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Call for outright ban on the sale of sex in city saunas

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Published Date: 03 November 2008
CAMPAIGNERS are pressing for another change in the law on prostitution, which would see sex for sale in the Capital's saunas outlawed, just a year after kerb-crawling was made illegal.
They want an outright ban on buying sex, which would apply not just to clients of street prostitutes but also those who visit saunas or private flats.

And they hope the change could be achieved through tabling an amendment to a bill already being considered by the Scottish Parliament.

A number of MSPs from different parties have indicated support for making the purchase of sex illegal. But independent Lothians MSP Margo MacDonald branded the move "futile" and said it could make the situation worse.

Evangelical group CARE has asked the Scottish Parliament's justice committee to add a clause to the Sexual Offences (Scotland) Bill, which it is currently scrutinising, to outlaw the purchase of sex.

And Labour backbencher Paul Martin said he would not rule out tabling an amendment.

He said: "Public perception is probably that this is something which is already illegal."

Fellow Labour MSP Marlyn Glen said she wanted to build cross-party support for making it illegal to buy sex. She said: "The message from New Zealand (where prostitution was decriminalised five years ago) is decriminalisation doesn't work because they have seen an increase in the number of women on the street."

SNP MSP Sandra White voiced her backing for a ban on prostitution and Scottish Tory deputy leader Murdo Fraser said the campaigners had made a good case.

"If someone were to bring that amendment forward we would want to have a discussion about it," he said.

Glasgow City Council is also pressing for a ban on the purchase of sex. Ann Hamilton, the council's lead officer on prostitution, said the new law on kerb-crawling was helping to combat street prostitution, but some women were continuing their trade elsewhere.

"Instead of standing on a street corner, they are getting phone calls or using flats," she said.

Lawrie Hutton, executive director of Edinburgh City Mission, said he felt it was self-evident that the buying of sex should be illegal.

CARE claims a law introduced in Sweden making it an offence to purchase sexual services, has seen a "dramatic drop" in the number of street prostitutes.

But Margo MacDonald said the Swedish example showed outlawing prostitution did not work.

She said: "If the aim is to eliminate prostitution, it has been proven in Sweden to fail. It simply drives prostitution underground.

"It makes it infinitely more dangerous for the women because of the way organised crime is moving in and taking over."

HOW THE LAW HAS CHANGED
UNTIL a year ago, it tended to be the prostitutes rather than their clients who fell foul of the law. Women were prosecuted for soliciting, but the only way the kerb-crawlers could be brought to book was to charge them with breach of the peace.

However, the law passed by the Scottish Parliament in October last year meant men who buy sex – or try to – could face prosecution. Under the Prostitution (Public Places) Scotland Act, anyone caught soliciting a prostitute for sex, as well as those "loitering for the same purpose", can be fined up to £1000.




Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 03 November 2008 11:18 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Edinburgh's sex industry
 
1

Sarcasm,

03/11/2008 12:31:37
Define purchase of sex, as there's a lot of potential crime happening in marriages otherwise.
2

Mallory,

Edinburgh 03/11/2008 12:38:13
How about a law banning the advertising of such establishments in the clasified columns of family newspapers?
3

Unimpressed one,

03/11/2008 12:45:22
How about our legislators getting a grip on reality and targeting some real problems instead of criminalising sex between consenting adults?
4

alex patersons English teacher,

03/11/2008 12:46:00
2.
see me after clas.
5

Jenny MacArthur,

03/11/2008 12:48:32
Yeah, great plan (not!). Impose prudery and man-hating wimmin's anti-sex obsession on the sane majority who'd prefer a common sense harm-reducing approach. What this would do would be to drive the poor women onto the streets, vastly increasing their vulnerability and causing more nuisance in residential areas. Take Glasgow for example, and the number of prostitutes murdered, under their nasty moralistic councillors' policies (mostly there driven by evil Christian anti-people hatemongering).

We need EVIDENCE-based policy. NOT laws driven by wildly biased "reports" from loud-mouthed feminist nutters together with Christian-hate moralism from the middle ages.
6

alex paterson,

edinburgh 03/11/2008 12:52:22
Why and what harm is being done,there is more wife beating goes on in legal partnerships.
7

Dorian,

Edinburgh 03/11/2008 12:56:39
Diamonds+Wife=Sex
8

Hector the Red,

03/11/2008 12:56:43
Legalise it....tax it....and concentrate on some real issues!
9

brettgallacher,

edinburgh 03/11/2008 13:00:30
what brain dead msp thought this one up, you can bring in as many laws against sex for sale as you like, but it will never stop until, like a lot of other countries we legalise it and take it out of the hands of criminals who force females into this trade, plus how many msp,s ,judges ,policeme,n een reporters use these places,and after printing photo of young lady with next to nowt on they couldnt have gave her more publicity if she had paid for it,then again maybe she did ,
10

