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MSPs get power to fine over climate change

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Published Date: 25 June 2009
A RAFT of new powers to crack down on wasteful homeowners and businesses were passed yesterday, giving the Scottish Government the tough tools it needs to meet what have been hailed as the world's most ambitious emissions targets.

Measures voted through by Parliament included the power to fine householders and companies if they do not take action to improve the energy efficiency of their houses and buildings.

Charges could be brought in for plastic bags, and businesses may be forced to reduce packaging under the powers granted to ministers in the Climate Change Bill.

MSPs approved tough targets to slash greenhouse gas emissions by 42 per cent by 2020 and 80 per cent by 2050.

The legislation, which comes after months of campaigning, was praised by environmental groups and politicians, who said all eyes would now be on Scotland as other countries set their own climate change targets. However, ministers acknowledged that the difficult job of meeting the new targets must begin immediately.

Among the powers passed by Parliament to help cut emissions were measures meaning Scots who take steps to curb their homes' energy consumption – such as putting in insulation – will be awarded a £50 reduction in council tax. The legislation will pave the way for planning permission to be granted automatically for home energy kits, such as micro-turbines.

Powers were also given to the Scottish Government which, if implemented, could see shops and visitor attractions forced to install recycling bins, and could require businesses to reduce packaging or potentially face a fine.

The bill requires that 80 per cent of the cuts in emissions have to be found in Scotland, with only 20 per cent made up from paying for reductions overseas through international credits.

Mike Robinson, chairman of Stop Climate Chaos Scotland, a coalition representing 60 organisations, said it was "a truly momentous day" and that Scotland was taking a lead that others would follow.

About 200 countries will meet in Copenhagen in December to negotiate a successor to the Kyoto Protocol, and Mr Robinson said Scotland would set an example to other nations.

"The Scottish Parliament has voted for legislation that will be held up as a positive example to the world," he said. "We hope other developed nations will hear this call for action and follow Scotland's lead."

It is believed Scotland's 42 per cent target for 2020 is the toughest in the world, although some countries have more ambitious aims for 2050. In comparison, the UK government has set a 2020 aim of curbing greenhouse gas emissions by 34 per cent, the EU has agreed a target of 20 per cent, Germany 40 per cent, Japan 8 per cent, and Russia between 10 and 15 per cent.

Climate change minister Stewart Stevenson said: "Scotland can be proud of this bill, the most ambitious and comprehensive piece of climate change legislation anywhere in the world. As a country, we are leading global action and expect others to follow our lead as we look to the international summit in Copenhagen this December."

However, global warming sceptic Dr James Buckee, from the University of Oxford, who recently gave a talk at Aberdeen University arguing against the need to tackle climate change, said he thought the targets would be "unobtainable".

He said: "As far as reducing emissions by 80 per cent, banning the internal combustion engine, and coal-fired power stations from Scotland would not get close to doing it. This is clearly unobtainable.

"More energy has been expended on finding ways to infringe on human activity than has gone into understanding the science."

Ministers made it clear yesterday that they do not plan to make immediate use of powers that could see people fined if they did not improve the efficiency of their homes.

Instead, the government will set out a timetable within 12 months to reveal when it plans to start using the powers. A further round of legislation is needed before they can be enforced.

If the plans were implemented, homes and offices would have to publish energy performance certificates – and could be fined if they did not take steps to improve their building's performance within an allocated timeframe.

Chas Booth, from the Association for Conservation of Energy, said he was "delighted" that the powers had been adopted and he thought they would need to be used "sooner or later" in order to meet the tough emissions targets set yesterday.

However, he added that before these measures were used, Scots must be helped to improve the energy efficiency of their homes through incentives – such as the £50 council tax rebate passed yesterday.

"The way we should go forward is not to bring in draconian measures tomorrow," he said. "These powers are effectively a big stick. We have to have the carrot before we have the stick, but at the end of the day, we have to have both to meet the targets."

The 2020 target of cutting greenhouse gas emissions by 42 per cent was backed by MSPs unanimously during the final stage of voting yesterday. Previously, the SNP had planned a 34 per cent target, which would be increased only if other European Union nations raised their targets.

Only after a campaign by green groups, and after Labour tabled an amendment pushing for a 40 per cent target earlier this week, did the SNP announce it would support 42 per cent. However, some campaigners and politicians were worried the SNP had left "loopholes" to enable the target to be reduced at a later date. The bill includes an option to curb the targets if no strong global climate deal is reached in six months.

Last night, praise for the bill even came from Arnold Schwarzenegger, the governor of California, which has championed aggressive climate legislation. He said: "Climate change is a global problem that requires a global solution.

"Scotland's ambitious and comprehensive targets encourage other nations to step up to the plate as we look toward an international agreement in Copenhagen, and it sends a message to the world that we must act now and we must act swiftly."



Natural fluctuations set off alarm bells when science is unsound
Dr James Buckee


Climate changes: the records from both scientific analysis of ice cores and sediments, and the more human record of grapevine cultivation or paintings show continual variation of temperature and rainfall.

The changes we have experienced in the past few hundred years, up and down, are part of these natural variations and within normal bounds.

Indeed, the Thirties was the hottest recent decade and set many record highs, after which the world cooled until about 1970.

The science is still uncertain, and new research and better measurements are revealing fascinating data.

Surface temperature records are heavily contaminated by the spread of bricks and concrete; the best data, from satellites in the atmosphere, has been available only since 1978, so the portentous phrase "since records began" represents a tiny snapshot of longer cycles.

But then there are the computer models.

These models attempt to linearise the chaotic weather system, and contain a line of code stating that an increase in atmospheric carbon dioxide leads to an increase in surface temperature. There is no scientific evidence of this.

Even then the models must hypothesise "positive feedback loops" to show enough effect. Nobody knows if this is right: there may easily be a negative feedback. It is projections of these theoretically untenable models that predict doom and alarm.

Perhaps fortunately, the projections are wrong. The world has been cooling since about 2000; the oceans are not warming.

Prolonged cold spring periods in Hudson Bay are expected to obliterate the breeding period for migratory birds, Arctic ice extent is setting a nine-year record high. Snow in Europe has been the best for decades. Glaciers are growing again. Some projections show the cooling continuing, with a repeat of last century's little ice age. Whether this is a preferred outlook or not depends on your viewpoint.

In general, the world has flourished in warm periods and not in cold periods, so to base economic decisions on this very uncertain outlook and developing science is folly.

There is a strong correlation between energy use and gross domestic product.

Cutting energy use cuts economic activity, and there is no practical alternative to "bottled sunshine" (ie fossil fuels) other than nuclear power to provide a cheap and reliable supply of warmth, light and transport to the people of Scotland.

As far as reducing emissions by 80 per cent goes, banning the internal combustion engine – cars and lorries – and coal-fired power stations from Scotland would not get close to doing it. This goal is clearly unobtainable.

More energy has been expended on finding ways to infringe on human activity than has gone into understanding the science.

The tone of the alarmists has grown more shrill as they recognise that the evidence is moving away from them.

The fervour with which they want to better the human race is commendable, but the same effort could be much better use in areas such as providing clean water or the prevention of malaria.

• Dr James Buckee has a PhD in astrophysics from Oxford University, and is a former chief executive of Talisman Energy.

Scotland shifts from vague contributor to world leader
Dr Richard Dixon


WHEN the Scottish Parliament came into being in 1999, we environment groups were straight in there, talking about how it would be nice to have some Scottish targets on climate change. At first, there was only a vague commitment to make an "equitable" contribution to UK targets.

Ministers and civil servants came up with lots of arguments about why it would be difficult to set targets for Scotland.

In the 2007 Scottish election, many manifestos promised tough action on climate change, including the SNP's commitment to a bill and 3 per cent year-on-year reductions.

Once in power, the SNP asked what we would all like in a climate bill.

More than 20,000 responses, from farmers' markets and street stalls, and e-mails from all over the world, told ministers loudly that we wanted them to deliver on the 3 per cent a year promise.

Talking to civil servants a year ago, it seemed it was no-go on many of our key issues, from annual targets to the inclusion of aviation.

While we have disagreed on some important issues, I have no doubt that finance secretary John Swinney and climate change minister Stewart Stevenson have pushed things hard in government to get a credible bill for Scotland.

The Lib Dems and Greens have also done tremendous work, making sure the key issues were aired and suitable solutions proposed. You would expect this of the Greens, but the Lib Dems have also been great at really pushing the boundaries.

Labour took a while to get there with its thinking on the 2020 target but, in the end, made it possible for yesterday's historic vote.

We now have a Scottish Climate Change Bill with a 42 per cent target, including the full emissions from aviation and shipping, and setting a limit on the amount of carbon credits ministers can buy to meet their targets. We also have a duty on all of Scotland's public bodies to show leadership and help deliver on these targets.

It is not perfect, but this is a bill that sends a very important message out to the rest of the world. China and other developing countries have been calling on developed countries to set targets of 40 per cent or more for 2020.

This is their challenge to us before they will take on serious targets of their own. The US and Japan have failed to promise anything like this level. Our bill shows that some countries can rise to this challenge, and doing this in legislation is the strongest promise possible.

Our 2020 target, the inclusion of aviation emissions and the limit on the use of carbon credits should be the talk of those preparing for the Copenhagen summit. Scotland's example is now the benchmark against which all European nations' plans will be measured. Scotland has gone from vaguely contributing to leading the world on climate ambition.

•Dr Richard Dixon is director of WWF Scotland and on the board of Stop Climate Chaos

Bill's key points

EMISSIONS: Cut by 42% by 2020; 80% by 2050

FLIGHTS: Included in targets on emissions, plus shipping

FINES: For families and firms who flout regulations

HANDOUTS: £50 off council tax bills for going green

PLANNING: Automatic permission for DIY energy

BAGS: Power granted to charge for carrier bags

PACKAGING: Power granted to force shops to cut down

BINS: Power granted to force firms to provide recycling bins

ALL IN THE BAG

TWO of Britain's biggest supermarket chains have been criticised by consumer watchdogs for using too many plastic bags to deliver online shopping orders.

Tesco and Sainsbury's have been criticised for each using 14 separate bags to deliver 29 items – or putting just two products in every bag.

But exactly the same shopping order was completed by Waitrose using half the number of bags, according to consumer magazine Which?

As high-street chains claim to be succeeding in slashing the number of plastic carrier bags they hand out to shoppers, researchers from Which? checked out the online services to carry out a bag count.

Which? claims its researchers ordered the same 29 items from all five online supermarkets – Asda.com, Ocado.com, Sainsbury's.co.uk, Tesco.com and Waitrosedeliver.com.

They found Tesco and Sainsbury's delivered the shopping in 14 bags each – twice the number that Waitrose used – while Ocado used ten bags and Asda nine.

Which? said: "If you bought a pack of sausages and a packet of mince from a supermarket, you probably wouldn't put them in separate bags – but this is just one example of what we found.

Sainsbury's said that drivers were trained to use minimal numbers of bags and to take back bags for reuse or recycling.

Tesco said online shopping can be delivered in crates that are taken away and its drivers are able to take away used bags for recycling.





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1

Wait a minute,

Town 25/06/2009 00:08:45
Brilliant - at last a country leads the world on this. Well done the SNP!
2

Isonomia,

Lenzie 25/06/2009 00:14:22
Talk about making Scotland a laughing stock. Don't MSP know that global temperatures are going down this century!

This is the middle of a recession, Scotland has virtually no industry left, the public sector is going to be hit massively and what do these idiots spend their time doing?

3

Duke,

25/06/2009 00:15:42
What a load of absolute pash!!!
4

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 00:19:54

#1,

You wont be saying that, when the Gestapo force entry into your home, and fine you granny for using an electric blanket, to keep her warm!

5

Willie Mor,

25/06/2009 00:20:13
Very good the Scottish Parliament, and can we now look forward to the enforcement of legislation relating to tail pipe emissions.

I say this because if you have ever sat anywhere near a public service bus you will know that bus companies do not in anyway adhere to the law about emissions.

Similarly, will it also mean that queuing taxis and buses will now switch off their engines as opposed to letting them run for the good of all and sundry who have to breath in the fumes.

Or is it the case that the authorities will continue to turn a blind eye to such practice.
6

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 00:27:40

It is Midnight on a Freezing_Cold_Winters_Day.

'SUDDENLY'! You are Woken by a 'BANNING_AT_THE_DOOR'

It is the 'Energy_Police'!!

You get told, "you are not allowed to boil your kettle, for your hot-water-bottle"

You get fined £1000, but WAIT!!, you have 'little money' to pay fine!

You get Jailed!



7

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

25/06/2009 00:27:52
Is it only employees that are permitted to comment on "Tax Raising Powers" thread?
8

SAME RULES APPLY !!!,

25/06/2009 00:28:57
A modestly populated northern part of a small island sets the worlds toughtest targets for climate change.

Why?

I look forward to the new "Elephant Slapping(Scotland)Act 2009" being passed, because it will have about as much effect as this nonsense will.

SAME RULES APPLY !!!

9

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 00:31:50

WE ARE THE 'ENERGY_POLICE'!

You have used more than £5.00, of Electricity this Week, we have checked your meter!

You are herewith give a fine of £1000!!

10

sicasapig,

turra 25/06/2009 00:35:10
if you do not like the scottish laws then you are quite welcome to go pollute somewhere else dont keep flappin yer
gums just leave
11

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 00:36:36


"crack down on wasteful homeowners"

WE ARE THE 'ENERGY_POLICE'!

Your Family have used 2.22 Rolls of 'Toilet-Paper' this week, The Law states that you only use one-a-week!

You are Given a £1000 Fine!!

12

hoblar,

25/06/2009 00:39:24
Labour just pushed for the number 42% with no evidence or research or policy, just their vote.

The figures that state what can be achieved are probably not very likely to be easily achievable-a real challenge.

Be happy that this challenge won't be met by labour clowns, as they won't be in a position to demand much when the chance to vote arrives.

13

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 25/06/2009 00:40:44
Charles, do you sit up all night drinking?
14

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 00:46:08

13 ~Gregor Addison,

I was making the point of how ludicrous it is to have a law that penalises "wasteful homeowners", pray tell how are they going to Police this?

15

,

25/06/2009 00:46:35
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16

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

25/06/2009 00:49:09


If we were to triple the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere...It would still only be about 0.1%.

Can't say that I am convinced that it has any effect on temperature changes...we have a summer/winter variation of about 8 degrees has London sank beneath the waives yet?

I reckon variations in the sun's output are more significant...but as we can do nothing to change that, there is no money to be made out of pointing an accusing finger at it.

Hence the CO2 scam...Remember Y2K anyone?
17

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 25/06/2009 00:51:13
My main suggestion for improvement is for the eejits who voted for this to make good use of plastic bags and a) ensure there are no ventilation holes in them b) apply over head c) keep breathing for as long as possible. This should be reduce the production of both hot air and CO2 to very acceptable levels and the rest of us can enjoy the normal variations in climate, not to mention less GBH of the earholes.
18

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 00:52:22

#15

That is why Suzanne, we all have to join the 'Eco Party' and Dump the ones that make Scotland a Lunatic Asylum.



19

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 25/06/2009 00:52:42
#14,

I'd like to see the onus put on building contractors to build decent houses. We'll all have to make changes though. "Policing" may not be the way forward; incentives might.
20

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 00:56:19

19 ~Gregor Addison,

Totally Agreed!

They charge enough in the first place, for what is slightly better than a 'Lego-House'.


21

,

25/06/2009 00:57:46
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22

,

25/06/2009 01:00:17
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23

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 01:00:48
~21

Sorry Suzanne, the 'Eco Party' are real cool!, in their innovation's to save 'Planet-Earth' are they not?




24

,

25/06/2009 01:01:58
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25

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 01:02:16


Cold Beans are very nutritious, and cost peanuts!

26

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

25/06/2009 01:02:38
#1
27

,

25/06/2009 01:05:00
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28

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 01:05:39

Suzanne, That's my type of Party!

Where the Papers that need my signature, for joining them?

I bet that the 'Eco Party' are 'Family Friendly' Also!

29

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

25/06/2009 01:07:12
try begining a post -: #1 on the "Tax Raising Powers" thread...the guy who hired Rufus and Smee is a few dilithium crystals short of a warp core!
30

,

25/06/2009 01:09:05
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31

Edward,

25/06/2009 01:10:19
Questions that should be answered by everyone
Just exactly how much CO2 Emmissions does Scotland produce?
Does the CO2 Emmissions that Scotland produce contribute or make any effect on climate?
If Scotland doesnt actually have any heavy industry to speak of, then where does the CO2 emmissions come from?

I find it amazing that politicians can blindly try and justify their 'green' credentials without actually knowing the true picture of what emmissions the country that they reperesent, produces!
To give an illustration of how stupid the measures can be. If the bulk of CO2 emmissions come from Humans breathing, Farm Animal flatulance and cars being driven. Does this mean that 80% of the Scottish human population has to stop breathing, or we get rid of 80% of our farm animals or 80% of the cars have to go?
I wold like people to stop and think for once instead of jumping on the Green bandwagon
32

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 01:10:54

Sorry Suzanne! 'RIGHT_HONRABLE_MEMBER_OF_THE_ECO_PARTY'

What is the Eco Party's, stance on babies and children?


33

,

25/06/2009 01:12:31
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34

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 01:13:02

Suzanne ~31,

Not if it is the "Salads" Spoken about in this Paper today, in the Health Pages!

