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70% of Britons support devolution for Scotland, poll suggests

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Published Date: 08 May 2009
A TOTAL of 70% of people believe devolution has been good for Scotland, a new poll suggested today.
The survey was carried out in England, Wales and Scotland to coincide with the 10th anniversary of the elections to the Scottish Parliament.

The Times newspaper survey found 70% of people north of the border and 70% in England and Wales thought devolution had been good for Scotland.

However more people in Scotland said devolution had been bad for the country than those south of the border – with 18% of Scots expressing this view, compared with 7% in England and Wales.

Populus surveyed 911 people in England and Wales and 500 people in Scotland between April 29 and May 3.

It found that 65% of people in Scotland and 73% in England and Wales believed relationships between the two countries have not changed since before devolution a decade ago.

But about a quarter of those asked in Scotland said they thought relationships are worse, compared with 14% in England.

And 31% of people in England and Wales said they believed Scotland receives too much money from the UK, compared with 3% in Scotland.

The survey also suggested that 52% of people south of the border supported the idea of only English MPs being allowed to vote on English matters in the House of Commons, while 41% backed the idea of an English Parliament.

About four in 10 people surveyed in Scotland said they wanted the Scottish Parliament to have increased powers, short of full independence.

That compares with 21% who said they supported Scottish independence, and about a quarter of those asked said the believed the Scottish Parliament has the right level of powers and should retain them. Just 8% believe Holyrood should have fewer powers than it does now.

Deputy First Minister and SNP deputy leader Nicola Sturgeon said the poll results are a "resounding endorsement of the success of the Scottish Parliament, and the improvements it has delivered to Scotland's economy and society".

And she added: "With two thirds of Scots wanting independence or more powers, it is clear that the people of Scotland want to keep moving forward – so that the Parliament has the ability to deliver more – and that is also very encouraging."

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1

The west awake,

Argyll 08/05/2009 10:36:53
Scotland has come a very long way since I began voting SNP, and it is obvious the evolution is continuing.

It doesn't appear long before we will have our own country again.

I like that.
2

Salthorse,

Room wi a view 08/05/2009 10:42:50
Aye 70% North and South - time to hold that Referendum me thinks.

Furthermore the FM met with Scotland's Senior Defence Members this week to discuss enabling members of the Armed Forces in Scotland and Veterans to have a better quality of life, it was a positive affair, he was very statesman like and it went down well with The Forces.

Glad to see someone is carrying out their responsibilities with such aplomb!

SH
3

Colkitto,

River Clyde 08/05/2009 10:47:40
Quite a poorly conducted poll. Most conclusive polls are conducted by asking over 1000 people.
Only 500 were asked in Scotland. It also clumps England and Wales together for some reason, which is strange as I'm sure the Welsh will have differing views to that of the English living in a devolved country, and again only 911 all together were asked.

Perhaps they stopped asking when they got the result they were looking for......

4

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 08/05/2009 10:51:13
#2 Whilst I am unaware of this meeting I would be interested to know who Mr Salmond met and with whom it went down well.
5

Anndra Ailean,

08/05/2009 11:06:41
#2 Salthorse.
Couldn't agree with you more.
Ironically though when we throw off our shackles we will only be in need of a small coastal force.
6

Gtj,

08/05/2009 11:08:58
I think it would be selfish of us if we did not give England its Freedom.
7

nova albion,

08/05/2009 11:36:43
6. I think you are one arrogant tw-t. Londons GDP alone is higher than Scotland!
8

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 08/05/2009 11:41:04
Good poll result. Pity the sample size was not bigger.
9

,

08/05/2009 11:43:13
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10

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 08/05/2009 11:44:58
#7 nova albion

What level of GDP would you find acceptable before a country can have independence?
11

Me Bungo Pony,

Dundee 08/05/2009 11:46:29
# 6, Ignoring the abusive tone of your comment, what exactly is your point?
12

Me Bungo Pony,

Dundee 08/05/2009 11:47:20
Sorry #6. I was referring to #7 nova albion :(
13

Anndra Ailean,

08/05/2009 11:50:56
There was me thinking the population of London was about double that of Scotland
14

Alan B,

08/05/2009 11:54:23
#nova albion

And the uk gdp per capita ppp is lower than many of the small european countries.

In fact the gpdf per capita ppp is higher for most small western european countries than it is for the big 4 european countries of france, italy, germany and uk.

Lesson is small countries in north western europe tend to be richer than the big ones.
15

nova albion,

08/05/2009 11:54:46
12. What was abusive! just stating a fact.
16

smokey joe 1,

08/05/2009 11:57:54
15
Why are you not answering 10 Gregor Addison?
17

,

08/05/2009 11:58:14
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18

WL,

Livingston 08/05/2009 12:00:16
I hope that the English will open their eyes and demand devolution for England. Scotland, N.Ireland and Wales all have their own parliament, so when does England get its parliament. Westminster can deal with the remaining UK matters.
19

Me Bungo Pony,

Dundee 08/05/2009 12:05:24
It's hard to tell if "nova albion" is a Unionist or just anti-Scottish. Maybe both? Either way, he/she fulfils the criteria for disruptive troll.
20

nova albion,

08/05/2009 12:07:47
Nationalists are power hungry egotists who would happily lead the Scots to destruction if they could be in charge. Nationalism is powered by hate of the other, not by a desire to build.
21

kendomacaroonbar,

Bairdsville, Scotland 08/05/2009 12:13:56
No. 7

London's GDP is higher than Scotland - so what ?
London's expenditure is higher than Scotland
London's subsidy is higher than Scotland

and its also true that the further south one travels the denser the population
22

Walter Ego,

Durness 08/05/2009 12:14:44
1 The West Awake

When did you start voting SNP and what did you vote before?
23

The Master,

08/05/2009 12:16:03
I wouldn't argue with the statement that devolution has been good for Scotland, but the main fly in the ointment is that, as in Quebec and Catalonia, the SP has come to have a large contingent of Nationalist members (indeed, they now form a minority administration).

