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Blair braced for huge revolt over Trident renewal

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Published Date:
12 March 2007
Commons vote on Wednesday could see biggest Labour revolt since 1997 Scotland leading resistance to Trident, both inside parliament and beyond Uncertainties over legality of replacing Trident
Key quote
"While we have been having this debate these last six months, Iran and North Korea have continued with their nuclear programmes and China has test-fired new ballistic missiles - not exactly signs of nations hanging on our every word to see what leadership we might show" - LEE WILLETTS, ROYAL UNITED SERVICES INSTITUTE

Story in full IT IS set to be one of parliament's most tumultuous weeks since Labour came to power in 1997, with a Commons vote that will determine whether Britain retains a nuclear arsenal until 2050 and beyond.

The last time MPs debated an issue of such grave importance for Britain's security and global standing was in 2003, and, just as the decision to go to war in Iraq opened deep fissures within the Labour ranks, so the government's plan to replace the Trident missile system now threatens to tear the party asunder - as many as 100 of Labour's 352 MPs could vote against the government on Wednesday night.

Most troubling for the government, the rebellion extends far beyond the "usual suspects" - at least one minister and several junior parliamentary aides will quit in opposition to replacing Trident, which critics say could cost as much as £76 billion.

The government insists remaining a nuclear-armed power is the only "responsible" choice in an uncertain world, and rejects suggestions that replacing Trident will undermine diplomatic attempts to stop states such as Iran and North Korea seeking nuclear weapons.

Should the government get its way, the next generation of nuclear missiles, like Trident, will be borne on submarines sailing from Faslane on the Clyde. And Scotland is leading the resistance, both inside parliament and beyond it.

Nigel Griffiths, the South Edinburgh MP, is said to be ready to vote against the government and therefore quit as deputy leader of the Commons. Jim Devine, who inherited the late Robin Cook's Livingston seat, will resign as a parliamentary private secretary, as will Stephen Pound, an aide to Hazel Blears, the Labour chairman.

A BBC survey of 101 Labour back-benchers found at least 64 were prepared to oppose the renewal of Trident. With potentially dozens of other undeclared rebels lying in wait, Wednesday could see the biggest revolt since 1997.

It comes despite intense personal lobbying by Tony Blair. The Prime Minister is understood to have called several "moderate" rebels to No 10 last week for one-on-one meetings. According to one source, he "pleaded" with his MPs not to defy a three-line Labour whip on the issue. He will continue lobbying this week, as will Gordon Brown, the Chancellor.

Ominously for ministers, the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament (CND) yesterday said more senior Labour figures were expected to come out against Mr Blair. John Ainslie, of CND Scotland, said 14 out of the 39 Scottish Labour MPs had previously signalled their objection to Trident, along with 12 Liberal Democrats and six SNP MPs.

This means more than half of the 59 Scottish MPs are likely to vote against the government.

The Vanguard subs that carry the Trident missiles will start retiring after 2020, and ministers say the lead-times on building a new fleet are so long that a decision must be taken now. But critics say the timing of this week's vote owes more to politics than to military or industrial causes.

"It is being rushed through as part of Tony Blair's legacy," Mr Ainslie said.

Thanks to the support of the Tories, the government is in little danger of losing the vote, but ministers are frantically manoeuvring to put pressure on the rebels to fall into line.

Des Browne, the Defence Secretary, yesterday accused the rebels of ignoring the security nuclear weapons bring. "They sleep soundly in their beds at night because we have nuclear weapons," he said.

Hillary Benn, the International Development Secretary and Labour deputy leadership contender, said replacing Trident was "the right thing to do" because "in the differently dangerous world in which we live now, it doesn't make sense for us to give up our nuclear weapons".

Behind the scenes, the Labour whips' office is using "every trick in the book" to stop Labour MPs voting against the government. At least one would-be rebel has been sent on a foreign "fact-finding" trip this week, while those showing loyalty are being offered incentives, not least the jobs likely to be vacated by Messrs Griffiths, Devine and Pound.

But a last-minute legal row is hampering Mr Blair's attempts to win his party round.

Ministers are refusing to publish crucial advice on the legality of renewing Britain's nuclear deterrent, antagonising Labour rebels and other critics.

The anti-nuclear lobby has questioned the legality of any decision to replace Trident, arguing that the international Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) - to which Britain is a signatory - forbids the construction of new weapons.

But the government rejects those arguments, insisting in a white paper last year that "retention of a nuclear deterrent is fully consistent with our international legal obligations," including Article 6 of the NPT.

That clause commits signatories to take "effective measures" to end the nuclear arms race and bring about nuclear disarmament, and ministers argue that that does not prohibit replacing existing weapons.

Officials have privately confirmed to The Scotsman that ministers took legal advice from Lord Goldsmith, the Attorney General, when drawing up the white paper. But the Ministry of Defence, the Foreign Office and the Attorney General's office all refused to say what Lord Goldsmith had advised about the legality of replacing Trident.

His involvement in the Trident decision has led to comparisons with the decision to go to war in Iraq. The attorney's advice that the 2003 invasion was legal was the focus of a protracted row that ended with its publication by the government in 2005.

Gordon Prentice, a Labour MP who plans to vote against renewal on Wednesday, has tabled parliamentary questions asking for Lord Goldsmith's advice on nuclear weapons to be published but he has been rebuffed.

Ministers are treating the legal advice like a "state secret", Mr Prentice said. "If the government is going to say unequivocally that it has the right to renew Trident within the NPT, it should be quite possible for ministers to explain that position to parliament by publishing the advice."

The Attorney General's office said: "In accordance with long-standing convention, we are not able to disclose outside government the fact or the substance of the law officers' advice."

Meanwhile, Lee Willetts, of the Royal United Services Institute, a security think-tank, dismissed suggestions that Britain could set a significant international example by disarming. "While we have been having this debate these last six months, Iran and North Korea have continued with their nuclear programmes and China has test-fired new ballistic missiles - not exactly signs of nations hanging on our every word to see what leadership we might show," he said.

THE THREATS THAT JUSTIFY DETERRENT


THE government argues that Britain's nuclear weapons would only ever be used in the event of an extreme threat to the national interest. But Trident was designed and built as a Cold War weapon that could be used against the USSR. With the fall of communism, what are the threats ministers believe justify another generation of nuclear weapons?

• RUSSIA
Moscow is investing heavily in new missile technology, inspiring recent American attempts to relaunch the Star Wars missile defence shield. Russia has also been exporting military technology to states including Iran and Syria. And with Mr Putin due to step down next year, some analysts fear he will be replaced by an even more assertive nationalist.

• IRAN
Tehran insists that it is only planning to build a civilian nuclear power industry, but most Western analysts believe the country is also seeking to develop a military capability, possibly to expand Iran's regional influence, possibly as an insurance policy against US hostility.

• NORTH KOREA
The Stalinist "Hermit State" has made no secret of its nuclear programme, which its erratic leader Kim Jong-Il has used as a key bargaining chip in his painful relations with the outside world.

North Korean rhetoric over nuclear weapons ebbs and flows, but there is now little doubt that the country has acquired some sort of military capability. North Korea conducted an underground nuclear explosive test in October.

• THE UNKNOWN
With a lead time of more than 15 years and a life span of up to 30 years, any decision about a new nuclear weapons system must be based on long-term calculations. To a degree then, Trident is an insurance policy against an uncertain future.

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1

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12/03/2007 01:33:36
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2

Big Wullie,

Glasgow 12/03/2007 01:39:30

We need some kind of deterrent against our loony neighbouring countries.
Without it other countries would just invade us.
What better than Trident.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WhJUjhequ4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_at86XQTjI

3

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12/03/2007 01:43:59
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12/03/2007 02:02:37
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12/03/2007 02:49:31
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Big Wullie,

Glasgow 12/03/2007 02:54:21

# famous 15 at 3

I am not against protecting our state if this means trident then so be it
We must be protected from Rogue States at all times

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WhJUjhequ4

7

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12/03/2007 03:01:14
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8

Bill, Dunblane,

12/03/2007 03:04:43

5 - BW

I know for CERTAIN that a lot of people don't read my posts - and good on them. I have no monoploly of ideas, jings, I disagree with myself on ocassion!

And yes, I have no right to stop other posters posting their views.

What I was alluding to regarding your posts, is that you constantly post the same thing, day in day out.

