Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement

 
 
Sunday, 6th July 2008

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the The Scotsman site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

Refinery strike: battle for hearts and minds



Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 28 April 2008
IN THE half-light of 6am, the silent, flag-bearing workers emerged from a place where dawn mist met industrial steam, their faces set like the steel of the refinery behind them.
This was not a day of celebration for union members caught up in the pensions strike at Grangemouth oil refinery. They were workers weighed down by the knowledge that this has become a battle for hearts and minds – and who realise if the effects of their action tip over into fuel shortages or rising petrol costs, any public support they have will quickly ebb away.

The dispute, being played out on a very public stage, stepped up a gear as Unite launched an advertising campaign in national newspapers revealing "The Truth About Ineos", the chemical firm which owns the site. The cost of the adverts will run into tens of thousands of pounds, while Ineos is combating the union view by adding to its in-house media team with the expertise of a London PR agency. Media Zoo includes HSBC, the Arcadia Group and Argos among its clients. It is also a production company, with other firms such as Marks & Spencer and Prudential using them for commercials.

It looks increasingly like a question of who will blink first. On the ground, grim voices employed fighting talk, describing the firm as "liars" and its chairman, multi-billionaire Jim Ratcliffe, as a coward. If anyone was expecting compromise, they were disappointed.

Last night PR experts said the stand-off was increasingly developing into a battle to win over public opinion. Nora Senior, managing director of Weber Shandwick Scotland, said: "Public opinion will be affected once this starts to hit practicalities, such as shortage of petrol. We can't have small businesses suffering and people not getting to work. If this has a major impact on the economy, the unions will lose support.

"The employers are in a different position. Their position is to ensure they are seen to be trying to establish an open dialogue."

With no end in sight, overseas fuel was shipped in to combat panic-buying and a summit involving Alex Salmond and Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, may take place as early as today.

The closure of the plant means the vital Forties pipeline, which supplies a third of the North Sea oil, sputtered to a standstill at a cost of £50 million a day.

As sunrise reflected off the plant's huge chimneys, Mark Lyons, the co-convener of the Unite union, paused to say: "It's just extremely, disappointing. This refinery has operated for almost 80 years without any industrial action at all. Within two years (since Ineos bought it from BP] the country is in deadlock and we had to take this course of action we are reluctant to take."

Mr Lyons said the union had insisted on maintaining safety at the plant during the shutdown and workers were providing unpaid cover.

On the edge of the refinery, which takes in about 750,000 barrels of oil a day, BP's Kinneil plant, where the majority of the oil is stabilised for shipment, was quiet. It runs off Grangemouth's utilities and Ineos has blamed unions for not providing enough power to keep it going. But Mr Lyons said: "The company asked us for an amount of steam for safety. As part of Acas talks, this is the only agreement we reached. This is not enough for Kinneil."

He led his members, armed with flags and placards blaring out condemnations, to the union offices.

There, Michael Grant, a 29-year-old safety representative, said: " It's a serious matter, it's about our pensions. No-one wanted this, but the fact is (Ratcliffe] has and flexed his muscles. It's bully boy tactics."

Cars hooted what workers took to be support for the action – but it is clear that public support is on a knife-edge. Kirsty McGrellis, 29, another safety representative, admitted there was a "mixed bag" of opinion nationally, but said: "I think there's lot of support locally. A wee thumbs-up keeps you going. It's not the union bringing the country to a standstill."

She said under the pension proposal, she would have to work an extra five years and lose £1,600, but added: "It's not about our pensions. It's the future generations of pensions. We are fighting for the future."

Ineos has said it has to end the "Rolls-Royce" non-contributory final-salary pension scheme to ensure the future global competitiveness of Grangemouth. It also wants to close the scheme to new members and replace it with a defined contribution plan.

Petrol prices remained fairly static, according to The Scotsman snapshot survey of stations. A number reported stocks drying up, while others did not know when the next delivery would be. One station in Winchburgh, West Lothian, said it had run out of both diesel and unleaded on Saturday and was not expecting to get supplies until the end of the week. Petrol prices ranged from just over £1, to a high of £1.10, with many garages saying their charge had not changed despite demand.

