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Carbon capture could be bigger than oil and gas to Scots economy

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Published Date: 02 May 2009
SCOTLAND is on the cusp of leading the world in a revolution in energy technology that could massively reduce carbon emissions and transform the economy.
As previously revealed in The Scotsman, a document was unveiled yesterday that showed the North Sea could be used to store unwanted carbon dioxide (Co2) emissions from power stations for at least 200 years.

Academics suggested unwanted emissions f
rom the UK and north west Europe could be safely stored under the North Sea. There could be potential to take up 2,000 years' of Scotland's unwanted Co2, they said.

The research by Edinburgh University, sponsored by the Scottish Government, could be the blueprint for an industry that may outstrip oil and gas in importance to the future economy – and bring an estimated 10,000 jobs, it was claimed yesterday.

The report found the potential capacity exists to store up to 46,000 million tonnes of Co2 in rocks beneath the Scottish waters of the North Sea.

First Minister Alex Salmond, a long-term supporter of carbon capture storage technology (CCS), hailed the report as "ground-breaking" and a milestone in Scotland's future.

"The development of CCS in Scotland, including power stations and storage networks, has the potential to support 10,000 jobs," he said.

Mr Salmond said that Scotland is well placed to lead the world in the technology because of its geological assets – mainly former oil and gas fields and an abundance of porous rock, known as saline aquifer.

He added that Scotland was helped by its expertise from the oil industry, detailed knowledge of the North Sea and collection of experts in the field.

He said: "Scotland can be a world leader in this technology of the future."

Malcolm Ricketts, principal carbon analyst at energy consultancy Wood Mackenzie, said the report showed Scotland has a huge commercial potential in carbon capture.

"This has the opportunity to create a new offshore industry, with Scotland benefiting in terms of knowledge and skills," he said.

"The key is to position the first trials on power plants, which will help to develop a pipeline infrastructure for future CCS developments."

However, a warning note was struck by some environmentalists that CCS – also known as "clean coal" – is an unproven technology outside the laboratory at industrial levels and could have a negative environmental impact.

Green MSP Patrick Harvie said: "The First Minister proudly claims that 'Scotland is ready for carbon capture' but he forgets to add that carbon capture isn't ready for us.

"Nowhere does he admit that carbon capture on this scale exists only on the drawing board. It may make an important contribution one day, but it's a disgrace that Scottish ministers have already given their backing to new coal-fired power stations before carbon capture and storage has been demonstrated anywhere in the world."

Liam McArthur, the Liberal Democrats' energy spokesman, warned: "It remains that the best kind of emission is no emission at all. Ministers must ensure that whatever potential Scotland has for developing carbon capture does not come at the expense of investment in clean, green, renewable energy."

Other groups welcomed Mr Salmond's statement yesterday. Friends of the Earth Scotland and the World Wildlife Fund in Scotland both welcomed the report as a major development in tackling a future environmental disaster.

Duncan McLaren, Friends of the Earth Scotland's chief executive, said: "The First Minister has today taken an important step forward in heralding a move away from unabated coal power by supporting technology to capture emissions."

But he went on to remind Mr Salmond that carbon capture is "only half the equation" and appealed to the Scottish Government not to allow any new coal-powered stations which do not include CCS technology.

And he endorsed ScottishPower's bid to have the first industrial experimental site for carbon capture at Longannet power station in Fife.

If successful in a UK government competition, ScottishPower believes it can be up and running by 2014, and that the technology they develop could then be attached to the 50,000 fossil fuel power stations around the world.

Frank Mitchell, generation director at ScottishPower, said this development in itself could make Scotland the centre of excellence for the technology around the world.

Next stage – power firms fight it out for funding

THE next step in the development of technology to capture and store carbon dioxide will be the result of a UK government competition for funding.

Four power companies are competing for about £1 billion to pay for carbon capture projects they hope to build in the UK.

ScottishPower is believed to be a front-runner with its plans to fit carbon capture technology at Longannet Power Station in Fife.

Unlike its main rivals, ScottishPower would not need to build a new power station but would fit the technology to the existing plant.

ScottishPower thinks that the project can be up and running by 2014 and hopes to start using the capacity within the North Sea to store the waste .

It is important that the technology is proven and working by about 2025 or many coal-powered stations could have to close under EU pollution rules.

The academics and companies behind carbon-capture research in Scotland want further evaluation of storage in the North Sea and government money for R&D.

Although some infrastructure is in place, in the form of pipes which transported oil and gas from the North Sea, more will need to be built at a cost of around £700 million to £1.67 billion.

Analysis - Professor Stuart Haszeldine

Country with technology and skills to cope with Co2


ELECTRICITY, cheaply and readily available, is at the core of our lives. Twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week, this is now taken for granted.

Coal and gas have to be burned to produce more than 75 per cent of that electricity in the UK – easy, quick, but very polluting of the world's atmosphere and oceans. The carbon dioxide (Co2) created has to go.

The UK is the first country to make Co2 reduction legally binding on a government, and last week became the first to require new coal power plant to fit carbon capture equipment.

Carbon capture and storage (CCS) buys time. It allows industrial countries to carry on burning fossil fuels in a much cleaner way.

Scotland can justifiably claim world-class advantages. Firstly, the capture equipment has to be designed and built – Doosan Babcock has its world research base at Renfrew, and plans to provide 10 per cent of new coal plant worldwide.

A willing and adaptable power industry is needed to build, and learn to operate, the massive capture equipment. This can clean up existing power plant (as with Longannet and ScottishPower), or can be applied to newly built power plant (potentially at Peterhead with Scottish & Southern, or at Hunterston with RWE).

High quality pipelines are required onshore and offshore, delivering to injection terminals – this expertise is also well established through decades of North Sea work.

Identifying and assessing a storage site, then injecting the , uses the skills and expertise of hydrocarbon companies; monitoring the stored during and after operations is the business of geophysical contractors.

The Scottish government expects the creation of 10,000 new high-tech green jobs when CCS becomes standard practice. Many of these will use existing onshore and offshore skills and extend them.

Unique natural assets for Scotland are the storage sites. A power plant can be re-built, or the can be transported, but the huge volumes of rock to act as stores are fixed.

Our research shows clearly that Scotland has hundreds, probably thousands, of years of storage capacity for its own needs – enough capacity to offer storage to both England and north-west Europe.

Will this be safe? There is every reason is will be; there are dozens of large natural accumulations of worldwide, some in the North Sea, which have stored for tens of millions of years.

The geological requirements are well understood. Any storage site will have to go through a rigorous licensing procedure, rather like for oil and gas exploration and production.

The UK is very good at this, we have already produced our regulations in law, ready to go. Monitoring of a storage site is explicitly required, both during injection and for many years after site closure.

• Stuart Haszeldine is professor of sedimentary geology at the University of Edinburgh.






Page 1 of 1

 
1

The Online Scot,

Scotland 01/05/2009 22:58:50
Two years lost due to Labour pulling the plug on Peterhead, a tantrum after losing the 2007 Holyrood election.

The SNP's persistence with renewables and their refusal to bow to Labour over nuclear has ensured that the Crbon Capture momentum has been kept up.

Yes there are hurdles, but now there is also both a need and a will.

We let London control Scotland's next resource goldmine at our peril.
2

RufusT-Firefly,

01/05/2009 23:15:18
Mr Salmond said that Scotland is well placed to lead the world in the technology because of its geological assets – mainly former oil and gas fields and an abundance of porous rock, known as saline aquifer.
=======================================================

Yes indeed. Scotland is always going to lead the world according to Salmond.

Does not matter what it is, Scotland will still lead the world.

Unfortunately the truth of the matter is that the only things we lead the world in are obesity, poor diet, poor life expectancy, unmarried mothers, stabbings and Buckfast consumption.

The SNP have been in office for 2 years and I do not see them having made any difference to any of these things.

Salmond needs to spend less time at the launch of these 'pie in the sky' projects and spend more time sorting out Scotlands real problems.
3

RufusT-Firefly,

02/05/2009 00:20:53
5 Col. Blimp­IV*,02/05/2009 00:12:33
#2 RufusT-Firefly

Scotland's real problem is being trapped in the Westminster straight jacket.
====================================================

AHhhhhhhhh, I see where you are coming from.

