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Trams bill up by £30m

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Published Date: 22 April 2008
TRANSPORT chiefs are facing a £30 million black hole in their efforts to extend Edinburgh's tram line.
Tram firm TIE is in the throes of tying up deals with German and Spanish firms to supply the trams, tracks and other infrastructure needed for the £498m project.

But record low exchange rates for the number of euros to the pound in recent months means they are set to be forced into the scheme's £96m "contingency" reserves to cover this.

The £30m loss will not affect building work on the Newhaven to Airport 1A route. But it is likely to impact on the 1b spur, from Roseburn to Granton, which is relying on the contingency funds being left over. It is understood the relatively smooth running of utility diversion work so far has meant the contingency fund was unscathed until the exchange rate started to falter.

A spokesman for TIE insisted plans for the spur line were still in place. He said: "The business case for Line 1b is robust and we remain committed to delivering this next component of Edinburgh's integrated public transport network."

Both tram and council chiefs are currently investigating ways of paying for line 1b, which was always expected to have some shortfall in funding.

Among the options being considered for any funding gap are selling off council assets, pressing for more developer contributions and borrowing from either public or private sources.

The contract to build the tram line had been put at around £300m, while the cost of building and maintaining the tram cars will be around £50m.

But the pound has fallen from nearly euro 1.50 (or 67p to the euro) last summer to its current level of euro 1.24 (or 80p to the euro). Sources close to the project confirmed the £30m shortfall, but the city's finance leader Gordon Mackenzie said he was surprised at this. He said: "The movement in exchange rates will always have a bearing, but TIE has taken steps to guard against this."

The 1b link was originally put on hold when the tram scheme was scaled back in 2006.

However, TIE has secured a fixed price of £87m to build the line – if it can commit to the project before next spring.

The Roseburn to Granton spur has been a controversial part of the proposed tram network, not least because it would run along the Roseburn Urban Wildlife Corridor. A German consortium involving Bilfinger Berger and Siemens is the preferred bidder for building the tram lines.

The group will be responsible for building more than 11 miles of track, 22 stops and a depot at Gogar. Spanish firm CAF had been chosen as the preferred bidder to build and maintain the city's trams. Both of these deals are expected to be tied up over the next week.


Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 22 April 2008 11:42 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Edinburgh transport plans
 
1

Sheep Worrier,

22/04/2008 10:26:57
Just the £30m?

Well it's a start. Still expect it to be £200m over budget.
2

Findlay Thompson,

22/04/2008 10:28:19
£30,000,000:00 added to original costings.

How much more posters?
3

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 22/04/2008 11:09:29
I'm a bit confused by this article as the final business case put the cost of Phase 1a (including contingency) at £498m. Phase 1b was stated as £87m, giving a total of £585m for the two.

Funding available was stated as £545m, giving a shortfall of £40m. These figures were available long before the credit crunch, so I am unclear what impact TIE is saying the weakening of the £ against the Euro is having now.

I am also concerned to read the the infrastructure and vehicle contracts have still not been signed as this was supposed to have taken place at the start of the year, although quite how it is possible to sign contracts when no final detailed design seems to be in place is beyond me. Is the price not to be fixed after all?
4

Liz,

Edinburgh 22/04/2008 11:19:05
I seem to remember that they decided against reopening of the suburban line that runs to the South of the City due to it costing something in the region of £30million to do and it was not seen as economically viable. Funny how this kind of overspend is going to be allowed without on this tram line!? They have not even started building the damned thing, I dread to think what the final cost is going to be.
5

Liz,

Edinburgh 22/04/2008 11:24:59
#4 that should read "without question"
6

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 22/04/2008 11:48:21
#1:

My money's on it coming in at just over a billion quid.
7

itsmeisntit,

digging a hole 22/04/2008 11:59:35
``The group will be responsible for building more than 11 miles of track, 22 stops``

Only 22 stops over 11 miles - Lrt has 22 stops in princes st alone .