35

Aggrieved Taxpayer 2,

East Kilbride 25/06/2009 01:14:20
Thank goodness that those wandering lunatics have found an asylum.

One worried about them, for a while, but now that they have found a home for their magical megawatts we can all sleep easy.
36

,

25/06/2009 01:15:53
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37

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 01:16:41

34 ~Sorry Suzanne,

Answers the Qestion, "why is he hiding"?

"Green_Sleeves", too much Energy used to Wash Them!
38

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 01:20:07

37 ~Sorry Suzanne,

You have me in Hysterics! Excellent, and Well Educated, Clever, Comment!!
39

,

25/06/2009 01:22:42
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40

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 01:22:58


Suzanne! Your 'Wit' is very good, and quite frankly, Very Clever!

41

woodentop,

There 25/06/2009 01:23:34
It's encouraging that the Scotsman has published a balancing view by Dr Buckee.

Is it in the print edition?
42

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 25/06/2009 01:27:16
Well done the Scottish Parliament. You have indeed acted responsibly and courageously.

But why is the report on this matter besmirched with a ragbag of lies and distortions by Dr James Buckee?

Buckee claims "the Thirties was the hottest recent decade" That is false. The decade with the highest global average temperature anomalies ever recorded is the one we are living in at present - from 2000 to 2008. Those years average +0.410C above the 1961-1990 average. The 1930s were over half a degree Celsius cooler, averaging -0.126C. It can easily be seen from the following graph that Buckee is either hasn't a clue what he is talking about or is deliberately lying:

http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/info/warming/

Buckee also implies that the satellite records seriously disagree with the surface records: wrong again, they are in good general agreement, but since they are measuring different things (lower atmosphere versus surface air or sea) exact agreement is not expected.

Buckee also claims "The world has been cooling since about 2000; the oceans are not warming." Again, not true. Ocean heat content is increasing rapidly: indeed the reason for the recent dip in atmospheric temperatures (which is now reversing)was because a La Nina event transferred a lot of heat from the atmosphere to the ocean.

Buckee's other statements are either similarly misinformed, irrelevant or plain wrong.

How much longer must we be subjected to blatant distortions and lies from AGW deniers, particularly those, like Buckee, with connections to the oil industry?
43

Jo Flo,

north o' the lea 25/06/2009 01:31:45
Suzanne, do you knit your clothes from lentils?

Anyway there's more to just climate change here. It's less waste and less land fill.

Less poly bags stuck to trees forever and plastic shoite floatsoming around the shores would be a good thing.

44

,

25/06/2009 01:32:54
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45

,

25/06/2009 01:34:15
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46

Jo Flo,

can someone clean this up 25/06/2009 01:37:19
Charlie boy, put your tongue back in.

You're getting in a froth.

47

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 01:37:48

42 ~woodentop,

Where did you come from?, It is getting better by the minute!

Mind you, we have to take stalk of the matter!

Damaging 'Planet Earth' Must Stop, but there are certain ways to go about it, and the penalising of families in their Homes, is not the way about it!

We all do not have 10.2 Children and 20 immigrant's, living in our Homes, using Mega-Jewels of Power, to keep them all!

48

,

25/06/2009 01:40:24
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49

Jo Flo,

heading 25/06/2009 01:43:19
Like lentil jerseys and drink your own p@ss.
50

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 01:43:43

49 ~Suzanne

Salmond thinks he is on a "tread mill", but can you actually imagine, Him on one?

51

Jo Flo,

Off 25/06/2009 01:46:01
Oh god

Am I in the middle of a bad sit-com?
52

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 01:50:17

52 ~Jo Flo,

NO! You Are Not!

'THIS IS SCOTLAND CALLING'!!!

It is our Freedom of Opinion, Wit, and great Humour, second to none, in our World!

APPRECIATE!

53

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 01:52:40

Or Would you find the Taliban, more exciting?
54

,

25/06/2009 01:53:56
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55

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 01:57:04

55 ~Sorry Suzanne,

They do say that 'Gravity' Plays Havoc, on our Planet at times.

56

,

25/06/2009 01:59:41
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57

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 02:07:43

57 ~Sorry Suzanne,

That sounds good Suzanne!, the problem to save our planet, can be attributed to all the artificial foods we all consume these days, to-which play 'Havoc' to our digestive System, thus creating more unwanted gasses, to-which we will soon be taxed on, it could be a case of,...
...'Watching_your_Rear'

58

,

25/06/2009 02:09:38
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59

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 02:17:57

Suzanne, do you think that the new appointed 'Energy Police' will know the difference from a pair of Boxer Shorts, to a Thong?

I can see it all now, 'Tax_the_Big_Panties'

In space However, they might fall off!

The first Scot in Space, What will He be Wearing, to save Planet Earth?

60

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 02:29:30

I am going to sign out now, as I think that I have used my energy quota for today, and do not want the turbulence's, of the 'energy-police', knocking at my door at 4am.
I bid you all a good-night, suffer as you may, to preserve energy, and not to be a wasteful client of 'Planet Earth'

(but I may be back) :)
61

,

25/06/2009 02:32:21
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62

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 03:02:03

Charles being, 'Mr Average', but with panache, and personality, gives you all the "climate change" that you will ever need, I also look Fantastic, in my tartan thong!

If everyone was like Me, then there would be a "Climate Change", But all for the better, If you Understand!

:))



:))
63

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 03:09:37

61 ~Sorry Suzanne,

"Rolly Polly"

I always thouhgt that that was related to sex.

:DD


64

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 03:14:42

We better not use too much wastfull energy for that!, It will all be 'Measured', under the Blanket, in this new legislation, when we have "climate-change"

65

,

25/06/2009 03:27:21
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66

W Smith,

Middle East 25/06/2009 03:28:52
With more factory closures on the way Scotland can only get greener.

HAPPY NOW SALMOND?
67

Mark Edgar BEng,

Forres, Morayshire, Scotland 25/06/2009 03:33:19
The Scottish local government will not let me recycle a TV, they pay for it to be dumped in a land fill. The people working at the Forres dump say it's not allowed. LOL.

They make people use their own car to drive to the dump with the waste they don't manage.

They do no realise that they are the problem not the solution.

Wake up and stop being idiot's.

More rules, more waste of public money.

Who voted these clowns in?
68

,

25/06/2009 04:28:28
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69

PBUH,

25/06/2009 06:33:02
#67 W Smith:Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
70

Phil C,

25/06/2009 06:40:37
#2 Insomniac

Climate change, polution and energy waste are the biggest long term problems facing this planet. Minor things like economics, warmongery, social justice can all be fixed.

Whether we can do something about climate change remains to be seen. If we don't try, given the knowledge we have, our generation could well go down as the killers of our world. Polution and energy conservation is also extremely important. I don't know if these measures are the answer but they are at the forefront of the efforts to change our wasteful ways. Good consensus stuff from the Scottish government.

There are still far too many with their head in the sand. I just wish we could tap into your irresponsible and selfish vibes.
71

Jerry Springer,

25/06/2009 06:53:16
I pass Bute House every morning. If I see even one empty room with a light on, I will calling the cops (an idea I stole from the SNP).
72

Navvy,

25/06/2009 06:54:45
Notwithstanding any debate of how much CO2 we produce or the causes of global warming and whether it is a natural cycle it is a GOOD THING to be less dependent upon the stored sunlight of fossil fuels. It remains a BAD THING to burn natural gas to make electricity. Natural Gas should be used for what it is an easily transportable, most people can get it by pipe, clean fuel for cooking domestic heating and light industry
73

Morry,

Scotland 25/06/2009 06:56:07
Radical indeed!
And not before time!
74

Herry Oaksters,

25/06/2009 06:58:13
67 W Smith,Middle East.?
Why would Wee Eck by happy that the poxed union is dragging Scotland down?
You come across like a demented labour no mark, a bit like a thick pig in lip stick who made an @rse of herself on newnight the other night.
75

Jerry Springer,

25/06/2009 07:04:38
73 Phil, maybe we should stop extracting oil from the North Sea then?

On the one hand the SNP want to take all the plaudits for setting the sternest green targets for 2020 whilst at the same time the bleat on about Scotland's oil, One of the biggest pollutants known to mankind.
76

Jerry Springer,

25/06/2009 07:10:58
The SNP want to commission more coal fired power stations. Ahead of knowing whether or not carbon capture will work.

Once again, another green con by the SNP.

Do a google search on 'global warning hypocricy' and hit number 1 is a picture of Alex Salmond.
77

Phil C,

25/06/2009 07:20:40
#79 Springer spaniel

No! Keep the oil flowing, we need it. Is it too difficult to accept that we need to cut down on waste and polution? We should all be doing our bit now. I'm sure some budding Scottish genius will come up with an alternative for oil in the enterprising hotbed of new ideas that will come from an independent Scotland.

This was a consensus decision. We don't need your petty sniping. We do need more than fines to fix our planet, but this is a good start, so stop your petulant nonsense.
78

Phil C,

25/06/2009 07:26:34
#80 Tom & Jerry

A little faith goes a long way! Personally I feel we need to find a way of getting rid of nuclear waste safely. Maybe firing it into space with Rufus strapped to the side of the rocket would do the trick!
79

,

25/06/2009 07:26:45
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
80

Faux Cul,

25/06/2009 07:28:56
If this is a Holyrood bill, how come the wee unpolished gray keich has his physog on the banner?
81

Phil C,

25/06/2009 07:32:17
#83 All politicians are mouthpieces, not qualified experts.
82

,

25/06/2009 07:34:52
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
83

english charlie,

25/06/2009 07:46:36
Only 3% of CO2s are man made.
84

Captain Fantastic,

Anywhere but here 25/06/2009 07:47:58
Topical this. Jack Eddy, the astronomer who proved the sun is a major influence on climate died a few days ago. http://tinyurl.com/mxj737
While is is absolute sense to reduce our dependence on energy (but very difficult to achieve for many reasons)it will make absolutely no difference to 'climate change' which is a natural cyclical phenomenom. Our influence is highly debatable, but at worst it is minor (in part of my career I researched the influence of climate change on future building, so I know what I'm talking about). The measures passed by the Scottish Government will have no effect whatsoever, apart from impoverishing Scots, and fuelling the vanity of politicians. Perhaps that's the plan.
85

drew 33,

duddingston 25/06/2009 07:59:36
Wow! Scotland to lead the world on something. Last year on holiday, speaking to five locals, two had never heard of Scotland two thought it was a part of England and one thought it was where Sean Connery "came from".
86

dunedin bully wee 1877,

25/06/2009 08:05:36
82 Phil C

The flaw in your reasoning there is what happens if the rocket finds its way to a hitherto unknown inhabited planet?

It would be a crime against wee “greenmanity” to impose our waste Rufus upon them.
87

Phil C,

25/06/2009 08:13:43
#87 english charlie

Currently, the atmosphere contains about 380 parts per million (ppm) of carbon dioxide, the principal greenhouse gas of concern, compared to levels before the industrial revolution of about 275ppm. I don't know if this is a man made increase, but it's quite a big one! Nearer 40% than 3%.

It doesn't take much to imbalance the environment. Even a 1 degree change in average global temperature will have a big effect on sea levels, and millions of lives.

Why there so much obstruction and petulance towards common sense ideas like cutting waste and being sensible about conservation is beyond me.


88

Phil C,

25/06/2009 08:15:32
#90 Oops!! (He's a thick-skinned old bird, but he might not survive the journey though!)
89

carrottop,

Dumfries 25/06/2009 08:17:33

Meanwhile back in the real Scotland Dumfries council has decided to scrap the waste paper collection and cut back on recycling.

Still in the real Scotland the SNP (everything is free) is running short of money (surprise) and is having to cut back council jobs.

God help us if the SNP ever get full responsibility for raising taxes.
90

Jerry Springer,

25/06/2009 08:18:00
I see one of Scotland's biggest producers of hot air, Bully Boy, has arrived.

If under sea carbon capture becomes a reality, it would definitely benefit everyone if we could store him down there along with all the other pollutants that everyone is keen to avoid.
91

Climate change is real,

25/06/2009 08:19:45
Quite why the Scotsman gave space to James Buckee is beyond me. His assertions are easily rebutted by reference to Grist Mill.

"Natural cycle" http://www.grist.org/article/current-global-warming-is-just-part-of-a-natural-cycle/

"Concrete" http://www.grist.org/article/warming-is-due-to-the-urban-heat-island-effect/

"Computer models" http://www.grist.org/article/climate-models-are-unproven/

"The world is now cooling" http://www.grist.org/article/global-warming-stopped-in-1998/


92

Jerry Springer,

25/06/2009 08:21:58
Carrottop, SNP with full fiscal responsibility? That really is not a worry you should have.

There is a higher chance of Salmond winning Slimmer of the Year.
93

Graeme,

Guangzhou 25/06/2009 08:23:28
The ice caps have been melting for 15,000 years. Must be our fault.
94

Phil C,

25/06/2009 08:25:01
#96 Watch out. Apparently Salmond's on the Slimfast and the weight's just falling off. It's costing us £162.47 per month but it's worth every penny! Fiscal responsibility next?
95

Phil C,

25/06/2009 08:25:48
#97 They're melting a hell of a lot faster than they were!
96

Unimpressed one,

25/06/2009 08:27:20
#79, Gerry springer.

How true. If Holyrood actually believed this tripe it would immediately cease all oil and gas extraction to set an example to the rest of the world. But of course it's all window dressing. No government in the world will forgo access to its sources of fossil fuels and so extraction will continue apace.

Slioch, I see you are still in denial over the fact that Hansen was proven a liar and a fraud with his claims of the hottest years. Even the most rabid ranters of this manure concede that Watt and McKitrick were correct. Even Hansen's own employer, NASA, admits he was wrong and they were right. Typical warmist attitute - green lies are true but the 'denialists' are never right except when they're not wrong.

As for Scotland 'showing the world',the measures put in place will all unravel long before 2020 when the economics are shown to be pure madness. Of course the politicians will not back down, and thet will claim they are led by the 'science' of it all. No, once the legislation becomes progressively more restrictive, people (and businesses will have voted with their feet before this point is reached) will be involved in a campaign of civil disobedience, possibly similar to the poll tax reaction, that will ensure that the shining example of Scottish 'concern for the planet' will be quickly shelved.

As a nation we can't do anything of significance on the world stage today, but shouting about this climate bill is akin to a drunk at a party trying to chat up every female there and thinking everyone should fancy him.
97

Graeme,

Guangzhou 25/06/2009 08:31:58
#99. How do you know? There must have been a heck of a lot of peaks and troughs over 15,000.00 years.
98

morris,

edinburgh 25/06/2009 08:34:35
29 I think you apply to Suzanne.She is the sole member in Scotland as far as I can tell.She may even be the entire membership !

Who the devil are the Eco Party? I know who the Green formerly Ecology Party are because I seriously considered joining them once,then concluded that independence is my priority and divisions within the Nationalist vote are counter productive.

Im all for saving our environment but so far I place the Eco Party below the effectiveness of a chocolate fireguard.If they do exist they sure know how to keep a secret !
Come on Suzanne! Who and what are you?
99

John Cameron,

St Andrews 25/06/2009 08:38:25
I had wondered why the Scottish Parliament was so hung up on this Global Warming nonsense. I assumed it must be because the average SMP is pretty stupid and any way, there are amoeba on Mars with a greater understanding of Physics than the average politician. Now I realize it was all about creating a new source of revenue. Oh well, I suppose "tax and spend and fail" (i.e. poltics as usual) makes a lot more sense than some perceived need for medieval windmills parked out in the bay.
100

Phil C,

25/06/2009 08:43:00
#101 Graeme

I agree but all the 'expert' reports I see tend to suggest relatively rapid change. I just don't understand why there is so much opposition to cutting waste and polution. You, apparently in China, should be more aware than anyone of the damage being done.
101

morris,

edinburgh 25/06/2009 08:43:21
97 Scientists are divided over many things,not least of all Global Warming and its causes.

Faced with the choice of (1)assuming we are the cause and trying to cause less damage
and
(2) Whistling dixie and wishing we had built Nohas Ark.
I think the former makes infinitely more sense EVEN IF IT PROVES TO BE NONSENSE !
It sounds a bit like opening the bottle with the skull and crossbones on it and drinking the lot to find out if its poisonous or not.Actually its not even that sensible because if one drinks EVERYBODY DRINKS in this case!
102

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 08:44:02
I wonder why there is no mention above of the previous activities of James Buckee ('expert' quoted at length above) when he was with Talisman Energy of Canada:

In March 2006, CEO Jim Buckee said 'Talisman will "monetize" its properties in the oil sands region, an area said to hold the world's second-largest undeveloped oil reserves, behind only Saudi Arabia.'

Not exactly neutral on this issue then.
103

El Franko,

25/06/2009 08:47:39
Well done Jenny and the Scotsman for publishing a dissenting view about this lunatic legislation!

I hope we shall, as in Australia, see a lot more of such opinions from now on. The dismal lack of them in the media has, one presumes, been one reason why our baby parliament has shown itself to be so vulnerable to the AGW lobbyists with their alarmist distortions and ugly agendas.

