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Hotel would 'obliterate' city's heritage status, says expert

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Published Date: 03 June 2009
ONE of the world's foremost conservation experts believes plans for a controversial hotel development "ignore and obliterate" the world heritage status of Scotland's capital.
Professor Herb Stovel, a long-time adviser to world heritage body Unesco, told a public inquiry in Edinburgh that the 17-storey development would dramatically change the city's Haymarket district.

Prof Stovel, who was behind a major study which le
d to Edinburgh securing world heritage status, said it made no difference that the five-star hotel proposed by Irish developer Tiger was outside the designated site.

The professor, a regular visitor to Edinburgh in recent years, was accused of "betraying" his independence by agreeing to back the heritage group which is fighting the development, earmarked for a gap site which has been lying empty for more than 40 years.

He insisted he was addressing the hearing in a personal capacity and that during recent visits to Edinburgh he had become increasingly concerned about the impact of proposed major developments, like the ones at Haymarket, Caltongate and the proposed replacement for the St James shopping centre. The inquiry has heard claims that the Intercontinental hotel will ruin famous views of the city and dominate the Haymarket area. It has attracted almost 2,000 objectors.

The Scottish Government called in Tiger's application last autumn during an official visit by Unesco inspectors to the city's world heritage site.

Civil servants said the council had failed to make a strong enough case to justify that such a tall building was appropriate for its location, next to Haymarket railway station. The Canadian academic, who is based at Carleton University, studied in Edinburgh in the 1970s and returned to the city in the early 1990s to assess the capital's Old and New Towns after the city's bid to secure world heritage status, which was granted in 1995.

Speaking about the Haymarket project, Prof Stovel said it would be "hard to argue" that a development 30 feet from the boundary of the world heritage site should not maintain harmony with immediately adjacent properties within the Unesco-recognised are.

He told the inquiry: "Even though the proposed development lies immediately outside the world heritage zone, it cannot be regarded as a 'no man's land', open to any form of new development.

"The strategic importance of the site, poised at the junction between the Old Town and New Town, and astride a key entry to the heart of Edinburgh, demands that any development subordinate itself to the character and attributes of the New and Old Towns."

Prof Stovel said the development should have provided an "entry" into Edinburgh in keeping with the city's status and "not one which attempts to ignore and obliterate that status".

He added: "The project in my view constitutes a dramatic disruption to the character of the existing urban fabric and would have strongly negative impacts on many of the key attributes that define the character of the (Haymarket] district around the development site."

Prof Stovel denied claims by Roy Martin, QC, representing Tiger, that he had become a "partisan advocate" of the Cockburn Association's stance – in sharp contrast to his previous role as an independent assessor for Unesco and its advisory body ICOMOS.

The professor said he had been asked to appear at the inquiry after giving a lecture organised by the Cockburn Association last year, but insisted he was not being paid a professional fee to appear as a witness. The inquiry continues.





Page 1 of 1

 
1

Buttress,

03/06/2009 00:04:09
Betraying his independence? It's clear to anyone with half a brain these developments would spoil the city, and thank heavens he is prepared to stand up and say so.
2

Rap,

03/06/2009 00:12:05
It was a really fascinating couple of hours listening to him as he taught us all so much about our own city and how world heritage status is inscribed, kept and removed.
3

Mallory,

Edinburgh 03/06/2009 05:38:14
..The professor insisted he was not being paid a professional fee to appear as a witness.

Unlike Roy Martin QC who is presumably representing the Developers pro bono?
4

dba,

HAYMARKET 03/06/2009 06:27:52
THREE CHEERS for a man who IS prepared to stand up for the heritage ofthe City of Edinburgh, rather than fall prey to the tsunami of greed, deception and betrayal that has englufed this project from the very start!

One man's vision is everyone else's nightmare and nothing is more true than in this case.

'Tiger', it's driectors, shareholders, the architects and consultants ALL have immense financial expectations if they are allowed to permamently blight the west of the centre of the city.

The area, with the worst levels of air pollution in the city will now have those levels escalated further by the immense incredase in traffic going to or leaving this 'monster'. Something the developers have been remarkably reticent to discuss or even try to quantify.

Under the Freedom of Information Act it would be interesting to see the entire correspondence (including electronic) that has passed between the developers, the srchitects AND the Planning Department and Committee.

We've got deceit and deception in Westminster and, it has been claimed, identical practice in Edinburgh!