It is all Englands fault.

With you now.

We could not take any responsibilty for ourselves. Could we?
4

Thomas79,

Ayrshire 02/05/2009 00:25:50
RufusT-Firefly

Blogging nonsense again I see.

Scotland is either the largest or second largest oil producer in the EU.

We have the potential for 25% of Europe's tidel energy and have the capacaty for holding Europe's unwanted carbon dioxide (Co2) emissions from power stations for at least 200 years.

Dont let Rufus or Labour distract us from the facts by their negativity and spin.






5

RufusT-Firefly,

02/05/2009 00:28:07
7 Thomas79,Ayrshire 02/05/2009 00:25:50
We have the potential for 25% of Europe's tidel energy ========================================================

Do we?

Who measured that?

Has Salmond been heading round the coasts with his 'Tidal Energy Meter' again?
6

Thomas79,

Ayrshire 02/05/2009 00:35:54
RufusT-Firefly

No, that is an estimate figure, could be lower, or higher.

Most people however, including the EU, agree that Scotland and Norway are, or will become, the two largest renewable producing countries in Europe.

Thats despite your negativity, and spin, to the contrary.

7

RufusT-Firefly,

02/05/2009 00:46:55
#9 Prove it.

Show me a link.
8

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 02/05/2009 00:47:49
"Carbon capture could be bigger than oil and gas to Scots economy"

What the headline means of course is that if we stay in the union, whatever unionist parties that controls Westminster will make nice noises, and the willing Scottish press will endorse them - just like this article - to pretend that Scotland is reaping the rewards.

In truth the headline should read:
"Carbon capture could be bigger than oil and gas to SE of England economy"

That is unless we become independent and rule our own resources and our own destiny - but, then there are plenty Toom Tabard Scots who are more than willing to sell it all to Westminster for a few shiny beads, and other who will readily tell us "WE CANNAE DAE IT"
9

Thomas79,

02/05/2009 00:55:22
Prove what?, as I said the 25% is an estimate but here are links to show the renewable potential of scotland.

http://www.friendsofscotland.gov.uk/scotlandnow/issue-14/history/scotlands-renewable-energy-industry.html

tp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Scotland

http://www.scotlandistheplace.co.uk/stitp/2203.1.1884.html



10

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 02/05/2009 01:03:41
Wufus seems hell-bent on telling us what we can't do and what we can't achieve.

Imagine having that sort of person as a parent or a teacher. Someone constantly telling you you're not good enough - stop trying because you'll only fail - who are you to think you can do this - let someone else do it because they know better - who are you, do you think your better than the rest of us.

This is what the Union has been telling Scotland, and what the attitude of the majority of the English is when they meet a Scotsman. Both they and us have been primed for our whole lives to consider that Scotland and Scots are second class, and that England, particularly London, is better at anything that Scotland can do.

I hope that Wufus and the rest are extremely proud of what they are. Perhaps they themselves are just victims of their own poison - never achieving anything because they never believe they are good enough.
11

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 02/05/2009 01:05:46
Well done Thomas #12
12

Castaway™ ,

02/05/2009 01:24:36
#10 - Rufus - Try searching on the internet and you will find amongst others:-

Scottish Developement International - Scotland is blessed in terms of marine power and can boast 25 per cent of Europe's tidal energy plus 10 per cent of the European wave resource.

Tidal Energy, Scotland - It is estimated that about 25% of Europe's tidal energy resources could reside in Scotland's coastal areas.

Scottish Enterprise : Author: Dr Markus Mueller - Estimates indicate that the Scottish tidal resource alone could produce in excess of 15 TWh/year - enough electrical energy to support a population of 3 million.

Marine Energy-The Institution of Mechanical Engineers-Scotland-Its waters could potentially produce 25% of Europe’s tidal power and 10% of its wave power.
13

,

02/05/2009 01:32:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
14

Edward,

02/05/2009 01:59:24
'Carbon capture could be bigger than oil and gas to Scots economy'
Must be the sickest headline I've ever come across!
Scotland has NEVER benefited from the revenues earned from its own Oil and Gas
for the last 30 odd years! The only place to benefit has been the South East of England
15

Edward,

02/05/2009 02:02:46
'If successful in a UK government competition, ScottishPower believes it can be up and running by 2014, and that the technology they develop could then be attached to the 50,000 fossil fuel power stations around the world'
Surely it will be up to the Scottish Government, or like the Oil and Gas revenues, ar we going to stand aside and alow the creeps in London to reap the rewards!
16

W Smith,

Middle East 02/05/2009 02:53:32
So the research was 'sponsored' by the kiddy on Scottish government and, surprise surprise, the research agrees with the Scottish government.

Looks like more Soviet style propaganda from the SNP.

I suppose this is "momentous" day Part 2.

Can't wait for the next sequel.
17

The Pict.,

Canada/Edinburgh 02/05/2009 03:19:16
For Scotland's Future # 11 Yes you are 100% correct.

W.Smith # 19 More of your Israeli propaganda. We don't need your foreign garbage. I'm surprised that you didn't tie your B.S. into another 'hate the muslims' tirade.
18

somerferg,

perth 02/05/2009 04:47:21

Very interesting article - apart from the shockingly bad grammar. I suggest the good prof needs to have a word with the English faculty :)

Anyway the best laugh is the idiotic comments by the 'fly' which seems to consist of:

a) saying how awful Alex Salmond is and when that doesn't work
b) saying that we blame the English for everything.

Almost as hilarious as Smithy - you guys are just SO funny (and I don't mean ha,ha)

So back to reality - as usual the SNP government is looking forward to the future and making sure Scotland is at the forefront of this important technology.
19

AC,

Melbourne 02/05/2009 05:03:59
SO what do we do when this happens then?
20

AC,

Melbourne 02/05/2009 05:04:07
http://www.nytimes.com/1987/08/30/world/dead-town-monument-to-disaster.html
21

Jimmy Le Pie,

02/05/2009 05:11:58
W Smith,

Do you think it's likely that you will ever get over your hatred??

22

Mìcheal a Eilean Rùim,

Richmond 02/05/2009 05:26:26
What I cannot understand is why Rufus and his associates are so anxious for Scotland to fail as a nation. Are they being paid by Whitehall to create alarm and despondency? Is there some hidden agenda that we don't know about? Does Rufus think that Scots can't manage to run a small country, especially with the many resources which Scotland owns and can trade with. Is there some hidden problem we haven't been told about?
23

Bejjy,

Europe 02/05/2009 05:52:43
Is it a Scottish thing; Salmond claims that the Scots lead the world, Brown, another Scot, claims that Great Britain leads the world. For a small nation of only 60 million people you Brits and especially you North Brits seem to have this inflated sense of worth which you think is superior to to the worth of any other national from any other nation. That can't be right given that your country is only one of a few in the world that is virtually bankrupt. Lets hope that the rest of us mere mortals in the world don't take up the Brits offer of leadership.
24

Scozzy,

02/05/2009 07:05:53
This hair brained idea could well result in an environmental disaster of cataclysmic proportions if it ever went ahead.
25

jane shore,

london 02/05/2009 08:18:31

Post 13 ........ For Scotlands Future.................. your 3rd paragraph is pure daft. "the majority of English....have been primed" etc. etc. No we haven't, can you please prove otherwise. Or have you actually met & asked the majority of English people?
26

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 02/05/2009 09:02:40
Re jane shore #31 : FSF was wrong to use the word "majority" in #31. However, the kind of attitude he mentions is, unfortunately, all too commmon. I experienced this myself during the ten years that I lived in England.
27

The Strategist,

02/05/2009 09:12:57
There isn't a hope in hades of Scotland becoming a world leader in CCS technology.

The BP Peterhead proposal didn't involve a single piece of UK let alone Scottish technology because we don't have any.

The main elements of that system came from the Norwegian company Kvaerner and the turbine to burn the hydrogen came from GE in the USA.

Similarly - simpler carbon capture systems that absorb CO2 using a solution based on Amines are mostly built by either US or Norwegian companies.

