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Unesco to investigate if Edinburgh should lose world heritage status

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Published Date: 07 July 2008
AN INVESTIGATION has been ordered into Edinburgh's World Heritage Status, The Scotsman has learned.
An official inquiry, which may lead to the capital being stripped of the title by Unesco, was launched yesterday at a summit of the world heritage committee in the Canadian city of Quebec.

Delegates said they were particularly concerned about the potential impact and handling by the Scottish Government of Caltongate, a massive new development in Edinburgh's Old Town, which was approved despite around 1,800 objections being received.

The Scottish Government, which approved the scheme last month after dismissing demands for a public inquiry, has been condemned for failing to consult Unesco before coming to a final decision on the scheme, which will see two listed buildings demolished to make way for a five-star hotel.

The inquiry will also examine the proposed redevelopment of Leith's docklands over the next 20 years and the planned revamp of the St James Centre.

A team of Unesco inspectors will visit Edinburgh later this year to assess its "state of conservation". The Scottish Government has been ordered to submit its own dossier by February of next year. The 2009 Unesco summit in Seville will then decide if there is enough evidence for Edinburgh to be placed on the "at risk" register.

A spokesman for Unesco's world heritage committee said: "The committee voiced concern at the potential impact of the Caltongate development and were also deeply concerned that it was approved by the state government in June without complying with the operational guidelines for world heritage sites."

The Scotsman understands that Unesco officials are adamant Caltongate fell under the category of "major restorations or new constructions which may affect the outstanding universal value of the property". According to its guidelines, Unesco should be consulted before any such development is ruled on.

The opening of the inquiry into Edinburgh's world heritage status, which Unesco awarded to the Old and New Towns in 1995, will be a major concern for the city council and the Scottish Government.

Councillors have come under mounting pressure from their own officials and business leaders in the capital not to turn down major developments amid claims Edinburgh is losing out on investment to Manchester and Glasgow. However, heritage and conservation groups have repeatedly warned that Edinburgh's heritage status is being put at risk by over-development of sensitive sites.

About 2,000 jobs have been promised by Mountgrange, the developer of the £300 million Caltongate scheme, which involves the creation of a hotel and conference centre, 200 homes, a public square, office blocks and a new arts quarter.

Councillors approved the vast majority of the Caltongate scheme at the first time of asking. The same happened last month when a 17-storey hotel at Haymarket was approved despite claims it would ruin views from as far afield as the Dean Gallery and Inverleith Park.

Liverpool is already being investigated by Unesco amid concern over the scale of development at its waterfront, while a separate inquiry is under way into the impact of new skyscrapers near the Tower of London.

Historic Scotland endorsed the Caltongate development, but has been fiercely critical of the proposals for Leith Docks and the St James Centre.

Historic Scotland declined to comment yesterday, but culture minister Linda Fabiani, who is responsible for the agency, said: "I'm confident that when the Unesco mission visits our capital, it will see a vibrant, growing city which embraces its cultural and architectural heritage as well as managing an improvement in development that benefits Edinburgh as a whole."

Steve Cardownie, Edinburgh's deputy council leader, said: "I don't think we'd be too perturbed over this. It's fairly commonplace for Unesco to re-evaluate World Heritage Sites and that kind of scrutiny goes along with the title. I don't think Edinburgh has done anything to devalue its status."

The St Kilda archipelago, New Lanark and Orkney's "Neolithic Heart" are among Scotland's other world heritage sites.

Neighbours hit roof over plan for sloping building

The planned 'bookend' building designed by a leading architect
The planned 'bookend' building designed by a leading architect
IT MAY look like a perfectly innocuous modern building. But this sloping house is at the centre of the latest controversy over whether modern development should be allowed in the historic heart of Edinburgh.

One of Scotland's leading architects is behind plans for the "bookend" building he claims will repair damage done by an "ugly gable-end" in the capital's New Town. He has bought roughly half of a garden in the area for a £500,000 luxury home for himself.

But Richard Murphy, made an OBE last year, has triggered a storm of opposition from neighbours who claim the new building will ruin the look of the Georgian terrace in Hart Street.

The designer of award-winning buildings including Dundee Contemporary Arts, Edinburgh's Fruitmarket Gallery and Stirling's Tolbooth says his new home will be one of the most environmentally-friendly in the city and will win architectural plaudits.

However, neighbours have branded his designs "suitable only for dog kennels".

Mr Murphy has designed several controversial conversions in the New Town, including modern "mews" flats in Dublin Street Lane and a Japanese-style house on Circus Lane.

A petition says his latest design will look "completely out of place" in the Georgian terrace and will claim the attention of "everyone who ventures into Hart Street".

Mr Murphy said he fully expects council officials to recommend his plans are rejected, but has pledged to appeal.

He said: "I know it will be controversial, but I'm simply trying to place a piece of contemporary design in a historic context. I want people to imagine this building having been in this location for 20 years and whether they would rather have an ugly gable end instead. It will go on to win awards. People will never argue for it to be demolished."

Gordon Peters, 64, a health consultant, of Hart Street, said: "This is the World Heritage Site. It just looks so out of place. There's no attempt to disguise it."

Another neighbour on Forth Street, who asked not to be named, said: "People are horrified at what Richard Murphy is trying to do. It will be a horrible eyesore that will also affect the privacy and enjoyment of these gardens by a huge number of people."

A 17-storey five-star hotel development Mr Murphy designed for a gap site next to Edinburgh's Haymarket railway station was approved last month – despite one councillor comparing it to "an alien spaceship dropped in from Doctor Who".

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 06 July 2008 9:39 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Fifi la Bonbon,

07/07/2008 00:16:40
I think if people want to live in "Georgian splendour" they should be made to dress up in the fashions of the time.

For example, that "health consultant" of Hart Street, ought to have to call himself a barber, and have to wear black coat and leggings, with white hose and buckled shoon. And a proper powdered wig.

In fact there could be a special checkpoint - nobody allowed into the New Town without a sufficiently powdered wig. Naturally cars would be banned - there would be sedan chairs instead.

This is the only way forward in my opinion if our nation's capital is to retain its status as the Venice of The North.