Langenburger,

03/11/2008 13:01:08
Margo is calling it right and any ban on the activity would make things even worse but the industry should and could be regulated.
That might help protect the real victims who are the girls and make people trafficking more difficult and less profitable.
And well said #2 I too have never been able to understand how family newspapers like EEN happily carry the seedy ads.
11

AbandonAllHope,

03/11/2008 13:02:09
Legalise, get away, the state will not be a pimp. Ban it, tis degrading in general to society.
12

familymanwith2jobsandawifeworkingfulltime,

03/11/2008 13:05:18
I cant see what all the fuss is about here. Not all men are fortunate enough to be in sexual relationships and never will be.

Should sex between two consenting adults be banned, whether payment is made or not? If it were, then surely there would be an increase in rape, as the poor sods have to get it from somewhere.
13

NYC Hibee,

edinburgh 03/11/2008 13:22:00
Are these saunas not supposed to be creating a safe environment for the women?
I'm sure many of them would rather earn money in a 'proper' job but they are not there against their will. God knows what might happen to them if they were forced underground. At least we'd know who to blame!
14

Here we go again,

03/11/2008 13:26:22
Why is it nearly every other European country and city has 'legal' opportunities to buy sex, yet we're so prudish in the UK.

I suppose the clue is in the title of the group where the word 'evangelical' is used. Unelected religious lobbyists controlling ordinary people's lives once again... They are the ones who ought to be banned.
15

Xena - Warrior Princess,

03/11/2008 13:31:54
"Evangelical group CARE has asked the Scottish Parliament's justice committee to add a clause to the Sexual Offences (Scotland) Bill, which it is currently scrutinising, to outlaw the purchase of sex." I don't like the thought of any group thinking they have the "right" to force their views on anyone.
16

Decent,

03/11/2008 13:33:20
"Public perception is probably that this is something which is already illegal."

So Paul Martin thinks we are all stupid! It's him that wanted to be a polititian. They cause no harm to anyone so leave them alone.

Oh welcome back Mario. I've been losing the will to live here.
17

Ecto,

03/11/2008 13:34:59
~16 just because it is legal elsewhere is not an argument for it to be legal here, they eat horses in France but I cannae see the chippys serving up cuddy suppers! The real moral dilema for the cooncil is they are charging business rates for these premesis so are effectively benefiting from immoral earnings which I am sure is a criminal offence! If someone could convince me that in the absence of real work these women choose to undertake some sweaty, booze breathed bloke to be grinding away on them, they would rather do this then go for it, otherwise it is exploitation of a vunerable group of people. MMM and yes the evening news take thier cut in adverts for these places and for women to work in them!
18

Look on the Bright side,

03/11/2008 13:35:16
# 12 Stobo Castle? Or for a less expensive version that pays, get a job in Burger King or McDonalds kitchen.
19

Spock,

03/11/2008 13:38:51
How does CARE define 'sex for sale'?

In the last decade with young females in particular becoming more materialistic, not going out with men unless they own a flat, car, have loads of money and a good job, one could say that in some cases marriage is becoming a form of prostitution. Sad but true.
20

Decent,

03/11/2008 13:47:33
21 - Ay - In your head.
21

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

03/11/2008 13:47:55
If it's behind closed doors and between consenting adults then everyone else should mind their own damned business.
22

Zoobee,

Edinburgh 03/11/2008 14:11:37
what happened to personal enterprise - these women have something to sell that some men want to buy. It's a private transaction going on behind closed door that isn't hurting anyone.

If the fear is that some women are being forced into this then police these businesses - shutting them down will only make the matter worse.
23

Cynicaltalk,

03/11/2008 14:11:40
Yeah, this'll work.

We have outlawed drugs, violence, theft etc, and its solved the problem hasn't it?

Oh, it hasn't.........
24

James (1),

03/11/2008 14:18:49
So decriminalising it in New Zealand does not work. Amsterdam is also known for allowing it and still has pimp and drug related problems there.
But let's just ignore this and go with a gut feeling that it should be ok if we make it legal here. That is going to solve all the problems.
What about the two examples which show it does not work? Jenny said we needed evidence, surely that is it? Well, we now need to ignore those two examples! Just keep looking for evidence that agrees with her view. That is the kind of evidence we want? What about those prostitutes that cause grief to residents? Ignore this fact as well! The evidence HAS to support the theory or we will just ignore it will be the approach.