You have a go at MSP's for not taking up your case - I have to admit, I don't know what your case is - I never respond to 'in your face' type posts.

If all the MSP's from all the partie's don't want to touch your case, by and large I would be wondering why myself.

9

citizen smith,

Midlothian 12/03/2007 03:10:09

I would like to see us trident free, but with a larger more conventional army, fully equiped with the tools to do the job, new ships for the Navy and more planes for the RAF, with good medical care for all service men and woman.
I would also like to see some form of National Service for all.

10

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12/03/2007 03:32:15
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11

Big Wullie,

Glasgow 12/03/2007 03:37:30

Citizen Smith#9
Spot on mate our armies are often asked to fight without the proper equipment.
In some cases delapidated equipment is being used resulting in guns Jamming etc etc.
In some cases our troups are also having to buy their own equipment before leaving to fight.
This should never happen and our MSPs should take stalk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WhJUjhequ4

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12/03/2007 03:43:45
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12/03/2007 04:01:35
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14

www.scottwebb.co.uk.,

12/03/2007 04:46:05

Morning Ladies......mmmmmmmmmmm sleep.........quite a unique experience ...........ANYWAY, moving swiftly on. There is a documentary i recommend you all watch.
Its called.....Arsenal of Hypocrisy :) http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-48359660271548...

15

Peter Cherbi,

Edinburgh 12/03/2007 05:04:21

I doubt the revolt will be much ... kind of like being savaged by a violent hamster again ?

Considering the way other countries are acting just now, I don't think theres much of a chance to get rid of it anyway ...

Have to say, was heck of an inpressed when I saw one of these things once and met some of those who served on it.

16

www.scottwebb.co.uk.,

12/03/2007 05:20:37

Comment@15 Peter, morning mate.....you think they're big.....you should see the these babies :) http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/slbm/941.htm

17

Peter Cherbi,

Edinburgh 12/03/2007 05:28:20

Morning Scott

Yes .. the Typhoon - probably so big it will show up as a bulge in the ocean. Can the russians still afford to send them out ?

I've seen the old Polaris boats, but I think the most interesting one I ever saw was the type 21 uboat at a museum in Germany. Quite advanced for it's time.

... time for a game of Silent Hunter 3 later on then !

18

www.scottwebb.co.uk.,

12/03/2007 05:52:41

HE HE Peter, did you see the stats on them ? Some of them were 48,000 tonnes submerged and could do 27 Knots.....Thats some engineering feat.

19

Peter Cherbi,

Edinburgh 12/03/2007 06:16:45

It sure is, Scott, but I'm sure that was one of the things which killed off the old Soviet Union ... spending all that on subs & the military & everyone lining up for bread everday...

Incidentally, 48,000 tonnes also relates to the submerged weight of a well known british politican who likes jaguars ... doesn't it ?

20

Guga,

Rockall 12/03/2007 06:29:23

Am I still banned?

21

Guga,

Rockall 12/03/2007 06:32:23

Obviously not.

Anyway, it will be very interesting to see how many New Labour MP's value their integrity over their party perks; like ministerial cars, salaries and allowances.

It will probably be the final nail in the coffin for Labour's "ethical" foreign policy.

If they want nuclear weapons, base them in the Thames, preferably outside their own little house.

22

BillyB,

12/03/2007 07:57:12

This is not just a crisis for blair, it is the kiss of death for brown. Rembember it was he not tony who announced to the bbc via a guilhall bankers meeting last june that trident2 was coming. Now our latter day john mclean will have to rely on the government payroll and the tories to get it through. Let's sink this overated careerist and trident with him.

23

eric,

lothian 12/03/2007 07:58:07

Some bills dont get paid NOW silly person!

24

jim lad,

the capital 12/03/2007 08:01:10

#23
My understanding is, defense is not a devolved power so Trident would stay. Whatever your opinions about Trident is, and everyone is entitled to their opinion nobody is right or wrong because it just depends on your own view.
Back to the vote, yes it will go through with or without the Tories vote because even with abstentions which i think is wrong there will be enough yes votes to carry the day.Even with a split board here , at least you are speaking your minds not like the abstainers who are fence sitters no good to man nor beast.

25

exiledscot,

12/03/2007 08:03:53

Why don't we have a pan-European deterrent rather than each individual country spending a fortune on its own defence? What is the EU about? It should be more than economic union, no? Generally speaking, European countries defend the same fundamental principles so why can't we get together and agree on a common defence policy? It would cost far less to the taxpayer but still ensure our defence against whatever threats are out there.

26

Scaramouche,

12/03/2007 08:27:38

Trident??? NO!!! Tell them to fork off!!!

27

scottishcoffindodgerno1,

Edinburgh we are in it to win it 12/03/2007 08:28:37

sounds like big wullie is guilty as charged

28

David MacVicar,

web 12/03/2007 08:35:21

This is the usual storm in a teacup prior to the vote. This close to the Scottish and UK elections the vote will go through. In this case the Tories will help anyway. As usual, Trident is in Westminster interest. That being so it will be voted in.

I wish we could see how each Scottish MP will vote.

29

livilion,

livingston 12/03/2007 08:35:58

What is the point of having a system that you can never use?

Are we really capable of initiating a first strike, and if we did what would be the consequences?

If we are not, what consolation would there be in sitting amongst the glowing smoking ruins and have a submarine somewhere in the Atlantic wipe out cities full of innocent people who, like us, had absolutely no say in setting these things off in the first place?

There are 7 rusting hulks laid up in Rosyth still waiting for their nuclear reactors to be decommissioned. slowly leaking radiation into air and the waters of the Forth.

When will this work be completed, where is the nuclear waste to be deposited and how much am I going to have to pay for this priviledge?

£15-25billion to build these vessels, how much are they going to cost untill they are decommissioned?

What is likely to happen when, as is entirely probable, the technology becomes available, if it has not already, to detect and track these subs on patrol?

1 nuclear depth charge, and no more independent nuclear deterent, water poluted for hundreds of years by radiation, now what are you gonna do?

This would all be bad enough if we did not have troops being sent to Iraq and Afghanistan with insufficient equipment or support to defend themselves because we can't afford to supply them with what they need.

In view of the hundred or so Labour MPs rebelling against the whip, does it not show the likes of Union Joke and former CND activist Cathy Jamieson in a particularly unflattering light, given their recent performances on the subject in Holyrood?

30

conservative,

Fife 12/03/2007 08:48:42

It doesn't matter what it costs. Does everyone believe that wars can never happen? If we disarm ourselves our children or their children my have to fight again and maybe lose.

The costs of defence maybe upset some who'd like to spend the money on something else, but above all else is the need to be able to defend ourselves or deter an attacker.

31

Dod fae Orkney,

North Sea 12/03/2007 09:00:07

Once Scotland is independent we can decide ourselves what defence capability we require.
Roll on May

32

Joe M.,

12/03/2007 09:08:05

Time to bin trident and bin the Blair Government and David Cameron:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eiov7o095E

Independence, all other nations prefer it.

33

Firozali A.Mulla MBA PhD,

Dar-Es-Salaam Tanzania 12/03/2007 09:09:04

I read the comments that are to come 2015 2035,. Please read this that is BREAKING relly BREAKING news sad bad call this what you want to.

On 11th March 2007>>>>
I watched the Sky New. Emma, the reporter, looked sad and sick of stating, “There were blasts outsiders the place of the conference of the peacekeepers and the other sad news that followed was “There were ten (10) Military Hospitals before now there is ONE (1) in UK. The situation looked pathetic.
Talk of Iraq seems to be tires and falling apart. How can it keep Iraq from breaking the split? The mothers and the families of the English soldiers are crying fowl.
USA still wants to hold on to the Iraqi reign.
Is this really democracy or the vultures flying above the IRAQ or a lone ranger ruling Iraq?
Is Iraq in the map at all with so many states from outside trying to claim “Their piece of oil or land in the sand dunes marred with blood from 2001?”
May I know more on exactly the position of IRAQ as viewed by the you? Then we talk.
Now it is in pieces.

34

Julian,

12/03/2007 09:37:25

Big Wullie # 1, MSP's are not responsible for voting on trident so you don't need to worry about them spending time on that rather than concentrating on your issues.