At an 11am rally in front of the union offices, Michael Connarty, MP for Linlithgow and East Falkirk, said Ineos was "telling lies".

He issued a direct plea to Mr Ratcliffe to meet him, pointing out that he had been very keen for discussion when he wanted to buy the plant. "Where are you hiding, Jim?" he demanded.

Pat Rafferty, Unite regional officer, told a crowd of family members: "It's a bitter battle, but with your help and support we've had all the way along, we will win this.

Earlier, he told The Scotsman: "This is not a joyful occasion for our members."

Richard Longden, of Ineos, agreed it was "a very sad day for Grangemouth", but insisted: "We have done everything in negotiations and meetings to bend over backwards to provide concessions to the unions to prevent strike action."

He said the firm was "trying to ensure the long-term future of Grangemouth as a site" and had ploughed in more than £100 million since buying it.

SO WHAT HAPPENS NOW? THE OPTIONS

Back to Acas talks


Both Ineos and Unite have said their respective doors are open, but they have not resumed discussions since the Acas talks broke down in the middle of last week. If they were to enter talks, industrial action should be suspended for their duration, meaning the plant could get up and running. The Scottish Government has offered both sides the services of the president of the Faculty of Actuaries, Stewart Ritchie, to come up with a fair pensions package.

Union capitulates

If Unite were to accept the terms offered by the company, it would mean an eventual end to the final-salary pension scheme. Such a non-contributory scheme is rare now and the union says its loss would give other firms the green light to lose theirs. Tens of thousands of Scots still enjoy the benefits of final-salary pensions. Under the original proposals from Ineos, existing employees would also have to start contributing to their pensions.

Company capitulates

If Ineos gives in to the union's demands, the plant gets up and running again, the oilfields reopen and fuel supplies to Scotland and the north of England return to normal. However, Ineos says that if it continues to pay out as it has been - with claims that pensions account for 25 per cent of its spending on employees - the firm will not be able to invest in Grangemouth to improve its profitability. It claims this will lead to job losses in the future.

More strikes

Because the union has gone on strike within 28 days of balloting its members, it is now free to take more action as and when it wishes. It has to serve seven days' notice on the company first. However, Unite officials yesterday insisted they had no plans for further, or escalated, action - although they did not rule it out in the future. Depending on when it happened, a further walkout would hamper the process of getting Grangemouth back up and running.

The full article contains 1362 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Angus Ogg,

27/04/2008 23:20:05

Alex Salmond, has said nearly 65,000 tonnes were due at the Forth over the strike period.

We're now in the strike period. Just checked the AIS Sat System and no signs of 65,000 tonnes of fuel being delivered. In fact no signs of even anything with a couple of jerry cans on it.

http://www.shipais.com/currentmap.php?map=Forth

Deserted, just deserted.
2

Dileas,

28/04/2008 00:16:20
Time for the workers to get real - they are lucky to have their final year persnion scheme retained other than for new recruits. This shop steward seems to be trying to make a name for himself like Arthur Scargill, and it was Arthur's workers who suffered!

Get back to work - ditch your shop steward!
3

Padraig,

28/04/2008 00:19:48
These well-paid workers don't know how lucky they are. Get real and ditch this useless strike, otherwise we will have not time for you, just as you are less than concerned for us. And don't tell me you are doing it for the future workers - they can join or refuse to; it's their choice.

There are very few final salary schemes now open to new entrants, even in contributory pension schemes.
4

Senga Jean,

Scotland 28/04/2008 00:40:53
This dispute has an unintended consequence. It confirms that pace McCrone Scotland is being shafted and we are not being subsidised. Scotland must become INDEPENDENT.
5

Laird o' Glenrothes,

28/04/2008 01:37:05
Sorry guys, I'd love to support you in the fight against pension changes. My own pension was changed recently, and if you look at what's being going on over the last 10 years (since Gordon Brown changed tax laws on pensions), most people's pensions have changed too.

