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Abortion debate: MPs reject call for time limit cut

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Published Date: 21 May 2008
AN ATTEMPT to lower the time limit for abortions in the UK has failed, after MPs last night resisted emotive pleas from pro life campaigners.
A bid to lower the maximum term for abortions from 24 weeks of conception to 22 weeks was defeated, alongside plans for a more drastic cut to 12 weeks.

It was the first time the issue of abortion had been debated as part of a government bill for 18 years. The last time was 1990, when abortion times were cut from 28 weeks. But months of behind the scenes campaigning from religious groups motivated MPs to introduce amendments to the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill (HFE).

In three hours of impassioned debate, most of it on the anti abortion side, MPs discussed the scope for limiting the procedure. One of the main considerations was at what age an aborted foetus could survive.

There was evidence showing medical advances could help a baby as young as 25 weeks to survive, but scientists have argued that there is not enough proof to show any but a tiny percentage could live if born at 24 weeks or less.

Edward Leigh, a former Conservative minister and a father of six, put forward an amendment to bring the UK into line with the 12 week limit of other European countries, such as France, Portugal, Austria, Belgium, Germany, Greece and Spain.

This was rejected by 393 votes to 71. An attempt then to reduce abortion term limits to 16 weeks was also rejected by more than 300 MPs, while a bid to cut the time limit to 20 weeks was rejected by 332 to 190.

A much tighter vote came on the amendment proposing cutting the limit to 22 weeks, which was also rejected by 233 to 304; a majority of 71. Ahead of the vote, Mr Leigh made an impassioned plea.

"In modern Britain the most dangerous place to be is your mother's womb," he said. "It should be a place of sanctity."

He said that "98 per cent of abortions are social – only 1.3 per cent are for foetuses which are handicapped, 0.4 per cent are for risk to mother's life. It is a bleak picture of modern Britain."

Nadine Dorries, a Tory MP who unsuccessfully tried to introduce a private bill to limit abortions, described how she had been turned against them after witnessing abortions as a nurse. She recounted her experience of witnessing a "botched" abortion where a little boy survived for seven minutes.

"A live abortion became a death in seven minutes. I knew then that one day I would be able to stand up and defend children like him," she said. Claire Curtis Thomas, a Christian Labour MP, said she was not opposed to abortion, believing that women have the right to choose.

"I just hope they don't choose to have an abortion," she said, adding that she would be happier with a 12 week limit.

Mark Pritchard, a Conservative MP, called for the limit to be 16 weeks.

"I believe that terminating a child should be a choice of last resort – not the latest manifestation of Britain's throwaway society."

Mr Pritchard also brandished pictures of a foetus at 16 weeks, saying it showed a "living, small human being".

Mike Penning, the shadow health minister, argued that women should be given more time to think before they made the difficult decision to have an abortion.

He said the "sheer quantity" of repeat abortions was "enormously disturbing".

However, Christine McCafferty, a Labour MP, said restricting when a woman can have a termination "is just prolonging the agony".

Evan Harris, the Lib Dems' science spokesman and a doctor, said it was not the role of a GP to "hector or impose on women burdensome information about the methods of abortion" if they did not want to know.

But Anne Widdecombe, a former Tory minister and a Catholic, insisted that the rights of women were already limited at terminating a pregnancy up to 24 weeks. She added that if more people could see the babies that were being "wantonly, and I believe wickedly" killed, then there would be public uproar.

She added: "We have in this country a situation in which you can have two children, of exactly the same age and gestation – exactly the same – and one is in a cot with all the resources of medical science being poured into saving it and the other is quite deliberately being taken from the womb and destroyed.

"That is moral anarchy," she said. "That is a totally unjustifiable state of affairs."

Miss Widdecombe urged MPs to protect the most "vulnerable in our midst".

Dawn Primarolo, the UK health minister, said there was no scientific evidence to warrant a reduction in the time limit. She warned that reducing it would force a small number of women who sought late abortions to go elsewhere. And she asked: "Wouldn't it be appalling if we drove women back to where they were before the 1967 act?"

She also rejected calls to remove disability as a ground for abortion, asking: "Is it right to force a woman to carry a child ( with a serious handicap] until it dies in the womb, or is born with no chance of survival?"

David Cameron, the Conservative leader, earlier said he would vote to lower the limit to 22 weeks, although he expected colleagues to vote in all different ways. Nick Clegg, the Lib Dems' leader, was expected to reject any moves to restrict abortions. Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, voted against any reduction, after insisting there was no medical evidence to justify a change in the law.

Alex Salmond, the First Minister, also made a rare trip to take up his seat in the Commons. He was expected to have voted for a reduction in the abortion limit to 20 weeks. Des Browne, the Defence Secretary, Ruth Kelly, Transport Secretary and Paul Murphy, the Welsh Secretary, voted in favour of cutting the time limit to 12 weeks. It was the last in a series of free votes on amendments to the HFE Bill. Earlier, MPs voted to include an amendment which ensures clinics prescribing IVF consider a child's "need for a father". Under the present Bill, IVF clinics would only have to take account of the need for "supportive parenting".

And, on Monday, they rejected proposals to ban research using human animal embryos and the creation of so called "saviour siblings".

Despite the vote, abortion on demand remains illegal in the UK. A woman must have the consent of two doctors, on the grounds that a pregnancy will harm her health, before she receives to go ahead to have an abortion.

Pro-choice campaigners have argued that it is this requirement that often forces women to have abortions late. They have pointed out that in other European countries with much shorter term limits, women are granted abortions much more readily.

Following the vote, Louise Hutchins, the campaigns coordinator for Abortion Rights, said: "This was never about the time limit, but women's rights to access safe and legal abortions.

"But there is a long way to go yet. Now we want to see the end of the intolerable situation where women in Northern Ireland do not have any access to safe, legal abortions."

Anne Quesney, the head of advocacy at reproductive healthcare service Marie Stopes International, welcomed the vote as a "victory for common sense" and a defeat for a "minority religious lobby". She added: "(This vote] spells relief for women across the country.

"It is reassuring that a majority of MPs were wise to the emotive and misleading campaign that sought to chip away at women's reproductive rights, and disregarded it in exercising their votes."

Undeterred, pro-life campaigners vowed to start lobbying afresh to reduce the time limit on abortions.

Josephine Quintavalle, a spokeswoman for the Alive and Kicking Alliance, said: "It was always going to be a numbers game.

"We are not disappointed – this has shone the spotlight on the abortion debate for the first time in 18 years and we have seen how Labour MPs line up. This will influence our activities in the run up to the next election."

Ian Lucas, the campaign coordinator of the All Party Parliamentary Pro Life Group, said: "We are disappointed MPs have not seen fit to recognise the wishes of three quarters of the population by lowering the time limit. This comes despite pleas from many to recognise research which has shown that children younger than 24 weeks can survive."

How Scots MPs voted.

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 21 May 2008 5:08 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Abortion
 
1

Houssine,

Paris/Fr 21/05/2008 09:29:40
As muslim and human i'm against the killing of embryon of two week.
The aborption for me me is a crim like an other crims.I don't understand why a woman can have the right to judge on the life or the dead of a person??
His body was only an instrument of the God.The life was a complexe process.If a woman have a materiel problem and don't want his children this is a public problem.
I don't understand why we speak about the embryon as nothing??
Since the begining the life ,philosophers,religions...in all civilisation have debated to know or to give a definition of a life.For me the life become whit the fecundation ,in the first seconds of the fecundation the soul take place inside the embryon.It's not correct to give the right for a poor woman or teenager the right to kill his life inside his body.I think we can take public mesure as if a woman don't want his child the public authority take the charge of this children.
needjar@yahoo.fr
2

hertscot,

21/05/2008 09:54:53
At last common sense and consideration of evidence has prevailed over religious dogma and political needs. I don't say this often, but well done to the UK parliament.
3

Tim C,

Southern England 21/05/2008 09:56:53
1/Houssine of Paris should understand that the British culture hates children, i.e. relative to other European cultures. Reasons for terminating a pregnancy at more than twenty weeks might include the health of the mother or defects in the foetus. Forty years ago a premature birth at 22 weeks was not viable; now medical science has developed, the law should be changed. It is curious that well-paid MPs with expense accounts are quick to approve laws restricting our rights, but not so hot at protecting the most vulnerable form of human life.
4

Jambo Number 1,

21/05/2008 09:59:01
I am glad we live in a country that does not capitulate to the minority extremist fundamentalists and minority religious fundamentalists who want to force their beliefs upon the rest of us.
5

Jambo Number 1,

21/05/2008 10:00:43
oh and 1 - It is the womans body and her choice. It is not up to you, god or anyone else!
6

Boy Wonder,

21/05/2008 10:00:49
Now and again, MPs DO get it right. This was one of those rare occassions!
7

FSU,

Scotland 21/05/2008 10:12:04
Let's keep the debate on track. The issue: what is the status of the unborn? Simply tissue or a human person? If simply tissue then what's the big deal about abortion anytime anywhere? If a human person then we need to protect them as we would protect any child. Since information is the key, my deepest concern is the comments of Evan Harris's comments (see above) who suggests such enlightenment should be held back when it proves "burdensome." ???
#5 - curious argument since simple biology establishes the unborn is not part of the women's body, with completely separate brain, nervous system, genetic make-up etc.
8

,

21/05/2008 10:16:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
9

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 21/05/2008 10:27:06
Jambo, but those against anything are always branded by the same title. Could your views be treated in the same manner. As Scots we above any other should be carefull when we throw names around.

