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1,000 new recruits for shipbuilding as Scotland looks beyond recession

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Published Date: 28 January 2009
THEY were the hands that built Scotland's industrial reputation and waved off vast ocean-going liners and warships to faraway seas. Welders, engineers, riggers, pipe fitters, crane operators: skills that once formed the backbone of the Scottish workforce seemed to be redundant in the 21st century.
But when the economy is in crisis, and the financial services sector, upon which the nation has relied so heavily, is contracting, it is time to go back to the future.

In what the Scottish Government believes is a vital step to ensure the future of the country's historic shipbuilding industry, a campaign was launched yesterday to attract new generations to master the old ways.

The Scottish Enterprise drive will seek to encourage more than 1,000 new recruits to work on a multi-billion-pound Ministry of Defence contract.

Although they will be hired predominantly to build Royal Navy aircraft carriers, key figures in Scottish industry believe this will act a springboard, creating a workforce capable of serving the entire engineering sector for years to come.

It is an initiative that seeks not only to counter the current downturn but also, according to Jim Mather, the enterprise minister, to "broaden businesses" and "grow industries" during an unforgiving economic climate.

"Scotland will not simply sit back and wait for things to get better," he said.

The move will also, in part, reclaim the proud heritage of Scottish shipbuilding which has been a vital cog of industry, especially in Glasgow, since the 19th century.

More than 22,000 ships have been built on the banks of the Clyde in the past 200 years.

In the late 1800s, Scotland produced nearly a third of all ships built worldwide, while the year before the start of the First World War, a remarkable 756,976 tons of shipping were launched from Scottish yards.

That was more than the combined production of the United States and Germany.

Despite a long and painful decline that began in the middle of the 20th century, the sector is now performing respectably.

The latest available Scottish annual business statistics, while not taking into account the economic turmoil of the past 12 months, suggest Scottish shipbuilding has bucked a national trend of decline.

Between 2000 and 2006, its gross value added (GVA) – which measures the industry's contribution to the UK economy – rose by 17 per cent from £180 million to £210 million, while the overall UK shipbuilding GVA fell by 2 per cent, from £800 million to £790 million.

Indeed, in 2006, shipbuilding in Scotland accounted for 30 per cent of the industry's turnover and GVA in the UK as a whole, and it employed nearly a quarter of UK shipbuilding's entire workforce.

Today, Scotland's shipbuilders directly employ some 5,400 people. More than 125 companies are involved in the design, manufacture and support of complex warships and specialist ships, with sales worth about £530 million each year.

A report last year by the Fraser of Allander Institute at Strathclyde University revealed that the contribution of BAE Systems' Surface Fleet Solutions to the Scottish economy increased from £253 million in 2006 to £392 million 12 months later.

For every 100 people it employed on the Clyde, a further 68 jobs were supported in other industries.

So shipbuilding is already a sizeable industry, but it is hoped the three-year Scottish Enterprise campaign, backed by the leading ship manufacturers Babcock Marine and BVT Surface Fleet, will improve its standing further.

"The shipbuilding industry is a growing and vibrant business, which is welcome news in what is currently a climate of economic uncertainty," said Ian McMahon, the head of the aerospace, defence and marine team at Scottish Enterprise.

"However, we need to ensure that we retain the vital skills that make Scotland the leading centre for high-technology warship construction and repair, and it is through initiatives such as this campaign that we aim to do so.

"It is now that we must take steps to sustain our industry for the future."

He went on: "It's a great example of industry and government working together to secure and grow an important trade for Scotland – and to create a workforce able to serve the engineering industry in the long term.

"With the Future Aircraft Carrier project on the immediate horizon, and more ships in the pipeline, shipbuilding yards are gearing up for the future.

"There has never been a better time to launch a campaign to recruit and train engineers to meet the demands that this will bring."

The £525,000 marketing campaign – entitled "The Future is Ship-Shape" – aims both to boost the existing shipbuilding workforce and to replace older workers who are nearing retirement age.

It is targeted at school-leavers, adult apprentices, university graduates and skilled workers in other sectors.

The wide range of job opportunities available includes apprentice engineers, designers, welders, electricians, pipe fitters, riggers, crane operators, naval architects, project managers, accountants and administrators.