This strike will do nothing for you. Your salaries are well above the norm in Central Scotland. Eat humble pie, guys.
6

Manila,

Makati 28/04/2008 02:24:35
Nobody wants to give up a benefit they have been used to getting. However, I suspect this very generous pension scheme really is unsustainable. Just look at the U.S. car industry as an example of how unsustainable retirement benefits (heathcare in their case) will eventually cause serious problems for all employees of the company.

Whether Ineos can get creative in offering some sort of on-off payment, or whatever, is another question. However, I think the Union needs to get its head out of the sand.
7

Edward,

28/04/2008 02:46:40
Interesting snippet from the Dail Mail
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=562289&in_page_id=1770

'In March last year, Ineos received £9million from the Scottish Executive to safeguard 410 jobs at Grangemouth'

By all accounts Jim Radcliffe the majority shareholder of Ineos is a complete bar steward who like to manipulate and get his own way
He has a record of hold the UK government to ransom, which he did over the ICI plant at Runcorn, when he threatened to close it unleaa the government gave him millions.

After watching an interview last night with an Ineos spokesman, I also get the strong impression that Eneos are trying the same thing with Grangemouth with vague threats of closure (permanent closure that is) unless this dispute is settled to Eneos satisfaction. Its about time Gordon Brown got off his fat backside and started making threats of his own against Eneos, or is he willing for Grangemouth to be used as a pawn by Radcliffe
8

subrosa,

28/04/2008 02:52:28
# 1

Thanks for that site. There are quite a few tankers round Aberdeen right at the moment.
9

subrosa,

28/04/2008 02:56:57
# 7

'Its about time Gordon Brown got off his fat backside and started making threats of his own against Eneos, or is he willing for Grangemouth to be used as a pawn by Radcliffe'

Gordon Brown will do anything to bring Scotland to book right now.

Hopefully Alex Salmond will look into how this type of thing can be stopped by the likes of Radcliffe. Tells you a lot about his strategy doesn't it when he's subsidised by the taxpayer.

It's been quite an eye opener this strike in many ways. Not least that our oil should be privatised plus of course the amount of money it makes for the UK Treasury.
10

W Smith,

Middle East 28/04/2008 03:53:38
So the SNP voters think this strike is an issue for Westminter then eh?

You mean like Trident and the Iraq War?

Muscovy Duckman has spent most of his time meddling in issues that were outside his authority as First Minister.

Now we have lazy militants bringing the nation to a standstill and Salmond has decided, very conveniently, its Gordon Brown's problem.

YOU'RE NOT ON DUCKMAN!
11

W Smith,

Middle East 28/04/2008 04:00:13
In the early eighties, President Ronald Reagan sacked every air traffic controller that went on strike.

He brought in the military and got the air traffic going again.

These lazy gits at Grangemouth have a 'right' to go on strike but don't have a right to bring the nation to its knees.

BTW
In the Soviet Union it was illegal to form or be a member of a Trade Union.

Is that what attracted Salmond to the radical left wing 79 Group then?
12

William of Liberton,

EDINBURGH 28/04/2008 04:09:50
4 Senga Jean,

You are quite correct: this dispute reveals just how much of Scotland's oil is pouring into Grangemouth, earning masive profit for global conglomerates, and huge taxation revenue for Westminster (to pay for illegal wars and the purchase of weapons of mass destruction).

Now that we are being governed in Scotland by Scots for Scots, it is high time we were given independent control of our fiscal economy and foreign policy too.
13

Trade-wind,

USA 28/04/2008 05:59:16
To all of you who are telling these guys to give up because they already make a good living, blah blah blah.
If it weren't for guys just like them years ago standing out in the cold and rain to make gains for future workers and insure a decent living wage and pensions all of you would be living less well. Unions have brought the standard of living up for all. Oh yes!
The preasure of rising wages on non union employers has forced up wages for all over the years. There used to be the wealthy and the poor. Unions forced a change to that and provided for the wages that made a middle class. Quit crying and surrendering and and asking these guys to give up. If you don't support them, all Scots will suffer more than the inconvenience you are feeling now. Everytime a company takes away some thing like pay or pension benifits, other companies look at it and use it as a wedge the next time their company negotiates with workers. Who do you think will suffer when they take these things away. Not just the union worker. Every employer union or not will ask, no demand that their workers take a cut as well. These guys are trying to secure a better future for your sons and daughters or grandchildren who will follow them into the jobs they leave. Act like men and women who have a little backbone. Support these guys and your future.
I hear a lot of talk about independance, well to get it you will have to suffer a little in the process. Will you have no more stomach for that fight than you do for your future.
14