These women are NOT working they are sponging off us by claiming benefit. They also get paid for having sex. Their contribution to society is nil.
They apparently do not want to be selling their bodies but certain people want to take the view that they do, its their choice so lets make it legal.
I am sure all real "trades" would like to claim benefits, pay zero tax and still charge for their services. In fact why are they not allowed to?
Could it be that they cannot because we need their money to pay these prostitutes and other sponging non workers benefit money.
If anybody is being exploited it is the tax payer.
25

Statsman,

Edinburgh 03/11/2008 14:25:37
Fundie Christians should leave sane people alone.
26

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 03/11/2008 14:57:29
If there's a willing seller and a willing buyer, what's the problem?
27

Decent,

03/11/2008 14:58:42
26 - What residents do they cause grief to? Oh that will be the ones that bought the posh flats at the shore - KNOWING that prostitutes had operated ther for hundreds of years - and then decided they didn't like them hanging around! That's like buying a house on the flight path them asking them to move the airport.

And tell their punters their contribution to society is nil! Thing is they would't be needed if we didn't have so many male p*rverts.
28

Gabriel,

Edinburgh 03/11/2008 14:59:02
The sale of sex has been carried out by the oldest profession since Adam was a boy and it is ludicrous to try and ban it. I believe prostitution should be legalised as it is on the Continent, with government health checks. What is pathetic is that these so called Edinburgh "Saunas" are simply fronts for brothels. It is not so long since showers were introduced in Scotland, let alone saunas.
29

FC Barcelona,

03/11/2008 15:24:33
my sis in law married a really really fat and unattractive guy, she is very pretty btw, but this fat ugly bloke has wads of cash, is my sis in law doing anything differently from the sauna women ???
30

Pilton D,

North Edinburgh 03/11/2008 15:38:48
Ban this, ban that, make it unlawful, jail them, hang them, flog them!

Getting tired of this nonsense. Sort the problems of poverty out first and maybe, just maybe, there won't be so many young women forced into prostitution!

Also sort the country's diet out and there won't be so many fat, ugly people around, forcing many to pay for a decent body to look at for once!

The only thing that should be banned is christians, in fact all religious groups - brain dead, reactionary, followers of one book of stories or the other. Just once, think for yourself and deal with reality you sad bunch.
31

10inchsoft,

03/11/2008 15:39:28
i buy my wife a present i get a bj i dont buy my my wife a present i getmoaned at whats wrong here
32

Decent,

03/11/2008 15:54:28
Pilton D - What poverty? Oh you must be talking about India or Egypt or somewhere there is poverty - certainly not this country.
33

James (1),

03/11/2008 15:55:40
#29 Yes I suppose using your logic we should just be clubbing a woman and dragging her off by her hair to our caves? Your right women were regarded as 2nd class for centuries so why are we treating them as equals now? Why are we living in houses now anyway when we had perfectly serviceable caves?
Your analogy about airports is nonsense. Airports are LEGAL. What prostitutes do is ILLEGAL. That is why law abiding tax payers need to be protected from these parasites. I think that is the right word? They leech of the tax payer and serve no purpose except their own.
34

The Ayrshire Bard,

03/11/2008 16:06:05
It's now over 30 years since I was on a business trip to Amsterdam. Our host told us then the famous red light district was only used by tourists as sex was so easily available without having to pay for it.
35

SPG,

edinburgh 03/11/2008 16:06:31
Any numbnut knows prohibition solves everything.
36

Decent,

03/11/2008 16:11:43
35 - Sorry I don't get the first bit of your rant at all or how it pertained to any of my comments? Secondly at least they do work and I have nothing but admiration for them as they service the ugly and the lonely.

And I think you will find they are still legal - that is what the whole article is about. Why do you hate them so much? Bad experience eh.
37

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

03/11/2008 16:29:08
26 James: taking points in your rant in turn:

It's irrelevant what happens in New Zealand or anywhere else. A guiding principle of our society is that adults should have the liberty to go about their business provided they're not harming anyone else. By definition, two adults behind closed doors coming to an agreement of cash in trade for sexual services is between those adults and none of our damned business.

The prostitutes who cause most grief to residents are those who ply their trade as street vendors. The saunas are thus doing residents a service by providing for sale indoors and in private.

If the women are taking benefits while working, then by all means prosecute them for fraud. Those who aren't should be left in peace.