35

Neil Mac,

skye 12/03/2007 09:40:00

I seem to remember T Blair declaring that the war on terror was the UK's greatest challenge. I fail to see how Trident is going to help us fight this so-called war; perhaps Blair and his co-conspirators plan to destroy the next identified cell of suicide bombers in London, Birmingham or Manchester with a pre- emptive nuclear strike.

Scotland must rise and say no to the obscene presence of these weapons on our shores- in the event of a rogue state hitting the UK with a nuclear attack guess who is going to get it first? Yes - Scotland. It is one reason that Scottish independence will be resisted by Westminster with every dirty trick available to those clinging to the idea that the UK is still a great world power.

36

jim lad,

the capital 12/03/2007 09:40:18

#33 Dod
Sorry to spoil your dream, but thats a long long way down the road if ever.Keep thinking like that and you are going to be one dissapointed nationalist come the 4th May in my opinion.

37

morris,

Edinburgh 12/03/2007 10:39:43

There will no doubt be a "revolt" along the lines of Nigel Griffiths,but will it be stage managed in that the total votes "For trident" will still win the day? This is not REVOLT.
This is stage manged electioneering!
The Labour Party did exactly the same during the referendum on devolution.They said one thing whilst funds were used to oppose devolution!
Some branches were pro some were anti.All used Labour party funds!
Hypocrisy is closer than revolt I think!
If Nigel Griffiths and UNISON turncoat Jim Devine really oppose Trident,quit the New Labour Party,seek election under a party who oppose it,not stay in New Labour and help implement it!
NEW LABOUR = SAME OLD TORY

38

morris,

Edinburgh 12/03/2007 10:42:52

39
Sorry to spoil your day Jim lad,but opinion polls say that Dod is more up to date than you are!
That makes you look a bit of a plonker in my opinion .

39

Lesley,

Edinburgh 12/03/2007 10:44:00

What is the moderator playing at - removing all these comments, and leaving the senseless rants of Big Wullie in place???

40

Privateman,

Anywhere but here 12/03/2007 10:46:19

#42 Reading Public, that'll be in the same way that the US "shares" intelligence with us, its nearest ally?

41

Scaramouche,

12/03/2007 10:53:00

I think a bigger worry is the satellite Britain put into orbit the other day.

Its name ........ SKYNET.

For god's sake ..... Sarah Connors ... RUUUUUNNN!!!

42

zander c,

scotland 12/03/2007 10:57:11

i want the uk to renew trident. we need to protect ourselves as well as keep others in line. although, id also like to see some of the nukes being housed in other parts of the uk, not just here in scotland.

43

IWright,

Edinburgh 12/03/2007 11:03:54

There wil be a revolt...and then the government will get its way. Certain Scottish unionists will do just enough to make them look right in front of the electorate but it's business as usual for the British state.

44

jim lad,

the capital 12/03/2007 11:07:10

#43 morris
So because i dont share your views i am a plonker, what kind of person are you when you can't just say in your opinion you don't agree with me. I at least pointed out in my comment to Dod #33 it was only my opinion but you can't handle that not everyone agrees with you so you hurl insuts, not the best way to win an arguament. Are you MAN enough to say sorry? lets see.

45

Em.C.Spiteri,

It's a big one 12/03/2007 11:10:50

We are at peace with all Nations, but we also have to be prepared against some mad leaders.

46

Bill, Dunblane,

12/03/2007 11:11:56

44 - Lesley

Re. the deleted posts: (1 to 7, anyway)

I objected to BW hijacking this important story to repeat again (and again, and again) his own agenda.

He did not agree with me - some comments were made.

As most of the first few posts referred to others, the moderater must have decided to take them all out.

Unless the moderator has been through all the other stories, you'll find the odd reference from BW to this, I have decided to ignore him completely.

He does his cause no good by annoying other posters in this way. Bit like Mev Brown.

47

toryheaven.blogspot.com,

Edinburgh 12/03/2007 11:21:33

Labour and the SNP consistently opposed Britain's independent nuclear capacity when Maggie protected it as Prime Minsiter, thereby helping to trigger the fall of Communism. I have no doubt that backbench Labour MPs and all of the SNP MPs will show equally little common sense today. If they had had their way back in the 80s, there would still be a Soviet Union and millions would still be labouring under oppressive socialist regimes behind the Iron Curtain.

48

Paulus Maximus,

glasgow 12/03/2007 11:26:05

its all relative, if 'they' didnt stick our noses in various world conflicts that don't involve them then they wouldnt have ruffled so many feathers and thus would have hardly any enemies, ergo most of my tax money wouldnt be spent on war and missiles.

e.g.
Ireland = last war 1920s = no enemies (if u dont count the british) = no need for deterents

U.S and U.K = at least 15 wars + conflicts = pretty much everyone from central europe to east asia hates them = lots of missies.

now im not saying that they arent needed, that much is clear its just that looking at my example it is easy to see that sticking your nose where it doesnt belong doesnt help matters. (i am however against keeping them in scotland)

49

Lesley,

Edinburgh 12/03/2007 12:11:53

Many thanks Bill. Have not been on the site for a while and BW is new to me - having seen his posts on other news stories, I will follow your excellent example. :)

50

Sedov,

Scotland 12/03/2007 12:16:29

For the many who are opposed to Trident on this site- you must lobby your MP before the vote and then keep a check on how your MP did vote. I have checked and my MP says that he will vote against - I will be watching.

51

Calum Crubag,

12/03/2007 12:17:47

Best headline we didn't get from the Scotsman in it's not so balanced article...

Labour MPs in Principles Shock.
Backbone found in dinosaur.
Savage Hamster threatens again.

52

ScotsLass58,

Red Ken's Toon 12/03/2007 12:27:31

#26 you are right in that defence is not a devolved power, however I believe the post from #23 Rulesbutnotrulers, questioned the position of Trident under an Independent Scotland. In this case, of an Independent Scotland Trident would almost certainly no longer be permited to remain on Scottish soil. Personally I think Trident should be relocated to Westminster. That way Red Ken can claim the nuclear material for himself and create London's first nuclear power station. Hey it has to be cheaper than his recently agreed oil agreement with a certain Mr Chavez. :)

53

Il Penseroso,

Inverurie 12/03/2007 12:42:06

#41 and#48 You both have hit the nail on the head. All those New Labour anti Trident "rebels" are using the same old tried and tested means of appearing to have halos above their heads. When the push comes to the shove did they vote against the Iraq war after their hero Bliar didn't get the second resolution from the UN? Remember, in Opposition, Brown, Browne, Ingram, Reid, Wilson B. (retired), Darling, Robertson and a host of other New Labour MPs marched in the sixties against Nukes on the Clyde. Now they want them and they are in Government. Labour effectively for years tarred the SNP as being Tartan Tories. Who are the Tartan Tories now? They will need Tory votes to get this legislation through and they know it!!

54

robert SHIVAGO,

livingston 12/03/2007 12:48:46

Iwould love to tell bliar what to do with his missiles.

55

Big Ted,

Glasgow 12/03/2007 12:48:50

As it's only a deterrent - we don't actually need to have it - just to say we have.

Oops - just gave the game away.

56

celtickeep,

GA/ USA /Home of a Trident SubBase 12/03/2007 13:06:48

#55 Hey Paulus, maybe you guys need to ruffle a few more feathers over there on the UK. From all I read and hear, your ancient, noble and wonderful way of life is being claimed and snuffed out by militant Muslims. They are replacing your legal system with Sharia law and systematically taking over all other aspects of life there. Ask the people in the Netherlands if being touchy-feely nice has reaped any benefit or reward with the enemy. Their way of life is now saturated. There are some people/countries you cannot negotiate with or befriend. You can only answer might with might. Trident is there as a nuclear DETERRENT. Sometimes the fear of what is lurking in the ocean and the threat it represents is all it takes to keep an enemy in check. It is a shame anyone has these weapons, but if rougue nations have the capibility to launch on one of our cities, then we need to be prepared. Also, our Navies have no intention of lobbing nucs on cities just to destroy them. Unlike the enemy who would have no problem blowing up anyone or anywhere they choose, I believe our militaries would be very discriminatory of where they decided to strike. I don't believe for one minute that if the UK gave up it's nukes, Iran and North Korea would see the good faith in it and follow suit. They would see sitting ducks.