28

Mcsnagpile,

02/05/2009 09:19:06
Presently smoke goes up the chimney and the electricity produced goes to the customer at great expense.--- Now we want to process the smoke
--compress it, pump it across the country and over the North Sea to on old oil rig and pump it into the ground. Instead of electricity now we are getting eltrickery,-- for the princely sum of zero pence to the customer?? –pull the other dangler it has bells on it.

I really think the world is on LSD, bunch of Doughnut heads.

A Coal Fired Power Station is already only about 34% efficient. New idea 100 Cals in -50% Cals out
29

Unimpressed one,

02/05/2009 09:49:59
See the good professor is confusing cobalt and carbon dioxide. Still he seems pretty ignorant or most other matters anyway.

"SCOTLAND is on the cusp of leading the world in a revolution in energy technology that could massively reduce carbon emissions and transform the economy."

For energy technology put, silicon chips/steel/coal/gas/oil/wave-power.

The only time we led the world on energy technology was when James Watt made his first steam engine. We won't ever be in that position again.
30

tommy M,

Scotland 02/05/2009 09:56:18
Is Rufus a plant? Works for the hootsman? That post at number 2 is truly sad in its negativity. Could you please tell us what the Labour party has brought to Scotland over the last two years? i remember the continuation of an illegal war which has left innocent people dead, sleazegate, the post office closures fiasco, porn for partners being claimed on expenses, the attempted ruin of Scotland's financial sector, misleading claims on borrowing and the true financial mess of the economy, a recession, cash for honours, fat bonuses for bankers, the equitable life scandal, northern rock etc etc....
Independence. It's time. We SO don't need the albatross of Wetminster round our necks.
31

brownlie,

02/05/2009 10:16:25
Rufus,

Air travel was "pie in the sky" at one time, whatever became of that aspiration? Quite curious that you can never bring yourself to post anything positive about Scotland. The result of conditioning by decades of the negativity towards the country under Westminster rule, perhaps?
32

brownlie,

02/05/2009 10:19:43
36 sm753

Will the proposed landfill be "properly designed and regulated" by those who are unable to stop nuclear leaks at Faslane?
33

pwd,

Borders 02/05/2009 10:28:02
#31 jane shore

Re Post 13 - Sorry Jane, some of my fellow Scots are an embarrassment. I've worked and socialised with English people all my life and I don't recognise the type of English person (or Scot!) portrayed by this poster. What I do recognise is the type of Scot he/she personifies. They are not true Scots in any traditional sense but a new breed: xenophobic, mean spirited, lusting for victimhood, narrow, etc, and lacking in those virtues that made true Scots: fortitude, courage, prudence, reason, outward looking, etc - pretty much the same as you English actually. Notwithstanding the 'noise, made on htis site and elsewhere by this new breed they are very much a minority.
34

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 02/05/2009 10:38:13
If we believed the doomongers on here we wouldn't have seen an oil industry develop - some would say the benefits of it STILL haven't been seen to this day.
35

Goat Boy,

02/05/2009 10:48:52
"Green MSP Patrick Harvie said: "The First Minister proudly claims that 'Scotland is ready for carbon capture' but he forgets to add that carbon capture isn't ready for us."

A very good point Patrick.

36

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 02/05/2009 10:53:32
36 smee

Making a fool of himself in public, again!

"Storing gaseous waste which needs to be kept down there for all eternity - great idea!"

Gaseous waste? Eternity?

We are talking about a naturally occurring gas here smee. Eejit!
37

Peter Franzen,

wigan 02/05/2009 11:02:08
A far better idea would to be to make huge balloons out of recycled plastic, fill them with carbon dioxide and then float them up into outer space.

Then we could get North Korea to fire their rockets at the balloons to burst them and release the carbon dioxide into space along with all the other rubbish that's floating around up there.

38

greenhill,

02/05/2009 11:17:18
Re pwd,Borders 02/05/2009 10:28:02

I think the main thing about these cranky people is as you say:"lusting for victimhood".It is as if Scots were biologically different from the English and with independence all the flaws of human nature (English nature) would be overcome by a Scottish master race.

Every negative point that these children scapegoat upon "Unionistas" or the English would be solved if only “our" innate perfection had not been stymied from full expression by the opponents of independence.

The general stance they take on this story shows an abject inability to think in a critical manner. To them the word "could" means "will" and they are not prepared to think beyond that deluded mindset in case they have to face reality.

39

Tebbit,

02/05/2009 11:21:31
What, precisely, is your "reality"?
40

Rasco,

02/05/2009 11:29:35
Rufus Re Carbon Capture BP,Scottish and Southern were all set to go ahead with the Technology at Peterhead but Westminster pulled the plug on that it has now gone to the Gulf State of Abu Dhabi.Labour MSP Lewis Macdonald now wants Alex Salmond to back Broon and Darling who he says are leading Europe on CCS,what a bunch of hypocrite's your friends Lab. are.Read the article on page 18 of the Press and Journal you can't say they are pro SNP.
41

The Scotchman,

02/05/2009 11:41:19
# 50 - aye. from the Times.

Lewis Macdonald, the Scottish Labour energy spokesman, said: "Alex Salmond and SNP ministers need to back Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling, who are leading Europe on carbon capture and storage, but they also need to recognise there is a long way to go."

--
#25, #40 - aye exactly. Unquestionably there's guys on a government payroll somewhere that spread their paid-for-manure. It really is that blatant. #2.
42

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 02/05/2009 11:44:49
#31 and 43
No I haven't talked to the majority of English people to prove it, just as you haven't to disprove it. All we have is our experiences. I have lived and worked in various places in England and the rest of the world for a over three decades, and yes, you are a friendly bunch as a rule - so are we.

However, in my experience and those of me and my family, friends and relatives, English strangers in the form of everyday contact (shops, etc), and also though business contacts (even those abroad) always have a "reserve" when they know you are a Scot, simply because you are a Scot. I never forget my wife's experience in first moving to England. Her co-workers, against whom she was far more qualified, were genuinely surprised that she didn't have scars on her face from knife fights, and that she'd actually seen television. There were also keen that we took ourselves out on an evening to restaurants, and didn't believe us that is what we did in Scotland on a regular basis

This is something that I have never found in other peoples in my travels throughout the world.

One you get past that reserve (and there are not just a few where we've never got past it), then they are as friendly as everyone else.

Not being a woman, but I imagine it's a form of what business woman experience. I doesn't matter how competent you are, you still have work harder to prove to an Englishman your just as good, and in many cases better.

No I'm not xenephobic. I think that says a lot about you though. It is a standard jibe against supporters of the SNP.

Mean spirited? No, I've never been accused of that. Quite the opposite in fact. My mother used to berate us kids that we would go out of our way to help a stranger, but not "pull our weight" at home.

Lusting for victimhood? Quite the opposite, Lusting to stop Scotland being a victim of the first cuts in production and funding. The first to be used as an experiment for germ warfare (look up the web on Gruiniard Island).
43

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 02/05/2009 11:46:11
(cont)....
Lusting for victimhood? Quite the opposite, Lusting to stop Scotland being a victim of the first cuts in production and funding. The first to be used as an experiment for germ warfare (look up the web on Gruiniard Island). The place where they build Nuclear Power plants to produce electricity for England, because English people (quite rightly) don't want them build near them. The place where they put WMD bases 40-miles from the largest city, and dump radioactive waste into Gairloch. Try doing that in the Thames. And much, much more.

Narrow? I I was that, I doubt if I would have got a Science Degree and worked all over the world.

It is very typical of you people, who talk down people that speak up for Scotland, to say they are insular, inward looking and lack ambition. It is in fact the opposite of the truth. We are very much outward looking and have the belief that Scotland can be an independent nation and that we have the ability and expertise to become a productive, useful and well respected nation in the world. All we have to do is overcome all the people who say "we cannae dae it".
44

greenhill,

02/05/2009 11:57:11
RE "Tebbit"

The biggest reality is that the technology is not proven to be practicable on a large scale.

In addition the evasive journalist who wrote the story dodged the issue of the amount of radiation pumped out by "Clean Coal”. The fact is that this technology results in even greater levels of radiation spewing into the atmosphere than current "dirty Coal". Other pollutants released by coal include: sulfur dioxide ,nitrogen oxides, and toxic mercury.