Let us hope that this legislation will be repealed within months rather than years. A suitably intelligent and informed media could expose the farce in and around the Copenhagen conference in December, and a repeal would surely follow.
104

DialMforMurdoX,

25/06/2009 08:48:55
If the Scottish Parliament brought this bill into being, why is the little Gray man pictured at the top of the page? Was he instrumental in pushing it through?
105

morris,

edinburgh 25/06/2009 08:53:14
108 A good question! One which Johnston Press only could possibly answer>maybe its in anticipation of Labours excellent showing in the opinion polls and the expected replacement of Salmond any day now ?

At least the Scotsman can claim to be first with the latest ,in this case about twenty years ahead of schedule!
106

Phil C,

25/06/2009 08:55:44
#108 Yes, he got his way with a 42% target as opposed to the SNP's prefered 34%. It was a unanimous decision though. All hail consensus common sense!
107

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 08:57:33
My God!!!!

The nazi state finally HAS arrived in Scotland.

How the hell did we allow these despotic lunatics into power? They propose to fine home-owners for failing to upgrade their central heating boilers for christs sake. This is worse than nazism. The world has never seen the like of it before---not even in oppressive regimes like North Korea or Communist China.

How the hell are they able to get away with it?
108

Not gay,

Huntly 25/06/2009 08:57:36
The best way to reduce pollution and waste of energy in Scotland would be to close down the hot air factory in Holyrood.
It has been the most costly waste of space and energy this past ten years.
The Green Brigade seem to want to forget that according to Darwin and his ilk we are constantly evolving as is the earth, therefore, we will have times when the earth heats up and times when it cools down - we will not have the catastrophe they predict.
109

Unimpressed one,

25/06/2009 08:59:47
#106, Fredbloggs


As opposed to Dixon who represents a charity whose income depends on scaring donors into thinking that the world is doomed because of CO2 and that by giving money to them they can somehow make a difference?
110

,

25/06/2009 09:00:57
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111

Andy Ritchie's left boot,

25/06/2009 09:02:20
I fear that man made climate change is the new millenium bug.

Is it not the case that the fervour with which this still-dubious business is being pushed through by politicians, few of whom know the difference between carbon and carbon dioxide, is a case of the emperor's new clothes?

I still haven't had a satisfactory explanation as to how the Romans used to grow grapes in Britain, and how CO2 levels were much higher 120,000 years ago than they are now - no human CO2 emission 120k years ago.
112

Graeme,

Guangzhou 25/06/2009 09:03:33
#104. Yes and I am in China and if you could see the environmental destruction going on here you would understand that anything Scotland does is the proverbial P155 in the Pacific Ocean. Nice if the feel good factor is there for you lot but let’s face it and look at the real reason. New and further taxation.

If the politicians were really going to be concerned and useful they should put pressure on the real polluters. Emerging economies. But that would not generate more tax.
113

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 25/06/2009 09:09:39
True to form Jerry/Rufus the Labour lapdog has to demean this bill.
the science may be blurred but can we afford to take the chance?

Consensus politics has given Scotland a bill that may just be signifigant in the saving of our planet.

However because of his total obedience to Labour and Westminster Rufus and other unionist trolls have to attack anything SNP or Scotland.

This behaviour is exactly the reason we must have independence to rid ourselves of these negative doom merchants.
114

morris,

edinburgh 25/06/2009 09:10:22
110 The higher target is less likely to be met of course,and is "another broken promise" by the SNP in the planning stages .I can hear dipstick Gray rehearsing saying it now! If Labour had been in power we would have achieved 103% !

A realistic target has some benefit, but what matters is what level of success is actually achieved. So far the SNP has nothing to worry about.They surpassed Labours 8 years in the first 8 months !

Labour targets are best demonstrated by Brown and Darlings forecasts on the economy.
I see a very senior figure in the finance world deserted the sinking ship yesterday and spelled out loudly that whilst a recession exists,the UK was deep in the brown stuff long before that and it was Brown who caused it through excessive borrowing (and since then,his Darling mate of course).
115

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 09:10:29
A thought for all the insane morons who support this kind of thing...

Consider for a minute the cost in terms of energy and resources expended on the measures to SAVE energy and resources.

The "cash back for cars" or whatever is a prime example. By my estimates, you could probably keep a 10-year-old, large engined, luxury car running for another five years at least for less total "environmental" cost than it takes to make an underpowered 1-litre Euro-box.

It is far more environmentally friendly to keep an older car on the road and properly maintained than it is to keep building new cars every five years.

This kid of thing is typical of the stupid, ill-thought-out "logic" of the green brigade. As another example, why scrap a perfectly good boiler for one that uses a tiny bit less gas than the older one does? This kind of thing just does not make sense.

Yes. I can agree with reducing packaging---that is something I have been saying for a long time---and I can see the point in proper home insulation. As for the rest of it, it's a cross between toytown and Nazism.
116

jdships,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 09:10:39
103 John Cameron

Thank you for a common sense poest !!!
Anyone hazard a guess what this going to cost to administer ?
Serious question -
Where , also, does this leave SNP's love of coal fired power stations and the obsession with Nth Sea oil

117

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 25/06/2009 09:10:51
#95 Climate change is real
"Quite why the Scotsman gave space to James Buckee is beyond me. His assertions are easily rebutted"

and #106 Fred Bloggs

Correct. (see #43 above). It is one thing for a journalist to provide balance in an article, quite another to provide a platform for a misinformer like Dr James Buckee, until recently CEO of the Canadian oil company Talisman. Anyone with any knowledge about global warming will know that what he says is false and anyone with a respect for truth and honesty would say so. So why does The Scotsman publish such stuff?

If The Scotsman wished to provide balance to the above article it would have been better to find someone concerned about the financial and social costs of CO2 reduction measures - at least that could be a legitimate source of concern.

Dr James Buckee's contribution is a farrago of self-serving misinformation and falsehoods.
118

morris,

edinburgh 25/06/2009 09:12:42
114 So they have branches everywhere yes? Or is it trees maybe?
119

Harbinger,

In the real world 25/06/2009 09:15:20
Ah, Slioch is at it again, trying to baffle with pseudo science and quoting the delightfully deceptive graphs from CRU. The period 1961-90 which the Met Office uses to say current temperatures are "above average" was one of the coldest of the 20th century. The 30 year average was 9.47 C. The period 1931-1960 was 9.6 C, ie warmer than 61-90, in spite of increasing CO2.

Average summer temperature for 1721-50 was actually 0.15 degrees warmer than average summer temperature for 61-90, whilst that 30 year period year average was only 0.11 cooler than 61-90.

Wow, 0.11 degrees in 240 years and all that cO2. Some warming eh?

Even Phil Jones knows it's true: Climatic Research Unit: Information sheets: 3: UK Weather and Climate (CET/EWP) "…seasonal and annual temperatures for the entire CET series…. show unprecedented warmth during the 1990s, but earlier decades such as the 1730s and 1820s are comparable."

He doesn't of course explain how that could happen in the absence of 20th century CO2 levels.
120

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 09:18:08
113. unimpressed:

In 2007 James Buckee's take home salary as CEO of Talisman Energy was, $21,764,501.

Even I would tell lies about climate change for that kind of money.
121

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 09:19:36
#115:

"I fear that man made climate change is the new millenium bug."

You are probably right. Only with the milennium bug they were rigidly tieed down to a specific date and time. Have you ever seen a prediction from the "climate change" brigade that is forecast to actually happen within the natural life-span of anyone alive today? I certainly haven't for one.

As time goes on, they will continue to move the "dealines" right, so that they cannot be disproven and the revenue streams will keep flowing... and the oppression and control can continue.

Unless something is done, we do however know now that by 2020, Scotland will be a nazi state.
122

,

25/06/2009 09:22:08
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123

Phil C,

25/06/2009 09:27:21
#116 Graeme

You never know, if every little country looked after itself, the bigger ones might follow the lead. The cumulative effect may be earth-saving! It's easier to change a small country than a big one. Hence my belief in an independent Scotland, whatever the arguments are against it.

BTW I went through Guangzhou (not very pretty) 30 years ago on my way to Guilin (truly beautiful). We must clean up the not so good to keep the good bits.
124

morris,

edinburgh 25/06/2009 09:27:47
126 First I will need to have grandchildren Suzanne .That may take a while longer .


Actually I was surprised to learn that you have 130,000 members.
That is a lot higher than I had expected (about 129,000 higher ) so I acknowledge that you exist.It would help if you had some kind of site where people could at least verify this however?
125

fat lord prodder,

somewhere in alba 25/06/2009 09:28:27
#9 i bet you were one of the first to grab shares when the wicked witch of the south,sold off public utillity firms and lived the life of a drunken lord for a decade
do you really think we scots would allow some jumped up wee nazi to tell us how to live?,if we pay for our power then we can burn it
and what about all those single parents with power card meters,who have subsidised those who pay direct debit,its been shown that power card users have been ripped off rotten
yes we can all do our bit,by turning off appliances not being used etc
but you just took it too far with your rant
126

drew 33,

duddingston 25/06/2009 09:28:32
106fred bloggs,Edinburgh
"In March 2006, CEO Jim Buckee said 'Talisman will "monetize" its properties in the oil sands region, an area said to hold the world's second-largest undeveloped oil reserves, behind only Saudi Arabia.'
Not exactly neutral on this issue then"
Along with your mentor Slioch you keep spouting this rubbish about energy companies putting out dis-information. Energy companies are great financial contributors to the green brigade, all in their own self interest. How else would they behave? As owners of a dwindling resource, keen to maximise profits, sell low volumes at high prices! The Canadian tar sands you mention are only viable with oil at $70+. The more vocal the green brigade and the more tax imposed on oil the less important increases in the basic oil price (and profits) become.


127

nabodican,

Newton Stewart 25/06/2009 09:34:34
This bill clearly demonstrates the ignorance of our MSP's
It is an embarrassment to Scotland as well as being completely unworkable.
While items like plastic bags and packaging have a certain credence, the rest is total cobblers.
The science is not settled and there is no concensus.
The science has never been debated or peer reviewed.
All we have is alarmist rantings of the likes of Al Gore and the political puppets in the IPCC.
CO2 is not the cause of warming /cooling
The ice polar ice caps are not melting other than normal summer melt.
The sea levels are not rising.
Thank goodness for a bit of common sense and realism from Jim Buckee.
128

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 25/06/2009 09:35:11
#100 Unimpressed one stated, "Slioch, I see you are still in denial over the fact that Hansen was proven a liar and a fraud with his claims of the hottest years. Even the most rabid ranters of this manure concede that Watt and McKitrick were correct. Even Hansen's own employer, NASA, admits he was wrong and they were right. Typical warmist attitute - green lies are true but the 'denialists' are never right except when they're not wrong."

I despair of you ever showing the ability to understand even the simplest situations. The very minor adjustments to the NASA GISS temperature record, to which I assume you refer, were concerned ONLY with temperature records within the contiguous USA. There they resulted in very small changes in which in the USA, 1998 (1.24 ºC anomaly compared to 1951-1980) was previously just warmer than 1934 (1.23 ºC). After the adjustment 1934 was 1.25ºC vs. 1.23ºC for 1998 .

This minor adjustment in a small (c. 2%) area of the Earth made no discernible difference to the GLOBAL average temperature record, in which the the 1930s were much cooler than the present decade.
129

Graeme,

Guangzhou 25/06/2009 09:40:14
127, Phil.

Dreaming on that one when hard cash is involved. But an independent Scotland might not be so bad if there was an alternative to the numpties in power!

30 to 20 years ago this part of the country was all farmland and beautiful and you could see for miles. Now more like 2 km on a good day. Slowly getting better though as the Hong Kong industry is moving more inland to take up the less expensive labour (try to stop that one!).
130

fat lord prodder,

somewhere in alba 25/06/2009 09:40:32
maybe this is a big con,by ben labourite elton,wanting his young ones back on tv well there is enough tree hugging neils out there
lol
131

english charlie,

25/06/2009 09:45:02
When the sun gets hotter, we get hotter. When the sun gets cooler, we get cooler. The vast majority of CO2s are produced by rotting vegetation, erupting volcanoes, cows f@rting and sheep burping.
132

sceptic,

livingston 25/06/2009 09:46:06
Wonderful 42% reduction in emissions by 2020! Let's get on with all these economically mad schemes to produce energy from so-called renewable sources . Result, manufacturing and business generally becomes even more uncompetitive. Is it any surprise that computers printers and just about everything else has/is moving to China,Korea, Poland or just about anywhere except Scotland/UK.
133

Euan,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 09:46:12
I'm glad that The Scotsman has actually published a small part on what Dr James Buckee has been saying, because as far as I'm concerned this man is very much in the right.

We are so often fed blinkered, unfounded reports of 'climate change' these days by people who think that, for whatever reason, they better than the world's top scientists and meteorologists.

What we are seeing here is things getting way out of hand with politicians using the 'green' agenda to try and gain more votes - it's plain and simple.

I'm all for making things more efficient and feel we should all try to reduce waste and recycle what we can. However, for the powers-that-be to start fining people for what would be, in the grand scheme of things, absolutely miniscule issues, is very worrying scenario indeed.

To have the Government say that a person would be fined for not insulating their roof for example is utterly ridiculous. If this person chooses not to do this, it's their choice not to do this. More the fool them as they'd have to pay more in heating bills over the course of a year, but it's their money they'd be paying out, so what's the problem?

I leave my Hi-Fi equipment on 24/7 to keep it warmed up and ready to use at any time, it's my choice to do this and as I pay the electricity bill, it's no-one else's business whether I do this or not. So what are they going to do?, send someone round to turn off my power sockets?!

This whole thing is ridiculous. We are all now being forced to pay because of the 'man-made climate change' myth..

..and all to keep the politicians looking good and feeling wonderful.




134

fat lord prodder,

somewhere in alba 25/06/2009 09:47:06
#135
and the masses of methane produce by lentil munchers
135

Euan,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 09:50:17
#135

The VAST majority of CO2 is produced by the world's oceans through water evaporation, a figure I believe is around 89%.



136

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 09:52:53
130. Drew said:

'Along with your mentor Slioch you keep spouting this rubbish about energy companies putting out dis-information.'

How naive can you get?

Do some research, e.g.:

http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/campaigns/global-warming-and-energy/exxon-secrets
137

weeberti,

lemo land 25/06/2009 09:55:20
Reading these posts dose anyone agree that sorry suzanne is the most horrible person in Scotland, all she dose is insult people with a differant view from her. 130.000 eco registered, magic but i hope they are nothing like you.
138

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 09:56:07
140 cont:

'After years of denying its role in the campaign of climate denial, Exxon has revealed a dirty secret, that it has and likely still is DIRECTLY funding junk scientists.'
139

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 09:57:20
142 cont:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_denial
140

seanie,

25/06/2009 09:59:07
The 'error' regarding the ranking of 1934 as the hottest American year on record instead of 1998 most certainly does not matter as regards global temperature records.

Particularly when you look at Hansen's original paper.

http://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/docs/2001/2001_Hansen_etal.pdf

"The U.S. annual (January-December) mean temperature is slightly warmer in 1934 than in 1998 in the GISS analysis (Plate 6). This contrasts with the USHCN data, which has 1998 as the warmest year in the century. In both cases the difference between 1934 and 1998 mean temperatures is a few hundredths of a degree. The main reason that 1998 is relatively cooler in the GISS analysis is its larger adjustment for urban warming. In comparing temperatures of years separated by 60 or 70 years the uncertainties in various adjustments (urban warming, station history adjustments, etc.) lead to an uncertainty of at least 0.1°C. Thus it is not possible to declare a record U.S. temperature with confidence until a result is obtained that exceeds the temperature of 1934 by more than 0.1°C."

Hansen explicitly said that you couldn't declare 1998 warmer than 1934 since the difference between them was within the margin of error.

After the 'correction' the difference between 1934 and 1998,in the US temperature record, was still within the margin of error.
141

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 09:59:56
See also 'The Truth about Denial':

http://www.newsweek.com/id/32482
142

seanie,

25/06/2009 10:00:09
Prior to the data correction the hottest years in the US according to USHCN, in descending order, were;

1998, 1934, 2006, 1921, 1931, 1999, 1953, 2001, 1990 and 1938.

Although 1998 and 1934 were effectively tied since the difference between them was much smaller than the margin of error. After the correction the new rankings were;

1934, 1998, 1921, 2006, 1931, 1999, 1953, 1990, 1938 and 1939.

1934 and 1998 were still effectively tied; 1921 and 2006 changed places; 2001 dropped out and 1939 came in. And of course, since this only affected the US record it had a infinitesimal impact on the global record.
143

The Strategist,

25/06/2009 10:03:47
Because we don't make any of the stuff we need to achieve these targets the damage it will do to our balance of trade will be huge. We have to start investing in clean tech manufacturing companies not just to satisfy our own demand but to develop an export business.
144

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 25/06/2009 10:09:07
#123 Harbinger stated, "The period 1961-90 which the Met Office uses to say current temperatures are "above average" was one of the coldest of the 20th century."

That is untrue and also irrelevant. The MET Office graph to which you refer is of average annual GLOBAL temperatures: you refer only to central England temperatures in your post. The GLOBAL average temperature 1961-1990 was warmer than the average for the twentieth century as a whole, so your statement is untrue. But it also irrelevant because it makes not the slightest difference which period is used as the baseline. As one is referring to temperature "anomalies" (ie changes from a baseline) one has to define some baseline, but it does not matter which as long as it is within the range of the data series in question. That is what the MET office has done: the period 1961 to 1990 is also fairly recent, which makes it convenient.