57

Odin X,

12/03/2007 13:07:11

Internationally, the UK is involved in an illegal aggressive invasion resulting in >600,000 dead civilians, cancer-causing uranium tipped shells, illegal cluster bombs, over a decade of sanctions on Iraq resulting in over 1 million dead. Threat of sanctions on Iran to stop them developing nuclear power, as is their right.

Now we are to breach our international obligations under the non-proliferation treaty by replacing nuclear weapons (which we will never use anyway).

Could it be that the UK is the Rogue State others need protection from?

58

Odin X,

12/03/2007 13:11:26

#65 celtickeep.

Ask the residents of what is left of Falluja if "we", the mighty, would destroy a city.

On a longer time scale, you might want to look at Dresden, Hiroshima or Nagasaki before claiming that only the "enemy" would destroy a city.

59

Jamrie,

Malta 12/03/2007 13:17:00

Trident, In my opinion, is the deterrent that is better to have and not to need.
Than to need, but do not have.

60

Alistair Stewart,

www.dont-vote-labour.co.uk 12/03/2007 13:23:15

I wonder what the take of the Labour MSPs are on this?

Also, could Labour MP Mr Devine be the Laour MP who will defect to SNP before May 3rd??

61

Big G,

12/03/2007 13:26:05

Odin X - You really shouldn't believe everything you think. WWII was a battle for survival on a global scale - Dresden, Hioroshima and Nagasaki were, in the context of the war, legitimate targets. You also forgot to mention the London blitz, Coventry, Clydebank, Stalingrad, Warsaw, Nankin.......etc,etc,etc.

62

Odin X,

12/03/2007 13:26:54

#54 toryheaven,

So the Soviet Union fell apart because Britain had some sub-marines, not because of the internal economic, social and political problems at the time?

The attempts to establish openness and choice in the Soviet Union was the primary cause of the failure - it was set up as a one-party state and could not cope with divergence of views that comes in the move from dictatorship to democracy.

That, and the fact that its oil production was dropping at a time the oil price was also falling drastically, so it could not get sufficient hard currency to maintain its system.

While there is some merit in the argument that a contributory factor may have been the financial outlay in nuclear weapons, it should also be borne in mind that it was the USA who were in the arms race with the USSR, and that a number of arm-reduction deals had effectively ended the arms race well before the eventual collapse.

Nothing to do with Maggie's trident, I'm afraid.

63

celtickeep,

GA/ USA /Home of a Trident SubBase 12/03/2007 13:27:13

#67 Odin
Falluja was destroyed by the terrorists. Our soldiers, yours and ours, told everyone to leave prior to the attack. Get your story straight before you tell it.
I never said only the enemy would destroy a city. It seems that during World War 2, some terrible things were done to perpetuate the end of the war. I don't agree with destruction on that scale and I honestly don't believe either of our governments would engage in something like that again.
Why do you hate you country?

64

Odin X,

12/03/2007 13:41:10

Our troops destroyed Falluja. Its well documented.

Turn the Falluja story round for a second. If the "terrorist of the week" said everyone get out of New York or London, would you blindly accept and leave? Would the terrorist then have the right to destroy the city?

I love my country, I hate what it is doing. Through its terrorism abroad, it is causing the deaths of many thousands of inncocent people and it is making us a target for terrorism here.

65

fimo,

Edinburgh 12/03/2007 13:41:16

Jamrie #68: Spot on - I wish I had thought of that line.

Hitler nearly walked into the UK because we didn't have tools to defend ourselves - and if it had been left to Chamberlain, with his sit-on-the-fence policies, we would be speaking German today.

It was only thanks to the so called war-monger politicians (like Churchill) and the brave men and women who fought afterwards, that we remain free to express our views today.

No one in their right mind wants to use nuclear weapons, but they exist and we don't know what is around the corner.

66

morris,

Edinburgh 12/03/2007 13:51:22

28
Feeling better today I see Mr Scaramouche!
lol

Welcome back!

67

morris,

Edinburgh 12/03/2007 14:03:33

51
I almost repeated you syllable for syllable Jim Lad. Anybody can check that what I say is correct in fact please be my guest!
If you cant take it ,dont accuse others!I stand by what I said.He is more in keeping with public opinion polls than you,and if anybody will get a shock in May it looks far more likely to be you than him unless there is a major change !
Have you appologised to him yet ?
I might consider apologising to a man who practices what he preaches,but at the moment, I see nothing to suggest this.
I certainly do not accept that I am offensive by copying you almost exactly,but you are somehow acceptable in doing exactly the same thing.
Where did you get this idea from?

68

morris,

Edinburgh 12/03/2007 14:06:15

48
Spot on!

69

Freeman,

United States 12/03/2007 14:09:17

Sometime in the next fifteen years there will be a moment of geopolitical truth, a showdown. I don't know which enemy of Freedom and the Western Democracies will
confront us. But when it happens We, The United States, will need Great Britain as our ally.

If you "stand down" as the rest of Europe has done in regards to military might, then War, A Catastrophic War, is much more likely. We can not be the only ones in the West to bear most of the burden.

Thank You for your support, and please may it continue.

70

morris,

Edinburgh 12/03/2007 14:12:58

49 Amazing we sing in harmony today!
Yippee!
We can only justify ever having these weapons by using them,which means we are minus one planet to live on.Now lets see one minus one leaves erm.Oh dear!
Madness.
We invade other countries because they allegedly might develop what we already have,and heaven forbid,they might do what the USA already did twice at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It stopped the Japs true,but at what cost to mankind? Japans lost two cities,but we lost our sense.A far higher price!

71

celtickeep,

GA/ USA /Home of a Trident SubBase 12/03/2007 14:16:27

#72 Odin

Uhh...9/11/2001
A provoked attacked that started it all

Rape rooms, human sized shredders, genocide on a mass scale -- all perpetrated by Saddam Hussian.

That is terrorism. Not trying to free people from it and allowing Muslims to worship as Muslims, Christians as Christians, Jews as Jews.

We are not the terrorists. We are trying to allow people to live without tyranny and the real terrorists don't like that. They want control and they want control throught fear. I can't fathom people like you who feel for them. They blow up babies in ice cream shops. They blow up their own babies!!! What about freedom!!! They don't want us to have it.

Falluja would not have been destroyed if they had laid down their arms and surrendered. Instead they allowed the town of their countrymen to be destroyed for an ideology that most Iraqis don't agree with but are too afraid to speak out against.

72

Odin X,

12/03/2007 14:17:36

52. Em.C.Spiteri

"We are at peace with all Nations, but we also have to be prepared against some mad leaders"

And what if we get a mad leader?

73

Faye,

Scotland 12/03/2007 14:20:27

Trident can be rendered incapable because the satellite navigation system is controlled by America.

It doesn't matter where Trident is in that regard.

However, in an independent Scotland will Scots want to maintain it, that is a different matter.

Either an independent Scotland has to decide if it wants a joint defence system with England or go it alone with much smaller armed forces. Afterall, that's what seperation means.

England being a much more right wing and richer country will want a nuclear deterent as it still has ambitions on the world stage and that means, the Faslane jobs will go to Devonport.

Defence policy has to be set for threats in 10-15 years time.

When it comes down to brass tax, ordinary peoples from all over the world can get on with each other.

Is the problem more one of corporate greed? Instead of trading with each other for a fair price there is a mentality of grab the resources from the rich resource countries and keep all the money in the hands of a few. Of course countries hold others to ransom over price. Sadly that seems to be the way of the world.

Large Corporations are often accused of pulling the strings; hence claims of puppet governments.

Therein lies the problem, a fight by all to protect or get the resources.

Oil has been that problem but the real problems for the future will be water and air.

Look at Boliva and how corporate companies taxed local people 40% for collecting rainwater and when people didn't pay because they couldn't the bully boys tried to deny poor people water and hence an uprising.

http://www.democracyctr.org/waterwar/

74

morris,

Edinburgh 12/03/2007 14:20:56

Perhaps PM Blair could issue a press release saying he has seen conclusive proof that Scotland has son of trident ready to assemble inside ACME crates near Gareloch.
Everybody should belive him They were taken in hook line and sinker last time anyway.Some still are!
Look at the money we would save !

75

morris,

Edinburgh 12/03/2007 14:22:18

80
What do you think the UK has currently?

76

Odin X,

12/03/2007 14:26:26

More people have died in Iraq since the US & UK got there than died under Saddam, excepting the Iran/Iraq war.