As for their contribution to society, it's clearly quite substantial if we measure it by the amount of money paid to them. This indicates that their patrons value their services very much.
38

James (1),

03/11/2008 16:41:52
#38 Sorry I thought you wanted things to remain the same. That is why I was thinking you would have been unhappy that we have moved on from the cave man way of life.
Residents have the right to expect prostitutes not to be in their area. Your view would appear to be they have a right because they have done it for hundreds of years. Times change, we are no longer cave men and we are no longer tolerant of prostitutes.
With regard to work? Your definition is obviously different from mine. I work and from doing that I pay tax which goes towards providing services for all. These women provide nothing. They take and that is all they do. I have no bad experiences and given your concern about this, makes me wonder if your are frightened your job may be made illegal or you get moved on? Eh!
39

James (1),

03/11/2008 16:53:33
#40 Yes freedom is a great thing and we should all have it. So drug dealers in your world can do what they want? Drug users can also do what they want as long as they can afford it. Drink drivers can do so as long as they do not crash. Once they crash they become bad people but if they can drive home they are to be congratulated?
If something is found to work we are to ignore it? If it is found not to work we are to ignore it? Which is it in your world?
Regarding your remark about contributions to society. Can you tell me where you get your figures from? A figment of your imagination? These women according to you are well paid. So why do some try to portray them as victims? What percentage of tax will they pay from this well paid job? My guess (if we are using imagination) will be zero.
40

AnnemarieG,

03/11/2008 16:57:45
I agree with what most of you have said here. If it's consensual, a willing seller and a willing buyer, fine. But one thing that has not been mentioned is the foreign women forced into this life. Women who come here expecting menial jobs such as cleaning to send money home to their families. Instead they are forced into prostitution. That is what the evangelical nutters and the polis should look into!
41

Paddi,

03/11/2008 18:06:43
#33, i've got yout wife a wee pressie, ask her to be down by Cermaic tile wharehouse on Salamader Street at 11.30pm. what does she look like??? actually doesnt matter
42

Decent,

03/11/2008 18:54:54
41- You callin me a wh@re? Cheeky bstard just as well you hidin behind your computer you fluckin d@ckhead. And speak for yourself - some of us are tolerant of all types of society and don't want them wiped out just because our posh friends are coming to dinner.
43

sligohibee,

03/11/2008 19:01:56
No.12.
Pssssst Mario try Carols on Easter road.
44

Boy Wonder,

03/11/2008 19:18:51
I find politicians moralising on Prostitution thoroughly distasteful. They're the ones who tend to get caught using them most ... and of course, they prostitute themselves on a daily basis.

Outlawing it outright is taking 10 steps backwards. It needs to be legalised, regulated and given a safe house to protect the women AND young men who find themslves in the unenviable position of having to sell their bodies for survival in our increasingly polarised society!
45

Crivvens,

03/11/2008 19:20:40
Sounds like Decent may have a part time job on Salamander St, beats working in ASDA is suppose
46

Sallyann,

03/11/2008 19:24:27
With issues like "sex for sale" people are always going to have wide and varied opinions and would like them to be heard. Instead of rushing in and making fast decisions about who is right and who is wrong.
Topics such as this should be reviewed with an unbiased mind. Decisions made on facts rather than thoughts.
Women who chose to work in this profession have the ability to earn a lot of money and as this is not reconised as income and is not taxed these women can still claim for benefits for housing and living expenses. If this income was taxed and controlled then not only would it become less of an attraction but the trafficing of women brought in from other countries be reduced as women would need an national insurance number and to prove their eligibility to work in Britianbefore they could. Women would also have rights against shady employers who do not treat these women fairly.
My whole point being if you can only earn the same for prostitution as you would for cleaning toilets and other such things then it's a no brainer that women would chose to clean toilets ect than sale their bodies to men.
With less judgement and more control then this type of living would be no better to women than theusual 9-5 job.
47

Decent,

03/11/2008 19:26:16
Full time actually and I had to move to a sauna because the posh bstards like our James here got up a petition so their area wouldn't look bad when their posher friends from Colinton visited.
48

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

03/11/2008 19:58:13
#42: Yes, freedom is a great thing. If consenting adults want to trade and take drugs then I've no problem with that so long as they do it in private and don't annoy the rest of us.

It's a no on the drink-driving though. That's reckless behaviour likely to harm others.

I agree that we should value something that works and I think freedom does work.

You ask for numbers concerning their contribution to society. I believe that the value of something is what a willing buyer will pay for it. Thus the services of these people are worth what is paid for them in aggregate.

The Home Office estimates that there are 80,000 prostitutes working in the UK. If we assume 30 Pounds per transaction and an average of six customers per day then that's an annual turnover of 3.6 billion Pounds if they're working a 5 day week.

Most likely that estimate is too low, but I think we've established that they do make quite a contribution to society.

