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Boy banned from school's festive party for having no belief in God

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Published Date: 22 December 2007
A NINE-YEAR-OLD boy was banned from his school Christmas party because he does not believe in God.
Douglas Stewart was asked to stay at home while his classmates were treated to jelly and ice-cream, followed by a visit from Santa and presents.

Douglas's mother, Dawn Riddell, was informed that he was unwelcome at the celebration because she had
withdrawn him from religious education classes at Cluny Primary School, in Buckie, Banffshire, earlier in the school term.

Ms Riddell, 38, said the headteacher, Ian Davidson,had told her that as the youngster had no interest in religion, he could not celebrate the birth of Christ.

She said yesterday: "It doesn't make any sense to me.

"I've helped out at the Christmas party before and it's got absolutely nothing to do with Jesus. It's all about the kids getting excited about Santa and enjoying themselves.

"Douglas was heartbroken that he couldn't go. It was cruel. There was no reason for him to be excluded."

Ms Riddell explained that her family has no religious beliefs and she decided to withdraw her children from religious and moral education classes when they began to study Bible stories earlier this year.

She wrote to the school asking for the boys to be exempt from the lessons, but was contacted by Mr Davidson and warned that the children could miss out on fun activities.

On the day of the end-of-term party, Ms Riddell was again contacted by the headteacher to say that Douglas could not attend.

She said: "Douglas had come home to get changed for the party. No-one had said anything to him, so as far as he knew he was going.

"He was really upset when I told him he couldn't go back to school. He just lay on the rug and cried. It was such a shame, but there was nothing I could do."

With her other son Callum, 11, due to attend another class party, Ms Riddell contacted Moray Council's education department to find out about its policy on school festive parties.

She said: "I spoke to someone at the education department who told me that Christmas parties are non-religious.

"He said they're a chance for the pupils and staff to mark the end of a year of hard work, and that he would talk to the school."

After the council's intervention, the school relented and Mr Davidson called Ms Riddell to apologise for the "misunderstanding." Callum was allowed to attend his class party a few days later and was given a gift that had been set aside for his brother.

Douglas said he had been left confused by his exclusion.

He said: "People put up Christmas trees at Christmas. They're not religious, so why would a party be religious?"

His mother added: "If it had been something like a nativity play, then I could understand. My children don't take part in anything like that, or go to church services.

"But Christmas parties are totally different. They're not all about religion or Jesus."

Maureen Lane, of the Professional Teachers' Association, said: "This sounds pretty awful. Schools should try and be as inclusive as possible."

A spokesman for Moray Council said the problem had been settled. He said: "The matter has now been resolved between the school and the mother, to their satisfaction. Mr Davidson called the family to apologise."

MISTLETOE MEDDLERS

A LOCAL council has banned staff from kissing under the mistletoe, it emerged yesterday.

Hyndburn Council bosses in Lancashire sent a memo telling staff not to be "misled by mistletoe" over the festive season and warning against "inappropriate party behaviour"

including suggestive language, unwanted jokes and bodily contact.

The memo, also said "Secret Santa" gifts should be carefully chosen so as not to cause offence and risqué items should be avoided.

The council's Tory leader, Peter Britcliffe, said: "If I had been consulted about this I would just have said respect others and apply common sense."



Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 21 December 2007 10:14 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Teaching
 
1

,

22/12/2007 00:36:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
2

Heilan laddie,

Perth, WA 22/12/2007 01:14:05
#1. I dont think you read the article properly, she said childrens Christmas party had nothing to do with Jesus which I think she is quite correct in that assumtion.]
I dont recall as a child any religious theme to a Christmas party, it was all about Santa and presents.
I think they should teach more the true meaning of Christmas and for authorities to get their act together.
It was not that long ago when they banned Christmas decorations and songs from childrens hospitals just incase they offended non-Christians. Surely this is an offence to Atheists?
3

Navvy,

22/12/2007 02:03:45
#2 - engage brain
Santa = Saint Claus - a Christian Saint
Christmas = Christ mass
4

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 22/12/2007 02:31:00
'Goodness-Sake' its 'MENTAL' Absolutely 'MENTAL'!!!
Did he 'Actually', 'shout-out', 'I Don't Believe in Jesus', or 'God'

I think NOT!...and how old is he?

Yes 'Just-a-Child'

Santa = Children's thoughts at Christmas, NOT, even %? for, Jesus in a manger!

But, bring in the Christmas Story about Jesus, into any Child's mind and they, 'WILL' , remember and have their own thoughts about our religion, about Christmas
I can see the Parents view!
I can see the Schools view!
But what about the Child?
Every Party was to Blame for this Child's Injustice!
5

Scullion,

Canada 22/12/2007 03:13:22
This is the reason the Yanks, through the wisdom of their founding fathers (save for the 2nd Amendment), get rid of this religious nonsense from public (in North America this means state run) schools.
Give the lad some cake and ice-cream. Crackpots.
6

scotsdoc,

NANAIMO BC CANADA 22/12/2007 05:16:50

It this day and age I can hardly believe that any right minded Scot can harbour such antedeluvian views!

My mind casts up an image of a toffee nosed, anally retentive, some what prune faced school master, out of the 'Charles Dicken's era.

Are there still such UNCO-GUID individuals surviving in Scotland?? I expect the Good Lord has reserved an especialy hot seat in the nether regions for those and such as those.
7

Jock's Away,

Africa 22/12/2007 06:15:34
Well done Mr Davidson another productive lesson on intolerance, you may have another convert. What the pupils believe or don't believe is NONE of your business. CCTV's for the mind are not yet sanctioned in Britain. Intolerance is the greatest cancer of all.
"You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars, Whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Be at peace with God What ever you conceive him to be." (a tomb stone 1692)
This is a valuable today as is was when penned. Merry Christmas young Douglas, you to Mr Davidson a postive future to you both.
8

donald,

glasgow 22/12/2007 06:31:21
Tis the season to be jolly ...

Will Barlinnie bar Xmas dinner for atheists, or just give plum pudding to its many Old Firm fans?
9

Montague Q X Burton,

22/12/2007 06:52:12
How very UnChristian of the headmaster.
10

Her Majesty, Queen Sandra,

22/12/2007 06:58:08
Had the boy been welcomed at the party, this quiet act alone may have been an example to him of what Jesus is really all about.
11

tomi,

22/12/2007 07:05:50
What is "Christmas"?

Is it a celebration of the Incarnation of the second person of the Trinity, the Redeemer, The Son of God, etc?

Or....

Is it an excuse for a party: Santa Claus and presents and all that?

If the former, then then they were quite right to exclude this atheist's athieistic child from this religious celebration.

If the latter, why shouldn't the boy attend?