Terrorism is the use of violence to achieve political ends, in particular violence against civilians.

Which covers 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq. I have no sympathy for terrorists of either side. American did nothing against Saudi Arabia, yet was attacked on 9/11 by Saudi terrorists. Iraq did nothing against the US, but was subjected to an illegal war. Iran is next, yet it has done nothing.

The linking of 9/11 and Iraq is the biggest fallacy of all.

Your logic on Fallujah is excellent - if the Iraqis had just left their homes, we wouldn't have had to destroy their homes. Either way, hundreds of thousands go homeless because 4 american contractors are killed.

And in my opinion they're not terrorists if they're resisting foreign occupation. (Though they are when they bomb civilians).

77

Mrs. Trellis,

Devon 12/03/2007 14:26:57

32 Conservative says "it doesn't matter what it costs" What a silly statement to make!
Do we still use bows and arrows? err NO! Do we still use Battleships?? err NO! why?... cos. They are now USELESS in modern warfare.
It's all very well making these sort of bellicose statements inferring that we are going to be vunerable to attack if we don't have Trident..but we do have it - and will continue to have for many years yet. It really is no good being too conservative about military hardware as it is notoriously liable to be rendered useless by some new system. Such as say the new laser guns that are now been demonstrated as a working proposition (in America), and will be quickly able to destroy any incoming missiles.
"Oh dear and we have just spent x billion £££ renting American missiles..stupid or what!!

Then there are these two Aircraft carriers that we are supposed to be buying..( American Company built??) when the American have admitted that their own Aircraft carriers ( which they thought invulnerable to missile attack) have A VERY SERIOUS PROBLEM from a Chinese anti ship missile see... http://www.answers.com/topic/c-802
So it seems yet another wasted heap of "our" cash. Unless of course we buy the no doubt now Very expensive American Laser guns. Heh ho.
Mrs T

78

Freeman,

United States 12/03/2007 14:27:35

morris,

Weakness in material and fighting spirit emboldens enemies. Ask Hitler. Ask Al Queda.

If you have your way, some day your women will not be yours and your words will not be freely dispensed. That is the price of capitulation. If you want to trundle down that road go somewhere "unfree", just don't drag the rest of us with you.

79

Odin X,

12/03/2007 14:44:53

83 Morris

Thankfully, our current leader hasn't been that detached enough from reality yet.

If Tony Blair can go against the opinion of the country and still get elected, who knows who we might have in the future?

BNP?

80

Odin X,

12/03/2007 14:45:14

83 Morris

Thankfully, our current leader hasn't been that detached from reality yet.

If Tony Blair can go against the opinion of the country and still get elected, who knows who we might have in the future?

BNP?

81

Faye,

Scotland 12/03/2007 14:58:34

#86 Freeman

Germany was on its knees before Hitler came to power, within 7 years Germany was up and running and ready to take on Europe.

Defence policy has to consider the hard man of the future, where he might surface.

Russian could have easily toppled Western European countries with their armies and sheer number of people and on that front and the UK operated a nuke first policy.

Whether that policy has kept peace will always be debated as to what world we could have been living in had that policy not been taken.

Freedom of speech is essential but the poor are being made even poorer and this is because their governments are selling off essential services, water, electricity and air in some countries!

Such decisions affect people in Western Countries too. How many people have had their water cut off?

The essential elements of life should be under public control.

People all over the world need to hold their governments to account to ensure such vital elements are not controlled by a few large multinational corporations.

The UK has sold out our essential supplies too.

One only needs to look at Iraq and neighbouring countries and how water upstream in one country can stop water reaching other countries.

The same applies to similar states in the USA and many other countries around the world.

Who is the real enemy and will Trident be a necessary deterrent?

Are some corporate companies becoming much too powerful?

Are governments puppet governments pandering to big business or are they interested in looking after the people who voted them into power?

http://www.worldhungeryear.org/why_speaks/ws_load.asp?fil...

82

,

12/03/2007 15:02:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 438148, Article id was mapped to record!
83

Big Wullie,

Glagow 12/03/2007 15:33:20

Trident is a great deterrent.
Loonies Like Lesley and Bill should be Barred from posting.
They like many others only use the site to speak to each other, Look at their postings yourselves.
I will follow your excellent posts bill, What is this crap about.
Bill is the one advocating that our soldiers should take drugs instead of going to Iraq, Bill you are a loony.
Bill is your second Name Taylor QC by any chance??
As for Scottiscoffindodgerno1 at 29
You know nothing of my case how can you make comments as you did, You obviously know nothing of the Law but ignorance is no excuse for opening your mouth and letting your belly rumble
Some of our MSPs could do with a big trident up their ----- to make them move.
On this note i say keep trident here

84

morris,

Edinburgh 12/03/2007 15:49:56

90
I apologise Happy now? Im more than capable of an apology and have done so many times on here.
I still do not think you deserve it,but if you think it matters, then who am I to disappoint you.
May will tell us who was correct,and bearing in mind that local government results will be counted under STV the comparison bewteen the Scottish parliament results and the council results may not reflect the other as much as one might expect.One good thing though.The Tories will be able to claim a revival from having been transfomed from dead to all intents and purposes to terminally ill.
They will also be elected in England of course quite soon,so its interesting times ahead.
What will be confirmed beyond doubt is that The United Kingdom is already clinically dead,its just not been announced yet.

85

James England,

12/03/2007 15:54:14

Well said B W #91.

86

morris,

Edinburgh 12/03/2007 16:07:58

86
Im not going anywhere . I am a Scot living in Scotland and whether I have nuclear weapons on my soil will be determined by the residents of my country.What you do is your affair. Personally Im not very inclined to take advice from a country which thinks George Bush is presidential material
I would be reluctant to leave him in charge of himself ,let alone a nation.
Sorry,nothing personlly against you of course.
Freedom to decide whether Nuclear weapons are housed here matters to me ,and I choose No.

87

matthew c,

Harwich 12/03/2007 16:10:26

Its all about wasting our money .The last boat was commissioned in 1999 in can be used for 30years so a replacement boat isnt required for 20 years if it were necessary...The money would be better spent on our hospitals....Labour are the party of waste and spin....

88

Eve,

Scotland 12/03/2007 16:26:32

RE: Photo: Oh so that's what Ness looks like!!!!

Looks like the guy who took a photo of Ness wasney really in Inverness or any where near Loch Ness, he was really at the River Clyde's WoMD hame.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Though I must admit I hope Blair losses the vote (or has, if they've taken it allready, haven't seen the news today!)

89

Media 1,

12/03/2007 16:43:15

Trident must be renewed! Its a no brainer

90

buzzer,

12/03/2007 16:43:16

Jim Lad gies a brek wi yer girnin an get real wi yer comments.

Considering we have abject poverty in this country shoudn't we be trying to spend more money on keeping people healthy and educated rather than spending billions on a defence system?

Trident should not be used here or in Iran or Korea despite them having 'rogue nations' to defend themselves ie USA and Britain. It just does not make sense on economical or ethical grounds

91

buzzer,

12/03/2007 16:46:19

well done Morris you are not a blusterer but a man of good reason. You certainly do not in my opinion nedd to apologise to Jim Lad as 99 will tell you.

92

buzzer,

12/03/2007 16:46:43

well done Morris you are not a blusterer but a man of good reason. You certainly do not in my opinion need to apologise to Jim Lad as 99 will tell you.

