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Lisbon treaty: Ireland votes no to European Union reforms

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Published Date: 13 June 2008
THE future of the European Union was plunged into chaos tonight after Irish voters rejected the controversial Lisbon Treaty.
Although 18 of the EU's 27 member states have already ratified the major reform package, Ireland's constitution forced it to put the treaty to a public vote.

And today the Irish electorate plunged the future of the treaty into doubt by rejecting i
t.

Reacting to the result, European Commission President Manuel Barroso still called on other members states to ratify the treaty.

"I believe the treaty is alive and we should now try to find a solution," he told reporters in Brussels.

Mr Barroso said Europe's governments would now have to decide what to do next.

He said he had spoken to Irish prime minister Brian Cowen this afternoon, who had insisted that the no vote should not be seen as a vote against the EU.

Mr Barroso went on: "Indeed, both sides in the campaign stressed the benefits of Irish membership.

"I believe that Ireland remains committed to building a strong Europe and playing a full and active part in the EU."

The commission president continued: "The Irish government and the governments of the other member states will now need to assess what this result means for the process.

"The treaty was signed by all 27 member states, so there is a joint responsibility to address the situation."

He said next week's EU summit in Brussels was the place where joint decisions should be taken on an issue that concerned everyone.

"The no vote in Ireland has not solved the problems which the Lisbon Treaty is designed to solve," continued Mr Barroso.

"The ratification process is made up of 27 national processes. Eighteen member states have already approved the treaty and the European Commission believes that the remaining ratifications should continue to take their course.

"At the European Council (summit), we will want to confer with each other, to hear Prime Minister Cowen's analysis, as well as his ideas on how to address the concerns expressed by those who chose to vote no.

"At the same time, the EU institutions and the member states should continue the work of delivering for the citizens of Europe on issues like growth and jobs, social cohesion, energy security, climate change and fighting inflation.

"Working together in the EU remains the best way to deal with the challenges affecting Europeans today."



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  • Last Updated: 13 June 2008 4:30 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: European Union
 
1

Unimpressed one,

13/06/2008 13:26:25
In theory this should be great news for the democratic process. In reality the EUSSR will ensure that the treaty will go through regardless.
2

Boedica,

Gallia Omnia 13/06/2008 13:26:57
This is very satisfying. After the French and Dutch rejected the first version of the EU treaty, governments throughout Europe did not learn from the experience. Instead of talking to their people, listening and explaining they opted for ratifying through parliament. That reveals a profoundly undemocratic attitude.
3

Lovepan,

North East England 13/06/2008 13:35:08
'Ever closer union' - that's the stated aim of the EU and of its precedent, the EEC.

You're either in Europe or you're not. The rest of the European governments and the Commission will not be happy with Ireland over this.

Lots of wasted money and Europe will limp on with far too much red tape hindering any meaningful progress.
4

Allan(handofgod137),

13/06/2008 13:40:42
Now give us the promised vote on it so we can do the same.
5

UKIP rocks!,

13/06/2008 13:42:41
This has made my weekend. I know that the European Commission will never allow Ireland's vote to stop the EUSSR from enslaving us all, but this is one victory that we can all be proud of.

The Irish are our liberating heros. I wish to congratulate groups like We Are Change Ireland.

Let's not forget that Gordon 'the clown' Brown is pushing ahead with Britain's ratification anyway.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/773326/brown-tells-sarkozy-that-hell-plough-on-with-ratification-regardless.thtml
6

UKIP rocks!,

13/06/2008 13:49:40
The arrogance of these scum!

EC president Jose Manuel Barroso said a rejection would be bad for Europe and French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner also warned that if Ireland voted 'No', 'the first victim... would be the Irish'.
7

Hmm ...,

13/06/2008 13:54:20
... sounds as though our UK referendum should be whether we should divorce from the EU.

It has never worked for Britain, it isn't intended to work for Britain and it never will work for Britain.

I never forgave Heath for "sub-contracting" our government to the EEC - but it turns out that he gave it away. We pay net into the EU and have very little say in its "reforms". Instead, it dictates to us what laws we should pass in the UK parliament and threatens that if we do not, it will issue a directive sidestepping our parliament altogether. Democracy? Don't make me laugh!

So the only argument is - can we elect a government that will take the steps necesary to extract us from the EU as painlessly as possible?

This present government is failing in that as in all else.
8

UKIP rocks!,

13/06/2008 14:05:04
UKIP welcomes Irish 'No' to treaty
Friday, 13 June 2008
UK Independence leader Nigel Farage MEP has congratulated the people of the Irish Republic for rejecting the Lisbon Treaty in the only referendum held in any EU country. He demanded that implementation of the treaty should be stopped immediately.

"The only people to have a say on the treaty have kicked it into the long grass," Mr Farage said.

His comment came after Irish justice minister Dermot Ahern conceded even before the official result was declared that the people's answer on the treaty would be No.

But Mr Farage also gave a warning: "I suspect that the EU extremists will simply try to ignore it as they did the French and Dutch rejections of the EU Constitution.

"The third reading of the treaty in the House of Lords next week must be halted because the project now has no legitimacy."

He offered his congratulations to Irish MEP Kathy Sinnot, his colleague in the Independence and Democracy Group in the European Parliament, and said he was "delighted that UKIP had been able to make such a significant contribution to the No campaign."

UKIP MP Bob Spink said he was "absolutely delighted we have won the day" in Ireland.