5

Buttress,

03/06/2009 06:58:26
Well, let's add Historic Scotland to that list, which still has questions to answer over a thirteen thousand quid report it comissioned on Caltongate from Drivers Jonas (after the plans had been passed)which is probably why there was no public inquiry over that. That report was risible, but clearly it did the job. Note that it supported the Haymarket Tower; you have to ask why.

Yes, what's going on in Edinburgh with the council and developers needs some close scrutiny.
6

Buttress,

03/06/2009 07:07:03
Rap, I note that the World Heritage Committeee is discussing the removal of Dresden from the WH list this month, in Seville. Of course, there are now those who would like to see Edinburgh lose that status, as then it will be a developers' free for all. Snouts in troughs. Not that a great deal seems to prevent them doing just as they like, does it?

I note the UK has put forward the Pontcysyllte Aqueduct and Canal for inscription.

http://whc.unesco.org/en/news/509

7

Buttress,

03/06/2009 07:24:33
And for those who still don't understand what world heritage is all about, claiming 'undemocratic interference' etc in our planning system (that, I recall, included Richard Murphy:- "But Murphy described UNESCO as a “conservation mafia” and slammed Matsuura’s view of Caltongate. “I suspect that this whole UNESCO relationship is a cosy little club,” he said. “Some guy turns up who’s never been to Edinburgh before and the first thing he says is he’s worried about Caltongate..." (Building Design):-



'The Convention encourages international cooperation to safeguard the common heritage of humanity. With 186 States Parties, it is one of the most widely ratified international legal instruments. When signing the Convention, States Parties commit to identifying sites for potential inscription and to preserving sites on the World Heritage List, as well as sites of national and regional importance, notably by providing an appropriate legal and regulatory framework.'

8

Buttress,

03/06/2009 07:34:24
Murphy, last year:-

"BD: The hotel has already generated a lot of interest.

Richard Murphy: It’s no big deal to me. Virtually every building I’ve done in Edinburgh has been subject to campaigns to stop it happening. I’ve now got an incredibly thick skin about it and I just laugh."

"Edinburgh New Town was conceived as a city and it generally has some unity about it. Unfortunately, that New Town mentality has spread to the whole of Edinburgh. There’s no place for individual buildings, everything has to blend in with the building next door."

"The Haymarket is a part of the city which has been terribly down at heel, and potentially it could become very interesting. It’s almost like La Défense in Paris.

BD: Do you mean as a location for a cluster of tall buildings?

No, it’s like a sort of satellite. The Haymarket is not in the centre of Edinburgh, it’s not even in the world heritage site, it’s right on the western edge of the city.

Our hotel will breach the skyline, and a jolly good thing too. It will probably become the third most important hotel in Edinburgh. We also think something important should happen at the top of the building — so that it’s not just a plant room but a beacon with a lot of the public activities located at the top. If you happen to drive into town from the west, it will be positioned at the moment the city really gets going, that’s quite deliberate."

"As far as Unesco is concerned, I’m rather suspicious of it. What is Unesco? Who is Unesco? My experience of Unesco is some brand, a conservation mafia."

"Apart from building my own house, my ambition in Edinburgh is to build one big public building before I die."
9

Bigwull,

edinburgh 03/06/2009 08:03:30
Good then maybe we'll get our City back
10

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/06/2009 08:24:08
I'm sure Herb Stovel knows more about conservation than me, and he's entitled to hold and express his opinion, but frankly if the quotation is accurate (that this development "attempts to ignore and obliterate that [World Heritage] status") he is guilty of a descent into ludicrous hyperbole.

I agree with this: "The project in my view constitutes a dramatic disruption to the character of the existing urban fabric". But I happen to think that is a good and necessary thing. Those who want to preserve Haymarket in its current state are actually demanding that the city be held back. Disruption is precisely what this area needs!

The crux of the problem with the CA's opposition to this hotel is that its arguments would be applicable to almost any new building on that site, and could be retrospectively applied to a range of new buildings that already exist in the area. What that means is that they are not actually opposing these plans - they are opposing progress in general.

I have great respect for the Cockburn Association - some of my best friends have worked for and with them - but on this one I say they are wrong. Focus on the Old Town and the New Town. The city needs areas of greater freedom, and Haymarket is already one of them. Don't try to close this stable door when the horse has long since left.
11

Rap,

03/06/2009 08:47:09
#11 You are wrong on so many fronts, and not for the first time Duncan. This is an well trodden path we take now .

- No-one has argued over the last 7 days to maintain the status quo, a car park. Not one person. Everyone wants the BEST development for such a crucial entrance point into the city (and WHS).

- Do you really understand the CA's case? In detail? Their objections would not be true of every development on that site, and to think so is ill informed codswallop. Have you read their Statement of Case, heard the point the witnesses are making? No.