12

an interested party,

22/12/2007 07:35:41
no 9 it is entirely a Christian thing to do. having been done by Christian.

it often amazes me how the religious claim all the good stuff as 'Christian' and all the bad stuff as as 'unchristian' (or islamic and unislamic, tho i dont here much buda and unbuda but hey)

if it is perpetrated in the name of christ, which this case seems to inextricably be then it is a christian thing to have done.

mad as a bunch of grapes that some religious nut can use his position of power to foster his own beliefs on a naive young child

some how i am not surprised as this has always been a method of religious education
13

Selgovae,

Scottish Borders 22/12/2007 07:37:20
When in need of charity, mercy and a friendly face, I find it best to seek out atheists. They have better parties too.
14

Ricardo,

methil 22/12/2007 07:46:05
Ha!!! .. A firey furnace awaits those who do not believe in God.. and Good Christian Values..... Tie him to a stake.
15

fife runner,

22/12/2007 07:46:31
perhaps we are not being told the whole story. no one is was interviewed from the school. If the party was part of the class which he was withdrawn from then perhaps it was a bit daft for his mum to want him back in again for one day. Bit hypocritical.
16

SimonW,

Edinburgh 22/12/2007 07:46:45
Get am education people. christmas has nothing to do with Christ and the same applies to Easter. They are the Christian hijacking of the old festivals of Yule and Oestre respectively. The church made up stories to coincide with these mid-winter and springtime festivals. Stop being so naive. Seasons Greetings
17

Ricardo,

methil 22/12/2007 08:03:59
Hehh!! I thought we were celebrating ... Santa Claus/
18

Samcafe,

Glasgow 22/12/2007 08:05:05
Exactly post 15, but actually that's ridiculous, whoever heard of a newspaper only reporting one side of the story for sensationalism
19

Edgar,

22/12/2007 08:17:21
#16 you see this type of comment as if its some big news. early christians used buildings for their meetings that were public buildings(basilica),built temples on the sight of pagan temples, used the common calendar they found to celebrate their own feasts. big deal.
20

A McBay,

22/12/2007 08:20:36
According to the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland, Christmas is not at all about the birth of Jesus, partly because it is a pagan celebration in ogigin.

The church web site says Christians should not sing the carol about Jesus being born on Christmas day, and plastic dolls representing Jesus in nativity plays is "nothing short of blasphemous".

According to these devout Christians, any Christian celebrating Christmas is breaking two Commandments - bearing false witness regarding the birth (no-one knows the actual date, so people shouldn't make one up and pretend it is Jesus birthday) and the Second Commandment about graven images (the plastic doll problem).

So, if devout Christians think this, it is indeed correct to say that Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus.

Oh, the church says Christians mustn't do the Santa thing either.
21

Harris tweed and levi's 501,

Edinburgh 22/12/2007 08:21:34
Let me see if I have understood this.

A primary school headmaster, Ian Davidson, disagrees with the personal religious beliefs of one of his charge’s parents.
He then believes it is appropriate to punish the child because he disagrees with the parents.

I am surely not alone in questioning this individual’s suitability to be a teacher, never mind a head teacher?

What other beliefs, superstitions and rituals could be lurking within the tortured mind which sees any justification of this course of action?

So, come on here Mr Davidson, and explain why punishing this child for something entirely outwith his control or influence, is aiding the education and development of the child.

I accuse you of “being not fit for purpose”, and call upon you to resign forthwith.
22

john z,

edinburgh 22/12/2007 08:23:55
Oh my god!!

The god squad really do have style. Stopping a nine year old attending the school christmas party.

I and many other people are not religious, but I still celebrate christmas. It may have some of its origins in christianity, but nowadays to most people it has nothing to do with religion. Christmas trees for example were a pagan symbol. I mean think about it, santa coming down the chimney, with a red suit and big beard, and rudolph...It's got nothing to do with religion.

Go ahead jesus people celebrate christmas as a religious thing, but don't forget that to most people, christmas is a completely non religious affair. You might not like it, but that's reality.
23

Ricardo,

methil 22/12/2007 08:53:52
If the bairn had been a Pakistani.... The Heedies feet widnie touch the flare as he was being expelled from his school.
24

Boy Wonder,

22/12/2007 09:05:50
According to my youngest nephew, Christmas is the day we "celebrate Santa's birthday and what's religion then?"
25

calum,

Banchory 22/12/2007 09:09:49
Fa wid be a dominie? Can't you just picture Ms Riddell? Strange that she should reject one imagined character on behalf of her kids and yet allow her kids to get excited about another one? Strange indeed.
26

Andyfromedinburgh,

Edinburgh 22/12/2007 09:15:57
..... religous bigotry . He is 9!
27

Roy,

Erskine 22/12/2007 09:22:08
This small-minded man shouldn't be in charge of a school.
28

Unimpressed one,

22/12/2007 09:42:10
Religion - don't you just love it! ALL crap.
29

Anton,

Porto Sant'Elpidio 22/12/2007 10:10:22
I agree that the headteacher might be considered an a$$hole, but the kid's mother can't really have it both ways(withdrawing her child from ALL religion-related activities BUT having him attend a specific one) and it cannot be argued that Christmas is not a Christian celebration, no matter wether one celebrates the traditionally set date for Christ's birth or Santa Claus, which IS based on a Christian Saint -Saint Nicholas- figure. If you don't like it, then use another name of your choice to indicate the 25th of December, period.
BTW, #16,Easter is not a kidnapping of Oestre.. Anglophones may use a similar word, but the origin of the celebration is from the Hebrew rite in remembrance of Moses leading the flee from Egypt... Pesach --> Passover
And this day shall become a memorial for you, and you shall observe it as a festival for the L-RD, for your generations, as an eternal decree shall you observe it. For seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, but on the first day you shall remove the leaven from your homes ... you shall guard the unleavened bread, because on this very day I will take you out of the land of Egypt; you shall observe this day for your generations as an eternal decree. - Exodus 12:14-17
http://www.jewfaq.org/holidaya.htm
which in Christianity became the leading fact of Salvation and the leading Holy Day of resurrection. You can of course not believe the whole christian stuff, but inform yourself better on what you are talking about :-)
30

McMicrogal,

22/12/2007 10:24:42
If this mum had a brown face and wore a headscarf there would be all h£ll to pay for this ludicrous decision.

The Dominie is nowt but a bully!
31

Pocket Dictionary,

22/12/2007 10:34:12
What we need here is a sanity claus (boom, boom).

25th December has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus Christ, as previously stated it was a hi-jacked Roman festival, to keep Christiana away from paganism (turned full circle now). There's no way shepherds would be tending their flocks on a Judean hillside in the middle of winter.

Easter is a different kettle of fish. As Jesus was executed during Jewish Passover time, that is probably more accurate. In Christian theology I would have thought the Resurrection was more fundamental to celebrate than any guess at when Jesus was born.
32

Calum Crubag,

22/12/2007 10:34:25
Just goes to prove that 'political correctness' depends on the politics you hold. Right-wing Christians are just as liable to be 'PC' as anyone else.

Christmas has indeed been hijacked by Christians. A Christian scholar (himself a practising Christian) told me that Jesus' real birthday was probably in March. The current celebrations are indeed pagan in origin. The date is conveniently close to auld midwinter celebrations, the Xmas Tree, the Yule log and mistletoe are all pagan.