He added: "I am now calling for the proceedings in the British Parliament to be suspended, pending the EU honouring its pledge and withdrawing the Lisbon Treaty, which we all know is just the EU Constitution under a different name."

9

Statsman,

Edinburgh 13/06/2008 14:11:55
I used to be pro-EU before I realised the real objective of this body was to steal national sovereignty and hand power over to an unelected elite. This is what this current treaty does.

European citizens don't want the Lisbon Treaty. They don't want to give up national sovereignty. Yet the politicians are only too happy to sign us up against our will.

This doesn't make sense until you understand the elitist hegemony driving this process.
10

Bemused and above it all,

13/06/2008 14:13:57
Thats the final nail in the coffin of the 'thick Irish' stereotype then!
11

UKIP rocks!,

13/06/2008 14:16:49
What's with the EU, North American Union, African Union etc?

http://www.stopthenorthamericanunion.com/TwoPeas.html

The EU and the NAU ~ Two Peas In A Pod!

By Daneen G. Peterson, Ph.D.
May 20, 2007
Updated August 31, 2007

The formation of the European Union (EU) is the 'blueprint' being used to construct the North American Union (NAU). In multiple acts of treason, our government is illegally creating the NAU by using secret meetings and deceptive double-speak to hide their 'INCREMENTAL STEALTH'. They are making MASSIVE changes to our bureaucratic-administrative-regulatory laws by calling them 'HARMONIZATIONS.' What they are doing is re-writing our legal regulatory law to the benefit of, by, and for the corporate elite, which is . . . classic fascism. The only difference between the creation of the EU and the NAU is that it took 55 years for the European free trade agreement to morph into the EU. Unless we can stop them, they will accomplish the NAU here in a BREATHTAKING 15 years. The One World Monopolists have already declared before our Congress, that our borders are to be eliminated by 2010. Are you ready for that?
12

UKIP rocks!,

13/06/2008 14:21:11
http://www.africa-union.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asian_Union


Alex Jones - Endgame - FULL MOVIE - High Quality

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?
docid=3163105453918493460&q=end+game+the+movie&ei=wnRSSPKvA4uuigK4_vjADA
13

Neil,

Glasgow 13/06/2008 14:42:25
Not a lot of sympathy with the mandarins in Brussles on here then.

Why don't we & Ireland both join NAFTA instead.
14

Redfive,

13/06/2008 14:52:34
Well done Ireland thats a pint we all owe you, and PM Brown you waste of space, well done for phoning your euro crony mates and re-assuring them the UK would still raitfy the treaty even though ireland rejects it - You are a traitor and Brown and you should be put in stocks and pelted with rotten vegetables until you appoligise for you euro-stick up of the UK. Roll on the next election there is no way on gods earth that Labour will remain in power again - good ridence to bad rubbish that is Nu-Labour.
15

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13/06/2008 14:54:40
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W Smith,

Middle East 13/06/2008 14:57:27
1) Some French and German ministers were complaining that Ireland's low tax regime was 'unfair'.

I disagree.

Ireland has weened itself off subsidies and has lifted up its economy from ground zero.

2) Norway has the right idea.

Free Trade Agreement with the EU while keeping the international socialists in Brussels at bay.
17

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13/06/2008 14:58:03
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13/06/2008 14:59:46
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13/06/2008 15:02:38
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Boggle fey the Bog,

13/06/2008 15:03:28
Under their own rules the Lisbon Treaty will be dead in the water when it is confirmed that Ireland has said NO!!!

So they will go back to the 'drawing board', re-draft it, call it something else and try to push it through.

It is time that the EU reverted to what it is supposed to be a 'free trade area' and not the Fourth Reich, this Franco-German Empire must be stopped dead in it's tracks!!

Oh and Broon, give us the referendum that your party promised, but include in the paper 'Do you wish the United Kingdom to remain in the European Union?'

If the vote is for 'out of the EU', then we should resign from it the day after the referendum count!
21

A Better Way,

Republic of Scotland 13/06/2008 15:11:12
Good on the Irish. As a wealthy Nation they dont really need the EU and like a rich independant Scotland can shove two fingers up to the Bilderberg Elite like Brown, Blair, Sarkozy, and that kraut sluttt.

Now we must get rid of Brown and the London New Labour Party for good. We have nearly destroyed them here in Scotland and by keeping up the pressure on the English Fascist Press, we can turn the English well against both the Union of 1707 and the European Union. Scotland should have written into its New Constitution that our Governments can never be authorised to sign away our Scotlands rights to decide our own future. Scottish Patriots should be the only Scots allowed to govern Scotland. Our New Constitution should re enforce the rights of the Scottish People to be the Sovereign Power in all matters. And that NO elected Government like Browns can stay in office by simply appointing a new leader. If the Leader resigns then the Government should be forced to run a new election. Our Oil, Fishing Grounds,Coal,Whisky and Financial Services Industry will see us well. Our Mother Scotland has looked after her bairns, by giving us a bountifull group of natural wealth creating resources. After Independance lets make sure we pay her back by making it another successfull financial story.

Saor Alba
22

Alan B,

13/06/2008 15:13:18
#Boggle fey the Bog

"It is time that the EU reverted to what it is supposed to be a 'free trade area'"

Who says that is what is supposed to be? I think u are caught up with what the london media in their parochial tell us it is supposed to be.

It maybe what the UK wants it to be that is an entirely different thing.

