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A £4bn bridge it is - now let's get on with it

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Published Date: 20 December 2007
A NEW Forth road bridge costing up to £4.2 billion will be Scotland's largest construction project for a generation, ministers said yesterday, as they finally approved the project, 15 years after a new crossing was first proposed.
The Scotsman has been at the forefront of the campaign pushing for a speedy decision on a crossing to replace the existing bridge, which has been weakened by corrosion.

The Scottish Government has chosen a cable-stayed crossing as a cheaper and q
uicker alternative to a tunnel.

Announcing the plan, ministers said the cost had risen by nearly £1 billion and they admitted several gaps remained over the details, such as how construction costs would be funded and who would control the crossing.

Opposition parties accused the SNP government of broken promises for failing to decide on some key aspects of the project. They fear the bridge will not be completed by 2016, as planned, because it is not yet known if potentially time-consuming new legislation will be required, and who will run the project.

Ministers said the price had gone up because the cost of including space for a tram line or separate busway had not been previously revealed.

John Swinney, the finance secretary, told MSPs the bridge would open "in around nine years' time" at a cost on completion of between £3.25 billion and £4.22 billion. Ministers previously said it would be £2.5 billion to £3.5 billion.

On funding, all he would say was that there would be no tolls on the bridge, and further announcements would be made next year.

The long-awaited decision comes a year after The Scotsman launched a campaign for an immediate commitment to a new crossing – which was answered within weeks by the previous administration, who announced approval in principle.

The new Scottish Government pledged in June that decisions would be taken "in the autumn" on both the type of crossing and "on finance, legislation and governance".

The Scottish Liberal Democrats, who were accused by the SNP of dragging their heels on the project when in power a year ago, accused the Nationalists of hypocrisy.

Alison McInnes, their transport spokeswoman, said: "It is very concerning that the SNP have failed to answer fundamental questions, most notably on how they plan to pay for the new bridge.

"They promised answers by the end of the year, and this is another broken promise by the SNP government.

"There must now be serious doubts about the SNP's ability to deliver this project on time."

The Conservatives, who abandoned an almost identical project a decade ago, said much had still to be decided.

Murdo Fraser, the Scottish Tories' deputy leader, said: "We have finally got the type of crossing decided, but all the other big questions remain unanswered. There is an urgency now to put the rest of the pieces of the jigsaw in place if we have any chance of meeting the 2016 deadline."

However, the Scottish Government argued that it had set out the timescales for finance and legislative issues.

The cable-stayed bridge will be a similar type of crossing to the Kessock Bridge in Inverness and the second Severn crossing. It will have three pylons supporting its deck.

Mr Swinney said it could be built in five and a half years, six months more quickly, and more cheaply, than a suspension bridge like the Forth Road Bridge, because work could take place at several places at once.

It will be built just west of the existing road bridge, with a new road, some two miles long, connecting it to the M9. A much shorter road connection will be required at the north end.

The bridge will be a dual carriageway, with hard shoulders to cope with breakdowns and wind-shielding. It will also include a "multi-modal" element, a separate two-lane section that could be used by trams or buses.

A bored or immersed-tube tunnel further west was rejected on the grounds of cost and the likely environmental damage.

Mr Swinney said the impact of a bridge on the environment would be easier to mitigate.

A new crossing is required as corrosion of the main cables of the Forth Road Bridge could mean lorries being banned as early as 2013, with closure to all traffic six years later. Attempts will be made to halt the corrosion by blowing dry air into the cables from 2009, but there is no certainty it will work. The replacement or strengthening of the cables would be feasible, but would involve massive traffic disruption over several years.

No decision has been taken over its long-term future, but experts believe it will ultimately be repaired to help cut cross-Forth congestion, which is predicted to continue to grow.

Yesterday's decision was welcomed by business groups, but environmental campaigners said the existing crossing should be repaired instead.

Iain McMillan, the director of CBI Scotland, said: "We have consistently argued that a new Forth crossing is a need-to-do, rather than a nice-to-do, and a vital component of the new infrastructure investment that our nation so badly needs.

"The challenge now is for the government to get on with the construction of the new bridge as soon as possible."

Ron Hewitt, the chief executive of Edinburgh Chamber of Commerce, said: "We welcome John Swinney's statement. His grasp of the issues was salutary and his reasoning impeccable in preferring the cable-stayed bridge approach."

Gavin Scott, the Freight Transport Association's head of policy in Scotland, said: "

Our only concern is that the timescale indicated means the new bridge will not be complete for another nine years – well past the time that the current bridge might be closed to large vehicles if the deterioration of the cables continues at the present rate."

Jenny Dawe, the Edinburgh city council leader, said: "It's especially encouraging to see the bridge will include an element of future-proofing, with the capacity to accommodate additional light rail transport such as trams or a guided busway."

But Duncan McLaren, the chief executive of Friends of the Earth Scotland, said: "If ministers are to deliver both their economic and climate-change goals, they must concentrate on fixing the existing road bridge rather than pursuing any additional crossing."

Projected costs and timescale for the crossing

It is estimated that the new bridge will cost between £3.25 billion and £4.22 billion

• Further details about the bridge and how it will be approved and built will be announced next year

• Plans will be submitted for authorisation in 2009

• A competition for building the bridge will be staged in 2010

• A constructor will be appointed in 2011

• The bridge is expected to be open in 2016

• There were four options considered for the crossing featuring two types of tunnels and two bridges

• The final design will be a cable-stayed bridge, and three pylons or towers, with cables bracing the decks of the road

• The central tower will be located on Beamer Rock

• This will incorporate two main spans of 650 metres each with equal back spans of 325 metres

• The bridge will be sited just west of the existing road bridge

• The option is considered to be both the cheapest and quickest with a construction time of five-and-a-half years

• There will be a dual two-lane carriageway with hard shoulders and pedestrian and cycle access

• Two separate lanes for public transport, such as trams or buses will be designed.

• It is expected that the new link will reduce the CO2 emission generated by the current crossing

• The cost of dedicated public transport for the bridge is £452 million

• Provision will be made to allow for the introduction of a light rail or guided bus system

• The modern design means the crossing should remain open even during high winds

Funding options for crossing take a new direction

FUNDING of one of Scotland's largest ever building projects is one of the most significant unanswered questions about the new bridge.

The Scottish Government is expected to announce details today of its proposed Scottish Futures Trust, which is seen as a non-profit alternative to previous private funding methods for public projects.

However, all John Swinney, the finance secretary, would say yesterday was that private sector involvement would not be ruled out.

It is thought the trust is likely to involve a partnership between government bodies and firms, but with any profits going to the public purse rather than shareholders.

An alternative would be traditional funding, where the government is able to borrow money at lower interest rates to pay for schemes.

Mr Swinney said: "Work is continuing on the procurement options and this will include consideration of the appropriate risk to the private sector, in line with current government policy on the development of the Scottish Futures Trust. The government is against tolling."

However, he admitted the scale of the project would have a major impact on government coffers. He said: "This will put a significant strain on other projects during this period."



Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 19 December 2007 9:27 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Forth Bridges
 
1

,

20/12/2007 00:59:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
2

Alan Reid,

Wellington, New Zealand. 20/12/2007 00:59:20
"Ministers said the price had gone up because the cost of including space for a tram line or separate busway had not been previously revealed" And who pushed through this tram line in Edinburgh against the SNP Goverment, at a cost of ???? Please tell me AM.

While your on the subject of sums, how much did it cost the Scottish tax payer to put in a NEW train line from central London to the Dome? Also how much will it cost the Scottish tax payer to upgrade the London underground, and much will it cost Scottish lottery projects to fund the inner London regenration project (Olyimpics).
There is of course plenty of other screw ups the UK goverment is ripping off the Scottish people with but i'm sure you get my drift.
I await your usual copy and paste links from The Scotsman records room.
3

Alan Reid,

Wellington, New Zealand. 20/12/2007 01:42:08
I wasn't taking about the Edunburgh Tram line, but since you mention it was it not the oppostion parties who pushed it thru at a cost at the moment of half a billion.
Having to listen to distasteful comments that are always in the English media concerning England always bailing out Scotland, well yeah I guess I do have a bit of nationalistic resentment. But don't worry pal when Scotland is independant I won't be voting for the SNP ever again, and thats something you can't understand eh?
As for me saying "parasite slug off our ass" YES I said it, and I would say it again, until England can stand on it's own feet, without Scotland propping it up.
"As for your apparent concern for the poor, downtrodden Scottish taxpayer" No, not just that it's the poor English taxpayer I feel sorry for, having to feed and support Scotland.
Now I must go i'm off up North on holidays, TTFN.
4

CRAGman,

20/12/2007 02:06:23
I very much hope that any new crossing will be capable of carrying heavy rail traffic. What Scotland needs is a fast journey time between Edinburgh, Perth, Inverness, Dundee and Aberdeen and that is simply impossible if the current Fife coast line with its many speed restrictions continues to be used for these journeys.