This reticence re coal is to do with the fact that Coal power has released to the World far more radioactivity than all the nuclear power plants in the world. Air pollution from coal burning kills hundreds of thousands of people per year. If you were to take a Geiger counter around the vicinity of a coal power station you would find far more radiation than in the vicinity of a nuclear station.

Such facts would spoil this slanted boosterist piece .However it contains enough clues to cause a critical thinker to reflect. However the faculty of critical thinking is well and truly absent from the mental toolkit of many contributors to this thread.

45

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 02/05/2009 12:03:26
No it's not a Scots thing that we have an inflated view of our worth. We know that it's not inflated.

As for Maggie Brown. Well he declares himself as being someone from North Britain.

Regarding our economy. That is run from the SE of England, mainly for the benefit of the SE of England. And yes, we are near bankrupt, but please don't blame Scotland.

As an independent nation, we want to normalise our relationship with the rest of the nations in the world who, like you, currently view us a region of England. We believe that we can become a productive, useful and well respected nation of the world in our own right.

"Lets hope that the rest of us mere mortals in the world don't take up the Brits offer of leadership." - Would you mind is we Scots join in with you with this statement??
46

greenhill,

02/05/2009 12:03:38
RE For Scotlands etc etc blah blah.

"All we have to do is overcome all the people who say "we cannae dae it"."

What a twisted propagandist you are.You set up a "straw man" point and impute it into the minds of those who disagree with you.

You are a bigot.
47

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 02/05/2009 12:03:56
#26
No it's not a Scots thing that we have an inflated view of our worth. We know that it's not inflated.

As for Maggie Brown. Well he declares himself as being someone from North Britain.

Regarding our economy. That is run from the SE of England, mainly for the benefit of the SE of England. And yes, we are near bankrupt, but please don't blame Scotland.

As an independent nation, we want to normalise our relationship with the rest of the nations in the world who, like you, currently view us a region of England. We believe that we can become a productive, useful and well respected nation of the world in our own right.

"Lets hope that the rest of us mere mortals in the world don't take up the Brits offer of leadership." - Would you mind is we Scots join in with you with this statement??
48

jane shore,

london 02/05/2009 12:17:03

Well FSF@ 52/53 for someone with a "Science Degree" you've made some pretty wide statements :- The "majority of English", "are primed". I have a science based degree too, & was taught to base my theories with absolute facts; isolated incidents regarding your wife's employment & colleagues aren't really enough to support sweeping assumptions about Anglo/Scots. opinions on each other.

PWD @ 43 thank you for your comments. My family will as ever, be spending much of our holiday time in Scotland this summer, we haven't come across any anti-Englishness up there . But as you say numbnutters exist both side of our borders.

49

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 02/05/2009 12:26:53
#56
I'm only a bigot against those who don't believe that Scotland can't become an Independent nation, that it's too small, not rich enough, doesn't have the expertise, etc, etc, like the article some months back in the Daily Record/Mail(??) which protrayed an Independent Scotland crawling back on it's knees to England begging re-admission to the UK.

I disagree with, but have nothing against those people who see Scotland as a strong nation, but would rather be part of a union within the UK. I myself would like to see an Independent Scotland, but in economic union with other like-minded nations who want to exploit their own resources, rather than be exploited.
50

Jeeemy,

St Andrews 02/05/2009 12:36:37
Chicken’s coming home to roost; we have the inestimable David Maddox the doyenne of New Labour in Scotland, the scribe to the Governor General in Scotland whose coat is on a shougaly nail, now finds his own coat is likewise.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8029755.stm

With all falling down around them, we might find that the circulation levelling out, and journalists being employed of the investigative variety.

This could mean that the truth would be printed, not the New Labour scripts on daily issue are cut and pasted into the columns of this paper.

That the child like behaviour of Superman Brown and his cohorts regarding carbon capture could have been almost up and running at Peterhead by now, instead we are losing out to the progressive approach within Europe just like Wind power.
51

Geomac 1,

Scotland 02/05/2009 13:16:18
As is inevitable these days, this blog has descended into political farce - always, always there are those who use these serious issues to rant and rave about their political party and the main issue is lost in a series of slagging and rude personal comments. Sad!
On the issue in question, I await the concept being demonstrated and commercialised. I just wish politicians would do the same before making wild statements about CCS being bigger than North Sea oil and Scotland being the leader - it's embarrassing!!
Surely it's known that there are many other countries and major companies working on CCS? For example, there's Norway, China, USA, Canada, Australia to name but a few.
One question? Has anyone given any thought to the amount of energy needed to liquify and transport CO2? I have the feeling that it may well be cost prohibitive - unless the disposal facilities are close to power stations?
52

im brian and so is my wife,

edinburgh 02/05/2009 13:29:53
on the question of nuclear power stations in scotland,it seems labour change their minds like the weather,i quote written answers dated as follows

Written Answers Friday 24 February 2006
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green): To ask the Scottish Executive whether, under the terms of the Planning etc. (Scotland) Bill, proposals for nuclear power stations could be included in a future national planning framework.

Holding answer issued: 7 February 2006
(S2W-22610)


Malcolm Chisholm: The Planning etc. (Scotland) Bill does not prescribe the type of development which may be included in a future national planning framework. Any application by a power generation company for a nuclear power station would be determined by ministers under the terms of the Electricity Act 1989. The Executive’s position on the development of new nuclear power stations is stated in the Partnership Agreement – we will not support the further development of nuclear power stations while waste management issues remain unresolved.

Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green): To ask the Scottish Executive whether, under the terms of the Planning etc. (Scotland) Bill, proposals for nuclear waste disposal facilities could be included in a future national planning framework.

Holding answer issued: 7 February 2006
(S2W-22611)


Malcolm Chisholm: The Planning etc. (Scotland) Bill does not prescribe the type of development which may be included in a future national planning framework. Any application for a new radioactive waste disposal facility would be determined under the provisions of the Town and Country Planning Act (Scotland) 1997, as amended. Such determination would be in accordance with the procedures appropriate for the category of development into which the proposed facility fell, as assessed against any criteria set out in secondary legislation to define the thresholds for the hierarchy of developments.

Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green): To ask the Scottish Executive which category
53

im brian and so is my wife,

edinburgh 02/05/2009 13:31:22
if you think i made that one up like a good labour stormtrooper then check the link
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/pqa/wa-06/wa0224.htm
labour changing mind and policies like a tart changes her drawers
54

greenhill,

02/05/2009 13:37:00
REGeomac 1,Scotland 02/05/2009 13:16:18 :Surely it's known that there are many other countries and major companies working on CCS? For example, there's Norway, China, USA, Canada, Australia to name but a few.
................................................

Too many nutbags who inhabit these forums would never consider that there is a big wide World out there, where others with far bigger budgets; far more at stake, are pursuing the same variety of sustainable power aims.

They live within a Lilliputian mindset and can only see Scotland and England within the whole planet. To them the main reason these technologies have not been fully developed is down to English incompetence.

However an independent Scotland would have saved the whole World were it not for the English preventing us from achieving this. These people are chauvinistic idiots whose bigoted stupidity is utterly contemptible.

55

livilion,

livingston 02/05/2009 14:06:48
Carbon capture as envisaged here is nothing new, it has been a working technology since even before North Sea Oil first came ashore.

In the oil and gas industry however they call it Enhanced Oil Recovery (EOR, practiced since 1974 first in the US oil field where they use CO2 like a sodastream sparklet bulb to extract hydrocarbon reserves otherwise abandoned as unrecoverable.

Sound familiar? That's what BP wanted to do with their Miller field at the Peterhead power station they intended to build to run off hydrogen won from North Sea natural gas.

Darling, showing his customary vision, spiked that project which could have powered two cities the size of Glasgow, captured the CO2 equivalent to the exhaust of 400,000 cars a year and would've been in full production by the end of this Holyrood parliament in 2011.
56

livilion,

livingston 02/05/2009 14:12:27
#64 greenhill
>>These people are chauvinistic idiots whose bigoted stupidity is utterly contemptible<<
That'll be the BBC too then?

Watch these then come back and say that:

What every Scot needs to know.
BBC Alba: Diomhair parts 1-6, how London has interfered with Scottish self determination

part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saqQnj0LKlQ

part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=365HuYQtTCI

part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LSpRY2MPB4

part 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV2AxtjwiyU

part 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGYVXoDMrQw

part 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9BgbQ8fo6A

57

livilion,

livingston 02/05/2009 14:27:01
64 greenhill
>>the main reason these technologies have not been fully developed is down to English incompetence.<<
Incompetence or connivance? you decide.