It's perhaps understandable that voters respond to their "Scotland uber alles" message, but I'm strongly of the opinion that voters are savvy enough to work out that the Nats' approach is in many ways counterproductive and that Scotland can best forward its interests by fully cooperating with other parts of an integral UK.
24

kendomacaroonbar,

Bairdsville 08/05/2009 12:17:26
No 20 Nova Albion -

You have so much anger...try throwing a nokia off the wall, it may help ?
25

smokey joe 1,

08/05/2009 12:17:51
19. On the subject "nova albion".
I think you are correct on both points and it is blatently obvious about the disruptive troll part.
A droll troll.
I wonder if he has the same veiws as that disgusting little no mark Starky from QT a couple of weeks ago.
Best to ignore the troll.

26

Brianwci,

08/05/2009 12:18:54
#3 Colkitto: "Perhaps they stopped asking when they got the result they were looking for......"

Agreed Colkitto. 500 is a very small sample and lumping England and Wales together is suspicious.

However, the main thrust is clear. Status quo no longer acceptable anywhere in the UK and any movement of any kind will be down the road towards Independence for all countries in the UK.

This is now being viewed as a sensible and non threatening alternative to the current situation.

Well done Salmond and the SNP Government.
27

nova albion,

08/05/2009 12:24:25
21.Mike Denham, a former Treasury economist and author of the report, said:

“The Barnett Formula has a troubled history and has failed to address the extremely unfair situation of English taxpayers heavily subsiding Scotland. Everyone is struggling to make ends meet, and it is long overdue for the Government to lift this burden from taxpayers’ shoulders. English taxpayers want an end to subsidising Scotland, and the Scottish Government wants financial control devolved to Holyrood, so now is the ideal time to consign the Barnett Formula to history.”
28

nova albion,

08/05/2009 12:29:55
Independence from what, exactly? Scots vote, send MPs and share economic power with the rest of us. What freedom are they lacking?
29

smokey joe 1,

08/05/2009 12:30:24
26.
Indeed, well done Alex Salmond.
30

Me Bungo Pony,

Dundee 08/05/2009 12:33:37
#20, Indie supporters want to see Scotland take responsibility for all the decisions that affect our country that any modern Independent country has the ability to do. We want to make sure they are made in Scotland, by the representatives of the Scotland's people (of all races and creeds) with Scotland's interests paramount. Not waiting around hoping Westminster gets round to it and doesn't do anything to Scotland's detriment .... whether we like it or not.

We want to see over a century (or more) of decline in our country's fortunes under the Union reversed. We want to see our economic growth match that of our small W. European neighbours instead of lagging behind that of the UK, which itself lags behind the aforementioned small neighbours. We want to see poverty reduced to that of our small W. European neighbours instead of being up to 10x higher under the Union. We want our country to have a dedicated seat at the highest international tables in the EU and UN etc. We want to "build" a more prosperous, fairer country. A country that will be a "good neighbour/friend" to England and not a peripheral economy of the UK.

All this is a positive image of our country's future. Not the hate filled nonsense you want to see. Frankly, your views say more about yourself than they do about the motives of Scottish Indie supporters. Perhaps you should take that on board.
31

Anndra Ailean,

08/05/2009 12:35:15
#18 WL.
There wouldn't have been a call for devolved government around the UK if we didn't all feel westminster wasn't already the English parliament
32

smokey joe 1,

08/05/2009 12:36:36
I wonder why westmidden doesn't want to break up the unequal union if we are such a burden to the English tax payer.
Weird that innit.
33

Stephen_Gash,

Carlisle England 08/05/2009 12:39:18
Quote: "Populus surveyed 911 people in England and Wales and 500 people in Scotland between April 29 and May 3."

So, Scots were over-represented yet again. Of course we all know that Scottish opinion is most important.

The proportion between England and Wales does not seem to be published.

If opinion is that the relationship between England and Scotland is unchanged by devolution, then why do we get stories by Scottish journalists about Scots being kicked out of taxis in London because Scotland is getting too much English money? Are these stories apocryphal?

I think not. In my experience most English people want to be shot of Scotland.
34

,

08/05/2009 12:40:22
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35

smokey joe 1,

08/05/2009 12:41:07
30 Me Bungo Pony,Dundee.
Excellent post.
Well said.

36

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 08/05/2009 12:41:53
Given the track record of the Scottish Government so far... Devolution??? No thanks!

Would you really like to unleash lunatics like Robison and MacAskill on Scotland without any form of restraint? I certainly wouldn't.

Once the SNP kick out their rubbish and start ignoring all the extremist pressure groups then I might have time for considering the prospect of devolution. Until then, in the words of Shep Wooley, Ram it!
37

Home Rule for England,

England 08/05/2009 12:57:11
52% of people south of the border want English Votes on English Matters and 41% want an English Parliament.
So 93% of English people want MPs who do not represent an English constituency to be excluded from English matters! WOW!
When do we English get our referendum?
38

Nik,

Embra 08/05/2009 13:00:58
#37

Um.... I think your maths skills leave a lot to desired.
39

The west awake,

Argyll 08/05/2009 13:01:07
Walter Ego 22 - I don't normally answer personal mails, but... I started voting Labour when I was in my teens/early 20s.
In those days (early 80s) the SNP hadn't reorganised themselves into the left of centre party they are now and, like a good working class boy I followed the family tradition of voting Labour without really questioning it deeply. In those days you just assumed the only party for West of Scotland working people was Labour.
The absolute disgrace and shame that was the "fighting 50" was my trigger to start questioning whether Labour were indeed good for Scotland, this was re-enforced by the SNPs shift to the left.
Once broken from the mental mould of "monkey with red rosette will do" (and often did), I have never looked back. I am no apparachik and often disagree with the SNP, but the longer time goes on the more attractive and realistic Independence becomes.

