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Protest man found guilty over cartoon death threats

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Published Date: 06 January 2007
Many demonstrators carried signs urging violence against perceived enemies. Picture: Getty

A BRITISH Muslim has been found guilty of soliciting murder during a London demonstration, in a high-profile Old Bailey case which has stoked debate over free speech laws.
Umran Javed, 27, led a crowd in chants of "Bomb, bomb, Denmark. Bomb, bomb USA" during protests in February 2006 against the publication of cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad.

Javed, of Birmingham, was recorded on police video and arrested l
ater, said David Perry QC, prosecuting at the Old Bailey.

Javed was found guilty of soliciting murder and stirring up racial hatred, and remanded in custody for sentencing in April. There were protests from the public gallery as the verdicts were returned.

Mr Perry said the demonstration on 3 February last year was to protest about the cartoons printed in Denmark and reproduced in some European countries. He said Javed used a loudhailer to address around 40 people outside the Danish embassy in Knightsbridge.

"He appeared to be one of the leaders," said Mr Perry. "He addressed the crowd in terms which encouraged killing and incited racial hatred."

Javed had continued with his speech as the crowd was joined by up to 300 other Muslims who had marched from the central mosque in Regent's Park.

He condemned the cartoons as dishonouring Muhammad and accused non-believers of "declaring war against Islam and the Muslim community", said Mr Perry.

"He said disbelievers would pay a heavy price ... and said Denmark would pay with blood."

Mr Perry said the case was not about freedom of assembly or freedom of speech and claimed the words used were plainly criminal.

Javed told the jury: "I regret saying these things. I understand the implications they have but they were just slogans, soundbites. I did not want to see Denmark and the USA being bombed."

His trial was one of several involving demonstrators arrested following the protest.

Outside court, Muslim Anjem Choudary, a former spokesman for the now banned al-Muhajiroun organisation, said: "I am not surprised at all. Muslims are demonised and vilified.

"We have peaceful demonstrations, and then slogans that have been used normally are taken out of context.

"This is a failure of capitalism, of democracy and the freedom of speech. Muslims are treated as second-class citizens and we can't get a fair trial."

But Sue Hemming, head of the Crown Prosecution Service counter terrorism division, said: "Free speech is an important aspect of a democratic society.

"However, when we examined Mr Javed's speech there was direct encouragement to those present and those watching via the media to commit acts of murder against the Danes and Americans.

"The law also makes it clear that free speech should not be misused to insult, abuse or threaten people in such a way that it will stir up racial hatred.

"Given the context in which Mr Javed's speech was delivered, it was plain that racial hatred was intended or the likely result."

The shadow home secretary, David Davis, later said: "While Britain is a tolerant society, it should never tolerate threats of violence or death from any quarter under any circumstance."

Liberal Democrat home affairs spokesman Nick Clegg said: "This is a sound, strong judgment. There is simply no justification, under any circumstances, for such callous incitement to hatred and violence."



Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 06 January 2007 1:14 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Danish cartoon row
 
1

Shashlik,

Kazakhstan 06/01/2007 02:50:47

It never fails to amaze me just why we allow these people into our Country who advocate violence against us and western people in general. Before coming to the UK they should firstly swear legions to our Queen our Country our culture and respect our traditions.
Then they should be sworn to respect all of that above their own religion, because our rights should take priority over their rights. After all they are the one's wanting to come to our Country and no body is forcing them to come. If they don't then we should not give them a British Passport.
It's simple really, respect us and in return we will allow you to live here under license until such times as you break that respect. Give them a 20 year license and any infringement of that would be considered a violation of their rights to stay in the UK.
I have worked outside the UK for more than 30 years and I still do not understand why we are so tolerant to these people who hate us.

2

KaiPie,

06/01/2007 02:59:48

I find it ironic that freedom of speech is being cited yet it is that same freedom of speech they wanted to suppress in the first place by saying these cartoons shouldn't be allowed.

3

Heilan laddie,

Inverness 06/01/2007 04:07:47

Well said Shashlik. I totaly agree. Its time our government started protecting our rights and our culture and started controling our own borders.
If they dont agree with our culture they should not be here its quite simple. How on earth a minority of 2 million people can dictate to a majority of 58 million people beggars beliefe. I was always lead to believe when I was growing up that in a democratic society the majority ruled. Its difficult to understand why Christians, Jews, Buddhists etc dont go around threatening people when they are insulted but these people do. I think they should take up a hobby or something.

4

Chuck.U.Farley,

06/01/2007 05:46:09

Outside court, Muslim Anjem Choudary, a former spokesman for the now banned al-Muhajiroun organisation, said: "I am not surprised at all. Muslims are demonised and vilified.

Jaw dropping stuff ............vilified???

Was is not one of his muslim brothers who was just convicted?
Under Islam is murder not considered a vile act?

5

Krishna,

Udupi, India 06/01/2007 05:52:34

Sir/Madam:
I am happy read to the comments of 1, 2 and 3. I am glad that at least some have realized the threat. Let me add here, it is only the beginning!

In India, one Muslim painter has been painting Hindu Gods, Goddesses and India in nude and more intolerable manner. I have not heard Muslims making violent protests in India against this painter.

However, based on freedom of religion, free speech, democracy and so on, there were violent protests against the cartoons as dishonoring Muhammad. Look at the double standards and hypocrisy! As in the case of UK, US and many secular democracies, it is clear that their loyalty is not to the nation they live (in clear terms fifth columnists) but somewhere else!

In Australia, Muslim kids pissed on Bible. How many Muslims condemned this act? Were there protests?

Most of the Muslims in the early phase of immigration to UK were uneducated and they came for "better life". Many came on asylums. Many criminals including some from India took shelter using the pretext that they will not get justice in a Hindu majority India! Now look at many of them and the next generation! Talk about blasting the hand that helps: you have right in your doorstep!

Laws are not static. They have to change with the time. Under these circumstances, laws have to be changed. All those, who are not loyal, including the next generation, should be packed off lock, stock and barrel to the nations they have come from!
Regards,

6

Scottabroad,

06/01/2007 05:54:31

The muslims are riding a wave of political correctnes whereby it is almost impossible to say anything critical about Islam for fear of the overreaction witnessed last year after a cartoon, a CARTOON for Mohammed's sake, was drawn. I totally agree with Shashlik - live in our country, contribute to our economy and respect the ways of the host nation. Stop namby pambying to everyone who feels a little bit sensitive.

7

Chuck.U.Farley,

06/01/2007 06:44:24

>>Outside court, Muslim Anjem Choudary, a former spokesman for the now banned al-Muhajiroun organisation, said: "I am not surprised at all. Muslims are demonised and vilified.<<

Is Javed not a muslim and incitment to murder a vile act?

Classic piece of double think there Mr Choudary

8

andrew robertson,

fife scotland 06/01/2007 07:26:20

This is getting out of hand in a big way there would be no need for this if only they would keep their mouths shut.They say that we have free speach in our country DO THEY UNDERSTAND THE MEANING OF THIS if this is islam then it is not welcome here.Last night a young man who had taken part in ann robinsons show was booted off by fellow contestants and his remarks were that the queen and the royal party were useless and sat about all day Why did the bbc allow this to be on tele and what did have to do with him getting the boot.This was a poor way for a young man who i suspect born in this country to behave and shame on him should he believe in islam it is people like him that should just go back to their own country and see the barbaric goings on and then they may at last find out that GB is a good place to live and that they should respect our laws and beliefs as we would respect theirs.

9

Pocket Dictionary,

Scotland 06/01/2007 07:34:01

On Thursday 04/01/07 10pm - 1am, a shock jock on a down market Edinburgh based talk radio station was calling for the stoning of women. He said that women who tell men they are on the pill and subsequently not and become pregnant, should be taken to the town square and receive a stoning. I would say that is calling for someone's death, will police investigate this and bring charges or is it only Muslims that face the courts?

10

W Smith,

Middle East 06/01/2007 07:50:59

".. and then slogans that have been used NORMALLY are taken out of context" - Anjem Choudary

Normally????? Its 'normal' to threaten to behead someone? Amazing!

BTW
1) I have heard of Brits been kicked out of Singapore for starting fights in pubs, touching a girl's backside in the pub, etc. Does that mean the Singapore government are anti-British? Certainly not! It just means that they don't put up with any nonsense.

2) Australia has deported Scottish criminals - even it has meant taking back the Oz passport. Does that mean the Aussies are anti-Scottish? No way!

Its time to get tough on these trouble makers and we should let them know that we don't give in to this emotional blackmail that comes with accusations like 'your anti-Muslim', 'your demonising muslims', etc.

If the Brits working in the ME went around threatening to behead Muslims it wouldn't be long before they got kicked out of the ME. In fact, they would be lucky to get out alive!

11

Brendan,

06/01/2007 08:34:55

One thing that concerned me most about that protest was the banners they were carrying were all created by the same hand - recall at the time seeing a female making up the banners with her distinctive handwriting. She was filmed on national TV making up the banners and yet no action taken against her as yet, that I'm aware of. Curious.

12

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06/01/2007 08:39:23
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Faramars,

IRAN 06/01/2007 09:08:07

As a Muslim I can not approve the words used by Umran . Killing civilians is forbidden in real Islamic theory and I can strongly claim that there no religion which is in opposition to murder as Islam .
Mr. Perry has declared that Umran Javad is accused of "soliciting murder" . I advise him to have glance at a book titled" English criminal law". Using mere words without real intention to commit a crime can not be regarded as criminal behavior. Lawyers better know that on of the essential elements to constitute a crime is Mens Rea. Umran has used many words which there is no real and active intention behind them. In other hand soliciting is criminal if someone helps another individual who is ready to commit a crime. In this case there was no real person to act in this way at the time of protest .
Finally I can conclude that depending upon whom is under trial in an English court the outcome can be different . As we discussed yesterday British soldiers beating Iraqis teenagers were easily acquitted contrary to all rules of law . Today Umran was found guilty because of his religion .

14

scotspatriot,

06/01/2007 09:16:46

"This is a failure of capitalism, of democracy and the freedom of speech. Muslims are treated as second-class citizens and we can't get a fair trial."

How hypocritical these people are. Double standards at its highest level.
Do as I say, don't do as I do.

Freedom of speech? So, the Taliban were pioneers in that field? Give me a break.

The tide is turning, people are just plain sick of pandering to the political correct brigade who think we should allow these people to do as they want. No chance.

If you're not happy in this country with OUR laws and OUR traditions......go somewhere else, preferably many, many miles from this country.

P.S. Pax Vobiscum, I agree with your stance on the monarchy. Well said.

15

Labour voter,

06/01/2007 09:21:39

Lets face it, we now look at these "peaceful" people, some who have been in our communities for years, and wonder just where their sympathies lie!

16

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06/01/2007 09:23:29
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scotspatriot,

06/01/2007 09:23:41

Faramars,

The mens rea here is the intent to solicit racial hatred and murder. And using mere words could constitute conspiracy. Think about it.

It would not be at all difficult to prove beyond reasonable doubt that this was his intention. As has been proven.

The crime needs both actus and mens rea. He had both. He is guilty as charged

Nothing to do with his religion but I'm sure this will be tried as a defence on appeal against his Human Rights.

18

CapitalKid,

06/01/2007 09:26:52

Once again, we see how religion threatens to subvert our civil life. If we got rid of that, how much better off we would all be.