"Under their own rules the Lisbon Treaty will be dead in the water"
From question time last night it does not appear that necessarily is the case. (Do not know myself). i think we tend to here from the media what they want the rules to be rather than what is actually the case.
23

Alan B,

13/06/2008 15:14:42
#A Better Way

If it were not for the EU the Irish would not be a wealth country.

Having said that i think they were correct to reject this treaty.
24

Alan B,

13/06/2008 15:26:46
#Neil

"Why don't we & Ireland both join NAFTA instead."

Couple of things
1)ireland rejecting this treaty does not actually mean they want out of the EU. Given a chance to vote i would probably have voted no to this treaty but strongly support the concept of the EU.

2)What makes u think the UK if we left the EU could actually become members of NAFTA.

NAFTA is in decline now that Sweden have joined the EU and it is a left over from the past. No saying it is not a good idea just that the idea that the UK could just leave the EU and enjoy the benefits of free trade with the EU through NAFTA is extremely unlikely.

NAFTA countries also have to accept much of the EU rules they just do not have any say on them.

If we leave the EU we will not have the advantage of free trade with the EU which most of UK trade is based. The EU (like the US is becoming) are quite trade protectionist. Any trade deal with the EU would be on EU terms and britain would have little option to accept a poor deal. The EU would have a very strong hand to play, particularly considering that the UK is a trading nation.

If for instance the EU said ok u can be part of the the EU tariff free zone and part of the single market they may say only if we sign up fully to the social chapter.

As has been mentioned there is people within the EU who do not like Irish tax competition and believe it goes against the concept of a social market economy. If the EU pushed forward with harmonisation of taxation ie business taxes in the UK absense they may make that a component of having a free trade zone.

The thing to remember regarding the EU economically. The uk was in economic meltdown until we joined. The empire was going and the commonwealth in decline. Our economic competitiveness was poor and declining comparied to the eec nations. We were the sick man of europe. And while it hit it low point with labour in the 70s that decline happened mainly under the tories since the end of ww2.
25

Bejjy,

13/06/2008 15:27:53
Talk about biting the hand that feeds you; Ireland has received billions in handouts from the EU since 1973 whilst giving little in return. They were the basket case of Europe but EU money transformed their economy into what it is now. By the electorate voting no to this treaty Ireland should be kicked out of the EU then they can revert to being Europe's basket case once again.
26

Jimmy the Pie,

13/06/2008 15:28:11
AM2, Highland Imbecile, etc,etc keep banging on about how we are stronger as part of the Union. How Scotland is too small and feeble to be noticed in Europe.

Well, all of Europe will be sitting up and paying attention to what Ireland is saying now.

Good on them!!
27

Alan B,

13/06/2008 15:30:56
#Neil

sorry thought u said EFTA and were talking about the european free trade zone that #W Smith was talking about
28

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13/06/2008 15:35:10
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Alan B,

13/06/2008 15:41:15
#Neil

With regard NAFTA both democratic candidates have slagged of NAFTA. The US is becoming more trade protectionist.

Even Cananda is becoming irritated with some of the trade protectionism coming from the US and u would not think canada would be a treat.

Remember some of the trade protection the US has towards the UK already. A plane from the UK to the US cannot fly onto another US city. The media cannot be own by non US citizens. (that is why murdoch became a us citizen).

The other problem with a trade deal with the US rather than europe would be:
1)the US would call the shots - there is already some bad feeling regarding the states already because of foreign policy, this could make it worse
2)it would mean that an independence of foreign policy would become much harder. If we dessent the US would not be happy bunnies.
3)much investement comes to the uk to access the eu single market. that would dry up.
4)geography, trade with the US would be alot more difficult becuse of distance
5)NAFTA is not a single market in the way the EU single market is. It is just a trade agreement. Tariff free.
30

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13/06/2008 15:42:03
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Alan B,

13/06/2008 15:43:57
#Bejjy

Why?

The problem with the EU is becuase of ur type of comment. The EU and this treaty are 2 different things. People should not have to accept any treaty no matter how bad just becuase the EU has been good to them in the past.

I am strong supporter of the EU but the whole constitutional idea was completely misconceived.

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13/06/2008 15:46:29
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13/06/2008 15:57:15
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34

UKIP rocks!,

13/06/2008 15:58:12
I hope Britain can be kicked out of the EU.

Unfortunately, the dirty pro-EU elite want our country's resources.
35

UKIP rocks!,

13/06/2008 15:59:59
The Irish are the most wonderful people in the world! Thanks for saving us from this particularly nasty piece of work.
36

UKIP rocks!,

13/06/2008 16:04:05
Imagine the shouting and table thumping that must be going on the Brussels right now.
37

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13/06/2008 16:05:47
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38

UKIP rocks!,

13/06/2008 16:07:48
Ireland is pretty pro-EU, so imagine how much we can humiliate the EU elite if we are given our vote!

I reckon UK pro-EU rabble are probably ~5% of the population.

"There is no plan B..."

So what!
39

UKIP rocks!,

13/06/2008 16:08:50
"Make Europe work better..."