Which period would you choose and why?

As for all the rest of your confused post: you are referring to the Central England Temperature record. If you want to know about global warming it's a good idea to look at the global temperature record, and as Phil Jones states at the beginning of the article to which you refer:

"Global temperatures are rising and have now reached unprecedented levels compared to the last millennium."

Get it?
145

sceptic,

livingston 25/06/2009 10:11:14
OK Slioch/Senie/fred Bloggs, let's have your excuses. Now into the thelfth year since the global temperature peaked. Absolutely no evidence whatsoever of much change in the near future, increasing ice at the poles, the global temperature, even as measured by the surface stations, many of whose validity have been questioned, showing an accelerating downward trend when smoothed using the Met Office's favoured 21 point binomial filter.
http://hadobs.metoffice.com/hadcrut3/diagnostics/comparison.html
146

dunedin bully wee 1877,

25/06/2009 10:11:32
141 weeberti

I suspect that “sorry Suzanne “is neither in Scotland or even a female.

There is no “Beezer Book of Jokes”, neither is there an “Eco Party”.

SS is a rather weird individual who may turn out to be one of the Rufus alter egos, and if sufficiently ignored will probably go away.


147

daveserviceman,

edinburgh 25/06/2009 10:12:02
The day of the stazi has arrived,
I can foresee more pensioners dying of hypothermia in the cold weather because they are too scared to switch on the heating incase the stazi knock on their doors demanding heavy fines or dragged them off to prison. But maybe this is the plan if all the pensioners die off with hypothermia the parliament will save money on pensions social payments and care allowances and of course eliminate the need for any care homes, I include all the housebound disabled as well nice to have a government that advocates the above by stealth
148

Dumfries,

25/06/2009 10:18:04
Dear sicasapig

If you don't like it leave. Great. I seem to have heard that before. Didn't Hitler say that to the German Jews in the 1930s before he started gassing them all? They only had themselves to blame you see. Welcome to the best wee fascist totalitarian state in the world.
149

sceptic,

livingston 25/06/2009 10:19:37
140fred bloggs,Edinburgh
As usual a bit of personal insult together with a reference to an unimpeachable source - "greenpeace". No comment on the actual post - of course. Seems that like Slioch and Senie you prefer the last refuge of the lost argument, ad hominem insults.
150

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 10:19:46
#12 Hoblar - "Labour just pushed for the number 42% with no evidence or research or policy" - 42 is, in fact, a very significant number. It's The Answer to Life, The Universe And Everything. Only problem was that nobody understood the Answer because they hadn't a clue what the Question was. Very much like the wee pretendy politicians in the Scotch Parliament, in fact.
151

seanie,

25/06/2009 10:19:51
1998 was a very hot year, probably the hottest individual year since records began, but average temperatures have risen since then.

The last five years were warmer than the five before, which in turn were warmer than the five before them.

1990-1999 is the hottest complete decade in the instrumental record, but the decade we're currently in, 2000-2009 is going to surpass it.
152

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 25/06/2009 10:19:53
#139 Euan claimed, "The VAST majority of CO2 is produced by the world's oceans through water evaporation, a figure I believe is around 89%."

That is not true. The oceans are net absorbers of CO2. One way of confirming that is by their increasing acidity (when CO2 dissolves in water it creates a weakly acidic solution). The oceans are currently are absorbing nearly half of the 30 billion tons of CO2 that humans are producing annually from burning fossil fuels.
153

Mr. Borat Sagdiyev,

Kuzcek, Kazakhstan 25/06/2009 10:25:06
A truly tragic piece of legislation which will lead to more loss of freedom and result in people and businesses being financially bled dry for every remaining penny they have.

Time to fight this nonsense folks before we lose it all.
154

El Franko,

25/06/2009 10:27:46
Someone has compiled a useful set of clearly-presented temperature charts. If anyone has the misfortune to have seanie or a Slioch in their pub or club, and you have not yet become bored with baiting them, here is a place to go: http://heresmything.blogstream.com/v1/pid/313765.html

155

dunedin bully wee 1877,

25/06/2009 10:28:53
74 Rufus,

“I pass Bute House every morning.”

This being the case no doubt you will be able to explain why this is now possible, and was previously impossible, unless you are on foot.
156

Dumfries,

25/06/2009 10:29:09
I thought Slioch would turn up. slioch thinks he knows all about global warming but he doesn't. Slioch's chemistry is not too good. He thinks nitrogen is not a greenhouse gas because it has strong bonds. Wrong! No marks, go to the bottom of the class.

Sorry Slioch, the Argo bouys launched in 2003 can find no trace of ocean warming. They even thought they were not working. Now that is not science. That is deciding the experiment before it even started. Where does your evidence for warming oceans come from?
157

sceptic,

25/06/2009 10:30:15
144seanie,
"After the 'correction' the difference between 1934 and 1998,in the US temperature record, was still within the margin of error."
Yep, says it all really, 64 years and the temperature unchanged and every one of the past 11 years colder than either.
158

,

25/06/2009 10:30:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
159

morris,

edinburgh 25/06/2009 10:31:27
150 It does seem incredible that a political party which has/claims to have 130,000 registered members has no site,no record of existence, no candidates,no track record,and we are privileged to know the only one who can be identified I agree.

Of course we had numerous political parties from the left wing of the spectrum who met in secret at a bar table in the Cafe Royal etc in order to keep a low profile,turned up (both of them) at a rally organised by somebody else and took a picture of themselves for publication in their official party newspaper claiming to have personally brought about a major policy change. No mean achievement when they couldn't even field a candidate!
If this party really exists then I suggest they up their game plan to the next level, which could be anything at all!
160

seanie,

25/06/2009 10:32:08
Nitrogen isn't a greenhouse gas.
161

,

25/06/2009 10:33:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
162

seanie,

25/06/2009 10:34:06
#161 For the contiguous USA.

The issue is GLOBAL warming.

The USA is not the GLOBE.

Go figure.
163

Mrblack,

Fife 25/06/2009 10:35:31
Globalwarming climate change is an artificially engineered concept with the sole purpose of exerting control over the population. Unfortunately the SNP are a little niave and have bought into this agenda. Whilst it is a very good thing for scotland to be energy independent CO2 supports global warming is an unproven concept base don bad science. CO2 is an essential life gas that exists in balance with oxygen to support life. To claim CO2 as a danger to us is to claim life itself especially human life is a dangerous poison. It sets a number of dangerous precedents. Nowadays we know the war on terror is a fraud so In order to justify there agendas governments need to create an enemy and what better than CO2. Its indefinite, the enemy is you and people will happily support it if they think its saving the earth. There ar emuch greater more immediate dangers to us scots related to the enviroment such as the death of the bumble bees, GM crops etc. Do your research and you will find behind closed doors bankers and governments have been developing this fraud since the sixties. Here is a quote from the club of Rome cronies which includes al gore,brezinski and other such proponents of global warming
“The common enemy of humanity is man.
In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up
with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming,
water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill. All these
dangers are caused by human intervention, and it is only through
changed attitudes and behavior that they can be overcome.
The real enemy then, is humanity itself."

Remmeber its Al gore you will pay your carbon taxes too.....



164

seanie,

25/06/2009 10:38:55
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2008/06/ocean-heat-content-revisions/

"This isn't going to be the last word on OHC trends, and different groups are going to be publishing their own versions of this analyses relatively soon and updates to the most recent years are still forthcoming. But the big picture is that ocean heat content has indeed been increasing in recent decades, just like the models said it should."
165

seanie,

25/06/2009 10:39:06
http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/climate-change/dn14527

"Since 1999, however, the heat content of the oceans has steadily increased again (despite claims to the contrary)."
166

seanie,

25/06/2009 10:39:17
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080618143301.htm

"New research suggests that ocean temperature and associated sea level increases between 1961 and 2003 were 50 percent larger than estimated in the 2007 Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change report."

"Although observations and models confirm that recent warming is greatest in the upper ocean, there are widespread observations of warming deeper than 700 meters."
167

seanie,

25/06/2009 10:39:50
http://www.pnas.org/content/104/26/10768.abstract

"Observations show both a pronounced increase in ocean heat content (OHC) over the second half of the 20th century and substantial OHC variability on interannual-to-decadal time scales. Although climate models are able to simulate overall changes in OHC, they are generally thought to underestimate the amplitude of OHC variability. Using simulations of 20th century climate performed with 13 numerical models, we demonstrate that the apparent discrepancy between modeled and observed variability is largely explained by accounting for changes in observational coverage and instrumentation and by including the effects of volcanic eruptions. Our work does not support the recent claim that the 0- to 700-m layer of the global ocean experienced a substantial OHC decrease over the 2003 to 2005 time period. We show that the 2003–2005 cooling is largely an artifact of a systematic change in the observing system, with the deployment of Argo floats reducing a warm bias in the original observing system."
168

Mr. Borat Sagdiyev,

Kuzcek, Kazakhstan 25/06/2009 10:40:20
Let's face it folks, there's no point arguing with the CyberEcoNazis. They love to incessantly ram their EcoNazi propaganda down everyone's throats and get angry when someone dares question them. The answer is always "well what evidfence do you have?".

The fact is that we are all so pished off with the EcoNazi plot to destroy civilisation that we can't be bothered arguing with them - all we get is the same old mince, tons of meaningless made-up figures and countless internet links posted Ad Nauseum.

Let's face it, we all have better things to do than argue with sad individuals who have a chip on their shoulder against any form of progress in society. Rather we should use our time to fight small-minded and dangerous legislation like this which will destroy our futures.
169

seanie,

25/06/2009 10:42:48
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/OceanCooling/page1.php

"So the new Argo data were too cold, and the older XBT data were too warm, and together, they made it seem like the ocean had cooled,” says Willis. The February evening he discovered the mistake, he says, is “burned into my memory.” He was supposed to fly to Colorado that weekend to give a talk on “ocean cooling” to prominent climate researchers. Instead, he’d be talking about how it was all a mistake.
170

Dumfries,

25/06/2009 10:43:20
Edward #32

Exact measurements of Scotland's emissions are difficult to determine since we are lumped with the UK but I can give you rough figures. Scotland is responsible for about 0.15% of global carbon emissions so even if global warming were all caused by these our contribution would be tiny. BP publishes energy data expressed as millions of tons of oil equiv ( it includes hydro and nuclear but I won't get involved with that complexity just to keep it simple). In 2009, the UK used 211.6 mtoe so Scotlands total would be about 20 mtoe. To put this into perspective China increased its energy use in the last year by 140 mtoe, that's just the increase. Globally the world used 11294.9 mtoe last year. Scotland relatively large hydro and nuclear contribution brings the percentage in emission terms down to 0.15% approx. Scotland's emissions come from transport, space heating, and electrical equipment. Much of our heating is natural gas and they have yet to invent a wind turbine that produces methane.
171

Ewan Oosami,

25/06/2009 10:43:27
For the SNP to think they can influence the global warming scam will be like trying to stop a hurricane by passing wind. Get China,India and USA to reduce their emissions would have some impact especially if the SNP decided to stop emitting so much hot air as well
172

morris,

edinburgh 25/06/2009 10:45:20
167

Lets see now.The greatest scientific minds of our day cannot agree on whether we are contributing to our own downfall or not. Lets choose to agree with the ones who (if they are wrong) will screw up the planet,mankind and life as we know it.
That makes infinitely more sense than playing as safe as we can until we do know what we are talking about.
Thank God we have people who have no qualification to make these assessments.Heaven forbid that we should exercise caution just because a few thousand scientists suspect something is happening ! It makes much more sense to just presume we are okay. Of course it does !
173

broadgait,

gullane 25/06/2009 10:47:10
#149
"OK Slioch/Senie/fred Bloggs, let's have your excuses. Now into the thelfth year since the global temperature peaked. Absolutely no evidence whatsoever of much change in the near future, increasing ice at the poles, the global temperature, even as measured by the surface stations, many of whose validity have been questioned, showing an accelerating downward trend when smoothed using the Met Office's favoured 21 point binomial filter.
http://hadobs.metoffice.com/hadcrut3/diagnostics/comparison.html"

Give them time to think up an insult or blame the oil companies!
174

seanie,

25/06/2009 10:49:56
http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/hadcrut3gl.txt

The HADCRU anomalies averaged over five year periods.

1994-1998: + 0.296
1999-2003: + 0.382
2004-2008: + 0.416

So the most recent five year period is warmer than the previous five years, which itself is warmer than the period before that.
175

seanie,

25/06/2009 10:50:10
The GISS anomalies;

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/tabledata/GLB.Ts+dSST.txt

The anomalies averaged over five year periods.

1994-1998: + 0.38
1999-2003: + 0.45
2004-2008: + 0.53

Again the most recent five year period is warmer than the previous five years, which itself is warmer than the period before that.
176

seanie,

25/06/2009 10:50:20
http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/info/warming/gtc2008.csv

The last decade of the 20th century averaged 0.268°C above the 61-90 baseline.

So far this century is averaging at 0.428°C above the baseline.

It a very safe bet that the first decade of the 21st century will end up the warmest since records began.
177

seanie,

25/06/2009 10:50:33
The smoothed HADCRU average going back to 1988.

1988 - 0.122
1989 - 0.136
1990 - 0.149
1991 - 0.162
1992 - 0.177
1993 - 0.194
1994 - 0.215
1995 - 0.24
1996 - 0.267
1997 - 0.295
1998 - 0.323
1999 - 0.348
2000 - 0.37
2001 - 0.389
2002 - 0.403
2003 - 0.413
2004 - 0.419
2005 - 0.42
2006 - 0.419
2007 - 0.415
2008 - 0.411

You'll see it has dropped from the highpoint in 2005 but it's higher than the start of the century and the figures towards the end of the series are increasingly provisional. Given the temperature in 2008 was depressed by a strong La Nina, the smoothed anomaly will most likely be revised upwards over the next few years.
178

seanie,

25/06/2009 10:51:49
The scope for natural variability, year to year, is far greater than the underlying warming trend. Variability day to day and month to month is even greater than annual variability, making short term predictions HARDER than longer term ones. So deriving trends across short periods is essentially meaningless; even five year averages aren't necessarily going to show consistent warming. Natural events such as a La Nina or a major volcanic eruption could result in a significant temporary cooling that drives the average down. But even that would not be inconsistent with an underlying warming trend, because such effects are temporary.

The simplest way to filter out the 'noise' of natural variation and identify any trend is to average out temperatures in some way. There are various ways to do it, with varying degrees of complexity, but it's a perfectly straightforward and entirely valid way of interpreting the data that itself doesn't 'promote' any particular result. It just filters out the noise.

So, knowing that, look at the HADCRU and GISS graphs showing 'smoothed' or averaged temperatures.

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/Fig.A2.lrg.gif

http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/info/warming/gtc2008.pdf

In both cases, is the average temperature (as represented by the smoothed average) higher now than ten years ago?

Yes it is.
179

seanie,

25/06/2009 10:53:57
The last five years have been warmer than the five before, which in turn were warmer than the five before that.

When average temperatures go up, that's called warming.
180

Dumfries,

25/06/2009 10:54:07
That's right Seanie, nitrogen is not a greenhouse gas but Slioch's reason for thinking it is not is wrong. Do you know why nitrogen is not a greenhouse gas? As to oceans, it would be surprising that oceans had not warmed over the past few decads given that the sun has just passed through a grand solar maximum. Solar output is declining and things are cooling. For pete's sake, why is this so hard to accept? Remember Edward de Bono's maxim: consider all factors. Scientists often become too fixated on one idea to the exclusion of all others. It is a fault of some highly intelligent people and a failing of science. Science is only one way of looking at the world. Remember many of the high ranking SS mass murderers had Doctorates, some even had two. Being clever does not make you right or moral necessarily.
181

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 25/06/2009 10:54:07
#149 sceptic

Seanie has dealt with your misunderstanding concerning 1998.

As for "increasing ice at the poles". The downward trend in NH sea ice extent is clearly visible here:

http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/current.anom.jpg

The southern hemisphere sea ice extent increase is thought to be associated with the climatic effects of the (human caused) ozone hole over Antarctica.

The "downward trend" in the MET office graph of smoothed annual global temperatures to which you link is an artifact of the smoothing process. The smoothed value for (for example) 2008 requires data from 1998 to 2118. Obviously data from 2009 to 2118 does not yet exist and therefore the (unsmoothed) value for 2008 is substituted for all of those years. It is that which causes the downturn. A similar downturn existed in the smoothed values in the early 1990s - that has now vanished because later year proved warmer than the early 1990s. The same will happen with the present apparent downturn if temperature continue to rise.

Such anomalies at the ends of smoothed series are inevitable. The only way of avoiding is not to provide the smoothed graph at all until all the data is available.


182

morris,

edinburgh 25/06/2009 10:54:21
176 Hot air ? You are well qualified on that score!

Any contribution is welcome and apart from anything else saving fuel must make some sense if for no other reason we pay less in our bill !
Even if global warming proves to be a completely wide of the mark (but maybe well intentioned)misconception,Id like to be around to ridicule it, when its apparent that it is so.If we follow your advice we wont even be afforded that possibly.