Failing that, the civil liberty of Free Speech as enshrined in our laws and culture maintains that the speaker is responsible for his words. Shouldn't this Muslim therefore have thought carefully about what he was shrieking?

Choudary is trying to pull a fast one and must know we can all see through it. We're not all stupid in this country.

I'm a fervent anti-monarchist ...but this crap about the Windsors' fabled German past is just hot air. Her proven family tree goes right back to circa 500ce with her far ancestor Fergus Mor mac Erca ... king of the Dalriadic Scots who came from Ireland. She, her father, grandfather and great grandfather were all born in Britain. How many generations do you have to go back to prove "Britishness"?

I know several "asian" people who are 3rd generation and they are as Scottish as anybody with Mac in their name!

19

ROXY ROOLS,

06/01/2007 09:42:51

That bunch are always looking for some excuse to riot or bring down the west..it was a cartoon, for God's(anybody's) sake...as in joke. As i have said before, if the tables were turned.......

about 3 weeks ago.Catherine Tait, comedienne, did a skit on her show where she poked fun at various nationalities..to my knowledge none of their citizens have been demanding her brought to justice.

20

scotspatriot,

06/01/2007 09:44:53

Anyway, giving this subject oxygen only allows it to live longer.

We will never find a common ground. The opposing factions are just too rooted in their own beliefs.
Pessemistic, yes. Realistic, I think so.

21

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06/01/2007 09:45:30
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06/01/2007 09:47:55
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scotspatriot,

06/01/2007 09:56:27

Faraman is very quiet.

24

Duncan,

SCOTLAND where IT REALLY IS TIME 06/01/2007 09:56:39

13 FARAMAR

You say you are in Iran. How you can have the affrontery to try and criticise this prosecution defies belief. Here is an example of justice Iranian style.

"On June 8, the Third Branch of the Revolutionary Court in Ahwaz sentenced Zamel Bawi, Jaafar Sawari, Risan Sawari and Abdulreza Nawaseri to death following a one-day trial on June 7. Human Rights Watch has been informed that no witnesses were called in the trial of these four men. The Judiciary has not provided dates and details of trials for the other nine men sentenced to death.

According to Iranian activists, one of the convicted men, Nazem Bureihi, has been imprisoned since 2000 and was serving a 35-year sentence for ?insurgency against the state? at the time of his alleged crime.

?One of the wonders of the Iranian Judiciary is that it can accuse a person of carrying out bombings while he?s in prison,? said Whitson. ?That lays bare the arbitrariness of his conviction.?

Iran carries out more executions annually than any other nation but China. Human Rights Watch, which opposes capital punishment in all instances, called on the Iranian government to stop using the death penalty, due to its inherent cruelty and irrevocability. "

Reform your own country before trying to advise us. These preachers of hate on our streets are an offence against Christianity and Democracy and our service personnel who make the ultimate sacrifice. If I tried preaching like that in Tehran how long would I last, before I was beheaded?

25

Duncan,

SCOTLAND where IT REALLY IS TIME 06/01/2007 10:00:03

16 PAX

Do you want some fish to go with the chips on your shoulders.

26

BenDover,

06/01/2007 10:05:32

Ho Ho Ho, let's hope he's ends up as someone girlfriend in jail and comes out with a serious smack habit.

27

scotspatriot,

06/01/2007 10:09:25

25

Ah, but if he does get a smack habit, the government will do everything in its power to help him, Free housing, dental care, rehab, etc, etc, whilst the real needy get bugger all.

We can only hope about the girfriend thing, though.

28

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06/01/2007 10:11:26
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PM Burton,

UK 06/01/2007 10:14:55

Demonisation of Islam? Just try spreading Biblical Christianity in this country, and voice opposition to Gay rights or something and see how Evangelical Christianity is demonised in a so-called 'Christian' country. It's time to wake up, my muslim friends!

30

scotspatriot,

06/01/2007 10:17:15

Right, its past 10 o clock. Who's round is it?

31

scotspatriot,

06/01/2007 10:26:52

29.

But doesn't Christianity demonise gays?

Im not one, I hasten to add, but Christianity is extremely prejudice about gay rights.
The bible belt in America is far-right in its opinion on this.

32

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06/01/2007 10:29:47
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scotspatriot,

06/01/2007 10:31:08

This talking about religion before my dinner on a Saturday is too heavy man.

I say follow the gourd. He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy.

34

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06/01/2007 10:32:27
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06/01/2007 10:34:52
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scotspatriot,

06/01/2007 10:38:25

35

Sorry to say, you need to open your eyes then.

The bible says, 'Man will not lie with man.'

Prejudice. Fact.

37

Faramars,

Iran 06/01/2007 10:40:36

# Pay vobiscum 16 – Scotpatroit 17 & Duncan 23

# Pay vobiscum 16
You have told that an Act of Parliament has been passed to protect you from such behaviour. please post the details of the Act in order to help me learn English law better .
Please note that Umran is a British citizen and you can not ask him to leave his hometown.


#Scotpatroit 17

Thanks for your comment. As a general rule in almost legal systems the accusation must be established beyond reasonable doubt. As far I know there is a special emphasis upon this principle in common law. In this case there is nobody who is actually ready for commit murder. Therefore we can charge Umran with soliciting murder.

#Duncan 23
Dear friend
Bad or good death penalty is recognized in Iranian legal system. you are free to criticize this institution .

38

scotspatriot,

06/01/2007 10:41:07

What has all this got to do with the original topic anyway?

Bugger it, I'm off back to bed.

FREE SCOTLAND.

39

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06/01/2007 10:41:29
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06/01/2007 10:42:34
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scotspatriot,

06/01/2007 10:45:56

Faramers.

Reasonable doubt is not exclusive to murder. In common law two factors need to be proven.
1. The act (actus reus)

2. The intent (mens rea)

If these two factors can be proven beyond reasonable doubt, in ANY common law crime, then the accused is guilty.

Your welcome.

42

scotspatriot,

06/01/2007 10:46:53

Pax.

Your naughty.

43

BenDover,

06/01/2007 10:47:38

Wonder what the Koran says about nonces, particulary given their Prophet was one?

44

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06/01/2007 10:48:24
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Eric D,

Renfrew 06/01/2007 10:50:14

If he is 1st generation then he should be deported. We dont want those type.

46

scotspatriot,

Republic of Scotland 06/01/2007 10:54:25

43

Ben

Controversial.

47

Alex.,

06/01/2007 10:58:58

Why are demonstrators allowed to do so with their faces covered? Do they do it because they are cowards? Do they not have the courage of their convictions to show their faces? After this conviction we can expect more Muslim demonstrators with faces covered. Should we all cover our faces so politicians are forced to bring this to an end to allow the law enforcers to do their jobs without hindrance.

48

Sanny,

Portugal 06/01/2007 11:02:27

4. Chuck.U.Farley: - “Under Islam is murder not considered a vile act?”
Not if it is a Kuffer - That is Non-Muslims.
Check the Koran it has 32 verses calling for the slaughter of non-Muslims. But there is a tax system where you can pay them to be allowed to live. That’s one Mr. Brown hasn’t caught up with yet.
9. Pocket Dictionary,: - One idiot does not make a country Whereas murder is part of the Koran. I get angry when I hear the likes of Prince Charles and Blair et al say “Islam is a religion of peace”. Look at its history.
10. W Smith: - Would that our politicians take a leaf out of Australia’s book. Remove not just the offender but the entire family!
13. Faramars, IRAN: - Either you are stupid and or a liar. Try reading your so called holy book and the Hadiths.
Perhaps Faramar could answer this question: What is the punishment for someone who dares to leave the Islamic faith, in other words an Apostate?

Sorry I haven’t time to read any more. Happy New Year to all

49

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06/01/2007 11:04:30
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scotspatriot,

Republic of Scotland 06/01/2007 11:15:06

Right, I'm definitely away to bed.

Happy New Year to all

and

FREE SCOTLAND

51

Faramars,

iran 06/01/2007 11:16:05

# sanny 48
I wonder why your parents have not learnt you to respect others irrespective of their beliefs .

52

Analytical Techniques,

06/01/2007 11:17:03

WHO SHOULD BE KICKED OUT OF WHOSE COUNTRY? DO YOU OWN ONE? DID YOU CREATE ONE?THIS IS GOD'S COUNTRY.WHERE ARE YOUR TITLE DEEDS?YOU WILL ALL DIE AND LEAVE FOREIGNERS IN THIS COUNTRY, BECAUSE IT IS NOT YOURS. OR ELSE IF YOU KEEP CO-HABITING AND NOT HAVING KIDS, YOU WILL BE OUTNUMBERED BY FOREIGNERS, THEY WILL TAKE OVER YOUR 'COUNTRY' AND THEY WILL SEND YOU TO AFRICAN FARMS AS SLAVES. YOU DID IT TO THEM, THE CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLE OF SOWING AND REAPING SAYS, YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW.

53

scotspatriot,

Republic of Scotland 06/01/2007 11:24:15

Analytical Techniques.

The Almighty told me personally that Scotland is MY land.

But, what you say, has a lot of thruth in it. Unfortunately.

54

BenDover,

06/01/2007 11:24:57

52 - Yawn, did you get battered at school or did your special uncle touch you or something? What a weirdo.

55

Courtney,

East Molesey 06/01/2007 11:25:44

A very fair verdict

56

James.D,

Turenki, Finland 06/01/2007 11:27:01

Pax, posts too numerous to mention.
Th
e queen, IS Head of State, thats why an oath would be taken in her name, not Tony Bliars, as for having a catholic chip on your shoulder, has your belief ever stopped you getting a job, or anything else in life? OK I realise, you can never aspire to become the Royal family, but that goes for about 60 million other British subject, so hardly worth thinking about.
Back to the thread, if muslims want to remain in Britain, they should be made to toe the line, no special treatment, they are a minority group, fit in or F### off springs to mind. Bring back Christmas and all other Cristian festivals to go under thier own name, sing Carols whenever you want, Britain is a Cristian country, though we dont all go to church, we have to respect Muslims beliefs when we visit their lands, (the bible is a proscribed book in Saudi Arabia)
All this talk about shopworkers not wanting Christmas decorations, because it is against their beliefs, well its not against the majorities belief, does that mean the same shopworker, working at the checkout, won't touch the packet of bacon or other pork products, because Islam says its filthy?

57

scotspatriot,

Republic of Scotland 06/01/2007 11:27:54

Apart from the African farms thing.

The climate in sub-Saharan Africa is not temperate, therefore rendering it an unlikely area for growing crop. And it's not going to get any better.

But what do I know, I'm only 12.

58

BMelville,

Scotland 06/01/2007 11:30:42

When does Tony Blair go in the dock for advocating the bombing of Serbia, Iraq, Afganistan?

59

scotspatriot,

Republic of Scotland 06/01/2007 11:33:04

58

A week on Friday.

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06/01/2007 11:37:06
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06/01/2007 11:38:13
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06/01/2007 11:39:13
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06/01/2007 11:40:37
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06/01/2007 11:48:27
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Alex.,

06/01/2007 11:51:07

#52. Is it not the case that not only were Muslims the master slave traders, they still are. Slavery still exists in the middle east. So far as saying this is not our country. You should be careful. On one hand you infer we have been colonialists but colonising this country seems to be your plan. Bit of a double edged sword. Maybe we should go to the middle east and claim the oil rich countries for ourselves and make them Christian countries. After all what is good for the Muslim is good for Christians too.