As someone who has a daughter who unfortunately died after a reletavely young life, and would have been 23 this year. I think I know how much I value life, and I fight for the bairns rights because of experience. We fought in everyway possible to keep our daughter, and that is all I am A S K I N G others to do. As for fundamentalists, isnt that what all points of view are.

However in this case mate, I will not just wipe your beliefs away as a trivial thing, because I respect others point of view on this matter. Its called Freedom of Speech and its our 2nd most valuable right.
10

Jambo Number 1,

21/05/2008 10:31:29
#7 - Well I am no Biologist, not even a "simple" one.

But it is the mothers choice, not Gods yours and mine. If mothers are devout then fine, we know what they will be doing, but force everyone to follow their perverse ways? No thanks!!
11

Smutley,

Embra 21/05/2008 10:31:41
Would you outlaw abortion in all circumstances, ABW?
12

Venachar,

21/05/2008 10:37:20
#8

You seem to have a low opinion of women and the choices they may have to make. The abortion bill was originally brought in for very good reason.
The current objections are the same as when the original bill was brought forward and have not changed in thirty years. They are mainly religious in origin.

I doubt if any woman who chooses to have an abortion takes it as lightly as you would appear to suggest.
On this occasion I think that our elected representatives have got it right.

As a hetrosexual male I do not however see the logic in making IVF available to lesbians. This does seem to me to now be an on demand service just because it is available. Should sp*rm donors not now have a choice in these circumstances?

Sp*rm appears to be an unsuitable word according to the Scotsman!!
13

FSU,

21/05/2008 10:45:56
#7 - I don't claim to be a biologist either but you raised a good point since it is important to note the distinction between a mother and her unborn child. The next question is what is the status of that unborn child? Again, if simply tissue attached to her, then the mother should have an operation (like any other operation) to remove something attached and unwanted: like removing a cancer. However, if the unborn is a person (something we would establish according to whatever criteria we use for "a person") then the mother's choice is not the issue. Elevating the mother's choice over another person's right to live, even if it was her child, equates to infanticide. A good way to check your argument is to see if it also supports a mother's right to kill her troublesome toddler (e.g. if you don't help her she'll just go down a back-alley and do it herself!)
14

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 21/05/2008 10:46:08
Great to see common sense prevail in Parliament. I wish these religious (aka superstitious claptrap) people would keep their bigoted views about abortion to themselves. If they don't want an abortion themselves then that is their right but they have no right to seek to modify the way the rest of us live based upon the fairytale books and “teachings” (aka prejudices) of their various religions.

Well done MPs.
15

Houssine,

Paris.Fr 21/05/2008 10:52:25
Don't mistake your self.Ok for the free debate but i think we are all complice of the crime for each children was killing whitout reason.Ok this is the body of woman but the embryon also have a body.As we can't kill a person we can't kill a children.I'm not a findamentalist i think it's necessarly to preserve a minimum of our imoral societies.If women take contraceptif they are not problems.The embryon was an independant person,the embryon is me and you.How i can imagine one second my mather can by himself judge about my life?? Bless to the God if she life in ignorant societies to explain them she have the right of aborption i'm sure i'm not her today.It's necessarly to understand the women and the embryon it's two person in one body and this situation don't give the right for the mother to kill his children.
needjar@yahoo.fr
16

Em,

21/05/2008 10:52:32
I watched the vote take place on TV last night. I noticed that during the debates the subject of feotal pain was brought up by some MP's arguying for a reduction in the time limit, this area was completely ignored by pro-abortion MP's.

All I can take from this is that the majority of MP's recognise that when a baby is aborted at around 24 weeks it can feel the physical pain of being ripped apart yet this doesn't seem to matter.

In light of the public opinion polls conducted that show the majority of women desire a reduction in the 24 week limit. It's clear that our elected MP's have ceased to represent the views of the people who elected them.
17

Media 1,

cape town 21/05/2008 11:02:39
Who decides what is right in this instance? And who is the pro abortion lobbiest who is going to support the thousands of unwanted children born to mothers with no hope of mothering them?
Abortion is a personal choice and it should left at that. Some things we do good, some things we do bad, but we dont do everything good, so when other people do things we dont agree with lets remember the flaws in our own character and take stock of the bigger picture.
In terms of the church and their involvement, we cannot take their views seriously.
18

Em,

21/05/2008 11:05:36
#12 Venachar

The fact that 30% of abortions are repeat abortions with some of these women having several abortions shows that there is a vast amount of women who do take the issue lightly, it also shows that abortions are too easy to get.
19

hertscot,

21/05/2008 11:11:24
ABW & FSU,
there is no scientific or medical evidence to support a reduction in the abortion time limit, that is what MPs voted on. Current medical evidence suggests that at 24 weeks a premature birth has a good chance of survival, at 23 weeks this chance of survival drops to around 20%, and at 22 weeks, even with the best care we can give, the survival rate is effectively 0%, and this after decades of medical advances. I would suggest that on this evidence that status of a foetus could be said to be unviable at less than 24 weeks.

And as to the argument about whether the foetus is a person, it would seem that nature/genetics/biology has decided 23/24 weeks gestation is required to at least give life a chance.

The overwhelming majority of terminations take place at less than 16 weeks (around 95%, I believe), when the foetus is not naturally viable nor can it be made so by medical/scientific intervention.

I don't like the idea of abortion and would prefer if it was never used, however I also don't believe that any woman takes the decision lightly, or without some emotional trauma. Trying to make this a moral or religious cause celebre helps no one, clouds the measured and scientific approach of the medical community and stigmatises those women who have to make this choice for whatever reason. If people really want to stop unwanted pregnances, then we would be educating women and especially men with regards to appropriate contraception for the individual, but this takes time and resources.

Again well done MPs!
20

hertscot,

21/05/2008 11:14:22
Em,
From my understanding the usual reason for repeat abortions is due to genetic conditions that parents want to avoid in their children. Perhaps they should make another human suffer because they want a baby?
21

Venachar,

21/05/2008 11:16:30
#18

If the figure you state is correct then would it not seem preferable to find out why.
Whose figure is the 30% repeat abortions anyway?
22

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 21/05/2008 11:17:58
#1 and #18 and all the rest of you anti-abortionists

The reason you will always lose the vote in a secular free society like ours is because you are disingenuous in the extreme with your arguments. If your religion says "no abortion" then be honest, stand up in Parliament and campaign for "no abortion". Full stop.

But people "with religion" are not honest (funny that, I thought to lie - even by omission is a "sin"). No, they can't just be straight and demand "no abortion" because know they don’t have a pray (no pun intended). Instead they have to try and chip away at the time limit: this year they want 22 weeks, next year 20, eventually 12 then no abortion at all. Don’t worry the rest of us see through that sham.

A plague on all their religious houses and long live liberty under a secular society.
23

FSU,

21/05/2008 11:21:31
#14 - you make a point but miss the point. "They have no right to seek to modify the way the rest of us live." Overlooking the fact the "right to seek to modify the way the rest of us live" basically reflects the political process (do you suggest we scrap politics, or do you only deny this right of argument to those you don't like?) Then to use your argument, if the unborn is a person, what right does the mother have to "modify" the way they live - or don't as is the case?
24

IanW,

Ottobrunn 21/05/2008 11:21:41
I find myself in a strange position regarding abortion. On one hand I can support it in certain limited circumstances where for example, a)the mother's health is a grave risk, b) the child is likely to be severely handicapped, or, c) where the pregnancy was as a result of rape.

Otherwise I am against abortion in general as too many women (I exclude men because it ultimately has to do with the mother's body) choose this as a form of contraception or because they suddenly realise the huge responsibilities that come with bearing a child. As someone else said we seem to treat everything as disposable in our throw away society.

Personally, if abortion is allowed, I would have no objections to lowering the limit to 20 weeks as medical advances can maintain and save the life in some case the new born baby.

One major gripe I have about legal abortions though is WHO PAYS? Should the majority finance those who choose no to have the child or should they be made to obtain private medical treatment?