- In general aqll the objectors want the same thing - a proper, rigourous design framework for the whole of the Haymarket area, which will incorporate the Haymarket station redevelopment - a huge civic space which will impact all visitors/commuters through the station, drivers around the area and communities. It should also include a detailed design requirement for the Morrison St. car park. What has happened is that a draft framework was drawn up a week before the decision was made on the Haymarket site, and it was out for public consultation until the end of August. The draft framework was finalised by the planning committee in the autumn, 6 months after planning permission was given on the site.

I don't think these objections are too much to ask really, to just bide out time and determine what we really want and need and do it in a joined up fashion, and do it well and coherently. It's not an anti-development approach, but it is one that isn't entirely profit driven for commercial developers. We all have a say in what happens in our city and our neighbourhood.
12

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/06/2009 09:06:43
#12 While a lot of what you say makes sense, you don't seem to have acknowledged my actual criticisms. Yes, a framework for the area would be a good thing, but that is precisely the sort of argument against that would be applicable to *any* development on the site!

Bide our time and determine what we really want? I'm afraid I've heard that code before. It actually means turn down every plan because there's always a reason to object, and end up with nothing.

I maintain that claiming this "attempts to ignore and obliterate that [World Heritage] status" is ludicrous hyperbole, and dangerously skews the debate towards extremist preservation rather than constructivist conservation. That is deeply unhelpful to a successful outcome.
13

Buttress,

03/06/2009 09:11:15
Duncan is, as ever, only here to be 'controversial'... and as for wanting to preserve Haymarket (or any other gap site) in its current state, that's a tired old cliche, a banality trotted out by those who are anti-conservation repeatedly

Development can be a good thing, but let's try to get decent development, eh, and not just the ones which stisfy the ego of individuals and make the maximum cash for developers?

14

Buttress,

03/06/2009 09:13:09
And Duncan - you have taken one statement out of its wider context, and arguing the same tired old nonsense which any developer trots out when his pet project is criticiszed. Desist.
15

Buttress,

03/06/2009 09:14:39
In fact Dunkie - as Rap says,

"...ill informed codswallop."

16

,

03/06/2009 09:26:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
17

Buttress,

03/06/2009 09:29:11
Oh, I see Dunkie is into low-level, slightly sexist personal abuse today. Bye Dunkie. Won't waste any more time on you, and suspect Rap won't be either.
18

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/06/2009 09:41:42
#18 You might want to read back #14, #15 and #16 before complaining about low-level personal abuse. Or you might just want to continue pretending that everyone who doesn't agree with you is "only here to be controversial", which will save you from ever having to justify yourself.
19

SuzieC,

Hebrides 03/06/2009 09:42:32
Architects, developers, and planners have wrecked some of the most historic towns and cities in Britain. Some modern architecture might be considered beautiful (can't immediately think of any) but many modern developments are monstrosities. We need someone like Professor Stovel to stand up and say so. Most of us ordinary mortals seem to be aghast at the proposals for some of the developments that are allowed these days.

The Haymarket area might be outside the Heritage Site, but the proposed development will dominate the skyline, drawing the eye away from the historic skyline that attracts so many tourists to Edinburgh. They may be a nuisance when they crowd the city's streets and restaurants but, with Scottish banking in decline/disgrace, tourism plays an ever more important economic role.

Whatever development is allowed needs to be at least in scale, if not in keeping.
20

Buttress,

03/06/2009 09:46:30
Nah, I don't need to read back, my memory is fine, thanks, as is, I am sure that of many people who know excatly why you post here.

Find another topic on which to argue Dunkie, although I do find you amusing I really have had my chuckle for today.

If you don't agree with me, it's a free(ish) country, but really, Dunkie, do come up with something fresh and pertinent, and not the same old 'cosnsrvationists want the place never to move on' stuff. It's wrong.

21

Buttress,

03/06/2009 10:10:20
Clearly, Joe knows more about World Heritage than Herb Stovel:-)
22

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/06/2009 10:37:17
Interesting. #17, which contained no personal abuse but did get on the nerves of one particular poster has been removed, while #22, which is direct personal abuse, has suffered no such fate. Censorship is such a random business.
23

Neo,

Edinburgh 03/06/2009 10:47:42
About time that this ugly hotel and offices were exposed for what they are. The hotel and offices do not belong in this part of town as they are far too high and do not blend in with the buildings in this area. I hope that planning consent is refused or we will have another building that will be as ugly as the St james Centre
Neo
24

Buttress,

03/06/2009 10:50:20
It is isn't it Dunkie, but try to avoid being a tad sexist, it speaks volumes about you when you are.