66

scotspatriot,

Republic of Scotland 06/01/2007 11:58:00

Everyone here should note that Faramars is practicing "taqqiyah". This is the Islamic practice of decepion

Infidel. I have an uneasy feeling you may be doing the same.

Prove me wrong.

67

Louisa,

Perth 06/01/2007 12:00:35

Back to the article -

We may have 'freedom of speech' as an entirely reasonable and traditional precedent in the UK - but it is subject to legal safeguards (perjury, slander, libel etc.) which this fellow, captured on film and sound recording patently abused. The context of the crime is also of relevance - it was perpetrated in full public view at a time designed to exploit anger and threaten revenge from a specific group against another.
I'm sick to the back teeth of our misguided 'tolerance' and subjugation to empty barrel minority squeals and tantrums in the name of multi culturism - whatever that's supposed to be. Thank goodness the law is there (?) to ensure UK justice is sustained in place of the sycophant liberals who would seem to embrace what we rightly, in other times, would have classed as High Treason, betrayal and perfidy.
Islam appears to be leaning against our UK open-door and therefore we are Accessory to these crimes. Time to slam that door shut and request all to knock politely before being granted a well-considered entry or refusal? I insist (politely) on my own 'house rules' being followed when my selected guests and visitors come calling - it's about time the UK did the same thing - except the EU has it's big flat foot in our doorway.

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06/01/2007 12:12:58
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06/01/2007 12:14:53
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radical pink,

fife 06/01/2007 12:18:39

52# what makes you the official historian and seer for Scotland? Your recollections and predictions are way off key; Scotland will never be ruled by the outlandish disparity and cruelty created by many foreign customs and the religious fakery of cloned zealots who denigrate women and murderously attempt to control others.

As to the African slave trade reference and hellish as it was, Scotland suffered the same heinous governances and homicidal ethos in the form of the Highland clearances, since then we have moved on. The Scots learned from the experience, whereas parts of Africa are stuck in a time warp, courting home grown despots and disaster, Darfur being an exemplary example of in house slave trading!

So really I’d think twice before making daft wishful thinking predictions, in your dreams will Scotland ever bow to the despotic rule of uncivilised cultures, or be overrun by foreigners who dislike us, we’re much too loveable. I think you’d be better off going back to sleep and try to dream nice things, alternatively why not have a wee dram to quell your anger….uch sorry, I forgot your God probably doesn’t allow alcohol or a bit of fun, whit a shame, mine is a great laugh and goes out on the lash every Friday!

71

Wayne Blanchard,

CANADA 06/01/2007 12:29:43

'Deutschland uber alles.' Just a few choice words from Hitler. First ideas, then words, then action. If the speaker doesn't do the crime, there's always some gullible, mindless fool who will see 'the light' in such dark words and pick up the sword. The lads involved in the London bombings were 'inspired' by words...

Britain is/was/can be a sensational place. Why do you think people of the world flock to London, Edinburgh and beyond, but not so much to Tehran, Baghdad, or other Islamic centres? Don't get me wrong, I admire and respect Islam in its true, honest form. And the aforementioned cities are/were/could be sensational places themselves. But fools like the gentleman (!) in question and those who support his behaviour should remind us all that there are those who insist on pushing their none-too-good agenda on others. In this instance, deport him and his supporters before there are (again) running battles on the streets of Bradford, and the local ethnic restaurant decides to spike its Friday night curry with cyanide. Britain uber alles.

72

W Smith,

Middle East 06/01/2007 12:44:13

BTW
During the Iraq-Iran war the Iranians used the Basji milita to fight Iraqi army.

1) It was basically a suicide squad made up of boys aged 12 to 17 years old.

2) They were given plastic keys to carry, which symbolised the act of martyrdom - a key to open the spiritual door and enter Paradise.

3) The keys were made in Taiwan!

4) Sad to say that in any future war involving Iran the same strategy is likely to be deployed.

(Source: yesterday's Daily Telegraph)

73

SILVANA,

Glasgow 06/01/2007 12:46:24

If our Government took a leaf out of the Australian Government's book, I am sure these problems would diminish. I personally believe if they want to behave in this manner they are free to do so but in their own country

74

Jingling Geordie,

The Athens of the North. 06/01/2007 12:56:04

#2 & 3

Good points however I wonder if the muslim community ever ask this question.

QUESTIONS.

1. How many muslims leave their country of origin
and enter the UK as immigrants?.

2. How many christians leave the UK to immigrate
to a muslim country?.

ANSWERS.

1. Upwards of one million.

2. Less than a couple of thousand.

Now ask yourself why.

Muslims are welcome in this country, which is our country and my country however if they can't adapt then then perhaps they should relocate to somewhere more suited to their intolerances.

75

Tired of Hypocrites,

Canada 06/01/2007 13:17:35

Lets make this real easy, If myself or anyone else protested with the same type slogans that Umran Javed used, I would be in jail and in front oage headlines before he was and vilified as the worst of human trash.
this type of action should not be tolerated from anyone or group. READ my name!!

76

Sanny,

Portugal 06/01/2007 13:26:07

51. Faramars, iran: -
As I expected to avoid answering the question you would rather try to insult me. Yes parents did teach me respect but as an Islamist I doubt if you would even begin to understand the concept. Now just try to answer the simple question I posed too you.
As someone who has studied Islam, the Koran and the Hadiths I am reasonably informed on Islamic beliefs and of the history of the pedophile Mohammed and how he spread his “message” by the sword.
My friend try to open your mind, take the scales from your eyes. Read the origins of Islam, study the Koran as simple human being and see it for what it is. Then when your mind is freed from the brainwashing, study the origins and history of monotheism from Iraq onwards through Egypt and Israel. Perhaps if you are allowed in Iran you can become a convinced Agnostic like myself.

77

Krishna,

Udupi, India 06/01/2007 13:57:10

Sir/Madam:
#78:

This vote business and appeasing Muslims including extremists will only increase with more Muslims' mass production in the US, UK and Europe as in India.

Politicians: don't bank on them! They will search for safe havens where they can run at the first trouble!
Regards,

78

Reiver,

Borders 06/01/2007 14:12:28

We offerred them the door and welcomed them into our home ... if they don't like our sitting room, then they should be VERY LOUDLY reminded where the door is ...

79

Quizmaster,

Michigan, USA 06/01/2007 14:12:52

#75 You've got it.
If one can't adapt....It's time to go.

Try asking for directions in Paris in English (Good Luck)

80

Louisa,

Perth 06/01/2007 14:16:49

Quizmaster - I found the same problem in Montreal!

81

Faye,

Scotland 06/01/2007 14:27:44

Its it any wonder some people say.... end religion - its the route of all evil!

Religion should not be taught in Schools or funded by the taxpayer. As for sending people back? The agitators appear to be born here! Of course, the place of birth of the father or previous generations should be considered as the place of origin and return. Remember the partition? Will those countries want to take back agitators?

The media should stop giving too much attention to these people who wish to incite trouble. The labelling a whole group of people is wrong. It is the rantings of extremists that must be tackled. Anyone who goes to the trouble of making up a banner saying "Exterminate" "Behead" is clearly inciting hatred.

Deal with the extremists and let ordinary decent hardworking people of all nationalities feel safe.

82

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06/01/2007 14:30:55
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06/01/2007 14:36:50
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CymruRhydd,

Cymru, Ynys Prydain 06/01/2007 14:44:11

check out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_kyNIevsIs to see how civilized these Islamicist are - and these people claim they are moderate! More can be found at: http://www.islam-watch.org/Videos/index.html

85

2dogs in D.C.,

over coffee 06/01/2007 14:45:36

I believe you will have more sucess un-scrambling an egg than changing any religous fanatics mind. Think i'll go make some eggs.

86

Duncan,

SCOTLAND where IT REALLY IS TIME 06/01/2007 14:47:41

27 PAXO

No and Yes.

87

Soph,

london 06/01/2007 15:09:45

Personally I have heard nothing to convince me that Islamism as a religion, bears goodwill and peacefulness to all men (and women).
Which as it happens is one of the basic concepts of Christianity. There are numerous references in the Koran to killing the unbeliever if they will not convert, infact Islamists are told to consider themselves at war with any unbelievers and that the laws of Islam take precedence over all and any national laws.
I am absolutely convinced that the Islamic religion was created by someone (yes I know it was Mohammad) who hads an awful lot in common with the individual that created Scientology( L.Ron. Hubbard) i.e that they were both conmen. but anyway that has very little to do with todays topic.

Free speech is an important part of our (British) law, and rightly so, but that does not give anyone the right to say anything they like, incitement to commit crimes IS a crime in its self and that was what Javed was found guilty of.
In my opinion once Javed has served his time, he should be deported to an Islamic country, so what if he was born here, his religion is obviously more important to him than this countrys laws, so therefore he should be willing to live somewhere where Islam is more important too.
Infact just save our taxpayers money and deport him now.

88

Faramars,

iran 06/01/2007 15:24:12

#Sanny 77
My dear friend
In this website we can share an online discussion which can be useful and full of friendship . Here we can teach and learn. The language must be full of kindness and friendship , otherwise we only waste the time which is not reasonable . when you address others as stupid or lair , don’t expect them to continue debate with you .

89

Duncan,

06/01/2007 15:27:55

90 FARAMARS

If you are indeed in Iran, are you not being monitored as you post to a forum?

What do you have to say about Irans human rights record as highlighted by me at 23?

90

RC_Rock68,

Fairfax, Virginia, USA 06/01/2007 15:33:59

The bottom line is that there truly is no such thing as moderate Islam.

For more information, I suggest reading the following books:

"Inside Islam - A Guide For Catholics" by Robert Spencer and Daniel Ali (a former Muslim who converted to Catholicism)

"The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades)" by Robert Spencer

"The Sword of the Prophet: History, Theology, Impact on the World" by Serge Trifkovic

"The Truth About Muhammad: Founder of the World's Most Intolerant Religion" by Robert Spencer

91

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 06/01/2007 15:40:54

Faramars is either a fool or pre-psychotic. He reads the Koran but does not understand what it contains and exactly what Mohammed said in the Holy Koran.

And for Faramars to address us as "dear friends" and say he no longer want to engage in sane discussion shows he is a coward, intellectual fraud, and a casuistrist of the most pernicious type.

The accused got what he deserved and his supporters, if identified, should be deported from Great Britain because they WILL stop at nothing - including MURDER - to put forward their disgusting views.

They will NOT be going to paradise because they twist the words of the Holy Koran and insult the prophet Mohammed in doing so. They are apostates and we know that fate of apostates in the religion of Islam.

92

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06/01/2007 15:44:28
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sheena,

in the past 06/01/2007 15:49:43

for Sanny @77
Three years ago one of the local councillors in Clackmannanshire was forced to resign when he was charged and later convicted and jailed for pedophilia. I believe he has been released pending appeal. He was from Iran and his name was Faramars, although he preferred to be called Joe.............?

94

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06/01/2007 15:58:33
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06/01/2007 16:04:38
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sheena,

in the past 06/01/2007 16:16:36

I did not call anyone on this website anything. I just made a statement of a fact which you can check in news archives.

97

HIS,

Edinburgh 06/01/2007 16:21:15

100

98

HIS,

Edinburgh 06/01/2007 16:21:42

That hunner had no religious affiliation.