Tough question as if they cannot afford private treatment we could end up with risky bnack street abortions which could be worse.

Difficult problem which no-one can win I think.
25

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 21/05/2008 11:32:24
Sobering to note that the self-proclaimed left wing alternative for Scotland Alex Salmond "was expected to vote for a reduction to 20 weeks". Is this what women can expect from an SNP Govt in a separatist Scotland, then - a rolling back of the clock to before 1967, a position where males in the Scottish Parliament will decide what rights Scottish women may have over their bodies?

And don't be fooled by the various "limits" on offer to MPs last night - this debate was never about whether foetuses are now more viable at 20 weeks than they were 15 years ago. It is a straightforward fight between extremist religious dogma on one hand, and science and women's rights on the other. The ultimate aim of the majority of those so-called pro-lifers campaigning in such emotional terms is simple - they want a recriminalisation of all abortion.

I have no problem with people believing in fairies at the bottom of the garden if that helps them to avoid the harsh realities of life. But I do have a problem when they try to impose the invented rules of their fantasy Gods on the majority who prefer a rational, scientific approach to how the world works.

No-one forces the religious zealots to undergo abortions, or indeed to benefit from any of the life-saving medical treatments available as a result of all the scientific research which they would see banned. Equally, the zealots have no right to deny those choices to those who dismiss their imaginary Gods in favour of proven science.
26

FSU,

21/05/2008 11:45:29
#19 - nice to hear a reasoned response to the issue and defence of your position...

>there is no scientific or medical evidence to support a reduction in the abortion time limit.

Your statement is incorrect since the scientific information is what it is, it is up to others to decide if a reduction in the time-limit is warranted - the very reason the issue was debated (and is debatable)

>Current medical evidence suggests that at 24 weeks a premature birth has a good chance of survival, at 23 weeks this chance of survival drops to around 20%

On statistics alone, and according to the BMJ you are defending a position that effectively supports killing 20% of babies aborted between 23-24 weeks.

>I would suggest that on this evidence that status of a foetus could be said to be unviable at less than 24 weeks.

How do you reconcile this with your earlier affirmation that unborn babies from 23 weeks have a 20% chance of survival? Maybe one week is negiligible to you, but I'm sure any baby born prematurely at 23 weeks - and lived to tell about it - would argue differently.

> And as to the argument about whether the foetus is a person, it would seem that nature/genetics/biology has decided 23/24 weeks gestation is required.

Encouraging to hear you understand and respond honestly to the key issue: what makes a person a person? However, I struggle to see how people defending abortion can ignore additional considerations (clearly evident before birth and prior to 24 weeks) of the unborn's overall sensitivity, ability to respond to stimuli, experience of pain, physical development, brain function, etc.

27

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 21/05/2008 12:01:36
Foetuses are not "babies". Mis-using language for emotional blackmail (see also "pro-life") is a cheap trick which exposes the weakness of your position. Nothing is a "baby" until it's born.
28

Em,

21/05/2008 12:02:27
Mikko

I made no reference to religion, but I understand that it is a tactic of the pro abortionists to paint everyone who does not agree with them as having religion as the reason for their disagreement in order to discredit their opponent.
Resort to these devious tactics if you must but the majority of people see through it and realise that they do not need to turn to religion to advise them on the nature of abortion.

Also, if all the MP's who were arguying for a reduction in the time limit were merely pro lifers who wanted an end to abortion all together then why did very few vote for a reduced time limit of 12 weeks when compared to the number of MP's who voted for a reduced time limit of 22 weeks. Surely if they all wanted to end abortion then all those who voted for a reduction would have voted for it at 12 weeks.

29

Smutley,

Embra 21/05/2008 12:03:11
IanW:

"a)the mother's health is a grave risk, b) the child is likely to be severely handicapped, or, c) where the pregnancy was as a result of rape."

The thing is, none of these is the fault of the foetus. If a person is anti-abortion on the principle that you should not kill another person, how can the foetus be killed just because, say, it was the result of rape?

It's clear that the vast majority of people think "no, a foetus is not a person; it becomes one at some point during pregnancy". The question is indeed about what that means.

Talk of maternal circumstances is, IMO, a red herring, beloved of misogynists (I'm looking at you, A Better Way ;)).
30

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 21/05/2008 12:04:25
For the first time in their 3 terms of office, this pathetic government have made the correct decision about something.

It's about time they started ignoring the loonies. Pity they couldn't have done the same with the anti-hunting and anti-smoking loonies as well.
31

Em,

21/05/2008 12:04:40
#27 Rev

Perhaps you could enlighten me on the magical transformation that takes place during birth
32

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 21/05/2008 12:10:26
#31 Certainly - when the umbilical cord is cut the foetus becomes an independent being, breathing oxygen through its lungs like a normal human rather than having all of its needs delivered through a tube in its stomach. Until such times as it is not physically connected to the mother, it's simply a parasitic growth of living tissue within her body. That it has a heartbeat is of no material consequence - cancer cells are "alive" too.
33

Scotland to prosper...,

21/05/2008 12:10:46
It's obvious to me that as long as there’s no medical issue, having an abortion is shirking ones responsibilities.

People would think twice about their actions if it wasn't so easy to erase the consequences.

Think of the hundreds of thousands of lives lost that could have had some sort of positive impact on humanity.
34

Em,

21/05/2008 12:15:50
Rev

If we were to take your point and assume that it is not a human because it's needs are delivered through a tube.

Can I also assume that you consider anyone in hospital recieving treatment through a tube to be a non human parasite also.

35

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 21/05/2008 12:21:55
#34 Only if it's in their stomach.

Your pathetically facetious question deserves an equally facetious answer.
36

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 21/05/2008 12:24:24
#33 "Think of the hundreds of thousands of lives lost that could have had some sort of positive impact on humanity."

Or grown up to be the next Fred West, or just some everyday knife-toting misery-creation-scheme on legs.

It is beyond all rational debate that this planet is over-populated. Anyone loudly demanding the addition of millions of extra lives per year - unwanted lives, at that - is a criminally irresponsible ideological stooge.
37

An Beal Bacht,

21/05/2008 12:24:51
32 Rev. S. Campbell, Bath 21/05/2008 12:10:26 wrote:

"#31 Certainly - when the umbilical cord is cut the foetus becomes an independent being, breathing oxygen through its lungs like a normal human rather than having all of its needs delivered through a tube in its stomach. Until such times as it is not physically connected to the mother, it's simply a parasitic growth of living tissue within her body. That it has a heartbeat is of no material consequence - cancer cells are "alive" too."

You are one sick puppy.
38

An Beal Bacht,

21/05/2008 12:27:00
36 Rev. S. Campbell, Bath 21/05/2008 12:24:24 wrote:

"It is beyond all rational debate that this planet is over-populated. Anyone loudly demanding the addition of millions of extra lives per year - unwanted lives, at that - is a criminally irresponsible ideological stooge."

How about you volunteering to free up some space?
39

Em,

21/05/2008 12:31:15
Rev

Or perhaps you can't give a decent answer to the question.

A mother during pregnancy is the most natural form of life support, abortion is the removal of a person from that life support.

A doctor in a hospital would never remove a person from a life support machine if the chances of survival were very high but depended on that person recieving life support

P.S If you are really a reverend and I was one of your parishioners I would advise that you don't visit me in hospital, especially if I required feeding through a tube in my stomach.
40

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 21/05/2008 12:33:25
#39 Perhaps you can't read a dictionary. A "parasite" is an organism that lives off another while directly causing harm to the host. A sick person on life support does not fit this definition, because they are not directly harming another organism.
41

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 21/05/2008 12:34:59
#38 I will indeed be doing so. When I die, there will be no descendants of mine to replace me. Still, it's funny to see how quickly "pro-lifers" get round to wishing death on others.
42

Scotland to prosper...,

21/05/2008 12:39:45
#36 Your point is both poor and irrelevant

Who are we to deny a fellow human being their right to life just because we suspect they might turn out to be a less than decent human being.

I think every person is at least allowed a chance of life. It’s society that’ll determine whether or not they turn out to be the next “Fred West” as you suggest.

Indeed your attitude does nothing to advance the human race and the relationship we have with each other. The world is not over populated and to suggest otherwise is both insular and small-minded.

The bottom line is, no matter what stage the pregnancy is at, the end result is a human being and to terminate a pregnancy is to end a life.


43

Houssine,

Paris.Fr 21/05/2008 12:40:35
Ok, than you oppose the scintific rationality to dogmatisms? Than we can authorise the scientific to selection the bad and the good embryon?? The colour of the eyes?? and whit the genetics we can extermine all embryon who present a risk for a societies and preserve the good embryons.In this days scientific practice manipulation between human embryons and animal embryon ,i'm sure in few years in the name of the God science we will have a new human species a hibryd between man and animal.
needjar@yahoo.fr
44

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 21/05/2008 12:43:57
#42 "Who are we to deny a fellow human being their right to life just because we suspect they might turn out to be a less than decent human being."