Alternatively - maybe if they dropped this world heritage nonsense the city could begin to grow up and stop being a museum.
2

Conan the Librarian™,

07/07/2008 00:21:02
1
Indeed Fifi, and every time they go to the toilet, they have to shout "Gardyloo!" oot the windae;-)
3

Fifi la Bonbon,

07/07/2008 00:25:45
Not in the New Town, surely?
4

Maisie from Morningside,

an historic city turning into a plastic slum 07/07/2008 00:44:34
World Heritage status is awarded on the basis of unique historical identity not on some glass/concrete/plastic conference/shopping centre which can be built anywhere and usually is.
There's enough eyesores in the centre of Edinburgh - Quartermile/ Appleton Tower/the hideous new computer dept for Edin Uni next door/ Jury's Inn etc etc.
5

Silence of the Yams,

07/07/2008 01:27:00
Edinburgh is going the same way as London: a carbunkle of disgusting glass and pipes, and why? Who are these faceless council wreckers and fascists that let these corporate fatcats lord it over our city with their revolting edifices to so called modernity? I hope the status is stripped because this council are cultural vandals and need sending a message!
6

CRAGman,

07/07/2008 01:52:59
The Richard Murphy building in Hart Street looks fine to me. A good modern piece of architecture in the right setting. The hugh rise hotel at Haymarket, on the other habd, is a fine building in completely the wrong setting. That does threaten the World Heritage Site status of Edinburgh - and a lot more so than does Caltongate.
7

Teofilio Cubillas,

07/07/2008 02:40:50
There's nothing wrong with modern architecture - cr*p architecture is the problem. I don't want to live in a historic theme park for the world's citizenry to enjoy, I want to live in a city that has beutiful and interesting buildings from the 15th, 16th, 17th,18th,19th,20th and 21st centuries.

But do something with Princes Street, it's an embarrassment.
8

Beth Boyle,

NY 07/07/2008 04:43:09
Modern architecture should not be butted up against outstanding historical buildings. I loath what they are planning for Edinburgh. I find it mind boggling how this could come to pass in such a fair city. world heritage status. It's vandalism as far as I am concerned.
9

Pilrig.,

Livingston 07/07/2008 05:48:22
1 - I suppose we should wear 70 flares and platform shoes every time we go into the St James Centre ?
10

John Cameron,

Broughty Ferry 07/07/2008 07:01:26
This is surely the greatest triumph of the Scottish Parliament. The phrase "lunatics in charge of the asylum" comes to mind.
11

Concerned local,

Edinburgh 07/07/2008 07:21:16
If you look at the horror that is the 'Exchange District' (and why invent names that have no historical connection with areas of the city, anyway?), you will see the full flowering of the dehumanising, impersonal, concrete-and-glass anything-you-can-do-I-can-do-much-worse school of architecture. Edinburgh Quay, Lochrin Square, Scottish Widows', Standard Life - absolutely hideous, featureless, bleak, uninspiring, depressing, overwhelmingly bad buildings.
12

Hermitage,

Edinburgh 07/07/2008 07:37:28
St James Centre has to be the worst example,closely followed by the failed 60s walkway buildings of Princes Street.

Then there's the glass-and-concrete monstrosity of HBOS as Tollcross.

Mind you, all the builings on South Bridge are tatty and could do with being blizted.
13

Phil C,

07/07/2008 07:59:22
If Unesco's aim is to preserve architecture from the past, that's fine. But where would we be if we'd stopped all past development. A skilled blend of old and new is far preferable to putting up new 'old' buildings to copy the past. New 'historic facades' should be consigned to history.

If that means Edinburgh loses World Heritage status, then big deal! Unesco would merely be showing themselves to be narrow-minded and petty. Edinburgh would still be thriving, warts and all.
14

Phil C,

07/07/2008 08:12:33
#11

For everyone that hates a development, there's someone who loves it! I have to say that I find the Exchange District fabulous. Far more inspiring than what was there or putting up some sandstone mock Georgian or concrete carbunkle. It has changing features, angles, colours and shapes- open your eyes! Oh and #12, I like the new Tollcross. I suppose if you don't like glass, you won't like glass houses.
15

Faustus,

07/07/2008 08:16:47
This really is a big fuss over nothing. Look at historic cities like Prague which manage to blend the old and the new, side by side. Nobody's suggesting that city should have its status revoked.

How have they figured that Edinburgh is any different? It is still one of Europe's most beautiful cities, and will continue to be even after Caltongate and whatever else is built in the city centre over the coming years. If you want ugly try living in Milton Keynes.
16

Guga II,

Rockall 07/07/2008 09:16:19
If they keep constructing buildings like Saint Donald Dewar's new parliament house, then they deserve to lose their world heritage status.

There's architecture, and there's garbage.
17

Buttress,

07/07/2008 09:21:51
Cardownie's a fool.

www.eh8.org.uk
18

Buttress,

07/07/2008 09:25:01
As indeed is Murphy - and an arrogant one at that.
19

The Batboy,

07/07/2008 09:26:32
Edinburgh's World Heritage status should have been lost after they demolished the old "A" listed Brewery building next to Holyrood Palace, then built that monstrous achitecture's nightmare that is the Scottish Parliament building!
20

Matthew J,

Edinburgh 07/07/2008 09:30:50
What an absolute farce!

I still wear my petty coat with pride and let my long curly locks flow down to my breeches! I've not changed my style for some 400 years, so on that basis Edinburgh most certainly should remain a world "curly" heritage site.

Pfff!
21

Buttress,

07/07/2008 09:33:47
There is nothing wrong with high quality new build in a World Heritrage saite - as long as it IS high quality, and respectful of what's there. The problem is with Caltongate, it is neither. It is anyplace, clone town stuff, a crass commercial developmet, which also fails to have any respect for listed buildings - which the council (and indeed the numpties currently in place at Historic Scotland) are happy to see demolished.

