Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


'Endangered' Gaelic on map of world's dead languages

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 20 February 2009
GAELIC is "definitely endangered" and needs help to survive the 21st century, according to a new report which puts it on a map of the world's dead and threatened languages.
Unesco, the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation, says half of the 6,700 languages spoken today are in danger of disappearing before the century ends, unless urgent action is taken by governments and speaker communities.

It hopes its Atlas of the World's Languages in Danger, published yesterday, will help the preservation of under-threat tongues. The threatened languages are ranked as unsafe, definitely endangered, severely endangered, critically endangered and extinct.

Gaelic is seen as definitely endangered as there were just 58,552 speakers left in the 2001 census. Unesco says a language is endangered when its speakers stop using it, or use it less often and stop passing it on to the next generation.

It says: "Today, increased migration and rapid urbanisation often bring along the loss of traditional ways of life and a strong pressure to speak a dominant language that is – or is perceived to be – necessary for full civic participation and economic advancement."

Koichiro Matsuura, Unesco's director-general, said: "The death of a language leads to the disappearance of many forms of intangible cultural heritage, especially the invaluable heritage of traditions and oral expressions of the community that spoke it – from poems and legends to proverbs and jokes."

Gaelic supporters last night said the language has been suffering for many years but is undergoing a revival thanks to developments such as the Gaelic TV channel BBC Alba.

Arthur Cormack, interim chairman of Bòrd na Gàidhlig, the national Gaelic development agency, said: "To have a body like Unesco recognising the importance and value of Gaelic is very helpful as we advance the case for the language.

"Our work is geared not so much towards its survival but the development of the language. We recognise the precarious nature of where it's been but we believe the decline is being halted and numbers are beginning to turn around."

A new Gaelic website launched by the board two weeks ago has had 9,146 visits from 60 countries already.

BBC Alba, which started in September, is also watched by about 400,000 viewers, well ahead of the 250,000 expected.

The Scottish Government has backed the language. Michael Russell, the culture minister, said Gaelic is an essential part of Scotland's traditional and modern culture.

The number of Gaelic speakers in Scotland dropped from 250,000 – 7 per cent of the population – in 1881 to less than 100,000 by the 1950s as generations of Gaels were punished in school for not using English. By the 1980s numbers fell to 79,307 and by the 2001 census Gaelic speakers represented just 1.2 per cent of the population.

However, the decline has slowed and the number of young people interested in the language has been growing.

Gaelic medium education has grown from two units with just over 20 pupils in 1985 to over 3,000 primary children, hundreds more in Gaelic nurseries, while thousands take Gaelic as a subject in secondary school.

A national plan for Gaelic was launched to raise the profile of the language in everyday life and envisages stabilising the number of speakers by 2011, and to reach a target of 100,000 speakers by 2041.

A number of public bodies have now produced Gaelic plans and a study for Highland Council has also shown that the number of job opportunities for Gaelic speakers has never been higher.



FACT BOX

ACCORDING to Unesco, more than 200 languages became extinct during the past three generations, 538 are critically endangered, 502 severely endangered, 632 definitely endangered and 607 unsafe.

The Atlas states that 199 languages have fewer than ten speakers and 178 others have ten to 50. Languages that recently became extinct include Aasax (Tanzania) in 1976, Ubykh (Turkey) in 1992 and Eyak (Alaska) in 2008.

Cornish and Manx are also said to be extinct. However, Jenefer Lowe, of the Cornish Language Partnership, says there has been a revival in the past 20 years.

There are also thought to be about 600 active Manx speakers, while the Welsh Language Board says there about 500,000 speakers.



Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 20 February 2009 12:30 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Gaelic language
 
1

webwise,

Scotland 19/02/2009 22:07:17
Hopefully we won't see any insulting or ignorant comments on this story.

The Scottish Government have recognised the need to promote and help the Gaelic language. BBC Alba have attracted many more viewers than originally anticipitad.

The language is woven into Scotland's rich cultural tapestry and will hopefully flourish.
2

Tracker,

20/02/2009 00:05:24
How can it be endangered if if it is growing in schools and 400,000 people watch the Gaelic TV channel?
3

Tris,

20/02/2009 00:21:12
#2. Rufus. What a load of ignorant twaddle.

I like signage in Gaelic. I'd rather have that than the London Olympics which Mrs Jowells tells us will bring benefits to every part of the UK. I'm wondering what exactly the Western Isles are going to get out of it. Have you any idea Rufus?

We should redouble our efforts to keep this language alive and functioning in the 21st century. Our country will be the worse if it passes.

Well done the government for spending long overdue money on these projects.
4

Tris,

20/02/2009 00:22:30
~5 Because Rufus, they pay a tv licence and they are entitled to see and hear stuff in their own language.
5

karin.m,

20/02/2009 00:25:25
5 perhaps thats something you should be asking your beloved gordon who signed the UK up to the european minority languages treaty and perhaps you should also ask why glasgow city council doesnt teach gaelic to catholic schoolchildren attending catholic schools.
6

Iain Galbraith,

Argyll 20/02/2009 00:25:52
Oh Rufus give your childish nonsense a break. Chill out and let Gaelic flourish.
7

Iain Galbraith,

Argyll 20/02/2009 00:28:14
Glasgow City Council teaches Gaelic to all children whose families opt for the Gaelic school. If you want gaelic introduced into your own school then speak to your council about it.
8

Iain Galbraith,

Argyll 20/02/2009 00:38:33
I can access TV programmes in virtually every European language and many world languages without leaving these shores.
Unfortunately, unless I subscribe to Rupert and sell my soul I cannot access Gaelic programmes in Scotland.
BBC Alba for Freeview - an drasta fhèin !
9

Iain Galbraith,

Argyll 20/02/2009 00:44:09
It is of course terrific news that the intake of primary 1 pupils in the Glasgow Gaelic school was 71 last August.
This must surely be the biggest intake for any primary school in Glasgow.
10

Rob - Honest Toun,

20/02/2009 00:47:06
In 1872 the Liberal Government in London threapit bi wey o its Education (Scotland) Act, that frae then on the only language alloued tae be spoken in aw Scottish scuils wis tae be English. Ony bairns (or teachers) catched yaisin aither o the twa vernacular languages (Scots or Gaelic) wis punished an telt tae learn tae speak "properly". This cultural cleansin wis cairried oot tae mak North Britain an English speakin province an wis duin for political reasons.

Maist fowk, the likes o Rufus, haes acceppit this brainwashin athoot question but some o us ithers pits a bigger value on oor ain culture an language an maks a maucht tae keep thaim baith alive an weel. Ye cannae pit a price on that.
11

Iain Galbraith,

Argyll 20/02/2009 00:51:06
Math a thuirt thu a charaid !
(Well said my friend !)
12

karin.m,

20/02/2009 00:57:10
15 and would be more if they allowed catholic schoolchildren to adhere to their religion.
13

karin.m,

20/02/2009 00:57:53
iain aye i would like the bbc alba on freeview as well.
14

AC,

Melbourne 20/02/2009 02:12:23
I burst out laughing when I went back to Edinburgh a few years ago and there were bilingual signs with Gaelic - no one in Edinburgh ever spoke Gaelic!

As has been said there are far more people speaking Polish, Urdu, Punjabi etc. and putting up signs in these languages would actually help them get around - while not one single person in Scotland claims to speak Gaelic only with no English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Gaelic).

Meanwhile, in jest I ask why aren't we resurrecting Latin too?

But more seriously if we could all communicate more easily around the globe, we'd all get on better.
So instead of diggin up the languages of the past, why aren't we focussing on teaching our children the languages of the future, such as Cantonese/Mandarin, Hindi and Spanish?
15

Sierra Foothills Scot,

Diamond Springs 20/02/2009 02:21:16
Soulless Rufus wants to kill everything his selfish self dislikes.

See 'Dìomhair'on BBC Alba on March 6 at 9PM.

16

Mìcheal a Eilean Rùim,

Richmond 20/02/2009 03:37:06
Rufus (and whoever AC Melbourne is) demonstrate that to some people culture can only be measured by a cash value. It was ever thus with the illiterati and those to whom "culture" simply means more tests to find out which of the newest disgusting diseases they have acquired.
17

donald,

glasgow 20/02/2009 05:25:47
Polish, Urdu, Punjabi etc, are not at risk and have their own Governments. They are not occupied by a hostile language that has spent Billions in modern term, as well as rivers of, to extirpate the language.
18

Ewan Randall,

20/02/2009 05:40:10
Is there not some irony here that a language which took our native pictish away is now getting the same treatment from English?

Can we not save our oldest surviving language which has added so much to our culture?
19

Ewan Randall,

20/02/2009 06:14:53
(#5) – (Rufus–T-Firefly) – Do you not believe there is any justification in developing television and radio programmes for those who speak their native languages in their own country?
20

Angleland Isover,

20/02/2009 06:39:54
Most of the world, including Scotland, speak english as their second language. Its Shameful that we cant speak our own native tongue.
21

Colin Wilson,

20/02/2009 06:40:56
Re Rufus–T-Firefly #13 : "Where is BBC Poland? BBC Pakistan? BBC India?"

The guy should search Google for "BBC po polsku" and "BBC Asian Network" and then admit he hasn't a clue what he's prattling about.

Gaelic was already classified as "endangered" when UNESCO's Red Book of Endangered Languages appearded in 1999, and Scots was classified as "potentially endangered". I see they've changed this term to "unsafe". Based on the definitions in the earlier publication it seemed to me that Scots ought really to have been classed as "endangered" mainly because, in most places, it is not longer being passed on to children.

It'll be interesting to see whether this has been noted in the latest publication. It is typical of the Scotsman's bias that it mentions Gaelic (and Cornish, Mamx and Welsh) but not Scots.




22

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 20/02/2009 06:47:53
Re #28 "writing that doesn't pronounce as expected. "

That seems not to stop people from learning English.
23

,

20/02/2009 06:48:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
24

W Smith,

Middle East 20/02/2009 06:51:33
Considering the muslim population in the UK is now 2.5 million I think its the Scots who are 'endangered'.

At least Salmond got it right:

1) SNP spend 250,000 quid on mygaelic.com

2) SNP spend 400,000 quid on Islamfest.

This is Salmond being 'nationalistic' and 'standing up to Westminster'.

How will I know if he turns traitor - what will change?
25

Grahamski,

Falkirk 20/02/2009 07:15:03
It's not the governemnt's job to save a language which is dying. If people want to keep it alive then they are quite entitled to do so and if they see it as part of their culture there should be grants available to them to help sustain it.
The thing I find difficult to justify is the level of public spending in Gaelic. I'd really like to know how much it costs us in Gaelic translations at Holyrood. There is a whole Gaelic industry on TV with millions being spent on programmes that have an interest to a tiny minority.
If one school is denied a teacher or one hospital a nurse to pay for a glove puppet talking gaelic then we should all hang our heads in shame at our priorities being skewed to the point of perversion....
26

Grahamski,

Falkirk 20/02/2009 07:48:46
33
John Swinney as finance minister has made much of how tight a settlement the SBG was this year. Yet there must have been a moment when he looked at our education, health and transport needs and reckoned they were so well funded that he millions left over to spend on gaelic.
Wouldn't you just love to ahve heard that internal dialogue: nurses or Mygaelic.com?
27

karin.m,

20/02/2009 07:53:19
34 Hmm yeah i would too. Because the council of ministers has said that it is in fact westminster who is responisble for the development of gaelic. As they are the signatories to the treaty on minority languages. You do have to wonder why westminster didnt pick a fight with alex to be allowed to pay for gaelic and why alex didnt let them. Is it perhaps because he cares about the language. and 28 rules it makes perfect sense when you understand lenition and the other rules.
28

Scotland to prosper...,

20/02/2009 08:04:39
"All these people can speak English anyway so whats the point?"

I take real issue with this line of thought. Your basically stating that because Gaelic is a minority language we shouldn't bother. If thats true, then Polish, Urdu and all the other languages currently spoken by many living in Scotland should not be supported also (council leaflets etc)

Rufus, its sad that people like you exist
29

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 20/02/2009 08:07:55
#34 I enjoy reading many of your ripostes to some of the more outrageous ordure dropped on these pages by nationalist posters. It saddens me however to see you emulate them by taking an overtly political stance on a subject which I think should transcend politics.
30

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 20/02/2009 08:12:35
Theres an article next door to this with regards us dithcing the kitcsh to promote Scotland. Instead we must promote:

"Adventure holidays", "diaspora tours" and "study tours".

Ok.

"adventure holidays" = lochs and mountains
"diaspora tours" = tartans, clans and Gaelic
"study tours" = ancient castles, clans and Gaelic.

Got it. sorted.
31

Truely English,

20/02/2009 08:40:10
Why anyone would bother to learn Gaelic is beyond me as we are all British and English is our language.

The people of Inverness are the best English speakers you will find anywhere in the world and this is something they can feel proud about.

Scottish people have been central to promoting English during the days of the Empire and now you find them as foreign language specialists teaching English langage and promoting English culture everywhere.

Can you not just let this language die out peacefully as it has outlived any useful purpose that is if there ever had been a time when Gaelic was useful.

We live in an age when having English as thee international language is crucial for our very survival as an industrial super-power.
32

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 20/02/2009 08:42:18
Smee

hahahaha! You won't put up for state support for a real dialect/languauge that is still used today but you WILL put up with enforced by threat of fine or jail state support for a program that, in it's way promotes a fake, made up language that never existed in reality?

I think you have ridges on your forehead....
33

cabrach loon,

inverness 20/02/2009 08:44:04
surely it would help immensely if Gaelic was given a spelling makeover so it has at least some resemblance to its pronunciation. I do occasionally watch it because of its Scottish content which is what I want rather than largely immoral and violent tat from down south, but watching the learning Gaelic piece it just goes through me because it is not fully subtitled and the words bear little resemblance to the speech - tradition is all very well but please rewrite it then there might be more hope for it. If China could do it so could Scotland!
34

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 20/02/2009 08:44:38
40

Soon Spanish will be the most spoken language in the Western World.