I'm not doing any such thing. Foetuses are NOT HUMAN BEINGS. Human beings breathe oxygen through their noses and consume nutrients through their mouths. I am not proposing the murder of infants, merely defending the right of women to choose what to do about parasitic growths within their bodies that may, if they chose to allow it, eventually BECOME human beings.

My objection was the the sentimentalist drivel that all aborted foetuses would grow up to be the next Gandhi. It's just as likely they'd grow up to be the next Slobodan Milosevic, and far more likely that they'd simply grow up to be another vast resource-consumption-unit among the far too many billions that we already struggle to feed.
45

hertscot,

21/05/2008 12:44:03
#26 FSU

Thanks for the reasoned reply.
"it is up to others to decide if a reduction in the time-limit is warranted - the very reason the issue was debated (and is debatable)"

I don't believe that reducing the time limit will stop abortions, and it will exclude, or more certainly, severely restrict access to legal and safe late abortions, generally late abortions are medical interventions, and probably not wanted by the mother (supposition - I know) who has carried the foetus for 6 months. And as you point out the scientific evidence is what it is, none to support the reduction in time, after this point it becomes a matter of emotion/morals/dogma/personality. This is not what we should base laws and legal frameworks on.

"On statistics alone, and according to the BMJ you are defending a position that effectively supports killing 20% of babies aborted between 23-24 weeks."

There is no way of telling if a 23 week old foetus is viable, the argument about the killing of babies is wrong and goes for the emotional heart strings, this is not a baby, a natural born healthy baby does not need an incubator, ventillator, blood transfusions, feeding tubes and medicines and 24 hour medical care.

"Maybe one week is negiligible to you, but I'm sure any baby born prematurely at 23 weeks - and lived to tell about it - would argue differently."

I am sure they would, but again this is an emotional argument, and I would sooner see all premature births survive. but from a scientific/statistical point of view, a 20% viability may be considered good or bad, to change a law for one week I would argue is bad as future arguments would be generated every time a foetus a day younger survived, I think it is a fact of life, that the review of these laws, necessarily has to be done over a long time frame. Perhaps in 10 years time science and medicine will allow for a reduction to 12 weeks, this could probably be done now for most abortions if some of the rules were amended.

46

Em,

21/05/2008 12:55:00
40 Rev

directly causing harm to the host- your words

What harm would that be, I'm pregnant and I have never felt better I have an unexplained desire to eat health foods and my hair is nice and glossy into the bargain.
On the other hand abortion has been shown to have an adverse affect to the health of the woman and can cause fertility problems.
I understand that in a few cases pregnancy can cause serious jeopardy to the life of the mother and in such cases abortion may be necessary, but overall pregnancy does not cause ill health but instead can bring many health bennefits.

Anyway, I have to be off now so I'll let you continue to spread the good news to others :)
47

Scotland to prosper...,

21/05/2008 12:55:21
#42

Are you stating that you do not believe that at conception, that is not the beginning of a life?

Granted there are many other issues and dilemma’s the foetus has to go through before being able to breath for itself etc, but the potential for life is there and to terminate that is wrong.

No-one is suggesting they will become the next Ghandi but given the shear numbers of abortions, surely you must admit there would have been some who would have contributed greatly to society.

My primary point is that abortions allow people, not just women to reject the consequences of their actions and in my view that dilutes the importance of young life in society and the value of it.
48

wee_one,

21/05/2008 13:03:36
Firstly, lets get one thing straight. I am the least religious person you are likely to meet. However, religion is not the only reason someone might feel uncomfortable about abortion. As a woman, I am in favour of a woman's right to choose what happens to her body, and to abort a pregnancy if she feels she has no other option. What I am not in favour of is women using abortion as contraception. Anyone that says this does not happen is naive and does not fully understand the stupidity of some young girls - even supposedly intelligent ones like my flatmate at university, who at 19, got pregnant.

A few weeks before the pregnancy, she had joked that she thought she must be infertile because she had had so much unprotected sex and never got pregnant. After the abortion she made numerous tasteless jokes about it which I found sickening, even at a young age. Now that I have started trying to get pregnant, and have friends who have been trying unsuccessfully for years, I feel even more strongly that abortions should not be so easy to get, especially multiple abortions for non-medical reasons. Your perspective changes when you realise the heartache of women who can't concieve. A potential life should not be thrown away lightly, especially if, in the case of my old flatmate, no attempt was made to prevent its conception in the first place.
49

Smutley,

21/05/2008 13:17:57
Wee one, why should one person's fertility (or lack) affect another's decision to have an abortion? Should your flatmate be forced to carry the unwanted baby to term because your other friend is having problems?

Again, there's too much judgment on people's motives involved in this debate.

I agree that it should not be used for contraception, but the government was not (and, perhaps, should not) debate which motives are acceptable and which aren't.
50

jazzmann,

leicester 21/05/2008 13:27:03
I was in favour of abortions when this originally was brought into the open to stop back street abortionists, I still am, But,I think this time limit is too long as the baby, ( and yes it is a baby no matter what other words you like to call it) has started to develop human traits and limbs etc.
I do honestly think that if the parliamentary scum were to either view by video or to be present at a 24 week abortion ,then I think this vote would be much differant . A childs,Legs ,arms torso & head being ripped out of a female manually to clean the womb is not a pretty sight . It`s also the reason why some medical staff will not be part of any abortion and not anything to do with religion.
51

wee_one,

21/05/2008 13:28:20
#49

I was not suggesting my flatmate should have been forced to do anything - she was probably quite right to choose an abortion as she was clearly unfit to be a parent at that stage of her life. My only issue with her was that she had chosen not to use contraception and used abortion instead. I think the system somehow needs to discourage this.

It is my understanding that many infertile couples who would like to adopt a baby cannot do so because there are so few babies actually needing adopted these days, presumably because of the high rate of abortions. Perhaps the option of having the baby and having another couple adopt it could be discussed more?
52

Smutley,

21/05/2008 13:40:07
Wee_one: Ah I see, fair dos. Sounds like a good plan.

Never having had an abortion myself, I don't know if these sorts of things are ever discussed.

It is my understanding, though, that you have to get two medics to agree before you can get one. So there is some sort of consideration involved.

No doubt, some would argue that access should be more restricted, but that's a different issue to the time limit question.
53

ddmc,

21/05/2008 13:47:22
What happens to the kids who arent wanted ?
54

wee_one,

21/05/2008 13:58:07
#53

My suggestion would be to offer a woman who is considering an abortion the opportunity to meet with a previously vetted couple who want to adopt a baby. Many women abort pregnancies because they think they can't cope - they may not be comfortable with the idea of abortion but can't see any other way. Perhaps if they could actually meet and talk to a loving couple who desperately want to bring up the baby, it might open another option for some?

I'm certainly not suggesting having lots of unwanted babies born, but perhaps this needs to be more widely discussed.
55

SHELDON THE CRACK DEALER,

21/05/2008 14:05:22
I see the usual and expected selection or morons making unthinking comments about superstitions and religious dogma here.

Maybe we don't live in a country which gives in to the minority views of religious fundamentalists, but I'm starting to think we live in a country which gives in to every other nutcase minority, not least secular.

There's no reason other than unforeseen medical complications why a woman needs 6 months to decide if she wants a baby or not - that's 2/3s of the gestation period FFS.

Secondly, if a baby was born at 24 weeks it wouldn't be euthanised, even though it would probably have life long complications and even if the mother didn't want it, so why is it OK to kill a perfectly healthy baby (not Foetus) in the womb because of some lifestyle choice?

Something like 1.5% of abortions are carried out at this late stage, so it's only a minority of woman who want them - it's hardly adding millions of unwanted babies to the population.

This secular ideal that we have an inalieable right to have a certain lifestyle whatever the consequences is becoming an ogre -this is a complete disgrace, we've been railroaded by a vocal minority who want to prevent a debate on a serious issue - the rights of the unborn child.

What are they scared of, exactly? Well done Britain - you're now the only country in Western Europe which allows "lifestyle choice" abortion after 18 weeks.
56

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 21/05/2008 14:13:14
#46 "What harm would that be, I'm pregnant and I have never felt better I have an unexplained desire to eat health foods and my hair is nice and glossy into the bargain."

Good for you. But foetuses fit the medical definition of a parasite whether that suits your sentimental outlook or not. You're having to eat more food because the foetus is draining your own body's resources in order to grow itself. You probably had morning sickness. You may very well have piles. You're certainly putting a huge strain on your heart and skeleton dragging all the extra weight around.