- Not an unusual tale, I'm sure.

How about you?
40

nova albion,

08/05/2009 13:03:05
33. Not so much a case of "getting shot" more a case of equal rights! Why should we in England pay for free prescriptions,free elderly care, in scotland when we are paying through the nose for these services in England. LAST YEAR OVER 70 CANCER PATIENTS DIED IN ENGLAND! why, because,unlike scotland we did not have the drugs on the NHS to treat them. It's about time the whole of the UK treated it's citizens the same,if this means giving England it's own parliament,so be it.
41

john z,

edinburgh 08/05/2009 13:03:32
QUOTE: "..while 41% backed the idea of an English Parliament."

There already IS an english parliament, and has been for over three hundred years. It's called Westminster.
42

,

08/05/2009 13:24:01
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43

Proghead,

Embra 08/05/2009 13:25:08
A touch of the ' my country right or wrong ' from both sides of the argument here. In principle, the Union is a good idea, but in practice it seems to favour one side more than another. Which side that is is subjective, depending on your viewpoint. Similarly Independence, in principle, is an attractive proposition from both sides again. The problem with all of this is the mediocrity of the elected representatives we would have to live with. Much easier to go to the pub...............
44

Geoff,

sa 08/05/2009 13:25:49
This is far too small a sample from which to draw any conclusions.
41 Lohn Z-Westminster is the UK parliament. England has no parliament of its own.

45

nova albion,

08/05/2009 13:29:35
41. LOL! filled with scots,who confirm they will put Scotland formost in all their actions.
46

Geoff,

sa 08/05/2009 13:31:11
43 Proghead-great post-nail on head! The Union needs to be revised not scrapped. The devolution project is a half baked mess. Each home Nation needs its own Parliament with equal powers. Westminster can and must be reconstituted as a British parliament that deals with UK wide issues. The problem of "English Dominance" can be dealt with satisfactorily. Other Unions-notably the USA and EU deal with large power/population differences between states in a satisfactory manner.
47

Alan B,

08/05/2009 13:33:01
#40 nova albion

You are abit all over the place with your views. You seem to be an english man that does not want scotland to be independent, but are not from here or live here to understand the problems and issues, but is not happly with england place within the union.

"Why should we in England pay for free prescriptions,free elderly care,"

England should have a parliament of its own if it wants one. But the reason england does not have free prescriptions and care etc is because westminster which is dominated by english mps due to the sheer population size of england in comparison to wales and scotland did not vote for it. England is a more right wing country and votes for more right wing parties. eg the labour party had to move significanly to the right to get elected in england.

It is also due to england spending its money on different things. Different priorities.

Scotland may have drugs more readily available but england prioritised waiting lists and have shorter lists. So if you do not die waiting to see a doctor in scotland you may get a drug that could help. While in england you see a doctor more quickly who can tell you he could have helped you if he could have prescriped a certain drug.

More seriously england for instance jail people for longer and pay more accordingly as jail time is very expensive. So it all about priorities.
48

The west awake,

Argyll 08/05/2009 13:36:30
Nova 40 - You appear to be very vague about the constitutional arrangments between Scotland and England and, like many English unfortunately, display a fairly astonishing attitude toward England's place among the UK nations. I am assuming you are young btw.
England doesn't "pay" for those services in Scotland you mention. We are not some wee laddie earning English pocket money. Put extremely simply, the way the Scottish Government gets its money is by block grant from Westminster, this isn't some kind of "wages" etc but represents what is returned to Scotland from what Scotland produces minus what Westminster keeps back. As certain functions have been devolved to Scotland the block grant is given to enable the Scottish Government to pay for them.
So - if anyone should feel aggrieved in this arrangement, who should it be? We Scots, who have no power and can only argue for more of our money back from England, or England, who can say Yes or No as it thinks fit.
49

Stephen_Gash,

Carlisle England 08/05/2009 13:36:33
@ #38 Nik,Embra
The point Homeruleforengland was making is that the report does not make it clear, so why should we trust the figures? How many support an English Parliament, how many support English votes on English laws, how many support either?

@ #41
We have an English Parliament, so Populus conducted a stupid poll asking if people wanted an English Parliament. That logic is worthy of a Britisher like Gordon Brown.
50

,

08/05/2009 13:41:06
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51

Stephen_Gash,

Carlisle England 08/05/2009 13:51:41
@ #47 AlanB Quote: "It is also due to england spending its money on different things. Different priorities.
Scotland may have drugs more readily available but england prioritised waiting lists and have shorter lists. "
The Welsh have free prescriptions, but still they whine about being put at the bottom of waiting lists for treatment in English hospitals. Scottish ambualances fill Carlisle hospitals car park, are they on the same waiting lists as English patients?
Gordon Brown crowed about English cancer patients getting free prescriptions knowing that they are denied the drugs so that they are getting nothing for nothing. And this obnoxious man has the audacity to talk about 'fairness'.
You response is typical of the Scots. I've not heard one Scot come out and say the English are getting a bad deal. Rather than say it is a disgrace that English patients are expected to die, but still pay for Scottish benefits while still alive, they carp on about Thatcher.
"Two wrongs make a right" and "revenge is sweet" is the Scottish mentality, even if your assertions about the Thatcher years are correct, which they are not.
With friends like the Scots the English don't need enemies.
If you want revenge on England, you have a choice of parties to vote for, Labour, Lib Dems or Tories. All will put Scotland before England, just as Thatcher did, as reported in "The Scotsman".
We expect Scots to vote for these parties. Even if, against the odds, Scots vote SNP, the last thing that party will do is go for independence. An even fatter outstretched hand will land firmly on the table demanding to be filled with English money.
52

The west awake,

Argyll 08/05/2009 13:55:36
Geoff "The problem of "English Dominance" can be dealt with satisfactorily."

- Really?

How can a Union be set up where England has 50m, Scotland has 5m. Wales has 3m and NI 2m and England NOT be dominant?