By the way, the British empire died many years ago. Time for you to move on. As for our Invernesians? They speak English, and Gaelic and Polish.

You're a silly billy and I have an Alf Garnett vision of you just now, in your string vest, shiny shaved head, picture of the Queen above the mantle piece......
35

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 20/02/2009 08:47:42
41

Same for English as well then. It isn't the same from town to town, yet there is a Standard English.
36

nabodican,

Rural Scotland 20/02/2009 08:52:16
In the current financial climate created by Broon & Darling it is foolish in the extreme to spend money on Gaelic. Let the language take its natural course.
As for Gaelic roadsigns - what a waste of money. The people who can read gaelic usually know where they are going, it is the non Gaelic speaking visitors who need the signs in English.
37

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 20/02/2009 08:54:11
46

True but many of our diaspora that will come here for "diaspora tours" according to a futurologist, want to see Gaelic signage etc as they have been learning a wee bit for thier "auld country" visit.

Keep them.
38

Zugspitze,

20/02/2009 08:55:45
My son attends a Gaelic medium school and choosing it was the best thing we could have done for him. He is now virtually fluent in the language, reads and speaks in both English and Gaelic and he has a strong sense of belonging and appreciation of the culture of Scotland. Because it is natural for him to speak two languages he often comments that he wants to learn French amd German as well (I have spoke them to him on ocassion). He is a very well rounded child as are all of the children in his class and they are all very confident in themselves and their abilities. Why is this not something that everyone would want for their children? Why do people seem so intent to limit their child's experiences and distance their children from their cultural heritage simply because THEY don't understand it. I feel there should be a lesson each week in EVERY primary school in gaelic. Expose the children to it and when the time comes to choose an alternative language to learn, let Gaelic be a choice.
In response to the people who have posted that they think it should be allowed to die, I actually feel sorry for you. You seem so intent on denying your own cultural background that you have turned bitter against something you know nothing about. Truly sad.
39

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 20/02/2009 08:56:10
BTW nabodican. I get the feeling you're a bit grumpy today. Some of your comments are, well, pretty ascerbic to say the least!

Cheer up, the snow drops n crocus's are poking through, spring has nearly sprung!
40

eamon,

20/02/2009 08:57:53
#34 grahamski
I would also like to have heard the conversation on 'nurses or 50 million on a painting' or 'nurses or weapons of mass destruction to blow up arabic tents'. In comparison to these examples we spend nothing on the native language of the Scots.
41

Grahamski,

Falkirk 20/02/2009 09:03:22
48
I absolutely respect your right to teach your child gaelic and I'm genuinely pleased for him that he enjoys it.
However, why would I want my children taught gaelic any more than Catalan or Cornish?
Quite simply it is not my culture and while I recognise your right to keep your culture alive I respectfully request that you do not inflict it on me or mine.
42

Grahamski,

Falkirk 20/02/2009 09:04:26
50
"In comparison to these examples we spend nothing on the native language of the Scots."

Since when has gaelic been the 'native language of the Scots'?
43

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 20/02/2009 09:07:44
52

I'm sure that should be "a native language of the Scots".
44

Grahamski,

Falkirk 20/02/2009 09:11:49
53
Aye, me too. Unfortunately gaelic is beginning to be presented as the only strand in our linguistic heriatge. Of course it is important but I really believe that the gaelic lobby has been indulged and its success is down to a romantic and inaccurate understanding of our country's history, culture and indeed language.
45

Zugspitze,

20/02/2009 09:12:11
51

Your children will be taught a language in school. They will have a choice in their later years. Research indicates that starting a different language as early as possible will make it easier. If the Scottish government were to offer short Gaelic lessons to all children until they were of an age they could make their own choice, it would work for everyone. It would possibly ignite the interest in a few more children to learn gaelic AND give the other children a head start in learning ANY language.
Also, I might add that in my son's class there is an Indian child and in his last class (different school) there was a child from Ghana who were both learning gaelic and they were already bi-lingual. Their parents seemed to think that it was a good idea and not simply due to culture.
As for your last sentence, your children are already having other cultures "inflicted" upon them as many children are being taught Urdu, Polish etc words. How is gaelic so much more offensive?
46

Grahamski,

Falkirk 20/02/2009 09:13:01
54
That should of course have read:
...our country's history, culture and indeed languages.
47

Grahamski,

Falkirk 20/02/2009 09:17:38
55
My children were taught French from early primary school.
Gaelic isn't offensive, it's irrelevant. You see it as part of your cultural heritage, I don't.
48

eamon,

20/02/2009 09:20:49
51 grhhamski

My people have lived in the highlands of Scotland for thousands of years. They all spoke gaelic, as do I and my children. Throughout history we have had your english culture inflicted on us and our kin, no matter how respectfully we requested for this not to happen. I am pleased you recognise my right to keep my culture alive though, but then again I dont care if you dont, I seek not your permission, it will happen anyway. If you dont like it tough.

#41 rules
Not bad idea about latin. It is the base language for french, spanish, italian and portugese anyway. The germanic folk, germans, english, dutch and scandinavians, could all be made to use german. How good is your latin or german. latinum in scolam studeras oder haben Sie vielleicht sogar Deutsch gelernt?
49

Grahamski,

Falkirk 20/02/2009 09:23:39
58
"I seek not your permission"
No, but you certainly seek my money......
50

eamon,

20/02/2009 09:24:38
#52
Gaelic has been the language of the scots since they left Ireland to come to these shores.
51

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 20/02/2009 09:25:45
59

It's not just your money Grahamski. That is not a valid argument since there are things that my taxes go toward that I don't recieve benefit from.

If you want to argue symatics on tax payers cash, go ahead but it's a loser straight away.
52

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 20/02/2009 09:26:47
Eamon

Aye, just playing devils advocate, what about the peoples that were here before the Irish landed? The picts for example?
53

Stan Butler,

20/02/2009 09:27:41

No mention of the 'Scots language'.

Is it deid?

Or just no very weel?

I'd like tae ken.

54

eamon,

20/02/2009 09:31:10
#59
To pay for the wrongs done in the past maybe! I contribute every bit as much as you do, maybe more, and so have as much right to benefit as you do. In reality, we dont need 'your' money, we just have to make sure that our money is spent wisely, and not on illegal wars or on weapons of mass destruction.
55

Grahamski,

Falkirk 20/02/2009 09:31:11
61
Agreed. But a wee bit thanks from the gaelic minority to the majority who fund them wouldn't go amiss....
56

Zugspitze,

20/02/2009 09:31:52
Out of interest, where your children privately schooled? There are not many state funded primaries that teach any language to very young primary students that I am aware of. This is how a single lesson on Gaelic a week in these type of schools would benefit everyone.

Btw, We are not French and have no cultural ties to France, I am assuming you do as THAT is the language you chose for your children and for you it is apparently about gaelic not being part of your cultural heritage.
I actually find teaching French to small children in a Scottish primary school rather peculiar. If it is simply to teach a useful language then German, Spanish or English (or even Mandarin)would be most useful. Or is it more a case of the reputation French has as being a "higher class" of language.
What a shame that so many people have such a hatred of the Gaelic language (and in a great many ways, Scotland and her history all together!)


57

Grahamski,

Falkirk 20/02/2009 09:32:54
64
Whose wrongs? I owe you nothing and equally if I wanted to teach my children Klingon I wouldn't expect your taxes to pay for it. Why should you expect my taxes to indulge your hobbies?
58

Grahamski,

Falkirk 20/02/2009 09:36:53
66
My kids were educated in state schools in Falkirk. I would prefer they learned a language like French rather than gaelic not because French is intrinsically 'higher' but there are considerably more than 60,000 French speakers in the world....
Oh and I hate to be a pedant but I think you'll find that there are considerable cultural ties between France and Scotland...
59

Truely English,

20/02/2009 09:38:31
We all speak English in Britain and it is clear no other language is needed or required.
English keeps us united as a nation; other languages only speed up fragmentation of the Kingdom which we can do without.

The Scots have always been the most enthuastic Britishers you can find, as they gain so much out of this great Union of countries that make up Britain.

60

eamon,

20/02/2009 09:41:22
#62

A very valid point you make, as usual. Modern Gaelic and Irish have, as you, many similarities( about 85-90 percent of the vocabulary is the same), but also some differences. Lots of these differences can be traced to being similar to ancient welsh words. The word Aber in welsh, Obar in gaelic, for example. Or beinn for mountain is fenn (fell in the cumbric version). It is possible that ancient gaeic and pictish blended, only to be superceded by written middle Irish in the 12 century. The gaelic bible, written in Perthshire and Stirlingshire gaelic, has some very noticable examples of this, or so i am told as I dont really spend much time reading it.
61

Elethiomel,

Edinburgh 20/02/2009 09:45:20
#40 Erm no it won't, unless a lot of bizzarre countries suddenly join "the Western world", whatever you mean by that. Spanish used to be far more widely used than it is now. Just as a side note I wonder how Catalan is doing.

Anyway it strikes me that quite a lot is being done to protect Gaelic. I think it's importance, even in the past, is often a bit over stated but that doesn't mean it's irrelevant now. AS long as people enjoy it and want to use it some money should be spent on developing it. I can only speak a couple of words but always enjoy listening to it being sung and definitely see it as part of my heritage (My granny could speak it, but the Doric was more widely used in her part of the highlands).

It's worth remembering though that it was only ever a minority language, we have quite enough national myths surrounding us already without perpetuating the "Gaelic is the real language of the Scots." nonsense.
62

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 20/02/2009 09:46:02
65

Thanks! ;-)

My parents and grandparents who were belted for speaking Gaelic at school also thank you.
63

eamon,

20/02/2009 09:51:01
67 grahamski

If you desire to teach klingon to your kids, be my guest. Apply for funding, reach the accepted minimum intake level for starting a class, locate a teacher and away you go! I dont expect your taxes for anything. Lots of my taxes are spent on things I dont care for, painting from the duke of sutherland for example.

69 truely a pest

Idiot.
64

Zugspitze,

20/02/2009 09:52:17
Yes, I am aware of the ties. I am also aware of the amount of French speakers in the world. They are considerably less than Spanish, Mandarin, etc.
I sure it will be helpful for them when they go on holiday though.

My point is this, you said that Gaelic was irrelevant I assume because of the low numbers that speak it and also because the majority speak English as well. You also seem to find it irrelevant as it doesn't reflect what you believe is your cultural heritage. Seemingly French isn't either but that doesn't bother you.
I would say that a great many people in the world would find French irrelevant to their lives but yet it is still taught to small children in a country far away from where the language originated.
My only point here is that you live in Scotland as do your children. Whether your family ever spoke Gaelic or not really isn't the issue. The issue is that Gaelic is one of the last remaining languages still spoken with direct ties to historical Scotland and as such has a place in society. To dismiss it and call it irrelevant and instead choose a language from a culture you have no real ties with at all is really quite sad.
It comes down to choice and as we live in Scotland/Alba, we should ALL have a choice if we want to learn, read, watch television, converse etc in Gaelic. The funding must remain and the learning encouraged. A great many people are dead to their own cultures for various reason yet willingly choose another simply because it is more popular. I find that really depressing.
65

Grahamski,

Falkirk 20/02/2009 09:55:18
72
You're welcome.
Oh, and incidentally my parents and grandparents were belted for speaking their verancaular too...as I'm sure scousers and geordies were too
66

Iain Mac,

20/02/2009 10:00:51
Gaelic taxpayers have had nothing for their taxes until a decade or two ago. How much was spent trying to eradicate it?

Bilingualism is a huge asset to a nation. Even a country's own language as opposed to a global one like English, Spanish or Arabic is valuable. Gaelic was producing classical poetry centuries before English was even 'born'. The first great English poet, Chaucer, is closer to JK Rowling than he is to old Gaelic.

I do think the report is a bit on the pessimistic side. Our world today is different and no-one can say with certainty what will happen to languages. Gaelic with long overdue government support does seem to be turning the tide. Tha lan thide aice.
67

eamon,

20/02/2009 10:02:09
#72 Dave

Another good post. I shall do likewise. How rude of me.

Thank you grahamski for your taxes, they enable my culture to exist, and possibly in the future to thrive. How kind of you.
68

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 20/02/2009 10:03:24
75

If you want to raise a petition for reparations or to increase the profile of your parents and grandparents vernacular, please by all means do so and I will gladly give you the equivelant money from my taxes that has been spent on gaelic.

**bowing gracefully**
69

Grahamski,

Falkirk 20/02/2009 10:03:33
74
Of course you should have a choice. This has nothing to do with choice and everything to do with the gaelic lobby hoovering up a proportion of public funds disproportionate to their size.
70

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 20/02/2009 10:04:13
eamon

That wasn't so bad, was it? If anything, us Gaels should always remember our manners......
71

Iain Mac,

20/02/2009 10:05:19
Here's a sign of life in Gaelic!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Gaelic_punk

Another point, if taxes have to be spent on education, why not spend it on Gaelic medium. The GM kids have proven higher attainment and even speak better English as result, not to mention picking up French or Spanish better. Perhaps some of the Gaelic doomsayers and bigots should put their jealously and ignorance to one side and go and visit one of the Gaelic schools and units.
72

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 20/02/2009 10:06:32
79

I believe the Titans stand 5 feet tall but "hoovered" up £12.5 million from Scottish taxes alone (£50 mill total). Isn't that dispraportionate funding to size?

If you laid all the Gaelic speakers out end to end, at an average of 5'8" tall times 60,000 - that's a looooongggg way! ;-)
73

Iain Mac,

20/02/2009 10:07:31
#79 - public funds are gobbled up in many ways. Not least by the Westminster's govt's appetite for war. A few years ago, the BBC spent £10m - then the entire Gaelic budget - on ONE England world cup game.