Didn't the Nazis make genocide more efficient?
40

An Beal Bacht,

13/06/2008 16:10:46
The cabal that rules us will not be deterred just because the Irish played coy. This lot, for all their talk of democracy, are not going to walk away from their project to rob us of our sovereignty.
41

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13/06/2008 16:17:41
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13/06/2008 16:23:06
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UKIP rocks!,

13/06/2008 16:23:14
Herr Barroso looks angry.
44

UKIP rocks!,

13/06/2008 16:23:41
He's saying that the Treaty is not dead.
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13/06/2008 16:25:14
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13/06/2008 16:31:13
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Jimmy the Pie,

13/06/2008 16:39:12
Will that serial liar, mass murderer and charlatan Tony Blair still be fancying his chances as European President now, I wonder
48

Jimmy the Pie,

13/06/2008 16:40:55
Will that serial liar, mass murderer and charlatan Tony Blair still be fancying his chances as European President now, I wonder
49

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 13/06/2008 16:44:19
The Irish are heroes. Now lets throw the eastern countries out of the EU and go back to a trading block of the original members. We don't need MEPs or eurocrats, just a simple trading bloc with tax and duty concessions for members. That is all we ever wanted or ever got a vote on. It was called the Common Market. Let's have it back.

Tourists leaving here or coming here can have 30 day visas but nothing more.
50

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/06/2008 16:52:18
Where are all the Unionists to remind us that a country the size or smaller than Scotland would of course have no influence within the Eu...
51

Alan B,

13/06/2008 16:59:24
#invictager

"The vote for the common market 35 years ago said it was meant to be a free trade area."

I am not doubting the way that was the way it was sold to the UK electrate.

The poster was saying the EU should revert to what it was meant to be - free trade area. My point was that is a UK way of looking at it and it was never meant to be JUST a free trade zone.

"What the euro lovers fail to mention is we already have all the advantages you mention now and do not need to give up any more"

I do not support the treaty nor the constitution. I think the way it was done was totally misconceived. Although part of the problem in this country is the government trying to pass some off, as something it is not. ie our government deny it is just a rehash of the constitutional treaty whereas most other governments freely admit that.

"The traitor Blair gave away billions of pounds of our money to look cool to his euro chums "
u have to read between the lines to see what u are arguing when u dress ur language up in such a way.

I take it u are talking about the reduction in the rebate. This is actually complicated. All countries will give money according to their wealth. The problem is the net contribution depends on what u get back directly.

The biggest problem in this respect is CAP. It gives back to those countries where they concentrate on agriculture and have structured argiculture in a certain way. The uk loses out to france in this way. The biggest problem was the uk did not join at inception and then have been trying to change the policies of a club it later joined.

I personally would like to see CAP abolished. I would first of all like countries to pay for their own agriculture and then move to a EU protected single market in agriculture.

That would sort out the reason for rebate if these savings were passed back to the countries then the gross contributions of the countries could be reduced.

The other main expenditure and hence the mon
52

Alan B,

13/06/2008 16:59:58
cont..

The other main expenditure and hence the money we contribute is for economic cohesion. All that money paid to poorer regions. Currently that will go eastwards.

Personally i think it is a good thing to pay money to poorer countries to bring them into line economically with the rest of us. It is to EU advantage long term to be made up of rich economies.

The other thing about this economic development fund it is a quid pro quo for the single market. Poor countries are not just going to open up their markets to tarrif free trade and the single market. This fund is a payback for doing so. The free market is an indirect benefit of this economic fund.

What i do not like it the creeping powers of the EU. I would like clear lines or responsbility and that is it no further treaties a couple of yrs later.

In some ways we could have certain pillars and countries could opt in or out of those specific areas.

The main purpose to me of the eu should be:
1)single market
2)common currency - should not be forced only if countries wish to join
3)freedom of movement of people
4)common approach to environmental problems - mainly round single market regualtions eg light bulbs, efficiencies of cars etc. EU has stopped the acid rain the uk cause other countries in the 70s (although economic decline and deindustrialisation helped) as the dirty man of europe.
4)common foreign policy with co-ordinated approaches to military interventionism for peace keeping. ie we should not be dependent on the us to sort out our problems.

53

Nikostratos,

13/06/2008 17:22:17
#52

I suppose if a majority of Scots (not very likely) were to vote (not very likely) for Independence. Then using your political theory it would be alright for a minority of pro-union supporters (although they are in fact by far in the majority) to stop the process as they did not agree.

Ireland may be entitled to do want Ireland wants but they have no right to stop other nations following their chosen course..Dont you agree?
54

Geoff,

sa 13/06/2008 17:25:05
Whether or not the Irish referendum decision is a good or bad thing consider this. The uk has contributed nearly 300 BILLION Euros to the EU over the past thirty years. Ireland, up until the present has been massively subsidised helping to bring the Irish republic from sick man of europe to Celtic tiger. I personally would support an incremental move to european Confederation without sleights of hand like the Treaty of Lisbon but if I was the boss man of europe now and sat down to think about the billions that Europe has poured into Eire to get the country on her feet, I might be thinking along the lines of"Fu*k u Paddy-you're on your own now!"
55

Alan B,

13/06/2008 17:30:00
#Nikostratos

"Ireland may be entitled to do want Ireland wants but they have no right to stop other nations following their chosen course..Dont you agree?"

I agree to an extent but the problem is the rules within the EU demand unanimity.

Possibly it would be better to have a eu wide referendum and not make them country specific.

The other issue, is other countries said no in a referendum. The EU just has rehashed the same thing and ignored their wishes.

Personally i would think that the EU should have a number of pillars and countries could choose to opt out of those pillars. this would allow other countries to integrate in certain areas where others could opt out.

Say some wanted to have a common defence and foreign policy they could go forward and others could opt out.