49

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

03/11/2008 19:59:27
#43 James:

Sorry, I missed your point concerning tax. Yes, it would be very sensible if we legalised the business so that it could be properly taxed.
50

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

03/11/2008 20:01:33
43 AnneMarie: yes, I can imagine few things quite so reprehensible as someone being coerced into the sex business. One has to wonder: if brothels were legal businesses, wouldn't it be much easier to police, catch and punish the evil people who perpetrate this?
51

James (1),

03/11/2008 20:19:49
#45 Very touchy! You are not ashamed of your job are you?
You thought I might have had a bad experience and that was why I was against prostitution. You were wrong but it was a reasonable suggestion.

I thought you might a prostitute because you are trying justify and make a case for these spongers. This was a reasonable assumption on my part I thought?

Now I find it strange you get all indignant at being called a prostitute. I thought you were of the belief they are doing nothing wrong.
Oh, I get it, you have double standards.
52

James (1),

03/11/2008 20:37:23
#51 whilst acknowledging your views about consenting adults I do not agree with them.
The drink drive still falls under this behaviour you advocate. If is does not do any harm was what you said? Drugs do not do any harm immediately, just as drink driving does not do any harm UNTIL the crash. Drugs do not do any harm UNTIL you cannot fund them and need to steal or sell your body to fund your habit. So freedom cannot be given to all.
Amsterdam is put forward as the city that has legalised prostitution. Their own police force states that drugs and pimps are rife. So putting women into a legal knocking shop does not stop pimps operating.
Prostitutes make as much contribution to society as shoplifters do. They are providing a service at the expense of others. Almost all prostitutes will claim to be unemployed and as such be getting benefits paid by taxpayers. I think I am safe saying this?
They have got themselves into this situation and I will not for one moment feel sorry for them as there is ample help available to get them off it. The choose not to and I choose not to care.
53

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

03/11/2008 21:13:49
James (55):

Drik-driving is reckless behaviour on a par with firing off gunshots in public - it's the clear risk to other people which is the offence. That's plainly not there if adults have sex, or take drugs, in private.

As for drugs doing harm: this is an issue only if the harm is to an unconsenting other. Free adults are able to risk harm in their hobbies as they choose. Taking drugs is not much different from mountain-climbing or rugby in that regard. If an adult finds the reward worth the risk, who are we to deny them?

Prostitutes provide a service people are willing to pay for, just like legitimate massages or dry-cleaning. It's a service clearly valued by their many customers.
54

grantcat,

Old Town 03/11/2008 21:18:09
Check out Melissa Farley's research http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/

Men buying consent of a woman for sexual gratification should not be accepted in a tolerant society. There needs to be a position surely where we want the elimination of prostitution where the demand for bought sex is done away with as there is a much healthier attitude to sex.

Men don't need to buy sex they choose to, prostitutes exist because there is a demand. Don't kid yourself on that it is lonely or disabled men - it is all types and kinds of men that choose to buy sex.

From some of the posts on this site about wives and marriage - there are very negative attitudes about women, such attitudes are the attitudes that support that women are there to be bought and sold and to do what men want them to do and not what women want to do or choose to do. It's blatant misogyny and sexism.





55

Decent,

03/11/2008 22:01:31
54 -I never at any time said I thought they were doing nothing wrong. I am simply supporting their right to work where they always have - at the docks.
I still think you've had a bad experience - perhaps one of your regulars called you by your real name in front of one of your dinner guests.
As has been said before they wouldn't be needed if it weren't for your sexes p*rverted desires.
56

GmL,

Edinburgh 03/11/2008 22:19:12
No.57. If you are aware of Melissa Farley's research, you will also be aware of the reaction to it from others in the same field. It was discredited by almost all academics as being badly researched and fundamentally flawed.
57

GmL,

Edinburgh 03/11/2008 22:23:19
.... and the critique is here.

http://myweb.dal.ca/mgoodyea/Documents/Client%20studies/FarleyCritique-2.doc
58

Julian.,

edinburgh 03/11/2008 22:27:40
James(1)

As usual your arguments on this issue are full of holes.

- These women pay no tax so contribute nothing.
Well, apart from the fact that some of them do pay tax, that's an argument for getting them to pay tax, not banning their activities.

- And as for your drunk driver analogy, allowing a person to drink and drive increases massively the likelihood they are going to harm someone but allowing someone to pay for sex does no such thing. No comparison I'm afraid.
59

The real dracula,

03/11/2008 22:52:28
If it aint broke dont fix it.

All this is gonna do is drive the trade out onto the street.
Tax the women , ensure they have support in case they are being forced to do this and then let them work.

This subject is never gonna go away. Sex sells it always will.