Let's have a winter festival but let's also take religion out of public life. Religious observance (unlike education) has no place in schools. WE should learn about the usually illogical beleifs of others and ourselves, fairies included, but it should not be taught at 'the truth'.
33

Calum Crubag,

22/12/2007 10:36:03
If religion is personal, then lets leave it for home and church. Keep it out of schools.
34

Toast,

22/12/2007 10:37:53
if he had stopped a muslim or hindu boy attending the party he would have been charged,lucky to still have a job,isn't it great an orgy of food,drink and obsene spending to celebrate a random date picked as the birthday of jesus [best fairy story ever written]what a load of crap.
35

kamiddler,

Glasgow 22/12/2007 11:03:41
Both his mother and headteacher need a boot in the ass, her for keeping him from harmless classes and him for being an idiot.
36

Fraser Jambo,

Stirling 22/12/2007 11:04:20
You know what, I think this headteacher was right, and he was making a very valid point. There are Muslim, Sikh and Hindu kids all over Scotland who take part in school assemblies which are broadly Christian, they do RME in class and they never complain. But we have the hypocrites who make silly political points by taking their children out of lessons about Christianity rather than giving their children the chance to learn and decide for themselves, then they come along and when it's time to celebrate something like Christmas, suddenly it's OK. What's the betting that this woman is giving her kids presents on Christmas Day, too? Total two-faced nonsense on her part.

I wonder, does this woman also go out on the first day of Hanukkah and demand her kids get to go to parties and receive 8 days' worth of gifts? At the end of Ramadan, does she go with her children and gatecrash festivities at the local mosque? How about at Diwali?

To me, she's just picking and choosing what bits of religion she wants to pay attention to. She can't have it both ways, and this headie was spot on. If he can go to the Christmas Party - whether it makes mention of Jesus or not - then he can also do the assemblies and the RME classes.
37

calum,

Banchory 22/12/2007 11:13:10
My point about this woman is that she denies her children to believe in God, no doubt because its an imagined superforce and, acoording to some, the creator of everything. Yet the same woman is happy for her son to believe in an image which flies about the skey in a sleigh pulled by reindeer and who climbs down you lum to deliver presents!! Without taking sides on any religious, PC or school issue, she is clearly some muddled up mother.
38

McGinty,

Aberdeen 22/12/2007 11:14:39
Oh well, more tabloid rabble rousing by the Scotsman and no doubt every other **** stirrer will comment well into the day on the evils of atheism and the evils of religion on what is a non-story, with a resultant ping pong and ding dong - he didn't go to his R.E. classes so he missed out on a treat and the problem's been cleared up anyway. We have enough division between religious groups in Scotland and the U.K and religion and atheism (not to mention people like Trump coming in with his size 14's to throw his weight around) without spin like this trying to stir it up.
Merry Christmas to all who live and let live and promote peace and goodwill and to all smart Alec stirrers and vitriol merchants, Merry Christmas to you as well.
39

Geoff,

sa 22/12/2007 11:17:36
Would they have banned Nick clegg?
40

calum,

Banchory 22/12/2007 11:23:12
#41 - What has this to do with race? It is a religious issue.
41

Publius,

London (working through Christmas but back in Scot 22/12/2007 11:23:18
'Suffer the little children to come unto me'. This laddie is certainly suffering from an arrogant mother who isolates him from his classmates for part of the school day and from part of Scotland's tradition. And he is sufffering from a stupid head who has compounded the offence.
P.S. Isn't this a story from Alex Salmond's home patch? What does he have to say about it?
P.P.S. Of course Christmas is a Christian overlay on a pagan festival. But it's still a national festival. My Jewish colleagues have all sent me Christmas cards.
42

Publius,

London 22/12/2007 11:25:44
P.P.P.S. The Scotsman computer has cut off the second line of my address. It should read 'London (working through Christmas but back in Scotland for a long New Year)
43

Helen,

22/12/2007 11:31:31
Well said Fraser 37#
Christmas is about celebrating the birth of Jesus. Parties really have nothing to do with it, but as with any celebration a party might be included. One would hope that we wouldn't attend a birthday party if we didn't like the person whose birthday we were celebrating. In the same way, there's no point in a child attending a Christmas party if he doesn't believe in God. Having said that, I wonder if his parents have allowed him to hear the Gospel. By withdrawing him from RE lessons she is expressing bigotry because if he had attended the lessons and made up his own mind, then it would have been his own decision as to whether he wished to attend a party for someone he currently believes doesn't exist. He really doesn't have a chance!!
44

Publius,

London 22/12/2007 11:55:37
#37 Fraser Jambo; #46 Helen

What pious idiots you are. It is no wonder that we Scots have reputation for bigotry and intolerance. No nine year old should ever be publicly humiliated by his headteacher. If you had any Christian charity you wouldn't defend the head.
Where religion is concerned we have something to learn from the English. The Archbishop of Canterbury freely talks of the flaws in the Christmas story on radio. The Queen, head of the Chruch of England, regarded the late Cardinal Hume as a personal friend - my cardinal she called him - and he was a frequent guest at the palace.
I am agnostic but I thought true Christians practised tolerance, humanity and brotherly love. Fraser, Helen it is time you practised them too.

45

,

22/12/2007 12:07:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
46

Badgerczars,

working over Christmas ..............hah bumhug! 22/12/2007 12:07:54
as todays Christmas celebrations have almost no connection with Christ, I am of the opinion that the headmaster is quite wrong, and should be subject to an enquiry by the Educational authority. Christmas today consists of
Christmas trees...............pagan symbol
yule logs..................... pagan symbol
25th december birth date....... hijacked date to ofset pagan ceremonies celebrating the shortest day
Present buying /giving.......... celebration of excesses and worship of Mammon, contrary to Christian beliefs
Christmas dinner.............. excercising the sin of gluttony
Santa Claus............. probably a made up saint (and i know about most of the supposed origins, so no diatribes please)
Santas red suit............... advertising campaign by Coca-Cola

47

,

22/12/2007 12:11:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
48

Harris tweed and levi's 501,

Edinburgh 22/12/2007 12:33:55
#46

Unadulterated drivel.

What makes you think that all children who attend religious indoctrination lessons actually believe in the existence of a super natural being, anymore more than they believe that Bart Simpson or Harry Potter actually exist?

I do not agree with the stance of the mother excluding her child from any part of the learning process.
However, I take great exception to the attitude of the headmaster who appears to be exhibiting his own sadistic tendencies by punishing a child for what he perceives to be the shortcomings of the child’s parents.

I will ask once again, how does this headmaster justify his social exclusion aid the education and development of the child concerned?

To date, no-one has been able to answer this question.

If this headmaster is not able to nurture and develop the minds of all the primary school children within his charge, then why is he in this position?
49

,

22/12/2007 12:46:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
50

Ruggles,

Evansville, IN USA 22/12/2007 13:05:00
I believe the headmaster was hasty in excluding the young boy from the Christmas Party. His actions send the wrong message. Even though the party was essentially non-religious, and even though the lad has no Christian upbringing at home, he will associate the season with rejection and disappointment. I don't believe this is what the Lord meant when He said, "Suffer the little children to come unto Me." Such actions also create more hostility on the part of the parents. Who knows what will happen to them in years to come? Perhaps the Lord has not called them yet. Do we want to stand in His way?
51

Pilrig,

Livingston 22/12/2007 13:39:18
What an auld soupuss the heidie is.
Bah humbug/soor plooms !