99

eric,

Lothian 06/01/2007 16:24:59

22 That works both ways as we all know,And Glasgow City Counci; employs mostly RC ,I think Catholics do very well in Glasgow ,
Theres a lot worse than gay folk out in our society as The RC church is Crammed full of People who touch up little boys n girls ,No offence Fact.
Some Gvt offices we cant Play xmas music we cant call it CHRIStmas just Religious holidays,So the Guy got what he deserved,But he Wont do the time ,We will bow to pressure groups and pc mob Again,And he will be out claiming compensation,

100

eric,

Lothian 06/01/2007 16:25:53

oops 20

101

Swilly Tisher,

Loch Maree 06/01/2007 16:33:05

Seems a harsh verdict , but I suppose you have to draw the line somewhere.

102

CymruRhydd,

Cymru, Ynys Prydain 06/01/2007 16:39:40

To quote Faramars at: http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/health.cfm?id=7782007 thread 116 "It is clear that alcohol is a main cause for many mental and physical deseases (sic) . furthermore it is a cause for violance (sic) which could amount to some criminal behavior such as murder ."
So what does Faramars use as an excuse for beheadings, bombings etc. committed by members of the Islamic community?

103

iainruadh,

Clovenfords 06/01/2007 16:46:39

Most of the Pakistani immigrants and who cause the problems are illiterate peasants from feudal villages. We should perhaps insist on a would be immigrants having at least a minumum level of education comparable say to 50% of the European average. This would ensure that the more civilised, westernised Musselmen are not out shouted by their dumber compatriots

104

Kenneth,

06/01/2007 16:53:20

As someone who has lived in several countries and travelled somewhat, it seems to me that when in Rome do as the Romans is the bottom line. What bothers me is preferance given to religions in secular countries such as Canada. Sikh men/boys are allowed to carry a dagger in public because it is a religious item. In a scuffle is someone with a dagger that is losing not going to be inclined to pull it. Sikh men are allowed to forgo head protection in many cases to allow the religious use of a turban. In the military a Sikh is allowed to wear his turban in the place of the standard head dress. In a country where all pay for medical treatment this smacks of irresponsibility on the part of the soft cover when head injuries cost millions. Islamic women? maybe women but who knows, are allowed to move about in what, if not for the religion, would be a disguise hiding the identity of the person. This all seems trivial to some, however, the basis of my complaint is that in a secular country the law of the majority is god and that law which includes the freedom to not be persecuted for being of one religious persuasion or another, nevertheless, dominates. The secular law is god. The secular law prohibits religious persecution. The secular law, however, does not allow some religions to be exempt of the same law that determines the rights, freedoms, and limitations of all. If a country, such as Israel or Iran wishes to establish themselves as a religious state then that is their business. In countries such as: Canada, France, Great Britain, and the United States, it should be enough to be free to worship as long as that worshiping is contained within the laws of the land. If someone cannot worship their version of god without all sorts of superficial trappings including disguises that could harbour a criminal, weapons that could be used to kill someone, and other elements that excuse what others are obligated to follow, then maybe they should be thinking a little

105

Kenneth,

06/01/2007 16:56:23

The man, if indeed that is a man, holding the sign encouraging harm to come to those who "slander" his or her religion should be looked at as someone encouraging harm. The religious issue cannot be considered in a secular society.

106

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06/01/2007 17:15:04
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107

Soph,

london 06/01/2007 17:15:17

Very well said Kenneth.

108

disgusted with courts,

06/01/2007 17:26:00

I just watched that chilling video of the islam so called demo, I call it something else.....

How in hell are they allowed to live in this country and yet threaten us with "uk you will pay, 7/7 is on it's way" do what Maggie done with the libyans when they caused trouble here, toss the lot of them out back where they came from where they can practice their own habits lawfully.

109

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06/01/2007 17:34:51
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06/01/2007 17:37:16
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briffy,

Malta 06/01/2007 18:03:19

I agree 100% with the court ruling..inciting people to murder or injure others is a criminal act particularly so when it happens in public. This doesn't have anything to do with the religion of the perpetrator..be he/she Christian, Muslim or whatever..no one should be allowed to go scot-free (pardon the pun) if he/she incites somebody to murder people of whatever denomination. If somebody doesn't accept this, he/she is perfectly free to leave the UK. Nobody is forcing anybody to stay in the UK. If one doesn't like the UK legislation then he/she should get the hell out of the country and go settle somewhere else. I can well imagine how somebody from the West would be treated if he went around in a Muslim country carrying banners inciting people to murder Muslims! Would the Police allow it in the first place and, if they did, would they give protection to this demonstrator, and would this demonstrator be given a fair trial if he is eventually arrested? In a free, democratic country like the UK, one can at any time leave the UK and go live somewhere else. The old adage "When you are in Rome do as the Romans do" still applies today. Respectable people always respect the customs of the country; Western female journalists and photographers on duty in Muslim countries like Iraq, Afghanistan etc always wear a veil or some cover for the head or face out of respect - or fear or whatever; so why should Muslims in Western countries still cover their heads or faces as if they were still living in a Muslim country? One can't and should not tolerate this behaviour anymore in the West; it's about time that we stop bending over backwards to accomodate the Muslim minorities in Western Christian countries simply not to appear that we are in any way being intolerant. Muslims are allowed to practise their religion in Western countries, but this fundamental right should not be abused and they should not be allowed to overstep and incite people to murder, simply because

112

Listen Ear,

06/01/2007 18:17:18

Why Can't the UK Police Arrest George Bush, Tony Blair, Ehud Olmert and their accomplices on charges of Genocide that has been happening in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine and Lebanon.

The above mentioned actually colluded with each other and ordered the attacks, knowing full well that thousands of innocent people would be slaughtered.

Instead they arrest a geezer with a plackard.. rather than the people behind the worlds's greatest atrocities and crimes against humanity since World War 2.

113

Oliver F,

UK 06/01/2007 18:35:39

Listen Ear #115

"Why Can't the UK Police Arrest George Bush, Tony Blair, Ehud Olmert and their accomplices on charges of Genocide that has been happening in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine and Lebanon."

I will agree with that if we add Haniyeh (Hamas), President Amanadinajad of Iran, President Assad of Syria and Hassan Nasrallah (head of Hezbollah).

Deal?

114

Kenneth,

06/01/2007 18:57:11

#109

Intolerant secularism, in that religion is excluded from society is not the meaning I give to the word. My interpretation of this flexible word is pegged to the constitution(s) of the various countries that are so called secular. In the United States, it means the freedom to worship however one wishes to worship. Granted that referred to fewer religions at the time but the idea is the same. Religion was to be a right given under the laws made by the constitution and the democratic society. Both constitution and society continue to evolve. If there is a god, (if any religion attracts my attention it would be the "What if there were a god" religion. It might persuade us all to be more responsible as humans if we couldn't write in all the dictums and loopholes), I believe it would have put us here to see if and how well we could evolve toward this so called higher being. Looking down on others because they do not believe in one interrpretation of god or whatever over another is something that must dissappear from the collective being. Ultimately we all must deal with the, god answered question, one on one. Extreme views in such a malleable item such as religion are our worst attribute. We need to be dilligently evolving.

115

Alpha,

Edinburgh 06/01/2007 19:01:10

Muslim communities relationship with the governemt and local council is a classic example of the tail wagging the dog.

This court case is a milestone in the battle against the unacceptable face of islam ... I wouldn't lose much sleep if the whole lot of them were flew off back to Iran or anyoldstan ... more trouble than their worth.

116

mollyfurie,

California 06/01/2007 19:02:39

I agree that Islam is full of horrors. But so is the Old Testament. Genocide, infanticide, child rape, ethnic cleansing, polygamy, the death penalty for children declared 'disobedient' by their parents, and for women who are believed not to be virgins when they marry. All cheerfully prescribed by 'god!'

And the OT is the basis for Christianity.

AS long as most religions in the world have their basis in this kind of savagery, some fanatics will resort to violence and find ways to oppress others.

When the Christian Reconstructionists over here in the US say that they want the death penalty for homosexuals and 'witches' they are being biblically correct. When Israel robs the Palestinians of their land, they are following what they - and Christianity - believe to be holy instructions. And when Islamists kill infidels, or stone little girls for becoming pregnant before marriage, they are following their own 'holy' instruction book.

Religion is a real poison of the mind. I would never outlaw it. It must be countered - as with any falsehood - with truth and science and reason. Meanwhile, it is much better to keep our civil institutions secular.

117

Listen Ear,

06/01/2007 19:13:20

Oliver, I believe we have to put our own house in order before we start condemming others.

Hamas and Hezbollah are defending their country, pretty musch the same as the French, Dutch, Norwegians did during WW2. I would do the same as they do if Israel was attacking and killing Innocent people in the UK.

Amanadinajad.. what is he accused of? Holocaust Denial? I don't think that's a crime in the UK as yet.
Buiding a Nuke Power Station? Not illegal and No Evidence otherwise.

Assad of Syria..
I have never heard any evidence against him either.

However,,
Over 660,000 Killed in Iraq.. Wounded & Injured could be several times that number. How many peoples homes?

1400 People, mostly innocent civillians in Lebanon

How many slaughtered in Palestine in the past Year?

Look at how the Palestinians are forced to Live!

.. while Blair & Bush Collude with Olmert to allow the Israelis to have a free hand to do what they want in Palestine and Lebanon.

118

James.D,

turenki, Finland 06/01/2007 19:15:31

Pax, the last question I would ask of anyone is ´´What's your religion?´´
It matters not a whit what you or anyone else believes, to me it is a private thing.
I don't think it's possible to make an oath to the collective population, if not to the head of state, (HM Queen) then it must be to the government, which at present is headed by Tony Bliar.
I take exception to you calling me stupid, I will accept your apology anytime.
I do however agree, if they can't or wont fit in with us, then they should F### off

119

Bill Warner,

Florida, the winter home of Arab terrorists. 06/01/2007 19:29:38

Hang "Umran Javed", hang him high just liike Sadam and hang every other Muslim "Brother" that wants to destroy Western society !

I'm fed up with this Muslim trash talking over some silly cartoons or over some TSA profiling, too bad "Brother Muslim Umran" this is the real world and all the terrorists in the last 10 years have been Muslims, so yes, you are going to be profiled at our airports !

So this is how it is "Brother Muslim" you want to blow up the USA or the UK, well you better keep watch over your shoulder, because there are a lot of people just like me that are watching you and your pals 24/7 who can, and will, "take care of business".

Bill Warner
Private Investigator
WBI Inc
Terrorism Research Center
www.wbipi.com

120

mollyfurie,

California 06/01/2007 19:36:45

#120 all too true and we have reaped the whirlwind. Our leaders, partly under the influence of religion, have acted very badly in the Muslim world. And the situation in Israel owes much to relgious conviction as well.

None of that means that western secularism should foster fanaticism in its own midst.

All over Europe and in America in recent years, it has been necessary to pass laws against such forgotten barbarisms as honor killings, forced marriages, and female genital mutilation.

Let's get out of the Mid East, and inform those who wish to migrate to our countries of our set of values, so that they understand that westerners have the right to satirize religion, read and write pretty much what they want, and fatwas are not tolerated.

Probably most European and US, UK, and AU citizens would agree to that. It is the rulers who want the oil. And not to buy, but to control.