Part of the uk problem is the fact that governments have tried to stop the rest proceding rather than just opting out although that Major did deploy that strategy.
56

bill-alba,

fife 13/06/2008 17:30:00
#55 Ireland has the right to vote against this treaty as it requires all nations to ratify other nations have always had the right to follow their chosen couse - so whats your point.
57

Alan B,

13/06/2008 17:32:52
#Mikko

Why should they kick the eastern european countries out. If u do not want to the uk to be within the EU fair enough but to deny others membership is not right.

Taking it to a logical conclusion the rest of the eu should kick the uk out as we do not exactly embrace the concept. We want to be in for out economic benefit but do not actually want to be their.
58

Alan B,

13/06/2008 17:37:47
#bill-alba

I think his point is why should one country be able to stop all the other countries within a club moving forward if they so wish.

"it requires all nations to ratify"
that maybe so but is it correct and right.

Why not have a eu wide referendum and if it get a majority then the treaty is adopted and if not it fails. One person vote.

Part of the reason for this treaty was to move to majority voting rather than unanimity. This is due to the fact that it will be hard to get everyone agreeing. As such democracy is the wish of the majority and stop the idea that any single member can stop everything in its tracks.

I personally think it is wrong that say greece could singly veto turkish membership. If the majority of countries want a new member then it should procede.
59

Dougie, Edinburgh,

13/06/2008 17:42:33
55 Nikostratos
The point is, other nations DON'T want to follow this course. Only their political elites do. Eire is one of the most pro-EU countries of the the whole EU and the population STILL rejected this stealth-constitution. No other country wanted to take the risk of consulting the public.

The EU elite has utter contempt for democracy. People like Prodi and Barroso just don't care what the people of Europe want. Instead they want to erase individual national identities in a socialist super state:

Blair must ignore public opinion, says Barroso
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1554402/Blair-must-ignore-public-opinion%2C-says-Barroso.html

Who makes our laws? Nobody knows
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1435367/Who-makes-our-laws-Nobody-knows.html

The Cleavage Between the People and Their Governments
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2759
60

John McMahon,

Edinburgh 13/06/2008 17:44:05
The arrogance of our political 'leaders' here is staggering! The so-called constitution was thrown out by the few who were allowed to vote on it. But they knew better, so rather than respect democracy they just re-wrote it into a treaty. Again, the even fewer allowed to vote on it this time threw it out, despite hectoring and near-blackmail by their politicians. So will they respect it this time? Will they heck?

Let's be clear. This is not an "anti-Europe" vote. The Irish people are keen on European integration. They just want what everyone else wants: an accountable, democratic, transparent Europe, not one that's run by a closed elite in the pay of the multinationals.

LISTEN you idiots. The politicians of all parties are bringing disgrace on the institutions they're claiming to defend.
61

Dougie, Edinburgh,

13/06/2008 17:46:06
60 Alan B,
Regarding Turkish membership, if that were put to national referenda, not a single country would vote for it. But of course, it won't be. The people won't be consulted.

BTW, Turkey is so poor and backward millions of Turks would move to Western Europe if they had the choice. Just what we need don't you think?
62

Alan B,

13/06/2008 17:49:53
#Dougie

I am not arguing for Turkish membership or not. My point was simply is it right for one country to be able to veto the will of the rest.

I gave an example of this by the fact that Greece would veto Turkey will in theory the rest of the countries might be for it.

63

Alan B,

13/06/2008 17:51:14
#Dougie

Just to add i am against this treaty. But how do u progress with future changes to the EU. I suggested possibily a EU wide referendum.
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13/06/2008 17:51:52
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Alan B,

13/06/2008 18:05:45
#Dougie

On the specific of whether Turkey should be a member i am for turkey joining.

I suport the right of countries to join if they are democratic etc, but also for other fundamental reasons.

"backward millions of Turks would move to Western Europe"
I would have limits on the free movement of people until a country has reached a certain point of economic developement say 85/90% of the average wealth of eu countries.

My reasons for supporting Turkey are political. I believe the best way to achieve peace and democracy in the world is through economic prosperity and having a pro active peaceful foreign policy. To a large extent the whole Iraq and middle east problems should be resolved by the EU as our neighbour and this would prevent the growth in terrorism from this most dangerious part of the world.

A rich turkey together with eu common defence forse/systems could have a great influence on bordering countries. ie Iraq, Iran and Cyria.

Would Iraq have chemical weaponed the Kurd if the EU was a strong military neighbour? that type of thing.

We have to take seriously the threat from the middle east but recognise bombing is not a good solution.

I would also like the EU to take initiative in resolving the Israel/Palestine dispute. I do not actually think it is that hard to do. Just the US stands in the way of a fair deal. Imposing economic sanctions on Israel until they have withdrawn from the west bank. An eu peace forse should be deployed in the west bank and gazza after israel withdrawal. An international arbitration for working out what the palestinian borders should be 67, 48 or somewhere in the middle.

Would also like the eu to look to north africa to use it influence for pushing democracy and economic prosperity there. Morrocco was knocked back for eec membership in 84 if i remember correctly. Not saying they should be a member but using it economic power it would be good to try to develop democracy and economic affluence from morroco
66

Alan B,

13/06/2008 18:06:22
cont..

morroco over to egypt. This would help in the problems say with Algeria.
67

Geoff,

sa 13/06/2008 18:07:16
"The Irish Government fear that an outraged european government will simply move on without them"! SKY NEWS.

