09

Health in Scotland is devolved let Salmond etal put the money up to pay for the service.As has been commented upon by other commentators the Govt negotiated the contract with the GP's and are now selling them short. GP's were able to opt out in order that they could provide a better service during "normal" surgery hours without being half asleep following an overnight stint. Would you like to place your life in the hands of a partially awake practitioner. The same arguement has been raised by Junior hospital doctors who were working without much sleep hence the working time directive was applied.The GP's have had to pay to have their "working hours" reduced by opting out of working into the evening and weekends.

26

von-Scharnhorst,

Brandenburg Preußen (ex Bathgate) 30/08/2007 10:25:29

"Out of hours service"??? Bloody PATHETIC!

Do like we do here, "If it's THAT bad you know where to find the number for the bloody ambulance, and THEY will take you to something called a HOSPITAL, you MAY have heard of them".

27

Fenland Farmer,

Cambs & Glos 30/08/2007 10:56:00

Sorry to say in England getting a GP out of hours is nigh impossible. Recent advice given to my family with a "weekend" very sick daughter was to drive the 17 miles to A&E as it would take hours to get a doctor to us.
Out of hours GP service is in a sorry mess along with the Ambulance Service which is totally overstretched. I fully understand GP's needing quality time off but I hope the "Managers" who have organised the out of hours "service" fall ill after hours. When I complained to my GP (working hours) I was advised to write a letter of complaint...yes right!
Sounds like Scotland is about to catch up with us with regard to this improved service. Shout long and Hard! Unlease your FM! We need help!

28

ARP,

Scotland 30/08/2007 11:17:26

Not for the first time, I have to point out that NHS24 is in trouble because those who manage it are unaware that the procedure for dealing with calls does NOT require expert nurses, but it DOES require expert communicators. The decision tree, that has to be followed when handling calls is, or should be, explicit, all embracing and categorical. Once there is latitude and the nurse is allowed to exercise 'professional judgement' on the frail information obtained over the phone, things start to go wrong. E.g. nurses have already admitted to trying to save doctors' time by giving treatment advice themselves.

The NHS24 system is reeling because it is staffed by the wrong kind of people. I have written to politicians and officials about this but never receive a reply. It seems to be outside their mind set that they have it so badly wrong.

No nurse should ever think of joining NHS24 - if she does the job properly, all she has to do is follow the rules blindly and there could be nothing more stultifying for a dedicated professional. On the other hand, if the nurse departs from the rules, and if things go wrong, he (or she) will be hung out to dry. The courts look on professionals who make errors very differently to non-professionals. Without nurses, not only would the system be easier to staff, it would work better and patients would be safer.

Interrogating an anxious or distressed caller about signs and symptoms, perhaps where the caller’s own command of English is weak, is a job for a trained communicator able to comprehend local dialects and accents. So wake up NHS24 and think again if you want to survive!

29

AG.,

Scotland 30/08/2007 12:05:01

Is it not possible for the work to be shared between nurses and doctors and if in doubt call an ambulance.

30

lachlan,

30/08/2007 12:06:31

#12 well looks like i've touched a nerve.when you 'wait'at A and E as i am sure you know you are assessed by a 'triage nurse' who by all accounts is 'diagnosing' which was at one time seen as a doctors role.as you will also be know the of nurses pay has not increased as thier responsibilities have.which dare i say is not the same as other health professionals i could think of.
i must praise you however on how you feel so confident on your assessment of someone with so little information perhaps you would make a good triage nurse

31

Monsmeg,

30/08/2007 12:21:44

My experience of the out of hours service has been appalling. Having had to get a friend to drive 30 miles to take me to the clinic, I was only allowed to see a nurse who was unable to prescribe anything for the extreme pain I was suffering - the advice given was the same as I had over the phone from NHS24 and which hadn't helped me. It was another 24 hours before I was able to see a doctor.
And try getting an appointment to see you GP outwith their working hours of 9 to 5 Monday to Friday now!
We have a private GP who sees us at a time which suits us and also provides a service, should we need it, 24 hours a day just like the good old fashioned family doctors did! Not only that, we trust him which we definitely can't say about our NHS doctors anymore or their deteriorating service.