As for the cost , well expect this to be a huge white elephant , keep up the good work lads!
8

eric,

Lothian 22/04/2008 12:10:34
Hilarious.
9

itsmeisntit,

sitting at the stop 22/04/2008 12:11:35
Lets build 22 stops

what gets me is why lrt /`Ra cooncil think people cant be bothered walking a few meters more ,why have so many stops over a very short distance.... lets cut down on bus stops & get the traffic moving .also saves buses spewing out that foul smoke as well as getting joe public fitter walking a few meters more & sort global warming as well ....
10

john z,

edinburgh 22/04/2008 12:12:45
What a surprise! The tram quango is running short of funds.

Anybody with an ounce of business sense would have been hedging their Euro funds to obviate against the risk of currency fluctuations.

The notion that the completion of one part of the tram route is ENTIRELY dependent upon the contingency fund being untouched just beggars belief.


Good people of Edinburgh, you better start saving, because the Scottish Government made it clear it would not bail you out, so citizens of Edinburgh will foot the bill.

An absolute friggin joke of gross management incompetence of the very highest order.
11

John Knox furr First Meenister,

High St, Embra 22/04/2008 12:18:40
Oh John z, calm doon man. Yer doin ma heid.
12

The Duck,

Edinburgh 22/04/2008 12:20:34
Well done #2, you know how many zero's make 30 million, however teacher will have to deduct marks for using a : bwtween pounds and pence and not a .

13

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 22/04/2008 12:21:19
So what ??
14

eDUCATIon,

22/04/2008 12:23:12
Surprise surprise.....
Well done to everyone at TIE, The Kooncil, Scottish Exec blah blah blah for another gross waste of public funds.

Run along now and grab yourself a free bowl of soup and a sandwich from the caf......you deserve it!
15

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 22/04/2008 12:25:22
People should remember Holyrood came in less than forecast .
16

john z,

edinburgh 22/04/2008 12:39:05
Is there no way the genuises at tram HQ can get ferrovial (that other well known spanish company) involved. I hear they do a good job of running Heathrow.

Just remember, as far as the Scottish Government go, the SNP were not in favour of the trams, but gave way due to immense pressure from Labour and the Lib Dems, who both thought it was a wonderful way to spend other people's money. The Scottish Government made it clear, they would NOT provide any further funding, if the project reaches an overspend.

Just think, Edinburgh, ye might end up with tram lines and nae trams!!
17

Iain Bhern,

22/04/2008 12:40:31
Scrap the whole project now, before it's too late!
18

Arfur,

22/04/2008 12:42:29
Thats another fine mess Labour has gotten us into.
19

C.,

22/04/2008 12:43:20
what a shock. not.

#22 i agree. the money could be so much better spent on other things.
20

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 22/04/2008 12:49:51
23 - why are exchange rates Labour's fault ?
21

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 22/04/2008 12:51:35
#8:

"Lrt has 22 stops in princes st alone."

In case you hadn't noticed, almost ALL the buses are routed through Princes Street and each stop is for a portion of them. The average bus stops about 3 times along Princes Street which is probably about right.
22

Black Five,

edinburgh 22/04/2008 12:54:14
Hear we go ,hear we go ,hear we go,Everyone but the loony Dawe and Co knew this was going to be well overbudget.They better not come cap in hand to the ratepayers or I fear there will be a lynch mob up at the City Chambers.
23

Niadh,

Edinburgh 22/04/2008 12:54:23
#20 My memory must be playing up.
I thought the original cost estimate for the Scottish Parliament was £40 million.
Didn't it eventually cost something in the region of £400 million ie 10 times the original cost???

The same thing is guaranteed to hapen here and if the council thinks I am paying towards something I will not be using they have another thing coming.
24

Phil MaGlass,

Holland 22/04/2008 12:56:27
Why not buy them from America then,the dollars well f@@@@d
25

NorT,

Edinburgh 22/04/2008 12:58:38
The Council and TIE are not authorised to sell council assets to pay for the tram. Any proceeds for sales should go to the council tax payer.
26

20something,

Edinburgh 22/04/2008 13:03:34
It's just a shame that all this money is going to companies outside Scotland. Keep complaining about the trams, it does make me smile. I still can't wait to use them! Bargain!
27

Declan,

Glasgow 22/04/2008 13:03:46
Oh here we go. That's the first hike!
28

Andrew Kent,

EDINBURGH 22/04/2008 13:06:01
Has anyone else seen 'The Simpsons Episode' - Marge vs the Monorail?