There is a difference between I know and I think I know.
The wisest man is the one who does NOT claim that he knows!
183

morris,

edinburgh 25/06/2009 10:56:56
183 At last somebody with some common sense!
184

,

25/06/2009 10:57:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
185

Yada,

25/06/2009 10:58:10
One more reason to emigrate from this increasingly fascist state. The eco-lunatics take over yet one more bit of the asylum.
Don't get me wrong. I recycle where it makes sense. I'm in favour of saving energy and husbanding the earth's resources.
But please let's do what is possible and what makes sense. The eco-luddites would have us back to a 17th century lifestyle (probably with a 17th century life expectancy to go with it) and if you think that cutting "carbon emissions", whatever that means, is possible without going back to a peasant lifestyle then you simply do not understand the science.
Oh, and seanie! Try using the 1971-2000 baseline instead and see where that gets you. Or the whole 20th century figure which will include the 1930s peak or better still go back 2000 years. Any fool can cherry-pick the dates he likes. We are currently in a cooling trend if you take absolute figures rather than f**k about with "anomalies" which can mean what you want them to mean.
And finally --- I don't give a stuff what the temps say. They are still within normal variation and NOBODY has yet provided me with a shred of proof that increased atmospheric CO2 causes global temperature increase. If you have it, please do us all the favour of producing it.
186

Dumfries,

25/06/2009 11:04:00
Plot the monthly HadCRUT3v data against time. You don't need much imagination to see a 30 year temp cycle up and down.
2005 to presnet down
1975 to 2005 approx up
1945 to 1975 down
and so on working back. There is a slight underlying increase in the pattern which could be due to increased solar activity. Lots of evidence for that from carbon-14 data to beryllium - 10 data. It's dead easy. Temps should decline for the next 25 years or so or even longer if the sun does not wake up. If they don't the global warming theory wins. If they do the global warming theory is bust. Is there any argument with that? By the way atmospheric carbon dioxide emissions will not go down in that time, not unless we kill off about 6 billion people.
187

seanie,

25/06/2009 11:05:17
It doesn't matter what baseline you pick. All the anomolies will just shift in relation to it.

The warmest complete decade in the instrumental record is 1990-1999. The 1930's don't even come close.

And, with only a few months to go, the decade we're in is easily going to become the hottest on record.
188

seanie,

25/06/2009 11:07:04
Anomolies are just absolute figures expressed against an average.

If you don't understand that simple copncept no wonder you're confused.
189

seanie,

25/06/2009 11:08:17
CO2 is a greenhouse gas. It's physical properties and role as such have been accepted science for over a century; since about 1860.

CO2 levels have risen signifcantly since the onset of industrialisation; from around 280ppm to around 385ppm. There is no scientific dispute on this.

That increase is due to human activity. We know this from the entirely uncontroversial fact that burning fossil fuels creates CO2, and the equally obvious fact that we've been burning a lot of fossil fuels since the onset of industrialisation.

The isotopic signature of CO2 in the atmosphere also confirms this.

That an increase in C02 should generally lead to an increase in temperature is not some wild and extravagant speculation. It's exactly what accepted scientific understanding tells us to expect.

It might be possible that there is some completely unknown and as yet to be discovered mechanism that is responsible for the warming trend. But that seems unlikely since we'd also have discover some hitherto completely unknown reason why the increase in CO2 isn't causing it.

Because basic physics tells us IT SHOULD BE.
190

Dumfries,

25/06/2009 11:12:14
Harbinger #123

I'll go better than that. For the Central England Temp record, the average summer temp (Jun Jul Aug) for the entire 18th century was 0.1 degree warmer than that for the entire 20th century. The CET has a 99% correlation with UK temepratures as a whole. How can this be with all these greenhouse gases pouring into the air. A whole century can hardly be cherry picking.
191

Yeah1,

25/06/2009 11:13:27
#115

"I still haven't had a satisfactory explanation as to how the Romans used to grow grapes in Britain, and how CO2 levels were much higher 120,000 years ago than they are now"

They weren't. 120,000 years ago CO2 concentration was around 280 ppm - it is now 360 ppm and rising rapidly.

The last time CO2 emissions rose considerably they did so over a period of about 20,000 years - going from 200 ppm to 280.

The current rise in CO2 emissions has occured in the last 200 years - going from 260 ppm to 360 ppm - a far more rapid rise than previously.
192

sceptic,

livingston 25/06/2009 11:17:11
186Slioch
"if temperature continue to rise."
Great, with 2008 the tenth warmest and 2009 heading to be rather similar, where did that assertion come from? Should that not be equally plausibly "if temperatures continue to fall"
"The southern hemisphere sea ice extent increase is thought to be associated with the climatic effects of the (human caused) ozone hole over Antarctica."
Wow, disastrous anthropogenically induced expansion of Antarctic Ice.
193

seanie,

25/06/2009 11:20:02
The 2008 was depressed by a strong La Nina that developed in late 2007. That's a temporary cooling event.

This year will probably be warmer than last year, and average temperature can be expected to rise.
194

Yeah1,

25/06/2009 11:20:25
Climate change argument:

For - thousands of scientists and experts with indisputable statistical facts about temperatures, CO2 emissions and ice melting

Against - Jeremy Clarkson: 'climate change is w**k'

Now who are you going to believe?
195

Dumfries,

25/06/2009 11:24:24
Seanie # 194

CO2 is indeed a greenhouse gas but have you never heard of absorption band saturation. The energy at which CO2 absorbs from the atmosphere is not limitless. At present concentrations additional CO2 can only absorb at the side bands of the main band. Hence any additional energy absorbed is very small. There are problems with the GW theory which have not been quantified and never can be because empiricism is not possible with the climate system. We would need a second identical planet. The warming model treats the earth as a radiative model. But the main heat ransfer process is convection, transferring heat from tropic to pole. Also no algorithm for cloud formation exists. If more CO2 were added we have no idea if this would mean more cloud or less, or what type, cooling type or warming type. Clouds are important because water vapour is the most abundant and most important greenhouse gas and its effect is not built into any computer model. The effect of water is "parametrised" ie an estimated additional warming is added for water. There are many more unknowns where the state of understanding is very low. The IPCC has made this quite explicit in its reports but people just gloss over these inconvenient facts.
196

Kenny A,

25/06/2009 11:26:18
Unobtainable target, is there a sliding scale also for people who live in the North as the climate is colder, windier and daylight in winter much shorter, also a more elderly population.

I agree with cutting emissions but this not a well thought policy.

As for the governor of California which is a major contributer to the greatest pollution generating country in the world. Perhaps he should look closer to home.
197

Yeah1,

25/06/2009 11:29:22

Climate change deniers remind me of those who believed the earth was flat thousands of years ago, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Infact, given their outdated views, climate change deniers probably do actually still believe the world is flat.
198

Hettie,

25/06/2009 11:34:11
I want Scotland to be warmer now :)

Anyway, I've just read in the BBC's science section that warm climate enhances biodiversity because it accelerates evolution.
199

seanie,

25/06/2009 11:37:49
There are uncertainites and unknowns concerning the climate. But the scientific consensus is overwhelming.

Anthropopgenic climate change is a real and pressing danger.
200

broadgait,

gullane 25/06/2009 11:38:01
sceanie
Why don't you do your bit for the environment by putting a short cut on your desktop to these cherry picked statistics rather than spend time searching files? Alternatively quote a link to one of the frequent earlier identical postings.
201

seanie,

25/06/2009 11:40:38
The American Physical Society;

http://www.aps.org/policy/statements/07_1.cfm

“The evidence is incontrovertible: Global warming is occurring. If no mitigating actions are taken, significant disruptions in the Earth’s physical and ecological systems, social systems, security and human health are likely to occur. We must reduce emissions of greenhouse gases beginning now.”
202

seanie,

25/06/2009 11:40:48
The Royal Society;

http://royalsociety.org/page.asp?id=6229

"Our scientific understanding of climate change is sufficiently sound to make us highly confident that greenhouse gas emissions are causing global warming. Science moves forward by challenge and debate and this will continue. However, none of the current criticisms of climate science, nor the alternative explanations of global warming are well enough founded to make not taking any action the wise choice. The science clearly points to the need for nations to take urgent steps to cut greenhouse gas emissions into the atmosphere, as much and as fast as possible, to reduce the more severe aspects of climate change. We must also prepare for the impacts of climate change, some of which are already inevitable."
203

seanie,

25/06/2009 11:41:08
A Joint Science Academies’ statement;

http://www.icsu-africa.org/Resource_centre/Globalresponseclimatechange.pdf

"The scientific understanding of climate change is now sufficiently clear to justify nations taking prompt action. It is vital that all nations identify cost effective steps that they can take now, to contribute to substantial and long-term reduction in net global greenhouse gas emissions."
204

seanie,

25/06/2009 11:41:25
The American Association for the Advancement of Science;

http://www.aaas.org/news/press_room/climate_change/mtg_200702/aaas_climate_statement.pdf

"The scientific evidence is clear: global climate change caused by human activities is occurring now, and it is a growing threat to society."
205

seanie,

25/06/2009 11:41:41
A statement from The Royal Meteorological Society;

http://www.rmets.org/news/detail.php?ID=332

"The Fourth Assessment Report (AR4) of the Inter Governmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) is unequivocal in its conclusion that climate change is happening and that humans are contributing significantly to these changes. The evidence, from not just one source but a number of different measurements, is now far greater and the tools we have to model climate change contain much more of our scientific knowledge within them. The world’s best climate scientists are telling us its time to do something about it."
206

seanie,

25/06/2009 11:42:19
The Geological Society;

http://www.geolsoc.org.uk/gsl/null/lang/en/page1022.html

"We therefore add our voices to those urging more serious attention, and action, from national and international bodies. The central problem is one of the massive transfer of carbon from beneath the ground into the atmosphere, caused by humanity’s enormous demands for energy, and current dependence on fossil fuels to supply by far the greatest part of this energy."

and...

"We urge serious, and immediate, consideration of these issues. The dangers posed by climate change are no longer merely possible and long-term. They are probable, imminent, and global in scope."
207

Climate change is real,

25/06/2009 11:47:34
Since I looked this morning I see that the deniers have been out in force. Several of their claims are not yet rebutted, so i will do so now.

"Al Gore lied" http://www.desmogblog.com/an-inconvenient-judgment-u-k-court-actually-endorsed-gores-film has this to say:-

"Read fairly, however, the judgment endorses the film for its general accuracy, exonerates school officials for their decision to show it in U.K. classrooms and approves of its continued distribution with a slightly amended "Guidance Note."

"Justice Michael Burton acknowledges in the early stages of his decision that Al Gore is "a talented politician and communicator," who uses science " to make a political statement and to support a political programme." But of the film, Justice Burton says, "It is substantially founded upon scientific research and fact."

"Justice Burton says, “I have no doubt that Dr. Stott, the Defendant’s expert, is right when he says that: ‘Al Gore’s presentation of the causes and likely effects of climate change in the film was broadly accurate.”

"Then he quotes Martin Chamberlain, the lawyer for the defendant (The Secretary of State for Education and Skills), who says, “The position is that the central scientific theme of Al Gore’s Film is now accepted by the overwhelming majority of the world’s scientific community." Justice Burton then adds that "For the purposes of this hearing, Mr. (Paul) Downes (lawyer for the plaintiff) was prepared to accept that the IPCC Fourth Assessment Report represented the present scientific consensus."

"So, everyone agrees that the science is solid and that Al Gore, while quotable and agenda-driven (he wants us to do something about climate change) sticks pretty close to the facts."

"Jim Hansen lied/has been proven wrong" is easily rebutted with http://www.grist.org/article/hansen-has-been-wrong-before/

Despite their arguments having been debunked the deniers keep on repeating them. That is interesting, but doesn't tell us much
208

seanie,

25/06/2009 11:47:44
That's not it at all. It's about managing a transition to a low/zero carbon society. That's not easy but it's achievable, and we'll have to do it anyway sooner or later. Fossil fuels are finite resources.
209

Scottish and Proud,

Glasgow 25/06/2009 11:49:22
Well the flat earth society nuclear power Staion mob are in full flight today.
Throw in the ones that will simply attack this legislation because it is an SNP government,and you get one of the most boring threads ever on the Scotsman
210

seanie,

25/06/2009 11:49:24
I post up statements from some of the most eminent scientific societies on the planet and you respond;

"Well if Al Gore and Tony Blair say so, then it must be right?"

You're a muppet.
211

seanie,

25/06/2009 11:56:45
The cycle of glaciation is driven by a number of factors but is thought to be principally driven by small eccentricities in orbit. The actual direct changes caused by this are relatively small, but are amplified by other feedbacks.

And CO2 is one of those feedbacks.
212

seanie,

25/06/2009 11:57:37
http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2006/12/22/231145/76

"The current understanding of those cycles is that changes in orbital parameters (the Milankovich and other cycles) caused greater amounts of summer sunlight to fall in the northern hemisphere. This is a small forcing, but it caused ice to retreat in the north, which changed the albedo. This change -- reducing the amount of white, reflective ice surface - led to further warmth, in a feedback effect. Some number of centuries after that process started, CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere began to rise, which amplified the warming trend even further as an additional feedback mechanism...

...So it is correct that CO2 did not trigger the warmings, but it definitely contributed to them -- and according to climate theory and model experiments, greenhouse gas forcing was the dominant factor in the magnitude of the ultimate change."
213

seanie,

25/06/2009 11:58:01
http://www.aip.org/history/climate/co2.htm

"It seemed that rises or falls in carbon dioxide levels had not initiated the glacial cycles.In fact most scientists had long since abandoned that hypothesis. In the 1960s, painstaking studies had shown that subtle shifts in our planet's orbit around the Sun (called "Milankovitch cycles") set the timing of ice ages. The amount of sunlight that fell in a given latitude and season varied predictably over millenia, altering how long snow ands sea ice lingered in the spring, which crucially affected how much sunlight the surface absorbed. The fact that carbon dioxide levels lagged behind the orbital effect should have been no surprise, since a change in the temperature would change the gas level. For one thing, warmer oceans would evaporate out more gas. For another, as Arctic tundra warmed up it would likewise emit CO2 and methane. The ice cores now showed, as theorists had predicted since the 19th century, that a powerful feedback cycle was amplifying the effect of the cyclical changes in sunlight. Even a small change in the gas level would bring further changes in the global heat balance, which would in turn alter the gas level, which... and so forth. This suggested how tiny shifts in the Earth’s orbit had set the timing of the enormous swings of glacial cycles.

Or, more ominously, how a change in the gas level initiated by humanity might be amplified through a temperature feedback loop. The ancient ice ages were the reverse of our current situation, where humanity was initiating the change by adding greenhouse gases. As the gas level rose, temperature would rise with a time lag — although only a few decades, not centuries, for the rates of change were now enormously faster than the orbital shifts that brought ice ages"
214

seanie,

25/06/2009 11:58:43
http://royalsociety.org/page.asp?tip=1&id=6231

Misleading argument 3: ’rises in CO2 occur after global warming, not before’

"It is true that the fluctuations in temperatures that caused the ice ages were initiated by changes in the Earth's orbit around the Sun which, in turn, drove changes in levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. This is backed up by data from ice cores which show that rises in temperature came first, and were then followed by rises in levels of carbon dioxide up to several hundred years later. The reasons for this, although not yet fully understood, are partly because the oceans emit carbon dioxide as they warm up and absorb it when they cool down and also because soil releases greenhouse gases as it warms up. These increased levels of
greenhouse gases in the atmosphere then further enhanced warming,
creating a positive feedback'.

In contrast to this natural process, we know that the recent steep increase in the level of carbon dioxide - some 30 per cent in the last 100 years - is not the result of natural factors. This is because, by chemical analysis, we can tell that the majority of this carbon dioxide has come from the burning of fossil fuels. And, as set out in 'misleading argument 1 ', carbon dioxide from human sources is almost certainly responsible for most of the warming over the last 50 years. There is much evidence that backs up this explanation and none that conflicts with it.

Warming caused by greenhouse gases from human sources could lead to the release of more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere by stimulating natural processes and creating a "positive feedback", as described above."
215

seanie,

25/06/2009 11:59:00
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/corporate/pressoffice/myths/3.html

"The bottom line is that temperature and CO2 concentrations are linked. In recent ice ages, natural changes in the climate, such as those due to orbit changes, led to cooling of the climate system. This caused a fall in CO2 concentrations which weakened the greenhouse effect and amplified the cooling. Now the link between temperature and CO2 is working in the opposite direction. Human-induced increases in CO2 are driving the greenhouse effect and amplifying the recent warming."
216

Climate change is real,

25/06/2009 12:02:37
I see that JoeMcT had no response to seanie's list of evidence, so instead ignored it and tried to divert attention with a comment about Al Gore and Tony Blair.

Some denier will claim that the scientific consensus indicates collusion. The rebuttal of this is at http://www.grist.org/article/consensus-is-collusion/

"Objection: More and more, climate models share all the same assumptions -- so of course they all agree! And every year, fewer scientists dare speak out against the findings of the IPCC, thanks to the pressure to conform.

"Answer: The growing confluence of model results and the increasingly similar physical representations of the climate system from model to model may well look like sharing code or tweaking 'til things look alike. But it is also perfectly consistent with better and better understanding of the underlying problem, an understanding that is shared via scientific journals and research. This understanding is coming fast as we gather more and more historical and current data, all of which provides more testing material for model refinement.

"Viewing the increasing agreement among climate models and climate scientists as collusion instead of consensus is a rather conspiratorial take on the normal course of scientific investigation. I suppose that fewer and fewer scientists disagreeing with the status quo is indeed consistent with some kind of widespread and insidious suppression of ideas, but you know, it is also consistent with having the right answer."