You may very well consider all that to be more than worth it, of course, but that's not what's under discussion here. It doesn't alter the fact that in any accepted medical or scientific sense it's still "harm". Every last iota of energy used up by the foetus in the act of developing is taken directly from the host body.
57

Koffindodger,

Edinburgh 21/05/2008 14:17:35
Nice hot debate here luckily none of the extremist types here are in power or it would really suck to live in the UK.

It is always amusing to listen to the pro lifers foam at the mouth defending life whilst threatening it at the same time.

Also Houssine whilst your position seems admirable, defending the rights of a child from conception is pretty difficult when the mother has been murdered in an "honour" killing by relatives. Which is, as you must know common in some Muslim countries.

Well done MP's.
58

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 21/05/2008 14:25:08
#55 - "There's no reason other than unforeseen medical complications why a woman needs 6 months to decide if she wants a baby or not"

Mr Sheldon the Crack Dealer, I am assuming you are male and never likely to get pregnant. That being so, what exactly gives you the moral authority to decide for all women whether any particular reason for having or not having a baby is valid?

Far too much anecdotal nonsense both in this thread and in last night's debate, and not nearly enough analysis of the facts and realities surrounding the consequences of unwanted pregnancies taken to full term - as they all would be at the insistence of the zealots if they got their way.
59

A Clamper,

Edinburgh 21/05/2008 14:27:46
It's about time they put it back up to 28 weeks.
60

SHELDON THE CRACK DEALER,

21/05/2008 14:28:53
#56 maybe Kids are parasites then too? Women have evolved to carry that strain, and our ancestors were far more fecund than modern women, and far more active when pregnant, so i think the modern female body is well equiped for the relative comfort of modern pregnancy. Hosting a "parasite" or two doesn't seem to stop the average woman living 4 years longer than the average man in this country, does it?.....

We've been RAILROADED by a bunch of lifestyle choicers.

Also, why is the mainstream catholic church derided as "a minority of religious fundamentalists"?

The Catholic church believes in the sanctitiy of ALL human life.

Whether that's pragmatic or not, are you trying to deny that it's a great ideal?

There are many secularists who want us all to accept that we're nothing more than a random, if lucky, aggregation of chemical reactions.

To me wide acceptance of that would be far more dangerous!
61

FSU,

21/05/2008 14:30:45
#45 hertscot

Again, some good points again to interact with...

> I don't believe that reducing the time limit will stop abortions.

This is not the direct aim, stopping abortions. It is the need to respond to increased awareness and act in a way that reflects our understanding about the central issue.

> It will exclude, or more certainly, severely restrict access to legal and safe late abortions

It will not restrict access to legal abortions, since the later abortions would no longer be legal if the law was changed. As to the "safe late" issue, we don't legally provide abortion later in the pregnancy simply because the mother threatens to take things into her own hands.

>Generally late abortions are medical interventions.

I don't think you'll find many (if any) who support a reduction in the time-limit for abortions and who argue against the kind of "medical intervention procedures" you describe.

>it becomes a matter of emotion/morals/dogma/personality. This is not what we should base laws and legal frameworks on.

Why try to collapse the issue and suggest it is beyond reasonable comprehension? Legislation about moral matters is always emotive (and provocative) but it does not stop us from proposing (and passing) laws on the basis of what is most reasonable - allegedly.

>There is no way of telling if a 23 week old foetus is viable, the argument about the killing of babies is wrong and goes for the emotional heart strings, this is not a baby, a natural born healthy baby does not need an incubator, ventillator, blood transfusions, feeding tubes and medicines and 24 hour medical care.

Regarding the 23 week old foetus my argument is simple. If there is a 20% chance it is "viable" then on what basis do we decide that chance is not enough.
Regarding your circumstantial arguments about what qualifies as a "baby" you seem to suggest the "foetus" in the incubator still does not qualify?
Regarding your comments about a baby being "healthy" and
62

jamurai,

21/05/2008 14:32:59
There seam to be a lot of references to the "secular" society that we live in....Forgive me, but I believe that there are constitutionally established churches north and south of the border. I am catholic and yes I am against abortion in general- that is my private view. But Mikko (and others),how happy I would be to live in a truly "secular" society (look it up) a society which would fully SUPPORT my right to hold and express my own religious views, free form any prejudice and a society which would allow free and INTELLIGENT debate on the issue sensitive to the beliefs of ALL members of society, religious or not...These blind attacks on free-thinking religious views are just vitriolic forms of religious fanaticism and extremism in themselves- yes your religion Mikko, atheism.
63

jamurai,

21/05/2008 14:34:02
seem
sorry


64

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 21/05/2008 14:47:38
#62, Jamurai - no one is stopping the faith adherents from holding any private views or choosing to believe in any of their chosen brands of fairies at the bottom of the garden. The opposition is to the well-organised campaigns by an extremely vocal minority of believers to impose their odd and baseless belief systems on the UK's majority of unbelievers.

There are indeed "vitriolic forms of religious fanaticism and extremism" at work here, but they are not being promoted by the unbelievers. Oh, and atheism is, by definition, not a religion. Look it up.
65

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 21/05/2008 14:54:41
Indeed. If you're a Catholic (or a whatever) and you think abortion is wrong, then don't have one. What other people choose to do is none of your business. A foetus which lives inside a human being, is physically connected to it and relies entirely on it for respiration, sustenance and survival is by definition a part of that human being, not an independent entity. And accordingly, the choice over that foetus' future lies entirely with the fully-formed human being hosting it.
66

jamurai,

21/05/2008 15:11:41
atheism (plural atheisms)

Absence of belief in the existence of God or gods
The belief that a God does not exist.

in essence a religious stand point.

"impose their odd and baseless belief systems on the UK's majority of unbelievers...."- Do we not live in a DEMOCRACY? Do we not have the right to vocalize our beliefs? THis comment is just more of the abusive rhetoric I object to.
All I'm asking for is a platform for fair, reasoned debate.I don't want to impose my views on anyone undemocratically-though you seem to want to impose your views on me. The point that I can choose not to have an abortion myself is moot. The key issue here is a belief in the sanctity of life in general. Therefore you will find no "pro-lifer" satisfied by that comment, it is derogatory and offers no solution. Tell me my views are wrong but do it with dignity, not abuse!
67

jamurai,

21/05/2008 15:27:05
...and by the way 65, says who exactly?
68

Jambo Number 1,

21/05/2008 15:34:11
67

The point that I can choose not to have an abortion myself is moot. The key issue here is a belief in the sanctity of life in general.

----------------------------

This is of course, in my opinion, nonsense.

The fact is, you or any other person who holds views such as yours can choose NOT TO HAVE AN ABORTION. You don't hear me or anyone else complaining! Why? Because it is up to the individual! Nobody else!

But no, you and your like are not happy with this - No you want to change the laws so all of us have to do the same!

Post 22 sums it up perfectly - If you are against abortion you won't be happy with 20 weeks, the next this will be an all out ban.
69

IanW,

Ottobrunn 21/05/2008 15:36:12
Hi Smutley #29, I fully agree with your comment that "..none of these is the fault of the foetus.". My concern was that if abortion is to remain legal then we should at least try to limit the extent of its use by properly defining grounds.

As I said I don't hold with abortion just because of social circumstances, there is such a thing as contreception. Even if you are religous adherrent you can prevent pregnancy by abstaining.

I feel that the debate on abortion is going to continue for many, many years and may never be resolved to everyones satisfaction. I just hope that we can learn to live with each others opinions in a peaceful, caring way.
70

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 21/05/2008 15:47:14
#62 jamurai

You call me an atheist. How do you know what I am? I have always called religion superstitious claptrap but that doesn't mean that I don't have a personal belief in another force or being (call it God if you will). I do, I just don’t believe that I need a charlatan priest, pope, prophet or L.Ron Hubbard himself and the scientologists to tell me they are the “only true” way to be close to God .

So don't preach to me what I am; I happen to be an agnostic. For your information here is the definition of an agnostic:

a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.

b.One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.

c. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.

Ironically, jamurai, in #67 you state "Tell me my views are wrong but do it with dignity, not abuse!" Please then do me and others the same honour. I think that I am better placed to say what I personally happen to believe or not believe than you are. So don't abuse me.
71

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 21/05/2008 15:48:52
#67, Jamurai - "atheism (plural atheisms) - Absence of belief in the existence of God or gods. The belief that a God does not exist. in essence a religious stand point"

In essence, nothing of the kind. To dismiss all religions and belief systems as fantasies for which no scientific proof exists cannot in any way be described as a belief system, no matter how much it suits the prejudices of the believers to choose to define it thus.