So what has the Chamber of Commerce to say now? Where is Mountgrange's mouthpiece PR firm, too?
22

Concerned local,

Edinburgh 07/07/2008 09:51:13
Thanks for your comment, #14. Just goes to show that opinions differ, I'm glad someone likes it, but at a guess I would say you don't live next to it or even near it. Otherwise you would know that it is thoroughly unpleasant, with no thought to human scale -for instance, when the wind blows, the wind tunnel effect is to ensure rubbish flies all around, the promised 'landscaping and greening' has been quietly forgotten by the devlopers who've pocketed their cash and ran. There are times when roads and pavements are blocked for weeks on end because the buildings are such poor quality that bits of cladding and roofing come loose and are a danger to anyone walking by. They block out all natural light to the smaller scale housing around them. A look at the stonework shows that it is rapidly deteriorating and after a few short years is dirty and discoloured. Yes, they have angles and shapes, colours (or rather monotones). What building doesn't? Doesn't mean they are good architecture
23

Plodjfriss, Hammer of the Numpties,

Edinburgh 07/07/2008 09:55:08
Things are changing very rapidly in the housing market at the moment, and I wonder what implications that'll have for Caltongate. With house prices starting to fall (and they may have a long way to go yet) and buy-to-let investors starting to find themselves in trouble it may suddenly be looking a lot less attractive for the developers. Many of the building companies are starting to have serious financial problems as well, so they might not find it too easy to get someone to actually build the thing. It could turn out that Caltongate never actually materialises.
24

Buttress,

07/07/2008 10:00:56
Well, that's something, 24, which has been considered for a while, so if the land is simply going to sit there, it needs to be cleared and landscaped. I believe Moutgrange has such an agreement with the council.

As it looks at though Gehry's Hove development might not happen, (see Clatongate blog for report) then hopefully Allan Henderson, Malcolm Fraser at all will go the same way...

The council was told this development should have been reported to UNESCO, it was arrogant enough to ignore that.
25

Leila,

Edinburgh 07/07/2008 10:01:38
It would probably suit Richard Murphy to claim that the neighbours to his proposed house are against modern architecture. Not so. I believe that primarily the neighbours are against anything at all being built in that particular location.

This is part of a historic walled garden which is currently used for growing fruit. Despite Richard Murphy's attempted justifications, the original deeds prohibited building on that ground. And the gable end he so dislikes has never caused any problems for people who unlike himself actually live in the area.

In order to build his proposed house, he wants to demolish the 200 year old stone walls, destroy a large section of garden, almost certainly kill two large mature trees (and take away the birdsong which is so much of a feature of the gardens), and completely block the view of the attractive listed monastery building which faces onto Hart Street. The house is billed in the planning application as an "experimental low energy house" but in addition to the environmental destruction that would be involved in its construction, it contains a garage for a car!
26

Buttress,

07/07/2008 10:02:31
Sorry - Allan Murray! Henderson is the council planner who thinks this and the Haymarket Hotel etc etc are just fine, and indeed will enhance the World Heritage Site. He's retiring, but what a legacy he's leaving behind!
27

Buttress,

07/07/2008 10:05:36
26 - interesting! As I said - arrogant man. Let's hope he does appeal then againts a refusal - all this can come out then!
28

seanie,

07/07/2008 10:11:23
Good architect though.
29

dido-bendigo,

Scotland 07/07/2008 10:15:03
#17 Guga 11, #20 The Batboy.

It is good to see common sense comments relating to heritage preservation. Should the World Heritage Site status be removed due to the new architectural trend 'The Vandalism Period' being thrust upon Edinburgh. Do you think they might then designate the mobile sand-dunes of the Aberdeenshire coast instead? If any beautiful area of Scotland needs a preservation status, it is there!
30

Nell,

The Preservation Hall 07/07/2008 10:16:09
"The inquiry will also examine the proposed redevelopment of Leith's docklands over the next 20 years and the planned revamp of the St James Centre".
Are they suggesting that they are happy with the St. James Centre as it stands? If so what sort of heritage is it?
31

Buttress,

07/07/2008 10:18:14
Please remember not all of Edinburgh is a World Heritage Site, but what is designated (and do read the citation as why it is inscribed) should be treated with rather more respect than it has been in recent times.
32

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 07/07/2008 10:18:26
If the awful new developments in Edinburgh proceed then of course it should lose its World Heritage status. Wanton destruction by greed driven idiots of both the natural environment and ancienct built history should not be tolerated - whether in Aberdeenshire or Edinburgh.
33

Captainofedinburgh,

Edinburgh 07/07/2008 10:20:46
Oh great. More totally misplaced modern architecture. I'm sure the planned house will be a great example of contemporary architecture, but why oh why build it on the end of a Georgian terrace?! It's completely the wrong place for such a development. In response to other comments above, I think the Parliament is a great piece of modern architecture but again, it's in entirely the wrong place. Same with the proposed new building at Haymarket. Not at all suitable for it's location.

Yes Edinburgh needs to move with times and continue to grow as a modern 21st century city. But at what cost? Look at the state of Princes St for example. A mess. The St James Centre. What was done there in the 60's was a disgrace. The same at George Square. How "educated" people could allow the destruction of a superb Georgian Square and allow the construction of that monsrosity Appleton Tower is beyond me.
34

Buttress,

07/07/2008 10:21:07
The proposed replacemt for the St James' Centre requires very careful thought. The propsals so far (Allan Murray again...) aren't high quality, and the suggestion being bandied about for a Gherkin shaped tower plonked on the top of it could only have been made by a plonker.
35

Buttress,

07/07/2008 10:27:33
The Management Plan, map etc for the World Heritage Site (agreed with by the Council and HS, incredibly) is available to read here:

http://www.ewht.org.uk/Management-Plan.aspx

36

seanie,

07/07/2008 10:43:53
The Parliament's location is excellent and is inseperable from the building itself. The response to context and connection to the landscape is fundamental to the design itself.
37

Martin Hetherington,

07/07/2008 10:49:11
The Haymarket development should never have been allowed to go ahead. And I fail to understand why Richard Murphy wants to erect what appears to be a futuristic garden shed in a Georgian terrace. Except as an excercise in self-aggrandisement, perhaps.
38

Seb,

07/07/2008 10:50:10
Is there any contemporary architecture in Edinburgh that its citizens like?
39

Buttress,

07/07/2008 10:50:17
39 - I agree. Shame Murphy's proposals aren't of that quality.