Indeed why would the English be interested in such a set up if they were NOT dominant?

How would you achieve this?
53

Alan B,

08/05/2009 13:57:30
#Geoff

The problem is how you would revise and what advantage it would have. And also how it is workable to have all parliaments with the same levels of powers.

One solution would be a federalised uk with england split into say 7 regions. Problem is england does not want it. England lets face it like the old very centralised uk dominated by england.

England has had not desire to move to a federal arrangement like Australia, Germany, US and others, but liked its french like centralisation.

Alternatively you have 4 parliaments for each country and a small centralised one.

Ok so what powers are better pulled?

And given the growth of the EU has a uk union not become outdated. Why no just independent members of the EU union. Is it not silly to have a uk union only for it to be a single member of the eu union.

If i was looking for the powers i would like for the sp. I would start with fiscal autonomy, then devolve social security system as it needs integration with the tax system, then other things from all legal issues rather than the mess of the moment (a good idea given the separate legal systems). Also fully devolve transport etc. I would also like devolution of economic issues like currency so we are free to join the euro if in our economic interest and competition policy etc.

For the EU i like the single market, the free movement of people, the common currency etc and believe it should have a role round defence and foreign policy.

So what issues should be decided at UK level? Could have some sort of defence union but i cannot see much beyond that. And do you really need a full political union for that. NATO is a defence union with not political union.

Even if we were to have a uk union i think it would be better for each country to be a member of the eu union in its own right.

You also talk of equal powers. Problem for maybe wales who share englands legal system. Similar for education where they do not have a separate education sy
54

Alan B,

08/05/2009 13:57:46
...
You also talk of equal powers. Problem for maybe wales who share englands legal system. Similar for education where they do not have a separate education system. So it is clear wales may want differnet powers to sp different from NI.

If you alternatively were to federalise england would they really want different legal and educational systems in different regions.
55

Nik,

Embra 08/05/2009 14:05:11
#49

The figures in the article are perfectly understandable to me. I was just being pedantic :)
56

,

08/05/2009 14:05:14
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57

Me Bungo Pony,

Dundee 08/05/2009 14:08:29
#51 "Steven_Gash", it is not English taxpayers money being handed over to Scots. It is Scottish revenue being handed back to Scotland. According to UK Treasury figures (prior to the massive bubble in NS Oil revenues) Scotland made up 8.5% of the UK popln, received 9.3% of UK expenditure (small popln/large country) but contributed 10.2% of UK revenue. England is NOT subsidising Scotland.
58

nova albion,

08/05/2009 14:11:54
47/48. The TaxPayers' Alliance (TPA) presents a new and comprehensive study of the Barnett Formula, the Government system used to calculate the distribution of public spending between the four countries of the UK, that reveals the staggering cost to taxpayers of the spending gap between England and the three better-funded devolved territories (Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland). KEY FINDINGS. * Identifiable public spending per head in England is £7,535 pa (2007-08). But in Scotland it is 22 per cent (£1,644) higher, Wales 14 per cent (£1,042) higher, and Northern Ireland an extraordinary 30 per cent (£2,254) higher.
* Just over the last two decades (since 1985-86), higher spending in the three devolved territories has cost UK taxpayers a cumulative £200 billion (£102 billion in Scotland; £43 billion in Wales; £57 billion in Northern Ireland).
* North Sea Oil has not funded the Scottish spending gap, despite Scottish Nationalist claims to the contrary. In only five of the last 23 years have North Sea Oil receipts exceeded the cost of higher funding paid to Scotland. Even with current high oil prices, the income from the Scottish share of North Sea Oil only just covers the spending gap, and North Sea Oil output is projected to fall by 50 per cent by 2020.
59

Stuntman Mike,

08/05/2009 14:13:06
#39 The west awake: " In those days (early 80s) the SNP hadn't reorganised themselves into the left of centre party they are now"

What planet are you living on? Are you referring to the "left of centre" party whose leader wants to create a free market utopia in a pro business separatist Scotland. If I may quote Supernat before the credit crunch:

“We are pledging a light-touch regulation suitable to a Scottish financial sector with its outstanding reputation for probity, as opposed to one like that in the UK, which absorbs huge amounts of management time in ‘gold-plated' regulation.”
60

Alan B,

08/05/2009 14:13:50
#Stephen_Gash

I am happy for england to have their own parliament if they wish. England dominates westminser due to it size so it is up to england to decide what it wants.

I am concerned with scotland poor deal out the union.

As i said the reason england do not get free prescriptions is due to the english dominated parliament not wanting it. Wanting either lower taxation or different spending priorities. (i personally do not support free prescriptions).

You response is typical of an english view. It was ok when england dominate and england decides what scotland and wales get even when they reject that party at the ballot box. But as soon as scotland votes to spend the same money as it was getting pre devolution then in a different way to england then moan. As if scotland should be spending on priorities decided by england. It is that sheer arrogance that p*sses scotland off.

I support fiscal autonomy (actuall would go for full independence) for scotland where scotland raises and spends its own taxation and england the same.

I personally think it would be beneficial for england to federalise to stop the north south divide but england does not want that and i do not think it is for me a scot to say how england should be governed.

61

Alan B,

08/05/2009 14:35:10
#Stuntman Mike

I think the problem is what is a left of centre government and what is a right of centre one.

In economic terms left wing was traditionally socialist ie the state owning industry and the means of production.

Right was capitalist.

Now all the main parties are capitalist. All are effectively right wing parties from a traditional sense.

However capitalist parties that a higher tax raising tend to see themselves as social democratic and see themselves as centre left. But the truth is politics has become more progressive and clear differences of left and right are abit obsolete. ie some parties will be leftish on one issue and rightish on another.