A new crossing capable of carrying heavy rail would allow a new rail route to Perth and Dundee along the M90 corridor to be constructed. The current Fife coast route - essentially the Fife Circle - could become light rail and use the Forth Rail Bridge. It could run on the tram tracks from either Gogar or Murrayfield to the city centre, thus freeing up capacity at Waverley for the fast inter-city services heading north proposed above.

In short, any new crossing should not be carrying light rail but rather heavy rail with the Forth Rail Bridge carrying both heavy and light rail.

We need a fast rail service connecting the capital with the nations's cities to the north. Any new crossing can help to facilitate this - heavy rail provision as in Lisbon is essential. Anything else is rushed, short-sighted and lacking in strategic transport vision.
5

Arrow,

edinburgh 20/12/2007 02:24:34
AM2 check your facts. the bridge was suggested to be multi modal and that is might ba able to accomodate a light railway.
the bridge will link to the M9 and as far as i was aware the Council wanted to put the Tram out to Kirkliston which is not a million miles away from the likely location of the junction.
6

Navvy,

20/12/2007 02:57:28
Price range 50% accurate what. I still think that we will rue that day we opted for a second bridge and not a tunnel

Masie is wrong in her conclusions, the Tagus bridge was designed by a German engineer who would also have specified the materials to be used. The contractor followed the design and specification. British bridge designers and builders are world class. What is wrong with our bridges is the parsimony of the British Government bridges who insist on building the cheapest option and ingnoring the whole life benefits of building better in the first place.

It looks as though the SNP are sticking to this failed route. The replacement bridge will have the same 2 lane capacity as the overloaded and congested present one - where is the benefit in that - replacing like for like. AS has been mentioned the public transport light rail reserve will make no significant dent in the congestion so I assume that for the next 20 years we will be stuck with jams unless the public transport reserves and hard shoulders are used for ordinary traffic.

7

Erik McIntosh,

Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk, Russia 20/12/2007 02:59:24
So the new crossing will reduce CO2 emissions? Ok, it will accommodate light rail but the report does say there would be no tolls on the bridge? Does the government think that traffic will reduce? Not sure how that will work.
I'm always interested in initial budget figures and final cost. Hope there is loads of contingency in the estimate, which i seriously doubt, as cost is always a deciding factor in any approval, or that the government plans for 50 to 100% over expenditure and will be able to fund it!
8

W Smith,

Middle East 20/12/2007 03:35:00
Replacing a two lane bridge with a two lane bridge.

DOLTS.

8 years + to build a bridge is just nonsense. Where did they get that from?

A new 40 km bridge is going to built from Bahrain to Qatar and it will be fininshed before the Forth crossing.

Let a Japanese connstruction company do this job and it wil be finished within 5 years. EASILY!

BTW
Strange that some politicians want to debate the 'cost' when Scotsman Gordon Brown spends £458 million per day on quangos (£167.5 billion annually) and yet when it comes to bridges we've got to do it on the cheap.

9

James,

Dundee = giving a differet slant 20/12/2007 04:32:12
After years of delay by the former Labour/Lib Dem Executive, the SNP Government made the new crossing a priority commitment, announcing their decision within seven months of taking office and after a full public consultation.
However, under the timetable announced in Parliament yesterday, it will not be until 2011 that a builder for the new bridge will be appointed. Before then, land acquisition and other preparation work will continue next year, a submission for authorisation and possible legislation will continue throughout 2009 and there will be a procurement competition in 2010.
Scottish Tory transport spokesman Alex Johnstone said, “For years now, ever since FETA flagged up the dire state of the existing structure, Scottish Conservatives have been calling for the work on a new crossing to start.
“That successive Liberal Democrat transport ministers refused to start the work when in power is nothing short of a scandal.
“The fact that the existing bridge may well have to close to HGVs long before a new crossing is finished will be hugely damaging to the economy and is the shameful legacy of Labour and the Liberals.

Your own party is laying the blame at the feet of the navel gazers where it belongs AM2!
10

Pete40,

Tassy 20/12/2007 06:06:08
Fifty years from now, I can guarantee that time can pass fast, is road transport the best way to go? Do you want a road transport system for distribution, or do you want a rail system? Given that both Glasgow and Edinburgh are centres of whatever, it maybe that an inexpensive crossing maybe at Stirling would suffice. It could be that the present methods of transporting goods and people cannot be sustained and alternatives should be looked at. It cannot be said that thirty or fifty years is too short a time.
11

Paul Morant,

UK 20/12/2007 07:19:43
Why spend all the extra money on unnecessary bus lanes? - This will add considerably to the cost - which is about £1000 per Scot.
- Better to build just the two lane dual carriageway, maybe with the hard shoulder usable by traffic (or perhaps just buses) at any time of seruious congestion (unlikely on the bridge itself).
- Yes, let's then close, repair and reuse the old bridge as well - maybe this could serve for public transport if the need is there.
12

,

20/12/2007 07:22:58
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
13

Mcsnagpile,

20/12/2007 07:44:09
The bridge means in bad weather even more people will be jammed on both sides of the bridge. Been there, done that (snow, hail, wind, repairs, -- plenty of choice).

Do we need another cheap option, do we scramble to build another bridge in a few years time before the new cheapy bridge falls on its butt. This is already being demonstrated with the new-old bridge. They even want to put a tram on it. Maybe we could run one up the Scott monument while we are at it, or rails to the Hebrides. Loads o' lolly.

If we want to run electric vehicles, then the trolley bus is a better option. During its time the newspapers called it the ‘silent death’ as it did not have enough noise pollution. Digging up roads and putting down rails somehow seems out of touch with the modern world.
Why should all the big cities in UK have tunnels but not Edinburgh? Glasgow has three + service tunnels, not to mention Newcastle, Liverpool etc, etc, etc.
14

Albawolf,

St Andrew 20/12/2007 07:46:01
This is queue jumping - pure and simple.........

This project is not required.
This project provides very very poor value for money.

Most likely it will happen (althou it shouldn't)

Then Glasgow will get another fix - no doubt styled as improvement for some mickey mouse games they just won.....

Meanwhile the rest of Scotland goes without....

NOT JUSTICE...........

An example for the world to see of the way the civil servants in scotland conduct business....

All the people in Hitrans should be fired for allowing this........


15

Transparent?,

Scotland 20/12/2007 08:16:25
#17. This was sent to the Courier on 21st August.

Forth Crossing
(Bridge or Tunnel?)

Has anyone considered building a dam/viaduct across the river Forth with no change in water level, as in a normal dam, and with arches to allow the flow of shipping traffic. A dam would not suffer salt water corrosion and, with exclusive traffic lanes on the road above, oil tankers could ‘harbour’ in one or two specially designed arches to have their cargo pumped up to oil transporter vehicles above. Less chance of oil pollution or spillage, as may occur when pumping between two marine vehicles. That should please the environment people. Furthermore, in the event of a road collision (a pile-up), it would be more accessible than a tunnel - helicopters could be used to rescue the injured. You cannot do that in a tunnel if it’s blocked due to a traffic pile-up, structural collapse or flooding.

Also if the tidal energy of the river Forth can be harnessed in one or more arches, it could be used to supply electricity to the road above, including the oil pumps and lighting.

No thermal expansion problems either so the road surface would not need to ‘float’. And no problems with natural frequency vibration like the Tacoma bridge suffered.