32

Faye,

30/08/2007 12:24:26

"GPs abandon evening and weekend working"

GP's are self employed businesses, they get paid on written prescriptions! But they do get a base salary from the NHS system and in order to keep their base salary and occupational pension scheme, evening and weekend work on a rota basis should be part of their contract. If the GP community mump and moan, well the taxpayer should re-consider these GP's position, their guaranteed benefits and whether they of good value to their community.

If GPs want to go private that's fine, but don't expect the UK taxpayer to fund and pay for their education at university to practice in the private sector.

Far too many doctors use NHS facilities for the private sector.

Those doctors, nurses and GP's who offer good value to the taxpayer and the community, the public should have no fear, but those who want to do little, including evening and weekend work, taxpayers ought to reconsider their positions and if they are good value to their community.

33

Jalepeno,

30/08/2007 12:44:31

#27 and #37 it's like banging your head off a brick wall with British society today.

The work mentality is going stateside with sleep when you dead, lunch is for losers trash.

The real problem is people fear taking time off for a Doctor's appointment in case of what their boss will think.

The mocha latte muffin eating city worker (reads useless theiving leech on society) demands that they get there oral herpes (from kissing botties and talking faeces all day) when they 'want'.

Whereas the medical services are provide on need, not want. What does the thieving leech in the city care if ten people die to treat their multiple minor multiple ailments? Very little.

34

ContinentalOp,

Newcastle 30/08/2007 14:09:16

As the partner of a new GP and a doctor myself, I would like to add a different perspective to this heated debate.

Firstly, it was the government who negotiated the GP contract and miscalculated the fact that most practices are pretty well run and will meet most targets that were incentivised. The GP contract has enabled a significant minority of GP partners to be clinicians and businessmen and they have potential for 6 figure earnings by running efficient practices. The average salary for a salaried (non partner) GP is more likely 65k pa (still comfortable, don't get me wrong..).

The concept that GPs can choose whether or not to work out of hours and accept less pay is pretty fair I think. The problem is that health authorities will employ doctors without quality control (e.g. some EU doctors, 2nd rate UK doctors) quite happily to fill the shortfall in out of hours care. My wife does work out of hours shifts and comments on the variable standard of care sometimes because a doctor from Germany for example is unfamiliar with local policy and systems, rather than clinical acumen.

Like most of our colleagues, we did not enter medicine because of a drive for high earnings. We have studied for medical school exams, royal college memberships and postgraduate diplomas in our own time and (barring undergrad studies) entirely own expense. Most GPs provide excellent care and are now rewarded for this - but expect the nature of primary care to change because of this perceived over payment. The GP contract was poorly negotiated by the govertnment, bottom line. Tesco will be a large employer of salaried GPs within ten years, mark my words...

35

Haggislover,

30/08/2007 14:15:49

Maybe they should take the hypocritic oath instead.

36

nolimits,

Beautifull BC 30/08/2007 14:24:36

Hey! All you whiners, are you prepared to take 7 years out of your life to become a GP? Tax payer funded or not, these folks have made a huge commitment for their future, and have every right to decide to 'opt out'
if they choose. Look at it this way, IF, all GP's chose to become private, what would your NHS do then. They would still have to negotiate some sort of service contract, or force GP's into servitude. Perhaps thats what the gov't. should do, scrap publicly funded doctor education, make 'em pay fot it themselves, and when done, set them loose on an unsuspecting pay as you go population. I can hear the cries of outrage now.....Well.... dummy up people, will you work 16-18 hrs/day, 365? I doubt it! Its what you expect these Dr's to do. Be at your beck and call 24/7. Get a grip. They want a life too.

37

skeptic griggsy,

Augusta, Ga. 30/08/2007 14:31:35

Should we in America go for something like your health service or the French or the Scandinavian!