121

mollyfurie,

California 06/01/2007 19:41:10

Glad you said IN THE LAST TEN YEARS #122! Because I remember all those clinic bombings and the Oklahoma City bombing. All home grown 100% genuine American redneck, weren't they?

Oh - and since I wasn't born yesterday, I remember very well that the KKK still had real power in the South as late as the 50s.

122

W Smith,

Middle East 06/01/2007 20:01:16

#119 mollyfurie
Sounds like a Palestinian smoke screen for badly behaving muslims!

"Religion is a poison of the mind.."

1) Che Geuvara, the communist, executed people without trial, if he thought you were guilty then it was bye-bye. Stalin,the communist, was responsible for killing more than 100,000 Ukrainians. Fidel Castro has also jailed and killed people without trial.

2) Absence of religion or personal faith doesn't guarantee freedom, justice, peace or prosperity - I take it you never saw the movie The Killing Fields about the atrocities commited by the 'secular' Left in Cambodia.

"..when the Christian Reconstructionists over here.."

Adolf Hitler executed homosexuals but he wasn't a born-again christian fundamentalist - he was Catholic (just like Robert Mugabe). Both these catholics have also done a fair bit of land grabing - have they not?

JFK was Catholic and he was the one that started America's involvement in Vietnam with around 16,000 'military advisers' present in the country. The Vietnam war then escalated under another left-wing democrat (Protestant) President Lyndon Baine Johnson.

Not all of America's wars/atrocities can be blamed on the Protestant Christian Fundamentalists in the Republican Party - correct?

Nice try Molly!

123

Faye,

Scotland 06/01/2007 20:04:17

#27 "Are you incapable of debate". Well Look at your debating skills! Quotes #84, #85 "Don't you dare".

You've proved my point exactly.

Clearly some people can't hack any comment about religion.

The problem with religious extremists seems to be that they go off in a tangent with threats and taunts. Bullyboy tactics don't work.

That's why extremists need to be dealt with.

That's why the state shouldn't pay to allow such breeding grounds to exist in the first place.

Anyone who can't hack comments about religion has a problem.

Did someone mention fish and chips? Fish please, lets leave the chips for folks with problems!

124

Sambo,

The deep south 06/01/2007 20:20:19

Radical muslims are like wild animals, they are usually led like a pack and are riled up by whoever cracks the whip.
Radical muslims are bullies, they bully women and are intolerent to other faiths.

125

mollyfurie,

California 06/01/2007 20:23:46

#126 - actually the Vietnam debacle began with Eisenhower - Kennedy inherited it (as he inherited a number of other pet GOP projects like the Bay of Pigs) and if you watch the Fog of War, you will hear audio evidence that JFK was planning a withdrawal.

Another tape - this time between Macnamara and Johnson, indicates that LBJ 'never agreed' with Kennedy that 'we should just leave' and Macnamara being the tractable nice guy he was, led us on for another 5 years after which Nixon took over.

And of course, you don't have to have religion, per se, to start forrible episodes. But I would argue that Stalin's communism and Hitler's philosophy are definitely a kind of fanatical, authoritarian fundamentalism - using the same mechanisms of the psyche. Back in the 60s I met a doctrinaire Marxist who just went on and on about how Marx was always right, etc. After awhile I asked him about his life previous to Marx. He was a fundamentalist Chritian just as I suspected. The content was very different but his absolutism was exactly the same.

Certainly Pol Pot was a religious fanatic - his faith was so strong he decided all the rivers in the country should be forced into a grid. Affecting that phenomenon entailed trying to make the waterways run uphill. But his faith was strong! And as in times past - the witch burning times, for instance, or the 'conversion of Native Americans to Christ - the deaths were as nothing to the spread of Truth.

126

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 06/01/2007 20:28:33

119....Your damn right!

127

mollyfurie,

California 06/01/2007 20:28:49

WHAT Palestinian smokescreen for 'badly behaving muslims"?? The Palestinians aren't acting any worse than the Israelis - or at least, if they are, they are certainly losing! Because every week sees more Palestinian land under Israel's control, more water taken from them, more cropland bulldozed, more homes destroyed and a few more children 'accidentally' shot.

And have you heard what some of the settlers say? They say that the Palestinians have no rights that they are bound to recognize because THEY are the 'sons of god' and the Palestinians are the SERVANTS of god! (Ignoring the fact that many Palestinians are - or were - Christians - now leaving Bethlehem as fast as they can go.

128

Bill Warner,

Florida, the winter home of Arab terrorists. 06/01/2007 20:30:22

What the hell are you talking about "mollyfurie", people like Umran Javed want to kill all the ;infidels", even left coast wimps like you.

Umran Javed and the rest of his Al-Muhajiroun pals incite these "protests" as a means of calling attention to themselves and aid in recruiting new members who in due time end up as suicide bombers (London Metro/bus bombing).

The only "redneck" is going to be yours and others like you as they are slit by Muslim "Brothers" unless you wake up and get out of your "smoke" filled VW bus to what is really going on.


Bill Warner
www.wbipi.com

129

Jackie,

Fife 06/01/2007 20:31:09

People from the old Commonwealth countries have always came to UK and been made welcome, and made genuine contributions to our country and society. Because of this I have friends who are Hindu, Bhuddist, Jewish and Moslem, or have no religion at all. I am a practicing Christian, and will neither appologise for this or deny my faith. My friends and I do, from time to time, discuss different aspects of our faiths, and all agree that all PC does is cause more trouble and animosity.

Also, for many years, the excuses (or in some cases real reasons) a lot of folk outwith the Commonwealth gave for coming to the UK from Middle East, African, and Asian countries was that they needed political asylum, they were in fear of their lives, and also the lives of their families. OK as a civilised and caring nation we should give shelter to people in times like that. But, once the threat has been removed, these people and their families (regardless of whether they have had children or grandchildren born in this country) should be told ok, threat to you and yours in now gone, go back and help your own country to rebuild. They should not have a choice in this matter. If they really did love their own country they would want to return anyway. Any who did wish to remain here, should be prepared to be British (or Scottish after May)and accept they will have to live accordingly. If the women wish to wear veils as part of their old national costume on high days and holidays fine, but our laws will not be ammended so women can do so as a right.

As to the bleating politicians, do gooders and PC brigade. HOW DARE they allow, or make allowances for anyone who comes to this country and abuses the freedom our parents, grand-parents and at present, sons, husbands, brothers, and sisters fought or are fighting for. In order to spread hate and violence in a way they would not dare to do in their own barbaric countries.

130

mollyfurie,

California 06/01/2007 20:35:01

Excuse me Bill W - do you really think I am defending terrorists or those who make death threats? I am not. I've just seen that face before - and I didn't have to look all that far. Try alabama in the 60s. . . . .

131

Oliver F,

UK 06/01/2007 20:35:05

Listen ear #120

"Hamas and Hezbollah are defending their country"

Yes they are. The innocent women and children on buses blown up by suicide bombers are really threatening Hamas/hezbollah. This self-defence argument can be used with the same justification by Israel too.

"Amanadinajad.. what is he accused of?"

Oh lets see. Financially and militarily supporting terrorist groups throughout the middle east eg Hamas/Islamic Jihad/Hezbollah. Then you have the iranian backing of the shia death squads in Iraq. Need I continue?

"Assad of Syria..
I have never heard any evidence against him either"

Well you cant be listening very well then. Assad and syria are another of the worlds prime supporters of terrorism. They interfere in lebanon with hezbollah and again support Hamas etc. Yes the americans support Israel but if you are going to have the americans tried for genocide lets be even handed and have assad there too.

"1400 People, mostly innocent civillians in Lebanon"

Whats your definition of a civilian? I suspect we may differ on this. You see, I dont consider someone using a machine gun to shoot israelis or fire rockets into israel a civilian. Most of you apologists for terrorism count these in the casualty numbers.

What about the women and children, along with men, in houses containing tens of Qassam rockets that are to be used to fire at israel? Are they really civilians? I would argue not. They are allowing their homes to be used as warehouses of equipment to be used in attacks therefore making them legitimate targets.

"Look at how the Palestinians are forced to Live!"

They are partly responsible for their circumstances. They voted into government Hamas. A terrorist organisation. Now they complain the west wont support them now. Good. They should have thought of that before. Along with rights in a democracy go responsibilities. They exerci

132

Bill Warner,

Florida, the winter home of Arab terrorists. 06/01/2007 20:47:53

Try alabama in the 60s. . ??????

Try 9/11/2001 mollyfurie, try 3/11/2004/ try 7/11/2005, were are not in the 50's or the 60's anymore, it is the infidels (us) against radical islam, it is not a white vs black thing (or person of color) as you lamely infer.

Wake up mollyfurie and put down the pipe.

Bill Warner
www.wbipi.com

133

mollyfurie,

California 06/01/2007 20:51:25

#135 - oh yeah the Palestinians are completely responsible. If, when the Israelis came to take their land, their homes, and their businesses, they just handed them over, NO PROBLEM! But the fools resist (just like Americans say they would if WE were occupied by a foreign power) and of course any actof violence by a lone person willing to die in the course of it is terrorism, while the bombs dropped on villages by a vastly superior military force funded by the richest and most powerful nation in the world is perfectly ok

If you want to see what is and what has beenhappening in Palestine, check this link out and watch the hour-long video - made by Jews and Palestinians: The Iron Wall
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=48663164268763806...
. Watch the strange shape of the barrier taking place - how it manages to enclose illegal settlements and hog the water supply, while destroying farms and villages. Watch the settlers as they harass Palestinians unmolested, and without fear of retribution. See the incredible shrinking land that Israel intends to let the Palestinians have a state on someday. (Yeah right!)

134

Sambo,

The deep south 06/01/2007 20:52:44

Listen mollyfurie, radical islam is targeting your Ass as we speak, so wake up!!

135

mollyfurie,

California 06/01/2007 21:04:24

#136 Don't tell me the old KKK mentality isn't still at work in the South, where hundreds of thousands of black voters were illegally wiped off of the voter rolls! Or in Ohio. Or among so many of our urban police departments. I think McVeigh was as much a terrorist as Osama - only that was TWELVE years ago, so it doesn't fit into your convenient 10-year time frame and apparently doesn't count - for those who were born yesterday. Nor do the abortion clinic bombings and killings of doctors. Or the Under the Banner of Heaven murders, etc.

None of that excuses terrorism or death threats or the attempt to silence cartoonists or brilliant, humanist writers like Salman Rushdie. None of it, either, excuses the totalitarian techniques our government has used against MOVE or Ruby Ridge - and plenty of others as well. It's just that the terrorist mentality isn't unique to Islam There's plenty of it in the roots of Judaism and Christianity - and probably the rest of them, too.

136

Bill Warner,

Florida, the winter home of Arab terrorists. 06/01/2007 21:07:49

Ha, I knew it, mollyfurie in CA is on the pipe, see below;

Medical marijuana card will cost $150 per year
From: mollyfurie@webtv.net
Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 15:14:11 -0700 (PDT)
To: cp@telelists.com
Subject: [cp] $150 medical mj card?

Mind you, I am a Californian - but am wondering - will the state of
Oregon use some of that money to defend marijuana using patients it has
licensed from the Feds? r will you just get another "right" that will
get you put in jail ?