AS others have mentioned, Gaelic taxpayers need services too in their and Scotland's mother tongue.
74

Stan Butler,

20/02/2009 10:09:24

What do all you Gaelic speakers think of the taxpayers' money spent on promoting the 'Scots language'?

Don't you think the money would be better spent on promoting Gaelic?

75

eamon,

20/02/2009 10:10:34
#80

Many thanks for keeping me right there. Going back to your pictish point. I would love to find out more with regards the language of the picts. Any tips, as you always seem to 'know your song well before you start singing'
76

Stan Butler,

20/02/2009 10:11:09
#83 Iain Mac

Gaelic isn't Scotland's mother tongue and it doesn't help your cause by claiming that it is.
77

Steve Foley,

20/02/2009 10:13:42
Let it die! It is part of the "Crawford's Tartan Shortbread" and "Granny's Heilan Hame" image that Scotland needs to ditch in the 21st Century.

I sincerely hope that Scotland does not copy the Irish Republic or Wales and have Official Forms, Traffic Signs etc in both English, as used by the vast majority of the population, and Gaelic used only by a small minority of "Teuchters".
78

Iain Galbraith,

Argyll 20/02/2009 10:14:06
When Gaelic and Scots lobbies start pointlessly fighting against each other then the enemies are left smiling.
There is a much bigger battle to be won.
What the Scots language lobby needs is a good agent provocateur to expose the futilty of the arguments against it, in much the same way that we in the Gaelic lobby have Rufus.
79

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 20/02/2009 10:14:32
Stan

Know the history of King Kenenth MacAlpine?

As it happens, happy to promote any of Scotlands "tongues" and indeed Englands, NIrelands and Welsh too.

It's all good.
80

Zugspitze,

20/02/2009 10:15:01
79
Hoovering up a proportion of public funds?

As has been posted here a great many times so I will do so just the once, there are a multitude of things that are paid for by the government that I do not want and think are trivial, useless and a waste of money. Sadly, I cannot stop them so I simply have to sit back and allow it to happen with my taxes (as do you)!

If the gaelic lobby is successful and receives a decent amount of money to carry on programs that benefit me, my family, the gaelic community and Scotland as a whole then I feel perhaps I am getting something back for a change.

It's all swings and roundabouts and getting worked up because a small amount is being spent on Gaelic (and be aware, it isn't much at all in the whole scheme of things) is quite silly. Perhaps take a look at where the REAL drain on public finances are. That is the REAL eye-opener.
Thanks for this debate. As I spend most of my time with people who are positive about Gaelic, it has been interesting to see the perspective of someone (quite a lot of people actually who have posted) who don't really understand about the Gaelic community.
81

eamon,

20/02/2009 10:15:01
#84 stan

Not at all, promoting scots is every bit as important. Not only should more money be used for gaelic, but for scots as well. Money could be diverted from illegal wars to pay for them both.

#83 Iain

Well said on all posts.
82

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 20/02/2009 10:16:06
eamon

A good start is King Kenenth MacAlpine then work back. They certainly were a mysterious peoples....
83

drunken proffet,

Tassy 20/02/2009 10:17:48
Come on fellows, the only reason to learn Gaelic is to insult the tourists in the pub. I would suggest that you watch how you go, on the other hand, you may deserve everything you get. See these Chinese, pretty multi lingual.
84

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 20/02/2009 10:19:18
93

Nope, happy to insult them in English too.......
85

eamon,

20/02/2009 10:21:42
stan

Galic IS the mother tongue of scots. There are other languages that are native to our country, Pictish for example, but to claim scots ancestry is to be decended from the people who came over from Ireland many centuries ago, bringing gaelic as their language.
86

as13,

Sunderland 20/02/2009 10:22:52
Does 'Truly English' post on here purely to try an encite a response? I am guessing so, by the fact that everyone seems to ingore his/her posts!

(except me of course....who has fallen head first...)

Anyway....my take on this whole thing is as follows - like it or not, as a result of our past, English is now the 1st language of Scotland and there is very little that could be done to reverse that now. That said, I see no wrong in offering Scot's or Gaelic as an option at school....I'm sure I'd rather have done that than the french and german I did! (although the french came in handy at Eurodisney!)
87

Lianachan,

Highlands 20/02/2009 10:25:47
I wish more was known about Pictish. As for Gaelic, it's a hugely imporant part (defining, even) of the history and culture of the Highlands & Islands. It must be protected, and it's growth must be encouraged.

It's good that Scots is finally being taken seriously, too. As an important part of the history and culture of other parts of Scotland, it should also be protected and encouraged.
88

Zugspitze,

20/02/2009 10:27:38
96

Well put as13! The comment about Eurodisney made me laugh.
89

Conan the Librarian™,

20/02/2009 10:28:16
I'm reminded of the wee boy in Dundee who was belted in the morning for speaking Scots in the classroom, and then again in the afternoon for writing about the "Toe Bridge Disaster".

This website is terrible, I hope *this* post gets through.
90

Zugspitze,

20/02/2009 10:30:59
87

If you wish to make serious points, perhaps not insulting people that you have no clue about isn't the best way to get people to listen to you.

Signed,
A. Teuchter
91

eamon,

20/02/2009 10:31:25
#94 dave

Sometimes i have to stop speaking gaelic to enable me to insult them. Really breaks the stride. Maybe if these tourists leared a bit of gaelic too then it would make life easier for all. As to the picts, it would surprise us if we knew how much of their language has been blended into gaelic, and irish, i think. These people lived there too before the gael arrived. Caelic art seems to have been hugely influenced by it, why not the language too. In the old books about the history of irish, The original language of the gael, not sure its name at the moment, went through a massive change about 2000ya, maybe this was it blending with a form of pictish to create a hybrid of the 2.
92

im brian and so is my wife,

edinburgh 20/02/2009 10:34:47
#14 yes you also have to fork out to view chanel 5 on a sky system,also some progs on freeview ,rm wants paying so you can see it on your sky box
yet free to pick up with freeview
boy i bet he gave lessons to gordon brown
93

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 20/02/2009 10:39:36
eamon 101

Aye, my kind of feeling too. From what I can gather about the Picts, theres no way they would allow themselves to be "absorbed" without some sort of benefit, or reminder of themselves.

It's that or they were so out numbered and hated the Gaels so much, they refused to give an inch (the secret of Heather Ale etc?). However, King MacAlpine is credited in "uniting" the Picts and Gaels so I reckon there was much cultural infusing from both sides.
94

Lianachan,

Highlands 20/02/2009 10:40:29
#101

The "invasion" of the Gael was mostly a cultural one, rather than a replacement of actual people. There are some suspected Pictish loanwords in Gaelic, but the Pictish influence on the language appears to be minimal. The main reason for the one-sided "merging" (and the language shift itself) is that Gaelic was the language of the church that was being spread (mostly) by Irish/Gael saints into "Pictish" areas. What is more evident is the Pictish influence on art. Again, a lot of this was driven by religion.
95

Shug,

20/02/2009 10:42:41
Eamon

You are having a laugh. Who are the Scots? The mob called the Scots that came over from Ireland have got very little relevance to the make up of today's population. You are Scottish if you are born here. Matters not which line you are descended from. Originally the natives of Scotland came from the south (England!!), moving north as the ice retreated. Romans, Vikings, Britons, Scots etc etc etc visited, stayed, conquered, bred......As we currently stand Gaelic is of little relevance and apart from a brief period of history has never been the dominant language. It should be maintained/encouraged but not forced down peoples throats. Wales is a joke. Forcing the language on kids is such an insular thing to do. Knowing more than one language is good for the IQ I grant you but the fact that the welsh speaking kid I have met have a standard of English about 3-4 years behind their UK contemparies is a disgrace. We live in the same country and English is our first language.
96

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 20/02/2009 10:45:52
105

Nobody is forcing anybody to do anything.

As it happens, those that are in Gaelic Medium in Scotland have a higher standard of Enlgish than thier English Medium counterparts.

Perhaps your comment is more directed toward the Welsh themselves, than the language they speak?
97

eamon,

göttingen 20/02/2009 10:47:38
#93 as13

if you ignore him he usually goes away.
#100 Zugspitze
I really have to admire not only your well thought out posts, but also the way you can hold back your anger. Whats your secret, or it as Dave says, we gaels must always remember our manners.

Lianachan
not just the highlands and isles, but Galloway too, and indeed most of Scotland

99 conan
I enjoyed that, very good.
98

Lianachan,

Highlands 20/02/2009 10:53:22
#107 "not just the highlands and isles, but Galloway too, and indeed most of Scotland"

Aye, I know (I know quite a lot about the history of language in Scotland) - I'm just mainly concerned with the part of the country that I've always called home.

:-)

99

radge dug,

Dun Eideann 20/02/2009 10:59:42
Some info on children and bilingualism:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/6382285.stm

Suas leis a' Ghaidlig.
100

eamon,

20/02/2009 11:01:03
#105 Shug
Not having a laugh, its fact. Anybody in Scotland with the prefix Mac is from gaelic stock, as indeed are many others such as Cowan or Gillespie. Granted there are other cultures in our great land, but gaelic is the one os the scots part, the part chosen as our countries name. And if you check all my posts, I never said scottish, rather scots. There is a difference.

104 Lianachan

I agree that in some areas it probably was cultural, in Argyll it was probably population. But if the language had blended with a pictish style language in ireland, its possible the transition from our pictish to gaelic wouldnt have been difficult.
101

radge dug,

20/02/2009 11:03:11
#106 - true, see above article. Numerous reports in Scotland and Wales indicate better general language and learning abilities amonsgst bilingual kids.

It's a waste of taxpayers money NOT to give them the advantages of 2 or 3 languages.

Most immigrants here can speak 2 or 3 languages and that is what employers want. Even the Gaelic 'market' is growing and hundreds are employed in Gaelic.

As a point, i wonder how many of the 'anti-Gaels' here can speak another language? Are they arguing that ignorance is a virtue?!
102

eamon,

20/02/2009 11:05:03
#108 Lianachan

I am too, and I can see from your posts you are well learned on the subject, and it matters to you. But some others on here are not so wise as yourself and i am using this as an opportunity to educate them. Sorry if i sounded like i was trying to teach you what you already know. It matters to me too, but these people wind me up, but as Dave says, we need to keep our manners.
103

radge dug,

20/02/2009 11:06:03
#110 - aye, and names like Dunn, Don, Glass, Bowie, Rintoul, Douglas, Taggart and hundreds more are Gaelic. Guess if you have the great advantage of only knowing English, one wouldn't know this.

Same goes for our placenames. I can see 'Hazeltree' hill from my window - better know as Calton Hill or Cnoc a' Challtainn as it once was. But then again, i'm sure there was some govt decree funded by taxpayers that 'forced' this Gaelic name on an Edinburgh hill sometime back in the 9th C.
104

Lianachan,

Highlands 20/02/2009 11:07:45
#110

Pictish and Gaelic (Irish) are down different legs of the same linguistic pair of trousers. They became distinct and evolved in different ways a long time before the kind of periods we're talking about here. The "Pictish style language" you mention in Ireland is, ultimately, Gaelic. The transition from Pictish to Gaelic couldn't have been vastly hard, as it was done so completely. However, the languages were not mutually intelligable (Culumba needed a translator when visiting Pictish King Brude in Inverness) and probably showed little sign of their common ancestry.

Of course, all mention of Pictish is subject to the usual disclaimers/assumptions - that 1) it really did exist and 2) it was a Brythonic Celtic language.
105

radge dug,

20/02/2009 11:10:51
#86 - Stan, go and read some history. Gaelic IS the Scottish mother tongue. It was known as 'Scottice' or 'Scottish' until the 1600s when due to Anglicisation, 'Inglish' became known as 'Scots' and 'Scottish' as 'Errse' or Gaelic. Gaelic was the language of the tribe Scotti and was the language of Alba when it became a nation.

It may no longer be the language of all Scots but it has been continuely spoken here as a community tongue for almost 2000 years. English is a newcomer.
106

Lianachan,

Highlands 20/02/2009 11:11:10
#112 Indeed. Please measure my post at #114 in the same way.
107

eamon,

20/02/2009 11:12:52
111 radge

Sometimes people think its easier to try to bring the world down to their level than increase their own standing within it. My daughter could speak 3 languages fluently at 3. She is now 5 and is asking for more. She comes hope speaking french, leaving us all baffled, and even wants to find out about Japanese as one of her friends is half japanese. Only yesterday she came in with this huge story about the life of a subaru. I thought it was a story about a car, but no, it seems its a type of bird. I would post in gaelic , but my spelling is terrible. A product of not having it in school. My 7 year old son is helping me with it though.
108

Country lad, oo aarh!,

Glendale 20/02/2009 11:18:29
Those of us who live in the Highland and Islands would disagree that Gaelic is "endangered" - we use it or at least hear it used regularly. From reading the poor standard of English spelling and grammar employed by some of the posters here, I'd say that the English language would appear to be "endangered"!
109

Scottish Canadian,

ottawa canada 20/02/2009 11:19:07

We have a small pocket of Gaelic-speakers in Nova Scotia who would be interested in knowing what specific steps are being taken by the Scottish government to protect the original language of the Scots. Maybe we can lobby the Canadian Government to follow suit?
110

Stan Butler,

20/02/2009 11:19:50
#115 radge dug

The phrase 'Scottish mother tongue' is meaningless.

A number of languages have been spoken throughout history in the territory that is now called Scotland.

Scots Gaelic is only one of them.

To claim that one is superior to any other is historical and linguistic nonsense.
111

greenhill,

20/02/2009 13:32:17
Away ye go yah havering heechters.