Traditionally those for universal benefits were seens as being leftish and those that support means testing rightish. As such the snp are more left wing on that issue than labour as labour has reversed its support for universal benefits. But other issues will see the snp to the right of labour.
62

Me Bungo Pony,

Dundee 08/05/2009 14:45:59
#58 "nova albion", the TaxPayers' Alliance (TPA) is a minority right wing group who represent no-ones views but their own and are never slow to moan about anything and everything. In the age old saying; "they know the cost of everything and the value of nothing". I wouldn't trust a word they said.

The spending figures are also skewed. You will find regions of England like Northumbria are equally favoured. The fact that Scotland has a higher spend per head than England, despite only getting about 90% of it's revenue back as expenditure, only illustrates how easily Scotland could manage on it's own.

The spend per head in Scotland is also explained by the fact we have a small popln in a large country. In order to provide the same service to each citizen it will inevitably cost more to provide it in a sparsely populated country like Scotland than a densley populated one like England. Do you believe Scots should have poorer service provision within the UK simply because we have a smaller population? And subsequently, should Scots have to hand over more of our revenue for this poorer service just to satisfy you and the TPA?
63

redcliffe62,

08/05/2009 14:49:14
had 70% said they wanted england to have its own parliament that might have been newsworthy.
the opinion of a small cross section of english and perhaps welsh people who may have heard of salmond, know no-one else and have no idea what is devolved is really of no concern to me. o am interested in the results of people in scotland who at least understand the concept and who understand a little more.
although with the exception of salmond and sturgeon i fear only a few could name more than 1 or 2 other ministers and what they do.
64

Stuntman Mike,

08/05/2009 14:51:34
You Nats and your separation policy are becoming increasingly farcical. The next wave of the downturn may involve countries rather than banks going under and Ireland (your oft cited template for a separatist Scotland) is the number one candidate for this.
65

english_republic,

England 08/05/2009 15:03:50
To the Scottish Nationalists complaining that the UK parliament is "English dominated" look at the population figures and tell me this wouldn't be justified if it were true.

In reality, Scotland has a disproportionately high number of Mps for its population, has its own parliament, has a First Minister and a Secretary of State. The Prime Minister is Scottish, the Chancellor is Scottish and Scots MPs regularly vote and swing decisions on English-only matters. The Prime Minister can't even say "England", choosing instead "this country" or even outright lying with "Britain" to avoid people realising what a farce it is that most of his policies don't even apply to his own constituents.

Any proper Scottish Nationalist, rather than some of the petty England haters on here, should be trying to help the few English people who understand these injustices spread the message around England. Once the English start questioning the Union it's finished.
66

bluepict,

08/05/2009 15:04:10
Very well said #34
67

Me Bungo Pony,

Dundee 08/05/2009 15:04:11
Considering Baron Foulkes and his Unionist ilk are forever claiming Indie supporters post offensive remarks on these threads, the measured and informative tone of their posts on this thread contrasts remarkebly with the angry and abusive tone of their Unionist counterparts. Having said that, generally speaking, it has always been thus :)
68

The west awake,

Argyll 08/05/2009 15:07:00
Stuntman - I am referring to the party who are;
Against the Iraq war
Want to replace the Tory/Labour Council Tax with an income based tax.
Against Trident replacement and nuclear weapons of mass destruction
Against new Nuclear power
Against ID cards
Lowering class sizes
Free education
Will implement free school meals
Saved local hospitals

I could go on, but can't be bothered.

Sounds like left of centre to me, and as it is coupled with sensible policies aimed at encouraging Scottish businesses so that we can pay for all this I would suggest places me firmly on Planet Earth.
You?

69

Stephen_Gash,

Carlisle England 08/05/2009 15:14:08
@ AlanB You say my opinion is typically English. If so then Scotland would have no trouble being independent if the English were asked. That's the trouble, we are not asked. Even when a few of us are asked, as in Northumberland and Durham, about regional assemblies, their answered is not only ignored, but treated with contempt.

Whatever Scots say about the pre-devolution situation, it was MPs in England that made sure Scots had a referendum on a parliament. What we see now is
Scottish MPs denying the English a referendum. Never mind about what MPs in England are doing and that they form the majority. If Scots had any notion of fair play, Scottish MPs would be pushing for the English to be treated fairly. They aren't.

Scottish MPs have the smallest workload, yet they are paid the same as English MPs. Their workload is smaller because they have no say on Scotland's domestic policies.

That's why Scottish MPs don't want fair play for the English. An English Parliament would halt their gravy train. I would say that their stance is typically Scottish.

Scots object to being called 'subsidy junkies' but their MPs are stereotypical Macakeneatit Scots.
70

Scottish Toryboy is back,

08/05/2009 15:17:51
#67 Me Bugo Pony: " Considering Baron Foulkes and his Unionist ilk are forever claiming Indie supporters post offensive remarks on these threads, the measured and informative tone of their posts on this thread contrasts remarkebly with the angry and abusive tone of their Unionist counterparts. Having said that, generally speaking, it has always been thus :)"

Has it ever occurred to you, Bungo, that the reason for this is that many Nationalist posts are so out of order that they have to be deleted, and their originators' monikers banned, shortly after they appear.

If you don't believe me, compare the Nationalist fuelled bile of "the Black Douglas" (oh dear, you can't, because most of them have had to be removed already!)
71

The west awake,

Argyll 08/05/2009 15:17:58
65 English Republic - While I wish you success, i would suggest it would not be sensible for us to try to help each other in our respective campaigns. What England does is for England to decide, not us.
Scottish Independence will happen once we secure a referendum and get the mandate of the Scottish people. If/when we achieve this England will have no option to stop us, indeed I truly believe would not want to.

Best of luck.
72

Me Bungo Pony,

Dundee 08/05/2009 15:18:48
#65 "english_republic" wrote;
"To the Scottish Nationalists complaining that the UK parliament is "English dominated" look at the population figures and tell me this wouldn't be justified if it were true."
----
It is justified and it is true. It is because of this we believe Scotland would be best served as an Independent country making it's own decisions for itself. Scottish issues were only addressed for one hour a month under the old system. I would prefer all decisions that effect us to be discussed all day, every day with Scotland's perspective paramount.