Anyway, in the immortal words of Sir Noddy Holder;
"IT'S CHRISTMAS !!!!!" (or it will be in 3 days time)

Merry Christmas, y'all ! And hope you enjoyed the winter soltice earlier today.
52

Danny Carlton,

USA 22/12/2007 15:04:01
#5 Actually our Founding Fathers didn't "get rid of religious nonsense" they attempted to prevent the Federal government from establishing a national church. The "getting rid of religious nonsense" is something that has been done in the latter part of last century, in complete disregard for the Founding Fathers' ideas and thoughts, well recorded in their writings.

There are really two Christmases, the real one, celebrating Jesus' birth, and the secularized one, with Santa Claus, Christmas tree, etc. The headmaster is dead wrong in equating the two, and the boy should have been allowed to attend. But just as the headmaster was being closed minded and vindictive, so are those who attempt to claim that all Christians think and behave the same way as the headmaster has behaved.

As for Christians "stealing" Christmas, it's true the Roman Catholic church in an attempt to "market" Catholicism had a bad habit of incorporating many pagan observances into their own traditions, however, the popularity of the holiday is due to it's observance by Christians, not pagans, so it's not really fair to say Christians stole something (winter soltice celebration) that would have vanished into obscurity had they ignored it.

And also, let me add, I just love how the Scottishness of your speaking comes out in the way ya'll write (here in the comments) Most Americans love listening to a Scottish accent.
53

Miss Jean Brodie,

22/12/2007 15:18:43
Santa an anagram = Satan
54

Pilrig,

Livingston 22/12/2007 15:57:21
65 - he's an idiot.

To paraphrase the immortal words of Morrisey;

"Belligerent ghouls run Scottish schools,
spineless swine, cemented minds."
55

The Pict.,

Canada 22/12/2007 16:12:14
# 3 Engage your brain?

1) Christmas = fairytale Jewish story.
2) Santa Claus = concocted from the so-called three 'wisemen' who supposedly brought gifts to the unmarried Jewish mother.
3) The barring of the child = typical Protestant Jewish or Catholic Jewish religous response to anyone who has the BRAINS to think for themselves.
Slainte'
56

Chaya,

Israel 22/12/2007 17:02:07
Ridiculous!! I don't understand this. Even a non-believing Jew wouldn't be barred from a Passover seder! This will only serve to reinforce ant-religious feelings in the child.
57

Ealasaid N,

22/12/2007 17:11:20
To be honest this woman sounds to me like the growing band who wants everything her own way. She chose to withdraw her children from anything religious - Christmas is about Christ - hence the word Christ mas -that should have been a clue for her.

We make decisions in life and then we have to stand by them we cant say I dont want the bits I dont like but I demand the other bits like free grub and presents.

Did no one tell this woman that religious education is not a contagious disease and that only by knowing can you make an informed decision?
58

cockatiel,

australi 22/12/2007 17:24:44
#72 having read a few off the comments i agree with you. how was this mother brought up /bid she get pressents from santa at xmas when she was young ?what indoctrined her brain/religious or other to tell her kids different she must have had a childhood? let her kids have one to. or will we have a nation of bigots telling schools what to do/which is happening even as i type this??
59

kiesue,

USA 22/12/2007 17:25:20
#63 is correct about our Founding Fathers' attempt to prevent an established religion in this country. That is why this country came to be in the first place, but that fact has been erased by the secularists here and around the world. Re:the topic at hand. The headmaster had every right to exclude the child from attending the Christmas party. The mother cannot have it both ways. If she does not want her child to participate in the religious study, that is HER right, but why then should he be allowed to participate in the celebration? Be thankful that you still have religious rights in your country! Ours are all but gone here in the USA. Here, an athiest could have stopped the celebration itself, and the entire group of children would have been disappointed!
60

Judith M.,

Brainerd, USA 22/12/2007 17:55:25
Atheists who celebrate Christmas are daft. It is a Christian holiday (Holiday=Holy Day). It would make more sense for them to celebrate "Festivus."

Still, I excluding an atheist from a Christmas party if they want to attend and don't intend to attack the Christian faith seems counterproductive from an evangelization standpoint.

P.S. - St. Nicholas was a real person, (a Bishop, no less) not a spin-off of the Magi. Although there were many legends that grew up around him that have no basis in reality, he was known to be a very generous soul.
61

GJ Tryon,

Vancouver Canada 22/12/2007 18:12:21
"It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones." Luke17:2
62

porcadian,

Inangst 22/12/2007 18:19:49
"This world will never know peace 'til the last politician has been strangled by the guts of the last priest."
(Voltaire)
63

The Pict.,

Canada 22/12/2007 18:29:51
# 75 Judith. Do you know what an athiest is?? As your bible was written by Jews for Jews in order to be an athiest you would have to have been Jewish. It is impossible for anyone other than those to be an athiest. Perhaps you evangelistics should learn something about the fables of the world in general and in particular this one about Yaweh before misleading people about the Jewish god you choose to 'worship' and his 'son' who is also non-existant.
64

The Pict.,

Canada 22/12/2007 18:43:37
# 63 Danny. You should be aware that we Scots had our own "God" Bel before your Jewish GOD Yaweh came along. This is similar to a great number of countries in the world until the good Christians introduced, by force, burning and torturing people to 'convert' them to your fable. Now you are more sophisticated and use bombs, tanks & etc.......to win the hearts and souls of the world.
Bel existed in the same way as your Jewish god(s) exist. THEY DON'T.
65

Harris tweed and levi's 501,

Edinburgh 22/12/2007 19:06:54
There is something fundamentally wrong with our education system when balloons like this headmaster, Ian Davidson, are allowed to project his questionable superstitions, to the detriment of the children within his care.

I say again, chase this character, he is not fit for purpose.
66

David Burness,

Larkhall 22/12/2007 19:41:46
#69. I was under the impression santa claus was a christianisation of the Scandinavian shamanic tradition.

While the article and comments are interesting, my own experiences come to mind. As a child I loved the bible stories, and later joined the boys brigade where religion was also important. I have read much science since and now regard myself as agnostic. I don't believe there is any harm in children hearing bible stories. The one thing we get from them as a society is moral guidance. What moral guidance is offered to those who do not learn of moneychangers at temples and forgiving tax collectors, etc?

I do have some sympathy with the parents here. Schools are RC or non denominational. How is denominational being interpreted here? Adhere to any religion or none surely. The heidie is at the least being narrowminded surely. And education allegedly broadens the mind.

I am also sympthetic to the notion of state schools being strictly secular places, but thats a whole other can of worms.

Christmas is all about profits and losses at retailers. The religious bit got lost long ago. And then theres that polyphonic music at church these days too...
67

Media 1,

cape town 22/12/2007 20:06:12
I think it is shocking that children are used as pawns in the game called religion..And it is even more disturbing when one considers that an adult was responsible for banning the boy from the party..None of the children who attended the party could possibly understand anything to do with theology!Adults who infringe on a childs rights by forcing them into a belief in god, or indeed no belief in god are the most dangerous and dispicable people on Earth! Just let kids be kids, and if they ask a question respond objectively.
We need god screen for kids! Kinda like sun screen only healthier for children!
68

Robbierunciman,

Romney Marsh 22/12/2007 20:14:59
Its a bit rich people like this head teacher equating christmas with the brith of jesus. I think the Koran has him born later in the year. Curiously, this festival has much more to do with Mithras, a Persian god the Romans appropriated (he was born on the 26th).