38

Anne,

30/08/2007 15:02:21

This morning a Glasgow GP was stabbed and seriously injured in her surgery.
She's not getting paid enough to take risks like that.

39

Faye,

30/08/2007 15:06:55

#39 "Tesco will be a large employer of salaried GPs within ten years, mark my words"

And that must be resisted at all costs.

There is far too much power by multinationals. What is our government doing about this?

Politicians it seems are becoming more and more like puppet governments, ignoring the people, the taxpayers, those who elect them.

Just look at the wind industry, a perfect example. Is it any wonder that people are now questioning if politicians and councillors are at the beck and call of big business rather than implementing what the people want?

It couldn't get any better for the multinational corporate director that fleeces the UK taxpayers' purse. These businesses have carved out, a low risk, no risk business: payment backed by the UK taxpayers and their parent company is often offshore/internationally based to avoid UK corporation tax.

Meanwhile small businesses are left in a high risk business sector. Hoping their bills will get paid, often by the multinational, some of the worst culprits of holding onto small businesses cash.

No doubt doctors in the UK will be able to testify to that with the number of patients suffering from stress from overwork, bullying by bad managers and a desire by such multinational companies to work for peanuts, working evenings and weekends.

A base salary of £65k would be like winning the lottery for some Tesco or multinational employees.

The modern day slave labour attitude by such companies is enough to drive anyone to a GP, that's if they can find one willing to work, weekends and evenings.

40

Faye,

30/08/2007 15:11:31

#44 Anne. That's awful. I hope she is okay. Shocking to hear.

The person who stabbed her should be barred from receiving any free health services, assuming their is no mental illness. If treatment is necessary, such individuals should have their pay or benefits reduced to pay for securityguards.

41

what one,

Here 30/08/2007 15:41:13

#30. I'm a bit confused as to the need for your venemous attack on NHS24.. I believed the article was stating that IN GENERAL the OOH care is at crisis point due to lack of GP's.

NHS24 are NOT responsible for the OOH care provision. They are one part of the jigsaw . The responsibility for arranging face to face provision is that of your local primary care trust.
It is not now nor ever been responsibility of NHS24.

Are you next going to argue that the delay in A&E treatment is a fault of the Ambulance service who dare to bring in patients while you are waiting to be treated.

You also say
"Interrogating an anxious or distressed caller about signs and symptoms, perhaps where the caller’s own command of English is weak, is a job for a trained communicator able to comprehend local dialects and accents"

In cases of poor understanding of the english language interpreter services are offered... And I know this is not the case in many other services within the NHS including A&E's

Siomply asking a caller about sympotms and signs is hardly an interogation.. I am sure you do not turn up at the surgery to see the GP or Practice Nurse simply sit in the chair and let them guess what is wrong without entering into some kind of dialogue.

It is a sad sign of the times that a few mindless selfish people try to twist the facts and spead fear amoung the community for no better reason than they are very sad boring individuals..

42

,

30/08/2007 15:42:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
43

what one,

Here 30/08/2007 15:44:22

# 44 & 46.

This is indeed a terrible thing to happen to any individual.

By this mindless act for what ever reason there are bound to be changes in security in many practices and this will only impact on the ability to deliver speedy and safe services to patients.

I wish Dr Jackson a speedy recovery from her injuries.

44

,

30/08/2007 15:50:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
45

mk,

edin 30/08/2007 15:55:14

I dont know if I would want a doctor who has already worked a 10 hour? or more day to attend to me if I am ill in the middle of the night. Why can we not have a system where doctors start their day at 10pm and finish at 10am just like other shift workers. Or is this too simple??

46

,

30/08/2007 16:05:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
47

Ricco,

30/08/2007 16:08:34

I'm a little confused about where all this hatred of GPs came from.

Yes, the taxpayer paid for thier training. The taxpayer also paid for the law degrees of the soliciters who do your conveyancing - will you demand a right to have them work twenty hours a day (and at 3am if you so decide) and expect them to be on top form every time you see them.