The campaign will take the form of radio advertisements and promotions, a new website and online social networking advertising. In addition, promotional packs will be sent out to some 32,000 pupils in Glasgow schools.

Mr Mather said the campaign represented a dynamic way of battling difficult economic conditions.

He said: "Scotland is a significant player in the shipbuilding and marine industry, and this campaign will drive the development of a new, skilled workforce capable of serving the future needs of the industry in Scotland.

"This is a key example of innovative marketing to broaden our businesses, grow our industries and, most importantly, create more jobs in Scotland."

John Howie, the managing director of the warships division at Babcock Marine, said: "We hope that the significant investment being made will encourage a greater understanding of all aspects of engineering, supporting organisations like Babcock, who wish to attract Scotland's brightest talent into what is already an exciting and innovative industry."

BACKGROUND

WHEN the ink dried on the £3.9 billion contract for two new Royal Navy aircraft carriers, it was hailed as an historic moment for Scottish shipbuilding. The two supercarriers, the most powerful ships ever constructed in the UK, will safeguard thousands of jobs.

Giant sections of the ships will be built at the BVT Surface Fleet yard at Govan on the Clyde, sustaining more than 3,000 jobs. The assembly of the ships will take place at Babcock Marine yard in Rosyth, securing about 1,600 posts. The ships will be almost 1,000ft long – 300ft longer than the existing ageing Invincible-class carriers, and double the width.

However, the project has attracted controversy over the wisdom of investing in such huge ships. It also emerged last month that the ships, HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales, will be delayed for up to two years, to rescue the Ministry of Defence from a £1.5 billion budget shortfall.


The generation game welding youth to experience

New faces Scott Ballingall and Terri Young
New faces Scott Ballingall and Terri Young
APPRENTICE Terri Young has welding in her blood.

The 17-year-old is following in both her father and grandfather's footsteps in training for a trade which will see her work on the Royal Navy's latest aircraft carriers.

Ms Young, from Rosyth in Fife, joined Babcock Marine in the town's dockyard six months ago after completing a welding course at college.

Her father, George, worked at the dockyard until moving to a Glenrothes firm two years ago, while her grandfather, Jimmy, is a retired welding engineer.

She said: "I did not want to do a female-related job. Most of my friends are retail assistants, but there is much better money in welding.

"I'm one of only two girls among the 15 apprentices, but we all get on really well. I'm not sure when I'll be starting work on the aircraft carriers, but I can't wait."

At BVT Surface Fleet's Govan yard in Glasgow, Scott Ballingall is already getting to grips with naval hardware.

The 20-year-old from Erskine, who is in his third and final year as an apprentice fabricator, is working on the type 45 destroyer Defender.

He won one of 70 apprenticeships from among 1,000 applications after being inspired watching ship launches in the Clyde as a youngster. He hopes to work his way up to shipyard management.

He said: "I was taken to launches by a pal's dad who was a draughtsman. I used to watch them going into the water and started thinking about how a ship becomes a ship.

"Anyone with an interest should definitely think about it. It's a great opportunity and there are so many different aspects – it is not just putting metal on metal.

"It gives you a trade for life that could be transferred to other industries."


What they'll build – a battling behemoth

DISPLACEMENT: 65,000 tonnes. Length: 280m (similar in size to QE2). Six metres taller than Nelson's Column.

SPEED: 25-plus knots.

CREW: 1,500 officers and men – and women.

AIRCRAFT: 40, such as F-35B fighters. Or 25 Chinook helicopters.

PROVISIONS: 1,000 tonnes of food – enough to feed crew for six weeks.

FLIGHT DECK: nearly 13,000sq m – equivalent of 49 tennis courts or three football pitches.

HANGARS: 29,000sq m – equivalent to 12 Olympic swimming pools.

SCHEDULE: HMS Queen Elizabeth expected to enter service around 2016. HMS Prince of Wales two years later.

CONSTRUCTION: Four main companies involved – Babcock Marine, BVT Surface Fleet, BAE Systems Submarine Solutions and Thales Group.

SCOTLAND: Work in Govan, Glasgow, will be worth more than £650 million, and work in Rosyth, Fife, more than £675 million.