The untimely death of Salter's Duck
29 July 1992


"Traditional energy generators have generally not assisted the necessary moves towards renewable technology. While hydro and biomass are long-established, if under-used, parts of the power hierarchy, wind, solar and wave power must still battle to establish themselves. And they must do so against heavy odds, such as scant funding and even sabotage. The case of Salter's Duck is illuminating"

Read the article here:
http://www.greenleft.org.au/1992/64/2832
58

greenhill,

02/05/2009 14:31:46
Re livilion,livingston 02/05/2009 14:27:01


Thanks for proving my point. You natty Nutbag.
59

livilion,

livingston 02/05/2009 14:59:23
#67 sm753

By 1980, 80m tons of oil were indeed being extracted from the North Sea,
but they were worth some £3 800m – some 38 times the Minister’s
estimates.1
All that is wrong now with the SNP estimate is that it is far too low

By 1983 the Treasury in Whitehall was in fact coining £8.5bn, and by the time Thatcher was in full force £23bn was being shipped in to pay dole for the miners and their union allies she put out of work. Instead the bonanza was spent building the M25, the Channel Tunnel Docklands while back here in Scotland Hampden park was left nigh a derelict ruin for decades because Thatcher would not condescend to allocate £20m to refurb the Scottish national stadium.

And what about ignoring the petition signed by 2million Scots requesting devolution, or the police conniving to recruit impressionable youngsters as agents provocateur and supplying them with dummy bombs in order to then arrest them to discredit the nationalist movement?
60

livilion,

livingston 02/05/2009 15:12:05
#69 sm753

No it would have used 20 years of Enhanced Oil Recovery from the Miller field and Carbon Credits to offset the costs of development.

Which Norwegian and US technologies are you referring to?

I suppose us idiot nats would prefer to subsidise our own North Sea oil & gas industries as well as developing our indigenous renewable resources(like Salter's duck) than give that cash to French, South African or Canadian nuclear power companies or depend on foreign supplies of nuclear fuel, and lumber ourselves with ever increasing amounts of the most toxic nuclear waste that to-date no-one has a clue how long we are going to have to guard to keep out of the hands of extremist religious fanatics or the environment.
61

greenhill,

02/05/2009 15:20:03
RElivilion,livingston 02/05/2009 15:12:05 :..."the police conniving to recruit impressionable youngsters as agents provocateur and supplying them with dummy bombs in order to then arrest them to discredit the nationalist movement?"
..............................................

And you forgot: "they are even using our tartan to make coats for wee doggies !"

Shame on the Sachsenachs.
62

The Strategist,

02/05/2009 15:27:35
Peterhead ...

The gas turbine was to be built by General Electric... They have one that will burn hydrogen. Rolls Royce don't.

The gas reformer was to be supplied by Kvaerner of Norway.
63

livilion,

livingston 02/05/2009 15:32:40
#71 sm753
Are you some kind of masochist to keep coming on here and make such a t!t of yourself?

CO2 has been pumped underground for 35 years now in the petrochemical industry to pressurise oil and gas reserves as part of EOR.

Once in these strata, on contact with water, carbon dioxide rapidly turns to limescale or solid rock.
In most of England you will recognise the process that wrecks your iron and untreated central heating system and dishwashers.

That 'vast expense', by way of a bonus, releases on average about twenty years of additional production from otherwise redundant oil production facilities.

In future the Carbon Credit Scheme will also expect to see Scotland in a very favourable position to cash in taking European carbon aswell seeing as we have over 200 years of space available for our own carbon production.

Or we could simply let the Norwegians do it and take the money, a bit like when Whitehall let the Norwegians collar the lion's share of the North Sea fields from under our noses back in the 60's.
64

livilion,

livingston 02/05/2009 15:34:18
74 greenhill
No I didn't, unlike you I do not rate state sponsored terrorism in the same league as tartan coats for wee dogies.
65

livilion,

livingston 02/05/2009 15:35:07
75 The Strategist
And the problem?...
66

Dr Mike,

Edinburgh 02/05/2009 15:36:03
I am gob-smacked by the childish optimism on display by the ernest grinning "professor" Stuart "JC" Hazeldene and the smug buffoon Salmond.

Has it not escaped the professor's notice that:

1. carbon capture is a heavy industrial process. It requires a great deal of energy to compress a gas into a liquid - to become the world's CO2 processor means using the equivalent of the wave, water and nuclear power just to generate a toxic pool of carbon dioxide, leaving us in a viscious circle of trying to capture the dirty byproduct from conventional use of fossil fuels;

2. The compression of a gas into a liquid generates a vast amount of heat which must be removed by cooling!!!! arguably this will become the new global warming heat source;

3. It is vastly expensive;

4. It would create a vast toxic reservoir of asphyxyating carbon dioxide just offshore of Scotland. the icy liquid would have the potential to escape up fractures, or even freeze open the crust itself, and escape. As a volatile and heavy gas, such an escape to the surface would roll across the sea and land, extinguishing life as we know it until it evaporated away. NIMBYists can't find it in their hearts to tolerate a household waste dump beside them, never mind micro-deposits of nuclear waste, so how in hell they are going to want to live next to a perpetual toxic sea dump escapes me.

On a small scale, carbon capture might work, but this is a recipe for Scotland and other North Sea nations, becoming a global toxic liquid gas dump and a slave to having to use all of its "GREEN" energy resources to funnel the carbon waste streams of the rest of the world into its earth. Far from being a step forward this is a crazy scheme supported by ignorant geologists who imagine their research budgets will now swell looking for the perfect CO2 reservoir. Have they found a site suitable for nuclear waste yet that has the agreement of any local community???

Professor Hazeldene typifies the blinkered scientis
67

Dr Mike,

Edinburgh 02/05/2009 15:38:15
Professor Hazeldene typifies the blinkered scientist who thinks he has found the equivalent of cold fusion. Alex Salmond is the rag and bone man who wants the seas around Scotland to become an unstable waste dump. Its a completely crazy scheme, badly conceived and downright dangerous. They are the Laurel and Hardy of environmental science.

Alternatively, nuclear, wind and wave power can give us low carbon energy. We can USE LESS energy, that's free. Finally, carbon dioxide freezes at a relatively low temperature, somewhere about -65oC so the answer to liquifying it lies somehwere in our atmosphere, it really is that cold at 50,000 feet, so why shouldn't aeroplanes capture it as they fly, swapping aviation fuel for liquid CO2 in their tanks and bringing it back to be stored, preferably somewhere about as far from Scotland as possible on this planet????

68

Western Gael,

02/05/2009 15:42:30
Carbon Capture? Where is the hard science and exploitable technology behind this Holy Grail? The best this vacuous article can come up with is "Academics suggested.." and "..the capture equipment has to be designed and built..." The last such great discovery expected to transform humanity was nuclear power. Where has that gotten us?
69

livilion,

livingston 02/05/2009 15:49:31
#79 Dr Nick Riviera?


I was going to take your points one by one but then it would've sounded a bit like " the UK is surrounded by a huge pool of ice cold asphyxyating H20" or "residents of the English channel coast have turned their huge perpetual toxic dump into an icon of their nation ie the White Cliffs of Dover".

Have you drilled a hole in your fridge door yet to see if the light goes out?

Your science is at the level of a skin cream advert.
70

livilion,

livingston 02/05/2009 15:58:50
#81 Western Gael
You asked for an example of the technology for this 'Holy Grail'?
Here's one for you:
Weyburn Enhanced Oil Recovery Project Dakota USA
read about it here:
http://www.co2captureandstorage.info/project_specific.php?project_id=70
71

livilion,

livingston 02/05/2009 16:10:32
80 Dr Mike
Couldn't let it go, CO2 cannot liquify at atmospheric pressures.
72

Western Gael,

02/05/2009 16:30:41
#83 livilion

Admittedly and interesting report, but there appear to be mutually contradicting descriptions of the project. The following statement describes the project as a method to boost oil production – “In October 2000, EnCana began injecting significant amounts of carbon dioxide into a Williston Basin oilfield (Weyburn) in order to boost oil production.” The second states that the purpose is different, to wit: “…the Weyburn project is essentially the first international project where physical quantities of CO2 are being traded for purposes of minimising climate change.” I infer that the project was ab initio intended to increase oil production, and at some later time it was redefined as a carbon capture test bed, a rather self-serving effort to avoid calling the kettle black.
73

livilion,

livingston 02/05/2009 16:46:13
#85 Western Gael

Hey the world changes, and whenever was an oilman slow to turn the markets to his advantage to turn a buck?