Ring any bells?
29

Arfur,

22/04/2008 13:09:10
#25 Voice of reason - exchange rates are not Labours fault. Insisting on a tram line that nobody wanted or needed however is Labours fault.
30

druidh,

edinburgh 22/04/2008 13:16:00
Line 1B - is that B for Billion??
31

Ron D,

Enybru 22/04/2008 13:17:50
I notice they've started back-filling on Shandwick Place over the top of dodgy old lead water mains; how easy will it be to dig it all up and repair the inevitable leaks once the trams are running?
32

20something,

Edinburgh 22/04/2008 13:20:42
35 - I also want trams. Anyone else?
33

scotsol,

Edinburgh 22/04/2008 13:22:03
TIE have always been quite clear that this spur line might be too expensive, and that is why they are spending the money on building the main line first. We'll get the spur if they can raise the money and not if they can't- can anyone explain what the hell the scandal is supposed to be here?
34

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

, Newington 22/04/2008 13:28:34
I like the fabulously litter-free grassy glade that the tram in the picture is travelling through. Of course it will be just like that...
35

SimonW,

Edinburgh 22/04/2008 13:32:20
I want them too, used them regularly in Dublin, Munich & Zurich.
36

AntiEdinburghWhingers,

22/04/2008 13:39:30
I want Trams too!
37

gorgeousgorgieboy,

Edinburgh 22/04/2008 13:40:20
Roseburn Urban Wildlife Corridor,

We must protest that the tram doesn't disturb this important area. The rats would get very upset.
38

gorgeousgorgieboy,

Edinburgh 22/04/2008 13:42:05
On a more serious matter - look carefully at the picture. No sign of the pedestrian/ dead body removal system on the front of the tram.
39

20something,

Edinburgh 22/04/2008 13:46:39
46 - If you're daft enough to set your deck chair up there then good riddance. Let's not protect the idiots too much - natural selection isn't necessarily a bad thing...
40

snotter,

22/04/2008 13:51:14
Yes #46 and why in the picture is the railbed green, is it supposed to be grass, or is it green chips, or more like another dodgy 'artists' impression - huh - missimpression more like.
41

New Town Resident,

22/04/2008 13:58:07
Our company avoids excahnge risk by sourcing locally whenever possible.

But then we are not public sector, and can avoid playing the EU game of procurement tenders which always favour the larger pan european companies.

Time to get some backbone into the public sector and say we favour local companies because of this exchange risk when tendering, so capitalising on the advantage of being outside th euro - same argument could be applied to that ferry contract last year taht should have gone to the Clyde.
42

Iain Bhern,

22/04/2008 14:10:15
#49, ever been to Prague? There's quite a lot of the tram lines run through grassed areas on the outskirts of that city.
43

,

22/04/2008 14:26:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
44

The Judge,

22/04/2008 14:26:50
Among the options being considered for any funding gap are selling off council assets, pressing for more developer contributions and borrowing from either public or private sources.

I predicted this the day the tramLINE was forced upon us by New Labour, and this is only the beginning. The idiots at the council will almost certainly have to go cap in hand to the banks and we'll be mortgaged to the hilt for the next 20 or 30 years.
45

Heretic_,

22/04/2008 14:52:02
yawn
46

David55,

London 22/04/2008 15:01:00
I like trams. I'm glad i'll actually be able to see something tangible for my taxes.
47

Euan,

Edinburgh 22/04/2008 15:09:00
I have always said that this monstrosity will end up gulping down at LEAST £1 Billion of valuable public money.

This report today is just one of many we are going to see over the next three years telling us how the tram project is over-running financially.

The money being squandered here is sickening, absolutely sickening.