Commentary: Revival is not quite that simple

Richard Harris

THE manufacturing sector is suffering. But you need to develop firms in areas where there will be long-term development and high-end jobs.

History shows us that simply trying to prop up an industry does not work. Instead, there needs to be a proper policy of trying to attract, create and sustain the right kind of industry that will prove viable.

A declining skillset is one thing affecting manufacturing, but simply training people is not the solution by itself; it's not that simple. People will be reluctant to train where there is no clear long-term future.

There are also other aspects that are important, such as government procurement.

You can help the manufacturing sector by helping companies to upgrade technologically, and you can provide support through grants that are viable and offset the cost of things like R&D. But grants have to be targeted and have built-in aims.

A company based in Scotland simply cannot compete with a company in China if it is making certain products. You can't just say, "Let's increase manufacturing". There needs to be a demand and we need to be looking at manufacturing that is knowledge-based and ideas-related. That is the way to build up the sector long term.

• Prof Richard Harris is chair of applied economics and director of the Centre for Public Policy for Regions, University of Glasgow.

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1

weeshooie1,

Wollongong 28/01/2009 00:33:12
Phoenix rising, wonderful. The QEII was the last ship I worked on before leaving Scotland. Unfortunately I did'nt get to see the launch.
2

The Strategist,

28/01/2009 00:40:37
Interesting but this doesn't get close to explaining how we build up a civil shipbuilding industry.
3

Jim Baxter RIP,

Sai Kung, Hong Kong 28/01/2009 00:49:59
An industry surviving solely on building machines of war while kids in Scotland have poor schools and the elderly lack good health care. What a world.
4

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 28/01/2009 01:33:52


Jim Baxter ~3,

Yep! Funny how they find money, for "War".

Would anyone attack Scotland?

For What?

Mr Salmond, Our Banks, Our Oil, Edinburgh Castle, or for the few tramps down the Grassmarket?

DON'T THINK-SO SOMEHOW!!

I forgot!, Mr Broon is using us, yet again!

5

Dark Lochnagar,

Symington 28/01/2009 01:33:59
All skills that can be transfered into "civilian" trades. I think it is an excellent idea.
6

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 28/01/2009 01:40:21

Dark Lochnagar ~5,

Maybe So!, but it will be 'short-lived' and passed down to no-one!


7

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 28/01/2009 02:33:31
Great news, all good for Glasgow and Rosyth.
8

W Smith,

Middle East 28/01/2009 03:37:39
Funny to watch the anti-NATO, anti-monarchy, anti-British SNP getting excited about Royal Navy warships.

Lot of nostalgia in this article but thats not the way I remember it.

Who remembers the strike action by the Clydeside communistS at a time when most of the clients were going to South Korea, and its tiger economy, to get the merchant ships built ON TIME AND ON BUDGET!??

To think that the Trade Union leaders on the Clyde, supported by daft left wing Labour MPs, fought change.

The Daewoo yard in South Korea is now able to churn out one ship a week. Thats after their own labour problems and strike action over the years.

BTW
Does South Korea have socialist celebrities like Billy Connelly and Alex Fergusosn saying cheesy things like "it was working in the ship yards that made me the man I am today"?



9

Vaward,

28/01/2009 04:29:58
#3 Jim Baxter RIP

From the 2008/09 UK Budget:

Health £104464 billion

Education: £68060 billion

Defence: £38986 billion
10

Vaward,

28/01/2009 04:34:11
^^^^^^

That should be million i.e. £104 billion, £68 billion, £39 billion, etc,.
11

Dragonhead,

Dalian,China 28/01/2009 04:52:07
Good luck on the Shipbuilding Scotland.
Hope it has more luck attached to it than the Sheridans. He, 44years old,she,44years old,appeared on Channel4 TV! Number 4 in Chinese is almost a 'kiss of death'. Though they have different characters, the one for the number 4,si sounds similar to the one for death also si. The former 4th tone, the latter 3rd tone, which ironically is a rising falling and rising again tone!
12

Dragonhead,

Dalian,China 28/01/2009 04:56:42
Dalian Shipyard is a short distance from where I am at present sitting. The ship I can see about 600metres away is the "Maersk Newton" a bonnie shade of blue hull.Not long finished a 300,000 tonne supertanker.Distance doesn't seem to be the problem for shipmakers.
13

Evolution in action,

St Andrews 28/01/2009 05:01:48
Round up 10,000 new miners, 2000 new tattie picker and 1000 more gillies while you are at it. Lets just all deny that the last 50 years happenened. Maybe Third Lanark will win the cup.
14

Vaward,

28/01/2009 05:05:38
That's awesome, Dragonhead.