Now there’s a challenging idea for the Civil Engineers to calculate!
***
And here is a word of caution for Nr Swinney:

The collapse of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge was a hallmark in the history of bridge design and civil engineering. The remains, located on the bottom of the Sound, are a permanent record of man's capacity to build structures without fully understanding the implications of the design and the forces of nature.
16

Toast,

20/12/2007 08:19:29
Labour and the lib/dems complete indecision cost tax payer £1billion,lets hope these incompetent clowns never gain power again.
17

Bert Kwok,

North West England 20/12/2007 08:25:40
Dave from Barra. I agree with you on relocating jobs. It looks like the nations of Britain are still stuck in a capital centric outlook.
Also, I see many 40 tonners using the crossing when I am working in Scotland. Why are those loads not being moved on the neighbouring bridge pulled by a locomotive?
18

OLD GIN,

METHIL LEVEN 20/12/2007 08:30:33
BRIDGE A WASTE OF OUR TAX, DELAYS WE STILL HAPPEN DUE TO WIND, UNDERGROUND FAR BETTER THAN THE UGGLY BRIDGE
19

PJ Walker,

East Lothian 20/12/2007 08:33:18
The Scottish Parliament building ended up costing 10x the original estimate (strange how the over-paid 'experts' get it wrong time and time again) so how much will the bridge really cost, £10, £12, £15 bilion?
20

Lianachan,

Highlands 20/12/2007 08:39:57
Yet another massive investment in the infrastructure of Edinburgh, while we continue to pack ourselves into overcrowded and poorly maintained roads up here. There is life north of Stirling! Never mind this nonsense and get the damn A9 sorted out.
21

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 20/12/2007 08:52:55
#25 - There was a plan to upgrade the A9 however the opposition decided that Edinburgh should have a train set instead. Muppets.

Similarly, the decision to add "multi-modal" capacity adds unnecessary cost for no real benefit. There is already a perfectly good rail bridge which has loads of capacity on it (although some tracks either side need upgrading). Make the new FRB 3 lanes and allow traffic to flow for once.
22

donald,

glasgow 20/12/2007 09:02:37
Aboot time. Better the the British Road tae Chauvinism.
23

morris,

edinburgh 20/12/2007 09:07:53
4

If space is being left for a tram line where do you suppose it will link to when its built ? Of course they could be leaving the space for a tram line going nowhere I suppose!Or just leaving a space which will never be used?

My guess will be that like all tram lines, it will go somewhere! Now let me see,how many Tram Lines do we have in the East of Scotland? Ah yes NONE but we will soon have the airport which is not only our only contender, but unlike the one we currently build actually might make some sense ,in that the bridge carries the maximum number of passengers as opposed to the maximum number of vehicles.

I would have thought that would have been both obvious and desirable with a Park and Ride located on the North Shore Tram terminal ?We probably cannot reduce the number of people who cross the Forth,but we can reduce the number of cars crossing by making other forms of transportation available.If Park and Ride works at Hermiston it can work at Rosyth also.
Alan Reid has obviously been thinking about this.
24

Transparent?,

Scotland 20/12/2007 09:13:02
#24. As far as I know, it was never published. However, I think you agree, it's worth consideration at least.
25

Guthrie,

Edinburgh 20/12/2007 09:13:38
4.2 billion???????
Are they mad?
26

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 20/12/2007 09:17:34
In 1955, the US Congress authorised and made available multi-trillion dollar funding for the construction of 42,000 miles(64,000 kilometres) of the new Interstate Highway network which was completed in 1993, 38 years later! This massive civil engineering project included thousands of bridges and tunnels.

The State of Maine, which has similar demographics to Scotland, greatly benefits from this superb transport network.

After the new Interstate highways were opened to traffic, the State of Maine ABANDONED more miles of pre-1955 turnpike routes, including bridges and tunnels, than the present total miles of Scottish motorways! (A State of Maine website shows photographs of all these abandoned turnpikes which make the M8 look
like a Roman road)

Meanwhile, the Central Scotland motorway network, of which the crumbling Forth Road Bridge is part,
is still incomplete?
27

CRAGman,

20/12/2007 09:26:11
#10 - the new crossing proposed is NOT a replacement crossing. It's quite clearly an ADDITIONAL crossing. The existing Forth Road Bridge is not going to be blown up - so we need to factor in repair costs for the old(1960s) bridge if dehumidification of the cables doesn't halt the corrosion. In the end, we'll have doubled road capacity, done nothing for rail except undermine it and maybe have a tram reservation doing nothing that folk will soon say should be made available to general traffic as well.

Any new crossing must be able to provide Scotland with a new fast rail link to the north (via the M90 corridor) which the existing route via Kinghorn, etc. can never do. Not to build this into any new crossing is extremely short-sighted and shows that this country does indeed have very little vision for the future.
28

morris,

edinburgh 20/12/2007 09:27:25
25 and 26

Indeed the upgrade of the A9 would have benefitted the whole of Scotland,but alas the SNP were not allowed to do this,and were even accused of favouring the North because they had votes there!When a government is accused of trying to help people then we really do have an opposition,but for the sake of it!

So the Tram Line does not favour Edinburgh then ? IF so WHY THE BLAZES ARE WE BUILDING IT? If it does favour Edinburgh then the opposition are guilty of favouring their own, exactly what they accuse the SNP of.

I have often wondered if the oft talked about Waverley line which would provide a border rail link again ,but only be of use to those near a railway station(Its quicker to drive to Edinburgh unless adjacent to the line)would not better serve these communities by being turned into a quality road link to Carlisle,possibly even dual carriageway ?
WE SHOULD BE DEMANDING OUR CAPITAL IS LINKED TO THE REST OF THE UK BY MOTORWAY!
Quite ridiculous when you think about it.
I agree however the A9 should have been our first priority.If SCOTLAND HAS THE SENSE to rid herself of the UK rest assured it will be!It certainly will not happen othrwise,because the last thing the UNHOLY ALLIANCE want is to improve Scotlands infrastructure.They are here to keep us in our place,and answer to WESTMINSTER.

The Unionists see their role as preventing the SNP from making a success at Holyrood and it could NEVER be more obvious than this stupid tram in Edinburgh.

ONE MORE REASON WHY I WOULD SAY TO SCOTLAND remove Westminster and it does NOT stop there. Next step is devolve government from Edinburgh to at least GLASGOW DUMFRIES DUNDEE ABERDEEN INVERNESS .

If you dont ask you wont get !
SO START ASKING ! ITS TIME!
29

Andrew,

20/12/2007 09:37:17
Plan an extension of the Edinburgh tram from the airport to (at least) Dunfermline, NOW - so as to have it up and running when the bridge opens to ALL potential/proposed traffic!!!
30

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 20/12/2007 09:39:48
Fascinating that everyone just 'accepts' that the present bridge cables are decaying. The only 'evidence' for this are alleged sounds of 'pinging' cables detected by 15 external microphones. Of course these 'pings' could just be cable wires rubbing against each other - but on the strength of unseen 'pings' the taxpayer is asked to stump up £4.2 billion. Amazing that the Brooklyn Bridge - opened in 1883 is still standing without any cable decay.
The Golden Gate Bridge - built in a place of perpetual fog and salt winds is still doing fine since it opened in 1930.
But the Forth Bridge, which was built in the 1960s - presumably with far more advanced cable design and corrosion defence - the Forth Bridge is suddenly 'at risk', though there seems damn little real evidence of 'cable decay', mereley 'engineers opinions'. And of course these engineers would be the ones most likely to benefit if a new bridge was built.

Could it be that the big business interests are cashing in on the current 'fear strategy' of which 'global warming' is the supreme example. The technique is to raise an enormous fear in the mind of government and public that some terrible catastrophe is imminent. Heap up the science and research 'evidence' high as a mountain - to a point where nobodu can absorb any more facts, then offer a 'solution' costing £billions - if not £trillions. Then sit back and watch the taxpayers pour their cash into your company's bank account.
I strongly suspect that major construction companies now employ 'fear and anxiety' psychologists to advise them on how to engender the maximum fear factor in creating their long term financial strategy.

Oh, and by the way, the Forth Bridge cost less than £20 million in 1964 - and this included 26 miles of dual carriageway roads and 24 smaller road bridges. I know inflation has been steady but a rise in cost from £20 million to over £4.2 BILLION in just 43 years seems somewhat excessive. That would mean an inflation rate of someth
31

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 20/12/2007 09:58:44
(continued)

A rise in bridge construction costs from £20 million in 1964 to £4.2 billion in 2007 would imply an inflation rate of 20,000 percent! The original bridge designers may still be alive and kicking - why not invite them back and offer them the chance to build a second bridge - for - lets say 10 times as much cash £200 million.

On another point - even if the 'decaying cables theory' is true - and I sincerely doubt it - why not replace the cables? Just place new cables above the existing ones and drop new supports to the bridge below. I'll bet you its been done in other oarts of the world.
I can almost here the developers saying - ah but it would be CHEAPER to build a new bridge rather than repair an old one.