Well, the UNESCO visit isn't unexpected - but very welcome.
40

Buttress,

07/07/2008 10:54:25
38 - it's happening. Belive it. ICOMOS-UK sent a report to the international committee, meeting in Canada now. UNESCO is coming and I don't think it will like what it sees.

Look at what is happening at Dresden Elbe Valley. UNESCO voted last week for it to remain on the In Danger list, but it will be deleted from the World Heritage list in 2009 if the bridge goes ahead.
41

seanie,

07/07/2008 10:56:47
Murphy is a very good architect. He's done a number of excellent modern buildings; intelligent, richly layered, contextually sensitive and sensual.
42

Seb,

07/07/2008 10:58:36
What I like:

Scottish Provident Building on St Andrew Square
Scottish Parliament
School of Informatics
Festival Theatre
Argyle House
Sillitto House...
43

Buttress,

07/07/2008 11:05:00
44 Shame he's so arrogant though. As with Murray. Who isn't a great architect. Nor is Malcolm Cooper.

44

Seb,

07/07/2008 11:05:31
Murphy's Dublin St Colonies, the multiple Mews, High Street and Fishamrket Close housing are all pretty successful. The House for Hart Street seems no more innapropriate than the Steel House across the road, and the 'monastery' itself is a bit of backland development that destroyed garden/trees. Hart St is hardly a premier New Town street, the later mansard roofs are pretty hideous and I think this proposal would lift the street a little.
45

ScottB,

Edinburgh 07/07/2008 11:08:16
I lived on Hart St till recently and I cant see why 'residents' would be so up in arms about this but not the steel house that is opposite this proposal? You cant really object to this for somehow destroying the georgian look of the street when there is already a building that if anything stands out even more than this one would.

And Unesco investigating the St James redevelopment? Surely theyd be leading the cheers for tearing that monstrosity down!
46

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 07/07/2008 11:15:33
Murphy is an obsessive iconoclast. This is the man who destroyed John Muir's historic birthplace in Dunbar - a classic vernacular building of 1725AD; Murphy gutted all three floors of this house, ripped out the entire interior structure - and replaced them with a high-tech glass and steel free-standing tower. The result is an educational disaster - an echoing stone box with a tiny TV screen that allows three people to sit in a tiny cubicle. The previous museum had aan AV room where teachers could seat 15 pupils in front of a very good AV setup to watch a 20 minute documentary. Murphy's first comment when asked to re-design the Muir house was to suggest razing it to the ground and building a high-tech 'revolutionary' education centre. Murphy's other buildings reveal the overweening ego of this attention seeking idiot - as well as the poverty of any real talent.
47

Buttress,

07/07/2008 11:21:22
It might stop Caltongate going ahead... you never know... at least in its present form. World Heritage information is available via the UNESCO site, alongside international charters etc about those.

48

Leila,

Edinburgh 07/07/2008 11:27:04
#48: yes, the Steel House. Not only would Mr Murphy's design dominate the street but also dominate the award-winning Steel House which is opposite (and quite a few people in the area do like the Steel House). However, as I said in my earlier comment, this isn't primarily about the design itself but about the principle of building anything at all on the site. And there are a few significant differences in the case of the Steel House:

It's much lower
It's built partly behind the pre-existing stone walls
It replaced a derelict plumbers' yard (NOT a garden)
49

AJ Fife,

07/07/2008 11:28:02
Recreating slums of the 16th and 17th centuries would be quite a task, so surely it's better for architects to establish a quality 21st century style within the heart of Edinburgh!

Poster #7 seems to hit the nail on the heid.
50

Neil,

Glasgow 07/07/2008 11:31:47
Does anybody think there is any possibility the bureaucrats at Unesco would actually give up the chance to administer the Heritage classification. It is the iron law that bureaucracies seek to expand not contract their power.
51

Martin Hetherington,

07/07/2008 11:44:24
Perhaps Mr Murphy and his fellow savants of the new barbarism should carry out their achitectural experiments in cities that have already been ruined by a combination of Luftwaffe bombing and the crappy, bogus ideologies of the 1960s and 1970s. There's plenty of space in cities such as London, Birmingham, Portsmouth and Southampton for 'obsessive iconoclasts' to vandalise- leaving World Heritage sites alone.
52

Buttress,

07/07/2008 11:45:14
53 - the problem is it isn't quality, it's poor and anyplace architecture (some of it very ugly indeed) and it will see the destruction of listed buildings. Of course it needs a quality development of our time and with some idea of the historic context. This isn't it. Also, we are, as a nation, signed up to international agreements - which seem to have been ignored.

www.eh8.org.uk and also the linked blog has regular updates.
53

Buttress,

07/07/2008 11:46:05
Neil - do some researach before spouting.
54

Daveunderwater,

Auld Reekie 07/07/2008 11:48:24
Didn't Labour choose the site and design of the new Scottish Parliament, I wonder what UNESCO will make of that and the new development and building which are already established at Leith Docklands

Hmmm
55

Daveunderwater,

Royal Mile 07/07/2008 11:50:19
# 53

Try the Queen Margaret's Close Tour, you can walk through the slums which are still there after all these years.
56

seanie,

07/07/2008 11:54:50
Internationally, the critical response to the Scottish Parliament has been overwhelmingly positive. Architecturally it's seen as a very fine design.
57

Daveunderwater,

Greyfriar's Bobby Monument 07/07/2008 11:54:57
I was once asked by a tourist from North America on Princes Street,"Do they build the castle, just for the Festival every year?"
58

Buttress,

07/07/2008 11:55:33
Of course, there is still the question of whether or not the council can sell to Mountgrange the listed Canongate School, (for demolition) and other land outside the original bus depot site which it owns, as these have not been offered for sale on the open market. A recent EU ruling stated such a deal was illegal in another part of the country, so why not here?
59

Buttress,

07/07/2008 11:57:34
I agree re the Parliament. But Caltongate (and indeed the Haymarket hotel) is NOT of that quality.
60

Daveunderwater,

07/07/2008 11:57:48
# 60

But does it really compliment nearby Holyrood Palace?