The US has just woken up, it would appear on the surface, to climate change with the swearing in of their new president.

Opportunities present themselves, why wouldn't they present the environmental credentials of this really rather old technology being applied to new economic, industrial and environmental parameters?

The point I reckon is that we over here are in quite a fortunate position to be able to cash in ourselves, if the political will is there to extract the digit, before yet another chance is blown.
74

Jim P,

02/05/2009 16:51:58
The moronic BBC refers to "the legendary William Wallace"! Probably, the same "rebel" William Wallace they mentioned on the BBC TV news a few years back.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/tayside_and_central/8029524.stm
75

Western Gael,

02/05/2009 17:05:05
#86 livilion

Based on how many initiatives Mr Salmond has indorsed, the political will is there, at least in Scotland. Financing is another issue, given the parlous state of the British economy for the next few years, as well as the empty Holyrood purse. Another hurdle is the degree to which climate change, at least in some countries, has taken on the cloak of a religious campaign - Mr. Gore's efforts in the US come to mind. Too many of his initial supporters have been exposed as mountebanks abd charlatains, rendering many of the rest suspect too.
76

livilion,

livingston 02/05/2009 17:20:52
#88 Western Gael

I agree, and judging by the number of countries taking up the Saltire Prize initiative around the Scottish coast, including the Irish, it seems that with energy issues reserved to Westminster we in Scotland are travelling at the pace of the slowest, remember it was Mr Darling who spiked BP's Peterhead hydrogen powerstation Carbon capture project in 2007?
http://www.bp.com/genericarticle.do?categoryId=2012968&contentId=7006999

It looks to me that if you are a merchant banker looking for a hand, Mr Darling is your man, but if it is the ok to go ahead with ground breaking commercial/environmental initiatives it has to have been his idea first before he or his boss will entertain you.
77

Joseph Black,

02/05/2009 18:49:50
Well this is the whole point isn't it ?

Maddox, Salmond, Haszeldine, etc. give the game away here, by saying that this is all really about "creating" a "new industry", which Salmond says will "create 10,000 jobs". Is that all, Mr. Salmond ? There were at least ten times that number of coal miners employed in the central belt at one time, in the not too distant past. So if it is employment that is your aim, then why not adhere to the pre-electoral promise that you made to re-open coal mines in Scotland ?

..................

There is a similar discussion going on on the page of the other recent Scotsman article on this subject.

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/scotland/North-Sea-has-potential-to.5225500.jp#3990534

See my comments there about these matters of CO2 storage, and note the page at the DTI - IOR with the report in 2005 by Fatosh Gozalpour.

-- J.Black
78

Hugh Roscombe,

02/05/2009 18:53:05
Dr Mike

Ha ha ha. Doctor of Divinity possibly 'cos you know naff all about chemistry.

Ha ha ha ha ha.
79

Hugh Roscombe,

02/05/2009 18:55:42
Unionistas

Is carbon capture a good or a bad idea?
80

Joseph Black,

02/05/2009 19:07:00
# 89

I went to that URL you mention, but you obviously didn't read the article full, because they expose the entire bogus scheme in thier own article.

http://www.bp.com/genericarticle.do?categoryId=2012968&contentId=7006999

Quote:

The project would be located close to Peterhead in north-east Scotland. A newly built reformer plant would convert up to 70 million cubic feet of natural gas a day into carbon dioxide and hydrogen and the hydrogen would be used as fuel for a new 350MW combined cycle gas turbine power station.
.........
The carbon dioxide generated by the reformer would be exported through existing pipelines to the mature BP-operated Miller oilfield, 240 kilometres offshore, where the platform would be adapted to allow for injection of the gas into the reservoir four kilometres below the seabed to increase oil recovery from the reservoir and for storage.

The Miller field is currently due to cease production in 2006/7 but the injection of carbon dioxide into the reservoir could increase the amount of oil extracted from the field, potentially allowing the production of up to 40 million additional barrels of oil and extending the life of the field by 15 to 20 years.

: Unquote


So this IS ALL ABOUT Improved Oil Recovery then.

Not only that but the project would not have "captured carbon" at all. They intended to generate the CO2 by "REFORMING Methane". I wonder what the energy cost in that process is ? The feeble "and for storage" is fooling nobody, except those who are fooled, to use a Rumsfeldism.

-- J.Black
81

Hugh Roscombe,

02/05/2009 19:10:07
H2CO3 ....Carbonic Acid

Carbonic Acid ....is also a name sometimes given to solutions of carbon dioxide in water, which contain small amounts of H2CO3.
82

Joseph Black,

02/05/2009 19:29:52
The "Peterhead Project" depended on
"Reforming Methane", but why was that ?

Steam-Reforming Reaction
CH4 + H2O (+heat) ? CO + 3H2

Water-Gas Shift Reaction
CO + H2O ? CO2 + H2

This is not an inexpensive process
and the heat required has to come from
the burning of additional methane,
which of course creates additional CO2.

But then since the creation of CO2 is really
what is required by the IOR scheme, then that
would have been no bad thing for BP.

Actually there was no good reason for reforming
methane in this fashion anyway. More electrictity
per cubic meter of methane would have been
generated by simply burning methane in the gas turbine.

The whole point of reforming methane as a process, is to generate hydrogen for transportation a a liquid fuel for use in "green" motor vehicles. To produce it to simply burn it in the same location is economic madness.

BP cancelled thier scheme when it became apparent to all and sundry that their dubious enterprise was uneconomic, even with grant aid assistance.

-- J.Black
83

Hugh Roscombe,

02/05/2009 19:30:40
sm753

Just so I know. Is carbon capture a good idea for the UK and a bad idea for Scotland? Is it the cost you object to?
84

Hugh Roscombe,

02/05/2009 19:31:01
100 for carbon capture.
85

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 02/05/2009 19:31:21
97

You mention "you people" and "We". Could you enlighten us as to who you mean with regards the above?
86

Hugh Roscombe,

02/05/2009 19:31:49
Darling wants it.
87

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 02/05/2009 19:31:56
Hugh@100


Glay va cove!
88

Hugh Roscombe,

02/05/2009 19:34:20
"Australia's Prime Minister Kevin Rudd yesterday launched a government-funded initiative to coordinate and accelerate carbon capture and storage (CCS) projects worldwide."

17/4/09
89

Hugh Roscombe,

02/05/2009 19:36:29
"National Grid Plc, which manages the U.K.’s gas distribution network, is investigating whether to create pipeline networks near industrial hubs to siphon CO2 away from factories and power stations, injecting the gas in depleted wells under the North Sea."
90

Hugh Roscombe,

02/05/2009 19:37:08
"April 18 (Bloomberg) -- Chancellor of the Exchequer Alistair Darling will introduce incentives this coming week for U.K. businesses to fight global warming by capturing carbon dioxide and storing it underground, two people familiar with the plans said. "
91

Hugh Roscombe,

02/05/2009 19:37:45
Time for tea. Mañana.
92

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 02/05/2009 19:41:15
Hugh

I'm sure I read somewhere that oil companies use some sort of device whereby they presurise depleted wells to bring the oil up closer to the surface for easier extraction.

I'm sure I also read somewhere that they can/do pump CO2 into the wells to do so (and in hard to extract new wells).

Could be wrong be pretty sure I spoke to an oil exploration worker here who confirmed that. Case of killing twa' burds wi wan stane?
93

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 02/05/2009 19:42:07
hasta la luego Hugh.
94

Joseph Black,

02/05/2009 19:50:25
Mr. Roscombe you are filling the debate with "spam" cut & Paste "news" clippings. What we want to see are some rational arguments, which support the remarks you have made.