I say get the Japanese in to build the new one. Dont give any work to any Scottish companies. I mean if they cant build a suspension bridge that will last 50 years - then they cant be trusted with a replacement can they?
32

morris,

edinburgh 20/12/2007 10:06:14
19

I doubt that Scotland needs reminding of bridge disasters from TACOMA.We had our own TAY BRIDGE (longest in the world at the time)disaster (almost 128 years ago to the day), which managed to oscillate its way to self destruction.Its interesting to note that Bouch calculated a wind force of 10lbs per square ft, and he was removed from the Forth Bridge contract and his replacements increased this to 30lbs per sq,ft on the FORTH BRIDGE!I think that was indicative of where the blame was laid to rest,(or should that read who perhaps)?
I take the point however.
33

morris,

edinburgh 20/12/2007 10:12:33
38

What Alan Reid said was (and I have copied and pasted it,a technique with which you are well familiarised with) was "Having to listen to distasteful comments that are always in the English media concerning England always bailing out Scotland"

He clearly was referring to the ENGLISH MEDIA who propogate this crud,(something else with which you are well familiar),and there is therefore absolute clarity in his meaning.

Im surprised that you even tried such a cheap response which you cannot possibly believe. I have come to expect better from you!
34

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 20/12/2007 10:20:56
#36 - The Edinburgh tram does not address a clear need. The business plan is a joke.

It is a pure vanity project.
35

BMeister,

20/12/2007 10:32:52
41 AM2
reading the post that line comes across as sarcastic so I think your interpretation was not the one intended.
36

Gtj,

Dundee 20/12/2007 10:36:33
£4.2 Billion for a bridge that the whole of Scotland will benefit from is a steal compared to £60 Billion propping up Northern Rock.
37

OLD GIN,

METHIL LEVEN 20/12/2007 10:52:36
S N P ARE GOING BACKWARDS FIRST THET STOP THE TRAIN LINK TO AIRPORTS MOST COUNTRYS HAVE THIS BUT NOT US, THEN THEY PUT A BRIDGE WHAT IS CLOSED OFTEN BY WEATHER , A TUNNEL THIS WOULD NOT HAPPEN GET RAIL LINK AND TUNNEL ROAD RAIL TUNNEL THIS WOULD UP GRADE THE RAILWAY AWAY DROM DERV AS ELECTIC CAN BE USED QUICKER TRAINS TRANSPORT NO DELALY COME ON SNP WAKE UP
38

Kerry,

EDINBURGH 20/12/2007 10:53:53
They should ensure the new bridge is only open to disabled people, public transport and haulage vehicles so that the longevity of the new bridge is ensured whilst cutting congestion and pollution. Obviously the above inflation increases in train fares will ensure that by this time the train service will provide more than adequate access to Edinburgh.

I also see no mention of the costs involved or any intention to remove the existing bridge or is that going to remain open to small private vehicles that would also be fantastic for the residents of South Queensferry who appear to have been completely ingnored when all of this was decided............ 2nd class citizens paying Edinburgh City Council taxes as usual.
39

Kerry,

EDINBURGH 20/12/2007 10:58:24
Oh and if they were that bothered about halting the supposed decay of the bridge they would have prevented thousands of vehicle queuing across it. I look forward to the announcement of the winner of the contract and obviously hope that it is in the best solution for more than certain individuals monetary or polictical gain.
40

morris,

edinburgh 20/12/2007 11:02:13
I can only speak for moi of course,but the significance here ,is governed by the fact that I am unaware of him having made them!I refrain from further comment as much as I can , by choice, since the context would possibly show that they were tongue in cheek .I have myself offered to run you to Stranraer ! The truth is I would protect your right to disagree with me,because I have no freedom at all otherwise.

I don't however have time to tread these pages and read every post,which should be evident from the number of times I post something only to find that many others have beaten me to it,and usually far more eloquently than I could. I blame the typist personally!

It is an interesting question since you claim Northern Irish (UK ie) origins. If Scotland became independent,would you return to Northern Ireland,go to England,or stay here in Scotland? I can see nothing wrong with asking that question,but I am a tad suspicious if you refuse to answer it. There is no question that you will be welcome to stay here of course ,and I expect that to apply to everybody equally.If it does not,then there had better be a very good reason for exclusion,and so far I do not recognise any as being justified.(No doubt somebody will think of one).
41

Rob,

Moray 20/12/2007 11:10:29
I certainly enjoy the delusional Alan Reid writing from the safe distance of Wellington. What an intellect!! Another Scot we can all do without and I hope he enjoys the rest of his life there and stays away from our nice new bridge.

The bridge is required and will assist in Scotland's growth. The funding proposal is of course ridiculous and 100% political - it should be toll bridge to carry the burden of its maintenace at the very least. It is fair enough for the Government to pay a part for a beneficial infrastructure project through capital and depreciation - but of course, this is just another jibe at Westminster and nothing to do with economics - just another crass attempt to illustrate the wondrous world of the Independent Scotland. Very few will be fooled but the usual SNP bloggers will love it.

Wait 'till they get the right to raise taxation - you'll soon see that this has to be paid for too - and by Scots!! Surely, a toll for any Englishmann crossing at the very least?
42

IainA,

Edinburgh 20/12/2007 11:16:48
"Announcing the plan, ministers said the cost had risen by nearly £1 billion and they admitted several gaps remained over the details, such as how construction costs would be funded and who would control the crossing."

Details? how it's going to be paid for? Are these people having a laugh?
43

Kerry,

EDINBURGH 20/12/2007 11:20:19
Why was only one site considered for the bridge but 3 sites for the tunnel ??? I wasn't aware of a shortage of unoccupied land along the Forth.

Why couldn't this bridge have been built to accomodate the Forth Bridge traffic ? It's not like we didn't know that it was required.
44

Kerry,

EDINBURGH 20/12/2007 11:20:40
Helps if you post the links I suppose.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/5058076.stm
45

morris,

edinburgh 20/12/2007 11:25:28
51

I recognise where you are coming from.

However, its a sad fact of life that the problem with Edinburgh City Bypass is it uses roundabouts(Sherrifhall being the worst offender).The speed of traffic is governed by how many vehicles are on the bypass which is in turn governed by how fast they can exit and to a lesser extent how fast they can join.In this case its the speed of traffic on Sherrifhall roundabout which is probably an average of around 5mph!
You could increase the by pass to 100 lanes ,they would STILL not travel any faster because they would still have to negotiate Sherrifhall. Remove the roundabouts and use fly on,fly off lanes and watch the system fly!We use them all over the world.They work !

The extra lane will contribute absolutely minumal benefit, and only for those vehicles whose duration on the bypass does NOT include SHERRIFHALL
The money would be better spent creating NON STOP EXITS which is what almost every other bypass has !

Edinburgh City Bypass was a triumph of futility over common sense!Its incomplete !
46

morris,

edinburgh 20/12/2007 11:31:08
53

I certainly enjoy the delusional Rob writing from the safe distance of Moray.
Why should Fifers pay a toll charge when crossing the Forth but the Clyde or over to Skye is free. Do you pay to cross the Kessock Bridge ?

None of Scotland should be punished because of her topography.
47

frank mcbride,

lusitaia 20/12/2007 11:34:15
My comment on this topic seems to be floating in the ether so, I'll try again.

In the spirit of Concensus Government, I believe that the Scottish Government should build the bridge provided that it linked to the Tram, with an extension into Fife and a further one to an under-runway terminal at Edinburgh Airport.
To fund this they should abandon all other infrastructure proposals/projects and, should centralise A&E provision in say 5 (major city) locations also, recant on free prescriptions and graduate tax. Reneige on the "concordat" with LAs.

This solution would reflect the MAJOR POLITICAL IMPERATIVES of the UNIONIST ALLIANCE.
48

frank mcbride,

lusitania 20/12/2007 11:36:21
BTW, what are the major political imperatives of the Unionist Alliance?
49

Upbeat,

20/12/2007 11:38:28
What is so inept about this whole story is the discussion of price. This has occured before any real work has started on the compulsory purchase of the land necessary for the approaches to the crossing; before any detailed design work has been done on the bridge itself; before any contractor has been contacted to tender for the construction; before any certainty exists about world commodity prices in the years ahead ( think oil prices ! ) the whole thing is quite incredible.