#65 "english_republic" wrote;
"The Prime Minister can't even say "England", choosing instead "this country" or even outright lying with "Britain" to avoid people realising what a farce it is that most of his policies don't even apply to his own constituents."
----
I can understand your frustration. When he means England he should say England. It's not always that simple though. Sometimes he is referring to England and Wales and sometimes the whole UK. Very confusing. Better if Scotland went it's own way and reduced the confusion :)

#65 "english_republic" wrote;
"Any proper Scottish Nationalist, rather than some of the petty England haters on here ...."
----
What evidence do you have that any Indie supporter on this thread "hates" England? You make fair points in your post but ruin it by this kind of reflex abuse. There's no need for it.
73

,

08/05/2009 15:20:35
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74

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 08/05/2009 15:22:58
Me Bungo Pony,Dundee 08/05/2009 12:33:37

"Indie supporters want to see Scotland take responsibility for all the decisions that affect our country that any modern Independent country has the ability to do. We want to make sure they are made in Scotland, by the representatives of Scotland's people (of all races and creeds) with Scotland's interests paramount."

I would recommend that your words be used as the first paragraph in any future "Declaration of Scottish Independence".

Excellent post.
75

Me Bungo Pony,

Dundee 08/05/2009 15:28:13
#70 "Scottish Tory Boy" wrote;
"Has it ever occurred to you, Bungo, that the reason for this is that many Nationalist posts are so out of order that they have to be deleted, and their originators' monikers banned, shortly after they appear."
----
I've always found the majority of deleted posts originate from the Unionist side of the debate (despite them being the minority of posters). They were incredibly offensive, rarely addressed the subject at hand (preferring personal attacks) and bore little relation to the truth. The best example was the old Herald Threads. They were getting as bad as this Forum at one time and the Herald decided to screen each contribution before it was posted. The offensive stuff disappeared overnight .... as did the overwhelming majority of Unionist posters. The Indies were still around though :)
76

,

08/05/2009 15:28:50
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
77

Mèths,

Counting on his fingers to make sure 08/05/2009 15:31:58
Colkitto

"Quite a poorly conducted poll. Most conclusive polls are conducted by asking over 1000 people."

That's why this poll asked 1,411.

"Populus surveyed 911 people in England and Wales and 500 people in Scotland between April 29 and May 3."

Big riddy no?
78

Mèths,

08/05/2009 15:35:02
20 nova albion "but it's really kimba"

LOL. As usual, kimba comes here and quotes other people without reference. If you want to read the rest of this stolen quote, you'll find it on "Yahoo Answers"


http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081024054012AA9EBN4

Get away ya big diddy.
79

,

08/05/2009 15:35:56
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Reason:
80

The Dark Side,

08/05/2009 15:49:47
#78 Methalions: where have you been all these months? You were one of the very few Nats we had any time for before you did a "cyber Lucan".
81

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 08/05/2009 15:54:18
Mèths,08/05/2009 15:35:02

Well done,

The words are verbatim by the plagiarist, nova albion - AKA - kimba.
82

Mèths,

08/05/2009 15:54:26
80

I had to change names following a bit of a ban.
83

Geoff,

sa 08/05/2009 15:56:23
52 the West Awake and 53 Alan B.

Devolution Max would take care of many of the problems that currently bedevil the Union including spats about who owes/pays what.It would also largely address the problem of English dominance-real or perceived. A federal UK could leave Defence,Foreign Affairs,the Environment and other matters where it made sense to pool the risks and rewards in an economy of scale. The EU has shown itself to be very ineffective in for example the fields of defence and foreign affairs so i do not see this as being a substitute for the UK
Alan B-your posts are well thought out and well reasoned. If the issue of Scottish Independence and the end of Union were only a matter of the head then your comments make perfect sense. In a way the EU may very well creep into our consciousness as an alternative identity, though at present I doubt whether anybody feels any sense of patriotism toward Europe at present. The crux of the matter is that for most ScotNats and BritNats it really is a heart thing-good cases can be made for and against the Union but in general they are presented to bolster our respective causes-not to change hearts and minds.

Incidentally you have no doubt heard that for the first time in 30 years the Basque country now has a non-nationalist administration. Also-Quo Vadis Quebec?
It would seem that these identity problems fester on in many parts of the world-pity we couldnt find some middle ground that would make most people happy.
84

Geoff,

sa 08/05/2009 16:06:50
54 AlanB-have made this comment before but when you say"would you really want different... systems" I think of the United States which has 50 members each with a very high degree of independence including a wide variety of systems notable amongst which are included wide variations in capital punishment and extradition laws, independent police forces,differing environmental legislation etc..
Somehow though it seems to work and the yanks have a very strong sense of National identity to boot!
Texan and American!!
Scottish and British?
85

The Master,

08/05/2009 16:07:59
#83 Geoff: here's hoping it doesn't take us 30 years to join the basques in freeing ourselves from the straitjacket of Nationalism.
86

The west awake,

Argyll 08/05/2009 16:11:42
83 - Dev max is like a unicorn, everybody knows about it but no-one's seen it.

Question, the new post-devmax UK Govt decides to enter some dodgy war, we in Scotland don't like the idea, can we say No?
Question, UK2 Govt decides to renew Trident and stick them WMD up the Clyde, we say No, what happens?
Question, The Scottish Govt want to run an energy pipeline to Europe, by-passing England to sell energy direct to Europe, England says No, what happens?

I could go on all day.