,

28/04/2008 06:01:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
15

SeriouslyAmused,

Ayr 28/04/2008 06:19:27
#1 - That site doesn't always have the data. It will depend on others with equipment supplying it. At the moment my own AIS shows a number of vessels in the Forth whilst theirs only shows one. BRO DEVELOPER, named in the Scottish Govt press release, is one of the vessels showing.
16

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 28/04/2008 06:31:26
Those of us who lose money through strikes over which we have no control should be allowed to sue the strikers for compensation.

It is grossly unfair that innocents should pay the bills for the incompetence and greed of others.

Strikers should be made responsible for their actions, as happens everywhere else.
17

Itchy,

28/04/2008 06:36:11
#13 "Unions have brought the standard of living up for all. Oh yes!
"

Rubbish.

Unions are always calling for more tax, more spending and more government which lowers living standards for the country but gives them more power.
18

,

28/04/2008 06:55:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
19

Aesop,

Edinburgh 28/04/2008 07:32:53
An English billionaire versus Scottish workers? It's a no-brainer who to support. Get stuck in Unite, and bring this greedy moneygrubbing speculator to his senses.
20

GP,

28/04/2008 07:39:07
I can't believe what I am reading here.
Jealous spineless people the no hope left brigade want these guys to give up a hard fought right for future generations. You are pathetic and are probably the types who stood by and allowed your final salary schemes to disappear without as much as a wimper.

These hard fought for benefits are not to be given away lightly. We should all be demading the same schemes not lowerring our standards to accommodate the rich who already have even better benefits.
Grow some hehaws you guys every worker in Scotland should have the same basic pension scheme, one like the ex BP staff. The civil service and local and national politicians. Why do you think you do not deserve this?
UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!

The current pemsions for sale are nothing more than 40 year endowments and could perform exactly the same.
Don't be taken in demand a better structure for your retirement and you kids and on and on.

You forefathers would be disgusted by your statements.
21

C.,

28/04/2008 07:43:31
with almost everything i have read in the press and heard on the news, i think Ineos is offering a fair deal to these guys, and following the line which most other big companies are doing and closing the final salary pension schemes. i have never been lucky enough to have a final salary scheme so i don't know what i'm missing, as would most for the 'FUTURE' people who join Ineos will do. I think these Union reps and the shop steward are just out to make a name for themelves and in my view, all the are going to do is ruin it all for the long term of present staff, future staff and the future of the site. Salaries above the normal, they should all get with the real world and be happy that they actually have a job. I for one do not support this strike at all.
22

Non!!,

East Britain 28/04/2008 07:45:29
Public sympathy is going fast and will not survive inconvenience to the public let alone damage to the economy.Back to work!!Now.

This is a throwback to the Scargill days and is just not acceptable.
23

conservative,

Fife 28/04/2008 07:46:05
So these jerks think that they should get wonderful pension schemes paid for by the rest of us eh? They should all have joined the local council where you don't even need to turn up for work to get your bullet-proof publically-subsidised free lunch.
24

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 28/04/2008 07:48:56
Workers are fully entitled to fight for their rights.

What they are not entitled to do is to bring grief to the rest of us.

If their actions can't avoid harming the innocents then the unions should compensate those innocents.