Hmm-the Eurocrats are highly peed off! There is a cerbral way of reacting to this but i fear that the EU will see this as a kick in the teeth from the Irish and react not with considered analysis!
68

areader,

Chilliwack 13/06/2008 18:08:08
Now that Ireland has sucked all the funding they can from the EU and have to share some of what's left with the new entries, they decide to say no. Class act.
69

Jock MacTamson 2,

Highlands 13/06/2008 18:09:19
Steath Taxes, Stealth policies.

Typical of the Nu Liebour party and its communist makes.

Well done Ireland.

Political Masters signing a treaty that all the people rejected and protested about.....Remind anyone of 1707
70

Alan B,

13/06/2008 18:10:57
#Geoff

In the EU way it will take ages to resolve.

They have made such a mess of this. To be rejcted once is bad to have the revised treaty reject is worse. Particularly because it was virtually the same but writtin in a way no-one could understand.

I just do not believe how stupid they have been. Well i do but that is another story.
71

UKIP rocks!,

13/06/2008 18:11:16
Yippee!

The Lisbon Treaty is dead.
72

Alan B,

13/06/2008 18:14:28
#areader

Why should they not vote no if they thought it was a poor treaty. And lets face it is. It was written so no-one could understand it unlike the constitutional treaty which was understandable if badly written.

This will not have any effect on Ireland funding eastern europe as that is something separate. Ireland is now a net contributor to the EU.
73

SlyFifer,

California 13/06/2008 18:16:42
For a while I have been convinced that Scotland needs a new political force. One dedicated to independance both from the UK and the EU. An oil rich Scotland has no need for either of these entities and would be well rid of them both.
That would give the SNP another party that believes in independance a viable opposition, none of the other parties are viable in any way.
74

UKIP rocks!,

13/06/2008 18:17:38
Vote UKIP.
75

Dougie, Edinburgh,

13/06/2008 18:19:19
65 Alan B,

The problem is, the EU has become so corrupt and unaccountable it seems unlikely it can be reformed at all. It's in the nature of such bodies to gradually accumulate more power to themselves at the expense of more localised power.

Your suggestion of EU wide referenda on important issues would be an improvement but there would still be two important problems.
1) EU bureaucrats are experts on introducing important changes by stealth.
2) A EU wide referendum should have some way to account for the decision of a particular nation. For example, the vast majority of people in Britain want at least the option to use imperial units. Whereas an EU wide referendum would presumably vote to ban them if the population were asked. There has to be some way of making allowance for nations to opt out of decisions.

Regarding Turkey, even if hypothetically, the rest of the EU voted for Turkish entry, the Greeks have very justifiable grievances against Turkey. Is it really reasonable to demand free movement of people between Greece and Turkey against the will of the Greek people?

Regardless, the EU will never agree to referenda. What I expect will happen is they'll start working on other ways to accumulate power and meanwhile they'll spend vast quantities of our money on pro-EU propaganda.
76

Alan B,

13/06/2008 18:19:29
#77 why we will still be lumbered in the a far worse union with the uk.

Voting snp would be much more sensible. Then we could free ourselves to improve our country and not be lumbered by the uk.
77

Alan B,

13/06/2008 18:27:30
#Dougie

I agree with opt outs but i think it would have to be opt outs of bigger things that imperial units more like a defence force or a common foreign policy, or euro.

I do agree with u regarding creeping centralism. The EU involves itself in too much that it should not.
ie education etc.

I would like a much more devolved EU, but would be happy to have a common (not single) foreign policy. ie a common approach to say the Balkins and use economic powers to aid in this approach.

As such with ur suggestion with imperial units i do not think the EU should get involved in such things although some of that had to do with the single market. But if u join a club u have to take everything not just the bits u like. If 30 countries did that it wuld not be workable. There would not be a single market. If a country could opt out of the tarriff free zone what is the point in the EU when that was the starting point.

78

Geoff,

sa 13/06/2008 18:28:13
73 Alan B-yes Alan one of the big drawbacks of the Union-cumbersome and bureaucratic. I think on balance the Eu has been the best thing that could have happened to the continent. I agree that a EU wide referendum would make sense but would you do it on an overall majority basis. The might lead to problems in individual countries that posted "no" majorities in an overall "Yes" vote. I think the key is to proceed incrementally. Lisbon is too ambitious. A much watered down treaty is the way to go. But to get back to Ireand-as the Taoiseach said on Sky News-the will of the people must be respected-indeed but I think Ireland must prepare themselves for a big backlash-it is certainly very difficult to escape the image of an ingrate stabbing her benefactor in the back! Not my thoughts but many will see it this way!
79

Pat O,

Bloomington, USA 13/06/2008 18:29:22
#Alan B

""Why don't we & Ireland both join NAFTA instead."

Couple of things

2)What makes u think the UK if we left the EU could actually become members of NAFTA."

Actually, the US congress has created a fast-track program for the UK to join NAFTA. From what I gather, our president has the authority to sign off on the UK joining if they so desire without all the normal red tape. It's as close to a written invitation as one could get.
80

Alan B,

13/06/2008 18:30:42
#Dougie

"EU bureaucrats are experts on introducing important changes by stealth"

That is my problem with majority voting.

I do agree with majority voting as i think it is wrong for the minority to block the majority view. But do not think it is right to extend the powers of the EU by majority voting.

Therefore i would be happy with a situation where we have majority voting for issues that are part of the powers of the EU. But have clear lines where powers are not. Say taxation.