Spending money keeping this language artificially alive to suit the needs of pseuds with a romantic view of culture is heavily influenced by a guilt/blame ridden view of History.

This stupidity is taking away resources from essential education for the majority.
112

Observer,,

Glasgow 20/02/2009 13:33:18
How can Gaelic be endangered when there is so much investment placed in it ? As it is clearly receiving the help from the govt it needs to survive, I suggest this story has just been placed to cause a ding-dong between posters, and it has succeeded. Personally I am not opposed to support for the Gaelic language, but it is not my language, and it never will be. That does not make me any less Scottish.
113

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 20/02/2009 13:40:27
Stan

You describe Scotland as a "territory".

What exactly is Scotland a territory of?
114

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 20/02/2009 13:42:29
114

Eh? Prove that investing into Gaelic Medium Education is taking away from education of the "majority".
115

,

20/02/2009 13:43:02
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
116

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 20/02/2009 13:45:22
Vincent

I doubt that you can assert that with any authority, unless you are Stan of course?

However, now that you have bailed Stan out, the real asnwer will never be given.
117

Lianachan,

Highlands 20/02/2009 13:47:19
I hate it when the mods just delete posts completely, instead of just their contents. Throws everything out of whack.
118

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 20/02/2009 13:48:51
Lianachan

It's the rockers that P me off!
119

,

20/02/2009 13:55:00
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
120

Lianachan,

Highlands 20/02/2009 13:55:43
Ah come on now, Dave - they at least had better music.
121

eamon,

20/02/2009 13:55:48
119 Dave

I doubt the real answer would have been given anyway as this guy only posts to annoy others. He never reads any replies to his post, and has no knowledge of the subject in question. I had a post ready for him earlier before the comments section crashed. Maybe its just as well it wasnt sent, considering our previous comments on manners. This other fellow vincent at least thinks before he comments.
122

Lianachan,

Highlands 20/02/2009 13:57:16
#122

I love it when non-Gaelic speakers call their house "Taigh Beag", thinking it must mean "Small House". Literally, I suppose it does, but it's only ever used in Gaelic to mean "toilet".

:-)
123

,

20/02/2009 13:59:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
124

greenhill,

20/02/2009 14:00:24
RE Dave From Barra,Western Isles 20/02/2009 13:42:29

Ha ! It is a language that cannot stand on it's own two feet and is spoken by a minority for whom it is essential to speak English .What a complete and utter waste of resources and human effort. It should be left to die a natural death.

The only spending required would be at a high academic level just as for ancient dead languages.

Cultures and languages come and go.That is natural reality.We are culture bearing creatures but that does not mean to say we have to bear the supposed language or culture of our ancestors.

What a bunch of pseuds and fakesters.
125

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 20/02/2009 14:00:46
eamon

Yes, vincent is a suitabley nice fellow, I reckon he has a touch o the Gaels about him!

lianachan, point taken and aye, always a wry smile about the Taigh Beag-ers from me too!
126

,

20/02/2009 14:01:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
127

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 20/02/2009 14:02:00
greenhill

What culture do you bear? Who is "we" by the way?
128

,

20/02/2009 14:03:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
129

eamon,

20/02/2009 14:10:14
129 vincent

If you had read my post you would have seen i was talking about some other idiot called stan. I spoke rather well of you, maybe look at it again, its at 124.

lianachan

There was a taigh beag near me when I was growing up. Always a temptation if caught short on the way home from the bar.
130

Geoff,

sa 20/02/2009 14:15:39
Haven't had a chance to read any of the above posts -rushing of to the 'Berg'(from the Afrikaans for Mountain) Languages are an integral part of our sense of place,of being and of history and as such worthy of preservation. But in practical terms we should all-the whole world-speak English. English is a rich and vibrant Language that has drawn and still draws further from cultures worldwide. If you want to preserve languages such as Gaelic it is going to have to be a concious and ongoing act of pure love.
And hardwork.
Alles van die Beste mense!
131

,

20/02/2009 14:15:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
132

greenhill,

20/02/2009 14:17:55
Dave From Barra,Western Isles 20/02/2009 14:02:00

We means the human race : any group or society.
133

Rosbrog,

ireland 20/02/2009 14:19:14
i have to laugh at the anti-gaidhlig brigade who speak so passionately against the language. They are let down by the quite breathtaking ignorance of any facts on the matter. I would be interested to hear what other people think on the following points.
1) Gaidhlig was the original language of the scotti and despite mention of the language really beginning to take over at the end of the roman empire (400ad)that some analysts believe that it has been around a lot longer than that, not just in pockets arriving from ireland since the start of the first millenium. I have read theories relating to the fact that gaighlig may have existed in scotland a lot longer, claiming that the dividing line between gaighlig and brythonic or pictish speaking people was up the west coast of scotland and not that an invading people came from ireland and supplanted the native people of the area. I feel that an emphasis on this theory is to somehow bracket gaighlig as 'foreign' to scotland as was started from the 16th century onwards, ie the use of the term 'eerse'. I spelt that wrong because it wouldn't let me post it, carzy. In fact if any movement of people took place around the dal riada region, i have read that archeological evidence suggests that if anything the movement of people and culture was from scot to ire and not vice versa, the majority of the evidence in support of the opposite is based on folklore and with all due respect a lot of this we know to be exactly that mythical, giants fighting etc etc. I have read a fair amount on the dal riada 'theory' of migration into scotland and i fail to see any evidence to prove this was the case, if anyone has any facts (or as close as poosible to facts as we are dealing with the dark ages) on the matter then i would love to hear them.
2)I admire what the welsh have done to rejuvinate their language and i am curious as to how they have been so successful in it because in ireland it is compulsory and as a secondary teacher here i can ho
134

Rosbrog,

ireland 20/02/2009 14:19:51

2)I admire what the welsh have done to rejuvinate their language and i am curious as to how they have been so successful in it because in ireland it is compulsory and as a secondary teacher here i can honestly say it is despised by many of the kids who learn it and it doesn't seem to have helped boost numbers at all despite an effective 'lip service' in the media etc. I would suggest immersion in the language at primary school and then optional beyond would be the best way ahead.
3) Why isn't BBC Alba on freeview? I heard that they had put a target viewing figure on the channel to ensure its continual and if this is the case and its not available to the whole country then it is a disgrace. Then again radio nan gaidheal is not available to people around the borders so no surprise there then.
4) I know the language is strongest and certinly did originate in the west and north but as it spread its evident around a lot of scotland, even in the counties on the border with england. In fact of the 34 counties of scotland i can only see orkney and shetland without any gaidglig influence. That being said there is a fine balance between encouraging people and forcing it down their throats. However in scotland we are light years away from forcing it down peoples throats and that is what makes the people with a vitriolic hatred against the idea of it so laughable.
135

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 20/02/2009 14:20:09
greenhill

Seems I'm part of that group and I embrace Gaelic culture as my choice.

What culture do you bear?
136

Geoff,

sa 20/02/2009 14:20:41
127 Greenhill-a little harsh perhaps?
137

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 20/02/2009 14:25:20
Hows and Apartheid and eradication of things non Western World going in SA Geoff?
138

eamon,

20/02/2009 14:29:57
Rosborg

Very interesting post. Of course there would have been a mutual migration of people. Vast majority of the ancient gael lived on the coast, so to travel by boat would have been natural to them. These people would have seen no difference between Ireland and Scotland, or indeed west Wales, where an ancient form of gaelic was once widely used.
139

Geoff,

sa 20/02/2009 14:34:10
Hi Dave-the eradfication process is in full swing here Dave but the guys have no perspective. I have told them that for example, the words England and London derive from the languages of really brutal colonialists but the Brits(or brits if u will) have retained them notwithstanding said brutality. Also they have taken the Victoria out of "Victoria Embankment" in durba! Ungrateful B******! Seriously though I welcome the rectifying of past imbalances but in purely practical terms, when you do away with "Smith" streets for eg and replace them with Yengwa Masabalala Avenue etc. Well i ask u. Must fly-have a good one!

Nkosi Sikelele iAfrica!
140

Nìall,

Dùn Éideann 20/02/2009 14:37:27
"no one in Edinburgh ever spoke Gaelic!"

Perhaps Edinburgh was never a majority Gaelic-speaking area, but I assure you that there have been Gaels here and near hear for about 1000 years, and that is well attested by various placenames, with places like "Dalry" and "Dalkeith" bearing original names coined in Gaelic, and various streets and areas taking on the names of the home regions of Highlanders who settled there, and/or taking the names of councillors of Highland stock.

During the Clearances, Edinburgh picked up a lot of Gaels too, but not as many as Glasgow.

It's an ebb and flow here, but Edinburgh will never be without its Gaels.
141

greenhill,

20/02/2009 14:37:55
RE Dave From Barra,Western Isles 20/02/2009 14:20:09

Fine that is your choice but demanding dissproportionate resources for a practically dead language is not on.

What culture do you bear ?: Too wide and varied to fit in such a small space and if you think about it the same goes for you.In fact my culture owes much more to the ancient Greeks than primative maniacs who covered themselves in tatoos and went head hunting.
142

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 20/02/2009 14:42:00
144

Who are these primitive maniacs who covered themselves in tatoos and went head hunting you speak of? Sounds like ancient Spartans to me.....

Nice answer by the way, very non commital.
143

eamon,

20/02/2009 14:43:34
Geoff

Why not have both. Why does it have to be either. It seems we really find it dificult as a species to find balance.
144

Barney Thomson,

Reading 20/02/2009 14:49:19
Pictish - W. A. Cummins in "The Lost Language of the Picts" (2001 by The Pinkfoot Press) tries to unravel what this language may have been like. From the very limited sources available, he finds affinities with both the Gaelic and Welsh strains of Celtic and proposes that the languages of the Scots and Picts may not have been all that different. Perhaps they were closer than Scots and English, another two languages deriving from a common ancient root.
145

Masterpiece,

20/02/2009 14:57:01
147

I learned Gaelic because I wanted to be much more Scottish than I was and feel it was really worth the effort.

I am so pleased to see that there is information available about Pictish as I understood it was very close to Gaelic.
146

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 20/02/2009 14:58:04
Masterpiece

Sshhh! Mr Thomson is reading....
147

greenhill,

20/02/2009 14:59:39
RE Dave From Barra,Western Isles 20/02/2009 14:42:00

I meant what I said. To be committed to answering that question fully would end up with several volumes.I just could not answer it in the simple way you did.

For me to be "culture bearing" is to be a transformative individual.


148

Stan Butler,

20/02/2009 15:00:53
#143 Nìall

'but I assure you that there have been Gaels here and near hear for about 1000 years, and that is well attested by various placenames'


The place name evidence cited in support of the claim for the widespread use of Scottish Gaelic is misplaced.

Most of those names are derived from the ancestor of the Welsh language which was spoken over a large part of what is now called Scotland before Scots Gaelic arrived here.

149

Masterpiece,

20/02/2009 15:01:13
When are we going to get calculations for all the money spent on English medium education, the Law, the health service, etc.

If the Scottish Government was to take away all the subsidy paid to the English language in Scotland it would only take a small number of years to wither and die.
150

,

20/02/2009 15:01:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
151

Masterpiece,

20/02/2009 15:08:16
Since Gaelic is seen as an endangered language, surely one of the first things that needs to be done to change this whole situation is to locate the experts worldwide who can help us progress from one of endangered to one of health.

Does anyone have suggestions as to where we can find such people and quickly.
152

Barney Thomson,

Reading 20/02/2009 15:09:45
Dave

How many wheels on your barra?
153

eamon,

göttingen 20/02/2009 15:10:48
Oh no stan has woken up. Never mind, he never reads other peoples posts anyway. If he did he would know we already know this, and that the language of these people was very similar to gaelic in structure and certain vocabulary. What was the word in cumbric (as this language was called) for beinn, it was penn and The word for obar was aber. As Lianachan so eloquently put it, these languages were like different legs of the same trouser.
154

eamon,

20/02/2009 15:17:02
#154 masterpiece.

The Israeli people now speak hebrew as a language, even though it was dead for hundreds of years. It was far further down the road of extinction that gaelic, but today it is thriving. Finlay Mac Leod, a well know gaelic expert, has a really wonderful method for teaching gaelic, similar to how the israelis did it, called total immersion. Really works too, its how my wife is learning
155

Pilrig.,

Livingston 20/02/2009 15:21:45
14 - one world , one lanaguage , one leader
156

Ewan Randall,

20/02/2009 15:22:12
As Gaelic is a part of our historical and cultural heritage why do we not se this reflected in the education of our children?

Why is it our children learn about peoples in other countries being persecuted for being who they are without the comparison of their own people, and culture, with language being a part of that discussion?

Should we be trying to re-integrate Gaelic onto society as a whole using Wales as an example of good practice?

Has Sectarianism played its role in stopping this early Scottish language from redeveloping?

Why is it that we can’t extend Gaelic programming, be it television or radio, on to freeview?
157

,

20/02/2009 15:24:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
158

Pilrig.,

Livingston 20/02/2009 15:25:30
144 - the culture of Oxbridge and such places.
159

Stan Butler,

20/02/2009 15:29:36
#156 eamon

Brythonic Celtic was spoken in what is now Scotland before Scots Gaelic arrived here.

The place names put forward as evidence of the extent of Scots Gaelic come from Brythonic Celtic not Scots Gaelic.

Brythonic Celtic and Scots Gaelic arrived here at different tines, from different places and were brought by different peoples.