Anything else is irresponsible activity.
25

happy english,

London 28/04/2008 07:52:09
#20 No you are pathetic this strike is making Scotland look weak, those of you who call for Independence how can you, as already Europe and the rest of the UK are having to send extra fuel, a strike like this would make the coumtry go broke. These are greedy men who have better pay and pension conditions then the rest of Scotland, they do not care about there country or people only themselves and especially at a time when it is getting harder for all of us.
26

bbbadger,

28/04/2008 07:59:17
#7
your right INEOS took money from the scottish taxpayer to build a bio diesel plant and did not build it.Dont hear them telling the media that story.Is that FRAUD.
27

bbbadger,

28/04/2008 08:03:38
The multi billionaire owner is not for negotiating,he has just imposed his will telling the employees the pension scheme is closed to new workers and he dosen't plan to close it to existing workers unless market conditions change....thats reassuring
28

danielrober,

28/04/2008 08:03:59
This is a good cop, bad cop fight. On one side you have the company and unions (punch), on the other side the UK-Scots economy/public (judy).

Whatever happens taxpayers money will move into this business reducing net contributions. The few families left that are net tax payers (pivate sector) are going to have to pay even more money. Its exhausting, as the UK-Scots economy is slowly been driven into a European grant style industry.

The sad thing is the managers, unions and company all know this tactic will shut/downgrade the facility. Yet they do not uderstand that means less work, less money and LESS PENSIONS.
29

Langenburger,

28/04/2008 08:05:30
Lions led by a donkey.

The new Arthur Scaqrgill will sell his boys down the river on his quest to become famous!

Unite against him guys!
30

brownlie,

28/04/2008 08:10:40
Having watched the Politics show yesterday some facts became apparent.

The non-contributory pension was agreed between management and unions to compensate for lower wages.

When Ineos took over they agreed with the unions and the local MP that the previous agreement would be adhered to.

Ineos claimed that further investment could not go ahead under present conditions.

Their spokesman repeatedly refused to put a figure on the savings their plans would generate but it is clear that this was tiny compared to the money they claim to need for investment. The spokesman, however, was implying that this action prevented further investment.

Ineos have a track record of trying, and often succeeding, in forcing subsidies from the government.

As far as the union's position is concerned they are obviously reluctant to give up wages in order to prove a point but they, obviously, see this as the thin edge of the wedge and that, if the company are able to adversely affect their conditions in this instance, it follows like night after day that they will further erode pay and conditions.

It appears that the company hope to gain in two ways. If their actions are successful they will be able to ride rough-shod over the union and the work force. If the strike really begins to bite on the public they will be able to hold the government to ransom for compensatory funds and funds for future investment.

It also raises the question of why one of the richest men in the country can claim grants for the government. It is doubtful if any of the workers qualify for government largesse of this nature.
31

carrottop,

Dumfries 28/04/2008 08:11:57
Is LINDSAY McINTOSH sleeping with a Grangemouth striker?
32

Roy,

28/04/2008 08:12:30
Seems to me like Ineos is holding everyone to ransom. How does a situation arise where one company can have so much power? Had anyone ever heard of them a week ago?
33

GP,

28/04/2008 08:14:17
25# can you even read?
The pension changes will not affetc the existing employees so how can this be selfish?
Typical of the modern spineless voter.
34

happy english,

London 28/04/2008 08:18:44
#33 Insults, Insults, Insults, I guess I had better go to work and earn some money to pay my taxes to pay for the selfish AND GREEDY FUEL WORKERS WHO MOST PROBALY EARN FAR MORE THEN THE MAJORITY OF SCOTS.
35

hibbydoug,

edinburgh 28/04/2008 08:21:29
Ineos are obviously not fit to run such a plant-nationalise it !!! and give them nothing.
36

Nebulous,

Aberdeen 28/04/2008 08:29:19
Of course people want a final salary pension. The reason many people have lost them though is that the liabilities are very difficult to quantify.

To the person who says that a defined contributions scheme is like a 40 year endowment - yes it is. However a final salary pension is also like a 40 year endowment for the company - with them being obliged to top it up if there is a shortfall. Many local authorities were paying 11-13% of salary into pension schemes 10 years ago. The employees were paying 6% Now many local authorities are paying 20% + and employees are still paying 6%. Ineos claim the pension costs could rise to 50% on top of the wages bill.