Above quote from "Mile High" mollyfurie in CA, sure seems worried about the weed and the "feds".

bill Warner
www.wbipi.com

137

mollyfurie,

California 06/01/2007 21:11:01

Don't worry Bill, I am at least as sober as you are. Probably more so.

138

mollyfurie,

California 06/01/2007 21:14:52

And, dear friend, someday I predict you will know and maybe love someone with a painful, possibly terminal, disease, unable to eat because of chemo, losing weight precipitously, in constant pain. Or someone with epilepsy, for whom cannabis is the safest and surest preventative or remedy.

But you will hold to your stern ideas and
make sure that they don't slip into illegal drug use won't you? After all, the rountinely prescribed concoctions for those conditions - although they kill more people every year than any non-prescription drug or illegal drug (look up the stats) sometimes almost work, don't they?

139

Listen Ear,

06/01/2007 21:41:51

Oliver F # 135

The difference between the Israeli Soldier and Hamas / Hezbollah.. is the Israelis have F15 and F16 Jets, Drones with Missiles, Helicopter Gunships, Tanks, armoured cars, Armoured Bulldozers. Multiple Rocket Launchers, cluster bombs and Navy Ships to attack and kill innocent Civillians in Palestine and Lebanon.

Hamas and Hezbollah have the odd AK47, explosives, home made squibs and their flesh and blood.

Everyone always refers to the "Arab" suicide bomber that blew himself up in a bus or outside a disco..
... What about the Israelis that have Bombed, Shelled and Killed thousands upon thousands of Women and Children.

What about the thousands of homes bulldozed.. just so some immigrant Jews can steal Palestinian land.

Then you say Amanadinajad is backing Hamas/Islamic Jihad/Hezbollah..
I think you will find funding for these organisations is coming from within IRAQ, from Saudi and other Arab and Muslim Countries...

Again, you say Syria support Hammas and Hezbollah..

If they have done this, ask why?
Israel has annexed most of Palestine, invaded and killed over 1400 innocent people, mostly women and children in Lebanon.

If these countries did not get support from other Arab Countries, the chances are, Israel would have completely annexed them by now.

Look at Hammas.. a few hundred armed civillians.. scattered here and there.. Home made rockets
Look at Hezbollah.. a few thousand civillians that have learnt to fire anti-tank weapons.

.. this is hardly being funded by anyone in a manner that can threaten Israel..

The USA is sending hundreds of Millions $$$ worth of Military hardware to the Israelis and the US is spending Billions themselves.

So..
we had best stick to Arresting Blair, Bush, Olmert and their Accomplicers and leave the Poor Protesters alone.

140

Oliver F,

UK 06/01/2007 21:54:48

Listen Ear #143

"What about the Israelis that have Bombed, Shelled and Killed thousands upon thousands of Women and Children."

As I said above, listen ear, your definition of civilian probably differs greatly from mine. You argue they are "protesters" but I am sure the innocent israeli men, women and children on buses and discos would say different. This romantic bullsh*t about the palestinians being freedom fighters is nonsense. That may hold true if they attacked the israeli soliders but they attack innocent, unarmed civilians. Note: not people living in homes full of qassam rockets.

"Again, you say Syria support Hammas and Hezbollah..

If they have done this, ask why?"

So you are now admitting that syria has supported hezbollah and hamas? Thank you. That was my point. Syria and Iran are just as bad as the US and Uk. The only difference is the side they choose to back.

"What about the thousands of homes bulldozed.. just so some immigrant Jews can steal Palestinian land."

Wouldnt those be the omes being bulldozed that were being used to smuggle in arms or the homes of suicide bombers? In my opinion, fair enough.

As for the "wall" I will admit that some of the routing choices of the wall may be highly questionable but Israel has a right to defend herself from suicide bombers and the wall is an attempt at that.

141

Scot Easy,

New York City 06/01/2007 21:58:29

All this sound and fury over one tiny demo? It seems to me a bit of a hurricane in a hubble-bubble. We shouldn't go ballisitic every time a couple of babies get all red in the face about something, should we? A few loonies shouting about bombing the Little Mermaid isn't the same thing as, let's say, flying aeroplanes into tall buildings. Is it?

In the old days, a couple of Rebus's woolly-suits would have given the bomber babies a warning and hauled them off for a night in the cells, and serve them right. But huffing and puffing about conspiracy to murder just makes them seem more important than they are, makes them seem persecuted and turns them into martyrs. We really don't need any more of those!

As for those tartan thugs and Irn-bru bigots above...I'd pop them in a cell with the bomber babies. Maybe they'd learn something from each other.

.

142

,

06/01/2007 22:16:12
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
143

mollyfurie,

California 06/01/2007 22:19:52

#144 "As for the "wall" I will admit that some of the routing choices of the wall may be highly questionable but Israel has a right to defend herself from suicide bombers and the wall is an attempt at that."

Oh that's not the half of it and you know it. The theft of Palestinianland has been ongoing, through ceasefires and intifadas and 'land for peace' deals, from the beginning and without cease, and many in Israel don't even deny that they want ALL of it. THEY say god gave it to them. Isn't that nice? So any person of the Jewish faith from any country in the world can go there and live on Palestinian land preferably, while Palestinians who were born there have no right of return, and husbands and wives who live on opposite sides of the wall cannot live together.

The Israelis have killed a lot more Palestinians than the other way around. Of course, THEY have an airforce and a nuclear arsenal, if they feel like suicide bombing themselves.

144

Harry Carnie,

British Columbia, Canada. 06/01/2007 22:25:38

#139 mollyfurie.. agree, cannabis should be legallized.( The "nonthinkers" stop this from happening)
But ..closer to the topic..in SPITE of what ANY religious belivers say. MAN IS AN ANIMAL.

He IS NOT INTELLIGENT.(only in rare cases) He is however, incredibly resourceful and CUNNING.
Religion is ONE of the excuses that is used to torture ,maim ,and kill his fellow being.

There are A SMALL AMOUNT OF WONDERFUL ( and to a degree ,intelligent ) people in the world .

These individuals,have a GENUINE concern for their fellow man, AND are not motivated by "reward" or "punishment" from some make believe "GOD".
(sounds as though you are one..??More power to you!)

145

Menzies,

06/01/2007 22:35:50

#13 Faramars: if he didn't intend to incite murder and killing then he should have used other words or kept his mouth shut. He didn't do either. His own words have condemned him as they constitute hate mongering and incitement to do harm to others by the legal standards of our society.

Tell me your society would have been as tolerant, just and forgiving as you are asking this one to be, if a white male had stood in your capital city yelling "Bomb Iran" or other "slogans" or "soundbites"? I'd be very surprised if the poor sod lived five minutes after the first yell.

He wasn't found guilty because he's a muslim, Mr. Choudary, but because he crossed the line and abused the freedoms and privileges of this society. He broke the law. Period.

146

mollyfurie,

California 06/01/2007 22:58:28

#148"" Talk of Palestinians defending "their" land is strange considering that there never was a country called "Palestine"."

Funny. The Romans called it Palestine. The Egyptians still call the Palestinians Philistines - ring a bell? The Philistines, Canaanites, and other ethnic groups now extinct for some odd reason, were the inhabitants of Israel when the first Israelis got there. Read your bible - it's all there. They were ordered by god and Moses to slaughter the inhabitants and take their cattle, goods, houses, and especially and always, their virgin girls. But they were supposed to dash the brains of the 'little ones' out against stones. Well that was then, this is now.

If there was no Palestine, why did Anne Frank in her diary mention that her sister's ambition was to be a midwife in Palestine?

Here are just a few Zionist quotes from history - if history matters:

Israel Zangwill, who had visited Palestine in 1897 and came face-to-face with the demographic reality, stated :
"Palestine proper has already its inhabitants. The pashalik of Jerusalem is already twice as thickly populated as the United States, having fifty-two souls to the square mile, and not 25% of them Jews ..... [We] must be prepared either to drive out by the sword the [Arab] tribes in possession as our forefathers did or to grapple with the problem of a large alien population, mostly Mohammedan and accustomed for centuries to despise us."
..............................................
In an article published by Ben-Gurion in 1918, titled "The Rights of the Jews and others in Palestine," he conceded that the Palestinian Arabs have the same rights as Jews. He explained that Palestinians had these rights since they had inhabited the land "for hundreds of years". He stated in the article:

"Palestine is not an empty country . . . on no account must we injure the rights of t

147

Mr Intellect,

06/01/2007 23:32:34

150 The people you talk of as having a "GENUINE concern for their fellow man, AND are not motivated by "reward" or "punishment" from some make believe "GOD".", are in my experience, known as atheists.

If the world was Atheistic, we'd live in relative peace.

Pax, you are a twisted bigot, with a very limited, and very transparent agenda.

148

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06/01/2007 23:55:00
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
149

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06/01/2007 23:57:50
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 266442, Article id was mapped to record!
150

Rabhairt,

The Land Downunder 07/01/2007 00:11:32

TO 151 MENZIES, YOU HAVE GOT IT RIGHT, THE FACTS ARE AS YOU SAY ,NO IFS NO BUTS, THE LAW IS THE LAW AND WHO KNOWS WHO WAS IN THE CROWD HE WAS INCITING, HE SHOULD HAVE ENGAGED HIS BRAIN BEFORE OPENING HIS MOUTH.

151

Pam 2,

07/01/2007 00:57:58

Palestine has never been a country, an autonomous entity. There is no such thing as a Palestinian culture or language. There has never been a land called Palestine governed by Palestinians. Romans were the first to use the name Palestine. The area was ruled by Rome, Islamic and Christian crusaders, the Ottoman Empire and then briefly by the British who latched on to the name Palestine to cover various areas of the Holy Land. The Palestinians are Arabs and it was after the war of 1967 that Yassar Arafat prompted by other Arab leaders reinvented history and the Palestinians were born along with a mythical land called Palestine.

Only a small percentage of the present day Palestinian Arabs are descended from Arabs who lived in the area for centuries.

Thousands of Jews had never left Israel in the Diaspora but remained there generation after generation. Different rulers came and went but they remained in their land which they never gave up or renounced.

When Jews from other lands started to come back to their land in the 1800s the area prospered. Arabs flooded into the area from neighbouring Arab countries, mostly Syria,to take the jobs that became available and enjoy better standard of living than what they'd known in their own lands.

Most of todays Palestinians are/or are the descendants of Arabs who migrated from other countries to get work in the Holy Land because the Jews had brought prosperity to the region.

152

SILVANA,

Glasgow 07/01/2007 01:10:08

>PAM

Thank you for a bit of sanity and a correct view of Israel in relation to the so-called Palestinians.

>MollyFurie

Away and bile yer heid lassie.........

153

SILVANA,

Glasgow 07/01/2007 01:16:07

SUBJECT:

"Protest man found guilty over cartoon death threats"

Just a gentle reminder :0)

154

Stewart_in_Oz,

queensland 07/01/2007 01:38:22

Never seen so much Hot Air condensed into print.
I would say from observation at a hopefully safe distance that Britain (and the Western world) is in a state of flux and if you don't sort out your problem areas very soon, it will be well and truly fluxed.Trouble is we have a growing similar problem here. (See beach riot in Sydney, Land Rights, 'gay' Rights etc) At least what we do have is lots of space.