Now, back to discussion of the Haymarket Tower, which is what this is all about...

25

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/06/2009 11:16:24
#26 Funny also how your re-christening of me as "Dunkie" - which I assume is designed to suggest I am infantile, or at the very least to disempower - is fine as far as you are concerned; meanwhile a reference to you as matronly is too sexist to remain visible. Curious, curious.
26

Buttress,

03/06/2009 11:41:02
No no Dunkie, it's to show affection! You make me smile! Totally non-genderist too.

But I am sure the world isn't really interested in a personal spat, and frankly, matronly is about the last thing I could be described as, so wrong again.

But back to that hotel...
27

Seb,

03/06/2009 11:43:21
Frankly I don't care what Herb Stovel thinks or that Edinburgh has WHS. Any argument against the hotel should be on design grounds not because of nebulous universal values. No matter how much someone hates the tower, it most certainly will not "obliterate" the heritage or attractiveness of the city

I'm not sure I want all new development to be "subordinate itself to the character and attributes of the New and Old Towns" as that would suggest all new deveopment would lack any character at all, like most of Allan Murray's unfortuante work
Stovel doesn't like the Parliament either while I think it emulates the fragmented character of the OT well.

The heritage groups need to come up with good examples of new design in historic settings to show that excellent contemporary architecture would enhance the WHS. Would Peter Zumthor get work here?
28

Buttress,

03/06/2009 12:02:50
Well, Seb, I doubt that Prof Stovel or UNESCO or in fact the DCMS really cares that you don't care about WHS status. I think taking a phrase out of its context then chewing on that isn't getting anywhere much. I have no doubt Prof Stovel had a great deal more of interest to say.

Some of us do think the World Heritage ideals are fine ones,though. I can't see what's not to like, but there you go.

Problem is in Edinburgh is its insularity, using 'local' architects with little or no conservation expertise who are driven by ego and not the spirit of the place.

For someone who claims to 'work in conservation' though you do seem not be wishy washy about it all :-)

As for parliament, it does provoke mixed reactions. Nothing new there.
29

Buttress,

03/06/2009 12:07:11
Nope - that should have read 'to be'.

30

Buttress,

03/06/2009 12:20:30
Hmmm. I really can't comment on point 1, as I have no personal involvement, and as for 2...
31

Seb,

03/06/2009 12:31:57
I don't dislike the UNESCO ideals I just don't find them particularly productive in this sort of situation. WHS has been bandied about as a reason to object to a number of major planning applications when design quality and intended use is the problem and the real arguments get lost in a heritage miasma. WHS does not have sufficient traction within the planning system (even if the DCMS have signed up to the principles) or with our politicians, local and national. Edinburgh's stunning qualities are cherished locally and it should be for local reasons that we protect them. The value of the status to the city is impossible to quantify as we hardly lacked visitors before inscription.

If only architects with 'conservation expertise' are to be permitted to work in Edinburgh we're doomed - a city full of Tindall twiddles and Simpson's unspeakably good taste would be awful. Murphy's Dublin Colonies, Fishmarket Close and Canongate buildings are all excellent (and respect the prevailing massing)and work in the spirit of the place. If architects were without ego we wouldn't have had Adam, Pugin, Bruce, Burnet etc etc so you really need to give up on criticising the vanity of the architects.

We need NORD, Elder & Cannon and yes, more Sutherland Hussey.
32

Laird o' Glenrothes,

Re-located to the wonderful city of Aberdeen 03/06/2009 12:32:41
I used to enjoy having a read at some of the comments left in here.

It seems now that some nerds have taken over. Don't you guys have any work to do today? If I was your boss, I'd sack you.
33

Buttress,

03/06/2009 13:07:12
The British government has 'signed' up, Seb. The DCMS is in reality merely the admin, and advisor, although it has not taken it as seriously as it should up to now and I think is having a bit of a fright at the backlash.

However, this will, in many people's eyes, have an effect on the WHS status and values, and I think that you really are losing the plot over what some of that is about.

I also agree, that design is frequently the point, but as that is so subjective and not really always a concrete planning issue (Murphy thinks his design, which I think might have been OK for a Docklands Premier Inn but not a gateaway to a WHS, is world class...) then any and all weapons in the armoury have to be deployed. That's what wins or loses inquiries, it's really mostly about the paperwork.