Come to think on it you could say the same for Dynamic Earth, where else can you see a building shaped like a Circus near a Palace?
61

seanie,

07/07/2008 11:59:13
Caltongate isn't. Nor is it particularly dreadful. Mostly it's bland, anodyne stuff.
62

Billy the Fish,

Edinburgh 07/07/2008 11:59:29

Surely now the Scottish Government must step in to reduce the height of the crazy 17 storey skyscraper monster that is being planned for Haymarket.
63

seanie,

07/07/2008 12:04:15
Holyrood Palace had considerable historical value but architecturally isn't all that special. Dynamic Earth is perfectly pleasant but again it's not outstanding.

The Parliament is highly contextual, although the language may admittedly be a bit difficult to read.And it really is a very fine, if maybe a little flawed, building.

64

Buttress,

07/07/2008 12:05:21
It is indeed bland - with parts of it ugly - and some of it very destructive. Edinburgh could do better - what it needs is a world class masterplan architect(s) for such an important site in a WH city. It's been far too much about making a fast buck, and the council has fallen for it.
65

Buttress,

07/07/2008 12:06:46
67 - agree with all you say about the Parliament. Future generations will understand I hope. It wiil last.
66

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 07/07/2008 12:07:15
Same old, same old.

Most modern "architects" and nearly all developers RUIN everything.

They should have to live in the monstrosities they "create".
67

John'sLittleBit,

Edinburgh 07/07/2008 12:09:11
It's always fun to read the comments, but less fun when seem some folks attitudes.

You see, my flat has the garden behind Murphy's proposed new house. We liked the idea of a home with a garden and in the city center as we were planning a family.

It wasn't ideal, the garden was surrounded by tall buildings on three sides and north facing, but still it was green and there were 2 really nice, big trees there.

Now, of course, some sod comes along and wants to build a house on the remaining side. Worse than that, the house will appear to us a three story tall blank wall (planning permission wouldn't allow them to overlook us after all).

So, yet another green bit of the city is to be turned into a dark trench that will need to be tarred over as nothing will grow. What an improvement.

I suppose that we should've remained in Glasgow, they've already built over everything that they can there.

Cheers,
John

PS We now have a lovely 8 month old girl.
68

Buttress,

07/07/2008 12:27:58
It hasn't got permission yet.
69

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 07/07/2008 12:30:33
#71 I am sorry for your plight. It sounds terrible - typical of the sort of crass planning decisions that our good-for-nothing ill-educated and often blatantly lying and cheating planners come up with.

Here at Loch Ness the Chamber of Commerce has come up with a neat ruse: apply to make Loch Ness a World Heritage Site. Funny then how some of the leading business people involved in "saving our environment" are busy behind the scenes lumping in planning applications to build huge new houses and hotels based upon the speculation that the application will succeed, thereby shutting the door on future development and hugely boosting the value of their hideous new properties.
70

Buttress,

07/07/2008 12:33:39
But WHS staus doesn't shut the door, as long as the 'universal values' for which each site is inscribed are respected.


71

Rap,

Haymarket 07/07/2008 12:33:56
Is Richard Murphy leading a one-man egotistical campaign to change the face of Edinburgh with his "iconic" structures? Thank God he's not doing Donaldson's if Quartermile is anything to go by or this proposal for his own house .
72

Buttress,

07/07/2008 12:37:58
http://independentrepublicofthecanongate.blogspot.com/2008/07/edinburgh-under-investigation.html
73

Seb,

07/07/2008 12:43:50
#75
Don't think Richard would describe his buildings as iconic, nor has any of his work appeared at Quartermile yet. Can't say the Yeoman McAlister is up to the job at Donaldsons - it should have been gifted to the National galleries for the D'Offay collection anyway.
74

Buttress,

07/07/2008 12:45:34
I seem to reacall the Hamraket Tower is being described as 'iconic'. But maybe that's by the developer.

'Nasty' is my best description.
75

Macuistean,

Isle of Tiree 07/07/2008 12:47:49
It's because they built the castle too close to the railway station but the Yanks are pleased because it helps to "do" Edinburgh in less than a day.
76

Seb,

07/07/2008 12:50:07
I might describe the St James Centre as 'nasty', but i really cant get my knickers in such a twist over the Morrison St building. The Hart St proposals certainly doesn't damage the values of Hart Street.
77

Buttress,

07/07/2008 12:51:02
It's about blocking views and skylines.

78

Rap,

Haymarket 07/07/2008 12:52:56
Seb,
I've been in a room where Murphy did refer to the Tiger Towers as iconic (when it was only 12 storeys as well), and also included it in the questionnaire used as part of the consultation process. It was something very poorly worded (ie to influence the response intentionally) such as "do you want an iconic gateway on the Haymarket car park site".
79

Buttress,

07/07/2008 12:56:44
What does perturb me is the ignorance of Cardownie. No, it's not usual for UNESCO to pay this sort of visit. It's not to admire the scenery.

80

Chrislovesbuffy1970,

Edinburgh 07/07/2008 12:57:13
Surely for a city to evolve, the types of development currently taking place in and planned for Edinburgh in future are steps in the right direction. For too long the Old and New Towns have been stuck in the past and I think it's exciting what has happened and continues to happen in Leith and the surrounding area. Hopefully the St James Centre can be rebuilt in a style befitting a modern, ambitious city and I fully support the Caltongate development, Quartermile and even what is happening with Springside/Haymarket. If these types of initiatives didn't exist then Edinburgh would be in real danger of becomming a very ordinary, staid place.
81

Buttress,

07/07/2008 13:05:49
The types of development don't need to happen. They aren't good, they could be so much better. Not the developer of Caltongate, are you? It's a very, very bad development.
82

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 07/07/2008 13:13:53
Edinburgh is a beautiful city and I am not sure whether "King Arthur's Seat" that has Edinburgh Castle on it is a World Heritage Site.