If people are protected and use saunas discreetly then what is the problem
60

The real dracula,

03/11/2008 22:57:03
Remember there are males out there selling their bodies too. This post seems to be all about women
61

COLINTON.MAINS,

Oakville Ontario 03/11/2008 23:03:17
somebody.always.screws.a.good.thing.up
62

James (1),

04/11/2008 00:21:28
#56 I can see you want freedom for the individual to do as they please. That concept is on the surface a good one. However in reality it cannot work. You mention guns. Why do we not allow all people to have guns if they want? Because people are dangerous not the guns!
All junkies take drugs in private. That is not a reason to make taking drugs legal. They are also of low intelligence and cannot look after themselves. Similar to prostitutes. (Please do not put forward some girl using prostitution to pay her college fees)
There appears to be the belief that “if” prostitution was made legal all problems would be solved. That is utter rubbish. Pimps would still force women to do this type of work. There is money to be made exploiting these women. Tax would still not be paid although that is not a compelling reason to make it legal but none the less it would not be paid.
Drink driving is not comparable with firing a gun in public. That is a poor analogy. It is likely that more people drink drive and never get caught or have an accident. That does not make it right or a valid reason to permit it.
63

James (1),

04/11/2008 00:22:12
#64 It's full stop man! Where.have.you.been?
64

James (1),

04/11/2008 00:31:22
#61 Once more you clutch at straws to try to make a point. Even you will concede that there are more of these women not paying tax than do. If you fail to acknowledge that then there is little hope of a discussion with you.
Paying tax is not and never has been the issue with me. It is only one part of this subject. What we need to do is stop paying ANY benefit to prostitutes who are caught “working”.
My drink drive analogy was to show that freedom of choice is not a god given right just because you choose to do it and not harming anyone. Sexually transmitted diseases do come from sexual contact. I wonder if these prostitutes have ever past such a thing on. Probably not! I also take it that prostitutes do not get beaten up? After all as you say someone paying for sex would not do such a thing. I told you Scotpep was lying that prostitutes get beaten up regularly.
65

James (1),

04/11/2008 00:43:59
#58 Come on, which are you? Working girl or gold fish?
Post 18 quote “They cause no harm to anyone so leave them alone.”
Post 58 quote “I never at any time said I thought they were doing nothing wrong.”
You really need to go and have a lie down, alone! Try to concentrate.
The residents these prostitutes upset are law abiding, tax payers. These women are parasites on society. They are not working they are carrying out an illegal activity and caused upset to law abiding residents. That means they are causing harm. So off they should go.
These women (not you) are being exploited and to repeat myself, by making it legal will not change their status. They will still be exploited and a burden to the general public.
66

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

04/11/2008 01:09:47
57 Grantcat: It's surely the very essence of a tolerant society for adults to choose for themselves who to sleep with and who to trade with, without interference from others.
67

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

04/11/2008 01:12:35
#65 asks why we don't permit people to have guns. It's simply because we don't respect people's freedom to see to the defence of themselves and others. I'm as in favour of the right to buy guns for those with no criminal or mental capacity history as I am in favour of their freedom to trade sex or drugs as they choose.
68

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

04/11/2008 01:15:07
#65: I'm not in favour of legalising prostitution because it would solve problems (though it will solve some, such as the taxation issue). I'm in favour of legalisation of prostitution because it shouldn't be illegal in the first place. It is quite simply immoral of us to tell other adults who they may or may not sleep with and who they may or may not trade with. It's nobody's business but their own.
69

Decent,

04/11/2008 09:23:20
68 - I think it is you who should have a lie down. One minute they are parasites - the next they are being exploited! And how do you know the residents are law abiding taxpayers? They could be just as big parasites as the prostitutes - only cleverer.
70

Hearts Daft,

Edinburgh 04/11/2008 09:58:14
Where is this all going to end? There are laws against smoking, laws against drinking now laws to criminalise consenting adults agreeing to have sex for money!
Next, will be laws making it illegal to have sex outwith marriage completely. Then the homosexuals will once again be outlawed for having sex with same sex partners.
Are we living in the 17th Century? Are adults not allowed to make decisions for themselves in this society? Is it not an individuals right to use their body as they see fit, and if they want to sell their body for sex and are stopped from this then are not their civil liberties being curtailed?
71

James (1),

04/11/2008 11:55:46
#71 I don’t agree with your views but agree you should have the right to your own opinion on drugs and prostitutes. If it is looked on purely as a business then to make it legal would change nothing other than the pimps could exploit the “trade” even more.
Why are you ignoring the lessons of Amsterdam? It does not go away and an area becomes contaminated with these prostitutes and drugs. That is what would happen here.
Regarding the morality, society sets what is acceptable and what is not. Prostitution is not acceptable and is rightly seen as a seedy practice. The women have every opportunity to get away from it and do not. That is why it needs to be made more difficult for them to operate.
72