I demand to see an accountant - and only the one I choose, mind you - at 2am on a Saturday night! Every Saturday night! I paid for his university training, after all. He/she owes me.

Also choosing the doctor on-call because of their knowledge of your case is a rank fallacy. Doctors do not keep copies on patients' notes in their homes, and will remember enough details of only a small number of patients they have dealt with recently. Or is it suggested that they live in the Health Centre so they can take the notes of anyone in the middle of the night?

Of much more danger is that this new contract will split the GP profession. A 'feudal' system has been created where a few partners (by no means all) make a lot of money, and the rest of the GPs make somewhere between £50,000 and £70,000 a year. Would you work 24 hours a day for £50,000 a year? This is why the Tesco scenario is such a danger - it would actually make most younger doctors better off to work for Tesco rather than the NHS. How do you feel about being left in the care of the grizzled old gits?

The current labour government did over-egg this contract for GP partners, but nowhere near to the extent believed. I also believe they have acted with rank cowardice in encouraging discontent with GPs to deflect blame from their own incompetent calculations.

48

Shuggie,

Canada 30/08/2007 16:30:37

I cannot see how it is either clinically or economically efficient to have a doctor who knows nothing of patients' previous histories see them for the first time as an out-of hours emergency.
I dare say I am jealous because I did not have the choice of opting out of night work! I was a GP for 50 years.

49

Annawa,

30/08/2007 16:44:20

Those who are trying to equate GPs and lawyers are simply not using a level playing field. They are quite different, although both have had their training paid for by the taxpayer. Of course a lawyer's client will not require his services late at night or in the early hours of the morning. Nothing in that case is so urgent it can't wait to be dealt with the following day. Dealing with sick patients is quite another thing.

My elderly neighbour took ill in the evening. She was unable to explain articulately over the phone all of the symptoms. She just knew something was seriously wrong, but didn't quite know what. She didn't want to call an ambulance in case she was wasting their time, but she was feeling very ill. She was told her doctor would not come to her home to see her. Her family found her lying at the back of the door the following afternoon, and fortunately called an ambulance who got her to hospital just in time. She could have died because her GP wouldn't call out to see her at 7pm. I think this is a shocking state of affairs. Doctors should be more committed to their job. It should be a vocation. Shame on those who opt out of everything.

50

AlastairEwen,

30/08/2007 16:52:36

It takes brains to get into medical school and the studying is tough. Those who get to medical school all have other options and I would urge those who might contemplate a career in medicine to think again - or emigrate.

Whining snivelling jealous useless clueless tossers. Take your complaints and shove 'em where you shove your suppositories.

51

Jalepeno,

30/08/2007 17:07:42

# 55 "trying to equate GPs and lawyers are simply not using a level playing field"

Firstly, you don't compare two vocations with a playing field, in fact a playing field is seldom used to compare any unit. But let's get past the nonsensical city talk that you repeat parrot fashion because you want to sound as 'clever' as your boss.

Secondly, one profession has purpose and moral foundation and offer value for money, the other vocation gets paid far more.

We should remeber that and also remember that the criticism the story is based on is 8/9 "doctors felt" if only other public services replied so honestly when asked. Accountability and honesty, no nothing to find here.

52

Soosie,

30/08/2007 17:09:27

#56 It takes brains to do a lot of things. You're right, those who get to medical school do have other options, and that's exactly why they should think long and hard about what they are prepared to take on before entering the medical profession. if they want to be a GP, they should be prepared to work at times that lawyers and other professions don't. If they don't have that level of committment to their patients, they should chhose another career in my opinion. My late father in law was a doctor in the highlands. He served his community for thirty years and would turn in his grave to see how many GPs nowadays have sold out. Nobody expects every GP to be on call at all times, but all of them should be prepared to do at least occasional out of hours work. If they aren't, they should join one of the other highly paid professions.

The biggest fools of course though are the politicians who allowed this situation to arise in the first place.