Surely having now decded that we are -for some reason or other -supposed to build a bridge, the next stage is to find contractors and consortia, who will compete to deliver a finished product within a contracted price.

But no. In modern day Scotland we announce how much we dream this sort of thing might cost. We then tell to the world how much money we think it will cost , we tell everyone that we always expect cost over runs, and so may be content even if it costs much , much more than planned. How infantile is that ?

It reminds me of a shopper in a recent comedy programme. " How much is this item? " reply "For you,...and I saw you coming.... I have a special price ..."
50

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 20/12/2007 11:38:58
Scots engineering firms please.
F*** foreign tender.
51

The Strategist,

20/12/2007 11:53:25
By the time this bridge is built the cost of fuel will have gone through the roof and supply will be very tight.

It's quite likely therefore that traffic levels will be lower not higher. Consequently the idea of a bridge with the same capacity as the existing one is probably a sensible one.

There's another point as well. With new broadband technology coming along the need to travel is going to be much reduced. There will be - or should be - much more home working or working from local centres..
52

morris,

edinburgh 20/12/2007 11:59:39
60
In a nutshell retain every cent of Scotland's oil revenues at any cost.What does "at any cost"entail? We will find out,but the record of the British Empire has blood spilled all over it!Hopefully international law will be enough to ensure sanity prevails.

Scotland has so far "benefited" from £236 billion in oil revenues (or slightly more by now possibly).When I say benefited I of course mean WESTMINSTER government benefited .Scotland definitely did NOT and the Barnett formula proves it ! LONDON benefited to the exclusion of every other part of the UK .
The Unionists are quite proud to tell us that Scotland was not ripped off (for LONDONs benefit) quite as much as Wales Northern Ireland and the other English regions were!

How that helps Scotland one can only wonder!
Apologies for being off topic,but the link is actually there to the matter in hand.
Nationalists are often accused of claiming that independence is the answer to everything.NOT TRUE.

We merely recognise that the UK is not the answer to anything!
53

Rob,

Moray 20/12/2007 12:11:37
Thanks Morris. Yes, happily deluding myself here and enjoying the frozen weather and council tax. Kessock Bridge is free but then it didn't cost anything like £4billion and has been the best infrastructure project the North East ever had. Sadly, we don't have an economy on the scale of Edinburgh or Fife but that bridge has made a huge difference to our countrymen in the north.
I would agree that the Skye Bridge toll was wrong given the lack of an economy there - but the Forth is maybe most similar to the Severn Bridges - i.e. toll - over £5 there I think, a real charge. Makes the Forth Bridge look like a good deal to me - and I'm sure you can afford it. Mind you, we Scots just love something for nothing, don't we?


54

jaaiv,

Brampton 20/12/2007 12:12:34
But when will they build a Motorway accross Fife to link up with the Tay Bridge.
55

morris,

edinburgh 20/12/2007 12:14:15
69

Not quite as simple as that as you well know.

The Unionists would be welcome to stay in Scotland,but there will of course be no UNION this side of the border (we have just declared independence remember)so if you wished to remain in the "Union" you could only do so by being in the UNION and not being in SCOTLAND.
You could go to Northern Ireland or England or Wales and be a Unionist or you could stay here and be a SCOT or a guest,but you could not be a Unionist when we are no longer part of that Union!
Unless you are saying that you intend to plot to overthrow the legitimate government of SCOTLAND?
Are you?
56

morris,

edinburgh 20/12/2007 12:28:59
72

You miss the point Rob.Everything you buy in Moray already has a surchgarge for transporting it there by road (well most things anyway)and you want to further increase it? Its your interests I am looking after here,not mine,I cross the Forth twice a year myself,(and you probably are the same with the Kessock Bridge for all I know). Inverness and Aberdeen will cater to most of your needs I would expect.Edinburgh caters to mine certainly.
I doubt that many people around Moray will agree with you,apart from incomers possibly, and their opinion is understandably different, but the majority decide of course .
Scotland once paid more for Gas when it travelled North.Uniformity of pricing existed as soon as it travelled south! That says it all.
57

gus1940,

Edinburgh 20/12/2007 12:38:58
#35 & #37

Excellent points re the inflation in building costs since the present bridge was opened in 1964.

Over and above these points it is stated that the cable stay bridge will be cheaper than a suspension bridge which makes the inflation in costs even worse.

Does any body have any idea why this level of inflation exists for nearly all publicly funded projects?
58

Rob,

Moray 20/12/2007 12:39:52
Gosh. Morris you really are excelling yourself today and I am so pleased to hear that I am welcome in my own country. Thank you. Presumably everyone will have to pass some test to determine whether one is a Scot or a Guest and since I am sure that guests will be immediately disenfranchised, we'll be rather stuck with it, won't we? Now that's the kind of democracy we like!



59

D Napier,

20/12/2007 12:53:24
#35 Tweedmouth. I suggest you read this report and look at the photographs therein:

http://www.feta.gov.uk/download/files/firstinsp.pdf
60

The Strategist,

20/12/2007 12:55:19
#70 AM2

No crystal ball. I spend a lot of my working time interpreting data on oil supply/production and am currently working with another company on a liquid fuel supply database inc conventional fuels, biofuels and others. The results are looking very scary.

Can't do lottery numbers or gold though.. Don't have the data.

Anyway as you're seemingly in a frivolous mood today I thought you might be interested in this.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2007/dec/19/dailyexpress.pressandpublishing
61

D Napier,

20/12/2007 13:01:40
#62 Ard Righ.

Please tell me one SCOTTISH engineering company which is capable of constructing this new bridge.
62

Rob,

Moray 20/12/2007 13:07:33
Morris, Yes, we do pay a bit more for a few things - oil, food, and the usual basket of measured items. However, we don't pay anything like what you do for property (Well, until recently at least) so there is a cost balance to our rural existence up here. Inverness and Aberdeen are reasoanble providers of goods and we are blessed with wonderful and skilled trades people for most of our needs. There are many blessings in just living here.

Price differentials ebb one way and then the other - that's part of economic reality and in the end it's up to you to make those choices. I've made mine - I live here because I want to and accept those realities and the costs that come with it. But don't tell me that I don't have a voice in Scotland because I think devolving from the UK is a looney idea and the most serious threat to the economy of Scotland.

AM2 - see you in jail mate!!

63

Mirrorman,

Vermont...(moonlight on) 20/12/2007 13:15:06
#62

For such a prestigious project only the best architects and engineers should be approached. Might I suggest Norman Foster and Arup. After all they designed and built the Millenium bridge in London from St Pauls to the Tate.The Scottish Exec might however want to include a caveat in the contract about no pedestrian walkways although I believe Fifers are known to be notoriously quick on their feet.
64

Jock MacTamson,

Highlands 20/12/2007 13:53:00
All I want to say is that the estimate should be within a percentage of the actual final bill. Bring in a company that builds bridges and has done this on budget in the past.
65

Jock MacTamson,

Highlands 20/12/2007 13:53:31
All I want to say is that the estimate should be within a percentage of the actual final bill. Bring in a company that builds bridges and has done this on budget in the past.
66

Jock MacTamson,

Highlands 20/12/2007 13:57:20
All I want to say is that the estimate should be within a percentage of the actual final bill. Bring in a company that builds bridges and has done this on budget in the past.
67

BMeister,

20/12/2007 14:17:39
Jock, that may be all you wanted to say but did you want to say it 3 times, or are you helping them boost their ratings like the wonky comment counter
68

W Smith,

Middle East 20/12/2007 14:25:31
Doesn't Kirsty Wark get a say in this bridge design?

Hopefully, Ms Wark and her husband can make a documentary on this new bridge and sell it to the BBC and make another £200,000+.

Maybe wee Wendy can set this up?
69

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 20/12/2007 14:34:27
35. Tweedmouth: The Golden Gate Bridge was completed in 1937 not 1930 and is about to undergo a complete cable restoration at a cost of $30M:

http://goldengatebridge.org/projects/documents/Main_Cable_posters_02.pdf
70

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 20/12/2007 14:36:08
-- Morris, Yes, we do pay a bit more for a few things.

Like for a house; where a UK£1 casino money is now worth 20p.

Now the men o moray and huntly loon will leap to its defence for they have the their usual love of money without any understanding of it.