If not, why not? It rivals the splendour and beauty of the Acropolis in Greece.
83

Chrislovesbuffy1970,

Edinburgh 07/07/2008 13:16:20
I am not a developer of any kind, although I have just installed a new bathroom in my Southside flat. But seriously, look elsewhere for inspiration as to how development can improve major cities - Berlin, Paris, London, New York ... all of them are vibrant, exciting places and Edinburgh should have similar ambitions. I agree that the architectural designs should be of high quality, though.
84

Rosef,

FL 07/07/2008 13:18:28
I was just home for a visit and loved every minute of it until I walked down to the Palace and saw that monstrosity of a building they built for our government. How can people complain about a "Bookend" house being built in amongst Georgian buildings when they put that hideous thing next to the Palace? Mother Earth is a better looking building and even that doesn't really fit the area. The government building looks like a jigsaw puzzle who's pieces have been glued together even though they're in the wrong places.
85

Buttress,

07/07/2008 13:29:36
86 The castle is situated with the Old and New Towns World Heritage Site. It doesn't sit on King Arthur's Seat, though - or even Arthur's Seat.
86

Buttress,

07/07/2008 13:31:33
87 - you might be interested in reading this speech text:

http://www.ewht.org.uk/World-Heritage-Day.aspx

87

Baldred Neo-Bisset,

07/07/2008 13:34:14
#1 Edinburgh...Venice of the North?? I thought that was Amsterdam. Don't you mean Athens of the North?
88

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 07/07/2008 13:40:11
89 Buttress

I sit corrected - or is it "seated" corrected?

I should have known better. Had a late night and on my second cup of organic, fairtrade, shadegrown Columbian coffee. Maybe then my brain will switch on.
89

IainA,

Edinburgh 07/07/2008 13:50:47
The arrogance of modern architects is matched only by the arrogance of the council's planning department.

There isn't anything wrong with modern architecture and there isn't anything wrong with Georgian or Victorian architecture. Where it becomes wrong is when you try to either juxtapose modern with the others or design a building which is a pastiche of Victorian or Georgian.

That's when you get architects using phrases like "a juxtaposition of styles, the new and the old blending/clashing together in a harmoniously/dissonantly pleasing way"

The majority of us philistines don't appreciate the finer aesthetics of the clashing or the blending and we just wish that architects would pull their heads out of their ar**s and stop pretending to be artistes - with the accompanying hissy fits when they don't get their own way.

The finest of modern architecture can be very fine indeed, but there are very few architects who seem to be able to appreciate context i.e. where you plonk your splendid new building.

Put the new stuff in it's proper context - among other new stuff. Leave the mock Georgian and Victorian stuff to the suburbs where it is in context and enhances the area.

And for goodness sake, stop mucking about with old buildings when it's clear that ego and the modern trend of despising anything earlier than Bauhaus or Le Corbusier means that they are treated as eyesores to be demolished or tarted up to look more "interesting" - something that the majority of us disagree with profoundly.
90

World class concrete,

07/07/2008 13:51:13
Richard Murphy "has bought roughly half of a garden in the area for a £500,000 luxury home for himself".

He must be a very thick-skinned individual if he would be comfortable living somewhere he had already alienated other residents, by destroying a valued part of their neighbourhood in order to build his house.

This is a case of greed on the part of the person who sold him the land, and sheer egotism on the part of the architect who is clearly only doing it to win an award.
91

David55,

London 07/07/2008 13:56:29
I agree with post #1.

I own a flat in Abbeyhill. The canongate is like a ghost town at night and really needs this developments.

Who wants to live in a bloody museum.
92

Annoyingboi,

Edinburgh 07/07/2008 13:56:32
I've been saying for years that we are in danger of becoming like every other UK city and this is the proof of just that. If Edinburgh doesn't halt its continued obsession with building cr8p architecture, it is going to spiral into decline beyond belief!
93

Chrislovesbuffy1970,

07/07/2008 14:00:07
#90 - yes, good speech. However, not all of Edinburgh is 'beautiful', it has some very jaded parts scattered throughout the city and thankfully many of these areas are those earmarked for redevelopment, that I related to earlier. I'm not saying (as an example) build a high rise condo in the middle of Hollyrood, but simply improve areas that require it for the long term benefit of the city.
94

David55,

London 07/07/2008 14:01:03
I agree with post #1.

I own a flat in Abbeyhill. The Canongate is like a ghost town at night and really needs this development. Anyone who says the area doesn't need to be developed hasn't been down there for a while. Some kind of development needs to happen in that area to bring the place to life!

Who wants to live in a bloody museum?

95

Buttress,

07/07/2008 14:16:45
So any old commercial development will do? Not a a world class one, as befits a World Heritage Site?
96

yockel,

07/07/2008 14:24:09
#David55 - "Who wants to live in a bloody museum?"

You do, it's called the UK
97

mad moo,

edinburgh 07/07/2008 15:01:34
David55
you may 'own a flat in Abbeyhill but clearly do not LIVE in the Old Town or you would understand why it feels like a ghost town at times.
The Canongate does need development but does not need more unnecessary demolitions, holiday flats and luxuary flats for second homes.
The local community have never said they wanted NO development what is needed is appropriate development. More affordable family homes to allow the community to survive and residential population to grow, facilities to support young people, opportunities for start up business and training. All these could be provided if only the planners and councillors (and Ministers in Govt)actually listened to the needs of the citizens or took on board the reasons for so many objections.
With the economic climate on a downturn now is the time to stop flogging off council assets to developers whose only interest is to secure a consent, smash the place up and p**s off leaving a big hole twice the size of the old bus depot site.
The Caltongate plans are not economicly or environmentally sustainable.
98

,

07/07/2008 15:25:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
99

Buttress,

07/07/2008 15:46:22
Actually, look at those who voted this through at the planning meeting... headed by Coun Lowrie (who is also, amazingly, on the Board of Directors of Edinburgh World Heritage) and consider this was driven forward by the previous council. Dreadful, though, that this wasn't called in for inquiry.

http://independentrepublicofthecanongate.blogspot.com/2008/04/caltongate-calamity.html
100

Buttress,

07/07/2008 15:53:59
'The leader of the City of Edinburgh Council Jenny Dawe said: “Edinburgh has a rich architectural heritage and is proud of its city centre UNESCO World Heritage Site status. We do not want to see that status compromised”.'