Perhaps Aberdeen CC needs to have a closer look at the headteacher, she is clearly not very bright and has a shaky grasp of history and of the modern world. I would worry also that she seems to have done this because he was annoyed that the Mother was resisting attempts to have her child brainwashed by a cult.
69

Boy Wonder,

22/12/2007 20:19:00
What was so bad about my comment at #57 that it was removed? Who complained and why? If the Mod agreed and removed it, I think the reason should be given!

After all, I did not swear or make a personal offensive comment. I just blew the lid on Christmas and its basis in history, that's all!

Can't one post an opinion based on reality any more?


70

Stuart y,

Edinburgh 22/12/2007 20:37:01
We have a childrens party at halloween every year, but I don't think any of us believe in witches, children included.
71

weeshooie1,

Australia 22/12/2007 20:51:17
Now, here's a thought. What would have happened if Mary had given birth to twins? :o)

'Merry Xmas to All'
72

Hickory,

US 22/12/2007 20:54:23
Stupid, stupid, stupid. It is so stupid to lay the beliefs of adults on to small children. Shame on you. This child hasn't even matured enough to know what he believes in. Aye, you knot heads are as sinful as any.
Now you have hurt this child and he will never forget it. Where is the genius that denied him access to the party? Now there is a disgrace.
73

Jeremy, ,

Pocono Mountains, U.S.A. 22/12/2007 21:47:13
It is almost incomprehensible someone (presumably educated) that is in a position of authority, would have the audacity and gall to chastise a 9-year old boy because his mother does not believe in his God.

Mr. Davidson is so blinded by his faith, he fails to remember or admit, that we are all born atheists. Overwhelmingly, one's religion is the religion of their parents. Or in the case of Ms Riddell, no religion at all. It would also seem that Mr. Davidson doesn't comprehend the definitions of the words 'party' and 'religion'. I've never been to a house of worship that served "jelly and ice-cream, followed by a visit from Santa and presents". On the other hand, I've never attended a Christmas party that had any religious overtones whatsoever.

In the end, I believe it may be a good lesson for Douglas, the 9-year old boy.
Perhaps he will question authority in the future, and that's always a good thing.
74

The Pict.,

Canada 23/12/2007 00:38:53
# 84 David. You may be correct in that aspect of a Scandinavian Shamanic tradition copy. I'd never heard of it. When I was young I was taught all these biblical stories but nothing of the fact that they were Jewish and were stolen from the Egyptians. Ra was Yaweh and Huros was Christ. Both Ra and Christ 'lived' 2,000 years or more before Yaweh. Nor was I taught that our Scottish God Bel ever 'existed'. Not-with-standing all that, this child was booted out because he and his parents realized the loonesy of all Religion. I again emphasise that one cannot be an athiest unless one was first a jew.

slainte.
75

The Pict.,

Canada 23/12/2007 00:51:21
# 91. I do not agree with you. 'We are all born athiests'. the meaning of athiest to-day is one who does not belief in the Jewish God named Yaweh. As the bible was written BY Jews For Jews those who were born Jewish and do not 'believe' are the ONLY ONES who can be athiests. This rest of us are whatever WE choose to call ourselves. ..Secular humanists, Druids and etc.
76

DonDiego,

USA 23/12/2007 03:36:53
The lady wants to have her cake and eat it, too!
I do not go, or am invited, to any ramadan o jewish celebration, don't care and I respect those folks. But Christmas is my favorite part of the year, and we celebrate the birth of Our Lord. It's a magic time, of hope, love and friendship. AND IT'S ALL ABOUT JESUS, not Buda, Zarathustra or Ormuz. Please get over it already.
77

Alec in Chicago,

Chicago 23/12/2007 11:43:37
74 kiesue
I don't know of any "secularists" who have erased the religious freedom issue from history. However, I do know of a lot of right-wing militant pseudo-Christians who think that religious protections are meant to ensure that they can impose their narrow-minded views on the rest of us.

Strange that the Southern Baptists are chief among them, as when the Baptists were a minority they were awfully glad of protection from state-supported religion. The Danbury Baptists loved President Thomas Jefferson's "wall of separation between church and state." (Contrary to current Christian propaganda, the "wall of separation" was not a recent invention.)

As for what is or is not Christian/religious about Christmas: here in the US, a governmental entity, (such as a city), is free to put up Christmas trees, lights, wreaths, garlands, mistletoe, and pictures or statues of Santa, (with or without sleigh or reindeer); and government offices are allowed Christmas parties, as long as they remain "secular" in nature. However, no governmental entity is allowed to spend public funds on religious items, such as nativity scenes, nor place such items on public lands, as that constitutes government support of religion.

Athough these concepts are not recent, what has happened is that non-Christians became a large enough minority to make many of the previous intrusions of Christianity into government problematic, so the continuance of such practices was challenged.

95 DonDiego Very little of it is about Jesus, which is why you will find Christian sects that eschew most aspects of the modern celebration of Christmas, including feasting and gift-giving. By the way, the celebration of Christmas was banned in many places in early America - by Christian local authorities - as it was considered profane/unseemly/denigrating to their religion. It is also why so many Americans who are not Christian celebrate the common/secular Christmas. (I am always appalled by so many
78

Jeremy, ,

Pocono Mountains, U.S.A. 23/12/2007 15:58:38
#94: It is certainly your prerogative not to agree with my statement. The word 'atheism' however is not related to any particular religion, be it Jewish, Christian, Islam, etc. The prefix 'a' means 'without' and 'theism' means 'belief in a god or gods'.
Literally, atheism means 'without belief in a god or gods', nothing more.

When a baby is born, it instinctively knows only three things. It knows how to breath, cry and suck. Everything else in it's life is learned or taught, and religion is no exception.
We are indeed, "all born atheists".
79

Lady inwaiting,

23/12/2007 17:07:23
Due possible Jehovah witnes?????
80

bluehead,

edinburgh 23/12/2007 18:30:20
I am totally baffled by all this furore,would it not be better for all people to live in harmony,with each
person having their own beleifs
81

Forky,

UK 23/12/2007 19:27:48
#97
I agree with you Jeremy,the belief in an imaginary sky fairy has caused so much pain and suffering on earth than any other subject.
Hytron5
82

nolimits,

Beautifull BC 23/12/2007 22:56:04
Theres nay christians here, only Camerons, come away in.Our house is open to all.
Have a great holiday.
83

fishinclipper,

Calif,USA 23/12/2007 22:59:04
If in fact, you are a non-believer,there should be no interest in Christ's birth celebration. Living in a country where Christians are told and legally mandated to NOT voice Christian values, I would think Scotland,a Godly country, would not follow America and its lawsuit happy secularists.If you remove God from your lives,schools,and jobs,You'll certainly not be able to expect Gods help in your Battles? Yes the boy should be allowed to go, but not if they boast Blastfamy.
84

Clonmines,

Kirkintilloch 23/12/2007 23:57:42
How quick people are to condemn actions. Think of the teachers logic - its simple. The parents refused to have their child included into ANY religious celebration or activity - the boy was excluded by his parents NOT the other way around! Christmas is a religious observance not the hiijacked atheistic nonsense thats going around these days. Therefore its not the teachers' fault - they are protecting the child from any religious connotation or observance as requested by the parents. But now Mr & Mrs Convenient want their cake and eat it and not only that make a media wide complaint when its misunderstood! Come on everyone - get wise. This is likened to the child who is encouraged to misbehave at school by parents (and there are many) but then are up in arms when their child is excluded from school trips that rely on good behaviour. But of course schools don't get a right of reply they are instructed to just bow down to this hypocrisy. The term Christmas has 'Christ' in it - has the school to blot that out in future in case of complaints?
85

McGinty,

24/12/2007 01:02:37
82.