155

mollyfurie,

California 07/01/2007 02:05:26

Even if there was never a "palestine" which there demonstrably was, and it was referred to as Palestine by early Zionists, there were people living there, who had farmed their lands and practiced their various religions for centuries. Does that give immigrants from other nations the right to take their land, destroy thousands of their villages, and drive them out? The Jews lived there for centuries, it is true - not as a majority or even a dominant minority.

Something similar happened to the native population of America. And THEY never had a recognized state either. Was the genocide and confinement to concentration camps deserved because they did not have a nation stae?

And of course, the Christian contingent has been there for the past 2000 years, maintaining their own holy spots, etc.
But it is preferable to focus on the Muslims I suppose, since we all hate them. Palestinians were a pretty secular, liberal lot. The treatment they have received at the hands of Israelis has brought out the most fanatical elements and given credit to them. The indifference with which their trials have been met no doubt has convinced them that their only hope lies with terrorism.

The idea of Israel is entirely based on the gift of the land (which then belonged to the Philistines - Palestinians - and others) by a mythological deity, which, among all the people of the earth, had taken to its bosom this one remote tribe - or so they say! The truth is that neither in biblical times, nor in historical times, did the Jews come to an empty and uninhabited land, and their justification for purloining it is based purely on a claim of ethnic, religious or racial superiority. Fine - but why on earth should the rest of us honor it?

Why?

156

Cheryl,

07/01/2007 02:08:53

#18 - "That bunch are always looking for some excuse to riot or bring down the west..it was a cartoon, for God's(anybody's) sake...as in joke. As i have said before, if the tables were turned..."

Who is "That bunch"? Muslims in general? Wouldn't surprise me if there was a racist, narrow-minded attitude behind that statement (though I'd hope you meant the extremists). I've heard many stories from my Muslim friend in London that sound like accounts of how things used to be for blacks in the American south (and still are in areas). It is the extremists who want to take down the West. As for looking for an excuse, they don't need to look. The disaster in Iraq is full of material to be mined and Israel is always good for getting hot-blooded young men stirred up.

The Danish cartoons were offensive to many Muslims, regardless of how conservative or liberal they are. That there were protests doesn't surprise me and there'd be protests if cartoons portraying Christ in a way highly offensive to Christians were published. You'd hear protest from Jews if Moses and Elijah were made fun of. It may have been "just a cartoon" but it was legitimately offensive to some. I don't think the cartoons should've been published, as they drew any humor from stereotypes, and definitely not reprinted in areas with a significant Muslim population. To reprint something that will be highly, highly offensive to a significant portion of the population is wrong. It shows a total lack of respect for those who follow a different path, as well as insensitivity and bigotry. An overwhelming number of Muslims are peaceful, law-abiding people who respect and tollerate opinions and beliefs different from theirs. The same respect and tollerance should be given to them.

That said, those who went beyond peaceful protests deserve to be punished to the full extent of the law. All that does is further cement opinions and prejudices that Muslims b

157

StewartB,

Bristol 07/01/2007 03:11:04

158 Silvania: I totally agree with you re: 157s (Pam) comments. It's refreshing to have some correct, unbiased information on these boards. Some of the other comments re: the Palestinians just shows you how misinformation put out by the propagandists can be so easily swallowed.

158

mollyfurie,

California 07/01/2007 03:37:22

And will anyone dare - or bother - to watch The Iron Wall?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=48663164268763806...
Because here is the incontrovertable truth.

159

mollyfurie,

California 07/01/2007 03:40:17

Oh nevermind - just go to google videos and google The Iron Wall - 57 minutes long, narrated by both Israelis and Palestinians, soldiers, housewives, historians. See for yourself.

160

Scullion,

Canada 07/01/2007 03:44:13

#157
Please read the Balfour Declaration and its mention of Palestine. He wrote, "...the establishment in Palestine of a National Home for the Jewish People..."
#162
My right to mock whatever I want is inalienable. Spoofs of Christ and Moses abound-I just watched a TV comedy show showing both of them in a wrestling ring fighting for spiritual dominance and ultimately being beaten by L. Ron Hubbard. Could have been funnier but it wasn't hate.
Humour will be the weapon of choice against all religious fascists. It is undefeatable and crippling.

161

The Wizard,

OZ 07/01/2007 05:09:50

The UK will be overun by immigrants the most dangerous being the religious fanatics.
Many years ago people thought Enoch Powell was wrong when he wanted to repatriate 'unwelcomes'
I wonder what they think now.
I predict civil war in the UK within 25 years.
I am just glad I will not be around to see it.

162

Cristo,

USA 07/01/2007 05:19:21

First of all, I would like to give my regards to all very good commentators, like INFIDEL-- you are one of the "Best", for giving us a valiable information about the "common enemy" of the civilized world. You gave us encouraging comments that "will enlighten" us and other "symphatizers" of dangerous"Cult" Islam. I hope that Mohammedans (Mooselims) will see clearly the "Thruth" and help these blind followers to "Free" from this cult. For SANNY of Portugal--- You are also good for striking "Faramars" of Iran (he ran).The "Thruth" hurts him because you are telling the thruth. I guess his "Holy book" doesn't help him because he don't understand the "Surahs". I have comment for "Faramars of Iran"-- Even "Umran" is a British Citizen, He cannot be deported by host country? 99.9% of Mooselims who became citizen,they are not "Loyal" to the host country , their loyalty is their"Religion(?)" And I strongly believe why they migrate to "Infidel Country" because of their goal, i.e. "Islamization". And you said, " Bad or Good death penalty is recognized in Iranian legal system? you are free to critisize this institution? In Islamic country, "Sharia Law" is their legal basis, you are not allowed to criticise your "Sharia" law. It is painful to accept the truth and it makes you mad. I suggest "Learn more" about the "Roots" of the topic being discussed, because it will "Boomerang" to you and it hurts.

163

AndyM,

Columbia, SC, USA 07/01/2007 05:41:18

Holy crap, mollyfurie! Take your pill. You are obviously a day or two behind in your regimen.

BTW, has anyone here said that Palestine doesn't exist? It is the so-called Palestinians that do not exist. Zionists a hundred years ago called themselves Palestinians, because of their connection to that place. But today's so-called Palestinians are just Arabs that no one wants. Jordan doesn't want them. Egypt doesn't want them. Of course they want them all to move to Tel Aviv.

Heck, I could call myself a Palestinian. I must be related to someone over there... eighty-first cousin, sixty-third removed or some such...

Of course, I would never do such a thing. Why would I want to associate myself with the people who danced with joy on September 11, 2001?

Excuse me, though. No time to continue. My apologies, Ms. Left Coast Elitist. Y'know, me being a Southerner and all... crosses to burn, people to lynch, etc.

164

StewartB,

07/01/2007 06:12:11

168 AndyM - You beat me to it but I would like to add a few comments. It is true Palestine has never been the name of a nation or state. It is a geographical term for an area which under British rule encompassed southern Syria, part of TransJordan and Egypt, and the area that became the State of Israel.

The use of the term 'Palestinian' for an Arab ethnic group is a modern political invention which has no factual basis and did not have any international credibility before 1967.

165

mollyfurie,

California 07/01/2007 07:10:45

Gee Stewart, the Zionists in their writings ADMITTED that Palestine was already inhabited by - ummmm - for want of a better term, and since 'Palestinians' is politically incorrect - mzblyhgpists, already - and for many centuries too.The bride is beautiful, one early Zionist said, but she is already married to another man.
But, as Wallace Beery said in a film about Pancho Villa, "We Keel Heem. . . . ."

These mzblyhgpists (Muslims, Christians, and Druze, and a fair number of refuse-to-states, etc. - the region is rich in weird religion) were sadly acknowledged as the main obstacle to the great project of replacing the then-current occupants, and faemers for perhaps millennia, with Zionist Jews from Europe.

No problem. All you had to do was prove that, by the word of some ancient mythology, the Jews had a mandate to replace any and all mzblyhgpists by any means necessary, including ethnic cleansing, terror, etc. And no damn nameless mzblyhgpists - no matter how ancient their occupation of the land was - could withstand the force of the stupid bronze age mythology of THE HOLY BIBLE - that all of Europe had been conned into accepting! How could simple occupation of the land compete with "Divine" order?

So the minority Jewish population of mzblyhgpists-land had to be augmented in order to eventually expel the mzblyhgpists and create the state of Israel, which in fact was NOT the original name of the country - but who cares? The original inhabitants were only mzblyhgpists - and according to biblical injunction, were perfectly subject to slaughter, expulsion, rape and rapine.

It's OK, though, because they AREN'T Palestinians. Not PEOPLE or anything. They're just mzblyhgpists - and who cares about THEM?

166

Krishna,

Udupi, India 07/01/2007 07:23:58

Sir/Madam:
Islamic jihadi terrorists are foot soldiers trying to terrorize the non-Muslims with reckless bombings all over the world.

Umran Javed and Anjem Choudary are the direct supporters of the evil doers.

See the poor laws: Anjem Choudary should have been convicted long time back. He is using the free speech, religious freedom to subvert the British system, values, laws and tolerance.

Then we have the moderates, who use different cloaks, languages and lectures. They want to have the cake and eat it too. Stay in a secular democracy, enjoy the fruits fully (in many cases as special citizens) and do, talk and write whatever they like. Of course, when the time comes, they are not around and they will join the rest of the Muslims.

Right in this thread, we have examples of moderate Muslims!

See the excuses of Muslim "moderates" shooting off in tangent: Israel, Palestine, Iraq, Bush, Blair and so on.

Those Muslims with pan-Islamic loyalty of all varieties (overt and covert) will sabotage secular democracies in different ways. They won't leave the US, UK and Europe unless the laws are changed and thrown out!

Regards,

167

David O. Farrell,

San Antonio, Texas 07/01/2007 09:05:47

Currently in the USA you cannot falsely yell fire in a
theatre without legal repercussions. Other than that freedom of speech (and expression) is still rightly protected by our constitution.
I like neo-fascist, Islamo-fascist and other such filth to be able to express themselves plainly as it has educational value for society. I also like to speak plainly when I'm expressing my opinions without be-
ing accused or arrested for advocating genocide by
self annoited or state appointed thought police.
I hope none of these comments have broken British law.

168

Louisa,

Clinging to the wreckage = UK 07/01/2007 13:00:47

The Wizard - how right you are, how right he was.

David O'Farrell - good point.

Krishna from India in his comment and added to the references recommended by Infidel etc. to expose such a mass of entrenched, nescient, murderous and rabid misanthropy - that that those of us that do not/will not have or accept Islam and it's brain-washed victims - are being systematically outnumbered as the fundamental purpose of this imbecilic manner of enforced behaviour (Islam) infiltrates humanity like a terminal untreated cancer. However, our strength lies in knowing what to expect and preparing to do something about it if only our politically correct do-gooder, 'inclusive' and blinkered elected numpties would do the necessary and sufficient surgery to eradicate it for ever. As cancer is parasitic in it's exploitation of opportunity and will metastasize - so the spread of this evil anti-humanity behaviour must be stopped and removed. It has already reached pandemic proportions.

The sooner non-Muslims can galvanize through educating themselves as to the true purpose and affects of Islam, drawing Muslims into debate - and as David O'Farrell suggests giving them the opportunity to self-incriminate themselves, using humour, science, historical fact, democratic liberty, due internationally acceptable legal process, secular education for ALL children, sufficient and potent 'homeland' surviellance etc. NOW - perhaps it's not too late?