"Do we not have the right to vocalize our beliefs? THis comment is just more of the abusive rhetoric I object to"

Exactly my point - you have a right to vocalise your fantasies. You do NOT however have a right, democratic or otherwise, to seek to impose your dangerous fantasies on the lifestyles of the rest of us.

"All I'm asking for is a platform for fair, reasoned debate"

No, you're not. You want a platform to IMPOSE what you believe on those who do not believe it. No believer is compelled to have an abortion. No believer has a right to compel any unbeliever not to have an abortion.

"The key issue here is a belief in the sanctity of life in general"

The key issue is where you get the moral authority to tell the rest of us what exactly constitutes sanctity of life. No unbeliever is about to concede that a declared belief in your particular brand of fairies at the bottom of the garden confers any such moral authority.

"Tell me my views are wrong but do it with dignity, not abuse"

I don't mind you having wrong-headed views, I mind your efforts to impose them on the rest of us. As to abuse, I don't think I offered any, I simply told you what you didn't want to hear.
72

Houssine,

Paris.Fr 21/05/2008 15:51:47
For me the killing of embryon was more condamnable for other crimes.
The embryon is an enttity like you and me they are not difference.I think most women and teenager who practice the abortion is for economic reason.When she have sexuel act she don't think to take a contraceptive and the solution is the abortion or the kiling the foetus.
In Scotland more and more poeples have sexuel rapport under 10 years old and the cousumation of alcool was rising evry day.I heart story of children under 10 years come in school under the power of alcool.
They are many rapport to stipulat the consomation of alcool rising amongst children.
I'm sorry but i can't admit a man can kill an other man .Yes our societies was violent and sauvage when i hear BBC news or other media evry day is the same news: 20 killed in Irak,72,000 dead in China quark,40 killed in Sudan attak,7 killed in Afghanistan, many killed in South-African attaks against foreigners....evry day we have the cultur of the killing and for the embryon we think they are many killed acros the world than we can permit our self to kill an embryon because he can plaid for his self and our conscience was save.
I regreat proufoundly the left poeples who think he was for the liberty of woman when he defent the abortion.This is not true.Dozen of women have psychological problem and turns in prostitution,or use alcool or suicid her self.
needjar@yahoo.fr
73

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 21/05/2008 15:55:55
#67 - oh, and for the record, unlike Mikko (whose views I fully respect) I am quite happy to declare myself a lifelong Atheist. I have always regarded all religions without exception as superstitious claptrap. In addition, not only do I not need a priest, Pope, prophet, L Ron Hubbard, the Scientologists or any other charlatan, I have no personal belief in another force or being, call it God or any other damn thing you like. So now we should understand each other better.
74

Black Beard,

21/05/2008 16:17:57
I see why many of you are twisting this into a religious issue. By misdirection it becomes a debate about religion and not a debate about the most basic right we all possess. The right to life.

I do NOT accept that the issues are the same as they were decades ago when abortion was illegal. Women have many options and protections against pregnancy that simply weren't available then.

Abortion is a tragedy; not a convenience.

4 You mean the fundamental belief that killing babies is wrong? I have no problem saying I hold to the same belief as them when it comes to protecting innocents.
75

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 21/05/2008 16:20:43
#73 Ghengis McCann - I agree with every word!

#74 Houssine, It appears that English is not your first language. No crime in that but your words are sometimes hard to understand so forgive me if I interpret your message wrongly.

I understand that you feel that an embryo has absolute equal rights to every other born human being on the planet. Further more you state that the woman has no right after the point of conception to an abortion. I also understand from your last message that you believe that "dozens" of women have psychological problems and turn to prostitution, alcohol or commit suicide.

Even if this were true, the numbers you quote yourself would be tiny compared to the hundreds of thousands of women around the world who benefit greatly from the right to end a pregnancy. It's a right men take for granted everyday when they just walk away from the consequences of their actions. So I have to say I disagree with your views 100%. Abortion is not a crime, it is most often an act for the best interests of a potential life; therefore in itself a heartbreaking and selfless act of love.

Most organised religions have historically trampled on women's rights and equality - just look at Catholicism (won't allow female priests or a Pope) and Muslims (the Muslim Lite version want them covered in a head scarf and the hardcore mob want them covered in a burkha from head to toe and banned from education and driving). So don't talk about religion's respect for women; it has a zero track record.

I am sorry your views are so medieval and un-enlightened but I hope one day you and your particular ilk will finally grow up and leave the fairies behind.

Sooner or later we all have to grow up: for example homosexuality isn't my cup of tea but I don't go around preaching that they should be abused, “thrown off a mountain”, beheaded or thrown into eternal damnation. What they do is fine with me as long as it isn't forced on me or stuck in my face so-to-speak.

So, re
76

Black Beard,

21/05/2008 16:36:33
78 "therefore in itself a heartbreaking and selfless act of love."

That, my friend, is an absolute load of crapola. I don't care if I were born into the world unloved, poor, blind, no legs and chronic halitosis. I'd still want the chance to live.
77

bruxelloise,

21/05/2008 16:39:56
Thank you Rev.S. Campbell. At last, the voice of rational thought. I support your comments in their entirety and I applaud them.
78

Black Beard,

21/05/2008 16:50:29
65 By that logic people should be able to kill any of their children under the age of three, since they are unable to live independently.
79

Black Beard,

21/05/2008 16:51:16
65 By that logic people should be able to kill any of their children under the age of three, since they are unable to live independently.
80

jamurai,

21/05/2008 16:52:04
I would settle for 20 weeks.
And another thing- all sorts of laws are "imposed" on all sorts of people. Laws are made for the good of society not individuals. So don't tell me that intelligent debate over law making should preclude us form prohibiting people to do what they want whenever they want.think drugs, child abuse, euthanasia, religious intolerance and violence, revenge killings, stonings.....Like it or not the law in democratic societies generally is designed to protect society. Designed by consensus as much as possible and not prescribed by individuals like Ghengis and Mikko. Like I say we all have a right to our own opinions and if an opinion is that society would be better for reducing the term, then the holder of the opinion has the right to esconce it. I agree you guys are free to believe (or not) what you like also. Lets discuss the real issues- Am I being attacked because I have an opinion, or because I have a religion? Either way, is that defensible?
PS Mikko, if you meant "organised religion", then why didn't you say so? How can you so vehemently back your right to "possibly believe in something, maybe..." but ridicule those who are firm in their beliefs? Atheist or agnostic, fine, surely then firm believer is fine too?
81

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 21/05/2008 16:52:24
#77 "Women have many options and protections against pregnancy that simply weren't available then."

No form of contraception is 100% effective, and most are significantly lower. You want to condemn women who don't want to be pregnant, and have taken all reasonable steps to avoid it, to pregnancy. You want to condemn their children to a life unwanted. You want to burden the suffocating planet with even more resource-hungry Western inhabitants. None of these things sound "pro-life" to me. They sound like a recipe for misery and sorrow for all concerned.
82

Houssine,

Paris/Fr 21/05/2008 16:52:36
Yes,i agree myenglish was not my first language.My first language is the french where i was born 43 years old.I think our societies don't have money for give a better education for this reason as ahigien mesure the killing of embryon .
Most women who come to comit the assasination of his embryon was from poor social class.
83

Black Beard,

21/05/2008 16:53:28
65 And besides that you make it sound as though the unborn child is parasitic in nature. It's the natural order of things for women to have babies. If they don't want a baby they should take care not to get pregnant.
84

Smutley,

21/05/2008 16:59:53
Ian W: "As I said I don't hold with abortion just because of social circumstances"

Agreed, and I suspect that is the case currently. However, I'm not sure it's something that can be legislated.

The best way to have that discussion you mention is for people (not you) to desist from the shock tactics.
85

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 21/05/2008 17:03:56
#89 And I suppose if you don't want to get mugged you should never leave the house, too?

This sort of simple-minded stupidity does nothing for your case. Whether you like it or not, medical science has advanced to a point where women don't have to have babies even if they accidentally get pregnant. NO women "use abortion as a contraceptive" - it's a traumatic and horrible situation undertaken as a last resort, and is an infinitely more humane, selfless and decent thing to do than bringing an unwanted child into this overcrowded and poverty-stricken world.

And the unborn child IS "parasitic in nature" - go and look up "parasite" in a dictionary. We just call it by nicer names, but it's no more "natural" than a cancer cell is. Both are organisms which simply want to survive and grow, and do so by leeching from their host.
86

SHELDON THE CRACK DEALER,

21/05/2008 17:03:59
HEY GENGHIS MCCANN,

Yeah how stupid, I'm a bloke, so I actually count even less than an unborn child - what we all knew is now official!

You seem typical of the feminazi-humanist-secular-multi cultural fundamentalist minority who are railroading everyone, who don't actually beleiev in anything except that they don't believe anything and spend their lives reading the Grauniad.