87

Elephant,

Linlithgow 08/05/2009 16:13:55
Its a shame that it all doesn't just come down to cash. The decision would be easy - union. Anyone who's lived elsewhere in the UK knows that public service provision is exceptional in Scotland, whether due to more spent per head or better public servants. Does that wedge from Westminster each year include tax credits and social security payments, or is that separate? If separate we'd be stuffed financially going it alone. If included I'd be swayed. I just don't want my wee boy paying out loads of tax when he grows up.
88

,

08/05/2009 16:23:18
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89

Geoff,

sa 08/05/2009 16:25:00
79 TS1 Traquir-Hi Traquir-hope you are well! The problem of English numbers is a difficult but not insurmountable one. Notwithstanding English coyness about regionalising, this would make sense in a federal arrangement-Northern england,greater London,Cornwall and the south are obvious candidates. Also checks and balances with rotating portfolios and the kind of one area one vote system that allows the smaller states in the EU and USA an equal say despite smaller populations.
90

Me Bungo Pony,

Dundee 08/05/2009 16:25:36
#85 "The Master", would that be British Nationalism then? Or is it only a straitjacket if its Scottish?

#87 "Elephant", as I posted before .... according to UK Treasury figures (prior to the massive bubble in NS Oil revenues) Scotland made up 8.5% of the UK popln, received 9.3% of UK expenditure (small popln/large country) but contributed 10.2% of UK revenue. England is NOT subsidising Scotland.
91

,

08/05/2009 16:26:12
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92

english_republic,

08/05/2009 16:27:27
@ 71, West Awake.

I can understand this view but if your ultimate aim is to break up the union you should do it through any political means necessary. Telling the English how the union harms both our nations doesn't really conflict with this.

@ 72, Me Bungo Pony

We basically agree. From my point of view the UK parliament has too many Scots telling English what to do whilst the rest of the "British not English" MPs nod in approval. From your point of view your country is in a union with a much larger country and therefore suffers socially and politically.

I think my remarks about some "Scottish Nationalists" simply being England haters is justified by the reply from "The Black Douglas". This isn't to say that some (if not most) English nationalists aren't anti Scottish. (check out the cosg forum, embarassing sometimes!)

@ 73, cheers for the pun, brilliant. I'm aware that the position of Scottish secretary is utterly redundant and useless. You still have one though. No matter how hard any scots try, you can't simply pretend Brown isn't Scottish and doesn't represent a Scottish constituency. As far as "North Britain" is concerned, he usually refers to "Scotland", however, at least "North Britain" is technically correct as opposed to using Britain instead of England which is just a convenient lie.
93

The west awake,

Argyll 08/05/2009 16:28:04
To all the Unionists cheering the new Government in the Basque Country in Spain, you might like to see the following description of how the Basque Country is currently governed;

"Nowadays it is one of the most decentralized regions in the world, in this regard it has been quoted as having "more autonomy than just about any other in Europe" - The Economist.

Since you are now such supporters of the Basques, are you as supportive of their form of Government?


94

Stephen_Gash,

Carlisle England 08/05/2009 16:31:39
@ #57 Me Bungo Pony,Dundee 08/05/2009 14:08:29
Scotland has a higher proportion of public sector workers than Sweden, if 'The Scotsman' is to be believed.
It is not only the Barnett Formula and the differential in public spending, it is all the jobs transferred from England to the rest of the UK. The aircraft carriers, destroyer modifications, Air Sea rescue HQ, Army HQs, Complaints departments, etc. Not to mention the favourable subsidies to new businesses.
Money pours out of England into Scotland and Wales.
Frankly, I don't give a stuff about whether Scotland subsidises the rest of the UK or not. I want England out of the Union. After that, whether Scotland becomes the richest country in the world, or the poorest would be no matter to me. I couldn't care less.

One bonus might be a reduction in the number of Scottish accents on my TV. Another would be no Scottish adverts on my TV in Carlisle.

The Scots have just been denied a referendum on independence. That should be a rallying cry for the SNP to vote for them. Everybody is deafened by the silence, especially with all this money supposedly flooding England quicker than the North Sea is flooding England's eastern counties because Brown refuses funding for sea defences.
Bonny Scotland is spending more on its own defences though.

How unsurprising. Please vote SNP and in God's name go.
95

,

08/05/2009 16:32:45
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96

Geoff,

sa 08/05/2009 16:35:20
86 the West Awake-notwithstanding the seemingly more uniform opinion on some matters in Scotland, the questions you pose could still be equally problematic in an Independent Scotland. There is no political unanimity in any nation or large group. I think of the Irish fratricide in the 1920's-all in the republican movement were committed to Independence but the resulting Irish civil War was more bloody than the struggle for Independence itself!
97

The Master,

08/05/2009 16:38:00
#90 Bugo: "#85 "The Master", would that be British Nationalism then? Or is it only a straitjacket if its Scottish?"

British Nationalism manifests itself in the anti European wing of the Tory Party and I would agree that it's as much a straitjacket as the Scottish variety.
98

english_republic,

08/05/2009 16:39:16
@96, good point but it would be utterly unbelievable in the event of a "YES" vote on Scottish independence if the rest of Britain divided up Scotland based on which bit said "YES" and which bit said "NO" which is what started the Irish Civil War
99

Geoff,

sa 08/05/2009 16:42:49
93 the West Awake-I was not trying to score points with the Basque observation-I just think it has pertinence to the debate at hand. There are interesting dynamics at work in the UK but it is difficult to predict how it will all pan out.As things stand Scottish nationalism has a great champion in Alex salmond-"Cometh the time...". At the same time a stale and tired Labour Government seemingly make an endless hash of things. the juxtaposition of two planets much in the favour of the ScotNats. Things might change-or maybe not-who knows?
100

Mèths,

08/05/2009 16:44:36
Hi Geoff!
101

Colkitto,

River Clyde 08/05/2009 16:44:43
#77 Meths

No, I wasn't looking at it in a "british" context nor was it reported like that.

For it to have any point you have to ask the constituent parts of the UK what they think of devolution.
That means asking the English, Welsh and Scots as separate entities. To do that, and report it as what the English think, or the Scots or the Welsh think as a whole you should really be asking at least 1000 people of those individual countries.