Status quo.
71

Incandescent,

20/12/2007 15:11:24
#79 & #81 - D Napier, A.K.A. "The Bridge Troll" finally makes an appearance! You must be over the moon that the head-in-the sand approach has been chosen? How do you like the price? :-)
72

LyonHearts,

le teil 20/12/2007 15:50:30
Why don't you guys join Europe properly and get funding from the EU for transport projects! The transport over here is first class and well funded! You lot however are still stuck with your little island " we're British, we're the greatest" mentality which is holding your country back!

These projects have been talked about for decades and nothing ever seems to get done! Public transport is not the priority it is over here! For instance why wasn't the Edinburgh suburban line re-opened? It wouldn't have been expensive and it would have linked up Morningside, Newington and several other areas of South Edinburgh and taken cars off the streets. Why? because there is not the will to make these projects work!
73

Lang Spoon,

Leith 20/12/2007 16:16:29
This is the wrong decision!

A tunnel should have been chosen for two reasons:

1) Weatherproof
2) Easy maintenance

Once again the cheap option has carried the day!

Can I predict the following? (not an original, but worth quoting)

The winning design (iconic, world-class, cutting edge etc etc) will be chosen by a panel including Kirsty Wark, and the designer will be a famous Spaniard with no previous bridge experience.

But then we never learn do we? Holyrood should have been a wake-up call, but it won't be.
74

Paul R,

20/12/2007 16:36:47
Why is it only being built as a dual 2-lane road? Surely it needs to be built as 3 lanes each way, especially if the existing bridge has to close at some point. The new bridge will link to the M9 (not the A90), so what happens if the old bridge has to close? All traffic for Edinburgh and the East coming over the bridge will be going through Newbridge an either Gogar or Hermiston Gait! Not exactly good planning is it?
75

D Napier,

20/12/2007 16:38:04
#91 Incandescent.

I'm over the moon. The costs are realistic even if the proposed timescale is not. I woudl suggest that at least 2 years should added to the programme to get through all the statutory procedures.

Lets just hope that John Carson and his ForthTAG cronies crawl back under their rock and are never seen or heard of again.


76

,

20/12/2007 16:49:12
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
77

mike3,

midlands 20/12/2007 16:56:19
Does that mean that under the Duckworth Barnett formula that people in England now get free prescription charges and capped council tax?
78

hottody,

Canada 20/12/2007 17:01:39
What a tirade of negativity, this is a much needed asset, get it built and stop complaining.
79

,

20/12/2007 17:08:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
80

purplekermit,

Scotland 20/12/2007 17:33:34
i live very near to where they want to build the new bridge and i think it's crazy, we here are going to have them building on it for 9 years which i can't stand.
81

hottody,

Canada 20/12/2007 17:36:11
Keep the 3 bridges - awesome for tourists. I'm sure there could be lots of uses for the old suspension bridge.
82

Incandescent,

20/12/2007 17:44:48
#95 D Napier

Quite a jump from the original £1.5-7 Bn is it not? Given that the cost estimates from Transport Scotland have immediately been shown to be nonsense, it's clear now that the bridge option was always preferred as it will (eventually) provide a highly visible ("world-class", "iconic" or whatever) symbol of their largesse to the people of Scotland (Central belt, at least). This is just the beginning of the upward spiral of cost and time involved. Legislation will I suspect be the least of the delays in this ill thought-out scheme. I imagine protests, legal challenges, delaying tactics against compulsory purchase orders, as well as compensation claims for property blight will be rife. Neither option is suitable - a causeway / tunnel / causeway east of Edinburgh is the truly forward thinking solution.
83

Incandescent,

20/12/2007 17:47:36
#100 purplekermit

So do I - no more than 200 yards away and that ENTIRE field will be a giant logistics site for a decade.
84

Incandescent,

20/12/2007 18:01:06
#95 D Napier

The timescale is indeed "unrealistic", though not in the direction you suggest. The Milau Bridge (cable-stayed) is half a kilometre longer than this folly, has 7 pylons instead of 3 and has a maximum road deck height of around 270m. Strange then, isn't it, that construction took 3 years at a cost of only £272 million? Enlighten me how, then, the proposed costs for this "iconic" (now widely recognised as a Scottish Parliament euphemism for "folly") structure can be considered reasonable? "World-class"? Well, it'll make Scotland look like a world-class ass to the international community, that's for sure!
85

Andrew Allan,

20/12/2007 18:24:03
#78., AM2.
‘Fascinating. So anyone advocating separatism now isn't seeking to "overthrow the legitimate government" of the United Kingdom (and I would certainly never think in such terms’

AM2, recollection tells me there are those, like yourself, who favour what David Cameron, who indeed want to overthrow the legitimate government of the United Kingdom, by legitimate means of the vote, much in the same way the SNP want Scotland to go.

86

Andrew Allan,

20/12/2007 18:42:03
#102., Incandescent.

Marketing of our country as a modernising forward thinking country is almost impossible unless it is seen to do so in a visable manner, it is true a tunnel will be cheaper in the long term, but how can you better a shot of our historic engineering, in the railway bridge, in the background, with the modern bridge in front, try selling Scotland with a photo of an ordinary tunnel with the old railway bridge in the background, it just doesn't do it visably, and so doesn't advertise very well for Scotland.
87

Incandescent,

20/12/2007 19:03:19
#108 Andrew Allan

Putting in a second bridge at a notorious bottleneck location is not particularly good marketing, methinks. Something similar to that which can be seen at www.cbbt.com, situated to the east of Edinburgh, would truly be forward thinking. More than anything, though, the projected cost is utterly obscene. It's truly beyond belief how Transport Scotland's "respected consulting engineers" can estimate a price already 5 times that of the astounding Milau Bridge, only for it to rise in a few short weeks to a stupendous four (or more) times even that!
88

The Ghost of Sir William Arrol,

The Forthy Bridge 20/12/2007 20:05:16
There's a huge energy supply crisis coming our way as global oil supplies start to run out. Expect a £10 toll for the new bridge which will be a bargain in comparison to £100 a gallon for petrol and diesel. Then petrol will rise to £500 a gallon as it becomes even more scarce! Like CRAGman recommends in his comments: the new bridge had better have provision for electrified heavy rail because it will be handling very little road traffic, if any, in 20 years time!
89

An English Voice™,

20/12/2007 20:58:39
So even the announcement of a new bridge sees the SNP sycophants ranting on about the big bad union.

And the usual multiple log-ins too!

How tediously predictable. Is there ever going to be a chance to have a decent conversation on these boards without the SNP Youth Wing ranting about how bad everyone and everything is?*

*Except for The Great Leader who, we all know, is absolutely perfect in every way. Hail Salmond!
90

An English Voice™,

20/12/2007 21:03:53
83. Foster designed that amazing 'Sky Bridge' in Millau, France....
91

D Napier,

20/12/2007 21:12:06
Incandescent. When are you going to realise that your proposal for a crossing to the east of Edinburgh is not what is needed.

It is in the wrong place - the majority of traffic from Fife goes to destinations to the west of Edinburgh city centre.
92

Comment is Free,

U.S. 20/12/2007 21:18:58
So in other news Alex Salmond has been exonerated by top officials. Why is this only appearing on bbc.com and not in the Scotsman as well? Could it be that it would contradict the tripe that is continually used in the attempts to scupper the reputation of the SNP? Maybe the bridge over the firth will be such a win-win situation that New Labour will join the Tories in the chains at Laughing Stocks.

The next question is, "Will Wendy Alexander be cleared of wrong-doing by top officials?" The answer seems to be tending towards the negative. If she is, there are serious questions to be asked about the investigating committees.
93

Robert12,

Edinburgh 20/12/2007 21:32:54
#24 there is already a park and ride in Rosyth (well, Inverkeithing actually) and it was there long before the Hermiston one! Fantastic service too!
94

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 20/12/2007 21:33:18
A bridge is better. Where is the view from a tunnel? Or Jack McConnel's?

I looked up 'iconic' in the big red dictionaty; no contemporary definition was given so I take it that iconic is the new 'sexy'.

This is where we need to encourage people into the engineering trade.
95

The Strategist,

20/12/2007 21:35:51
#115 AM2 ... It was a joke !! Dear oh dear and there was me trying to invoke a little Christmas spirit.

Anyway - here's a snippet from the FT for you to get your teeth into.

"The pound dropped to a four-month low against the dollar Thursday after the UK’s current account deficit surged to a record high in the third quarter.

Figures showed the current account deficit jumped to £20bn – far exceeding forecasts for a reading of £11.4bn – due to a substantial widening in the trade deficit and a marked shortfall in investment income.