Well done! i don't believe in fairies though, but it seems you have a faith in science even an arts educated new labour ministerette would struggle to match.

Let me guess, you're a lawyer? if you have post school qualifications it'll be in an arts subject, definitely, willing to bet.......
87

SHELDON THE CRACK DEALER,

21/05/2008 17:08:29
#73 what about compelling YOUR selfish desires on soemone who has NO ability whatsoever to resist them? A 24 week old foetus, for example?

Why not allow parenst to euthanise premature babies using your logic? A baby born 24 weeks post LMP may survive but is likley to have lifelong complications, require lots of inconvenient and possibly expensive care, and may not be the right colour size/ shape for the mother who may not want it.

I'm sure there are loads of disabled people, including congenitally handicapped, whom you could survey. Ask them whetehr they would prefer to have been aborted, and once you've got the resuls, share them with us all.

There's a good girl, run along now....
88

SHELDON THE CRACK DEALER,

21/05/2008 17:08:30
#73 what about compelling YOUR selfish desires on soemone who has NO ability whatsoever to resist them? A 24 week old foetus, for example?

Why not allow parenst to euthanise premature babies using your logic? A baby born 24 weeks post LMP may survive but is likley to have lifelong complications, require lots of inconvenient and possibly expensive care, and may not be the right colour size/ shape for the mother who may not want it.

I'm sure there are loads of disabled people, including congenitally handicapped, whom you could survey. Ask them whetehr they would prefer to have been aborted, and once you've got the resuls, share them with us all.

There's a good girl, run along now....
89

Black Beard,

21/05/2008 17:10:42
87 Sterilization is 100% effective and so is abstinence.
90

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 21/05/2008 17:12:47
#88 Houssine, You say that most women who "commit the assassination of their embryo" (I paraphrase) are from poor backgrounds. Not at all true. I am definitely middle class and have many friends who have had abortions. I also know a few upper class people who have done it.

#86 jamurai, Can't agree that it's fine for "firm believers" to go around forcing their views on others. People like Ghengis and I speak for the majority. Last night we got a free vote of representatives who were, in turn, freely elected by the population of this country. They overwhelmingly threw out the "organised religious" dogma - for that is all it is.

Just because one fairytale book or another says "THOU SHALT NOT HAVE AN ABORTION" is no reason for sane rational people - like, thankfully, the majority of our MPs to take a blind bit of notice.
91

Houssine,

Paris.Fr 21/05/2008 17:19:09
When the islam happened in arabic peninsula and poeples become to convert themself from paganism,christianity and judaism to islam one of the first recomendation was "Oh muslim don't kill your children ,Your God Allah will be give him food and richesse"(1).What i can see is today 14 centhury afther this sentence,millions of children was mourning ,killing and abused sexually across the
world.The most source of the abortion act is poverty.

(1)I don't rememor the reference of the surat but they are specialist of islam who can give the exact reference.
92

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 21/05/2008 17:29:10
#99 Ah, I see the issue here. You're not getting any, so you don't want anyone else to either...
93

Black Beard,

21/05/2008 17:29:27
Ah Rev, I'm neither simple-minded nor stupid. I just have an opinion different from your own. I don't believe I'll change your mind. I'm presenting the other side of the argument which is woefully under represented.

Parasites are of a different species than the host. Read an elementary science book if you don't believe me. But that you believe they are explains some of your vehemence.

Over population. Ha! I love that argument. If you really believe that you should ask to be moved to the front of the line and let the rest of us live in peace.

"undertaken as a last resort" Unfortunately, that's just not true.
94

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 21/05/2008 17:34:46
#102 "Oh Muslim don't kill your children" sounds like good advice to me; I don't want to kill children either.

But we are not talking about children here, we are talking about a blob in a woman's womb wholly dependent on her and connected to her. Neither breathing by itself or sentient.

I defer to your knowledge of Islam but I am quite sure that even your own good book written so many centuries ago does not speak of embryos and IVF etc. Such things were not known or understood back then. That is why if religious people must persist in reading fairytales they should at least update them.
95

Houssine,

Paris.Fr 21/05/2008 17:52:42
The probleme in this world it's they are not place for morality all is around money and sexe.
In the last decad we have assisted to the legalization of same sexe mariage in Spain,Ok many amongst you the socialist,the progressist and the naif will be call me this is a good news for human dignity and equalities...
One of my friend say me since they decision was taked by Spain government thoussand migrants from North-Africa was turned tu homosexuality and have rejoined his compagnions in Spain for mariage.This is a form for legal migration of thoussands poeples who life in poverty.I'm sure under few next years the half spain population will be constitued by the same sexe mariage.
Secound,the frankeinstein medecin between human and animal cell will be produce children whit a head of a pig and foot of a horse...
Mikko, the kuran speak about the life and the embryon and the God Allah say "All the life is from your God Allah" and as muslim from us the life was from the God Allah and we disaprouv the Western Frankeinstein medecin.
needjar@yahoo.fr
96

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 21/05/2008 18:12:41
#110 bring them on: surely it can't be the wine bars in Paris. I believe drinking is banned in the Koran.

#109 I repeat that your view on banning same sex marriages, your disapproval of western medicine (though I bet you will use it when you need it) and abortion are all absolutely fine with me as long as you keep them to yourself and stop preaching to the rest of us who regard your faith and all the other faiths as no more or less than fairytales.
97

Houssine,

Paris.Fr 21/05/2008 18:21:17
I speak as a scientific when you take a human cell and conbine it whit an animal cell you have an embryon a half was human and the other was animal,this is an elementary reasonment.
98

Houssine,

Nanterre 21/05/2008 18:24:38
Mikko and other ,i'm in public library and will be closed at 8 oclok.If you have more comment send it to my box at needjar@yahoo.fr and if you want know more about me you can tape my neme in google.com
The transcription of my name in french is Nedjar Hocine.
99

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 21/05/2008 18:28:43
#105

"parasite
noun; an organism which lives in or on another organism and benefits at the other’s expense."

- Oxford English Dictionary

Nothing whatsoever to do with a different species, and a perfectly accurate description of a foetus. Better luck next time.
100

Shionnach,

21/05/2008 19:18:21
Getting back to the abortion issue, I don't think the time should be reduced, it should be extended from the current 24 weeks to at least 18 years, and the decision to abort should be granted to near neighbours or anyone on the same housing scheme!!
101

John Blackley,

Florida 21/05/2008 19:33:49
Okay, here's a piece of old-fogeyism for you.

I seem to remember that, when abortion was illegal, there were many less 'unwanted' pregnancies and single-woman pregnancies than there are today. The implication I draw is that, faced with the very strong threat of having to deliver and raise the child, people were more prudent in their sexual affairs.

Of course, the world isn't mine any more - time has moved on. The advent of the contraception pill did much to loosen the girls' stays and the relaxation of society's disapproval of what it saw as 'immoral' shucked them off completely.

Add to all that the current affair where yooung single mothers get preferential treatment on many councils' housing lists and we've removed almost all constraints on unprotected sex outside of a stable relationship.

Hence, women need abortion to be freely available and no argument - be it on behalf of the foetus or about some mystical belief - will win the day against their need.

A bit of a circular argument, I'll admit. However, it brings me to the conclusion that our society continues to lose what used to be called 'moral restraint' and will be none the better for it.
102

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 21/05/2008 20:04:04
#120 John Blackley

If you ban abortion you end up with thousands of unwanted kids and do you know where they end up?

In state care in places like our island of Jersey's care home where just tonight they are finding many bones and teeth of burned and buried children who were sexually abused before they died. If that is what you want - NOT IN MY NAME.
103

Dr Randy Hornimann, back street abortionist,

Sharpening up the coat hanger 21/05/2008 20:23:16
Hey MIKKO #123 - you really are a boring, self righteous old Prole aren't you?

Are you an SMP by any chance? Do you own a tanning parlour near Ibrox stadium?

I had reservations about abortion, especially as late as 24 weeks, but after reading MIKKO'S posts I'm now convinced it would be a good thing.
104

Dr Randy Hornimann, back street abortionist,

21/05/2008 20:25:49
Hey MIKKO why don't you offer your services as a counsellor to women considering abortion?

105

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 21/05/2008 20:30:11
#125 and 126
Ouch, I hit hard didn't I?

When someone points out to anti-abortionists what actually happens to many unwanted children they go all wobbly. I rest my case.

106

Dr Randy Hornimann, back street abortionist,

21/05/2008 20:37:35
By the way MIKKO - around 48% of people think the abortion limit should be cut.

But what do they know? They're probably believers in fairytales.

Better to listen to the "thankfully sane and rational" MPs who are elected to represent their views.

Welcome to Britain - welcome to the only country in Western Europe which allows abortion after 18 weeks.