Apart from those minor differences they have some similarities.
160

Lianachan,

Highlands 20/02/2009 15:30:10
#147 (and anybody interested in Pictish)

Kathryn Forsyth's "Language In Pictland" is an excellent book, which is free to download online. Google it!
161

bill-alba,

fife 20/02/2009 15:34:10
I am (slowly) learning gaelic and welcome the meagre money being spent on it..#144 where do you get "dissproportionate resources" from?? there is absolutely no reason why we can't have gaelic as a first language with english as a second one..all the north europeans speak excellent english as well as their native language.. I note that the anti gaelic comments are from the usual suspects - treachourous british and vichy scots..
162

ardri76@hotmail.com,

Dùn Èideann 20/02/2009 15:36:03
In response to . Grahamski, Falkirk who goes on about money being spent on bbc alba and other Gaelic programmes ...he should realise that the quality and content is far better than most of the rubbish on TV. programmes such as Eorpa and Meadhanan Gàidhlig prove what good home grown tele is all about, which has appeal across the board.

Responding to AC,Melbourne Regarding the attitude of most scots to gaelic . He doesn’t realise that it is as much part of Edinburgh mans heritage as it is those from Barra and Lewis. If he applies his deranged logic, thent most apathetic Scots had dilike for gaelic would then apply to anyone who wasn’t a highlander shouldn’t wear a kilt because that style of dress wasn’t synonyms with lowland culture.
3.Rosbrog,ireland who claims he was a teacher. Your logic is utterly flawed, you claim irish kids hate learning irish and don’t want it rammed down their throats , if we followed that thought pattern, kids would also not want to learn maths or anything at school ....Kids are kids they would rather be playing footie or playing video games. I now realise why you left teaching. and to further the point such is the demand for not only having Irish compulsory in school but the number of gaelscoils( exclusively gaelic medium schools) that the irish government is unable to keep up with demand for those who want to send their children to these schools. Why and we scots should take note because bilingual students do better . unfortunately this monolingual society of ours see English as the only appropriate form of sophisticated communication!
What would be better, for the survival and growth of the language would be greater co operation between gaelic speakers in ireland and scotland there by maximising the resources and relevance of the language
163

Stan Butler,

20/02/2009 15:39:19
#116 Dave From Barra

'You describe Scotland as a "territory".'

No I don't.

What I said was 'A number of languages have been spoken throughout history in the territory that is now called Scotland.'

The point is that when the languages I was referring to were being spoken here the enity/country/nation/area of land we NOW call Scotland didn't exist.

Capisce?

164

eamon,

20/02/2009 15:46:09
stan

again I refer you to past posts. I KNOW these are brythonic words incorperated into gaelic. I used them as an example of this earlier. My point was that these languages were very similar, in some areas even mutually understandable. I am also aware that gaelic came to most of Scotland AFTER these languages were already established. My point is that its the scots who brought gaelic here, and if you want to claim scots ancestry then gaelic is your ancestral language. If you claim to be pictish then it would be a pictish language. If you claim your language is english then you have english ancestry.
165

eamon,

20/02/2009 15:49:49
stan again.

The area of land we call Scotland did exist. otherwise they would all have had wet feet at least. It wasnt called Scotland is true, in gaelic it still isnt, it was called Scotland by the germanic english who named it after the dominant tribe, the scots, who spoke gaelic. comprehende, verstanden
166

Lianachan,

Highlands 20/02/2009 15:50:31
#162

"Brythonic Celtic was spoken in what is now Scotland before Scots Gaelic arrived here"

I assume "here" means what is now modern Scotland. It would be better to say "Brythonic Celtic languages", but you're broadly correct.

"The place names put forward as evidence of the extent of Scots Gaelic come from Brythonic Celtic not Scots Gaelic"

That seems contradictory - what exactly do you mean? That supposed Gaelic elements in some placenames are actually Cumbric/Pictish/etc.. ?

"Brythonic Celtic and Scots Gaelic arrived here at different tines, from different places and were brought by different peoples"

Again, apart from the point I made initially in this post, that's broadly correct - not seen anybody dispute that here.
167

ardri76@hotmail.com,

Dùn Èideann 20/02/2009 15:51:33
Ewan Randall hits the nail on the head re: sectarianism and attitudes to Gaelic culture ..you need to go back first to Walter scot the southern sycophant who rewrote Scottish history by airbrushing the Gaels from history ...Read the Isles by Norman Davies for an excellent account of the warped Victorian & Georgian attitudes who saw their British imperial linage emanating from the Romans and their comparable cultures of conquest while omitting the vast rich BRITISH Celtic culture which was deeper and more relevant than the Italian invaders brief stay on the island.. But i digress....sectarian attitudes to Gaelic stems from its original perception that it was backward and only relevant of the catholic /irish persuasion...until this disease of hate (sectarianism )is put to rest the language hasn’t a chance
168

JG,

Fife 20/02/2009 16:11:17
#59 Zugspitze
"I actually find teaching French to small children in a Scottish primary school rather peculiar. If it is simply to teach a useful language then German, Spanish or English (or even Mandarin)would be most useful"

I can't see how teaching German is more useful than French. Apart from Germany, where else is it spoken? French is the language of the UN, Spanish is becoming more widely spoken now, English is THE international language and China's recent emergence would certainly make Mandarin a useful one to learn, but GERMAN?
169

eamon,

20/02/2009 16:12:25
#170 ardri

Unfortunately i think you are correct. These anti gaels probably do gain their hatred of all things gaelic from an inbred hatred of ireland and all things irish. I certainly dont consider mysely to be irish, but I am aware I owe my ancestry there. Just as i owe africa my existence but dont claim to be african! How do you suggest we put this 'disease of hate' to rest, and where do we get a vet to do it!
170

Zugspitze,

20/02/2009 16:14:10
Greenhill

"What culture do you bear ?: Too wide and varied to fit in such a small space and if you think about it the same goes for you.In fact my culture owes much more to the ancient Greeks than primative maniacs who covered themselves in tatoos and went head hunting."

Oh dear, what would you like to tell us about your sophisticated ancestors who apparently never moved up the evolutionary and cultural ladder rung by rung to arrive as we are today but somehow sprang forth fully formed and completely civilized and quoting Plato?

Or was your reference to these supposed " tattooed maniacs" simply a last ditch effort to distance yourself from something you seem to have an irrational hatred of? Have you ever heard that if you have to resort to insults, you have lost the argument?

171

eamon,

20/02/2009 16:18:33
171 jg

A huge amount of european manufacturing, engineering, and large scale construction is done by german companies. The main men in these companies all speak perfect english ( i was once asked to explain in detail the 5 if clauses in the english language, to which i replied ????!!!??), but they really show a lot more enthusiasm for your point if you use german.
172

Zugspitze,

20/02/2009 16:23:19
JG

My remark was due to the large part of the manufacturing industry that is based in Germany and invests heavily in other countries. I sorry if you feel that I was wrong in my assumptions. My original point still stands, if one is to learn a language simply because it will be useful in modern society, I would not choose French. Of course I myself do not believe that one should only learn something that will be useful in commerce, that was someone elses suggestion.
Having said that, I speak a moderate amount of French that I made an effort to learn as an adult.

As the article and the discussion is about Gaelic, I think I will leave if there.
173

ardri76@hotmail.com,

Dùn Èideann 20/02/2009 16:28:52
#eamon

if i knew that i wouldn’t be sitting here typing on a Scotsman blog... but seriously ..I would first start by banning or relegating teams in the SPL whose stands are breeding grounds for hatred ...The Scottish government has not been tough on the top 2 teams and their fans.

those who seem themselves of the orange persuasion would do well and reading a book and see the contribution of Gaelic scholars in the reformed church. See link http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/61/297.html
in addition to many catholic/irish in Scotland who have refused to feel any connection to Scotland and look to their football clubs or have misty eyes across the irish sea, rather than feeling some bond to their true /adopted home i.e scotland. Those who shout sectarian songs in the terraces would be better off spending their season ticket money on Gaelic lessons.
174

eamon,

20/02/2009 16:34:18
175 Zugspitze

And a very well made point it was. It seems he is not only anti gaelic, but anti german as well. I wonder which wall in his bedroom the st george cross hangs on.
175

ardri76@hotmail.com,

20/02/2009 16:40:27
175 Zugspitze
Nonsense re: nationalism and hatred ...watch the link, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH_BCXEGQlA
Englishness does not equal dislike of everything not English /British . The BNP and their fascists friends want you to think that ....then if you apply that same logic the satire = anti Englishness..which it certainly doesn’t ...come on stick to the thread of the BLog
176

eamon,

20/02/2009 16:41:23
176 ardri

Agreed. Both are guilty of this, but i do find the blue half particularly hard to stomach, especially this famine song. My people have been here for 1500 years, am I supposed to go home too. But we should be thankful these people dont try to learn gaelic. They manage to be completely poisonous in english withits, and their limitations, imagine how they would abuse a proper language
177

ardri76@hotmail.com,

20/02/2009 16:41:31
sorry that was directed at eamon not zugspitze
178

JG,

Fife 20/02/2009 16:43:39
#175 Zugspitze
"As the article and the discussion is about Gaelic, I think I will leave if there."
And you are absolutely right! Just as a final point - and I also speak a bit of French - I suppose a decision has to made at an early age which other language to teach a child and that would have to be based on what would be potentially more useful. Perhaps it would be neither French nor German!

#177 eamon
I'm assuming your broadside is aimed at me?
If so, you are making a lot of ill-informed assumptions.
Explain how I'm anti-German.
Where have said anything against Gaelic?
Why would you assume I'm English?
What makes you think I'm male?
179

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

20/02/2009 16:52:15
26 Grahamski,Falkirk 20/02/2009 07:15:03
It's not the governemnt's job to save a language which is dying. ...
...If one school is denied a teacher or one hospital a nurse to pay for a glove puppet talking gaelic then we should all hang our heads in shame at our priorities being skewed to the point of perversion....

==================================
And yet earlier in the week you had not a single point of complaint about the scandal of Labour MP's fraudulent expenses.

We could probably run a few language courses for the costs of the equavilent of a former Labour Glasgow East MP.

As ever Grahamski 'Cringes' at Scottish Culture. Yet claims to love his country.

Your a pathetic wee unionist lapdog.
180

eamon,

20/02/2009 16:59:18
181 jg

You state that you cannot see how learning german is beneficial, both I an zugspitze gave you examples of this. No comment on that from you.
I didnt say you were english, there are plenty of st georges crosses in the houses of non english.
As to the gaelic part, do you agree that these apparent huge sums of money should be spent on teaching our kids the language of the scots?
Are you male? if not then i apologise. I believe kids should be taught lots of languages. It helps the brain, and throws new light on the ones we already know.

178 ardri

You are right there, maybe I am using the BNP as a weapon to make a point
181

Stan Butler,

20/02/2009 17:02:57
#176 ardri76@hotmail.com,

'Two sides of the same coin'

'One's as bad as the other'

It's amazing how these things balance themselves out.

A bit like the KKK and the NAACP or those who supported apartheid and the ANC.
182

Calum Crubag,

20/02/2009 17:05:09
More power to Gaelic. Some facts for the naysayers, Britnats and Scottish cringers here:

Gaelic WAS the tongue of the Scots, or the 'Scotti' as the Romans named them - recent evidence points to Argyll being settled at roughly the same time as Ireland by the Gael.

It was the language of all our kings until the bilingual King James IV. It was the language of our armies at Stirling and Bannockburn - 'Alabannaich' was the rallying slogan.

Children can easily learn 3 or 4 language before puberty, if given enough exposure. See work by Chomsky and other linguists. See recent work, quoted above by Anabella Sorace, chair of linguistics at Edinburgh - an Italian who urges parents to choose Gaelic medium education. GM Education is extreme value for money as it gives children fluency in 2 tongues and a grasp of a third. Teaching them English only is gross waste of the developing child's mind and therefore a waste of tax monies.

Gaels DO pay taxes too. Therefore as taxpayers and speakers of our oldest surviving tongue deserve services in Gaelic. Some would say they deserve reparations too for centuries of repression.

While native communities are in decline, Gaelic is now used in many more, and modern domains, than before - media, news, television, film, parliament, education (primary to tertiary) and even punk music in the Lowlands.

Gaelic personal names and placenames abound in southern Scotland too. Vincent - Calton DOES mean hazel hill in Gaelic and ties in with many other names and festivals in the area that are Gaelic in origin.

Suas leis a' Ghaidhlig - cleachd i no caill i.
183

Stan Butler,

20/02/2009 17:05:29

Most multi national companies now conduct their internal affairs in English (even the French ones).

The arguments in favour of there being a commercial advantage in learning a foreign language are a bit outdated.
184

ardri76@hotmail.com,

20/02/2009 17:05:52
sorry stan .what is the same side of the coin?
185

Calum Crubag,

20/02/2009 17:07:50
http://www.bilingualism-matters.org.uk/home.html
186

Calum Crubag,

20/02/2009 17:10:04
#186 - really? Why then do many Scots lose out in job market to other Europeans, Arabs and Asians who can speak 2 or 3 languages to a high standard?

Yes Stan - forward with ignorance! Arbeit macht frei.
187

ardri76@hotmail.com,

20/02/2009 17:12:37
the sad fact is the people on this blog are either Gaelic speakers / or sympathetic to the language or are the nay sayers and haters..unfortunately its the middle ground that need to be reading this and contributing to the survival of the language...
188

ardri76@hotmail.com,

20/02/2009 17:16:31
i second calums views and already stated the benefit earlier on in the blog of gael scoils in Ireland topping the league tables ..as a result the demand for places cant be met...bilingualism or trilingual’s is best...
189

eamon,

20/02/2009 17:16:33
stan

I work in the environment you talk about, and yes they do use english. But if you are able to use their language it puts you in pole position. My kids are multilingual. It is hard at first as they keep mixing up languages, e.g Papa caite bheil you, but it is worth it in the end.

calum crubag

well said as always.
190

Mallard,

Borders 20/02/2009 17:24:22
It is time the exponents of Gaelic learnt that it is not, never was and never will be the language of Scotland. Its culture is neither mine nor that of most people in the southern and eastern parts of the country from Shetland southwards.