93

Debbra,

USA 12/03/2007 16:51:13

Seems to me, Blair & Bush have put both countries in a position "the people" do not want. Of course, if Blair & Bush didn't run around from country to country, accussing, intimidating, and threatening, what used to be former alilies, there probably would not be this problem there or here. This "One World Order" that the two of them belong to, right along with Daddy Bush, is what has really started the trouble! They speak out of both sides of their mouths, have lied so much they cannot remember which lies they have told; and while they know where they will be safe "the people" in both of these nations have no idea what to do. B,B, & C have threatened so many countries and started this war with Iraq with a lie, and tried to start yet another between Lebenon & Israel, then the ongoing bs with North Korea and Iran, has gotten out of control. These people believe in war, and spending taxpayers money on wars that I can remember children playing years ago. The only thing is, they had plastic soliders and tanks-it was not real. Now these "leaders" -used very lightly-go into our schools and terrify the children into thinking we are in danger at all times. In a sense we are, because they (Blair, Bush & Cheney) have continued to throw threats to what used to be or could have been allies. What needs to be stopped is these "powerful "men"-this is real life and to subject "the people" to playing a "war game" is cruel and unusual behavior. With them it's either you are for them or against them and let's not forget Bush is the "decider"-seems to be a lame duck now. A lot of trash talk will get you nowhere, quickly. Especially when a "leader" starts looking at "the people" as plastic soliders, playing with plastic tanks, missles, and what now, nuclear weapons. There is NO respect for "the People" from any of these radicals. I thought that used t

94

jim lad,

the capital 12/03/2007 17:16:00

#92 Morris
Thanks for your begrudging apology.I honestly don't try and insult anyone because they don't agree with me. As you say we will all know on 4 May who is correct. I am voting SNP but ony because it does not mean independance automatically but like you i suppose, i am annoyed with the present incumbents so i too want change. I guess we are not a million miles apart in our want list it's'just our expectations are different so i say good luck to us both.
Respect Brother

95

The laird.,

from leadhills. 12/03/2007 17:22:57

remember ,phony tony,
TRIDENT, not in my back garden, most scots don,t want them based in scotland.

96

jim lad,

the capital 12/03/2007 17:33:21

#99 buzzer
I agree absolutely with your post,but if you check my post#39 it was the independance issue i was addressing though in hindsight i should have been clearer and didn't feel i needed to be insulted, but that was between me and Morris and is now resolved.So as i have said i am with you 100% on the core issue of your post and hope that clears the matter up for you.

97

zigzag,

Tecumseh Ontario 12/03/2007 17:40:57

SO once the nuclear holocust starts who do we think will survive to protect the planets waste lands...the officials who retreat into their underground bunkers?
La Cucaracha, all of them

All I wont to know is should I buy a Hyundia Santa Fe or an Outlander (to make a run for it.) Oh, oh
petrol will not be affordable so I suppose I will have to just leg it. Has reached $3.00 a gallon. Still cheaper than Europe, but still making Cheney and Halliburton rich. Remember Regan and "BRING DOWN THAT WALL?'

Lets all say : George, uncap your TEXAS OIL Wells.

Only thing for certain is, your tax dollars and pounds are going doon the pan.

98

zigzag,

Tecumseh Ontario 12/03/2007 17:41:45

What do they call that forky looking thingy the devil holds in his hands?

99

zigzag,

Tecumseh Ontario 12/03/2007 17:43:11

Where is Martha from Florida? The mouthy dame. Surely she will need to wade into this issue

100

zigzag,

Tecumseh Ontario 12/03/2007 17:44:11

Is Big Wullie a boastful name or just a wishful think?

101

zigzag,

Tecumseh Ontario 12/03/2007 17:45:56

102. Debbra, USA / 4:51pm 12 Mar 2007

You talk sense Debbra...I like you

102

Bill, Dunblane,

12/03/2007 17:46:04

98 - Media 1

I almost agreed with your comment, then realised that you had used "Its" instead of "I'm".

Must get the eyes tested......

103

zigzag,

Tecumseh Ontario 12/03/2007 17:50:04

80. Odin X / 2:17pm 12 Mar 2007 52. Em.C.Spiteri

"We are at peace with all Nations, but we also have to be prepared against some mad leaders"

And what if we get a mad leader?

YOU ALREADY HAVE A MAD LEADER ODIN !!!

104

citizen smith,

Midlothian 12/03/2007 17:51:52

If Scotland became an Independant Nation, would we be asking England to remove the hulks lying at rosyth ?
Trident is no match for terrorism, the trouble with terrorists is they look just like everyone else, so it's difficult to find them and target them, and we are a soft touch in my opinion. We need to take a firmer stand against terrorism. The terrorist dont have a mandate to bomb or kill but they do it, I dont here to much said about this ?

105

Andrew Allan,

12/03/2007 17:52:19

We should be aiming for neutrality, which is a rational and achievable goal, rather than Trident which use is neither.

106

Il Penseroso,

Inverurie 12/03/2007 17:55:17

Debbra #102 You have just rekindled my faith in America. Great to know the good people of America are still there and fighting the good cause against the Neo Cons who can only be described as "mad men". Wouldn't it be lovely if we could send Bush, Blair and their acolytes to the moon on a diplomatic mission?

107

Andrew Allan,

12/03/2007 17:57:12

citizen smith,#114. The best way to combat terrorism is ideology. When we get back to doing things in a way Scots feel comfortable with, then there is a good chance there will be less terrorism aimed at our people.

108

Cynic,

Dalkeith 12/03/2007 18:13:29

Viva Trident. It's a mad, mad, world.

109

morris,

Edinburgh 12/03/2007 18:13:43

130
Wow ! You are voting SNP! Consider the apology given from the heart with interest!
Ive taken you out of context it would appear,and as you say we are far from a million miles apart!Quite close in fact,and I do not mean Edinburgh.

In truth the percentage of poll could make a difference to how New Labour and the SNP fare. The youth hold they key to Scotland.If we can get them to vote then the United Kingdom is finished.
First we have to get them to put the Game Boy away!
GAME ON (or is it)?
The inescapable fact however is that all three Unionist parties seek election on a track record of lies for the last thirty years,and thats not opinion,thats a fact which their own history confirms.
I show little patience for any Unionist now,because they defend the indefensible.
The question is :Do they support the retention of the Union knowing about the MCrone Report or not?
What difference does it make I hear a few ask.
Not a lot in truth.I'm just curious as to what branch of Unionism they belong to, (a) knew and are therefore dishonest liars or (b) Knew nothing in which case they are accused of a much lesser crime of thinking they are intelligent ( but obviously innocent).

110

morris,

Edinburgh 12/03/2007 18:15:19

102

Well said Debbra. I might vote for you if I ever had the chance!

111

Toronto Tam,

12/03/2007 18:24:22

celtickeep @#79

You say "We are not the terrorists. We are trying to allow people to live without tyranny and the real terrorists don't like that. They want control and they want control throught fear. I can't fathom people like you who feel for them. They blow up babies in ice cream shops. They blow up their own babies!!! What about freedom!!! They don't want us to have it.

We (the US and Britain) are not there to graciously bestow "freedom" on the Iraqis we are there to secure the flow of THEIR oil to US in the west. Do you not think that the people of every country want 'control" over their own affairs, of course they do, that is why the people of scotland will vote for a change this May.

What is the difference between being blown up by a suicide bomber or by a stealth bomber? The end result is the same. These people cannot compete with the technoligical superiority and might of the west, but they have been and will continue to use suicide bombers to their own advantage and we cannot compete with that.

What is freedom exactly? Freedom to vote every four years for one of two millionaires who is so removed from the reality of the people whose interests he claims to represent? Freedom to live in a country where more of the budget is spent on the military than on education, health and welfare combined?

Right now the insurgents in Iraq are fighting each other and the US/Brit armies for domination so that when negotiations finally happen they (whichever group comes out on top) will have the strongest bargaining position. What did we expect going into this? War is not some kind of game or tv show where the good guys ride into town, chase away the bad guys, the sherriff announces "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" and everyone lives happily ever after. The US and Britain had been bombing Iraq for years after the first gulf war, destroying the infrastructure of the country then after the invasion destroyed most of

112

London Joe,

12/03/2007 18:32:07

Some smart comments and a lot of dumb ones! The Trident for instance is not a direct deterrent to terrorism, but should be a deterrent to any nation that would sell nuclear arms to terrorists or terrorist states - in other words if N. Korea sells nukes to Al-Qaeda and should a British interest be attacks then it would stand to reason that N. Korea, being the selling party, should pay the price. How much more deterrence do you need ...

However, the ultimate cost to the purse and public benefit should be considered. Just as American style aircraft carriers were too burdensome on the purse, perhaps also replacement missiles are also too expensive. One could always depend on the United States to retaliate for any attack on British interests ... Quid pro quo though ...

Something to think about ...

113

jim lad,

the capital 12/03/2007 18:38:43

#119 Morris
You hit the nail on the head, getting people out their armchairs and into the polling stations,thats the point i have been banging on about till i get weary saying the same thing. If the Scots want the SNP to win there is no place for complacency, otherwise they will get what they deserve and then hear them moan.

114

Frobnitz,

Edinburgh 12/03/2007 18:49:53

Why do politicians vote according to their conscience?

Surely they should vote according to the views of their constituents?