When you think what other, far more worthwhile transport initiatives could have been created ALL OVER Scotland, the tram LINE is nothing but an absolute travesty.

This disgraceful, hair-brained project should be scrapped immediately.

48

PaulB,

edinburgh 22/04/2008 15:09:49
The extra £30 million is for the second phase which has not yet been approved! Read the story properly. The costs for the 1a section being built are fixed and not changing.

And what the heck is an Urban Wildlife Corridor? I think Tina Woolnaugh in one of her many committee / organisational roles dreamed this eupemism up, presumably to help protect rats and foxes (or to stop the trams). As far as I can remember it used to be a railway and was preserved specifically to allow a tram or other similar project in future. Which it is about to be.

The trams are coming, and I can't wait!
49

Euan,

Edinburgh 22/04/2008 15:09:54
#61

Very well said.
50

R Corbett,

tram free edinburgh 22/04/2008 15:13:21
HANDJOB SAUNA ORGANISE COULDN'T

rearrange the above words to make a well known phrase or saying
51

peteedinburgh,

Edinburgh 22/04/2008 15:15:59
Easy fix. Buy the tram cars in the UK and pay in pounds. The UK bidders have just become £30m more competitive.

Alternate buy them from the US. Their currency is down a bit too.

52

Foresight,

By the Water of Leith 22/04/2008 15:20:24

Any smart Finance Director would have hedged against movements in the €uro in order to protect against slippage in the original financial forecast.

Whilst on the slide of the £ against the € I am surprised that the smart contributors to these pages have not worked out that the UK government is allowing this to happen so that parity can be reached between the two currencies. The Kirkcaldy Kidologist will then pronounce that there is no good reason for not joining the €uro in an effort to enhance his European credentials.
53

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 22/04/2008 15:47:31
#63 The building of the track costs for the first phase have not changed but if you want trams on them then you will have to fork out an extra £30m.
#67 Hedging the foreign exchange element is standard practice on large contracts but TIE has never handled a large contract before and probably didn't know about it.
Maybe they believed that Gordon Brown's prudence was good enough insurance.
54

,

22/04/2008 16:05:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
55

Euan,

Edinburgh 22/04/2008 16:28:09
It's going to be a laugh to see how and where the instigators of this silly project think they are going to find the extra £trillions they will undoubtedly require to even attempt to get it finished.

The Arabs maybe?

The Russians?

Heck, they all have far too much common sense to 'invest' in something that doesn't give them any sort of a return...
56

Andrew,

22/04/2008 17:02:54
BUY BRITISH? I wish we still could! All "rail"-style manufacturing has been decimated due to a total governmental lack of investment/foresight in the 1970/80s (who was "she" again?) and now we're suffering by having to buy from overseas where the rail building industry is flourishing! Any rail re-openings are few and far between and now cost 'megga-bucks' hundreds of times more than any 'benefit/
saving' accrued from their hasty closures! Even the proposed re-opening the EXISTING Edinburgh Sub' stalls at every conceivable & totally UNNECESSARY overly-high hurdle!
57

gus1940,

Edinburgh 22/04/2008 17:28:10
Can anybody tell me who was the originator of the idea for a tram system?

Some b-----d must have stood up at a meeting and suggested it and it is high time he was identified and strung up from the nearest lamp post.
58

Deag,

Edinburgh 22/04/2008 18:17:31
The £30m increase is for the section that has not been given the go ahead yet.

The reason I believe is that the tram vehicles for line 1A were ordered at a fixed price in pounds, the vehicles for phase 1B were to be based upon a Euro amount converted to pounds at the time of ordering.

The £30m increase is therefore not for the current phase.
59

brettgallacher,

edinburgh 22/04/2008 18:19:12
a cool billion by the time this white elephant is finished and just like the parlyment and the dome never going to be used money making scam from start to finish
60

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 22/04/2008 18:33:56
Gorgie Tony
Sorry boy the SNP voted against the trams at Edinburgh Council but were defeated by the LibDems, Labour and Tories.
Guess what when it came to the Scottish Parliament the same thing happened !
Blame any body you want but not the SNP who have opposed the trams every step of the way.
61

Jingsitsme,

EDINBURGH 22/04/2008 18:38:45
|If it wasn't our money it would be hilarious. What tumshies she are.