All we need is workers in Scotland that will work for £3 a day.
15

Evolution in action,

St Andrews 28/01/2009 05:11:50

What clueless loser is actually suggesting that an industrial level of ship building can be resurrected in Scotland. Please just give me one example of a existing company that can make 100 sail boats or power boats or fishing boats in Scotland in a year.

16

Vaward,

28/01/2009 05:15:50
#15

I'd call 8000 ton destroyers and 70,000 ton aircraft carriers 'industrial' level.
17

Evolution in action,

St Andrews 28/01/2009 05:20:16

I would call 78,000 tons 1/2 of a current generation cruise ship.

Industrial means making the same thing again and again. Not having the government apportion out business to shipyards like ham sandwiches to the homeless.
18

Vaward,

28/01/2009 05:26:11
Well, you have 6 type 45s, then the 2 carriers, then the FSC. That should take us through to 2030/ish. But I see your point.
19

Macuistean,

Isle of Tiree 28/01/2009 06:49:47
I wonder if the aurcraft carriers will ever be built. Westminster was told that the delay in the carriers was called because the aircraft wouldn't be ready on time but the aircraft makers said they would be delivered on time. Who is telling porkies?
20

Astarte,

Giffnock 28/01/2009 06:52:47
#8..WSmith..Middle East (?) Why is it that in every post you comment on every subject and continue to show your nagativity. If you are truly in the Middle East or on an African continent or are simply writing from the Middle-East end of Glasgow it is obvious that your lack of scholarly principle hinders your graduation from the idiot class. My recommendation is that you make some effort to purchas a Library card and borrow from the Children's section and gradually make your wy up...and when you have completed on this, THEN COMMENT and join the debate.
21

Vaward,

28/01/2009 07:09:53
19# Macuistean

There is a difference between operational capability dates and delivery dates, The Times 'journalist' wouldn't know that though. As for the carriers, there has been many, many contracts signed and steel has already been cut. No turning back now.
22

Vaward,

28/01/2009 07:36:34
Ballistic means they've been into orbit.

Unstoppable missiles. Lolz!! Even if they were...

lucky enough to know where the carriers was, getting within 150km of said carrier group, protected by 40 F 35s, AWACS, SAMPSON radar and nuclear subs, is easy said than done.

My money is on the carrier.
23

Phil C,

28/01/2009 07:51:16
"...it is time to go back to the future." It is time to go forward to the future, not back.

Our shipbuilding is hanging on by a thread, mainly based on Westminster warmongering. Nothing wrong with building ships but surely much better to call it engineering and build a useful industry.

We should concentrate on producing what we need to become self-sufficient on our ample natural resources and to providing the bones for a thriving specialist manufacturing base.
24

Class On Grass,

Going ballistic, orbital 28/01/2009 08:14:11

Vaward, Lesson for today: ballistic means unpropelled, flying naturally.
A thrown fridge is ballistic, a bullet is ballistic after the initial propellant phase. The profile defines the sharpness of the curve through the air. The fridge will have a sharper curve, due to the stale cheese.
Contract -wise, any big project is great for Scotland, though I hope timescale are properly planned to be realistic. In the IT (defence sector) contracts are not cost-plus. They must be delivered to agreed times. If not then a penaly clause is reached. This is how it should all work, as otherwise unrealistic bids are made to cut out the opposition, with no intention of meeting the deadlines.

25

Angoos,

Baku, Azerbaijan 28/01/2009 08:19:52
#6 Charlie Boy

Where do you get "it will be 'short-lived' and passed down to no-one" from ????

I served my time in the shipyards (Govan to be exact) in the mid 80's and have gone on to work in the Oil & Gas, Water Treatment, Pharmecutical & Petrochemical Industries over the years, and these young folk that are getting the opportunity to learn a trade are getting the opportunity to do exactly as I have done.