Just saying "100% for carbon capture" does not enlighten us all as to why you take this stance.

It is a bit like saying that a hole has appeared in the M1 Motorway and that Police are looking into it.

But are we any wiser as to what caused the hole ?
Where is the evidence for the hole anyway, except that I said there was a hole. Is there a photograph of the hole we can all see ?

#108
Please see the article by European expert in Carbon Pumping, Fatosh Gozalpour here :

Full report:
http://ior.senergyltd.com/issue10/research-development/universities/heriot-watt/

Look at the costs and the benefits, and ask yourself this "Qui Bono ?". Who benefits ? It is an old legal maxim, follow the money to find out who is behind any subterfuge. Why do Haszeldine and Gozalpour never talk about this 2005 plan any longer ? Is it because they might lose the support of the people, when it becomes clear that this is all really about Improved Oil Recovery.

-- J.Black
95

Dr Mike,

Edinburgh 02/05/2009 20:09:05
yes Carbon dioxide can't be liquified at atmospheric pressure, it has to be compressed to 5 bar or so. That requires energy and generates heat, but it would help if the gas was already very cold rather than at room temperature.
96

Dr Mike,

Edinburgh 02/05/2009 20:15:17
It's one thing to pump liquified CO2 into rock to displace oil, but is that really an analogy for storing it down there forever. There is absolutely no guarantee it will "quickly turn to limescale or rock."

You can't air condition your car if you have the windows open. We would be condensing carbon dioxide from volcanoes!!! Even if Scotland is paid to store CO2, it's still a toxic material in concentrated form, and this sounds very much like a holy grail. To pay the academics to find an Eldorado for CO2 is a joke.



97

Dr Mike,

Ediburgh 02/05/2009 20:18:28
Actually, Roscombe I am a doctor of geochemistry!
98

Dr Mike,

Edinburgh 02/05/2009 20:34:15
To anyone who doubts the substance of my diatribe, please go to Wikipaedia and read about Carbon Capture and Storage. I can assure you everything about my chemistry is not "at the level of a skin cream advert", in fact that's really quite an amusing way of demonstrating your own ignornace.
99

Dr Mike,

Edinburgh 02/05/2009 20:48:47
Actually carbon capture is getting rid of the CO2 molecule while keeping all of the heat in the atmosphere, and adding abit more from the compression process. Frankly, its a barmy idea.

Using less fossil fuels is the only answer.
100

Dr Mike,

Edinburgh 02/05/2009 21:06:07

Read this:

http://www.greenpeace.org/raw/content/eu-unit/press-centre/reports/why-carbon-capture-and-storage-will-not-save-the-climate.pdf
101

,

02/05/2009 21:16:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
102

Hugh Roscombe,

02/05/2009 21:38:02
"Actually, Roscombe I am a doctor of geochemistry!"

And I am AM2. On yer bike.
103

Hugh Roscombe,

02/05/2009 21:41:15
"Actually, Roscombe I am a doctor of geochemistry!"

and then ..."To anyone who doubts the substance of my diatribe, please go to Wikipaedia "

Ha ha ha. Wiki.

How about. "www.Imakeitupasigoalong.com

You can't even spell Wikipedia correctly.
104

Hugh Roscombe,

02/05/2009 21:46:17
Dr Mike

"yes Carbon dioxide can't be liquified at atmospheric pressure, it has to be compressed to 5 bar or so."

Or so? You are WAY WAY out. Dr of what did you say? You are cracking me up. Begone you numbskull. The nearest you got to 5 bar was at yer stag night.
105

,

02/05/2009 21:49:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
106

,

02/05/2009 21:51:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
107

,

02/05/2009 21:53:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
108

Hiram Greenbaum,

Dallas, Texas 03/05/2009 03:43:27
You guys crease me up with your carbon pumping, save the planet nonsense. Now you gonna pay the oilman for what he has been doing for years. When you been on the planet as long as I has, you would know that the Hot/Cold/Hot/Cold cycle is natural. You can't keep the planet as tho it was your lounge, and be a' turnin' the temperature up and down as you like.

The climate changes. Get used to it !

Already as y'all probly know there is damn few sunspots for the last two years, and even a kid would tell you that maybe the sun had somethin to do with the temperate falling over the last two years.

You limeys really crack me up. Hey but don't take it too bad, you are just about the same percentage of the world's landmass, as the tiny percentage of CO2 that is in the air, and your opinions matter about as much.

Time you realised that ole King George aint on his throne no more, and Brittania dont rule no waves no more.
109

Svaas77,

03/05/2009 12:45:33
At a time when the Marine Bill is supposed to protect our Coastlines and maintain biodiversity out in the North sea.It beggars belief that this Carbon Capture idea has been proposed as a viable option.
110

Dr Mike,

Edinburgh 04/05/2009 06:58:09
Well, the idea of compressing CO2 at 5 bar at -60oC is probably not feasible in the upper atmosphere, is it? Neither is capturing carbon dioxide in metal carbonates and creating tens of thousands of tonnes of heavy powder per day at a power station.

The fact is it is not a matter of carbon chemistry; for a huge price a compressed toxic liquid can already be pumped underground. A supercritical mass just a couple of kilometres underground.

Roscombe - the correct spelling should be "wikipaedia", from the latin, it's been spelt in the vernacular. It should be as in "Encyclopaedia Britannia". Actually Wikipedia is not made up, it's a valuable source of user generated information.

As for your comments, you should get an education in manners. I really am a Doctor of Geochemistry with a first class degree in geology!


111

Dr Mike,

Edinburgh 04/05/2009 07:18:49
Yes, a layer of CO2 that built up on a lake floor in Cameroon spewed out and killed 1700 people. So, if a rupture in a CO2 dump in the North Sea occurred, millions of tonnes of asphyxiating CO2 would emerge at the surface, super cold and dense, heading downwind. There's no technology would be able save any living animal in its path until it dissipated. Imagine such a dense freezing fog descending on a major city such as London.

That's a worst case scenario of course and reason to ensure the toxic waste dumps are probably below a desert somewhere in a depressed bowl far from civilisation. Putting these dumps below the North Sea will probably never happen as it would require a marine treaty between all bordering nations. The enhance oil recovery programmes that currently use CO2 pumped down there at the moment are not storage programmes, so cannot be cited as a reference to anything other than the pumping of the liquid down there.

The idea of liquifying carbon dioixde and storing it for eternity is one of the most dangerous ideas ever to emerge, and I think the SNP have only thought about selling Scotland as a waste dump for a mere 10,000 jobs!!!

As a geologist, I would like to point out that the existing hydrocarbon, brine and CO2 traps that occur naturally, have formed, in equilibrium with their surroundings, over geological time, literally 10s of millions of years. The reaction rates of formation are so slow as to be imperceptible. So shoving billions of tonnes of CO2 into the ground in just a few years from now is never going to do anything other than displace the subsurface liquids. There will be no reaction into hydrates, salts or solids for millions of years. Furthermore, it is HOT down there, no one seems to have mentioned the geothermal gradient...a compressed supercritcial liquid will warm up as it is pumped down, so needing deeper burial. It's basically an untenable proposition to post the toxic waste into an open container - the earth.

I am n
112

Dr Mike,

Edinburgh 04/05/2009 10:02:36
My last comment about geothernmal gradients is more of a comment on the limitations of the depth of burial being the effect of heat (and pressure) on the "end of the injection pipe". There is a real limit to the economics and technical feasibility of going deep enough to say the supercritical fluid is "out of the way", meaning the shallowest option is always going to be the most attractive (cheapest). As for cap rocks, they may contain sticky hydrocarbons, but what about the highly volatile CO2 which is itching to get back out...what is the resolution of the geophysics to say the trap can contain that.