Can we not supply some of the infrastruture here in Scotland?

For once the SNP are not to blame.

A system that is merely ones hobby horse not one that has been clearly thought out including consequences. How special needs people will be accomodated hell knows.
62

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 22/04/2008 18:40:31
#81 Deag
Can't find anything on the TIE website to confirm your statement. Maybe you can tell us when the contract was signed.
63

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 22/04/2008 18:53:24
#81 - You are wrong - it is for contracts for the current phase 1. Phase 2 is (allegedly) fixed price.

Interesting to see they say the rate has moved from 1.5 last year - it is a long time since the £ / Euro was at 1.5 - surely TIE has not been using incorrect figures to massage the business plan?

I also find it amusing that they say the business plan is robust - well if you think a business plan which ignores any financing cost, depreciation, ongoing asset replacement and the significant negative impact on existing services is robust then you live in la-la land (and work for TIE).
64

Euan,

Edinburgh 22/04/2008 19:41:18
It is nothing more than disgraceful that the persons who have allowed this project to go ahead completely fail to recognize what a shocking, money-gulping monstrosity they have created.

There should be sackings left, right and centre.

These people know who they are, and they should be hanging their heads in shame at the sheer WASTE of money and resources that the citizens of Edinburgh are witnessing on a daily basis.

A very sad state of affairs..

65

,

22/04/2008 19:58:26
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
66

lachlan,

22/04/2008 20:29:55
should have joined the euro when we had the chance
67

Plantagenet,

22/04/2008 22:24:03
Trams - say it backwards and you get - smart - no, that can't be right, there's nothing smart about wanting trams.
68

David55,

London 22/04/2008 22:36:28
#89, were you bitten by a tram as a boy?

The trams are a great idea. When they arrive hopefully the giant bus park on Princes Street will disappear. The many tourists will actually be able to get on public transport and have an idea where they are going, as there will be diagrams detailing the route. I voted for Labour at the last election. One of the reasons was that the SNP were against EARL and the trams. Thankfully the SNP got it 50% right in the end.
69

Just a tax payer,

EDINBURGH 22/04/2008 22:48:38
Well said #89#. Did you know that the man behind the congestion charges in Edinburgh is now working for TIE as consultant. He is Mr k. Rimer. A very good pay out from the Edinburgh council then consultant for TIE!!!!!
70

Plantagenet,

22/04/2008 22:54:53
94. I see that part of your argument for the Trams is that they will enable tourists to have an idea where they are going. That's fine if you want to go from one end of Princes Street to the other, or to visit Ocean Terminal but, how about if they want to get up to the castle, or down to the palace or to the Botanical Gardens? Oh, I know, they can get a bus, but then, don't we already have them so what the **** is the point of trams?
71

R Corbett,

TRAM FREE EDINBURGH 22/04/2008 23:26:05

re: deletion of my comment (#73)

since when was it a deletable offence to call Mario an anagram?
72

R Corbett,

TRAM FREE EDINBURGH 22/04/2008 23:29:32

ROBERT CORBETT MADE A ANAGRAM - SUMBDY CALLED THE WAAAAMBULANCE.

Ah well, it's been fun, but I'm not going to post any longer if these threads are moderated by the spoonerism police

Fank You and goodnight
73

R Corbett,

tram free edinburgh 22/04/2008 23:31:45

Trams are a POT OF LISH by the way, outdated and environmentally unsound.

The pro-trammers are all misguided WUCK FITS
74

Richard Lionheart,

22/04/2008 23:35:58
If TIE was a commercial organisation instead of a Council Quango heads would roll.

Why do tax payers have to put up with such incompetent people in charge of our services? There should be some accountability here. TIE jobs should be on the line. (If you’ll pardon the pun!)

Perhaps the Council could get funding from making the whole fiasco it into a TV reality show, and TIE employees could get fired by the voting public.