169

AndyM,

Columbia, SC, USA 07/01/2007 14:14:40

What amuses, and disturbs, me is how mollyharpie and her ilk can use their vaunted compassion for the so-called Palestinians as a means to attack the Israeli state. One could almost forget that she lives in a country that once belonged to another people. Granted, I live in that same country, but I am not the one basking in self-satisfied moral superiority.

Please, someone find me a country where the people living there are the only ones who ever lived there since time began. And why is it that the lands conquered by Muslims, Islam being a relatively new religion as these things go, are considered by some to be once and for all Muslim? Perhaps we should give them back Al-Andalus and be done with it. The people currently living in Spain might object, but wasn't the Reconquista immoral on its face?

When one applies standards to the state of Israel but is unwilling to apply them to any other modern state, well, that person might as well just go ahead and buy her sun-wheel armband. Maybe mollyharpie's can be rainbow colored, to reflect her California consciousness.

170

Simon T.,

Loonyville, USA. 07/01/2007 14:37:08

A Rabbi walks into a pub with a frog on his shoulder. The bartender asks him "Where did you get that?"

The frog replied; "Brooklyn, there's hundreds of 'em!"

171

Malcolm Rose,

France 07/01/2007 17:01:25

Pax Vobiscum 16: Catholics are not discriminated against in England. Under English law catholics are the members of "the one true catholic and apostolic church", the Church of England. Followers of the Pope are discriminated against.
___________________________________________

Listen Ear 143: the Israel/Hezbollah, etc. conflict may not be as unequal as you think. In Lebanon Hezbollah had some RPG-29s (google RPG-29 for more info). One of these low-cost one-man weapons can take out any of the World's most advanced armoured vehicles and tanks. The battlefield dominance of the tank, which broke the stalemate of WWI and characterised WWII is gone. A new era has begun. Better get used to it.
___________________________________________

Pocket Dictionary 9: Yes, but getting stoned in Edinburgh has a different meaning from that in Saudi and Iran.

172

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07/01/2007 17:07:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
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173

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07/01/2007 17:10:02
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174

mollyfurie,

California 07/01/2007 17:20:06

Palestine is actually a Christian nation as well as Muslim you know - with, quite literally, one of the oldest Christian populations in the world, and the only agreed on 'holy place' for all Christians.

But I wasn't thinking in terms of Palestine being a "muslim country for all time' at all. I was thinking of the secularist and capitalist biew. That people (whatever their religion) should not be expelled from their inherited or purchased homes and land and businesses - without compensation too!

And I certainly don't - I have mentioned it - approve of the genocide of the Native Americans. Terrible as that era was, no one in living memory experienced it.

We DO now live in an era of international law, however. Israelis are very rightly still collecting money from Germany and Switqerland in accordance with that law, for the lives and homes and businesses and labor that were stolen from them during the holocaust.

And Israel breaks that international law every day that it continues to build on occupied territory. And the theft of the land and livelihoods of the indigenous people of Palestine continues apace, with no redress at all for those whose lives are being diminished by the theft.

Only the US (and a few of its territories), maybe the UK, and Israel do not acknowledge that international law is being broken and that human rights are being trampled on. But that is enough.

So SOME people must obey international law, while others are exempt. Why? Well the settlers, who often throw stones at Palestinian kids going to school and swear they will eventually have all of the land in 'Greater Israel' would say it is because they are the Chossen People - and unless they choose to grant them, no one else has any rights.

I don't see why any of these religious delusions - including Christian delusions such as the current one about a nuclear war beginning in the Mid East and leading to Jesus' return - should affect sane people an

175

Harry Carnie,

British Columbia, Canada. 07/01/2007 18:03:20

#78, Your comment..INTELLIGENCE! wonderful and rare..more power to you as well!

176

Heilan laddie,

Inverness 07/01/2007 22:32:16

# 162 Cheryl. I dont care what you say. If any cartoons were printed poking fun at Christians, Jews or Hindu's there would be no world wide protest calling for the beheading of people. We are far to civilised for that. Maybe a few people would utter some word.
When the Monty Pythons "Life of Brian" was shown all round the world making fun of Christianity not a word was uttered.
As the saying goes "Not all Muslims are terrorists but all terrorista are Muslims".

177

Gibby,

Ottawa,Canada 07/01/2007 22:53:59

To date there as been no terrorist attacks in Canada
There is no need for them . The goverment just bows to political pressure and gives up our rights and customs to these who shout the loudest.
The latest thing I read was that Simon Fraser University in Vancouver was removing the two crosses from its Coat of Arms . Watch out Scotland
the next thing you know you will have to remove all vestiges of St Andrews Cross

178

AndyM,

Columbia, SC, USA 07/01/2007 23:11:58

Why am I not surprised that mollyharpie, after all of her long-winded arguments and statements of so-called facts, would conclude with an attack on men?

She did not say she cannot understand why some people do such and such. No, it is some men.

At least she is more honest about her contempt for men (and for all us poor, unenlightened, bigoted Southerners, external or internal genitalia notwithstanding) than she is about her contempt for Jews.

179

mollyfurie,

California 07/01/2007 23:32:39

Well it is very simple Andy - on every board I've ever posted to the ones who do the name-calling are men. Ask THEM.

And I have no contempt for Jews. They invented secular humanism, after all, and are in the forefront of every human rights movement - including those that seek a meaningful, lasting, just peace in the Middle East.When I criticize Israel I am in the best of company - the company of many outstanding Jewish leaders and thinkers.

I don't even mind southerners, except for the ones, like Maxxam Corporation, who come here to California to chop down our precious redwoods and drill for oil off of our coasts. I believe that the references to the south that I made had to do with the civil rights problems that plagued the south right through the 60s. Remember? Lynchings, the murder of civil rights workers (Jews, as I recall) from up north, the dogs set on demonstrators trying to get the vote?

Go ahead - blame all that on California.

180

TUG of Glasgow, Kentucky,

07/01/2007 23:46:40

It has been insightfulfollowing the history, legal and religious discussions. As a Southern American of Scottish heritage, it was good to find out that we are the only homophobes in the world. I guess I did not know this because of being an Episcopalian, our segment of the Anglican Communion was chastised by the Archbishop (of York) and most of the other global diocese, especially the African Church because of ordaining an openly gay bishop in New Hampshire. But living amongst the nuts and ignorance that in what several history books have termed the Celtic South (seeks alliteration)this may be understandable.

Of course in our defense, it might help to know how we got here. My ancestors where given the opportunity to leave Scotland for three major reasons. One as Jacobites, seems they supported a catholic King (what happen there Pax?), the other the clearings, and third the first uprising in Northern Ireland (a Protestant thing?). Seems we have a problem with authority, so those causes of exile where the result of our choice. I guess.

What really hurt was the clearings. It is hard on your self esteem to realize that your ancestors where considered worth less than sheep. That could probably screw with your world view.

What is neat is the cool names we get called,red neck-implying field labor; work is evil, shit-kicker - farm work, and cracker - low rent, lacking in character. This one is said to have Keltic roots.
One tale as to why we are called “Hillbillies” is that many who ended up in the Celtic South were supporters of William of Orange. If we had the tradition of a class system I guess we would be “HillWilliams.” I am not sure this would improve self esteem anyway we would prefer to be called Appalachian-Americans.

I must admit however that George Bush pretends to be the result of all this inbreeding. However, he is lying (as usual) he is a rich and privileged New Englander. Perhaps the notion of inbreed will help i

181

TUG of Glasgow, Kentucky,

08/01/2007 00:00:00

Gibby

Check the news, Canadian had an aborted threat at the end of the summer (2006). However it does make your point and everyone else, especially Infidel, Dar ul harb.Why was a Nation that has not harmed any one be put in harms way? We might ask Norwegians from events a few years back.

182

Heilan laddie,

Inverness 08/01/2007 00:02:20

# 186. Your doing just fine, very well put. There's not many Americans that know anything of Scottish history let alone that of William of Orange or "King Billy".

One thing you forgot to mention about Bush though. He does resemble the banjo player from the movie Deliverence,

183

AndyM,

Columbia, SC, USA 08/01/2007 00:05:21

I was just pointing out the irony of men=namecallers. Perhaps irony is not your strong suit. Let me explain. Calling someone a namecaller is namecalling. And saying that all namecallers come from the male ranks is sexist namecalling. Think about it a while. It might come to you.

And, by the way, Ms. "Don't tell me the old KKK mentality isn't still at work in the South," lynchings and the murder of Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner all happened before I was born. And no one was happier about the conviction of Edgar Ray Killen than I was.

Many of us down here, who do not share with our grandparents their attitudes on race, don't care for being painted with your broad brush. A few voting irregularities do not a Klansman make.

"Blame all that on California"? I love California. I have family in the Bay Area. What I hate is, as I say, self-satisfied moral superiority, which you have in spades.

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mollyfurie,

California 08/01/2007 00:07:55

#186 And don't forget, you're not a Californian either, and so not infected by some undefined, rainbow colored, new-age madness.

As for the Bushes, they like to trace their ancestry to the British royals. I read somewhere recently that every human on earth bears some relation to royalty, so thaqt's not at all unusual. It is who you "like" to claim on your family tree that really matters. I claim descent from Rob Roy. . . . . . . '-p

185

AndyM,

Columbia, SC, USA 08/01/2007 00:34:49

O God help me... the California chick and I are related.

MacGregor Despite Them!

186

mollyfurie,

California 08/01/2007 00:51:42

well Andy - or Andrea as the case may be - when I am called childish names like mollyharpie or mile high molly by a woman I will broaden my view of who does the name calling.

And while you accused me wrongly of contempt for Jews, did you consider the contempt being shown for the apparently nationality-free, rights-free, indigenous inhabitants of the non-state of Palestine? They had no nation state - at least at the time to which those who hold them in contempt refer, and no nationality. They had property, homes, fields and orchards dating back for hundreds of years, they had a history no one cared about at all, but no property rights that Israel was bound to respect.

Some of them were Muslims, and some were not. Some were Christians in one of the world's oldest Christian communities. Some were Druzes or some other minority religion. But Muslim will do if you want to completely discount their humanity - as has been done on this very board.

Should they object to the theft of their land, should they fight or attempt to exact revenge (as our own Celtic ancestors often did) they are only terrorists. To defend their rights is to display 'contempt for Jews!' Because in this narrow universe, ONLY the Jews' rights in Israel are matters of importance!

Unfortunately, people - no matter how discounted, no matter how ignored or abused or ignored - will find ways to assert themselves. Our forebears in Ireland and Scotland found ways to fight against the greatest empire in their time.

Much of the anger may be dissipated now, but i was raised by people who seriously blamed the English for every evil in the world, and who spoke of Cromwell's adventures in Ireland as if they happened yesterday.

The Palestinians are not going away. They have nowhere to go anyway. Do you think their memory is any shorter than the Scots' or the Irish refugees from the famine?

Only now are 800 years, more or less, of Irish/English warring coming to a

187

Khalim Massoud,

Washington, DC 29/03/2009 18:09:03
Bill Warner from Florida is a pathological liar, an Islamophobe, and an anti-Semite. His distortions, exaggerations, fabrications, and bigotry are meticulously documented at http://insanepi.blogspot.com/.
Please visit http://insanepi.blogspot.com/ before using Bill Warner as a source.

Khalim Massoud
President
Muslims Against Sharia

 

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