Isn't the problem that we are not multicultural enough? Religion has been and is taught at schools (and has to be by law), often very well, but perhaps not well enough. To be truly multicultural, we need to learn about all the world religions, agnosticism and atheism, especially given the cultural mix in this country. No disrespect, but many opinions on these threads demonstrate just how ignorant we are. Secularism does not mean excluding religion from public life per se. Only hard secularism encourages that. I hear few politicians arguing for that, but I have heard it from ill-informed people. However if the majority want to change into a hard secular state or adopt an atheistic culture, that's our choice, but to do so could mean abandoning 1500 years of history and tradition and careering into the unknown. If someone can show me a precedent where this has been done successfully elsewhere then I'm quite open to suggestions. We have so few politicians in this country with any religious leanings that actually we may as well be hard secularists, so I don't know why the fuss. But religious diversity in public life can actually enrich and enhance our culture, but we seem to be so scared of it that we throw wobblies every time the subject comes up. I'm sure we would see more sense on these boards if it were kids who were commenting.
86

Clonmines,

Glasgow 24/12/2007 01:49:51
82 Yes I agree with 105. Bob lets go down your route for a moment. Take away all religion from schools - that means we then take away any lessons on any religious faiths (because you are still publicly funding them in the curriculum.) That means no understanding of any beliefs at all. Problem is (and its a biggy!) all our understanding of right and wrong comes from beliefs - all our understanding of how to respect and dare I say 'love' each other comes from beliefs. What values do we teach then - all come from beliefs. In short we always will need beliefs and if we try and throw out all we have then we will only replace it with naive, ill-thought out systems and start warring all over again. Its amazing how we are held together by love of God. We are so spoilt we think we can pick and choose and not suffer any consequences. Catholic schools know where they are here - Christmas is all about Christ. I suggest that non-denominational schools hold on to their Christian heritage and beliefs that have helped them be the great schools that they've been - and not have to apologise for it or for their celebration or Christian values.
87

The Pict.,

Canada 24/12/2007 02:12:36
103 fishclipper. Nobody gets help from your jewish God yaweh. You can get something from the toothfairy though. a sixpence (old currency)and in your country a dime under the pillow. Scotland is not a Jewish country with Jewish laws but you can live in Israel and have the fool benefit of your cult.
88

Helene,

Ontario, Canada 24/12/2007 03:16:40
Parent would have been wise to allow her children to attend religion classes, so that they would be able to decide for themselves what to believe at a later age. Knowing ABOUT religion ( the predominant religion(s) plus others)will promote tolerance and open-mindedness, desirable qualities in future citizens. It is also a cultural question.
89

Alec in Chicago,

Chicago 24/12/2007 06:48:09
Re: 95

The Scotsman cut off my last statement.

I am always appalled by so many Americans who spout off about history, but who don't seem to know any.
90

Helen,

24/12/2007 09:56:57
Publius #45....Don't tell me how to live my life. I'll be at work on Christmas Day. I'm doing a 13 hour shift working for a Christian charity among some of societies most rejected and vulnerable people. I couldn't do the job I do if I didn't have my Christian faith and Christian values. I don't want a medal just the right to live out my Christian faith without judgemental statements from people like you who clearly have a lot of ego issues to deal with.
There are thousands of people out there who shouldn't be attending Christmas parties because they don't have any Christian beliefs...this story just happened to make the news because it involved a 9 year old. Most children have a good grasp of theistic belief systems at 9 and should be able to make an informed decision. Of course if his stupid mother has robbed him of the chance ot make an informed decision by withdrawing him from part of the curriculum then the poor lad doesn't have a chance.
91

bluehead,

edinburgh 24/12/2007 12:39:55
this is further proof that as a nation we are going round the bend,each day we hear or read of something else that is beyond belief,if the men and women who died in last war could come back and see the terrible mess this country is in they would be incensed,we are all on our way down the lavvy pan.
what damage that has been done to this country can never be repaired,
92

Alan B,

24/12/2007 16:17:06
The head should be sacked.

I cannot believe the intolerance some of those so call christian posters who back the head and condemn the mother. However it is important that non christians should not condemn christians because of the views of this section.

Even forgetting about the historical routes of Christmas, it clearly now more than just a christian festival. While it is an important time of yr for christians, it is also now a cultural festival for the whole of western society (christian or not).

It is also interesting as this school is not a religious school but a non denominational school. Parents should have the right to remove kids from religous teachings if they think that is the right thing to do.

In relation to religious teaching. There are questions of wether schools should teach religion at all. And if it the school was to teach religion if it is to be in an education matter ie questioningly. From what i remember of RE at school it was taught as if it was fact. This clearly crosses the line of what should be acceptable and is also not admitted to by the posters above that condemn the mother.
93

Clonmines,

Glasgow 24/12/2007 18:58:51
112 Alan. With respect the 'posters' who back the head are not intolerant but supportive - it is you who wants the head sacked, how intolerant is that? You don't seem to be getting the picture - the head continued to remove the boy from yet another Christian celebration as agreed by the parents. I do agree that it was a mistake. I think he had another option of trying to include the boy where possible. This in turn poses the problem of assessing when the boy should be included in all Christian celebrations (e.g. Easter) Its a no-win situation for the head.

Non-denominational doesn't mean non-religious! It means any denomination of the Christian church. Catholic schools also welcome all faiths but there is an expectancy for pupils to be party to catholic teaching as it imbues all aspects of life.
Lets also get one thing clear: Christmas and Easter are about Christ and there's no two ways about it. The Church has a liturgical calendar - all services, masses, readings and these times of the year come from that. If people want to use the time for something else fine but stop telling Christians that Christmas and Easter is about something else because its not! And also stop jumping on the condemnation-wagon asking for sackings etc everytime Christians assert their tradition. See 104 about the importance of values and where they come from.

At best the head may have been frustrated and perhaps silly but he has a point and he did contact the parent beforehand to forewarn. I imagine the parent could've negotiated in time so I'm suspicious about what she did next - did she just want to make an example of this? She went straight to the education authority first and then the papers - why not the head? In her statement, did she have any appreciation of the continuous difficult position she puts teachers in? No! Teachers have to make special arrangements for pupils exemption, extra staffing, monitoring etc. She mentions none of this.