Furthermore, past current account deficits were revised up markedly"

Seems to me the UK economy is rapidly going to hell in a handbag... What do you think?

96

Upbeat,

20/12/2007 21:36:38
107 Davieravie

You said ...

"its about time all lorries were forced by law to stay in the inside lane during the day (as on the Continent)..."

This is not entirely true. Parts of Germany do have sections of Autobahn with overtaking restrictions at certaintimes in most congested areas.In most other regions of Europe those places where problems with overtaking trucks might exist have dedicated slow lanes for heavy vehicles.

Anyway . Before you go suggesting this overtaking ban as some panacea, just look at the problem from the point of view of the Truck driver. You would place him for many hours just yards behind a large vehicle that is blocking his clear view ahead, and which is travelling at a marginally lower speed than the one he himself would choose. How would you like this typer of restriction while driving in your car ? How long before your attention started to 'flag ' in a similar situation ?

This is no problem on much of the continent as trucks all hold good speed across flat countryside, on well graded modern roads. Trucks have adequate power to hold constant speeds within a lower overall limit for longer etc. In these situations overtaking is therefore not necessary so frequently. When overtaking does become useful is passing heavy loads on hills. Lighter loaded vehicles do this swiftly and the time for the manouvre is much less.

Finally It may have escaped your notice, but the 80-85 Kph( 50 - 52 mph.) limit is much better policed in Europe. Trucks observe this limit. In the UK we expect and permit trucks to reach a maximum of 60 mph. This requires much more power...The fact that this high speed is far above that for which European trucks are designed to operate most efficiently, seems to have been overlooked somewhere. ! Lower the maximum truck speed limit on Motorways in the UK and the problem of gradual overtaking taking miles would largely disappear.

97

No thanks...,

Just off the Fiferelite motorway... 20/12/2007 21:57:24
So, we get a new bridge, and where are these people going in their droves. Ah yes, Edinburgh, they will queue to come in and queue to leave with their dirty dangerous polluting cars, snarling the West of Edinburgh, how dull. Fifers wouldnt have it in their towns. I would suggest first fix the current bridge (see what the costs are) and then consider a new bridge... away from Edinburgh please. Sick of people who want to be cheap with their mortgages but eat their pie and come in and out each day. Life style choice at the end of the day!
98

An English Voice™,

20/12/2007 22:28:00
120. Ah, The Strategist has returned.

I reckon this pseudonym belongs to 'World View', it has his whiney attitude.
99

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 20/12/2007 22:42:44
-- The pound dropped to a four-month low against the dollar Thursday after the UK’s current account deficit surged to a record high in the third quarter.

-- Seems to me the UK economy is rapidly going to hell in a handbag.

The £UK is casino money.

Restrucuring after the 2008 global collapse will be done by the USA, China, India and Russia.

Independent nations like Norway, New Zealand and Finland will fare OK. Scots will join them or SINK.
100

truthsleuth,

South of the Border (Thank heavens) 20/12/2007 23:13:16
£4.2billion NOW - what an icon - does this include additional road construction required
My Estimates yesterday are already out of date
At this price and using my usual comparison with tolls and cost of M6 Toll
Cost to build
M6 Toll - £200million
Car toll £2
HGV Toll £8
New Forth Bridge
Cost to build £4.2 billion

Estimated New Forth Bridge toll
Car £42
HGV £162

If tolls are not to be charged then On this basis the Scottish (and English and Welsh) taxpayers will be footing their replacement.
What I want the Bridge Supporters to tell me is what do they and more importantly the No Toll idiots propose to cut to pay for the damn thing.

PS Rumour has it the M6 Toll loses money.
101

The Strategist,

20/12/2007 23:18:26
#123 AM2

Who was talking about independence? But seeing you raised the point I note that Norway, Denmark and Sweden are all running a current account surplus.

#125 An English Voice

If you have nothing useful to contribute then I strongly suggest you don't bother.
102

truthsleuth,

20/12/2007 23:22:51
#121 Upbeat
Lots of sympathy with the truck driver but absolurelt none with the B*****y monsters some of them oimpose on other road users.
Back in the 1970s the M6 Northbound from Jct10 operated a no overtaking policy for HGVs it worked perfectly.
The real solution is to reduce the maximum weight of the B****Y lorries then get the long distance heavy traffic on the rails by giving some of the subsidy these monsters get to improve rail freight access.
PS - Whingin HAULIERS Diesel fuel price Increase
Did you see the bit on News 24 where a road haulier said he had REDUCED HIS COSTS BY REPLACING HIS HEAVY LORRY FLEET WITH SMALLER LORRIES.
103

Incandescent,

Logistics yard for the forseeable future 20/12/2007 23:54:31
116 - D Napier

By your own (eventual) admission, you are a commuter to Edinburgh from Fife. You have yet to explain (with at least some form of proof) your civil engineering qualifications and why a bridge is supposedly better. You will continue to enjoy the benefits of Fife living while my home is blighted for the best part of a decade by a heavy construction logistics yard less than 200 yards away. I suppose I should just "take one for the team"so you can cut down on your commuting time and avoid the crippling Edinburgh Council Tax, right?
104

Incandescent,

20/12/2007 23:56:29
AM2

I've refrained from rising to your comments for so long but, in this thread, I will say "butt out" with your labour rhetoric - there are others who wish to prioperly debate an important issue not connected to your recent bereavement.
105

Incandescent,

20/12/2007 23:59:29
129

Often I do not agree with your opinions but, in this case, SPOT ON!
106

Incandescent,

imminent hell of wide loads, muddy roads and noise 21/12/2007 00:12:38
D Napier

I just got off the phone with my friend, who is a metallurgist with Airbus. He told me that, for a fraction of that budget, they could actually spin carbon fibre cables for the existing bridge that would support - size for size - almost ten times the weight of steel cables, with zero corrosion issues. It appears that firm of "internationally reknowned" consulting engineers that nobody has heard of before failed to consider this option.
107

Comment is Free,

U.S. 21/12/2007 00:16:12
Alex Salmond is a civil servant right? He's elected by the people. Therefore that means that he is in the clear.

The thing that Unionists will not say is that this just strengthens the argument for minimally more devolution not less, if not independence. That Salmond is not elected to serve solely as First Minister and Executive in Chief of the Scottish Government, but also must carry a constituency shows weaknesses in the current devolution set-up. The question this whole inquiry exposes is the question of the system of governance in Scotland, not the Scottish Government.

The Scottish Government must be given more power from Westminster so that the First Minister and Executive in Chief is not linked to a constituency. If this aforementioned structure would have been in place the whole question of conflict of interest would not have been an issue in the first place.

As far as the committees of the Electoral Commission needing to be examined if Wendy is found not guilty, they would still need to be investigated on the question of the transparency of the operation. The New Labour Party control the House of Commons at Westminster to whom the power of conducting elections has been reserved. Therefore as the Westminster New Labour government would be over-seeing the conduction of the inquiry into the actions of the New Labour Party leader in Scotland, why would the New Labour Party at the UK level not have as much of not more suspicion thrown on them than is currently being focused on First Minister Salmond?

Transparency is something that the SNP have had to deal with forever and a day due to the Unionist parties. For the first time, the Unionist parties are forced to be as transparent as the SNP always has been required to be. When the light shines upon a shady operation, the heads begin to roll and the telling starts. The SNP won't be laughing, they'll be rolling along.
108

Incandescent,

21/12/2007 00:25:37
134 - Comment

Agreed but irrelevant to this thread. Oh, and Alex Salmond is a politician, Civil Servants are required by their conditions of contract to do the bidding of their elected ministers while remaining politically neutral in the course of their duties.
109

Incandescent,

21/12/2007 00:27:49
134 - and the Prime Minister of the UK must also by definition be an elected Member of Parliament with a constituency, though god alone knows how they can be expected to service that responsibility on top of the whole country and international relations...
110

Comment is Free,

U.S. 21/12/2007 00:38:13
Incandescant, thank you for the info regarding the nature of politicians and civil servants. The "divided by a common language" thing is coming out again ;) This side of the Pond politicians at their best are called civil servants, and at their worst they receive other interesting notations. In any event, best wishes for the resolution of this whole affair and hope the bridges hold up well.

111

Incandescent,

21/12/2007 00:52:12
138 - AM2

If you've gone to bed, I hope you read this in the morning...