53

Annawa,

30/08/2007 17:20:38

#57. It is obvious from your posts that you are unable to express an opinion without resorting to insulting the people to whom you respond, and that's not very "clever". Incidentally, I don't HAVE a boss.

You're right that the NHS does a great job. It is largely made up of dedicated and committed people who work hard for not a lot of money, and I applaud them. However, GPs are highly paid and can (and often do) opt out of anyhting they don't want to do, placing more pressure on those at the lower end of the pay scale (eg nurses) who have to prop up the part of the service that has diminished ie the out of hours GP service.

54

Ricco,

30/08/2007 17:36:14

#59
Gps cannot 'opt out of anyhting they don't want to do'. they are subject to legally binding contracts with the Government.

Do you believe everything the government infers? They made a mess of the contract and now want someone else to take the blame to avoid losing votes. How about trying to make them accountable? Knee-jerk agreements with craven government ministers is hardly helpful.

Incidentally, I do make the comparison between doctors, lawyers, accountants, dentists, engineers. They are all professionals, governed by laws and codes of conduct. To expect every member of a profession to be like mother Theresa is a bizarre mind-set, and not to be welcomed. The cult of personality is not productive.

55

Robb,

30/08/2007 17:44:29

The new contracts were badly thought out and now we, the patients, pay the price, while the GPs reap the benefits. The politicians are to blame. they shouldn't have given GPs the opt out option.

56

Walkerman,

30/08/2007 17:55:53

I doubt if any reasonable person would expect GPs to continuously work evenings and weekends, but surely there should be some kind of compromise between not doing it and always doing it. I feel that the GPs have sold out. However, as others have said, they have done so because they were presented with the opportunity. They shouldn't have been given the choice. The politicians cocked up with this one.

I believe that each GP should have to commit to a set number of hours during the course of the year where they will attend to their patients outwith the hours of 9 to 5. I don't expect them to be Mother Theresa, but I do think the patients have a right to see a doctor when they are sick, and that doesn't only happen between 9 and 5 Monday to Friday. They knew that when they embarked on their medical career.

57

Miss H,

30/08/2007 18:36:13

Has nobody ever heard of flexi working?

58

Miss H,

30/08/2007 18:38:54

58

Many lawyers and other professionals do work very long hours. I don't think all that many people work a 9 to 5 day now.

59

Miss H,

30/08/2007 18:44:20

38 You're a bit mad aren't you? But you have something approaching a valid point.

People simply live much busier lives now and public services need to reflect that.

I cannot believe that it is beyond the wit of GP managers to devise a flexible shift system. Many many other places of work operate like this.

60

Miss H,

30/08/2007 19:24:01

66

Try being a cop.

Try being a social worker.

Try being a housing officer.

You'll have just as much fun with the junkies, neds and loonies but you'll find your pay packet doesn't go quite as far.

61

** JM**,

Glasgow 30/08/2007 19:28:32

Peter #66. Your scenario of a GP being woken up at 3am by a mother in need of baby milk is absolute drivel. No GP has ever taken direct calls from the public as part of the out of hours service. The calls are answered by a telephonist who assesses the nature of the call before the doctor is disturbed, therefore if the GP is called out to such an situation, it is the fault of the person who anwers the call. Still, why tell the truth when a good old fabricated scenario will do?

Yes, people abuse the service. Yes, people call for ridiculous reasons, but it is not the GP who deals with that. If the operator answering the call is doing their job, the doctor will only attend the genuinely needy. That includes those with sever mental health issues, who wouldn't actually be in a waiting room out of hours, because the health centre would be closed.

The out of hours service should be there for those in need, and GPs should understand that. If they don't, they're in the wrong profession.

My parents were doctors. One of them still is. They believed in putting the patients interests first. You know, the old school doctor type. Pity they seem to be a dying breed!

62

Tobytoo,

CT. U.S.A. 30/08/2007 19:45:16

#12 Jalepeno
It is you who are PATHETIC with your stupid and insulting answer to Lachlan's comment.