Anyway the head did
94

fishinclipper,

USA 24/12/2007 19:31:04
HELLO Pict, this discussion is not about your intolerance of Jews,See ALL your text somehow lose credibility with your attacks on JEWS ! It is about a small boy whose parent is not accepting the fact that he will be exposed to all teachings and be able to make a choice himself. P.S. All the comments youve attacked are not from Jews as mine are certainly not, moreover, the Jews were attacked and nearly killed off but have won the hearts of (almost) all the world by love not war, try a little tenderness, not all Christian counterparts are violent (joke) God bless all, and....Merry CHRISTmas!
95

Clonmines,

Glasgow 24/12/2007 19:48:02
..continued from 113.

Anyway the head did apologise.
I have sympathy for both sides and I think this is symbolic of the challenge of faith that Scotland and indeed the UK has just now. I feel that many ordinary people are too easily distracted to many options available in todays world and its becoming difficult in an accelerated information society, to make sense of it all. Religion is misrepresented by fanaticism, fundamentalism and Fuzzy Fidelity - we are only hearing about those things in the media. Religion is being given a bad name by those who don't practice or who don't want to be involved. Sectarianism is the prime example. There is an increase in those who's belief requires Christianity in order to downcry it. The famous myth is that we should get rid of religion altogether - see my post 106 for that!

Scotland needs to renew its commitment to Christianity and help ministers and priests in their quest to have it properly understood. In inviting and providing a home for other religions we need to assert our own and make provision for it first. Its from our Christian beliefs that we respect others. We need Christianity to no longer be understood by those who pick and choose historic moments to distort the whole story. We need to stop being suspicious of Christians and remind ourselves who they are. We need to tell the story of Christianity properly and support those who quietly use their Christianity to better society and who ask no thanks for it. No more piggybacking from the militant atheists.
96

Clonmines,

Glasgow 24/12/2007 19:49:29
One more thing... have a Happy Christmas!
97

Jeremy, ,

Pocono Mountains, U.S.A. 24/12/2007 21:08:10
[Forky] I have no problem with people believing in anything they like, and I respect their right to do so. The problem arises (imo) when some people feel compelled to ram their religious beliefs down the throats of others that have no interest in their brand of superstition. In any event, Mr. Davidson had no business denying a child access to a party that is completely non-religious.

Theism is based on the fear of death. Obey, and you will go to heaven. Disobey, and you will go to hell. It's the old carrot and stick routine. Pleasure or pain. I don't want to die, but I don't fear death. Birth is a death sentence, and we all get a turn eventually. Death is the great equalizer. One either excepts death as the natural order of things, or they live their lives under the delusion of an afterlife, and the empty promise of a blissful existence for all eternity in a place called heaven, with a god that has no bases in fact.

No thanks. I live my life in the here and now, and I live it to the fullest. I indulge myself in all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification.

Have a great new year!
98

Haggis MacBagpipes,

Central Canada 25/12/2007 00:02:53
While everyone, above this post, fights it out about who or what is a Christian, or a Jew, or a Muslim, or Agnostic or Aetheist etc., I am going to take my leave of this forum and go feed my face.

I wish everyone using this forum, A Very Merry Christmas and everything you wish for yourselves in 2008.
Cheers,
Haggis MacBagpipes™©
99

Charles Linskaill,

.Edinburgh 25/12/2007 00:32:33
Boy Wonder, I just chased and read your removed Post #57.
The problem was, you were 'damming' the christian belief, not something appropriate, living in this country and at this time of year!
You would have 'upset many'.
100

EPS,

Edinburgh 25/12/2007 01:52:30
I am moved to comment on this story by two wonderful Christmas services that I have attended this evening, at Edinburgh Methodist Central Hall and at St Mary’s Episcopal Cathedral.

Those who say that Christmas has nothing to do with Christ do not know what they are missing. Of course Christmas has evolved, in part, from Pagan festivals, but it is now a Christian festival, and a wonderful one. A thousand people in St Mary’s this evening can vouch for that.

The essence of Christianity is the spirit of Christ, not the dubious historical details, and not the superstitious elements that are inevitably part of its tradition. But this is not the place to discuss Christian Theology (and I am certainly not saying that all Christian Theology is mere superstition). In the two services I attended this evening, we heard uplifting stories about how ordinary people, motivated by the spirit of Christ, have made a real difference to others: to immigrants of all faiths and none, to those afflicted by HIV/AIDS, to the homeless, to the lost in all senses.

It is sad that young Douglas was excluded from the Christmas party. He should not have been. To his credit, the head teacher has realised his mistake and apologised. He is not the only person to have made mistakes in this sad story, for atheists are sinners just as Christians are. I am glad that the mother, too, feels that the situation has been resolved to her satisfaction.

O holy Child of Bethlehem,
Descend to us, we pray;
Cast out our sin, and enter in,
Be born in us today.

A happy Christmas to one and all.
101

The Pict.,

Canada 25/12/2007 23:42:59
# 104 fishclipper. WE SECULAR HUMANSTS and inparticular myself do NOT have intolerence against Jews as you stated. Your religion is of Jewish origin and that is the point I'm making. E.G. Jewish-protestant,Jewish-Catholic and the worst of all Jewish-Born agains all worship the Jewish God Yaweh. If you are ignorant of that fact then don't blame anyone else. And don't try too change the subject, which you christians usually do by attacking others with a lie.
Whe it comes to intolerence The Born-agains get First prize. Why don't you tell the Jewish people what is going to happen to them if they don't become like you Evangelistics? Tell us about YOUR arrmageddon.
102

The Pict.,

Canada 25/12/2007 23:45:10
#121 Should Be fishclipper # 114 not 104.. My appologies # 104
103

Boy Wonder,

26/12/2007 09:24:48
#119. Never once did I "damn" the belief, Charles! I attempted to explain the historical birth of the modern Christian church and just what it is they venerate. Christians should actually try to live by the ethics and morality the Church espouses, which are the same in all religions. It's the "divinity" of the personages I question!
104

Boy Wonder,

26/12/2007 09:26:51
Question ... how can a non-believer be a heretic??
105

Charles Linskaill,

.Edinburgh 26/12/2007 12:18:45
Well BW, I am NO strong believer, or non believer, of any religion, I listen and tell myself,
'Well that's their Believe' and respect, what the person wants to believe.
Children living in this country are bound to ask questions about 'Jesus in a manger' at some point in their young life's, to tell them it is a load of,
'old rubbish'
Would be (I think) unfair and cruel, to the child, being that, the child has to live here, mix, live with everyday images at Christmas time, with others and shops full of our, celebrations of Christmas, 'Santa Yes'
But someday at some-point, the child will ask,
"who is Baby Jesus"?

I read your post, as I was curious to the 'whys' it was removed, it may still be on the net, it takes a bit of chasing.
However BW, it came across, as you 'tearing' the Christian believe to 'shreds'
I think you would have had 'many-a-complaint'
As someone coming across, without an ounce of belief, for the very fundamentals, that make us a civilized Country and the way we live.
106

Boy Wonder,

26/12/2007 19:41:44
#125. How the hell did you find it, Charles? I didn't save it, so I'd like to look at what I'd written that was "so bad"!

I'll check in on this page again and see if you've posted.