I am absolutely convinced that as huge numbers of baby boomers retire many final salary pensions will never be paid at the rates expected. Public sector employees will be paid out at a percentage - say 70% of expected benefits. Either that or the state pension will not be paid on top as it is at the moment. This is exactly the same as endowments, private pensions and property prices. The promises given to and expectations people have is unachievable.
37

Phil C,

28/04/2008 08:41:52
The vast majority of the pensioned UK working population has accepted far greater changes to their pensions, with reason and without hissy fits, than those proposed to these pampered pooches. They seem to see themselves above the rest of us. I wish the workers would realise the error of their union's ways and ditch them.

Thanks to the lack of negotiation skills of these self-seeking union representatives we now have stalemate. The employer has given up practically all their correct and fair proposals. The dinosaur union has budged not one inch!! They know they have muscle, given the need for fuel. They have abused that and should be punished for it. Salmond might do something were he not just leader of Scotland's talking shop. At present all he can do is dispense wise words to this Labour union. Are they for listening...come on! They want to cause as much trouble and nuisance for everyone as possible.

So it comes down to the man who, as prime minister, does have the authority to act against these unreasonable bandits. Will he! The Sahara will freeze over before old rubber jaws does something, so we'll all just have to sit it out and hope that Labour and all their out-dated practices get voted out very soon.

38

kennyy,

disbelief 28/04/2008 08:46:19
The real story for me here is that there are estimates of loss in revenue to westminster of £50mil/day! If this is 30-40% of the flow from the north sea then are we not looking at the very least roughly £100mil/day i.e. £35 billion/year! These are rough figures but surely in getting a budget of £30bil/yr to play with we (scots) must be getting taken for a ride here by london.

God knows how scots still vote for the union with this blatant p*ss taking. We must be the most stupid or gullable people on the planet.

Can't wait for Alex salmond to get stuck in.

39

Braesbear,

28/04/2008 09:02:21
Connarty is having a laugh with his "where are you hiding Jim" the same could be said about him as I doubt if there was ever a more anonymous MP.

At the end of the day this dispute must stop. In todays real world pension schemes like this are unheard of. They staff at Ineos need to realise that and accept that you must pay for part of your pension like the rest of us and new employees should be offered a modern style pension scheme.

its a tough old world out there.

40

JimC,

Kilmarnock 28/04/2008 09:06:18
The whole senario is quite interesting. Are the company hoping for a hand-out from government? Therefore to negotiate a settlement with workers would not be in their favour at this time. As for the workers, I note no one mentions the 6% contribution workers are being asked to make to their pensions (can't remember where I read that). Agree or not that is a change in T&C in effect a wage cut. I also note the figures quoted by many about how much oil is worth each day to the westminster government, no wonder Brown does not want Independence for Scotland, wake up folks and look at the bigger picture here.
41

Farmernot,

28/04/2008 09:13:13
#38 Spot on......an outdated approach to tackling todays real issues on pensions........Where does Wendy stand on this..........the Mooth is awfy quiet right now
42

Phil C,

28/04/2008 09:27:32
#41 JimC

The 6% thing is away. The company has removed it and all the other conditions, apart from their proposal of not allowing new employees to join this non-contributory final salary scheme.

All the arguments have been gone over a hundred times, so there's no point starting again. As ever it comes down to the entreched situation between those who support the workers and those who don't. In this case the workers have little support because they are being unreasonable. Unfortunately the union has too much power in a situation like this and we will all be made to suffer, unless Gordon Brown removes his digit from his posterior and does something constructive. I won't hold my breath!
43

Scotish Exile,

28/04/2008 09:29:44
strikers get real and plese come down from cloud cuckoo land "non-contributory final-salary pension scheme"...do you realise how lucky you are, I ahve to contribute a % of my salary every month into a pension scheme and I hope that when I retire there is enough for me to live on. Oh to have the luxury of knowing what you will receive when you retire and you contributed hee haw to it in the first place. Get abck to work now!!!
44

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 28/04/2008 09:34:02
#12 William of Liberton "Now that we are being governed in Scotland by Scots for Scots, it is high time we were given independent control of our fiscal economy and foreign policy too"

Your statement gives a profound insight into the narrow bigoted world of nationalism and its xenophobic obsessions. Firstly - the job of a government is to represent ALL the people - and there are many, many people who live in Scotland who are not 'Scots'.