The chattering classes who send their children to Gaelic medium schools in places like Edinburgh are a burden on the rest of us and are spoiling their offsprings' chances of learning useful subjects properly - it is unlikely that good maths or science teachers will want to work in a school for oddballs.
191

ardri76@hotmail.com,

20/02/2009 17:25:17
Scotland needs more secondary and tertiary gaelic institutions for the language to have any future hope. Its fine have having the language but if you can’t use it in a constructive way it will struggle . Look a the large number of speakers in west of Ireland who only job prospects were faming and fishing and the same in the western isles of scotland.
The growing number of Third level institutions in Ireland and the implementation of the language laws ( making the language more relevant in local government and semi sate bodies ) has ensured that Irish Gaelic will survive unfortunately Scotland has a long way to go before we can stop the rot. Fingers crossed if we work together
192

ardri76@hotmail.com,

20/02/2009 17:35:02
hello mallard..why are you full of hate....now sit down take a deep breath and when you take off your highland kilt on burns night...think while your naked from the waist down ask yourself what is Scottish culture...please .
Ok after you redress yourself in pair of tartan trews so you can feel more low landish realise you don’t want it but many do ..so more border rever foe You haven’t a clue ...again & again bilingual kids out do the monolingual peers..you can learn maths through Gaelic in fact better
193

JG,

Fife 20/02/2009 17:36:35
#183 eamon
Actually I never said learning German wasn't beneficial - it is if you plan to go and live in Germany or work for a German firm! Children can't learn them all so a choice has to be made about which one would generally be best. I believe children should have a completely broad education.
I don't know a lot of non-English people who display the St. George cross but maybe you do!
I think in these cash strapped times our money should be spent wisely. If there is a need to teach Gaelic then fine, but let's not be so wasteful. We shouldn't be doing this just to appear 'patriotic' or overtly 'Scottish'. I agree it would be a terrible shame to allow the language to die out, though!
194

Rosbrog,

20/02/2009 17:41:19
re: ardri76@hotmail.com

thanks for your comment. Just like to reiterate my own there. I am still a teacher, been teaching for nearly ten years, all in ireland. Ideally if it was fruitful in any way i'd say great perhaps even make gaidhlig compulsory all the way through to higher level. However i'd like to restate what i said the situatoion in ireland is good in one way, people are more aware of their history but that is a wider educational thing too i.e. history curriculum. But irish in secondary schools is seriously disliked by a huge number of pupils, incomparable even to maths, it is almost unique in the level the kids don't like it. I am well aware of the gaelscoil situation in ireland and that sounds to be like more of a useful tool, look how well the ardsgoil is doing in glasgow. I would love to see scotland prosper in this department, what i hate is the way the irish have pumped huge reources and made great efforts into redressing the balance and the scots have did very little, partly the issue of an independent nation vs even now, only a devolved parliament. Despite the 'lip service' students here gain, akin to learning french for example, i don't see the language really thriving here any more than in scotland believe it or not. Don't be fooled by the compulsory nature of the subject in schools, the signposts and the media. Thats if you have spent any time here.
What you will meet are a number of people who detested doing it in school or are able to muster up a 'how are you' or 'pass the milk' phrase.

My point was what has been done differently in wales to promote the language because, despite having only been there a few times and reading articles on the matter they seem to have thrived, with half a million fluent speakers. I'm sure they too put in a hell of a lot of funding and work but what have they did differently to make a success of it.
Just wanted to clarify my point a bit more. Thanks.
195

Prys,

Edinburgh 20/02/2009 17:54:11
I am a Welsh speaker who lives in Edinburgh and I have some interest in this subject. I have three points:

1) Wales is a different nation - our very sense of who we are is based around the language. I feel this is not the same in Scotland.

2) Its very difficult to keep a language alive

3) Welsh has been lucky throughout history.

I dont think it has anything to do with the language itself as both cousins of Welsh, Breton and Cornish, have almost dissapeared.


196

eamon,

20/02/2009 17:59:46
jg

just watch any home game at ibrox. Plenty on show. As i stated in my earlier posts, I dont want my kids to be educated in gaelic to be patriotic, but because its what we speak. Have done in my family for thousands of years. As to your point about which language to learn? well, if you learn german and english, dutch and the scandinavian languages become understandable, at least in writing. Add french to english and german and almost all western languages become understandable. With the exception of the celtic ones obviously
197

Rosbrog,

20/02/2009 17:59:50
Prys

I agree that from i see wales idea of itself definitely centres around the language but then so does irelands. Scotland is not the case but may be partly due to the presnce of scots as well.

I didn't catch the first point too well, did you mean to imply wales is a nation but scotland is not? Soory if thats my mistake as the sentence rolled into one
198

ardri76@hotmail.com,

20/02/2009 18:04:41
197 Rosbrog

I have lived and studied in Ireland for a number of years, so I am fully aware of the education and the state of the language.
First the fact that the language is still around today is down to the fact the Irish state pays it such reverence, similarly the way it used to pay catholicism but thelatter seems to be less popular ( unless your polish). The current way Irish is taught in school is rubbish but it does still churn out enough people with (a) and interest in the language (b) some basic knowledge to apply it in state institutions . If primary schools were gaelscoils it would benefit the situation massively. The other reason 2ndry pupils hate Irish is because of the crazy “leaving cert point system that makes kids want to take home economics rather than physics and Irish ( note the numbers taking science is down in the republic) this is solely because of the rotten state of its university entry system . The same applies to the UK.
British and irish university students rounded knowledge is poor …ask any continental lecturer or student has studied alongside or taught to “we islanders” (that’s the collective of “us” and not Scottish for small). This is in part due to in Britain /Scotland having only a narrow amount of subjects being taught in school and our inability to speak languages.
2. the complex inter relationship between language and nationhood is a difficult one.
The welsh despite minimal interest in their parliament or indepenence , have little aspiration to be more than a principality . With little obvious symbols of welshness to cling to ( Scotland has the kilt Ireland is lucky to be on a separate island otherwise i believe it would be little different to Kent if the 2 islands were joined).As a result the welsh manifest their identity through their language and powerfully so. man y scots hate the idea of England some much they have loss sight of what being Scottish is.
199

Prys,

20/02/2009 18:04:51
re: Rosbrog

I think my point was that for many Welsh people Wales is the Welsh language. In Scotland you have more a variety in the national identity.

I agree that Scots language does make it more difficult. Excuse my ignorance but arent there many variations of Scots?

I would never imply Scotland is not a nation :-)
200

ardri76@hotmail.com,

20/02/2009 18:14:14
I stated this earlier In relation to making Irish and Scots Gaelic closer …therefore more speakers more relevance, more revenue from TV rights on BBC alba and Irelands TG4. Etc etc …
Like English there are lots of variants but a common standardised set pronunciation
201

Thrawn,

UK 20/02/2009 18:21:23
Much as it saddens me, I fear that Welsh will be the only Celtic language still extant at the end of the 21st century. There is a fine Welsh proverb that Prys can probably cite: A people without a language is a people without an identity. The Celtic languages should be preserved: they are the human right of these peoples.

According to Wikipedia, there were almost a million Breton speakers in 1931, yet now it is mainly the older people who speak their mother tongue and the language is threatened with extinction. The French state refuses to allow the teaching of any language other than French in primary or secondary education.

I fear that many of the Celtic peoples have lost confidence in speaking their mother tongues, which one can understand when one considers the practice of the Welsh Knot, whereby in the 19th century a child caught speaking Welsh at the end of the day was strapped. (The same happened in Scotland.) What is the evidence of children in Gaelic-speaking areas continuing to speak Gaelic today? To what extent do they switch to English when they leave their homes? How does one cope with a dominant language like English and the English-dominated media?

Many native speakers also leave their localities in search of work in the cities, so the numbers reduce, and in many cases it is anglophones who move into these areas, e.g. the Isle of Skye. The locals move out in search of better work opportunities and the English people move in to enjoy a quiet life and good air and scenery and less stress.

The Welsh have clung to their language in sufficient numbers - 300,000 and rising, with Welsh-only primary and middle schools - and there are still Welsh-speaking heartlands. It seems that the Welsh department of education stepped in in time in the 1970s to save the language.

I'll be long gone by the end of this century, but it would be heartening if I were proved wrong.
202

eamon,

20/02/2009 18:25:52
ardri

Another good point. both languages, or dialects, should be brought closer together, we dont have to use each others dialects, but be aware of them, and understand them. The germans do this with their regional differences. If you say Gruess Gott in Hamburg, they know what it means, and that you are Bavarian. Likewise if you say moin moin in Bayern. The locals would never use it, but they do understand it. For points of mutual interest, maybe middle irish could be used( 13th century) as this was the written language of gaels from Munster to Caithness (sorry vincent).
203

Rosbrog,

20/02/2009 18:28:51
ardri76@hotmail.com

Sorry but revenue is not going to be increased by trying to tie two languages together. In fact from what i have seen only gaidhlig will suffer as with all the resources available to irish this benefits them and it we should be concerned with promoting our own language. I cannot begin to understand those who can't wait to pigeon hole gaighlig as the same as irish. How will this make the language appeal to scots. The only language that will benefit from this is gaelige and not gaidhlig.
Stand up and be proud of your countrys language and get over the obsession that the two languages are the same. Similarities of course but you certainly don't hear people in ireland pushing for any of this.

Alba gu brath!
204

ardri76@hotmail.com,

20/02/2009 18:31:28
pardrig pearse - leader 1916 rebellion, linguist and progressive teacher stated “a nation without a language is only half a nation”...interestingly James Connolly his 2nd in command a Scotsman had absolutely no time for linguistic folly or ideas of romantic culture identity. Was it because he (and we as a nation) our dour and pragmatic or was it was he a a communist ??
205

Ewan Macintyre,

Inverness 20/02/2009 18:38:12
Eamon and Rosbrog-

"...vast majority of the ancient Gaels lived on the coast...these people would have seen no difference between Ireland and Scotland, or indeed west Wales." Well said!

Both of you may be interested in a book written by Charles MacKay published in 1887 entitled (wait for it):
Glossary of Obscure Words and Phrases in the Writings of Shakspeare and his Contemporaries: Traced Etymologically to the Ancient Language of the British People as Spoken before the Irruption of the Danes and Saxons (Phew!).

According to Charles MacKay, Shakespeare`s "invented" words were really Celtic language words spoken in his part of of England, not all that far from Wales.

His book is available for study in the Inverness Reference Library (Inverness Gaelic Society section).
206

Mallard,

20/02/2009 18:45:31
Ardri has obviously never heard that casting aspersions on people with opposite views does not help their argument.

Those of us who object to spending huge amounts of public money on Gaelic throughout Scotland are objecting to having the views of a tiny majority foisted on the rest - it is nothing whatever to do with hate.

It is a fact that more than 20% of the Welsh are actually native speakers while only about 2% of Scots have any Gaelic.

It is also a fact that the people and Government (UK, national and local) have more pressing needs at present.
207

ardri76@hotmail.com,

20/02/2009 18:46:30
Rosbrog

I don’t want to seem to be disagreeing with you all the time ,,you have raised logical and valid points. Most Irish people ( those of the provinces of leinster, munster and Connacht) haven’t a clue about Scotland. Irish people always refer to anything on the island of Britain as English ( money , telephone etc) to them they are the same . Ok sure they may cheer for the parkhead crowd and or the murrayfield brigade against the old enemy , but that’s it. The same can be said for Scottish people who either think the place is a priest ridden backwater or even that Dublin is in northern Ireland. The council of the isles hopefully in coming years may readdress this lack of understanding ..The strength of a language is in its numbers and countries it is spoken in .
Imagine “and this is a big imagine “ I could be straying form the point
If I Scottish person knew they could work in Dublin having in an area that required the use of gaelic then it may be a popular language to pursue in school and in uni (salaries in the republic are 1/3 > than in Scotland. And if Irish people could use Gaelic and knew there was more to Scotland than train spotting high rise deprivation and haggis and realised house prices and the quality of life here is much better despite lower wages . that would be something ….and then again
208

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 20/02/2009 18:55:15
Barney

None mate, but I have a sparra on me barra!

BTW, Stan is right when he states that English is the main langauge of business. What he doesn't say though that there is more to life than business and those countries revert back to thier own languages when communicating outwith business.

For example, that French business man/woman who communicates in English at work, speaks French at home with friends and family.

Capiche? (that's how it's spelled Stan, except with an accent obviously, the word you wrote is closer to resembling a fish).

It's important to make the differentiation.
209

ardri76@hotmail.com,

20/02/2009 18:57:17


mallard the uk government for years refused to listen to the majority of scots in relation to poll tax. and in the case of ireland in the 1918 dail ( so westminter fixed that by chopping the county in 2 where the staus quo's would be more obvious)- "government of ireland act 1920".

again mallard ..scotland has more than enough cash the oil remember ...all we have to do is nationalise it .like they do in norway ( thats why they are rich) and russia. if you donnt believe there is alot left well you can log on to the shell web site and a hundred more)...also we as a scottish nation could have nothing to do with the 2bn£ trident missle programe that would save some money...or get involed in illegal wars killing arabs...the price of a 1 harrier jet or challenger tank would go nicely to help build a few gaelic medium schools
210

ardri76@hotmail.com,

20/02/2009 19:11:15
Grahamski,Falkirk 20/02/2009 07:15:03
please refer to all my above points...
211

Zugspitze,

20/02/2009 19:16:55
Mallard
"The chattering classes who send their children to Gaelic medium schools in places like Edinburgh are a burden on the rest of us and are spoiling their offsprings' chances of learning useful subjects properly - it is unlikely that good maths or science teachers will want to work in a school for oddballs."

Yet again someone who posts about something they know absolutely nothing about. I would actually laugh at your hatred and ignorance but I actually find your blinkered perceptions really pathetic.