The EU were bad a few yrs ago by pushing the uk into the social chapter through the back door by using health and safety. That was simply wrong.
81

Alan B,

13/06/2008 18:33:13
#Pat O

If u look below i was mistaken as i was talking about EFTA i explained that in #28 below the post. I was talking about the european free trade area.
82

Geoff,

sa 13/06/2008 18:39:28
Pat O-Alan B's mistake notwithstanding-its certainly a possibility for the future if the EU goes sour. Certainly with the"Special relationship" and the fact that we share the same language amongst other things, it is an intriguing thought. EFTA is the rump Europe that couldnt/wouldnt join the european union-I think the UK was once a member?
83

,

13/06/2008 18:46:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
84

WL,

livingston 13/06/2008 18:51:57
I am not surprised that the Irish said "NO" in the referendum. They are sensible people and do not want to be told what to do by some "politicians" in Brussels who think that they know what is best for the EU. If there were a referendum in each of the EU member states I am sure that the result was the same in each country.
What the EU wants to do each time is coming up with a new treaty and they want everyone to accept that WITHOUT TELLING THE PEOPLE WHAT THE CHANGES ARE.
Just a pity that people like P.M. Brown in England does not want to listen to what the people really want.
85

Terrier2,

13/06/2008 19:33:01
Now one country had rejected this constitution, surely it would be contrary to eu law to carry on and implement it? Unless our rulers believe that they are somehow above the law?? I recall a man who once lost his head over such an issue.

The majority of Irish people are actually still pro-eu but the fact that Barroso, egged on by France and Germany is going to push ahead regardless merely exposes the eu for what it is - a dictatorship, and in time the people of the eu will turn and rebel against it.

For me the future and the best option for Britain and all the nations of Britain is to leave this corrupt union ASAP, and learn to work together to make own laws and decisions again.
86

Terrier2,

13/06/2008 19:50:04
85- Yes it was, and so was Ireland.
87

A Better Way,

Republic of Scotland 13/06/2008 19:50:20
Scotland should not vote for the EU until it is an independant country once more. If the London Government of England is representing Scotland we would be reduced to a region without any political powers. A Scottish Government, which is due in two years will be the only safeguard we will have to guarantee we have a big say within the EU. Our Oil and Fishing Waters should never be put on the table for discussion. They are non negotiable and shall remain the property of Scotland. The Sovereignty of the Scottish People should be enshrined in our Constitution and never altered except by a vote of the people by the people. A minimum of 80% majority should be voted before any changes CAN BE MADE. NEVER AGAIN SHALL SCOTLAND ALLOW ANYOTHER COUNTRY OR UNION TO RIDE ROUGHSHOD OVER OUR SCOTLAND.

If the EU doesnt like our terms they can ferk off.
88

Terrier2,

13/06/2008 19:58:42
90 - ha ha - so I take it you are not an SNP voter?
89

Terrier2,

13/06/2008 20:19:12
Parish councils in England have the power to hold referendums (although not binding), as a number have done so. The Scottish Parliament has this power also, so why has the SNP administration in Scotland not put a referendum forward on the Lisbon treaty within Scotland?

They have no excuse - some other parties would back them on this issue, the reason is that they are part of the Eurofascist movement themselves.
90

Terrier2,

13/06/2008 20:59:05
93 A Scottish constitution could of course still be overridden by an eu law as long as Scotland remains a member, regardless of what the SNP had promised, or indeed what the Scottish people voted for, whether it was by 79% or 80%. That is the problem with the whole concept of 'Independence' within Europe, it is a complete contradiction. SNP policy is actually separation from England, as another province of the eu.

The UK is the Scottish peoples best protection from the eu, as it was against Hitler and Bonaparte. Yes, the UK could be more democratic, and some of us are fighting for that, but you have more chance of reforming it, than you have of reforming the eu.


91

Miss H,

13/06/2008 20:59:51
The future of the European Union has been no more plunged into chaos than it was when the EU Constitution fell.

The EU does not do chaos.

It does cumbersome, complicated and sometimes comatose but it does not do chaos.
92

57Nomad,

13/06/2008 21:10:55
I'm not up to speed on the Lisbon treaty but from what little I know it is a warmed over version of the European Constitution that the French rejected a few years ago. I believe that was written by former French president, d'Estaing.

I don't know what the subtleties are but it seemed like it allowed unelected foreign bureaucrats to pass binding legislation with out recourse to vote by the citizens of the countries affected. Is that true? If it is then I will go buy something made in Ireland today. The vote, if that's the case, was well done by the Irish.

Because the vast majority of Americans are descended from immigrants from Europe (or, in the case of my ancestors, immigrants having a voluntary color to it, had their asses booted out of England with the strong suggestion never to return) we have affectionate feelings for almost every European country with a couple of exceptions. One is Germany. Germans comprise the largest percentage of European immigrants to the US. But, German immigration slowed to a trickle by the second half of the 19th century and two World Wars against them have tarnished what good feeling we may have had about them to say the least. Second is France. Why the US has been singled out for special ridicule by the French is beyond us. The US has never ever harmed French interests anywhere at any time and we have shed blood on their behalf. Our feelings about them now are best summed up by General Patton's admonition, "I'd rather have a German division in front of me than a French division in back of me."

Consequently, if it us true that the Lisbon treaty is a reworked version of the Constitution written by a Frenchman, then that alone is reason for caution. But for the average Joe in this country it looks like the Lisbon Treaty would upset the relationship of the individual to the State. It smacks of the Leviathan. Why would any thinking person voluntarily surrender their basic rights to a pack of bureaucrats? Well, the Irish stood
93

57Nomad,

california 13/06/2008 21:12:21
96 contd.