Full speech here:

http://www.ewht.org.uk/World-Heritage-Day.aspx

101

Moriarty,

Edinburgh 07/07/2008 16:02:11
Richard Murphy, in his arrogant statements, displays no regard for the environment into which he wishes to insert his building; this boring old heritage site is a mere backdrop serving only to highlight his "award winning" house. Without Hart Street to clash against, the "award winning" house would be seen for what it is – an uninspired dated 'Ideal Home' vision of the future.
102

Buttress,

07/07/2008 16:06:06
Voting:

http://www.gardyloo.org/peepl_blame.html
103

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 07/07/2008 16:14:29
#84 Chris Loves Buffy:

"If these types of initiatives didn't exist then Edinburgh would be in real danger of becomming a very ordinary, staid place."

Who do you work for - Scottish Enterprise???
Edinburgh gained its World Heritage Status because of the unique architecture of the New Town and the Old Town. They will never, ever be considered 'ordinary'. In contrast, Dick Murphy's bland, re-hashed Japanese pot-pourris which he has scattered across Scotland - will be forgotten within a generation. Oh and by the way - he did not 'design' the Fruitmarket gallery - he re-fitted an existing building.

His Eastgate Arts Centre in Peebles is one of the worst bastardizations of en existing church that I have ever seen. Downright ugly and the worst of both worlds. The man is 'famous for trying to be famous' - not for his buildings, which look like bus-stations made from a cast iron lego kit.
104

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 07/07/2008 16:30:28
#95 Then move away to somewhere more appropriate for your seeming lack of culture and education.
105

Flash67,

Edinburgh 07/07/2008 16:58:58
Quite right - the city SHOULD be stripped of this status. Compared to many other cities, this place is a joke when it comes to conservation. Look at the state of Princes St. and the royal mile for examples. Compare this to Prague or Seville or Florence.... And as far as UNESCO goes, they are examining the St. James's Centre redevelopment? An outbreak of Zombie virus, followed by a nuking of the site would be an improvement here....
106

Chrislovesbuffy1970,

Edinburgh 07/07/2008 16:59:58
#107 Tweedmouth - no I don't work for Scottish Enterprise (or any developer). I am simply someone who lives and works in Edinburgh. So are you saying there should be no future developments to improve Edinburgh as a place to live, work or visit? Personally I love living here, however would like it even more if progress was actually embraced, rather than feared. This forum seems to be more about personal attacks on architects than a place for open, rational debate. You seem to suggest that I mentioned the Fruitmarket Gallery somewhere ... I didn't, but since you bring up the subject I like it as a building to look at and spend time in, so if that is an example of Dick Murphy work in any way, shape or form, then well done to him.
107

Flash67,

Edinburgh 07/07/2008 17:00:22
btw - #7 - best comment of the day!
108

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 07/07/2008 17:03:16
If they give Loch Ness UN World Heritage status that will be the final joke of the system:

Local businesses are falling over themselves just now to get in their planning applications for new big houses (hotels) before the listing so that they can then sell out and cash in.
109

Buttress,

07/07/2008 17:07:47
It's looking at the proposed REPLACEMENT for St James's Centre - which is BAD.

The city needs to develop - but with sensitivity and good design. Let's not have another St James's' Centre , simply beacue anything shiny and new is simply - shiny and new?

But if Allan Murray can attack, without much insight, as he did in the EEN not so long ago, then he can't complain.

And the Murphy Haymarket tower is crass.

110

Chrislovesbuffy1970,

Edinburgh 07/07/2008 17:10:39
#7 - exactly nailing the point. Princes Street is an absolute disgrace as a city centre of a major European city and has been for several years now. It should be a pleasure to walk on and around, when in fact it is functional at best for the most part with ugly architecture.
111

Buttress,

07/07/2008 17:18:07
I think the council has concerns too. But there's more to the WHS than Princes Street.
112

Old Town Resident,

edinburgh 07/07/2008 17:39:26
Good overview on Caltongate Caper
http://independentrepublicofthecanongate.blogspot.com/2008/04/caltongate-calamity.html
113

,

07/07/2008 17:42:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
114

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 07/07/2008 18:11:50
#117 I kid yee not. The application for a Loch Ness World Heritage status has been in for months. Answer due any day soon.

Mad, I know, but true. The local Chamber of Commerce renamed itself both Visitlochness and Destination Loch Ness and fronted the whole scam (sorry scheme).
115

Buttress,

07/07/2008 19:24:13
Bit on telly:

http://www.stv.tv/news/East_Central_Scotland/Council_claims_Edinburgh_Heritage_statu_080707185338250
116

Pilrig.,

Livingston 07/07/2008 20:05:24
45 - you like Argyll Hoose ???????????????????????????????????????????????
117

David55,

London 07/07/2008 20:10:26
#108 - Somewhere like Drumnadrochit?

You'll notice from my location that I have moved away but i'll be back sooner or later.

The site was previously a bus garage. Is that what passes for culture down your way? The flats that are scheduled to be demolished aint that old either. There is only one older building of any architectural worth, which is directly opposite the new council headquarters and looks completely out of place.

Hopefully by the time I get back, the development is completed and the trams are in.

You can't halt progress.
118

Pilrig.,

Livingston 07/07/2008 20:14:08
87 - what makes you think Embra is a major city ? Certainly not when it's run by diddies like Cardownie. Why the hell did the SNP accept this joker into their ranks ? Who's next to join up, Andrew Murphy, wee Don 'Caltongate' Anderson ?
119

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 07/07/2008 20:16:16
The Edinburgh tram system is a disgrace. It will go worse over budget than the Scottish Parliament building. You heard it here first.
120

Pilrig.,

Livingston 07/07/2008 20:16:24
91 - howzaboot 'Livi of the East' ? : )
121

Buttress,

07/07/2008 20:17:40
You can try to alter it for something better though. No, the listed Canongate School is fine, as are the tenements which are to be 'facaded'. Rather better than anything to be plonked on the 'Caltongate' development.
122

Pilrig.,

Livingston 07/07/2008 20:19:24
192 - Highland clueless
123

David55,

London 07/07/2008 20:22:19
#123 - That's often the way with large bespoke construction projects. Especially ones where lots of external earth works and services diversions are involved. In the long term the trams will be a great addition to the city.
124

Pilrig.,

Livingston 07/07/2008 20:22:28
121 - yes and hopefully the council have shifted those lower class johnnies out of the town centre, I mean what will the tourists think ?.....
125

,

07/07/2008 20:26:26
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
126

David55,

London 07/07/2008 20:26:57
128 - Would you have rather the bus drivers stayed in the bus station and they demolished it round them?