If you would like to become less ignorant on the subject I suggest you contact the Head Teacher at Tollcross Primary who have Edinburgh's only GM Primary unit. I am sure he could enlighten you as to the quality of his staff, the astounding capabilities of the children in GM and the paltry sum that he receives to run the entire school as a whole (both English medium AND Gaelic). I am also sure he would find your opinion that his school is more of a burden than any other in the City of Edinburgh very interesting indeed.
Of course you could simply continue with your uninformed rants if that is easier for you.
212

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 20/02/2009 19:24:31
Mallard@209

Um, the reason the Welsh are 20% native speakers is because they actively contributed to thier native langauge by way of massive public investment and recognition.

Since you used Welsh as a comparison, then we are right to invest into Gaelic. Or do you not see the simplicity and duplicity of your rather silly argument?
213

ardri76@hotmail.com,

20/02/2009 19:29:39
mallard is taking a while to respond maybe he is learning to read a book
214

IainGlasgow,

20/02/2009 19:29:55
This is not realy an issue that can be properly dealt with until after independence given the 'regionalised' nature of the language in Scotland.

For the same reason Scotland 'needed' devolution, the highlands and islands need some form of pseudo devolved governance along the lines of the London Assembly so they can address the social and economic issues themselves, perhaps even making gaelic the official language of a Highland and Islands Assembly. This really is the only way I can see to reverse not only the decline in Gaelic speaking but also the decline in population and economies of the region. The highlands and islands have massive potential in the renewable energy and other marine industries, perhaps even as big as the oil industry still has the potential to be on the east coast but it nees investment and undivided political commitment. It would be a much way to spend the budget corrently allocated to Highlands and Islands Enterprise.
215

Stan Butler,

20/02/2009 19:37:08
#207 ardri76@hotmail.com,

It is said, and is generally accepted, that James Connolly was born in Edinburgh though there is no proof. Connolly himself couldn't be certain where he was born, being very young at the time of his birth.

I don't think Connolly was ever described as dour (though he would have had excuse enough given the personal and economic privations he had to endure). He seemed to have been an excellent organiser so he probably was very pragmatic albeit in an idealistic cause. But it was his Marxist politics that saved him from the romantic nonsense of Pearse and the others.
216

ardri76@hotmail.com,

20/02/2009 19:39:28
would Federalism destroy Scotland ..That idea was bounded about for Ireland a future united ireland too ... would save the language but ultimately destroy the country ..But then again look at Spain and Germany … it is likely independence will help the languages cause greatly..
217

ardri76@hotmail.com,

20/02/2009 19:44:11

stan
it doesnt matter where someone is borny it how the act and feel that defines who they are
..............connolly was the ying to peasrses yang...but they both failed in achieving there aims ...anyway back to the the real debate...
218

Observer,,

Glasgow 20/02/2009 19:45:31
207 It's because he was a marxist.

209 You can't really say that because Gaelic is a minority language it shouldn't be supported. It is part of Scotland's collective history. It would be ridiculous to let it die out because of lack of funding. Take Glasgow for instance, the money the Council spend on the Gaelic school can't be more than they spend helping children who's first language isn't English. Scotland is a country where many languages are spoken, yes English is the main one by which we can all communicate, but wouldn't it be utterly ridiculous to have a country where Urdu flourishes and Gaelic dies out ? That would be insane.

219

Stan Butler,

20/02/2009 19:47:01
#202 Prys

It is an article of faith to nationalists in Scotland that Scots is a language. It's an assertion based on political rather than linguistic grounds.

Most other people regard Scots as a collection of dialects of English that are spoken in Scotland, no more no less.

220

ardri76@hotmail.com,

20/02/2009 19:54:55
Scots has more of a chance than gaelic because
1. Its similarity to English
2. The romantic affection towards it – ( ie burns)
3. Its Poetry/literature being taught to all school children in Scotland regardless of their ability to speak it.
4. The non sectarian attitude towards it/ the misguided connection between Presbyterianism towards it here and in northern Ireland
221

Independant,

Quebec City 20/02/2009 19:55:04
It's sad to see some of the comments each time the survival of Gaidhlig is written about. I recently learned
that my ancestors spoke Gaidhlig before coming to Canada.
I had never heard anything about it from my Grandmother whose father spoke it.
I have been living in a French environment in Quebec and
loved learning the language. Now I want to learn a language that is close to my heritage.
But when I see the animosity that the mention of the language brings out in many people in Scotland, I find it difficult.
It is like those in English-speaking Canada who belittle the French language. The same arguments: why spend our tax money on a useless language etc. etc.
So I have come to a conclusion and correct me if I'm wrong.
Scotland, Wales, Ireland and Cornwall were colonised by the English and they did everything to eradicate the native languages. As was done in Canada to the Indian children and the French children. The same beating of children who spoke their language by English speaking teachers.
The same happened in Britanny. In French, Britain is La Grande Bretagne and Britanny is La Bretagne. There is a Cornuaille (Cornwall) in Britanny. All of these places were linked linguistically until colonized by the French or English.
I believe that if Irish and Scottish Gaelic are now different it has much to do with the administrative separation by England of these two areas.
I'm wondering if the administrative divisions in Scotland take the Gaels into consideration or continue to separate them so as to make efforts to preserve the language and culture even more difficult...???
So the State has actively worked to eradicate these languages and only now is paying lip service to revitalising them.
It's like starving a person for years and in this case centuries and afterward putting him on expensive life support machines and screaming about the cost. (And wondering why he doesn't make more of any effort to pull himself together)
Tha mi bronach.
222

Hugo of Garven,

20/02/2009 20:00:28
Dave,

" . . English is the main langauge of business."

Increasingly it is American English and not the Queen's English.

That having been said, and geting back on-thread, I hope Gaelic does indeed survive and develop. If some of my taxes are 'wasted' on it then so be it.
223

Stan Butler,

20/02/2009 20:00:29

#224 Independant(sic)


'So I have come to a conclusion and correct me if I'm wrong.
Scotland, Wales, Ireland and Cornwall were colonised by the English and they did everything to eradicate the native languages.'


You're wrong (well, you did ask).

224

ardri76@hotmail.com,

20/02/2009 20:10:29
the attitude of the central English/ British governments of the day was “one language for the union”, those regional tongues did not represent progress....and unfortunately we are in the situation today...because of the actions took against these alternative cultures. These ranged from the benign laws and alienation to widespread persecution and murder. And that is just in these islands
225

Stan Butler,

20/02/2009 20:11:24

#223 rdri76@hotmail.com

It's all very well claiming Scots is a bona fide language. Those who do so make themselves look foolish and do tend to waste other people's money in pursuing their hobby horse but otherwise do little harm.

It's a different matter though when you equate Scots with Gaelic, which is a genuine language which should be conserved if at all possible.All you will succeed in doing is tainting what is an otherwise worthwhile cause.
226

ardri76@hotmail.com,

20/02/2009 20:11:35
that last one was for stan .....they were hardly setting up autonomous councils urging the use of regional languages.
227

ardri76@hotmail.com,

20/02/2009 20:14:30
stan i never said it was a language i made a comparison in terms of survival
dialetic (scots )v's language ( Gàidhlig).
228

Observer,,

Glasgow 20/02/2009 20:22:51
Gulp, I think Stan is right (haven't burst into flames, breathes sigh of relief).

Gaelic is a genuine language which should be conserved if at all possible.

Scots has essentially evolved from the same roots as a number of other languages, and will carry on evolving. Although of course Gaelic should continue to evolve too, conserving it doesn't mean keeping it static.

The best way to do that is to support it, which I actually think there is cross-party desire to do.
229

Iain Mac,

20/02/2009 20:28:02
Mallard in the Borders. Take a look at some of your placenames. According to Watson's 'Celtic Placenames of Scotland' most of names in Peebleshire are of Gaelic and not Brythonnic origin. It should be rememberd that this area was important as a stopping off point for Gaelic speaking monks from Iona on their way to Lindisfarne. It is also likely that Gaels from Fife and the Lothians as well as from Galloway and Carrick made their way and settled.

Lastly, if it werent't for the Gaelic King Malcolm Canmore, the 'borders' would still be English.

Dave Barrach - as to the Welsh. The Welsh as a people seem more 'righinn' than the Gael. In Welsh areas, they greet you in the shops in Welsh first, whoever you are. They're also less likely to switch to English in the presence of non-Welsh speakers. A bit like the English refusing to learn others' tongues. I have a lot of respect for the Welsh and those i have met have been very friendly.

AS to Scots - no one really know where Scots and Scottish English separate. It's probably true that over 1 million Scots speak some 'Scots' but then again there's a lot of Gaelic words in our everyday tongue too. Because people everywhere say 'Slainte mhath', 'galore/ gu leor', 'smashing/ 's math sin' or 'ceilidh' doesnt mean the Gaelic has 1 million speakers. Even J. Derrick Maclure, the Scots activist, admits this.
230

Iain Mac,

20/02/2009 20:29:44
Oidhche mhath is a-maireach gun smal.
231

Independant,

Quebec City 20/02/2009 20:30:58
227
Yes what I heard when I was in Cape Breton was similar.
Even as recently as 10 years ago youngsters were told
by their school teacher that Gaelic wasn't a real language because it wasn't even written! This affected and still affects to this day these young women who saw their community in decline with absolutely no outside help and even attacks of this kind upon it.

Of course I understand that the dominant culture will impose itself on the minority one and even feel that they are doing the minority a favour by 'educating' them.
Still it's sad.
232

Barney Thomson,

Reading 20/02/2009 21:16:42
Ach awa ye glaikit gilliegawpusses!

English in its present form is a vibrant, ever-developing tongue ideally suited for international communication but Scots is a separate language - soon Caribbean and Text English will be too. Scots derives from the Anglic leid spoken by the Germanic peoples who came to the area between Forth and Tees at the same time as the Saxons were coming to areas further south. Anglic developed into Scots and Northumbrian. Southern England spoke West Saxon but the hybrid leid of Mercia, incorporating elements of Anglic and Saxon, being the language of commerce, took over in the South and led to the loss of Saxon except for some survivals here in Berkshire (Dave the sparra take note) and further west.

I am regarded as bilingual by my English mates when I occasionally revert to my mother tongue - kinnapeh?

As for Welsh survival, count sheep in Derbyshire
233

Observer,,

Glasgow 20/02/2009 21:26:02
''Ach awa ye glaikit gilliegawpusses'' is clearly not a separate language because it is easily translated by anyone anywhere in the British Isles with a modicum of intelligence.

What is called Scots has Germanic roots, and is essentially a dialect of a common (huge) language with multitudinous variations.

Yes it is Scots, and yes it should be respected and preserved, but it isn't the equivalent of Gaelic.
234

J F M ,

Glasgow 20/02/2009 21:42:02
The native language of this particular area of Scotland was very probably Welsh! My mother was brought up speaking Gaelic and only learnt English when she went to school, and she too got into bother for using Gaelic at school.
My cousin had a German fiancee who was fluent in several languages English, Welsh and Gaelic being just three. We know the old saying "use it or loose it" goes for the aold Scots tongue and Doric too.
235

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 20/02/2009 22:06:11
Iain Mac

Phone the Western Isles council on Monday (Comhairle nan Eilean Siar) on 01851 703773 then tell me the first thing that they say to you upon answering.

Barney

Take note of what now? Tell me, ever use the word "smashing" to describe something? i.e. that sheep is smashing?
236

JG,

Fife 20/02/2009 22:54:43
#199 eamon
"just watch any home game at ibrox. Plenty on show"
Are you sure you don't mean the Union Jack? I can't stand football, but I've certainly seen loads of Union Jacks being waved if sport comes on the news. Not much evidence of St. George's crosses though.

#223 Ardri
"2. The romantic affection towards it – ( ie burns)"
That's the trouble with trying to preserve 'Scots' - there are so many variations of it. Burns version was mainly west coast and different from the Fife dialect altogether. At least Gaelic is a proper language - even if I don't speak it!
237

Barney Thomson,

Reading 20/02/2009 22:58:30
#236 Observer
Couldn't agree more. 3 of my grandparents were first language gaelic speakers. Since then we've spoken the Standard English or Scots dialects of that huge common language which also includes High and Low German, Pidgin, Flemish, etc.
I'm sure the phrase can be understood in context but I'll still try it on my intelligent mates down the pub tomorrow to see if they understand it.
#238 Dave
Take note that Reading is in Berkshire but, yes, I'm still reading. We have sheep here but we tend to eat or wear them.
238

,

20/02/2009 23:52:57
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
239

Dunnie,

Canada 21/02/2009 01:25:25
224 - Don't talk such tosh!

It's a simple fact to recognize: to victor go the spoils.

It's doesn't make it right but it does explain why things happen the way they do.

As to Quebec; just remmebr the fall of Quebec only happened 11 yrs after Culloden. Look at the difference.

There was no forced abolition of the French language. There was no persecution of Catholics. In fact, the Church filled the void after all the French arictocrats abandoned Quebec and headed back to France.

I would suggest you go back to Cape Breton, particularly the North SHore and see how Gaelic is flourishing. It may never attain the frequency it once held in Cape Breton society but make no mistake, the fight to keep it alive is strong.
240

Robert Burns,

U.S.A. 21/02/2009 01:46:52
# 62, you may think you speak English and you might do so but most of you cannot speak English but instead speak some derivative of it. Do you have the idear?
241

Dunnie,

Canada 21/02/2009 02:59:23
243 - and some of us may think that we can write and punctuate as well.
242

Iain Mac,

21/02/2009 10:17:53
#238 Dave Barrach - i remember phoning Sabhal Mor Ostaig a few years ago to be greeted by 'Madainn mhath but sorry i don't speak much Gaelic'.