Cheers! :)
107

Charles Linskaill,

.Edinburgh 26/12/2007 20:13:50
Hi BW, hope you had a nice Christmas, with your LOML and the girls,
Its quite a bit of 'messing' to find removed posts, I always try to find them, if it is a topic I am interested in, possibly it was one of my posts that were removed, that made me get in the habit of finding them.
Two things I can do!
1. find your one (remember this has all posts on it also) on the particular topic in question, then put the link on here, so you copy and paste, danger being it might get removed again, but I don't see why, because it is only a link, that now don't work on the new Scotsman web site anyhow!
2. tell you on here how to 'do-it', but the danger being, the Scotsman curtailing this in the future!
What you think BW?
108

Ileach,

Dallas 26/12/2007 22:19:35
First of all: St. Nikolaus (Santa Claus) was a Catholic Bishop in Austria (hence the red coat - nothing to do with Coke adverts). He carried food and fuel (coal?) in a bag and brought it to the needy. His name day is celebrated on December 6.
I was raised RC and went to all religious instruction at school. Upon moving to the US, I forgot that there is no such instruction available in US schools. I began thinking when my son, at the age of 7, asked me if "Jesus was the guy who drove the church bus", and I thought that regardless of my upbringing, my child should have the option of knowing what is available to him - for comfort? simply imformation? - take your pick. I think the boy's mother wants it all ways, i.e. remove the child from religious instruction yet have him participate in celebrations. Taking my own child's question - I feel that I do not have the right to impose my religious feelings upon my child. The headie had it right - if mum wants the boy out of religion, then out he should be. If she wants to leave the choice up to her laddie, then I'd have a lot more sympathy with her stance.
109

Charles Linskaill,

.Edinburgh 26/12/2007 22:23:57
Yad better hurry up BW, this was amazingly difficult to find!, page changes may 'Exterminate' you comment on here!
.
.
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:SAqTZPMqTvwJ:thescotsman.scotsman.com/latestnews/Boy-banned-from-school39s-festive.3615286.jp+Boy+banned+from+school%27s+festive+party+for+having+no+belief+in+God&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=29&gl=uk
110

Boy Wonder,

26/12/2007 23:00:12
The LOML got all she wanted and the girls were over the moon with their pressies. I got another greying hair! Hope you and DYW had a good time and results coming soon for you.

And thank you also, my friend! I found my original post thanks to your research. And no, don't tell any more. We might need that system of yours for other Posters! :D
111

Boy Wonder,

26/12/2007 23:01:23
btw ... I'll hold my post back for another time when it will be appropriate.
112

Charles Linskaill,

.Edinburgh 26/12/2007 23:28:47
Cheers BW! glad you caught it and thankyou for your good wishes, we start the IVF very soon, starting with my 'sample', to which I am 'very worried about', being Useless!
I wasn't 'getting-at-you' on that post, it was only my opinion, which maybe not worth very much at times! :-((
113

Boy Wonder,

27/12/2007 01:11:04
Nae probs, Chuck ... good luck with your sample. You're probably not all that useless! :)

And everyone's entitled to their own opinion. I may not agree with you all the time ... but you keep taking the meds and you'll be alright! :)
114

MacLeod,

Aberdeenshire 27/12/2007 09:55:13
Why on earth was BWs post removed? Didn't anyone watch telly on Christmas Day? At 8.30pm we had a committed christian telling the "hidden story of jesus" with its roots in Mithras, Hinduism, Budism etc. He included details of the Gospel of Thomas found at Nag Hamadi (not the dead sea scrolls) which few chrisians are aware of, albeit he avoided too much detail of Gnosticism.

He concluded with the important message of jesus - his teachings. He advised that we don't focus on the dogma of the church and trivial matters such as whether jesus was a diety!! Go figure.
115

Calum Crubag,

Dùn Eideann 27/12/2007 10:10:24
Like Dawkins and Grayling say, most Christians are also non-beleivers - in other people's gods. The reasons they give for not beleiving in Thor, Krishna, Zeus, Allah etc... are the same as some of us give for rejecting the whole lot of them!

http://radgedug.blogspot.com/
116

Boy Wonder,

27/12/2007 11:18:24
#134. I think my post was removed because I said that Jesus as a Jew (which he undeniably was) is not the figure venerated in Church iconography. Instead, we see in every picture and statue, a White European, originally the Emperor Constantine the Great, Pontifex Maximus (pope) of Christianity's three strands, Christian Judaism, Mithraism and the Cult of Isis (incorporating the Vestal Virgins).

Someone doesn't like discussion on this issue. Which is why whoever it was got my post deleted!

But I shall return to this subject on these boards soon enough I think.


117

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 30/12/2007 14:10:40
Teach kids about world wide religion (including Wicca and Pagan)but let none dominate. To all of you who say Christmas is about Jesus Christ open your eyes...generally it no longer is. We have allowed our children to become deluded with a magical day where presents are showered down on them (via the 'never never') by a fictional character that is more powerful to kids than old JC ever was. December the 25th is not about Jesus Christ nor Christianity...look at how we behave at this period...gluttony, greed and decadence are the order of the day...Brits spend vast sums of money on buying gifts and celebrating 'Christmas'...its a joke man. Time to rename it...Saint Nicholas became Santa Claus...how about 'Crassmess'?....there ye are now that should do the trick...
118

Scientia Potentia est,

Aberdeen (For now!) 10/01/2008 15:38:18
I think that many people here are missing the point here;
It was the boys mother who forced the school school to exclude her son from all religious activities in the school...

Thus is it not reasonable to assume that a christmas party is a religious activity??

Furthermore, whatever society/certain parts of society believe christmas to be it is the celebration of the birth of christ. Whether we like to admit it or not our society is christian so that is why we have it as a holiday. If you wish to push that argument on further you could say that any true agnostic/atheist/nihilst would not take holidays at christmas, not give presents and not have any tree.
And for all those agnostic/atheist/nihilst who are now saying 'but christians just stole the ideas and holidays from the pagans', and you still give presents, put up trees and take holidays? If so you really need to think about what you are doing and realise that Paganism is a religion too!!
Definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion


I would also lend my support to all those who said the people who said that the child should not have been withdrawn from the class.
I am from Ireland and also went to catholic schools run and owned orders of priests and in our religion classes we never had beliefs or ideas shoved down our throats. We were educated about christianity, the ideals it holds (I don't think that anyone can say that they are a bad way to live) and all of the other major religions of the world. This was a great way to learn understanding for all the other peoples of the world and I don't think that any person can be fully rounded without that understanding.
Through the years I have had many discussions about religion with true atheists and they are often the most knowledgeable people theologically I have met, so denying a child an education seems short sighted. Is his mother afraid that he might do something ludacris like believe in God??

All in all, I support the headmasters' pos
119

Scientia Potentia est,

Aberdeen (For now!) 10/01/2008 15:41:05
a bit go cut off so here it is!

............position and realise that there were some communication problems in this situation, fundamentally that the child should have been explained what was happening and why!

As I have said I am catholic, and proud to be so, and really have no care for what others believe, as long as it is their choice.
The fundamental point here is INFORMED CHOICE

Scientia potentia est

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge_is_power

120

,

23/02/2008 20:39:22
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