Maybe Sir Alan could be in charge?
75

Pilrig.,

Livingston 22/04/2008 23:44:25
74 - 100% in error. We have a minority government it was ootvoted on the subject of Embra trams, so why is the admin to blame. It's Embra's trams - Embra can pay for it WHEN it goes over budget.
Merry Xmas, turkeys !
76

Pilrig.,

Livingston 22/04/2008 23:46:26
79 - try actually reading the articles.
77

,

23/04/2008 00:41:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
78

paulr,

edinburgh 23/04/2008 08:33:48
And so it begins,
£30 million today,
it will be another £30 million next week
then maybe another £50 million because as you know prices fluctuate for materials and the world markets, then possibly just another £100 million and we promise this is the last increase.....
79

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 23/04/2008 09:56:02
The insanity of the decision to allow trams has ground edinburgh to a halt, and will continue to work against the flow of Edinburgh if completion occurs.

The expense of the blocking of flow it costing the city millions, add up all the extra diesel, delay, mistakes due to frustration and anger, business that will not invest, accidents, court action due to professional misconduct...... the list goes on.

If rails are the obssession of the moment, re-engage heavy haulage to the railways.
80

David Bond,

Wellington, New Zealand 24/04/2008 00:51:49
5 or 10 years from now, when the trams have proved their worth and brought undisputable benefits to the city, what will today's whining nay-sayers be saying then? I wonder if the cities of Newcastle, Nottingham, Manchester, Sheffield, Birmingham, Croydon etc all faced the same negativism from a bunch of their citizens while trying to get their tram systems built? Or is this just a Scottish problem?
I wish there had been trams when I lived in Edinburgh.
81

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 24/04/2008 01:16:52
#113 - Every single one of the schemes you mention is an economic failure. Apart from Newcastle - which does not even have trams!

That is why every new build tram system in England was scrapped.
82

David Bond,

Wellington, New Zealand 24/04/2008 10:27:49
#114 - OK, then how about these for cities with trams: Alicante, Amsterdam, Antwerp, Augsburg, Bad Cannstatt, Bad Schandau, Basel, Berlin, Bern, Bielefeld, Bilbao, Bochum – Gelsenkirchen, Bonn, Bordeaux, Branch, Brandenburg, Braunschweig, Bremen, Brussels, Buchholz, Chemnitz, Cottbus, Darmstadt, Dessau, Dortmund, Dresden, Duisburg, Dusseldorf, Erfurt, Essen, Ettlingen, Feuerbach, Frankfurt, Freiburg, Geneva, Gent, Gera, Görlitz, Gotha, Göttingen, Halberstadt, Hannover, Heidelburg, Ingolstadt, Karlsruhe, Kassel, Köln, Kopenick, Krefeld, Lausanne, Ludwigshafen, Lyon, Madrid, Magdeburg, Mainz, Mannheim, Marseille, Messina, Milan, Montpellier, Mülheim, Mulhouse, Munchen, Nantes, Napoli, Naumburg, Neuchâtel, Nurnberg, Orleans, Padova, Paris (suburbs), Plauen, Potsdam, Rome, Rostock, Rouen, Schwerin, Sóller, Strasbourg, Strausberg, Stuttgart, The Hague, Trieste, Turin, Ulm, Valenciennes, Vélez-Málaga, Vicinal, Wurzberg, Zurich, Zwickau.

Sorry if I've missed a few. That's an awful lot of economic failures. Are you sure you're right about that?
83

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 26/04/2008 16:31:27
115 - Trams maybe useful but £650m + whatever they are over budget can be used elsewhere.

The 'congestion' in Edinburgh is man made - ie the council are going out of their way to create congestion so they and their pals can do something about it. Bit like a protection racket - the problem and the solution are made by the same people. Trams will create even more congestion during the construction phase and then thereafter too - but that is their purpose so the council can have another go at their pet 'congestion tax'.

Trams are the biggest waste of public money I have ever seen and those who are responsible for this blatant jobs for the boys scheme should be ashamed of themselves.


 

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