217

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 25/06/2009 12:04:46
#160 dumphries claims Slioch, "thinks nitrogen is not a greenhouse gas because it has strong bonds."

Really? Greenhouse gases require to absorb in the infra-red. In order to do that they must be able to undergo a change that changes the overall dipole of the molecule. That can be achieved with polyatomic molecule such as CO2 and H2O by vibrations involving stretching and bending, and also by rotations if the molecule has an permanent dipole like H2O. That is not possible with a diatomic molecule like nitrogen (N2), since it does not have a permanent dipole as the atoms at the end of its bond are identical.
218

sceptic,

livingston 25/06/2009 12:04:51
198 seanie,
"The 2008 was depressed by a strong La Nina that developed in late 2007. That's a temporary cooling event.This year will probably be warmer than last year, and average temperature can be expected to rise."
What changed 2007, from the warmest year ever, higher than 1998, forecast by the Met Office to being the ninth warmest year? Just the facts, rather than pathetic "global warmist cult" inspired conjecture and wishful thinking.
219

seanie,

25/06/2009 12:07:54
Trouble reading huh?

"a strong La Nina that developed in late 2007"

220

DAVID,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 12:19:17
What provisions does it have to force local bus companies to switch from the diesel dinosaurs they use today to cleaner, less-polluting more fuel efficient vehicles?

Oops, thought not. Forgot about the SNP's cosy relationship with Brian Souter.
221

Yeah1,

25/06/2009 12:19:51
It seems unbelievable that people can still deny climate change despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary and virtually every eminent scientific body supporting it with facts and statistics.

Why on earth do they chose to believe Jeremy Clarkson rather than thousands of qualified scientists and experts?

They no doubt still believe the earth is flat, that it was created 6,000 years ago by God and that we didn't evolve from apes too.
222

FLUB,

a rocky outcrop in eastern central Scotland 25/06/2009 12:28:53
Forget the science (or pseudo-science) - is no one worried about the SNP taking the power to criminalise the entire population, without the need to prove intent, based on what is a fairly nebulous concept. The slow sleepwalk to fascism continues.
223

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 25/06/2009 12:29:50
Totally impractical to cut CO2 emissions by 42% by 2020. Totally impractical to fine people for not improving the efficiency of their homes.

How on earth did that common sense piece of scepticism by Dr James Buckee creep in. At least he helps to bring some balance back into this heavily distorted subject.
224

seanie,

25/06/2009 12:34:33
A "common sense piece of scepticism by Dr James Buckee"?

Tissue of lies more like.
225

Geomac 1,

Scotland 25/06/2009 12:38:36
Don't you all realise that by sitting at you computers writing on this blog, you are all guilty - consequently, you are all fined the sum of £50.
Please make your cheque payable to the Geomac 1 Pension Fund at the RBS (A/C # 00298765498).
I note numerous quotes and web addresses posted above - it seems to me that there are as many for as against the Al Gore theory - so it can hardly be called a "settled argument". It begs the question as to why politicians in response to ecofacists are hell bent on beggaring(replacing the "e" with a "u" would be equally true)our country on such a flimsy and divisive basis.
226

Unimpressed one,

25/06/2009 12:40:18
Yeah1,

The so-called hockey stick graph was demolished entirely by a couple of economists who went over the figures and corrected the errors. Do you deny this or are you a flat-earther who can't stomach facts except when they emanate from green orifices?
227

seanie,

25/06/2009 12:43:59
Mann's 'Hockeystick' has been replicated numerous times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1000_Year_Temperature_Comparison.png
228

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 25/06/2009 12:44:15
#240 JoeMcT, BlairsFantasyIsland said, "after the coldest Winter in 30 years, and Snow in Scotland in June, who could possibly claim that the planet isn't getting warmer?"

Well, you certainly seem to live on a fantasy island - but it is one of your own making.

Last winter the global average temperature for Dec. + Jan. + Feb. was the ninth warmest since records began in the nineteenth century and warmer than the previous year, see:

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/tabledata/GLB.Ts+dSST.txt

As for "snow in June", that is normal in the Cairngorms where it appeared this time. Indeed, the workers at the ski centre there have a saying that summer hasn't started until the first snow of June.

If you must cherry-pick data at least try to get it right.
229

morris,

edinburgh 25/06/2009 12:44:50
236 Quite but even if we conceded that they are probably correct (which I seriously doubt)it still makes sense to urge caution until such time as the picture becomes clearer.There are thousands of professors world wide who say that Global Warming is a reality, and there are some who say it is not of course,but as long as a coin can land heads or tails its a complete raving nutter who says Ah It ll be alright on the night ! I cant help thinking these guys would be at home in a boat which converts into a submarine and be quite happy . How does that work then I hear somebody asking? Well you see that cork which is stuck into the hole just below the water line .........................................
230

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 25/06/2009 12:46:43
#242 Geomac 1

Is an "ecofacist" someone who only uses organically produced face cream?
231

Unimpressed one,

25/06/2009 12:47:06
#244 Seanie, Replicated many times but disproven only once. Says it all.
232

El Franko,

25/06/2009 12:48:41
Another faint flicker of hope from the States:

'Pelosi concedes 'not enough votes to pass global warming bill'?


See http://antigreen.blogspot.com/ (a must-daily-read)
233

aljok.23,

the world 25/06/2009 12:49:56
This can all only mean one thing. When Scotland becomes an independent country again the goverment will pass the long awaited law of the allowed legal growing of the hemp plant which of course would reduce the expense of most (if not all) things concerned with waste of the environment( and possibly improve the nations health). Current big businesses may have a small problem with this mind you.
234

seanie,

25/06/2009 12:51:13
http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar4/wg1/ar4-wg1-chapter6.pdf

Page 436;

“The TAR pointed to the ‘exceptional warmth of the late 20th century, relative to the past 1,000 years’. Subsequent evidence has strengthened this conclusion. It is very likely that average Northern Hemisphere temperatures during the second half of the 20th century were higher than for any other 50 year period in the last 500 years. It is also likely that this 50-year period was the warmest Northern Hemisphere period in the last 1.3 kyr, and that this warmth was more widespread than during any other 50- year period in the last 1.3 kyr.”

Scroll down to page 467 and you’ll see Figure 6.10 showing different temperature reconstructions overlaid. You’ll also find this.

“The uncertainty associated with present palaeoclimate estimates of NH mean temperatures is significant, especially for the period prior to 1600 when data are scarce (Mann et al., 1999; Briff a and Osborn, 2002; Cook et al., 2004a). However, Figure 6.10 shows that the warmest period prior to the 20th century very likely occurred between 950 and 1100, but temperatures were probably between 0.1°C and 0.2°C below the 1961 to 1990 mean and signifi cantly below the level shown by instrumental data after 1980.”
235

seanie,

25/06/2009 12:51:36
You could also look here…

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2008/09/progress-in-millennial-reconstructions/

…and here…

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/05/the-weirdest-millennium/

…for information. The latter discusses figure 6.10 from the IPCC report and points out;

“Without exception, the reconstructions show that Northern Hemisphere temperatures are now higher than at any time during the past 1,000 years (Figure 1), confirming and strengthening the conclusions drawn in the previous IPCC report of 2001.”

That’s unlikely to change. What really generates the ‘hockeystick’ is the rapid spike in temperature during the latter 20th century in the instrumental record. And the data supporting that is very robust.
236

seanie,

25/06/2009 12:52:03
Another site with several relevant links;

http://www.logicalscience.com/skeptic_arguments/fakeddata.html

It includes a link the the National Academy of Sciences Synthesis Report on Temperature Reconstrucions.

http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11676&page=3

It made some criticisms of the Mann report but affirmed it’s basic conclusion;

“The basic conclusion of Mann et al. (1998, 1999) was that the late 20th century warmth in the Northern Hemisphere was unprecedented during at least the last 1,000 years. This conclusion has subsequently been supported by an array of evidence that includes both additional large-scale surface temperature reconstructions and pronounced changes in a variety of local proxy indicators, such as melting on ice caps and the retreat of glaciers around the world, which in many cases appear to be unprecedented during at least the last 2,000 years.”
237

seanie,

25/06/2009 12:54:10
See that?

“The basic conclusion of Mann et al. (1998, 1999) was that the late 20th century warmth in the Northern Hemisphere was unprecedented during at least the last 1,000 years. This conclusion has subsequently been supported by an array of evidence..."

Mann was basically correct, and those that claimed he wasn't were wrong.
238

Geomac 1,

Kinross 25/06/2009 13:10:31
#244 Seannie
You state "Mann's 'Hockeystick' has been replicated numerous times." You appear to believe that if you repeat something often enough it must be right!! Hmmm - let me reflect on that last sentence - by your repeated blog contents it's not "appear to believe" it's more like "believe"!!!!!!!!!! Mann's hockey stick graph has been well and truly debunked by his fellow scientists and even by the UN IPCC
239

El Franko,

25/06/2009 13:12:04
And another from the Daily Mail yesterday:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1194589/Turkey-Twizzlers-GOOD-polar-bears-ARENT-dying-out.html

Based a new book with a jolly title:

'Global Warming And Other XXX' (censored since Scotsman filter doesn't like a naughty word there) by Feldman and Marks due out in July
240

El Franko,

25/06/2009 13:14:12
If there could be such a thing as Scientific Islamists, Mann would be down to be burnt at the stake for apostasy.
241

El Franko,

25/06/2009 13:17:21
And of course Hansen, and a selection from the Royal Society and the Mystic-Met Office, and ..oh, can't be bothered - see seanie's helpful recording of some of the worst sinners in his earlier posts.
242

seanie,

25/06/2009 13:18:11
I've already given you the link to the IPCC report showing numerous temperature reconstructions.

Including the original Mann study.

243

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 25/06/2009 13:20:39
241 Wee seanie

I think the guy is more qualified than you to comment.

Lies? I don't think so.
244

seanie,

25/06/2009 13:26:06
He said "the Thirties was the hottest recent decade."

That's not true. Either he's lying or he's incompetent.

And I don't see why a career in the oil industry makes him particularly well qualified to comment.
245

,

25/06/2009 13:48:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
246

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 25/06/2009 13:53:08
#261 seanie

Your last sentence is not relevant to this debate.

What matters is that he has a doctorate in astrophysics. That is a real science unlike the pseudo-science of climate change, which relies almost entirely on a flawed hypothesis.
247

seanie,

25/06/2009 13:57:40
A PHD in astrophysics on pulsars, followed by 30 yeasr in the oil industry doesn't make especially qualified to pass comment on climate change.

Especially when he can't get basic facts right.

He said "the Thirties was the hottest recent decade."

That's not true. Either he's lying or he's incompetent.
248

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 25/06/2009 14:07:41
Gosh. This is getting gripping.

Seanie and co. provide copious amounts of authoritative data from national science academies and institutions, the IPCC, the MET office, original peer-reviewed papers, and original data sources ... enough to keep the sceptics reading for weeks if only they could re... no that's too cruel, I take that back.

But then #256 El Franko responds with a mighty counter-punch that has all us warmists* cowering under our beds. He links to AN ARTICLE IN THE DAILY MAIL!

Arrh! it's too much! I give up! There's no resisting such an impeccable source.

warmists* or "bed-wetting moaning Minnies of the Apocalyptic Traffic-Light Tendency - those Greens too yellow to admit they’re really Reds", as Lord Christopher Monckton, Third Viscount Monckton of Brenchley, described us in his closing keynote address at the 2009 Heartland Conference.

And if you want to see the depths to which human beings can lower themselves when they have nailed their petard to a farrago of lies and misinformation, read Monckton's tirade here:

http://www.heartland.org/full/24881/Great_Is_Truth_and_Mighty_Above_All_Things.html

and whilst you are at it, try clicking on their "tobacco" link.
249

El Franko,

25/06/2009 14:09:02
The 30s are most certainly a contender for being the hottest decade in the 20th century. Right now it is between them or the 90s. Why the doubt? Well, the concept of a global temperature is poorly defined, and many land weather stations have been exposed as poorly sited (mainly due to the encroachment of new buildings and works of man) in ways which will damage their integrity.
250

El Franko,

25/06/2009 14:11:14
#265, careful Slioch, your leftie pettycoats are beginning to show!
251

El Franko,

25/06/2009 14:14:26
Thanks, though, for that last link. What a rousing address to end a conference with! Wish I'd been there.
252

Isonomia,

Lenzie 25/06/2009 14:15:33
Have you ever noticed the way that it is always the things men like that is to blame? Fast cars, aeroplanes, mega-tractors, etc.

Have you ever wondered why the eco-veggies never mention the slug in their cabbage ... if global population were to halve, we would halve CO2 emissions. It stands to reason. So why is it mega-boys-toys and not darling little girls-toys that get the blame?

It seems to me the problems stems from a few generations of women with an instinct to squeeze out a dozen babies whose natural instinct to nurture has been frustrated (by yet another evil invention of men contraceptives) who have transferred their desire to protect in cotton wall to baby earth.

Well I've got news for you girls. Brother earth is a brown, belching, farting old man.
253

seanie,

25/06/2009 14:16:17
Drivel.

According to the Hadcru data the 30's average 0.126 C below the 61-90 baseline.

The 90s averaged 0.241 C above.

So far this decade is averaging 0.411 C above.

You're just lying.
254

El Franko,

25/06/2009 14:17:02
Here's a more detailed link for those in search of temperature histories: http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p36.htm
255

Isonomia,

Lenzie 25/06/2009 14:20:20
Global temperatures this century have dropped at an average of -1.2C/century. It is a scientific fact and anyone denying it should be pitied.
256

Wynn,

GLASGOW 25/06/2009 14:20:51


Congratulations to Dr.James Buckee for a masterly exposee of the silly science on which the present climate hysteria is based....if for nothing else than showing that the way forward is not through political point scoring based on dodgy computer madels but to get out of the tent, and find the truth of the matter by counting the camel's teeth.




257

El Franko,

25/06/2009 14:20:55
seanie, you must learn to treat 'data' from warmists with a large grain of salt, as you should their computer models. These are people without scruples, and I really would prefer you to have nothing to do with them.
258

El Franko,

25/06/2009 14:27:22
Now here's shocker. Scientists have discovered that US postal charges are far more strongly correlated with global warming than CO2 is. The EPA is now expected to take control of postage, and this could lead to cheaper communications costs. Unusual to see a social benefit arising from the battle to save the planet from catastrophe. More details here: http://ilovecarbondioxide.com/2009/05/shock-global-temperatures-driven-by-us.html
259

Mrblack,

fife 25/06/2009 14:28:13
has anyone noticed the change in marketing of "climate change" it used to be called "global warming", now it is only refered to in mainstream media as "climate change" this is to cover there asses because they know the earth is cooling at the moment due to a reduction in sun activity.

I was once told by a climate change fascist that the "sun" has absolutely no effect on the surface temperature of the earth" lol

keep both sides covered that way you can always appear right when you start charging people for their CO2.

Can anyone say "Air Tax"

This time fascism will be wearing an ethnic hat instead of jackboots.

260

Isonomia,

Lenzie 25/06/2009 14:31:05
It all boils down to what was quite reasonable concern in 1998 at the end of a period of relatively steep rise in temperature (before we undestood tree proxies understate real climate variation).

Quite reasonably, the policy makers started taking action and put money into research bodies. Unfortunately, the kind of people attracted into these bodies were little more than news-age hippies with a vendetta against the consumerist society (with good reasons!)

The result is that we now have an inward looking, self-appraising crackpot area of "science" stuffed full of third rate people with a religious zealotry about global warming whose ethical and scientific integrity leaves the inquisition looking good, which have wriggled the way into key committees like Scotlands own Scottish Parliament Renewable Energy Group where they are able to whisper their poisonous hysteria into the ears of our gullible politicians.
261

DesertRatNM,

USA NM 25/06/2009 14:36:33
In the States Obama has come up with a way to solve our social Security deficit problem; when old people have reached a predetermined number of breaths – therefore their allocation of CO2 emissions – they will have to voluntarily or be rounded up if they try to flee and proceed to the Federal Euthanasia Chambers for disposal.

This will not only prevent global warming but will balance the budget by getting all us old people off Social Security.

Interesting sidelight – if you right-click on the supposed misspelling of Obama’s name in MS Word, the suggested correct spelling is Osama.
262

Isonomia,

Lenzie 25/06/2009 14:43:50
DesertRatNM.

It always amuses me that eco-fascist will in the same breath say we must recycle more and say we must cut down CO2 emissions.

Because recyling the euthanased brings their carbon back and adds to CO2 in the atmosphere. Much better as all environmentalists know, is to put all the plastics, food, and dead people - any carbon rubbish, into a massive pit and seal it up so that none of the carbon escapes.

But then again, the proven way to fight global warming is to create atmospheric pollutants (it is accepted that global temperatures increased because of reducing pollitants at the end of the 20th century).

So, if the eco-fascists really wanted to stop global warming, they would be urging us to ditch the catalytic converters, open up the coal grate and burn none-smokeless fule, get rid of the SO2 scratchers from power stations, and basically get as much pollutino as possible into the atmosphere to save us from the worst disaster in human history.