James (1),

04/11/2008 12:02:36
#72 Let me be clear about this, prostitutes are parasites! The goodie two shoes let them live their lives as the want types say they are exploited. That is rubbish but none the less that is how they try to portray these spongers.
With regard to asking about the residents, please stop making a fool of yourself.
How much tax do you pay? Mmmm! Going to get all indignant now? How dare I! What business is it of yours type reply.
Parasites fits the bill for a descriptions of sex “workers”.
73

Decent,

04/11/2008 12:52:40
These women (not you) are being exploited and to repeat myself, by making it legal will not change their status. They will still be exploited and a burden to the general public.

Your words from you post at 68. Make your mind up dear. I pay way to much tax and am the first to complain about scroungers. A lot of these girls have no choice. It's easy for you to say they can get out from your posh flat at the shore. How much deprivation have you experienced?

I think it's maybe a mummy fixation you suffer from. We'll know where to look when they start getting murdered eh Mstr Bates.
74

James (1),

04/11/2008 13:37:59
#76 To hopefully clarify my point, as I assumed too much regarding your intelligence and your ability to read between the lines. For that I apologise. Let’s keep it very simple so as not to lose you? These women are a burden on society and leech off decent people. No matter whether they work on the street or in a sauna. They are portrayed by some as poor unfortunates. Boo, hoo! Everybody feel sorry for them. There are people out there who try to blame others for these women being prostitutes. People like you, who spout such utter rubbish as “They have no choice”. Of course they have a choice! You had a choice and now work in doors. Now what needs to be done is make them leave prostitution and do real work. Can I also point out I do not and never have stayed in an area where prostitutes have or do operate. My objection to them is that they cause decent people grief and as you have clearly shown do not care about doing so. That is why they need to be moved on and hopefully driven out of business.
75

Decent,

04/11/2008 14:02:14
Oh bit touchy there! Hit a nerve eh!
Well on you go - try and move them on - they have been working the trade for thousands of years and will continue to do so long after you and I are gone. As I also said before (but I seem to have to keep repeating myself with you) as long as you "men" have your "needs" we will have prostitutes.
As for upsetting "decent" people I suppose you would count the guy who lived in Trinity and drove a Mercedes? Think you will find he never paid tax either but there you go you can't always judge by appearances.
Drive them out of business - my what ambition you have. I hope you put it to good use.
76

James (1),

04/11/2008 14:13:08
#78 Now, now don't start to make out you are providing a service for us men. You type are in the business to make untaxed profit along with claiming benefit.
Prostitutes use the code "if the general public are stupid enough allowing it why should we not fleece them?"
I am not aware of the person from Trinity. So now we are both shown as ignorant. You are just in front at the moment!
Prostitution can be greatly reduced. Now that the current Deputy Chief Constable is not willing to turn a blind eye to it like Tom Wood did.
That is all that is needed. Police doing there job or put another way, they moved you!
77

Decent,

04/11/2008 14:31:19
As I said again and again how many prostitutes would there be without men? Who else do you think they provide a service for? I don't see many women stopping their cars on Salamander Street do you?
The person from Trinity was a drugs dealer like a lot of the people you call decent. Just because you've got an expensive house doesn't make you decent you know. You are a bit naive aren't you
And why should the police be out arresting prostitutes? There are serious criminals not wearing seatbelts.
Now away you go and put your mothers clothes on.
78

James (1),

04/11/2008 14:42:38
#80 Now is that the best argument you can come up with?
Very, very poor!
As I said I am not aware of the man from Trinity but he seems to have similar morals to prostitutes.
Get what you can, how you can and forget decency. That is for chumps.
Also try and keep up with the times. Seat belts are a thing of the past. Targetting prostitutes is the way ahead. By doing this they are cleaning up the streets and making it a no go area for them. Now they need to target "saunas". If you want to see a blank expression just as one of the girls (really women past their sell by date)if you can have a sauna. The reply will probably be "What's that?" They think sauna is like a trade name, such as Boots. Now that name could be used?
79

Decent,

04/11/2008 14:51:19
Sorry but don't understand that at all. Did you have a wee glass of chardonnay in the wine bar at lunch?
Repeating myself again but I really think you should get some help or you could become the Edinburgh Ripper.
80

James (1),

04/11/2008 15:09:28
#82 Come on, my last post was funny?
Using the name Boots instead of Sauna inferring that the occupants ..... Come on, that must have made you smile or seethe? It was funny!
Anyway stop being so dramatic by trying to make out that anyone who is against prostitution must be the next ripper. That just makes you appear foolish.
You make a good living out of what you do. Perhaps you are not a benefit cheat. However your "work" colleagues are not so honest.