63

AyrshireScot,

30/08/2007 19:45:28

# 9 - Meningitis? Flu in the elderly? Septecemia, in the elderly? Salmonella, E coli, E Hirae, Rota virus in the elderly, very young or immunosuppressed? mm, alot of conditions could kill "between GP and hospital" and not wait 12 hours.

#67 - well said/ written. Doctors are paid for out of hours service, can appreciate the guy (#66) may experience alot of "time-wasters" (but how does a panicked mother know what is an emergency and what not), but the pay level and contracts are based on this service provision, no?

64

AyrshireScot,

30/08/2007 19:47:24

#69 - Tobytoo, but do please note that Jalepeno ~10 has experience of being treated for a wrist sprain. Not surprising if you have read his posts.

65

Jalepeno,

30/08/2007 20:35:43

#69 - nope, not at all, you DO NOT WAIT at A&E if you are an emergency, they are tuned in. Admit to yourself you want a service based on selfish wants, not on medical needs. This is the public opinion that forms this style reporting.

#70 There is no way you wouldn't get seen for any of those. I suspect you are inventing situations to allow you to get upset that you need to suffer a man cold,

For both, if your body can recover without antibiotics the doctor will do nothing but let nature servre its course. If there is a doubt you are ill, you will be seen and treated immediately.

Come on, be honest with yourselfs, this is fast food culture, you can't wait, you want that snivling sympton treated now because you are weak.

66

AyrshireScot,

30/08/2007 21:23:37

#72 - your wrist cant be that badly sprained, you still have a free hand to type with. Just mind and give the keyboard a wipe down.

67

nhsdoc,

Scotland, UK 30/08/2007 22:03:44

#36 Gps do not get paid for writing prescriptions or saving money on drugs - we get about £5.17 per patient per year for looking after them. We do not get to keep money that we save on using cheaper drugs or writing more scripts.

#68 IN rural areas most GPs took calls directly from patients until NHS 24 came along in 2004 and the new contract - calls at 3am for crying babies, rashes for 3 weeks, running out of calpol etc. were a weekly occurrence.

GPs do not average anywhere near £100000 in Scotland (that's the English figure). Firstly, any headline figure you see like the £100000 has to have about 15% taken off as we now pay our own employers contribution for pension and claim tax relief individually. This was a clever ploy by the government to artificially inflate our profits for propaganda usage. We also agreed to the new contract which gives us performance related pay for extra targets which are over and above 'normal care'.GPs provide cover 0800-1830 Monday Friday which is still a 52.5 hour week and most of us work much later then this anyway. Most Gps still do do some out of hours work which is paid separately - why should we work for free when a plumber charges £100 per hour to come out at night.
We do not sign an oath to care for people 24/7 and the days of Dr Finlay are gone because a) patients are more demanding and expect to be seen 24/7 for convenience rather than need b) medicine is more complex and we don't just treat the acute problem, we have to manage chronic disease aswell.
Nobody complains that anyone in banking or law gets paid wads of cash, and the figures you see for GPs are all inclusive of 'bonuses' and private reports etc., whereas the private sector will get huge bonuses that aren;t declared when comparing salaries.
The hippocratic oath is nothing about serving the sick 24/7 anyway - consultants etc. don't work 24/7 but no one minds them getting nearly the same salary and the ability to earn wads of cash from p

68

Jalepeno,

30/08/2007 22:06:04

#73 I appreciate it comes to you as a 'shock' that you are perfectly and well served in this country for medical services and that this country will do everything in its power to keep you alive.

But... with all due respect sir that 'shock' does not qualify as an emergency and you will have to wait until morning before you can talk it over with your caring GP.

69

Candelwick,

Crestview, Florida, USA 30/08/2007 22:21:38

As we will soon be nationalizing the health industry in th US, I am curious how your GP salaries line up to those for teachers, plumbers, electricians, bank clerks etc in Scotland. Most people are quite greedy and seem to feel they should not have to pay a cost to recieve the essentials of life, but should be given them without cost.