And the fact they are not, just proves that even the eco-fascists don't believe their own PR!
263

Mr. Borat Sagdiyev,

Kuzcek, Kazakhstan 25/06/2009 14:54:29
Climate change believers remind me of those who believed the earth was flat thousands of years ago, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Infact, given their outdated views, climate change believers probably do actually still believe the world is flat.
264

John Jacques,

25/06/2009 15:08:03
We're all going to go broke.
265

Electric Hermit,

25/06/2009 15:14:46
280
Mr. Borat Sagdiyev

Given that the climate is always changing, anyone who believes it isn't changing is totally delusional.

266

Isonomia,

Lenzie 25/06/2009 15:14:59
280 Mr Borat Sagdiyev.

I'm sorry to have to tell you that it is a myth invented sometime I think in the 18th century that people in the past believed the world was flat. I know this because I read a Roman text which clearly described a spherical world and I thought I had discovered something unknown, and then I read this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_mythology

"The Myth of the Flat Earth or Flat Earth mythology refers to the modern misconception that the prevailing cosmological view during the Middle Ages saw the Earth as flat, instead of spherical. During the early Middle Ages, many scholars maintained the spherical viewpoint first expressed by the Ancient Greeks....

According to Stephen Jay Gould, "there never was a period of “flat earth darkness” among scholars (regardless of how the public at large may have conceptualized our planet both then and now). Greek knowledge of sphericity never faded, and all major medieval scholars accepted the earth’s roundness as an established fact of cosmology."[2]

... it's normally the global warmers who make this claim that "deniers are flat earthers", but its a myth like global warming all the same!
267

Electric Hermit,

25/06/2009 15:18:23
278
DesertRatNM

"Interesting sidelight – if you right-click on the supposed misspelling of Obama’s name in MS Word, the suggested correct spelling is Osama."

The fact that you imagine this to be in some way significant suggests that, in your case at least, there may be some merit in your euthanasia idea.

268

Geomac 1,

Kinross 25/06/2009 15:20:51
#43 Slioch
You deign to criticise Dr Buckee but nothing on Dixon of WWF.
Could it be that one of these gentlemen's views co-incide with yours whilst the other doesn't? This, depite the one with whom you disagree has a scientific background whilts the other is a eco fascist windbag.
Your opinion is certainly not a rational one based on understanding and knowledge.
269

seanie,

25/06/2009 15:34:12
His "scientific background" is of precious little value when he can't get basic facts right.

The Thirties was not the hottest recent decade.

Either he's lying or he's incompetent.
270

seanie,

25/06/2009 15:48:50
And guess what...Dr Richard Dixon has a scientific background too.
271

Eve,

Scotland 25/06/2009 15:52:12
Whats this Ian Gray gets his photo take with giant bicycle wheel in the background!!!
272

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 25/06/2009 15:53:42
#285 Geomac 1

I criticised Buckee because he was stating things that were not true and were concerned with the science of global warming, and I gave the correct information about that to counter the misinformation he was providing. Frankly, my scientific background is a great deal more relevant to the issue of global warming than Buckee's.

Dixon of WWF gave an account of the political development in recent years that culminated in Wednesday's vote. What he says accords with my general recollection of those events, and he says nothing about the science of global warming. If you think there is something in what Dixon says which is untrue or misleading then say so.
273

Pavla,

Irvine 25/06/2009 15:56:25
No matter how commendable these actions are which in itself is a matter of disagreement which can be seen from the comments above I think unilateral reductions on this scale from a country the size of Scotland could be detrimental.In other articles we are told Scotland will depend on massive foreign inward investment and development to remodel our economy after this recession.I can't help but think multinationals would much rather invest where they will not be subject to more regulation than elsewhere in Europe and I think particularly of the Eastern European and Baltic countries where loose interpretation of climate change obligations already exists.
274

El Franko,

25/06/2009 16:00:08
There have been several reports that the 1930s were the hottest decade in the USA, all the more important since so many stations must have been over-estimating temperatures there in the past 30 years or more (See http://www.surfacestations.org/).

See http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1560674/Christopher-Bookers-notebook.html or http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/cold-hard-facts-take-the-heat-out-of-some-hot-claims/2007/08/17/1186857765035.html

But the temperature differences are somewhat trivial, and would not be detectable without instrumentation. Just like the projected benefits if all of the Kyoto Suicide Pact CO2 targets were met!

275

Eve,

Scotland 25/06/2009 16:03:57
"Tesco and Sainsbury's have been criticised for each using 14 separate bags to deliver 29 items – or putting just two products in every bag."

Depends on what the two items are if it's a lettuce and pack of Tomatoes then it's no good.

BUT if it's biggish box of soap powder and toilet roll then it possibly would fill the bag up.

Plush you wouldn't want them to chemicals purchases in with yer perishables. OR raw meat with other perishable products.

Though in Second thought if this is the delivery service, then they should be using cardboard boxes instead.

Though personally when I go to the supermarket I know take cloth bags, the 10 time better in quality. I would only use the plastic bags to keep any raw meats separate.
276

El Franko,

25/06/2009 16:04:51
#290, your key point is a good one. It is hard to see where Scotland can be competitive in industry on a scale large enough for our population. Damaging our industry and consumers with the extravagance of CO2 control will make this even harder.

Government-funded agitators like Dixon should be OK though for a bit yet. The backlash will surely come though as the truth about AGW alarmism spreads, as it is doing.

277

steve52,

Kinfauns 25/06/2009 16:13:36
Why is Mr Grey man pictured? He has been slagging off the SNP Governemnt since he got the poison chalice as leader and banging on about nuclear energy......one would think he is leading the pack.

Any how its all a load of utter tosh and just another way to screw more money out of joe six pack and his weans.
278

Geomac 1,

Kinross 25/06/2009 16:14:58
#290 Pavla
Your comments are spot on - but will the ecomentalists or politicians listen?
279

Geomac 1,

Kinross 25/06/2009 16:24:27
#289 Slioch
What is untrue about these 3 quotes from Buckee?

1. "These models attempt to linearise the chaotic weather system, and contain a line of code stating that an increase in atmospheric carbon dioxide leads to an increase in surface temperature. There is no scientific evidence of this." This is my main criticism of the GW/CC theory - it presupposes the answer (or an element of the answer)

2. "More energy has been expended on finding ways to infringe on human activity than has gone into understanding the science." Have you not experienced even a whiff of do gooders pontificating about this that and the other in the name of GW/CC? Jenny Haworth has been doing this regularly via her articles in the Scotsman - then there are the regularly published lists in all newspapers "How we can save the planet" Etc.

3. "The tone of the alarmists has grown more shrill as they recognise that the evidence is moving away from them." This has been more and more obvious as many scientists publish drivel blaming GW/CC for everything - terrified that their research grants will stop!!
280

Calum Crubag,

25/06/2009 16:31:11
Well done SNP. It's time someone had the guts to be this ambitious.
281

seanie,

25/06/2009 16:31:58
The GISS anomalies;

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/tabledata/GLB.Ts+dSST.txt

The anomalies averaged over decades.

1930-1939: - 0.28
1940-1949: + 0.44
1950-1959: - 0.20
1960-1969: - 0.12
1970-1979: + 0.01
1980-1989: + 0.18
1990-1999: + 0.32

And so far this decade?

2000-2008: + 0.46

So, according to the GISS record, every single decade since has been warmer than the 30s.
282

Isonomia,

Lenzie 25/06/2009 16:33:28
So said the lemmings as they jumped off the cliff - yes lets be ambitious, but what about creating a vibrant economy rather than tackling a problem that doesn't exist.
283

Isonomia,

Lenzie 25/06/2009 16:35:33
Hadcrut3 trend this century is -1.2C/century COOLING. COOLING. COOLING. COOLING. COOLING. COOLING. COOLING. COOLING. COOLING. COOLING. COOLING. COOLING. COOLING. COOLING. COOLING. COOLING. COOLING. COOLING. COOLING. COOLING. COOLING. COOLING. COOLING.

What goes up but doesn't come down.

Global warming!

Because when it does start cooling it becomes climate change.
284

seanie,

25/06/2009 16:37:27
Nope.

http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/hadcrut3gl.txt

The HADCRU anomalies averaged over five year periods.

1994-1998: + 0.296
1999-2003: + 0.382
2004-2008: + 0.416

So the most recent five year period is warmer than the previous five years, which itself is warmer than the period before that.

When average temperatures go up, that's called warming.
285

Isonomia,

Lenzie 25/06/2009 16:38:58
But the old ones are the best:

What did the actress say to the global warmer?

"It looked so promising"?
286

Geomac 1,

Scotland 25/06/2009 16:47:35
#299 Isonomia
I am in total agreement with that sentiment. The state of the Scottish economy seems to worsen by the day and must be addressed asap. But what are our tribunes worried about? CO2 levels in 40 years time!! And what do they come up with? A proposal that will damage our economy even more.
You couldn't make it up!!
287

Graecus,

Singapore 25/06/2009 16:57:15
Warming? Or not? The jury is out, but hot air is making Scotland unlivable. Where are Scottish individual freedoms under the SNP national socialist regime?
Fining families? Local gauleiters required to pin-point
offenders, a la Castro's nasty block system?
Climate Panic windbags, not plastic bags, are the real menace.
288

Isonomia,

Lenzie 25/06/2009 16:57:58
Geomac, back in 2000 I was an ardent supporter of these global warming nutters, but even then I could see that all they cared about was putting up more windmills and they couldn't care less how many Scottish workers they put out of a job and they didn't care how many OAPs couldn't afford their electricity because of the eco-fascist tax (£50 each) they put on our eletricity.

And do you know that Scottish MSPs even dicided that Scots would pay extra to ensure more renewable power was produced in Scotland than our fair quoto - renewables the English needed to make up their shortfall.

Have you ever wondered why the Scottish government got control over renewables?? It wasn't for our benefit, it was to allow Westminster controlled MSP to set a higher level of renewables in Scotland taking no account of our suplus due to Hydro.

No you couldn't make it up. We live in a country rich in renewable assets and do we harvest them and get money from the renewable energy poor English??

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.

We have stupid MSPs who put higher taxes on the Scots because we are endowed with renewable energy assets.

It's a bit like paying for oil to be extracted but getting none of the benefits - now who would ever think of that?
289

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 25/06/2009 17:31:32
Isonomia

ref. #300 You delude yourself by cherry-picking data and thinking that it is significant.

Read:

http://tamino.wordpress.com/2007/12/16/wiggles/

#296 Geomac 1 I am busy at present - I may come back later.
290

Jerry Springer,

25/06/2009 17:37:12
What is this I hear......................

Can it really be true?

Alex Salmond is bullying a library boss over a saltire on an office workers desk.

So............Gordon Brown leads economic summits with all the leaders of the worlds superpowers involved including Barack Obama, Nicolas Sarkozy and Angela Merkel.

You can draw your own comparison.
291

Geomac 1,

Scotland 25/06/2009 17:40:59
#307 Seanie

The suspense is killing - I just can't wait for your riposte!! I'm sure it will be original and not a repetition of your well worn and tired posts!??
292

Observer,,

Glasgow 25/06/2009 17:47:47
308 Erm the comparison and conclusion I would draw is that Gordon Brown has been in charge of the UK's finances since 1997, whereas Alex Salmond hasn't, therefore Brown is at another one of these crises summits since he's helped make such a mess of things.
293

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 17:48:07
202.Dumfries:

re saturation of the CO2 absorption bands:

this is quite a complex topic, but if you are really interested in understanding the science there is a good article on the subject here:

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/category/climate-science/greenhouse-gases/index.php?p=455
294

Pilrig,

Livingston 25/06/2009 17:52:19
308 and mandy will be sitting behind Gordon operatin the strings.

Meanwhile this climate bill; us ingrates who have the nerve to use modern appliances are aboot to be punished.

Patrick Harvie and his eco-fascist amigo Dixon now rule Scotland
295

Climate change is real,

25/06/2009 18:30:58
I see that, having lost the argument about the science, the deniers have moved on to attacking individuals. In this case Patrick Harvie and Richard Dixon. All very predictable, but the louder the deniers shout the more obvious it is that they have nothing useful to contribute to the discussion.

By the way I have spoken with both of them for long enough to know what makes them tick, so I know what to make of claims that they are empty-headed fascists. The claims are round objects.

296

seanie,

25/06/2009 18:41:14
I've already posted the data. That some people are too stupid to understand it isn't my fault.

The GISS anomalies averaged over decades.

1930-1939: - 0.28
1940-1949: + 0.44
1950-1959: - 0.20
1960-1969: - 0.12
1970-1979: + 0.01
1980-1989: + 0.18
1990-1999: + 0.32

And so far this decade?

2000-2008: + 0.46

So, according to the GISS record, every single decade since has been warmer than the 30s.
297

Andrew Service,

Scotland 25/06/2009 18:44:10
Sorry but I think this is a big furore over absolutely nothing. There is no factual evidence that the CO2 we emit alters climate in any way. The lunatic greens just want us all to return to cave man days and start smelling and acting like them. Well I DO NOT want to join you.

This is going to absolutely and without any shadow of a doubt cripple our economy and reduce us very quickly to third-world status. Then who will be laughing?

The main reasons this is being implemented are thus:

An excuse to introduce far-reaching and controversial legislation to impose even more fascist powers. Guilt trip:I mean if your not with us you are going to kill our childrens children with your evil polluting ways aren't you?

An excuse to impose much much higher taxes.

An excuse to get cars off the street. Greens hate cars and want rid of them. They don't mind fume-belching busses though - but lets not get into that.

An excuse to be seen to be doing something.

Fearmongering. Nothing sells controversial legislation like putting the willies up the collective minds.

Funnily enough this is not going to do anything for the environment, if anything it will make it worse, how? well:

There will be much more busses, means more soot pollution rather than clean and odourless CO2.

CO2 is a colourless, odourless gas but by concentrating all efforts on reducing this takes away efforts from reducing real pollution like chemicals and pollution into the environment like river pollution or ground contamination.

More and more production of energy saving light bulbs, which cost much more to produce, much more CO2 to manufacture and they are full of mercury! What happens when these little babies find their way into the environment? Do the greens support the potential leaking of mercury into our environment because sure as fate a lot of these bulbs will find their way into the environment intead of being disposed of safely, which, incidentally will [disposal] cost more too
298

Electric Hermit,

25/06/2009 19:17:14
290
Pavla

"I can't help but think multinationals would much rather invest where they will not be subject to more regulation than elsewhere in Europe..."

This is exactly what is wrong. Self-serving corporations have been allowed to dictate policy for far too long. Governments at all levels have been forced to compete on the basis of who would do least to curb the excesses of these corporations whilst providing them the biggest subsidy from the public purse.

It is a system which, self-evidently, has not served us well. But ideological capitalists insist that we must not even consider any alternatives.

299

Man-O-Field,

Aberdeen 25/06/2009 19:28:02
No. 32 Edward

The volumes of CO2 emitted by so called 'dirty' electricity generation in Scotland ie. by use of coal, gas etc equate to a possible increase in global temperature, over a period of around 100 years, of up to a few thousandths of one deg(C). This is without regard for future ' clean-up' possibilities. This is not, you may appreciate, in world terms or indeed any terms, 'earth shattering'!

Furthermore, the planned ridiculous onshore windfarms' scenario will seriously damage our unrivalled scenery and our environment, together with tourism worth 200,000 jobs and £4b to our economy. Oh, that many politicians and other blinkered souls would waken up to reality.
300

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

25/06/2009 19:38:15
#316 Andrew Service - " There is no factual evidence that the CO2 we emit alters climate in any way."

You would think the climate cops would have investigated that one...But if they have, they are keeping the evidence under their hats.

Two identical fishtanks.

Two thermometers

One generous skoosh of CO2 (soda-syphon/fire extinguisher),simulating 1000%+ increase in atmospheric CO2

Expose to sunlight and observe

Don't try this at home folks...you may be shocked at what you discover!
301

Geomac 1,

Scotland 25/06/2009 19:41:48
#313 CRIR - you claim that "I see that, having lost the argument about the science, the deniers have moved on to attacking individuals. In this case Patrick Harvie and Richard Dixon"
Your supporting argument for this statement would be appreciated. I do not consider that I have lost the argument - quite the contrary! The individuals you cite are hell bent on destroying the economy of our country for their unbelievably partisan and selfish purposes.
You really must note that the theory of GW/CC is based on a computer model which contains the assumption that average earth temperatures increase with increasing atmospheric CO2 levels. So, surprise, surprise, they conclude that CO2 is bad.
302

Geomac 1,

Scotland 25/06/2009 19:43:19
#319 - good one!!
303

Electric Hermit,

25/06/2009 19:50:47
308
Jerry Springer

"What is this I hear......................"

Just the voices in your pointy wee heid.

304

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

25/06/2009 19:52:26
If this CO2 stuff has any magical heating powers.

Don't you think someone would be trying to harness it?

How about injecting pure CO2 into the space between the glass in your double glazing...Limitless opertunities for Snake Oil salesmen there.

If the global warmers are telling the truth you would only need to increase the C02 level of your double glazing gas, to about 1000 parts per million to save 10% on your heating bills.
305

Brideun,

Culloden 25/06/2009 20:01:42
Hi All. Just returned from Alberta where they have had the coldest and longest winter for years. All agree there that Global Warming is a myth encouraged by Al Bore and his fellow nutcases.
306

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

25/06/2009 20:02:02
If I get made redundant anytime soon, I may try that...money for nothing!