Secondly, the profound crisis we are facing in the UK has been largely brought about by 'Scots': Blair, Brown, Cook, Darling, - all of them 'Scots'. The entire UK has been ruled by the tartan mafia since 1998 and just look at the state we are in: illegal wars, robbed pension funds, collapsing banks, runaway inflation, union strikes.

Can you not get it through your heather-filled skull that in a multi-ethnic society - anyone who demands that government be run upon 'ethnic' or 'nationalist' lines for the benefit of one group is heading down the same road as Somalia, Kosovo, Serbia.
45

Sedov,

Scotland 28/04/2008 09:38:43
Workers do not go on strike because they feel like it but because they are forced to by ruthless corporate decisions which are designed to maximise profits at the workers expense. Well done and victory to the Ineos workers -you are fighting for all of us.
46

mike3,

midlands 28/04/2008 09:44:09
#45

well said, some people don't understand what they wish for.
47

Edward,

28/04/2008 09:45:40
No sign of the supposed convoy of tankers, only three showing
‘Border Tartan’, ‘Alsterstern’ & ‘Bro Developer’
48

brownlie,

28/04/2008 09:47:53
25 Happy english

You must be the boss of the company if it's you that pays the employees. The workers do not get paid from taxes. They get paid from the exorbitant money that they earn for their employer. You contradict yourself in saying in one posting that they are paid more than the rest of us and then you say they are PROBABLY paid more.

Perhaps we should go back to the system where hard-working people will do what they are told by their employers and accept, with a tug on the forelock, the worsening of conditions imposed by the fat-cats.

Do you really think that workers who have never involved themselves in industrial action for over 50 years take this step lightly.

If it was not for the hard fought for conditions negotiated by unions we would all be existing on far less than the ridiculous minimum wage with no security of employment.
49

interstellarmince,

outer-space 28/04/2008 09:48:11
Phil C.

The Establishment can do things when it wants. See, Rt Hon Robin Cook and Greater Manchester Police Chief Constable Michael Todd, both found on a mountain, John Smith and Dr. David Kelly to name a few. One man controls this refinery? Don’t worry, there is no conspiracy.
50

cat1903,

scotland 28/04/2008 09:58:23
#43

The 6% thing is not away,nor are any of the other changes the company want to make to existing employees. When Ineos say they have taken these changes off the table, they forget to add they have only postponed them for 3 months.

The arguments may have been gone over a hundred times but it seems the true facts still aren't reaching some people.
51

David Eyesdale,

Melbourne, Australia 28/04/2008 09:59:21
I know a guy who worked there and resigned because his workmates told him to slow down, he was going too fast at his job and management would expect them all to do as much.

They need to get back to work. To have a dispute over the rights of future workers seems silly to say the least.
52

Hamish Simpson,

Leith 28/04/2008 10:01:00

Very Simple:
1. Unions are behind the times and need to recognise what is going on in the big bad world
2. Staff are being hoodwinked by the unions and being very greedy. Their ill-informed arguments are damaging a number of Scottish businesses.
3. Demonstrates why Scotland annot go it alone
4. If the staff do not want to work then just replace them with staff down South
53

David Eyesdale,

Melbourne, Australia 28/04/2008 10:03:08
One point of interest is that South and North of the border are now seeing the true worth of Scotland to both the union and the economy.

This one's got legs and it's going to run all the way to the top.
54

,

28/04/2008 10:06:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
55

interstellarmince,

outer-space 28/04/2008 10:08:59
The unions and Liebour are controlled by the same Establishment that controls the private banking scam who control private corporations. All orchestrated and choreographed in a coordinated media black-op. Try to use the few brain cells that still exist despite substance abuse and spectator sport misdirection.
56

Venachar,

28/04/2008 10:11:51
Sedov

Who exactly forced the Unite members to go on strike? Did anyone push them out the door? Are they still being paid? Has the consultation period finished?