70

Jalepeno,

30/08/2007 22:49:34

#77 Perhaps a niave comment by a yanky.

You pay low taxes, we pay high taxes, the price has ipso facto been paid.

71

albanoch,

kyoto japan 30/08/2007 23:21:37

2# Boy wonder. Couldn't agree more scarry picture indeed looks like iether like a vampire caught in the act just as he's just about to have a tasty suck or it's two gay boys fumblin' aboot in the dark....then again it could be some of the scotsman staff fumblin' aboot the dark.
Yeah, I'll go for the latter as it's much more likely.

72

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 31/08/2007 00:18:26

Hello All,

Well, what can I say about a socialized system which turns doctors into virtual slaves, THEN when those slaves are given the option of limited freedom and they take it, those champions of Socialized Medicine have the gall to be surprised.

Limiting the number of licenses issued for doctors? What idiocy.

More people need more care these days, and what do the cretins in the Burocracy do, LIMIT how many people can become car givers.
Their answer NOW to fill the gaps?
Bring in under qualified doctors from overseas.
How can I possibly say "underqualified" when compared to British Med schools?
Because medical standards across the globe are NOT uniform-hence, neither is the teaching/instructing of those standards.

You folks want the docs to work their butts off for little to NOTHING compared to the YEARS and TRAINING they have to put in to actually become a doctor.

You want YOUR lives to be peachy keen, but a doctor isn't supposed to have a life, a family, actually enjoy him/herself?

What a crock!

Selfishness is what the Patient's Group is offering and stupidity is what the Socialized Burocrats are committing.

Open up your medical system to the Free Market TOTALLY, working out some form of reimbursement based on patient income, for those doctors who opt out of the socialized system.

Doctors are NOT slaves, no matter how much or how many people, want to so make them.

I'm not a champion of doctors mind you; I'm not in good health myself, no med insurance, and no way to get medical solutions to my health problems.

However, that is NOT the problem of the doctors, my neighbors, or other tax payers; it is MY responsibility people, not yours or anyone else's.

Cheers from the Rockies.

73

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 31/08/2007 00:31:09

Hello Jalapeno,

My dear fellow, you're equating apples with kumquats.

The level of education, responsibility, legal liability, etc., are NOT even from one job to another.

Do you go to an electrician to have surgery? Want or need your gall bladder out? Do you head down to your local locksmith to have that done?

Doctors have OUR LIVES in their hands on a daily basis. Electricians deal with blow circuits, new wiring, etc. Plumbers deal with water pipes, wells, and gas feeds.

There is usually an inspector who comes and makes sure that the work was done properly and to code, when the electrician or plumber is done.

There is no during or "after surgery" inspector giving a stamp of approval to a doctor: that stamp of approval was given when he/she graduated from medical school and passed the Board Exams.

Doctors are NOT being paid enough in Great Britain and the socialized system there is crippling the medical system in finding, teaching, and producing, new quality doctors.

The answer Whitehall has come up with is IMPORTATION of doctors whom do NOT have the same level, quality, or intensity of training, that British trained doctors have.

This means that the quality of medical care for the average taxpayer is NOT what a person should expect or quite probably, need.

Open up your markets, lower your taxes, and let an amalgam of socialized and free market medical systems work for Great Britain.

Letting nearly ignorant bean counters in London or Edinburgh do it, people without a lick of medical background, will only exacerbate an already sticky problem.

Oh yes, the "lower taxes" we pay here in the USA, allows the poor to become middle class, and the middle class to become "well off," and the "well off" to become rich, and the rich to become wealthy.

Not in several generations, but in one or two-and all without an aristocratic title or a single drop of blue b

74

Navvy,

31/08/2007 00:51:40

Our Airports are a national disgrace

They are several orders of magnitude behind thouse in the Gulf, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore and even Jakarta

75

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 31/08/2007 01:29:15

Hello 82,

Perhaps, but considerably fewer people willing to yell Allah Akbar and murder dozens or hundreds of people.

Cheers from the Rockies.


 

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