Also, as I see it, the proponents want to emphasise that the supercritical fluid is going to be dense enough to stay down there forever. Surely however the energy expended on condensing it and stuffing it down there is completely and spectacularly reversible, the weakest link being the route of emplacement, let alone potential changes the "pool" might have once down there. Let's face it there isn't suddenly going to be a mass of s/c CO2 down there, it is going to be a process between zero and the reservoir being full, rather different from creating a contained scenario above ground as is perfectly possible and to some extent safe.
113

Dr Mike,

Edinburgh 04/05/2009 10:06:34
A question for someone about a disaster scenario:

Suppose there is a Gigatonne of supercritical CO2 sitting at depth, and a small bore fracture to the surface appears, releasing the fluid to atmosphere. What would be the scenario of the CO2 rushing back to the surface, and would the Thomson-Joule effect come into play, meaning the escaping carbon dioxide would potentially transform from hell fire to freezing out on the way up? what speed would the balloon empty at?
114

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 04/05/2009 12:26:02
Those who doubt that carbon dioxide can be stored in rock strata for thousands or millions of years might like to remind themselves that the "natural gas" that we have been busily extracting from under the North Sea recently has been safely stored there naturally for tens or hundreds of millions of years.

Moreover, natural gas - methane - firstly, is not appreciably soluble in water, secondly, it is (at normal temperatures) above its critical point (-82C) and therefore cannot be liquefied and thirdly, it does not react with surrounding rocks to produce solid carbonates.

In contrast, CO2 under pressure readily dissolves in water to form a solution more dense than the original water. The critical point of CO2 is 31C (though Dr Mike is correct to point out that temperatures at depths are greater than that), so it can be liquefied under pressure and in so doing forms a liquid more dense than water. IE any solution/liquid produced containing CO2 would tend to sink compared to surrounding water. And CO2 can react over time with certain minerals in silicate rocks to form solid carbonates minerals.

The above suggests that CO2 should be less mobile and therefore easier to store than methane, which we already know can be stored.
115

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 04/05/2009 12:49:55
#132 Dr Mike "Surely however the energy expended on condensing it and stuffing it down there is completely and spectacularly reversible"

I don't think so. I think that the pressure under which the CO2 would be stored would be the hydrostatic pore pressure of the surrounding rocks, which would be approximately equivalent to the height of the column of water above it. If the CO2 liquid formed, (whether a true liquid below 31C, or a supercritical liquid above 31C, or solution of CO2 in water), were more dense than water, why should there be any tendency for it to "rush back to the surface"?

I confess I have not looked into this in detail, but nor have I read anything in the foregoing or elsewhere that convinces me that there is the sort of problem you suggest.
116

Joseph Black,

West Mains Road, Edinburgh 04/05/2009 16:54:32
What you say Mr. Slioch is all HOKUM. ie. it is literally a message that seems to have no meaning. You speak of this meaurement or that temperature and argue about a few degrees, or thousands of a percentile.

You expound your theories and grandiose schemes, as though they were based on some ineffable facts, because the evidence is just not there for your assertions. No doubt you will try to bluster about that, but all you are doing is repeating what others have told you, or you have read in some publication.

Yours is a kind of blind faith or religion, and that has no place in empirical science.

What Dr. Mike says is absolutely correct, and based on empirical evidence. Not every scientist in Ediburgh is as deceitful as some who have been mentioned in the news recently. In fact there are many who have been starved of research grants and funding by the bias towards Haszeldine and his clandestine coterie. Is Carbon Pumping more important than Cancer or HIV research for instance ?

I for one would like to see a public debate between Dr.Mike and Haszeldine, at say the Edinburgh Students Union Debating Society. Perhaps this could be arranged, if Haszeldine would turn up.

We are all still waiting for Al Gore to accept Lord Monckton's Challenge.
See the following internet link.
http://www.petitiononline.com/agdgw/petition.html

Monckton has issued a further challenge to Senator John Kerry recently, and he has yet to repond either.
If these people are so sure of thier ground, then why do they refuse to debate in public about it ?
http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/images/stories/press_releases/monckton_gdebate.pdf

-- J. Black

117

Dr Mike,

Edinburgh 04/05/2009 17:33:16
Yes a debate would be good. It appears that there is a highly political agenda to move CCS forward in Scotland, and it is inevitable that politicians like Mr Salmond and researchers like Prof H see a great deal of money in this. Such a scheme would be carried out in the name of mankind, yet the man in the street is, necessarily, because of the complexity of the science, going to be unable to a large degree have any say in the process or its possible downsides. I for one would take a great deal of interest in putting the good professor to the debate of justifying what the REAL state of play is as regards practical application, cost versus benefit and what the ultimate risks might be....after all who would insure such a repository.

When I watched the BBC Reporting Scotland report on this last week, the glee of the participants holding up the documentation, laughing, was offensive. Proposing to turn the North Sea into a toxic waste dump by injecting supercritical carbon dioxide in through a needle into the crust seems extremely dubious. We are experts in letting gases and liquids OUT of the crust - and by enhancing that escape using volatile CO2. In contrast, I would say we are kidding ourselves if we think about putting it back in safely, for all time and thereby giving the burning of fossil fuels new credibility!!!

118

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 04/05/2009 18:16:17
#136 & 137 Joseph Black and Dr Mike

Well you both say you want debate but neither of you address, let alone answer, the points I have raised. But then I see Mr Black is a fan of Monckton, so I could hardly expect better.

For those who don't know Monckton, you can get a flavour of the man by reading this:

http://www.heartland.org/full/24881/Great_Is_Truth_and_Mighty_Above_All_Things.html

Whilst you are at it you might like to bear in mind that you are reading the keynote valedictory address of the premier international conference of those who refer to themselves as "climate sceptics", ie the Heartland Institute 2009 conference in New York, written by Monckton, a senior member of that sad group. Otherwise, you might imagine that your were reading the adolescent scribblings of some spotty nosed student addressing the university fruitcake society.

And if you want more details of how Monckton falsifies data and misleads his gullible supporters, like, apparently Mr Joseph Black, read this:

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2009/05/moncktons-deliberate-manipulation/langswitch_lang/it#comment-122034

119

Norma,

Edinburgh 05/05/2009 12:41:31
As a mother and grandmother I think it is totally amoral, not only for ourselves but also for our future generations, to dump all this toxic waste anywhere around our shoreline. I find it still even more incredulous that we would consider accommodating other nations poison so close to home! Maybe if each nation were left to get rid of their own contaminated noxious waste they would not be so keen to produce it!
120

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 05/05/2009 16:32:36
#139 Norma

What we are talking about here is just carbon dioxide - not any other substance.

Carbon dioxide is only "toxic" in very high concentrations (that would rapidly disperse into the air if any were to escape). Carbon dioxide is already present in quantities amounting to trillions of tons in the atmosphere, where it forms an essential part of the carbon cycle, amongst other things being absorbed by growing plants. Every mouth of food you have ever eaten (or that your children and grandchildren will ever eat)has relied on carbon dioxide in the atmosphere for its production.

The problem being addressed by burying the carbon dioxide under the North Sea is that by burning fossil fuels (coal, oil etc) we have increased the amount of carbon dioxide by about 38% over its normal amount, and this has caused the Earth to warm and change the climate. This problem will get far worse unless we greatly reduce the amount of carbon dioxide we put into the atmosphere.

Your children and grandchildren will not thank you if we fail because their world will increasingly deteriorate.
121

livilion,

livingston 05/05/2009 22:47:47
94 Joseph Black
ALL ABOUT Improved Oil Recovery?
Naw actually, its about hydrogen power generation, but the term used since they started using it in Texas 35 years ago is Enhanced Oil Recovery, since pedantry is the gemme.

And naw its not ALL ABOUT EOR, but I reckon 20+years of revenue from the Miller field would be better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

Dr Doom and his skin cream chemistry might consider: that since the Americans started injecting carbon dioxide into their oil fields the tide has continued to ebb and flo, the sun still rises in the morning and the good folks of Texas sleep soundly in their beds unconcerned by the chemistry going on under their soil, ungased to death-so far.

90% cleaner energy production than we put up with now, with HM Govt committed to reduce UK carbon emmissions on an ever decreasing scale, currently down from 20% to about 10% (or less if they can get away with it?)and available within the lifetime of a parliament. I'd take it.


BP and Rio Tinto joined forces recently to form Hydrogenenergy and are now taking the Peterhead project to other willing partner states, like this video presentation's in Abu Dhabi.

http://www.hydrogenenergy.com/43.html
122

livilion,

livingston 05/05/2009 23:11:35
#139 Norma

Yes, why not encourage a plan to reduce global CO2 output by also getting the gullible and feeble of wit to hold their breath for an hour every day?

 

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