Shipbuilding may be a "dying industry" that is reliant on Government contracts to sustain it but the opportunity to train youngsters and give them a "trade" that will enable them to have a productive career for the rest of their lives should not be sneered at.

This "inititiative", although a bit of political posturing on behalf of the Scottish Executive, will not only help provide a skilled labour force for the shipbuilding industry in Scotland in the short term, but provide much needed experienced people for many other sectors in the engineering labour market for years to come.
26

Wardog™,

28/01/2009 09:00:37

2. Agreed Strategist

it's good especially in the current economic climate to hear there are jobs being created but one has to wonder where the civil shipbuilding is..

27

Stephen Cowley,

Edinburgh 28/01/2009 09:06:57
It's a good idea to try and build on our engineering traditions - as a supplement to selling each other pieces of paper in financial services. Shame they start out so dependent on one customer.
28

Macuistean,

Isle of Tiree 28/01/2009 09:08:54
21 Vaward

The steel may be ordered and some of it may be cut but will the ships be built? Calmac had to go abroad for their last ferry but Ferguson's yard in Port Glasgow could have built it. Could this move be a ploy before we have an election or am I being cynical?
29

Longdirk Maceth,

NZ 28/01/2009 09:26:10
8 W Smith,Middle East. Having inspected many oil rigs that have Korean welding in them I can say that Scottish is miles better, so no wonder the Koreans are cheap!
By the way I see your still posting braindead ranting, but keep it up it's a good laugh.
30

Brodric,

28/01/2009 09:26:13
If recruits are going to be sought, then could they please be Scottish recruits!
31

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 28/01/2009 09:32:44
#29

he doesn't actually understand what the word ballistic means in a mililtary sense.
32

shivago8,

livingston 28/01/2009 09:38:52
Gordon keeping his constituents sweet in Fife by keeping them in jobs in Rosyth
33

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 28/01/2009 09:42:00
Leave off the lot of you! I think it's an excellent idea. It's about time that shipbuilding returned to the Clyde and this plan is a whole lot better than expecting kids to go to university and (in most cases) get a "degree" that isn't worth the paper it's written on.

Rules:

Please stop showing your ignorance about Naval warfare.
34

Vaward,

28/01/2009 09:58:05
#26

Thanks for the lesson, Class On Grass, but I got the following off Wiki:

"A ballistic missile is a missile that follows a sub-orbital ballistic flightpath with the objective of delivering a warhead to a predetermined target."

"sub-orbital spaceflight is a spaceflight in which the spacecraft reaches space"

*shrugs*
35

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 28/01/2009 10:42:10
Rather than waste 4 billion on two supercarriers that will contribute nothing to our defence, it would be far better to support the re-establishment of a civil ship-building industry in this country. 1,000 jobs is a great soundbite, but how much tax-payer's money will each individual job cost to set up, and how cost-effective is that? More debt for all of us to bear?

The UK government neglected our civil ship-building industry (once the best in the world) and lost out dearly when a generation of huge luxury liners were required. The current luxury liner market is huge - when was the last liner built in the UK?
36

Fraz 0810,

Dunfermline 28/01/2009 10:44:40
A ballistic missile is one which "free-falls" to a target, following a propelled phase. Whether it is orbital (actually in space) or sub-orbital (on the edge of the atmosphere) is neither here nor there in relation to the definition of whether it is ballistic or not. Simply put, a ballistic missile would not be used on a moving target such as an aircraft carrier, because the target is predetermined before launch ie, gravity controls the final impact point (having been calculated during the burn/propellant phase). If the target moves, then the missile used against it must, by definition, also be manoueverable.
#26 Vaward - the Wikipedia definition refers to ICBM's, as in practice, the only true sub-orbital missile is one delivered over a long distance, with a nuclear payload. Other than to extend the distance a rocket can travel, there is no other reason to put it in space.
37

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 28/01/2009 10:48:51
Don't be fooled by the spin - there is absolutely no need whatsoever to build two supercarriers at 4 billion as a catalyst to re-establish civil ship-building in the UK. What an excuse!

There are far cheaper ways of doing this.