There are times when conservation expertise would have heped inform. And Jeez, there's nothing wrong with 'good taste' either. It's better than bad taste. I don't see many 'twiddles' here either:

http://www.benjamintindallarchitects.co.uk/BTA_News.htm

I can criticize whom I wish Seb, and I suggest you don't keep telling me what to do; yes, some great architects have and have had egos, as do some really, really bad ones. ('Caltongate or Edinburgh must die...')

Yes, Murphy has done some decent things, but he's not doing it here. And his posturing and claims re a 'conservation mafia'... that's opposed to the developers' mafia, then?
34

Seb,

03/06/2009 13:21:59
I can criticize whom I wish Seb, and I suggest you don't keep telling me what to do; yes, some great architects have and have had egos, as do some really, really bad ones. ('Caltongate or Edinburgh must die...')

Therefore the architect's ego is irrelevant to criticizing a design, undermines your argument and makes you sound petty.

A city full of good taste isn't a city it's a stage set.

What are you going to do if I keep telling you what to do? Sp*nk me?

35

Buttress,

03/06/2009 13:26:44
No, it doesn't make me sound petty, I could say the same about you... yah boo sucks etc... is this an argument? I thought it was a bit of trivia. I maybe should be more serious in future than.

Sp*nking. Really? do you like that?

Interesting...

( This site will not accept the word sp*nking.)
36

The Legacy of James Gillespie,

Edinburgh 03/06/2009 13:29:43
The paradox of our obsession with conservation is that it provides the prefect excuse for those inclined towards prevarication and a fear of change. Todays architecture is tomorrows heritage.

Our country has been held back for decades by people who cannot relate to progress, fear change & have little or no understandng of how to create economic prosperity.

To complain and reject is easy. To embrace progress takes intelligence and a strength of character.

I find it so disappointing to read so many comments which fulfill the Scottish stereotype.
37

Buttress,

03/06/2009 13:30:18
"A city full of good taste isn't a city it's a stage set."


Of course. Those awfully tasteful buildings which were built in the past in Edinburgh really must go. Murray is king.
38

Buttress,

03/06/2009 13:32:25
40 - those are stale tired impoverished old arguments which have little real relevance to conservation of the built heritage any longer, if indeed they ever did.







39

Old Town Resident,

edinburgh 03/06/2009 13:37:58
Well Pol Pott certainly embraced progress 40, like Buttress says that old chestnut doesn`t wash
40

Duncan in Edinburgh,

03/06/2009 13:40:42
#42 So you keep saying, whilst shouting "No!" at any and every new development in the city.
41

Buttress,

03/06/2009 13:51:11
Not true Dunkie, but then there are so many bad ones aren't there to say no to (I don't shout, model of decorum, me).

I do think this idea that we embrace progess because in that way we have the heritage of the future is rather odd argument. But there you go.

Richard Griffiths Architects has done some good stuff around King's Cross. Juat thought I'd mention it,in case some of you ever get on the train to Lunnon, though no doubt not radical enough for some, it's possible to retain history AND create economic prosperity.



42

Seb,

03/06/2009 13:53:06
I'm trying to help you Buttress... sorry that you can't see it.

The city's historical buildings aren't all good taste, as you previously agreed about the Balmoral and I haven't suggested that any should be replaced with the banal.

Gillespie's child is right that there is a resistance to the new in Edinburgh, the two edged sword has prevented some horrors but also resulted in stultifying innovation.
43

Buttress,

03/06/2009 13:54:10
http://www.hughpearman.com/2006/31.html
44

Buttress,

03/06/2009 13:54:43
Seb, I don't think I need your help!
45

Kitti Kat,

03/06/2009 16:55:51
WHy not ask the visitors and people who will be booking hotel rooms which they would prefer- a "modern" 17 storey building that won't do a thing to enhance the beauty of Edinburg or her skyline OR a tall building that will obstruct the skyline? I would bet that most toiurists and people who stay in Edinburgh hotels will go for a building that will blend in with the historic buildings--as the former Scandic Crown (now the Radisson?) and Bank hotel on the Royal Mile. And, let's not forget the new Apex hotel on WAterloo Place. The owners have taken an older building and updated it on the inside. There's no reason that the new buildings can't be constructed to fit the existing ones.
46

Buttress,

03/06/2009 16:59:19
No, but there is no reason why new buildings can't look new either, and be attractive(yes, subjective but...) and respectful of their existing neighbours.

It would be interesting to invite a few internationally known architects who have a track record of this to produce a design... and maybe a few students too!
47

Pilrig,

Livingston 03/06/2009 19:09:30
St James Centre - dontcha luvvit ?
48

Buttress,

27/10/2009 22:08:25
Refused permission today.


 

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