Apart from a tiny number of residents in the flats, who I have quite a bit of sympathy for, who are the 'lower class johnnies' the council are moving?
127

,

07/07/2008 20:28:00
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
128

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 07/07/2008 20:43:47
#131 Wake up. It's time to expose Islam for the hideous sham it is. It's followers need to grow up 600 years or so. Don't bother calling the police as Islam is NOT a race so I cannot be prosecuted for calling it the sick joke that it is. Just a tuppeny take-your-bit faith (superstition)) like the Mormon egit who found a few golden plates in his back yard.
129

Buttress,

07/07/2008 20:47:16
But what has this to do with Edinburgh World Heritage SIte?


130

danbob,

07/07/2008 22:06:28
Edinburgh is the most overrated city in the whole of the UK never mind Scotland. The shops are poor. The whole feel of the place is old and unfriendly. Apart from the castle its souless, even the castle has been spoilt by tacky gift shops selling fluffy nessies. Glasgow has a city centre, Edinburgh has an epicentre.
131

Buttress,

07/07/2008 22:13:05
It's one of the most beautiful and historic cities in the UK. Shops? Who cares.

132

MarkR,

USA 07/07/2008 22:20:53
What makes you people so insecure that you need foreigners to tell you that your city is a "World Heritage Site?" Can't you trust your own judgement? And you SNP types - how does giving some Euro-trash veto power over building regulations fit into an independent Scotland? Just askin'.
133

Buttress,

07/07/2008 22:33:41
You need some 'foreigners' as it's UNESCO - which is multi-national - to inscribe places on the list of World Heritage Sites, after being put forward by the national government. Such governments additionally agree to protect the sites.

None in the US I belive..
134

Buttress,

07/07/2008 22:36:02
Oh shucks - you too have them...

http://whc.unesco.org/en/statesparties/us


Now how about that.
135

Buttress,

07/07/2008 22:38:05
Hey - look here:

Statue of Liberty

Criteria: (i)(vi)
New York, New York
N40 41 22 W74 02 41
Ref: 307

Brief Description
Made in Paris by the French sculptor Bartholdi, in collaboration with Gustave Eiffel (who was responsible for the steel framework), this towering monument to liberty was a gift from France on the centenary of American independence in 1886. Standing at the entrance to New York Harbour, it has welcomed millions of immigrants to the United States ever since.

Well, what do you know... that's a World Heritage Site.

136

Kitti Kat,

PA 07/07/2008 23:14:32
As a freeeeequent visitor to Edinburgh, I agree with number 8. If the rape of Calton happens Edinburgh deserves to lose the World Heritage status.I love Edinburgh and feel sad that it's turning out to be nothing but a city with ugly buidings.
137

Pilrig.,

Livingston 07/07/2008 23:24:51
130 - moved. The residents of the Ark. Who don't fit in with the Caltongate scheme of things. As I've said before - the gentrification of the Auld Toon continues.
138

Pilrig.,

Livingston 07/07/2008 23:28:22
136 - considering you lot re-elected Dubya, it's a bit rich of you to criticize our judgement.
Opps sorry I forgot, we elected Blair thrice.
139

A Clamper,

Edinburgh 08/07/2008 12:36:25
The Hart Street shed will be ok if he manages to find a front door and some slates for the roof.
140

Lastsocialist,

Europe 08/07/2008 18:09:20
1- Fifi le Bonbon

Got it in one there. The New Town, like most of Edinburgh, is full of crusty 19th Century reactionaries. Edinburgh kids itself that's its a city, but anybody who has been to London, Paris, New York, Tokyo, Rome etc etc will know that that this is not the case. Murphy's design for Hart Street is excellent as are his Mews flats in Dublin Street Lane. To hell with tartan reactionaries and Jean Brodie retro-bourgeois, live in the twenty-first century for God's sake.
141

Buttress,

08/07/2008 19:12:37
Crusty 19th century reactionaries?

Do you really think people live so long in Embra? Must be all the alcohol. Prolongs life.

It is a city. Look up the definition.

142

World class concrete,

09/07/2008 09:57:38
#144 Lastsocialist: how rude of you, to categorise all residents of the New Town as "19th century reactionaries". And what makes you think there aren't plenty of socialists in the New Town? The inverted snobbery you display is not a nice trait.

Instead of name-calling the objectors, let's hear just why you think Mr Murphy's design is right for the location. I'd be surprised if you even know where it is.
143

Neale,

Edinburgh 09/07/2008 10:29:38
Good planning Mr Murphy! From your Hart Street lean-to you will not have to look out onto your Haymarket high rise mess.

The person who wears an ugly tie is at least spared having to look at it - the same with this development - but if it wins an award that seems to justify anything, really? Or just a trick to fool & flatter the Planning committee?
144

John'sLittleBit,

Edinburgh 09/07/2008 12:38:49
#144 Lastsocialist:

So you think that the heart of the pink triangle is "full of crusty 19th Century reactionaries". How quaint.

I suspect that you've probably misunderstood one of the costume parties in 'Club Ego' or 'The Street'.

John McC, Living next door in a basement flat.
145

Callum MacPherson,

Meadowbank 10/07/2008 19:05:17
Caltongate is simply not good enough for this unique part of the old town.

Whereas it must be tempting for Councillors under pressure to take the cash and investment for the city now, a long term view for developments in areas such as these must be taken.

The developers must go back to the drawing board.

The old properties they propose to demolish are the buildings that make Edinburgh the famously beautiful and historic city it is and that actually attract investment to the city themselves.

Once they are gone they can never ever be replaced.


 

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