It's a total disgrace that we can't even have a debate about this because questioning womens' rights is completely taboo.

It's a total disgrace that any attempt to debate this results in insults about religious beliefs from the womens' rights lobby and their sympathisers, as if no non-religious person could have reservations about the huge double standard in the way a 24 week post-LMP premature "baby" and an unwanted 24 week post-LMP "foetus" are treated and the legal status they are afforded.

If a woman gets pregnant she carries the child - now get over it! Just because the man is physically free to leave her in the lurch does not mean we should afford the woman the right to kill her child with him. Where does this stop?
107

Dr Randy Hornimann, back street abortionist,

21/05/2008 20:52:18
#128 MIKKO - why don't you go and speak to some "unwanted children" and find out how many wish they had been aborted? I'd take you more seriously then.

A woman does not need 6 months to decide if she wants a baby or not, and if her feckless man friend leaves her after 5 months and 10 days that's just too bad - there are government agencies who will help her gun him down and ensure he does his bit, not to mention Jeremy Kyle, and she'll probably get a nice cooncil hoose too.

If you want evidence of this then consider that a comparatively tiny proportion of abortions are carried out late - 1.5% at the 20 - 24 week stage. It's not as if resetting the limit would deliver thousands of kids into the filthy hands of a padeo ring now, is it MIKKO?

It's disgusting - a total sympton of our throwaway culture and the demands of womans' libbers that we level the perceived inequalities between them and men using science. And who pays? Obviously, in a literal sense, the taxpayer (and I personally would rather fund a few hundred extra mouths on benefits than pay for this), but the "people" who really pay are those without the voice - the aborted babies.

I guess they can't make a noise, so as usual we'll just cave in to those who make the loudest noise - in this case the minority of lefty libbers and pals, and suppress any questioning of their behaviour with jibes about religious conviction, eh?

I suppose if you think aborting a 24 week old foetus/baby/human being is fair then this kind of thing is reasonable too....
108

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 21/05/2008 21:24:03
#132 Dr Randy,

Again the religious zealots come out with "all forgiving" bile. You ask me why I don't go and talk to "unwanted" children. For your information I have. A close relative (I can't give any details of where or when for obvious reasons) was in charge of many deformed children in healthcare. Some of these poor kids were in a seriously bad way. We are not talking in a wheelchair, we are talking born with a brain the size of a peanut. Dribbling and drooling, they couldn't see, speak or hear and constantly wetted themselves and messed their nappies.

Why were they born? Because their parents were anti-abortion. I would invite people like you to go and talk to them about whether they would have rather never been born but I can't because obviously they couldn't communicate with you anyway.

I am truly sorry for you religious fools and the "I'm not religious but I know best anyway types" because you just don't know anything about anything. You are all just bigots who care nothing about the human condition. You are just stupid fairytale followers who unconditionally accept “the word of your particular God”. The lot you should rot in your own hell if their is any justice.
109

Black Beard,

21/05/2008 21:28:04
115 You're definition is incomplete at best. I don't have a subscription to OED, but try looking up parasitism which was the context you were using.


Wikipedia:

Parasitism is a type of symbiotic relationship between organisms of different species in which one, the parasite, benefits from a prolonged, close association with the other, the host, which is harmed.

Miriam Webster Online:
2: an intimate association between organisms of two or more kinds; especially : one in which a parasite obtains benefits from a host which it usually injures.

In parasitism more than one species is involved.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=active&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&defl=en&q=define:parasitism&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title
110

Em,

21/05/2008 21:53:29
#56 Rev

I would like to correct some of the assumptions you made earlier.
I did not say I am eating more food, actually quite the opposite, I did say I have a desire to eat healthier foods which is not a bad thing, neither have I had a single case of morning sickness nor do I have piles thank you very much.

While you are so eager to point out the minor effects that may occur during pregnancy in your attempts to portray tha baby as a parasite that is harmful to the mother I would also like to point out the bennefits that can come from having children, studies have revealed that Women who have never had children are more likely to develop ovarian cancer than women who have had children. In fact, the more children a woman has had, the less likely she is to develop ovarian cancer.
Also breasfeeding has been shown to have several bennefits, it decreases the risk of developing breast cancer in later life and if done for around 1 year it can half a womans chances of developing rheumatoid arthritis.

All this is not surprising as the body is being used in the way it is intended to and of course the result is a healthier, better functioning body......

111

Em,

21/05/2008 21:53:47
contd...

On the other hand, studies have revealed that women who have had abortions are at greater risk of developing breast cancer, having fertility problems and an increased risk that future pregnancies will be ectopic, not to mention the mental health problems some women suffer having had an abortion, this however is swept under the carpet in an attempt to portray abortion as safe.

And you claim that a baby growing in the womb is a parasite that causes harm to the mother, I suggest you stop being taken in by the propaganda and start learning the facts.

112

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 21/05/2008 22:22:01
Em @#137, Did you see the latest in the health page,?

Scotsman update about 4/5 hours ago.
113

Dr Randy Hornimann, back street abortionist,

21/05/2008 22:26:20
Hey MIKKO, are you building a cellar by any chance? Are you soundproofing it? Did you come under the influence of someone caled Adolf as a youth?
114

Dr Randy Hornimann, back street abortionist,

21/05/2008 22:35:24
MAN U the winners.

Hey MIKKO, how about you tell us all why, using your logic, we shouldn't euthanase underprivileged kids or disabled people?

Science says they're probably having a miserable life, and they cause a load of crime.

HOw about we have retrospective abortion for unwanted kids? You can be euthanased on the state if you're disabled or your life is kind of miserable?
115

Em,

21/05/2008 22:55:54
#138 Charles Linskaill

Two out of three people, including three out of four women, and two out of three doctors, have signalled their support for a lowering of the 24-week upper limit.
The results of the vote just goes to highlight that the majority of MP's refuse to represent the wishes of those who elected them.
apparently this is democracy.

116

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 21/05/2008 23:23:10
142 Em,

Well what can I say, it seems you know the truth like I.

As I said they should of shown a video clip of a Baby in the Womb at 24weeks to see what they were doing with their vote.

Your quote "apparently this is democracy", well that's what they call it, "apparently barbaric" is what I call it!

Fair enough 40years ago people did not have the technology's to see, 'Baby-in-the-Womb'

But today 'pic-up' any 'pregnancy mag' and you will see perfectly well a formed Baby through all the stages of the foetus development.

Maybe some people should look and think before they vote and/or speak about aborting a Baby at this stage.

A life that is dependent on 'Mummy-to-be' and for all we know, 'Trusts' 'Mummy-to-be' and expects 'Mummy-to-be'
To feel Safe, Wanted, and Loved,

Is then, only to be pulled apart, 'Limb by Limb'.
117

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 21/05/2008 23:33:50
http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/AbortionPictures/45.html
118

Simon Icke,

AYLESBURY UK 08/07/2008 20:58:24
May I be allowed the following observations on two recent matters before Parliament? Firstly, on human/animal hybrid experimentation, there is not a shred of evidence that such experiments will help one single person suffering from a degenerative disease. It seems the end by which they justify the means rests on a massive ' if ' !
Surely this is a false, emotive reason to experiment with nature and justify playing God. It is rather arrogant that so many naive politicians cry ' just think of the millions it might help' when, in truth, it is likely to help no one. But the truth doesn't sound so good or win popularity.
Secondly, the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill is a measure of how far our nation has fallen-- the sanctity of human life no longer has much value with many ' trendy liberal minded MPs'. Listening to some of them speak in the House of Commons at the second reading of the Abortion debate was truly sickening.
As a nation we are only as civilised as our treatment of the most vulnerable amongst us. No one is more vulnerable and less valued in our society than the unborn human child. Have we become so selfish, so callous that we just don't care anymore? Over 97% of the 200,000 plus abortions carried out every year in the UK is for social reasons only. How very sad.
It's about time the public were made aware of the reality of what happens in our abortion clinics every day, rather than continuing the to believe the myths and misinformation fed to them by pro-abortion lobbyists.
They often have a vested interest in the continuing success of this vile industry, which spends hundreds of thousands of pounds lobbying MPs to protect its interests------all under the guise of women's rights, which it seems no MP dares to question (Well it's not PC is it?).
Next time you meet a child from a poor neighbourhood, a physically or mentally disabled person, someone who has had corrective surgery for a cleft palate or club foot, or even a
119

Simon Icke,

AYLESBURY UK 08/07/2008 21:00:41
comment continued....

Next time you meet a child from a poor neighbourhood, a physically or mentally disabled person, someone who has had corrective surgery for a cleft palate or club foot, or even a woman from an ethnic minority where males are more valued than females ---- ask them a simple question. Are you glad to be alive or do you wish your mother had exercised her right to choose to abort you?

 

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