"Not a labour supporter"? You're clearly clinically insane! Was it your other persona who's being griping and moaning since labour were deposed? I just don't know what to say about such a ludicrous comment.
112

Incandescent,

21/12/2007 00:54:58
137 Free speech

Thanks. Unfortunately, the whole issue is about the very need for another bridge, especially here, where we're lumbered with two already at an illogical chokepoint. See my previous posts on this thread for an idea. We need something of the big-thinking nature that you lot tend to do, like www.cbbt.com, for example.
113

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 21/12/2007 01:01:47
Hello All,

I searched through the posts prior to this post and I couldn't find anyone asking a simple but straightforward question:

How is it that within 48 hours, the publicly projected and stated costs of the bridge went from 1.4-1.7 BILLION pounds, to 4.2 BILLION pounds?

Did inflation increase to catastrophic levels within the last 48 hours?

The estimate for the TUNNEL, which the Powers that Be, considered to be too EXPENSIVE, was 2.2-2.5 BILLION pounds.

So again I must ask, Just how did the price of the 4 lane bridge TRIPLE within 48 hours and further, why are you Scots not hacked off to the proverbial 'nth degree'?

Do you just sit back and smile while the politicians rob you blind?

At least here in the USA, we're screaming to our Congressmen, Senators, the Prez, Media, and yes, even going so far as to file lawsuits to snip such idiocy in the bud, before it blossoms into utter catastrophe.

Please tell me that the MAJORITY of Scots, who have the legal and financial power to bring these rabid spending politicians into line, are NOT going to abandon their rights to protect themselves from such blatant theft (and possibly graft, consider the TRIPLING of costs)?

Cheers from the Rockies
114

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 21/12/2007 01:11:55
Hello Yok,

Re your 126,

Don't look to us here in America to reconstruct anything, the swine politicians are doing their best to bankrupt us to the very depths of the Marianas!!

The Social Progressive Dems came into power Nov. 2006, promising loads of reforms, the ABOLITION of all Earmarks (pork barrel funding of 'pet projects' back in home districts), open and above board accounting to the public, etc., etc., etc.

Guess what? The SP Dems have over 9000 earmarks in the "Omnibus" bill, which is somewhere between 3400 PAGES and 3500 PAGES long, and NO ONE has bothered to try and read the whole thing, BEFORE voting on it.

The full accounting of the 9000 earmarks is not known, but the LOW estimate is 11 BILLION dollars, while those
'in the know' estimate it will be closer to 22 BILLION dollars, and that does NOT include all of the frittered spending the SP Dems (and no few lunatic Republicans want as well) want.

Mind you, some of these projects are insane: $700,000 for a bike trail in the same state that recently had a MAJOR BRIDGE COLLAPSE, closing off a major interstate highway (and politicians in that state are whining about where they're going to get the money to rebuild the bridge), then there's a bridge in Alaska, which connect to an Island with about 100 inhabitants, which will cost 250 MILLION dollars to build, then there's $200,000 for a Post Office Museum in Vegas, a few million on a Woodstock Museum, rodent research in Alaska, and the list goes on.

Don't look to America to rebuild anything; the Powers that Be are firmly ensconced in a near manic obsession to literally create a Neo-Great Depression.

We're toast Yok, we're Toast.

The Chin-wa of the PRC will take over, and more's the pity, considering their history with freedoms of any sort.

Cheers from the Rockies
115

Incandescent,

21/12/2007 01:27:42
142 Neanderthal

I asked your question verbatim on this very article right back at the beginning - my post appears to no longer be there! My post at 104 alludes to this. I agree - how can they tell us that a simple bridge like this can cost in the region of 20 times the most "iconic" and "word-class" bridge to be built in Europe in the last 40 years?
116

Incandescent,

21/12/2007 02:21:44
D Napier

Here's a taste of what will hold up your effortless commute from Fife (I'm guessing DB)

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/scotland/Inquiry-ends-at-last-.3611624.jp
117

Incandescent,

21/12/2007 02:23:56
neanderthal75

I, for one, shall be using all legal means, including interdicts and class action suits to halt this (iconic) folly.
118

noswod,

The Toun Honestus 21/12/2007 11:42:12
If you want a cable stayed bridge "ask a Frenchman" the quotes of £4.2bn are out of court and the timescales for building. The Viaduc de Millau cost e394m +20m for the toll booths, started planning in 1987 and opened on the 16 Dec 2004 7 years in total. The bridge building started on 16 Oct 2001 and opened on the 16 Dec 2004. The costs and timeframes are so out of skew its amazing. I accept its to be built in water but a factor of ten ? No doubt the Frenchies Eiffage Group will be licking their lips at the prospect of getting £4.2bn for knocking off another cable stayed bridge. So I hope the SNP has a phone that can dail 0033 ASK for EIFFEL (yes its the same mob who built the tower) and they could get a deal, also if they ring London and ASK for Norman Foster the bridge will also look pretty. Meanwhile the FRB will fa doon in three years.
119

Yankee girl,

California 22/12/2007 00:01:22
Congratulations on your new cable-stayed bridge, Scotland! As an American bridge engineer, I've been following this story with interest and am excited to see a decision has been made.

#130 Incandescent, I'm sorry your back yard will be a construction staging zone. No one is ever happy about taking one for the team like that, but watching the bridge take shape from your vantage point will be spectacular, nevertheless. As for your comment at #133 about carbon fiber cables, I can speak to that somewhat. It's true that the carbon strength in proportion to its weight is impressive, but I'm afraid that it's not true that it is cheaper that steel. I was somewhat involved in a project that tried to build an advance composite cable-stayed bridge and the cost of carbon was so prohibitive that they went with steel cables and advance composite superstructure, partially composite tower. The lighter weight of the deck presented an aerodynamic problem and had to be compensated for. It was such a new application of the material that there were a seemingly infinite number of issues that had to be investigated and callibrated through laboratory research. We civil engineers like materials like concrete and steel that are straightforward and not finnicky about installation methods and strict proprietary chemistry. In the end, the project died.

But, there is an advance composite bridge in Scotland in case you're interested. It's a pedestrian bridge on a golf course in Aberfeldy.

As for the Milau Viaduct, everyone always holds that up to the rest of us as an example of bridge cost. I don't know how the French built it so cheaply, but maybe we'll be talking about its corrosion in 40 years, who knows? As for the 4 billion pounds for this project, it doesn't sound that far off, considering the bridge is over water, surrounded by environmentally sensitive areas, etc. But don't be surprised if the cost goes up - from the tone of this article, it sounds like the cost
120

Yankee girl,

California 22/12/2007 00:04:00
(cont.) Sheesh

. . . it sounds like the cost will go up because not everything has yet been considered.
121

DP,

22/12/2007 12:10:57
In the early 90s the cable-stayed, 5km long Second Severn Crossing cost £330m. Fifteen years later we are being told that a circa 1.5km long cable-stayed bridge is going to cost at least ten times more?

A 2005 Faber Maunsell report into the options for the crossing quotes (in 2003 prices) costs of between £300m for a road-only bridge and £600m for a combined road and railway bridge. These proposals are for a suspension bridge, which are usually more expensive than the cable stayed bridge type announced today.

The report can be read at http://www.feta.gov.uk/download/Second4.pdf

The chosen bridge may include light rail (tram) tracks - a design which the Faber Maunsell report puts at £360m in 2003 prices.

MSPs should therefore be asked how the cost of this scheme has increased by 10 times in 2 years in today's announced figures. It can't be the short project timescale - the Second Severn Crossing was constructed in three and a half years. Even allowing for inflation, the original costs from the Faber Maunsell report should still be less than £1 billion in 2016 money.

Someone is taking the Scottish tax payer for a ride here.
122

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 23/12/2007 05:41:10
Hello DP and Incandescent,

Gentlemen, I commend your common sense and stalwart positions!

I must say however, the 'ride' on which you Scots are being taken, presents only one question really:

When the MSP's are done with you all, do you get a cigarette and a kiss afterwards, and will they have used 'protection' during the fleecing?


Politicians on both sides of the Pond, quite literally believe that there is no end to tax revenues, no end to the ways to thieve that tax revenue from the average citizen, and no end to the myriad ways to SPEND that tax revenue!

The coming Hyper-Depression is going to make the Great Depression look like a roll in the hay; people back then, at a minimum, knew how to make do with virtually nothing.

Most people today (particularly those under 30, haven't a clue about deprivations.

They'll learn though, O how they shall learn.

Cheers from the Rockies.

 

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