81

Decent,

04/11/2008 15:44:30
No I don't think you are funny Mario and Foo are funny you are just tedious. And don't pretend you are just against prostitution - you despise these girls. That makes you dangerous. I hope you don't drive a haulage truck. Do you have a beard?
82

Decent,

04/11/2008 15:53:47
Now I've won - so give up and go away. I can't let you have the last word coz I'm a woman.
83

James (1),

04/11/2008 16:08:48
#84 Mario and Foo are the same person! You must be one of the last persons to know this? Foo gets to make the funny reasonable jokes and Mario gets to say what Foo really means but does not have the bottle to say. The things you do not know would make a person rich if they got a penny for each time you came to a wrong conclusion about.
Once again you are wrong about me (previously you said I stayed in the area the girls worked. Wrong!) You said I despise these girls(Wrong- do you see a pattern forming?) and I would actually support any venture to get them away from this seedy lifestyle. Having said that I am not prepared to ignore this problem just to give these parasites an easy life. To quote you “As I said again and again how many prostitutes would there be without men?” If we turned this around and said how many men would be loitering about if there were no prostitutes? Was that the sound of a penny dropping?
You have a vested interest in keeping prostitution going. You also appear to be deluding yourself that you are championing some noble cause?
84

Decent,

04/11/2008 16:37:10
Their contribution to society is nil.
They leech of the tax payer and serve no purpose except their own.
They take and that is all they do.
Prostitutes make as much contribution to society as shoplifters do.
They have got themselves into this situation and I will not for one moment feel sorry for them as there is ample help available to get them off it. The choose not to and I choose not to care.
These women are parasites on society.
These women are a burden on society and leech off decent people.

All your own work - and you DON'T despise them? I don't think you realise how bitter you come across. Perhaps it's time you paid them another visit.
85

James (1),

04/11/2008 16:55:53
#87 Those comments are all accurate and unfortunately I cannot take any of them back because they are all true.

I do not however despise them but I do not feel sorry for them. There is ample help available to get them away from their sordid practice. They just need to ask Scotpep. Why do they not do that?
A drug dealer or a junkie can justify why they do what they do. Prostitutes are no different. It is always someone else to blame. Poor them! If only this or only that had happened!
Let them try to "work" without sponging of decent members of society and then maybe, just maybe I would think they have the right to do what they want the freedom to do. As it is their freedom costs others money.
There is no need for any woman to be a prostitute other than taking the easy option.
Please stop trying to make them out as victims because they are not.

86

Decent,

04/11/2008 18:20:29
Well for once you are talking some sense. I actually kind of agree with you. However I don't think it's any easy way - must be the worst job in the world.
The only thing that annoyed me was these folk that bought the flats then decided they didn't like their surroundings.
87

punterpride,

bury 04/11/2008 18:57:20
i think the religious fanatics should get their own house in order before preaching,ie the paedophile priests,vicars and reverends that exist within the religious industry and have been abusing children for many years.
women have a right to sell sex if thats their choice and their working environment should be made as safe as possible,the new zealand law has shown how this can be done as opposed to the swedish law which has made womens lives more dangerous for the sake of political idealogy
88

Scotkiwi,

New Zealand 06/11/2008 19:51:18
'Fellow Labour MSP Marlyn Glen said she wanted to build cross-party support for making it illegal to buy sex. She said: "The message from New Zealand (where prostitution was decriminalised five years ago) is decriminalisation doesn't work because they have seen an increase in the number of women on the street." '

This is quite simply untrue and shows this person has not taken the time to read the research carried out in New Zealand properly.

To be honest with you i think the only people qualified to inform these decisions and comment on the sex industry in an informed way are those who have engaged with the industry directly i.e. sex workers, ex sex workers, those working within sex workers rights organisations, other organisations providing services for sex workers and researchers who have conducted reliable, peer reviewed research on the sex industry. Most other members of the public are often well meaning but uninformed about the realities. Comments like this are indicative of this:

'Prostitutes make as much contribution to society as shoplifters do.'

Sex workers do many, many things with their lives in addition to sex work (which also counts as a contribution to society). They work in all sorts of occupations and come from many different spheres. Attitudes like the one I have cited above are what need to be challenged in society, not sex workers themselves or those who choose to purchase consenting sex from them.


89

punterpride,

bury 06/11/2008 21:46:12
scotkiwi, well said.
sexworkers are being persecuted in the same way that homosexuals were persecuted many years ago and much of this persecution comes from the nulabour govt who are supposed to believe in tolerance and equality

 

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