Or am I being desparately naïve?

:)

115

Sanny,

Portugal (until May) 12/03/2007 19:02:36

Let us be clear folks. These WMD,s are not about UK defense, they’re American! Simple fact; we cannot fire them without the codes held by the US.

Can you see the scenario? Please Mr. President the enemy has just blown away Scotland can we fire a teensy weensy Trident at them?
No! Ah don’t think that would be in the American interest, you good guys just lay down and die for the “good ol US of A”.

I see no reason why we should subsidise the American Bully Boy Diplomacy!!!

Incidentally weren’t the Labour Party part of the CND movement. All power corrupts ….

116

buzzer,

12/03/2007 19:10:04

you'r a good man jim lad

117

morris,

Edinburgh 12/03/2007 19:20:59

114
You raise an interesting question regarding Rosyth.
I have heard from people who worked at Rosyth Naval Yard,that a nuclear sub which was leaking was housed there.They could not move it because that would render it even more dangerous than leaving it to leak!
I have no idea if this story was ever true,but.......Id sure as hell like to hear some input from people who have heard similar claims.
I trust reassurances will not be forthcoming based on the fact that someone known to us worked in a chippie in Inverkeithing and would therefore know about this!
Im asking a serious question here,but have absolutely no idea on what level of authenticity this ever had.
Anyone?

118

London Joe,

12/03/2007 19:34:35

Rulesbutnotrulers you seem to be missing the point - terrorists cannot build these types of weapons. They have to be purchased from someone willing to sell them to terrorists. It is no different than going after the leader of a drug cartelI imagine you must have a degree from Oxford ...

119

Prinzowhales,

North Carolina 12/03/2007 19:49:37

Did anyone see where the "peace dividend" went?

Why end the Cold War in the first place if you're just going to renew it--with a delicious little 'war on terror' as a side dish for the merchants of death?

At least Scotland could opt out of this madness by declaring their independence from the mad City yahoos. That would set an example that could not be ignored!

Turn to workers of Faslane to some useful employment!

120

seekem,

in exile 12/03/2007 19:54:39

After all we have been through over the last few years has it not clicked that weapons and systems of this nature are obsolete. wars of the future will be very much along the scale of the existing conflicts ie. small groups who cannot be pinned down. Does anybody really expect to eliminate an enemy based in Glasgow or London with a nuke?
Blair and co (including the still deluded Conservative Party) are simply doing what their great alied partner USA demands. (what was it again the coalition against evil?)
The UK forces are almost all involved with NATO duties decided by the US.
Scotland does not need an army it needs a force similar to that of Switzerland.

And an Army of citizens to throw out the GOONS once and for all.

Vive revolution Vive Zapatista Vive Freedom Vive Scotland.

121

fatboyslim,

register your views 12/03/2007 19:57:44

hi
i argue all who regulary read these pages and support independence to take a few moments to sign the petition at the goverments website in support of it
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/freescots/

122

Prinzowhales,

North Carolina 12/03/2007 20:12:41

Mr. Kirkup and Mrs. Gray have one message...FEAR!! They even provide a list of things to fear...inlcuding...duh-duh-duh duhhhh..."the unknown.'

Let's look at the others on their list..."Russia"... Russia is upgrading its missiles...Why?...The US trashed treaties, with the UK backed Chechen terrorists and brought eastern European countries into NATO while launching a war of agression against Serbia. Upgrading their missiles?--what a surprise!

Then there is "Iran"...The US was actively trying to get the Iranians to invest in nuclear power plants in the 1970s...They bought Russian and now they're a danger to world peace. They overthrew the democratically elected Mossadeq government 60 years ago and put SAVAK and the Shah in charge of the country...they've openly talked of attacking Iran dispite the inconvenience of such things as the Nuremburg declarations and the UN Charter. There is no proof that Iran is developing nuclear weapons but that hasn't stopped the US from making war against innocent lands in the past.

"North Korea"...They have nukes, have threatened to use them and have received nuclear reactors from the US and, most recently, 50,000 tonnes of fuel. Do you really think Trident will save you from the Roman candles Kim will be launching?

Wonder why they didn't mention China, Pakistan, India or Israel? Again, Trident isn't going to make a difference there. Think Togo and the Isle of Man... and other unknown enemies...

123

Susan Caroline Periano,

Topsham, UK 12/03/2007 20:38:17

Trident should be voted out. It's giving the wrong message at a very sensitive time.

124

Odin X,

12/03/2007 21:30:52

113. Zigzag

""We are at peace with all Nations, but we also have to be prepared against some mad leaders"

And what if we get a mad leader?

YOU ALREADY HAVE A MAD LEADER ODIN !!!"

Don't we know it!

125

Duncan,

ALBA GU BRATH. 12/03/2007 21:34:17

http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=391482007

Congratulations to Nigel Griffiths for having a back bone and resigning. Perhaps he is the defector rumored to be going to the SNP. Good luck to him.

This decision need not be taken for years yet. But the super arrogant Blair wants the decision now to ensure his next career takes of. Pity he wouldn't.

126

Alistair Canada,

Oshawa, Canada 12/03/2007 22:06:09

Remember the disarmament loonies that pursued disarmament in the 1930's. While Britain was disarming Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and Japan were arming themselves to the teeth. Remember that the Nazis developed a balistic missile in 1944 (V2) and if they had been six months earlier with the launch we might have lost WW2. Britain must retain the nuclear deterrent, else become the readily available target of those who develop nuclear weapons. Massive retaliation is the only response that will keep rogue states in check.

127

Fifer in exile,

Staffordshire 12/03/2007 22:15:27

C'mon Scaramouche - no song today?

Your songs are the only thing that keep me going!

Loved the last two (drugs and homosexuals)

'Bout time you published a collection for public sing songs.

Trident??

128

Munro,

Inverness 12/03/2007 22:28:57

how can we hustify the retention of Trident far less its replacement by even more powerful warheads when we went to war against iraq as they allegedly had nculear weapons?

also if the dody dossier said 45 minutes was all iraq needed to aim them at UK how come it takes so long to make them?

more lies from the most bigheaded prime minister it has been our misfotune to have

129

livilion,

livingston 12/03/2007 22:32:09

There is a new class of conventionaly armed attack boat arriving at Faslane which they are currently upgrading facilites for.

These subs will be quite capable of dropping a cruise missile down the lum of any building in the world, at very short notice, undetectably until these (conventionally armed) missiles actually break cover.

In my opinion this is a much more sane approach to deterence.

The knowledge that you can be personally targeted at any time as the principle threat to my security, leaving your political opponents untouched and free to take over in your place?

How much more effective than the thought that all of your political enemies will be incinerated in the holocaust while you hunker in your bunker?

130

Scaramouche,

12/03/2007 22:38:45

#139. Sorry, but I was back at the hospital this afternoon for a checkup and then sent home pretty knackered. Wife is being really tyrannical about my resting. I think she's had lessons from Dick Cheney!

OUCH!!! she slapped the back of my head and said "Bed you! Now!!!" I ain't arguing. Night-night all!

131

livilion,

livingston 12/03/2007 22:38:54

141. Reading Public

The missiles are American, on loan, with British warheads.

The new stuff is in the subs' stealth technology, a bit like 007s Red October.

They can remain silent and motionless indefinitely, like in those black and white WWII movies, or creep at walking pace to their targets without giving away their presence.

132

Penquinboy,

Auckland NZ 12/03/2007 22:48:12

#122 London Joe:

"in other words if N. Korea sells nukes to Al-Qaeda and should a British interest be attacks then it would stand to reason that N. Korea, being the selling party, should pay the price. How much more deterrence do you need ... "

Do you honestly think that the USA, or Russia or China would allow you to nuke North Korea ; try looking at a map!

133

livilion,

livingston 12/03/2007 23:17:03

Of course we could adopt my favoured approach to deterence;

MAD

Mutually Assured Dipsomania.

For £20billion imagine the kerry-oot you could get?

If the Russians want a go, fire over containers of Smirnov, or whatever they're on these days, with some finger food and dips.
Mind some white wine for you know who.

By the time they'd sober up they'll either be too sensitive to loud bangs or they'd be telling us that we'd always been their bestest pals in the whole world and it's their shout.

Imagine the consequences of a retaliatory strike?

For the jeehadiis, we could set them up with a few 'sorts' and save them the bother of blowing themselves up first.