The last thing we need is another 4 billion down the tubes. We are up to our eyeballs in debt already. The UK is not a superpower - we can no longer keep up with the big boys - and why should we try?

With any luck, the government will not be allowed to borrow more money to pay for those useless, 4 billion pound tubs (or a trident replacement either, for that matter).
38

JohnBowes,

Greenock 28/01/2009 10:53:24
I am a plater to trade - I served my time over 30 years ago.

A fabricator? Aye right. A plater is a plater. Why the silly names?

A welding engineer? Engineer? A welder is a welder. WHERE are they getting these idiotic titles from?

A "fabricator" (plater) from Erskine? Wel, its changed days.

AM I middle class now? The type that is going into such apprenticeships would NEVER have done so thirty years ago.

AND looking at the photo of them, they look helluva clean to be "black squad" apprentices.

Aye, a "daft plater" is a daft plater. Amazing how a job can suddenly become sort of middle class... unbelievable really.

When I left school they literally took HUNDREDS of apprentice platers/welder on. In truth only the daft ones ended up doing it - the "clever" ones became the likes of electricians.

There is something else I don't get. I worked on Trident submarines in Barrow. Metal work is metalwork. The girl in the article says she is looking forward to working on aircraft carriers. It really does not matter if u are working on an aircraft carrier or a cargo boat. Its just the same - metalwork. And welding is erm... welding.

Anyway, best of luck to them.


39

JohnBowes,

28/01/2009 10:59:29
Whenb I was young my girlfriend worked in an old peoples home. I think they call that a care assistant now. IN them days the middle class girls would have looked down on such people.

The middle class girls are now doing those jobs - wearing daft uniforms - and pretending to be nurses. Changed days indeed. Amazing how they can can change a job into a sort of middle class one. Amazing how they complicate the job as well... fancy title and big talk. Sickening really.

I feel so sorry for the real working class school leavers. School leavers from estates in Greenock would have been the apprentice platers/welders a few years ago. What chance have they got now? Is it any wonder that people detest the middle classes and all they stand for? Is it any wonder people take to crime?
40

JohnBowes,

28/01/2009 11:05:49
A welding engineer?

Can someone tell me what the term engineer means in the context of a welding "engineer"?

Welding has been about for a long time. And a welder was a welder. Where is this engineer bit coming from?
41

British flag,

28/01/2009 11:08:59
44. WOULD YOU LIKE TO DO THEIR JOB! you have no idea what you are talking about,these girls are a lifeline to the elderly,without them old folk would be up sh-t creek.
42

JohnBowes,

28/01/2009 11:10:25
Amazing how job titles have changed. Fancy titles but erm... the job is nigh the same. Are people plastic/phoney in the extreme now?

WHY?

Bourgeoise platers? Eh? Platers from Kilmalcolm? WHAT are we turning into?

AND where do our working class young go and what do they do? It would make one weep. In truth, the middle class condemn them whilst stealing their jobs/apprenticeships.

43

JohnBowes,

28/01/2009 11:12:46
British flag, what the **** are u talking about?


I am spotlighting how working class jobs have become sort of middle class jobs. WHAT the **** are u talking about?

Are u a multi id?
44

ecosseman,

FACTS NOT PROPAGANDA 28/01/2009 11:14:19
33#
YOU ARE SPOT ON!
THEY ALSO ALLOWED THE CLYDE TO SILT UP SO MUCH THAT NO DECECENT SIZES BOAT COULD BERTH IN GLASGOW CLYDE SIDE.
I WONDER WHY?
45

Dark Lochnagar,

Symington 28/01/2009 11:25:11
#26 Vaward. Sorry, you seem to be suggesting that to sink an aircraft carrier you should hit it with an old fridge. I am old enough to remember the Falklands and I am quite sure that the Argie ship "the Belgrano" was not sunk by flying fridges but by shells which had dynamite or something in them. Is it the greenhouse gases in the fridge that actually do the damage? Is this why you have to take old fridges to the Burgh Coup for them to get rid of. I've taken my last two fridges there but if I had known that they would be used to further the causes of war and sink aircraft carriers then I would have destroyed them myself. Is someone in the Council getting backhanders from the defence industry? I think we need to know. Perhaps this fine paper could investigate?
46

Jacqueline Hyde ,

On the shelf 28/01/2009 11:29:41
#22
In present day naval deployment, a carrier is the centre of a large battle group of a dozen or more ships and is probably one of the safest places to be in any conflict.