To report "70% of Scots believe.." after only asking 500 people is ludicrous
102

The west awake,

Argyll 08/05/2009 16:44:57
Geoff - Last post - I would say the most divisive issues in Scotland are those which emanate from South of the Border;
Poll Tax
Iraq
Nuclear power
Nuclear weapons
N Ireland
etc

I suggest Scotland would be more united as an Independent nation, not less.
103

Geoff,

sa 08/05/2009 16:47:23
98 english republic-I was referring to the internicine struggle between Irish republicans that took place in the Irish Free state-not the other Civil War between Northern Unionists and Irish nationalists. I am certain that in this day and age that a YES vote in Scotland would lead to a peaceful divorce with no danger of a Scotland split "a la six counties"
104

Mèths,

08/05/2009 16:49:55
101 Colkitto

Aye OK. Point taken.
105

Geoff,

sa 08/05/2009 16:50:53
Hi Meths-you shameless lurker!!
106

Mèths,

08/05/2009 16:53:41
Did you manage to see the semi-final Geoff? I gave you the link in a previous life!
107

Masterpiece,

08/05/2009 17:00:11
It really is good to see that the vast majority of people in England support Scottish Devolution as it is a major step in the right direction. One that I am rather surprised at.

What concerns me a great deal now after speaking with a number of teenagers and adults in the Highlands ranging from 18 to around 25 years of age is that they don't seem to have any concept of what it is to be Scottish other than I'm not British and I'm not English.
It seems that the fact that they were born in Scotland is all that is required to make them Scottish.
Indeed, none of the cultural or linguistic aspects of being Scottish ever came to mind in the many discussions we had.
A friend from Canada who was also present and works with Native Canadian and American communities commented on the fact that she thought that English colonisation of the Scottish mind and culture was now so deep that not even the North American Native communities have reached such depths.

The whole cultural vision was English in orientation even though they hold out to be fully Scottish.
This she found difficult to understand and would like some answers if possible.
108

Geoff,

sa 08/05/2009 17:00:57
102 the west awake-I know those issues tend to broadly define a different political outlook between England and scotland although there are many millions of English people who would concur with the Scots on all of the mentioned items-in particular I would think that the Iraqi war is one event that would produce near unanimity of opinion.
And,although i know you dont like them but the english can rightly claim that it was a Cabinet dominated by Scots who took the UK into the war in the first place!
109

Geoff,

sa 08/05/2009 17:03:49
106 meths-alas no meths-was in the"bush" but the result was appealing and the final is a definite.
David and Goliath!
110

Geoff,

sa 08/05/2009 17:12:35
95 TS1 Traquir-fair comment Traquir-we can agree to disagree without rancour!
111

Mèths,

08/05/2009 17:20:26
Cheers all. Off to annoy on the "Release of claims receipts" thread.
112

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 08/05/2009 17:45:43
Roll on REFERENDUM DAY when we SCOTS can finally get rid of the subsidy junkies from SOUTH OF THE BORDER. We have been bankrolling them for years now and look how they have managed to squander OUR MONEY. They could not organise a party in a brewery!!!!!!!!!!!!!
INDEPENDENCE AT ALL COSTS............
113

nova albion,

08/05/2009 18:40:50
78. Don't know you,don't want to know you,and please explain who "kimba" is and why you wronly think i am them.
114

nova albion,

08/05/2009 18:52:50
112 Oh do grow up! what a smarmy little bigoted moron you are,maybe,just maybe one day you will be a adult and realise that the world is made up of decent human beings that want the best for all of humanity. As you seem to be more bigkoted,more vile than most i will not hold my breath.
115

nova albion,

08/05/2009 19:20:33
115.Whoever he/she is they must scare the hell out of these scots!
116

nova albion,

08/05/2009 19:27:38
119. Blair,Brown,Darling,Alexander,reid,falconer need i go on.
117

nova albion,

08/05/2009 19:46:13
127. SMARTY PANTS.
118

nova albion,

08/05/2009 19:50:51
128. Ah,well i'm neither a bird nor big!
119

nova albion,

08/05/2009 19:58:09
131. LOL! I hear they like their women on the "large" side up there,keeps them warm on winter nights!
120

nova albion,

08/05/2009 20:01:48
132. A "dizzy blonde" I don't believe it. You have talked more sense than most on this thread,they all seem to be a little dim to say the least.
121

nova albion,

08/05/2009 20:03:20
134. Sheeps stomachs! yum(not)
122

Edward,

09/05/2009 01:11:22
I find it breathtaking that this story, which appeared in the Times 2 days ago and again repeated in today's Times (mostly for effect)places so much credence on a poll that only asked 500 people in Scotland.
The Times rerun of the piece has changed the headline to 'Times poll deals blow to SNP with drop in support for independence'
It is now clear that the article is a Labour inspired piece, which is why its being run out again in the Times, with the modified headline and in the Scotsman today.
Both the Times and the Scotsman, must think were idiots to fall for such a crass piece of journalism, or what passes for journalism.The same goes for Labour, who are behind this.
The real polls are those that are conducted by more reliable organisations that ask a far bigger sampling.
Example being Politics Home, who asked 35,000 in marginal seats. This gave a truer picture.
Or how about a recent YouGov poll which had Iain Gray managing to scrape together 7%
The reality is, were heading for a european election, where Labour is going to get slaughtered (even before the most recent revelations about expenses) Labour are desperate and will now try every trick to convince people that they should be voting for them.
123

The Scotchman,

09/05/2009 15:12:31
What an mong this nova albion is. It's the same clown that desperately posts under dozens of different aliases as their position is so weak.
124

GOODBYE LONDON LABOUR,

Aberdeen 09/05/2009 22:24:14
Who cares what England thinks? Let's concentrate on what is good for Scotland. After all, Scotland has been subsidising England for decades and the English know that. Why else are they so desperate to keep Scotland in the union?

 

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