Do you think I will get a Goverment Grant?
307

Number 6,

Germany. 25/06/2009 20:02:17
This is turning out to be some "Union". We will now have different air qualities in different parts of Britain.

Will Scotland's effort not be wasted if South Britain's pollutants waft North ?
308

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

25/06/2009 20:04:19
Anyone know Alan Sugars phone number...Or should I try Dragons Den?
309

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

25/06/2009 20:14:48
#324 Brideun,

I thought that colder winters was "proof" of Golobal warming.
310

Phil C,

25/06/2009 20:17:55
Quote 1

"Global temperatures this century have dropped at an average of -1.2C/century. It is a scientific fact and anyone denying it should be pitied."

Quote 2

"1930-1939: - 0.28
1940-1949: + 0.44
1950-1959: - 0.20
1960-1969: - 0.12
1970-1979: + 0.01
1980-1989: + 0.18
1990-1999: + 0.32

And so far this decade?

2000-2008: + 0.46

So, according to the GISS record, every single decade since has been warmer than the 30s."

WTF??
311

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

25/06/2009 20:22:35
#326 Number 6,

We could erect a line of Windmills at the Border and convert their generators into motors...and blow all that English Guff, right back at them.

No wonder Alex appointed me Minister for Science, eh?
312

El Franko,

25/06/2009 20:26:43
The Spanish have suffered a wrecking government for some time now (leftie of course), and they really pushed the boat out on alternative energy. What a mess they made! Here's a quote followed by a link for it:
'Spain’s torrential spending—no other nation has so aggressively supported production of electricity from renewable sources—on wind farms and other forms of alternative energy has indeed created jobs. But Calzada’s report concludes that they often are temporary and have received $752,000 to $800,000 each in subsidies—wind industry jobs cost even more, $1.4 million each. And each new job entails the loss of 2.2 other jobs that are either lost or not created in other industries because of the political allocation—sub-optimum in terms of economic efficiency—of capital. (European media regularly report “eco-corruption” leaving a “footprint of sleaze”—gaming the subsidy systems, profiteering from land sales for wind farms, etc.) Calzada says the creation of jobs in alternative energy has subtracted about 110,000 jobs elsewhere in Spain’s economy. '

http://www.icecap.us/ (25h June entry)

'footprint of sleaze' - I do like that! We can be sure as night follows day that if the greenie influence continues in Scotland, then our sleaze footprint will surge as our economy dives.
313

Phil C,

25/06/2009 20:27:02
There are very many daft selfish folk on here who can't see the benefits of helping people to focus on cutting waste and polution. We stupidly don't seem able to do it without encouragement. Global industry has to do it, or we might well be fecked anyway! Why can't we do our bit?

Arguments against the big stick are over-stated. Fines for this kind of non-conformism are seldom doled out. How many have been done for not picking up dog poo or for smoking indoors in public areas?
314

fred bloggs,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 20:33:49
For those masochists out there or anyone with an hour to waste this is a video of the lecture that James Buckee gave at the University of Aberdeen:

http://www.abdn.ac.uk/cops/events/energycontroversies/natural-causes-of-climate-change.php

He is a very inept speaker and touches his nose a lot (significant?).

He tells us that 'the atmosphere is composed of inert gases'! and that 'simple convection ensures that the earth's surface is at 14C'. No mention of the natural greenhouse effect at all! Also 'additional polar molecules facilitate cooling.'

All temperature variations are 'solely due to the sun and cosmic rays'. Because 'there are no sunspots at the moment the climate is cooling' and 'we're in an ice age now'.

(By the way, he is an oilman with Cairn Energy....)

He shows numerous slides of graphs without naming a source.
315

El Franko,

25/06/2009 20:35:14
#332, CO2 is not a pollutant, and alternative energy sources such as wind and solar increase waste and pollution.

316

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

25/06/2009 20:36:26
#329 Phil C

What are the +&- figures after the decades supposed to be telling us - 0.12??

317

El Franko,

25/06/2009 20:38:38
#333, we are in an ice age. Historically, it is quite unusual to have ice at the poles. When we do, it is an ice age. Currently we are between 'glaciations' - which are the popular idea of an ice age, with sheets of ice over Europe for example.

318

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

25/06/2009 20:40:01
#334 El Franko

It is so!

As my $250 million law suit against the Coca-Cola Company will undoubtedly prove.
319

Phil C,

25/06/2009 20:44:11
#335 The Col

They're the GISS figures silly! (I don't effing know. I just copied and pasted!).

I think it's the changes in average temperatures, showing that we're getting warmer or colder.
320

Phil C,

25/06/2009 20:45:28
#338.......My point is that some say cooler, some say warmer. I'm no expert, but why can't we just cut out waste and polution?
321

Man-O-Field,

Aberdeen 25/06/2009 20:52:22
McIntyre and McKitrick, and of course others, were critical of Mann ( and Jones)!!!

Climatologists please note.
322

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 25/06/2009 20:57:21
Seanie

Stick this in your pipe and smoke it:

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/Fig.D.txt

GISS U.S. Temperatures (deg C) in New Order
Year Old New
1934 1.23 1.25
1998 1.24 1.23
1921 1.12 1.15
2006 1.23 1.13
1931 1.08 1.08
1999 0.94 0.93
1953 0.91 0.90
1990 0.88 0.87
1938 0.85 0.86
1939 0.84 0.85

Here's the old leaderboard.
Year Old New
1998 1.24 1.23
1934 1.23 1.25
2006 1.23 1.13
1921 1.12 1.15
1931 1.08 1.08
1999 0.94 0.93
1953 0.91 0.90
2001 0.90 0.76
1990 0.88 0.87
1938 0.85 0.86
323

Phil C,

25/06/2009 21:03:01
#335 The Col

See, here's more figures (#341) which don't say much to me!
324

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 25/06/2009 21:05:58
Phil C at #329 etc.

I refer to the two quotes you give.

The first, ""Global temperatures this century have dropped at an average of -1.2C/century." is strictly correct though it is misleading and insignificant. It refers to the average global monthly temperature from Jan. 2001 to the present that show a least squares linear best fit of -0.012C/year. (Isonomia insists that "this century" began in January 2001). Information from such a short period have no value in understanding trends in global temperatures, but they are used by people like Isonomia who deludes himself and others into thinking they have significance. They do not. It is particularly ridiculous to translate the information given by this data into a temperature rise per century, as isonomia does.

The second quote, from GISS, by Seanie, shows the average five year global temperatures for much of the twentieth century. Such data is significant and useful in detecting trends in global temperatures, and in particular shows the lie of Buckee in claiming that the 1930 were the warmest decade of recent years.

In short, Seanies data is useful and informative. Isonomia's is useless and misleading.
325

El Franko,

25/06/2009 21:06:41
#333, I have watched nearly half of the video you kindly gave the link to. I must agree he is not an accomplished speaker. I hope to come back and see the rest some other time.

His description of the atmosphere as mostly inert gas was a bit of a muddle, as he tried to describe the theoretical adiabatic lapse rate for a dry atmosphere. The theory for that works with the idea of a classical gas as per the kinetic theory of the 19th - no chemical reactions for example, so 'inert'. His exposition was inept, but for those in the know, he was in right place.

Since he is an oil man, and I greatly admire the oil industry and those who work in it, I will give him the benefit of the doubt!

326

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 25/06/2009 21:08:24
343 see my 341

These are GISS figures too.
327

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

25/06/2009 21:08:32
#339 Phil C,

Sounds like a sensible policy to me.


I blame the Sun for heating the Planet myself.

And water vapour in the atmosphere (clouds) reduces the temperature.

Presumably if the planet heats up, more water will evaporate, creating more clouds to cool the place down again.

Storm in a teacup.

I don't think my unsubstantiated wild guesses on this topic are any less valid than those of the witchdoctors and carpetbaggers who pose as Scientists.
328

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

25/06/2009 21:11:09
#342 Phil C,

I think it is my old lottery numbers.
329

Phil C,

25/06/2009 21:14:42
#343 Slioch

Thank you. This makes sense!

Insomnia started his day poo-pooing any idea of tackling global warming/polution because it wasn't as important as his fat pay cheque. I'm just arguing that, whatever science says and whatever changes happen, it makes sense not to polute and waste energy.

The (for once) united Scottish government have got the principles right.

330

Phil C,

25/06/2009 21:15:36
#347

Shame they didn't win for you!
331

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 25/06/2009 21:16:56
Geomac 1 I won't have time to answer your question this evening. Meantime, why don't you tell us what you think it means.

#333 Fred Bloggs Thanks to the link to Buckee's talk. I'll have a look some time. It is the case that the level of public ignorance is such that (snake) oil salesmen like Buckee can flourish.

#341 connaughtboy For goodness sake. Can you not understand that the USA is not the whole Earth. The temperature record for the USA is not the temperature record for the Earth as a whole. Global warming issues are concerned with the latter. You simply demonstrate how little understanding you have and how easy it is for AGW deniers to lead you astray.

I have to go.

332

Alan B,

25/06/2009 21:24:50
For those that do not want to do anything about climate change look at it from another point of view.

Why use up all the earths oil so quickly. Something devolved over millions of yrs used in a century or 2.

Why throw so much money at mad despot middle east regimes and start wars fighting over their oil.

Why depend so much on russian gas

Surely it would be better to :

1)move away from petrol/desiel cars to firstly improve efficency, have hybrids, and then electric or maybe fueled hydrogen cars.
2)why not move away from russian gas as we have used the north sea supplies up so quickly and stupidly for electricity production. That means either or some combination of coal, renewables and nuclear. Nuclear also has the issue within 50yr of global supply issues.

As such making ourselves more efficent and increasing our renewables seems the best way. Off course with the uk having subsidised coal and then nuclear for so long we need to do something to encourage the diversification and technologies associated with wave and tidal etc.

333

Ian from Gala,

Galashiels 25/06/2009 21:32:29
So Bad Science still rules - whisper it if free speech is still permitted but there is no good evidence for man-made global warming, quite the opposite. All this anti global warming activity will be completely ineffective in its main purpose. We are in real danger from creating a self-perpetuating industry that is becoming economically dependent on this bad science. Some day the good science will get a fair hearing ..........
334

seanie,

25/06/2009 21:38:24
#341

From what you've posted, the leaderboard for US temperatues, in descending order is;

1934, 1998, 1921, 2006, 1931, 1999, 1953, 1990, 1938 and 1939.

If you go back to #146 you'll see I posted the following;

"After the correction the new rankings were;

1934, 1998, 1921, 2006, 1931, 1999, 1953, 1990, 1938 and 1939.

1934 and 1998 were still effectively tied; 1921 and 2006 changed places; 2001 dropped out and 1939 came in. And of course, since this only affected the US record it had a infinitesimal impact on the global record."

So in attempting to refute me you've posted information I've already posted, withhout realising the figues APPLY TO THE CONTIGUOUS UNITED STATES ONLY.

Do'h!
335

PointOf View,

Fed up Scotsman 25/06/2009 21:42:28
So Scotlands 5/6 million people will lead the world re climate change via a raft of new laws obviously aimed at punishing the offenders.

Hmmm, Scotland could close shop tomorrow and it would make absolutely no difference. On the other hand maybe China, America or/and Asia could, but hell no, lets suppress the Scots more. I mean we've had three hundred years of it so why stop now, swap the UK Union for the EU Union. To the street's i say, to the street's. Stop this Nazi Fascist totalitarianism now.
336

seanie,

25/06/2009 22:13:13
When you posted this link...

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/Fig.D.txt

...did you not look at the title?

"Contiguous 48 U.S. Surface Air Temperature Anomaly (C)"

Or did you look at it and not undertand what it meant?


337

Mallard,

Borders 25/06/2009 22:21:01
Good to see a sensible alternative viewpoint from Dr James Buckee instead of just the usual eco-fascist propaganda we are usually fed.

If the establishment want to persuade the sceptics to adopt loony proposals, they will have to start publishing honest undoctored,non-pauchled data. Lets have a start fron the Met Office by publishing the actual temperatures measured on site every day by thermometer at long established Royal Navy bases. This should be reasonably easy to achieve back to Beaufort's day. Then we can all make our own minds up without interference.
338

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 25/06/2009 22:27:13
350 slioch

The USA climate record is nevertheless important. Time and again the pro AGW figures do not stand up to scrutiny. Steve McIntyre is ample evidence of that.
339

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 25/06/2009 22:33:58
360 seanie

Here is your problem. The USA shows no upward trend as you have admitted.

So what exactly do you mean by average global temperature? Also, how do you measure it?

The whole concept is flawed and meaningless.
340

seanie,

25/06/2009 22:42:15
You certainly don't try to guage global temperatures by only looking at the contiguous United States or the English midlands.

You measure it by taking a statistical sample across the globe, that, whatever imperfections, is certainly sufficient to identify any TREND.
341

seanie,

25/06/2009 22:45:59
Maybe you don’t trust the surface temperature records at all. Maybe you’d prefer to rely on satllites;

http://www.yaleclimatemediaforum.org…ature-records/

“Four different groups produce temperature records that attempt to compile a single global mean surface temperature: NASA’s GISStemp, the Hadley Center’s HadCRU, Remote Sensing Systems’ RSS,and the University of Alabama, Huntsville’s UAH.”

“Despite differences in calculation criteria and a host of technical problems that have plagued the satellite-based records in the past, all four temperature records now show a remarkable degree of agreement. No single temperature record exhibits a significant or consistent warming bias relative to the others.”

“…all four temperature series align remarkably well when normalized on the same baseline period. GISS and HadCRU both show a warming trend of 0.16 degrees C per decade from 1979 to February 2008. RSS shows a warming trend of 0.18 per decade over the same period, while UAH shows a warming trend of 0.14.”
342

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 25/06/2009 22:46:04
364 Wrong. You should not average temperatures across the globe. Some regions may cool while others warm. Averaging is too blunt an instrument.
343

seanie,

25/06/2009 22:46:22
Maybe you’d like to see a visual representation of the four temperature series.

If you look here…

http://tamino.wordpress.com/2008/03/02/whats-up-with-that/

…you’ll find an interesting piece that is also rather revealing about the competence of one of the poster boys of denialist blogging.

It includes a graph with the records normalised on the same baseline;

http://tamino.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/4way.jpg
344

seanie,

25/06/2009 22:46:40
How about the four series displayed as twelve month moving averages?

http://cce.890m.com/temp-compare.jpg
345

seanie,

25/06/2009 22:46:53
The four principal temperature records in use match each other pretty well. The surface records HADCRU & GISS, going back to 1850 and 1880 respectively, are compiled differently vary on detail (such as which particular year is the warmest) but show similar warming trends. The Satellite records, UAH & RSS, only date from 1979 but correlate closely with the surface record. That four differing records, compiled by different methods, all correlate well is good evidence that the data is robust.
346

seanie,

25/06/2009 22:55:07
Huh?

Some regions may indeed cool and others warm. But if you have enough data points you can still derive a perfectly reasonable average, especially if trying to discern and TREND.

347

Isonomia,

Lenzie 25/06/2009 22:57:03
Slioch. Firstly, I didn't decide the century starts on January 1st 2001, its just a fact that there was no year zero, so the first century started in 1AD.

So the temperature trend of -1.2C/century is simply the current trend this century.

Yes I agree that only 8 years is hardly desireable, and I would be very happy if everyone waited another few decades so that they could really see the drop in temperature, but we are where we are.

However, when you look in the trend in the trend, you are dealing with very significant periods of several decades, and the trend in the trend is clearly downward.

But the basic fact remains, that there is no link between manmade CO2 and the upswing in the 20th century.

The temperature signal is entirely consistent with standard 1/f noise which is precisely what you would expect in a long term system like the global climate, and when the global warmers have been asked to put up the evidence to prove manmade global warming or shut up.

They have shut up!!

See "Global warming isn't real":

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25641961-29277,00.html
348

seanie,

25/06/2009 22:57:39
The science supporting AGW is overwhelming, from the basic physics that's been accepted science for over a century, to an array of observation and evidence.

Which is why every national and international scientific institution of any relevant standing affirms it.

When average temperatures continue to rise, as they will, at what point are the denialists going to give in to reality?
349

seanie,

25/06/2009 22:59:11
There's a big problem looming for you denialists.

1998 was exceptionally warm in comparison to the preceeding years due to an exceptionally strong El Nino. However the temperature of 1998 isn't so exceptional in comparison to the last few years. The continuing upwards trend in average temperature means that some years have been close to (and possibly hotter than) 1998 in the absence of a strong El Nino.

A strong La Nina developed in 2007 into 2008, resulting in 2008 being relatively cold in comparison to recent years, although still one of the warmest years on record.

The thing is, at some point within the next few years an El Nino event is pretty likely. And given that we're starting from a higher average even a moderate El Nino could decisively surpass the 1998 temperature.

At which point you'll have to abandon your 'global warming stopped in 1998' mantra and pick this new year as the point global warming stopped.

Up until the next peak.

And so on and so forth.

It'll take an increasingly bizarre denial of reality for you to ignore the ongoing upwards trend in average temperature.
350

Conan the Librarian™,

25/06/2009 23:06:07
373
Good Evening Seanie, you feel quite strongly about this then?;¬)
Not using up finite fuels until something else can replace them is common sense...
...But...
Are you going to tell that to a poor Chinese/Indian family that want a decent standard of living?
And how are you going to stop them?