Well, the Irish stood up and we are happy for that and proud of the Irish (it may be of interest that there are about 4 million Irish in Ireland and 40 million Americans of direct Irish descent.)

Should anyone care to, it would be a service to us on this side of the Atlantic if you could outline the salient points for us. Thanks in advance.
94

Stewart C.,

Stranraer 13/06/2008 21:23:34
THE ONLY WAY FORWARD.....

We must use this Irish vote to put an end to the globalists' dream (our nightmare) of a one world government by stealth through creating continental superstates, where national sovereignty, even national identity and every freedom, is forfeited.

I read in today's Telegraph that the UN says that the UK should hold a referendum on whether we should have a monarchy. It was the Sri Lankan envoy who raised concerns about this. Syria accused the UK of discriminating against Muslims and Iran complained about our record on sexual discrimination.

You couldn't make it up.

Let us ditch the EU; dismantle the UN; convict the war criminals and then we will make our laws and everyone else can make their laws and we can concentrate on living in freedom and international cooperation can be achieved by free peoples coming together in love and without the grudges and suspicions that politicians and their unholy alliances create.

from: www.thelabourparty.org


95

Terrier2,

13/06/2008 21:26:54
97 - Nobody here understands it, Ive read it, I don't understand it, but there are no salient points to it, thats the whole point of it. Its so vague that it can mean anything the eu commission wants. Its designed to pull the wool over our eyes. Anyone who says they have read it in full, and understands it, is a liar.
96

John Blackley,

Florida 13/06/2008 21:31:58
Ireland is the only country of the 27 member states that was allowed a vote on the Lisbon treaty. The terms of the treaty require that all countries ratify it before it can be implemented. With Ireland - let me emphasise, the only country to be allowed a vote - rejecting the treaty it should be dead, right?

Don't believe that for a minute. As soon as the Irish result came out, Angela Merkel and Sarkozy started uttering statements about finding "legal constructs" to allow implementation of the treaty despite the Irish vote. Fearing that Britain is going to be left out of the inner circle of the European Boys Club, Prime Minister Brown intends to press on with ratification of the treaty in Britain - despite election promises and despite the reported mood of the people of Britain.

So you see, it may already be too late. This monster, this politburo, this oppressive Euro regime is already so powerful that its members need no longer even pretend to heed the people of its member states. The political classes of the Euro Boys Club will continue to follow their agenda regardless.

Unless. Does David Cameron have the spine to call a vote of no-confidence on this issue? Would enough Labour back-benchers vote their consciences to win the vote? Perhaps not.

Perhaps it is time for those who will not kneel to Brussels to follow the example of Ghandi and start a concerted campaign of civil disobedience to win back the governance of their own countries.
97

Alba Abú,

Dunedin 13/06/2008 22:08:48
#56 Geoff. You are such a bitter and twisted unionist who cant see the writing on the wall. Well done to the Irish people, true democrats one and all!
98

thepriceofdistraction,

USA 13/06/2008 22:30:09
I'm sorry Mr./Ms. Journalist, that we, the freedom loving people of Ireland, really bollixed up your socialist sympathies to the EU master plan to enslave us. Forgive our constitutionally acknowledged right to actually have a say in our own welfare. We certainly would never dream of "plunging the future of the treaty into doubt."
99

Chris Bovey,

Totnes 13/06/2008 23:21:50
This is the best news I have heard in ages, well done the Irish, this is a real kick in the teeth for the Euro-fascists and the New World Order's plans to turn the planet into a Police State.

What a shame that scumbag Gordon Brown decided to break Labour's election promise to hold a referendum on this treaty, thus denying the British the right to do the same as Ireland. The only reason Labour made that promise in the first place is because they didn't want it to be an issue at the last election, and such is their contempt for the British electorate that they made that promise knowing full well they had no intention of keeping it.
100

Free Man?,

Ireland 14/06/2008 12:23:59

I voted No to this treaty as did many of my Irish counterparts..

I am appalled at the arrogance of these elitists and have no doubt they will try to push this through in some clandestine manner.

Watch this link from 4.50 onwards to see our ex Prime Minister "if its not this constitution..or a variation of it..(but).. in 2008 we'll come back to this, probably a slimmed down version and hopefully not too much change in the substance of what we agreed 3 years ago"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVcCMdyfJaI&feature=related

Why is it that no Irish media has givin any airtime to the joyous reaction across Europe that this has been defeated?

I am hoping that there are some non corrupt lawyers out there who will help steer us away from this mess when they try to come up with legal loopholes to circumvent the people's will.

People of the UK, DEMAND a referendum on this, if your politicians say no THREAT to never vote for that party again.

Democracy has lived to fight another day, let's keep it that way!
101

Irishguy,

Cork 14/06/2008 17:13:12
For all those who wish to ensure this does not happen, please direct some posts to this formum and help show some solidarity as European citizens..

http://tinyurl.com/5cd4rn

Thanks to you all
102

davesims,

Croatia 19/06/2008 06:06:03
I am glad that you GB smart ahsshes think this way. I fully agree with you that GB never was and never will be a part of European Continent. You are more like Americans and should form a union with them and leave good old Europe to develop into the strongest Nation in the World vithout some UK islanders that are holding us back. Actually the majority of true European citizens pray to God to see GB out of EU. Please God, Let It Be - EU the leader of the world in Economy, Science and Military

 

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