Heaven on earth, man, they'd love us to bits instead of trying to blow us all to bits.

134

livilion,

livingston 12/03/2007 23:24:05

122. London Joe

Try this scenario;
Al Quaida get their hands on a nuke, and use it on a Western City.

Through channels they let it us 'discover' that they obtained it from.... whoever, Russia, China, Pakistan.

We retaliate accordingly.

The nuke 'actually' came from ....

Now what?

135

Big Wullie,

Glasgow 12/03/2007 23:31:07

Bill at 112
I see you have found someone else to vent your frustration on by criticising Media 1. At 98 for his spelling.
Have you nothing constuctive to add to this forum other than to annoy people?
Sad really.
At least in my case i am trying to highlight a quest for Justice and do not criticise any other posters.
You must have complained about my threads for them to remove them as this has never happened yet.
Be a man admit it?
The forum is trident Bill and i say we need to keep it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WhJUjhequ4

136

Penquinboy,

Auckland NZ 12/03/2007 23:36:18

#147: I don't think there are too many folks outside of North Korea (and probably a lot within) who would disagree with you on that but just look at the change in attitude from statements from George Dubya and Condi when Pyongyang declared they had successfully tested a nuclear device!

I also agree with a number of posts here today reminding people that ratchetting up the nuclear stakes is pretty futile, apart from like will beget like future conflicts will take place under the radar. Bows and arrows might become valuable tools of war again.

137

Penquinboy,

Auckland NZ 12/03/2007 23:53:54

#150 livlion:

And as Al Quaida is an American invention/asset it's more likely to be true.

138

Faye,

Scotland 13/03/2007 00:23:44

Dialogue is the only way. Blowing people up is really stupid.

139

Billy Boy,

Los Angeles 13/03/2007 00:30:32

I was a serving soldier during the "cold war" and thought those BTB people were nutters, I now realize just how naive I was. This weapons build up is just the same as back then, when we were "protecting" ourselves against the USSR. It is a sham, and its only purpose is keeping the USA as the biggest military power. The British people have to take back their government and STOP the self destructive idiocy which is setting these ridiculous policies. Of course Iran, Korea, etc etc want Nuclear power, it will be their only defence against US. (pun intended)
They are in Taxco, try reaching them at; http://www.amexicanvacationrental.com

140

Billy Boy,

Los Angeles 13/03/2007 00:40:38

To Alistair- 138, be careful, the "rogue" might surprise you, "Oh Canada"
They are in Taxco, try reaching them at; http://www.amexicanvacationrental.com

141

Bill, Dunblane,

13/03/2007 01:10:40

151 - BW

I have NOT asked for any of your posts to be removed - I've taken the view that anyone who reads them will understand exactly where you stand, and what your rationale is. Your posts only show yourself in a very bad light. Other people, or perhaps the moderator, may have decided that they were not appropriate - Me? - I don't care one way or the other.

You are obviously a very angry man, possibly with good cause - I don't know.

I've been on this forum for some time, so all of the regulars will know my real views.

I can now, however, understand why no-one is prepared to take up your case.

142

The Wizard,

OZ 13/03/2007 02:12:18

#128

Hi Shooie

If Neville Shute was correct when he wrote 'On The Beach' we will be the last to go.

Not a great consolation but enough time to finish of the Laophroaig and Bruichladdich.

Wiz

143

Bill, Dunblane,

13/03/2007 02:35:38

160 - Wiz

All set down the Mornington peninsula so it was.

Good movie tho'

But '59 was WELL before my time there.

Although I believe there was an Ozzie remake late '80's early '90's?

Dyou have a good view of the Southern Ocean where you are?

Robbie, yer no' still annoyed at Wiz and me huvin' a wee bit risque joke on the Biggar thread?

144

The Wizard,

OZ 13/03/2007 02:49:49

#161 Bill
Just on the other side of the Peninsula from the ocean, about a mile away, can hear the waves crashing on the cliffs.

No problem with Robbie, he is probably busy, does conservation work. Read about one of the projects he is involved in, really good. Have a look at Maungatautari Ecological Island Trust on the www.

Wiz

145

donmclean,

east kilbride 13/03/2007 03:00:03

So what are we saying, Ive got a bigger bomb than you have ?.

I'm sure that polaris in it's day was more than capable of mass destruction, Trident more so !

Now we are going for no name, Even more capable of destroying our world, in the name of our humanity,
against an unknown enemy, in retaliation, for what,

Could it be that some of our Politicans might profit from this stance, our Prime Minister perhaps?

Perhaps Hilary Clinton could step in, and reassure us that all is well in the political world and that it's all in our best interests.
but I have a problem, perhaps I am cynical, but it seems to be that, the legal profession, rather than uphold the law, use the law to their particular advantage, financially, and look to poliltics as a stepping stone, for their own financial stabiliy.

146

morris,

Edinburgh 13/03/2007 07:09:27

137
It would help if you observed the following:
This newspaper claims to be the national daily of a country called Scotland.Its a rather far fetched claim but never the less it is what they claim.
Most people here are either scots or recognise that its a scots majority who are scattered all over the world,who participate here(but not exclusively)and as such understand that the UK (a multi national state) in which we live comprises of 4 components or countries the largest being England plus the three others called Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland.
Since you refer to England frequently (which is our neighbouring country) I presumne you do in fact mean The United Kingdom.or maybe you mean Scotland.It would help if you made it clear which you refer to(along with just about everybody else in the US of A).
WE ARE NOT CALLED ENGLAND!

147

James England,

13/03/2007 07:31:21

When it comes to left-wing idealistic pacifism. the rape of Europe by Hitler should crystallise the lesson into one simple maxim-------NEVER BE DEFENCELESS.

148

morris,

Edinburgh 13/03/2007 07:42:19

165
What happened in Germany was primarily due to the stupidity of the world in allowing the German economy to collapse.We set up a number of organisatons after the last war and in theory they should help prevent repetition. I say in theory because there will always be dangerous warmongering nations who completely ignore United Nations .

USA and UK for a kick off!
The world needs protection but primarily against us!
When two nations take it upon themselves to declare a new world order :
UNITED STATES
UNITED KINGDOM
UNITED NATIONS
you can hardly be surprised if certain other nations want to attack this arrogance.
We dont agree with Bush and Blair, and we elected the idiots
How on earth could anybody else be expected to?

149

,

13/03/2007 08:22:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 439535, Article id was mapped to record!
150

James England,

13/03/2007 10:22:51

Why don't you ask the Middle-East Terrorists. since their philosophy is not saturated with anti-military preyudice like one sees on this board.

151

Richard Lionheart,

edinburgh 13/03/2007 14:13:48

#31 livilion "What is the point of having a system that you can never use?

Are we really capable of initiating a first strike, and if we did what would be the consequences?"

Contrary questions. I do not believe that we would wish to make a first strike, as you put it!

The point of a having a system which we won't use is the point!

Hopefully it would put off irrational/unstable nations which aquire nuclear capabilites from launching missiles against us! The fact that we have not launched any since they were introduced here shows that the UK does in fact use them as a deterrent!

It is sad though that it costs so much to put that deterrent in place!

In a perfect World we would not need too!

152

Firozali A.Mulla MBA PhD,

Dar-Es-Salaam Tanzania 13/03/2007 15:13:21

Told you there was plot here it is
Griffiths quits over Trident
BILL JACOBS WESTMINSTER EDITOR
EDINBURGH MP Nigel Griffiths today quit his government job to lead a backbench rebellion against the replacement of the Trident nuclear deterrent.
The Deputy Leader of the Commons gave up his post to join other Lothian MPs planning to vote on Wednesday against the renewal of the submarine based weapons system.

153

livilion,

livingston 13/03/2007 22:44:51

#169. Richard Lionheart

So you don't feel that countries such as Iran and N.Korea are motivated by the idea that the USA is set to destroy their country with the threat of nuclear attack as the ultimate sanction.

Remember General Douglas MacArthur asked for permission to nuke N.Korea during the Korean war.

Under what circumstances do you employ a first strike?

Any other scenario is bogus.

If you have been destroyed by nuclear attack where is the point in a nuclear counter strike?

When your air is laden with radioactive fallout, the last thing survivors'll need is even more radioactive material in the atmosphere.

Remember Chernobyl?

154

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 14/03/2007 00:27:23

 

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