A modern carrier is far more than a ship. It is a complete mobile HQ with awesome resources and logistical capabilities. In fact, during the nineties, a US carrier (the Theodore Roosevelt, I think) was involved in two very separate war zones simultaneously - Iraq and Kosovo. The downside is the relatively large amount of time (50% to 75%) that is required for overhauls and refitting.

The proposed UK carriers are only about two-thirds of the size of the US Nimitz class carriers and hopefully are designed and engineered to spend far more time on active duty.

Congratulations to the Scotsman for not measuring the height in double decker buses . . . but how high is Nelson's Column?
47

JCA REID,

Annan 28/01/2009 11:41:33
Clyde shipbuilding was dying on it's feet in the 1930's & it was simply due to the Cuise liners being built to keep folk from going 'red' & the outbreak of WW2 that kept a dying industry to struggle on for the rest of the century. It should've been wound up in the 1950's!
Scotland's best export.......nostalgia.
48

British flag,

28/01/2009 12:06:56
48. I'm talking about you slagging off care assistants,they deserve better than they get and have to attend college for 2 years to qualify.
49

,

28/01/2009 12:18:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
50

British flag,

28/01/2009 12:25:37
55.IF YOU WISH TO REMAIN ENGLISH, GO THERE TO LIVE. What about the English that have to live in Scotland because of their work! If a English person had said that about a scot living in England all hell would of been let loose.
51

Vaward,

28/01/2009 12:26:03
#55


No offence, mate, but those 22,000 ships wouldn't hane been built in Scotland but for 1707.

Lot's of selective history in this debate.
52

Vaward,

28/01/2009 12:26:26
*have
53

British flag,

28/01/2009 12:26:35
55. Scottish Republic,lol, dream on!
54

Laird o' Glenrothes,

28/01/2009 12:34:40
No. 27 - Angoos

Spot on comment. Similar to you, I served an apprenticeship at Rosyth Dockyard as a Shipwright, then being re-trained as a Draughtsman. That experience has taken me around the world. China, New Zealand, Norway to name a few. I'd advise any teenager looking to start an apprenticeship to jump at the chance and get on board (pardon the pun!).

Another bonus is that the practical skills that I've learned have allowed me to keep the building trade well clear of my house. Kitchens... bathrooms... no problem. I've saved a fortune!

An earlier comment said about useless degrees... in the engineering sector, we've watched people go to uni, get a degree, gone into banking and earned lots more money than they could have earned if they'd gone into engineering. Isn't it amazing how things turn around, now that the banking sector has at last been found out to be what it really is, and led by a bunch of charlatons!
55

Vaward,

28/01/2009 13:47:09
#61 'A supersonic Cruse-type missile is unstoppable'

No warship would ever be built with that logic.

Besides it's total BS.


56

DonetoDeath,

Texas 28/01/2009 14:37:43
Macuistean,Isle of Tiree 28/01/2009 06:49:47
I wonder if the aurcraft carriers will ever be built. Westminster was told that the delay in the carriers was called because the aircraft wouldn't be ready on time but the aircraft makers said they would be delivered on time. Who is telling porkies?

If Obama kills the F-35 today I wonder what will be flown from these carriers?
57

Tristian Neary,

London, UK 28/01/2009 14:38:06

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones Mr Bowes. Its been quietly pointed out to me that you have been in the past, listed on our database as a Weight Control Engineer!!! Did you graduate at same place as Matt Lucas of Fat Fighters?
58

Geoff,

sa 28/01/2009 14:59:59
Gordon brown talks about rescuing the British economy and doing everything in his power to preserve jobs, so its seems strange that in order to defer the spending of a mere 1.5 Billion pounds, the Aircraft carrier programme is delayed yet again. Compared to the tens of billions earmarked to save the banking sector one and a half bill is not a lot of money. The naval shipbuilding programme will generate considerable employment directly and indirectly and would seem tailor made for a "Hoover dam" type rescue plan.
59

JohnBowes,

28/01/2009 15:00:53
British falg, U r still not getting it r u? R u thick?