Unfortunately, Gaels are renowned for being polite. Normally a virtue but if monolingual English speakers refuse to make an effort then it's not good for a minority language. I think here we could learn a lot from the Welsh and Basques. Our parents, and some us, were punished and told it's a backward 'dead' language. We now know different. We should be proud of it.
243

greenhill,

21/02/2009 14:11:51
RE Iain Mac,21/02/2009 10:17:53


Oh you are so proud . What do you say to the fact that Gaelic killed off the unique Pictish language and culture ? Pot and Kettle .

Spare me the victimology. The Gaelic culture expressed on this thread is all about victimhood. It makes me want to spew.

244

Zugspitze,

21/02/2009 20:23:42
Greenhill, what a charming turn of a phrase you have.

The hatred you express is either really quite sad or you have an amazing flair for "drama".


245

Ewan Macintyre,

Inverness 21/02/2009 21:20:14
Yes, unfortunately, Gaels are renowned for being too polite.
Please note the following facts set out at long last by Michael Alexander who described the linguistic position here in Scotland in the late 15th century in A History of English Literature published by Palgrave in 2007:

"In the late 15th century the best poetry in English came from Scotland. This kingdom, united under Malcolm Canmore in the late 11th century, had four tongues: Highland Gaelic, lowland English, clerkly Latin, and lordly Anglo-Norman French. Since the 7th century, English had been spoken on the east coast from the River Tweed to Edinburgh. Its speakers called the tongue of the Gaels, who since the 5th century had come into Argyll from Ireland, Scottis. A Gael was in Latin Scotus, a name then extended to Lowlanders, who called the northern English they spoke Inglis. After the 14th century, a century of war with England, the Lowlanders called their speech Scottis, and called the Gaelic of the original Scots Erche, later Er## (Irish)."

Typical Teutonic arrogance!

Michael Alexander held the chair of English at the University of St. Andrews.
246

Alastair McIntyre,

Canada 22/02/2009 03:41:08
I note that in Cape Breton they have gaelic language signs on the roads there.

Also as I mostly deal with the history of Scotland there is still a lot of gaelic historical texts that need translating. One translation I found was all about preventable health care and quite a bit of it had also come from older texts back into the 1st century. Amazing that back then they saw drinking red wine as being good for you. It's only quite recently that the medical profession told us that it was good for us. Wonder what else is out there that we don't know?
247

greenhill,

22/02/2009 05:38:35
Re Zugspitze,21/02/2009 20:23:42

Hatred ? Disdain and contempt for hypocrisy is not hatred. The way these people go on it is as if the Gaels were in Scotland since the Myth of the Golden Age and as if the Gaels did not displace other languages and cultures themselves.

Do you reckon Gaelic was the natural language of the indigenous people of Cape Breton ? Stop playing the victim card.

And as for hatred what have you "too polite" Gaelic people got to say about this @232 from Iain Mac, : “Dave Barrach - as to the Welsh. The Welsh as a people seem more 'righinn' than the Gael. In Welsh areas, they greet you in the shops in Welsh first, whoever you are. They're also less likely to switch to English in the presence of non-Welsh speakers. A bit like the English refusing to learn others' tongues. I have a lot of respect for the Welsh and those i have met have been very friendly.”


So Iain thinks it is respectable that people who can switch to English will then not speak to English speakers just because they cannot speak Welsh. ! And that is somehow similar to being monolingual? He thinks such deviants are “friendly”? And any one who is monolingual English is “refusing” to learn other tongues.

Like these are “local shops, for local people, with their local language”.

248

radge dug,

22/02/2009 16:04:54
Greenhill - have you taken your meds? If Pictish were still spoken it would be valuable and worth defending too. Do you speak it? Certainly your English isn't that good.

I don't see any 'victim' culture here. Just people promoting their language - is that not positive? if you want more evidence go and look up the Gaelic punk bands. Not whinging, just using Gaelic as an every day medium.

Nis, theirig is ionnsaich rudeigin.
249

greenhill,

22/02/2009 16:51:32
Re radge dug,22/02/2009 16:04:54

Pictish was overwhelmed by Gaelic.That is a historical fact.My view is that the victim culture of the Gaels is sheer hypocrisy.There is ample evidence of victim culture in this thread and I note you make no refutation re. Iain Mac's nonsense.

I have little interest in "punk" that music is for idiots. J.S. Bach rules over all.

On the other hand if you are into to quality Celtic music check out "The Cheiftans" and look into Seán Ó Riada . I worship Ó Riada , as well as Bach.
250

Thierry MacKee,

22/02/2009 18:59:33
What evidence do you have that Gaelic "killed off" the Pict language? I want real documented archeological evidence for your claims.
This line of argument is just one more tool anglo Gael-haters have developed to deny Gaelic any standing.
However the Pictish language fell into decline is immaterial to the actions done to suppress and smother Gaelic. Unless of course present day Anglos have a mentality better suited to the 9th century and earlier.

251

Thierry MacKee,

22/02/2009 19:11:58
Sadly, one can hear the disgusting comments of Gael haters in many of the media sources in Scotland. It is seemingly one of the last forms of race based hate that is acceptable to express.
I think much of Scotland's schizophrenic attitude to Gaelic is rooted in a form of "imperialist nostalgia". Many of the markers of Scottish identity have Gaelic origins. Incidentally, most of the consumers of this identity are not in fact Gaels. This is due to a recognition by Gaels that so-called "tartanism" is not Gaelic culture but a historically manufactured version of "traditional" culture created by non-Gaels for a non-Gaelic audience. This pattern of enthusiasm and revulsion/disdain for the culture of those colonized has been repeated the world over.
252

Zugspitze,

23/02/2009 08:52:04
Greenhill

If you are interested in extremely talented singers you need look no further than your OWN country. One of the most talented and exciting artists around at the moment is Julie Fowlis.
Be forewarned though, she sings in gaelic (as well as playing the whistle AND the pipes) so it might insult your delicate anti-gaelic ears! ;-p
253

greenhill,

23/02/2009 17:52:50
RE radge dug,22/02/2009 16:04:54

So my English is not that good. Ha! What a deluded fool you are.

I argue that Gaels are right into hypocritical victimhood and what happens: even more victimology.It is most telling that not one of you wants to criticise
Iain Mac.

I advise all of you to look back at my previous post:greenhill,22/02/2009 05:38:35 that ends with-"Like these are “local shops, for local people, with their local language”.

Lets face it I nailed the Gaelic mentality with that.

254

Thierry MacKee,

23/02/2009 22:49:17
"greenhill" cannot make a cogent argument beyond the level of the sandbox. The only nailing you have managed to demonstrate is the nail lodged in your brain that is blocking key synapses from firing.

The meager sums spent on Gaelic, and belatedly at that, is completely justified. Although not nearly enough. You and your ilk formerly had the power to dictate and engineer the demise of Gaelic. Your time is over.

While some of your kind clearly still lurk around spouting your bile, the response on this forum and others show that Gaels and their many many many supporters are not going to just sit back and take it anymore.
255

greenhill,

24/02/2009 12:06:03
Re Thierry MacKee,23/02/2009 22:49:17

That is just empty insult, followed by more demands for money and the hurt feelings card being smacked down on the table. Typical minority victimology.

In addition to add to Iain Mac's "local people" parochialism I now have Zugspitze telling me in capital letters to listen to musicians from my "OWN" country. Again narrow and inward looking.

You really ought to try harder as far as the demise of Pictish culture is concerned. It happened politically: The Picts were not killed off but their culture was.

Let’s face it you lot are right up your own fundaments.
256

Thierry MacKee,

24/02/2009 19:58:24
Any lazy invocation about Picts being "killed off" on this thread was introduced by "greenhill". See post 246.

Again this character can't back up their delusional arguments with actual facts.

The malice this dolt has shown towards Gaels on this thread and others reveals am almost pathological hate towards Gaels.

The only person wallowing in victimology is 'greenhill' with the hard-done by "majority" rants.



257

Thierry MacKee,

24/02/2009 20:27:41
"greenhill"'s bizarre assertion that the policies aimed at snuffing out Gaelic are justified based on a sloppy telegraphing of history from over 1000 years ago is truly breathtaking. However, this is not a unique abuse of the historical/archaeological record. Euro-supremacists have done the same thing to indigenous cultures in America and elsewhere: Culture "X", "wiped out" Culture "Y" 800 years ago, so now that justifies your subjugation today.
This is hate in action folks. Pure unadulterated hate.
258

Thierry MacKee,

24/02/2009 23:26:30
I presume the next time some Anglo-supremacist rails against the presence of immigrants in the country who are not learning "our language" nor adapting to "our traditions" you will of course remind them that they are just reaping what they have sown themselves. Will be waiting for that one you hypocrite.
259

greenhill,

25/02/2009 06:09:40
RE Thierry MacKee,24/02/2009 19:58:24 "Any lazy invocation about Picts being "killed off" on this thread was introduced by "greenhill". See post 246."

I actually said that the Pictish language and culture was killed off ,not that the Picts were killed off.With sheer perfidy you have dishonestly changed the meaning of what I said.

It is the Gaelic culture that is oppressive with it,s hypocritical victim mentality on the one hand yet the narrow insular "local people" mendacity proudly proclaimed by Iain Mac on the other.

Nothing can be done about the loss of the Pictish culture except specialist academic study. There is no need for anyone to feel guilty but Gaels most stop being so tedious with their constant victimhood hysteria.

Such insanity is hilariously trumpeted in your posts at 260 and 261.However there is method in such madness because that manipulation appeals to liberal guilt and results in money from Government.All sorts of "victim" minorities play that game with great success.

260

Thierry MacKee,

25/02/2009 07:30:40
I haven't altered a thing. You claim that Gaelic "killed off" Pictich language and culture, what are a people without a language and culture? You, perhaps?

Whatever the implied meaning, you have failed to back up your lazy assertions with any solid evidence. You just go on about "hypocritcal" this and "victimhood" that, as if simply repeating the same tired lines will convince anyone. I doubt any reader would take anything you post on here seriously solely based on your word.

There is nothing hypocritical about Gaels objecting to being marginalized in their own country. Being denied education and employment opportunities in their own language, while having their culture bastardized for the profit of others without any compensation.

All of your posts reveal a sick and twisted mentality infested with a pathological hate.

You have debts to pay, try to be a little gracious about it will you.
261

Thierry MacKee,

25/02/2009 07:46:47
Your ridiculous assertion about the oppressiveness of Gaelic are almost comedic but for the woeful lack of historical understanding it implies.
You are shameful. The good news however is that you are not so much a minority voice as you are a fringe voice clamoring to be heard at the margins on an online chat board. No name, no location. Safe in your anonymity. The very place where haters go to die. Good luck with that.
262

greenhill,

25/02/2009 10:45:38
RE Thierry MacKee,25/02/2009 07:30:40 "I haven't altered a thing. You claim that Gaelic "killed off" Pictich language and culture, what are a people without a language and culture? You, perhaps?"

Oh yes you did change the meaning of what I said and now you seek to pedantically sidestep the fact. The answer to your question- what are a people without a language and culture- is easy : just the same people but bearing the Gaelic language and culture instead.

The process started with the usurper Giric who crucially passed control of the Pictish Church to a Gaelic Bishop (that was the killer move) and gave control of Pictish land to his Gaelic followers.

The ten years of Giric was followed by the Gaelic backed and educated Donald and Constantine who continued in the same manner. We move from Pictland to Alba and the culture of power was Gaelic.

My assertions about tedious victimhood are exemplified by numerous posts in this thread ,many of them made by you.
263

Thierry MacKee,

25/02/2009 19:08:22

No, your original claim and the continued basis for your screed is that Gaels were involved in some nefarious purposeful destruction of the Picts. Any confusion about language is of your own making with your continued use of terms like "killer move" or "killing off".
Again, this telegraphed argument onto the present-day to justify the smothering of Gaelic is without merit and completely dishonest. Your so-called "historical" information is largely based on mythology rather than fact. No sources forthcoming I see. You'll have to do better than Wikipedia.
There is nothing tedious about being attacked and denied human rights.
The only hypocrites are the anglo-supremacists, such as you, who hide behind a keyboard. Coward.
264

greenhill,

25/02/2009 20:43:57
RE Thierry MacKee,25/02/2009 19:08:22

I have been very clear with my language.You are a pedant who is interpreting metaphor as literal expression.For you to continue with your obvious lie is disgracefull.

The church in those days bridged the gap between aristocracy and people and was involved with what little education was available: A killer move to snuff out a culture(think metaphor if you can think).These were terrible times for ordinary people in all parts of the World.Shame on you for your pedantry,synthetic victimhood and intellectual dishonesty.

Your idiocy is proved by your failure to posit a different version of history.You mention Wikipedia and I realise I am dealing with a fool.

You are ranting and out of your depth. Gaels/Picts are biologically the same as any other race:no different.
Go and check out history to find out about humanity.
Culture is not biological .



265

greenhill,

25/02/2009 20:56:25

P.S. In order for our debate to continue you must appoligse for your lie in accusing me of sayng that the Gaels killed off the Picts.

Any reasonable person reading the posts will see just how twisted and pedantic you have been on that issue.

I do not see the point in debating with a hysterical liar.

266

Thierry MacKee,

26/02/2009 08:22:54
You are a vainglorious windbag. You provide no sources for any of your assertions. You are pathological and twisted to a bizarre extreme.

You are the only dishonest person on this chat forum.
You regularly use language in a purposely obtuse fashion and when the interpretation one makes of your words is not to your liking you claim some ridiculous victim status.

Why don't you stick to what your good at and go diddle your fundament.
267

Thierry MacKee,

26/02/2009 08:27:38
In terms of making up history, you lead the pack. I prefer actual facts, and not a conveniently pieced together fiction designed to fit my own world view.
268

Thierry MacKee,

26/02/2009 08:35:08
No credible historian, archaeologist, or serious academic in any discipline shares whatever contrived garbage you have presented. Again, you offer no sources, nothing. Just more of your haughty condescension.


 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
  

 
 


Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.