The point I was making is simple. Years ago "care assistants" were looked down upon. BUT now that we see wee middle glass girls in that line of work we now see people acting as if they are nurses. We also now see them in uniforms that look like nurses uniforms.

In other words, a working class job has become sort of middle class - BUT the job has not changed.

Yes, they are still cleaning bums and feeding old people. The fancy uniform, and fancy title have not changed that. That is cosmetic in the extreme - just like the Wemyss Bay sorts. Do u understand that?

AND not all care assistants have qualificatons. Again, r u an idiot? AND a half wit would know tha u r using umpteen names.

As I said calling a plater a fabrication engineer... still a plater eh?

60

frank mcbride,

lusitania 28/01/2009 15:01:21
#8, W.Smith.

Why no mention of that great Socialist, Teddy Taylor MP (Cathcart)?

If I remember, correctly, he resigned from Thatcher's Socialist Government, of which he was a Minister. Is that not correct?
61

British flag,

28/01/2009 17:03:08
63. OH I'M GETTING IT, WHAT YOU AIN'T GETTING IS THAT SOMETIMES A LITTLE FRILL MAKES THE CR-P JOB MORE BEARABLE!
62

Ell-Jay,

Ottawa, Canada 28/01/2009 18:35:50
I have the feeling that this is totally irrelevant. But there may be government incentives involved in this initiative.

Very old news, but kind of cool.

In about 1978, when the big North Sea oil boom was on in Peterhead/Aberdeen and environs, I was talking to an electrician in an Aberdeen pub. He said that he was taken on contract by some drilling company, flown by helicopter (with his tool-kit, which was a condition of employment), and deposited on a drilling platform.

He disembarked the heli with his stuff, then was escorted to a below-decks environment. Once his eyes had adjusted to the low light environment, he realized that he was in some sort of "chamber" with a bunch of other guys, sitting on the floor, leaning against the walls.

Yep - other tradespeople who had been engaged SOLELY because the drilling company was receiving government grants for each person engaged that well exceeded the cost of bringing them on, let alone paying them for the minimum amount of time that they spent on board the drilling platform (don't know whether a drilling platform is considered to be a "vessel").

Anyone with a sense of honour would decamp after a few days. The contract would be declared null and void. The company kept the grants, the tradespeople would return to the mainland with a few quid, and then seek other employment.

I imagine that I gaped as this fellow told his story. The last 30 years have simply convinced me that stuff like this is absolutely rife in the world, and certainly not confined to the UK.
63

Dragonhead,

Dalian,China 29/01/2009 02:34:08
#65 danielrober.The newly deposed Labour dross in NZ,did what seems to be the trend with socialists in the west.They did away completely with the fighter arm of the RNZAF.They retained Aeromacchi jet trainers.The Skyhawks (with modern updated avionics) are in mothballs.A lease programme for F-16's was scrapped.So they are left with a couple of 767's, 5, C-130's and Andovers,Iroquois etc.
Socialism appears to have a direct correlation between it and the Flower Power Breed,of make love not war ilk.Only nobody told the Russians,or the extremist Muslim nations that! Prats!
64

Dragonhead,

Dalian,China 29/01/2009 02:55:31
#14 Vaward
A wee bit more than 3quid a day mate,food usually included or available at cheap rates and transport to and from provided.A firm I used to work with,provided a substantial lunch.They changed that giving workers 5RMB for each day worked at the end of the month.For What folk fail to take into consideration, is the cost of living comparison between UK and China.ie,LRT (light rail,fast,frequent,airconditioned,and clean).Cost for a two station trip about 20mins or so.1RMB (90cents if electronic top up card)
A bus completely across the city, about 3/4 of an hour 2RMB.Taxi 8RMB flagfall for the first 3kilometres.A trip across the city (of 6million)about GBP2.50.and Dalian,like Shanghai and Beijing, is classified as expensive places to live.
A slap up meal in a 5star Restaurant,with all the trimmings (excluding alcohol),in a private airconditioned suite (own loo and washing facilities)for a party of four, expensive by Chinese standards too, would cost around GBP30-40.

 

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