If BP were so wonderfull why did they sell it?

If Ineos had not bought the plant 1200 and more workers would have no job and be waiting for their pensions now.

This plant has had cost of living increases and pay rises over the years. The oil price is high at present but there is no guarantee that it will always be. How can any company agree to downside which cannot be quantified and is justified on the current oil price.

So, Sedov next time you get benefits say thanks to the poor workers who are paying for your welfare state lifestyle.

And as for Tradewind from the USA

When you manage to organise and run a health service for all your citizens and stop blasting all and sundry with you 50 calibres I may just listen to what you have to say.


57

donald anderson it's me,

28/04/2008 10:14:37
The oil companies no more have the hearts and minds of the people of Scotland than their Labour numpty pals in Westmonster. They have done nothing fr Scotland
58

David Eyesdale,

Melbourne, Australia 28/04/2008 10:18:16
Wrt future workers pension conditions, here's the mail:

If they're not satisfied with the terms and conditions, they need not accept. I'm tipping that for the salaries on offer, they'll fill the posts no worries.
59

Loki, Angel of Death,

The Dark Side 28/04/2008 10:18:40
I told you all what would happen last week, the ordinary motorist would pay for all of this.

The government and whatever fuel companies involved should be working to keep the price from going up but that isn't going to happen. The rich will get richer and the poor will struggle as always and for what? So that a few workers get their way at the expense of a nation!

Is anyone brave enough to stand up and say enough is enough? Revolution now people, all I need is someone to lead and I'll take care of the warfare side of things, reaping souls is what I do best! Our government is doing nothing to stop the petrol stations profiteering as the apathetic population bend over and get right royally screwed as always.

Anyone of those striking workers is welcome to come and see how each penny that goes on a litre of petrol makes our lives more difficult. They don't have our support, that's for sure.

Revolution is the answer!

Stay alive people, it's the only way to live

Loki
60

danielrober,

28/04/2008 10:21:54
# 39 kennyy,disbelief

For one figure of £50 million a day, we lose another industry. I'm sure Al.S will take advantage of this stike. His growing narrow minded tendices will love this conflict to continue. After all strikes are good for politics and bad for the existing economy.

This type of conflict is a nationalists bread and butter. Far better to complain about a strike, inspired by London, than deliver on policies promisses. This is real world politics, a nice distraction for politicans to blame problems on.
61

interstellarmince,

outer-space 28/04/2008 10:23:36
The BBC URL is propaganda crap. Goto the Herald for the 'real' discussion on Scotland's oil.
62

Fairfax,

28/04/2008 10:27:25
interstellarmince (62): "The BBC URL is propaganda crap."

Have you read the URL? The article by Davies is fairly positive for Scottish economics post-independence: he estimates a small, but easily managed deficit, and the advantages of a smaller defence budget and lower corporation tax. Not the nirvana of some estimates, but definitely an economic plus.
63

Sedov,

Scotland 28/04/2008 10:33:26
#57 Venechar the days of doffing your cap to the bosses because you are so grateful to have a job are gone. Its the market and profit that dictates peoples lives and if Ineos had not bought it from BP them some other company would have. I can smell the fear that you and the bosses at Ineos have that strikes like this will spread - but then you can go down to the picket line and tell them how wrong they are - won't you!
64

brownlie,

28/04/2008 10:35:26
52 David

So you know a guy who worked there who was told to slow down.

Strange that the Sun head-lined that about the steel workers and head-lined exactly the same story about the miners during their strike.
65

bluehead,

edinburgh 28/04/2008 10:40:46
it would seem that even some of the brittish people will critisise workers who have the courage to stand up for themselves,if more people had supported the people who were fighting to keep their pension rights/the employers would not have got away with closing there final pension.
it would seem that many brittish people have become as diseased as the labour goverment,who have destroyed this country,any day now this, once great country,will be flushed down the toilet bowl.
it would seem that is their final direction!!!
66

Pomodora,

Gravesend 28/04/2008 10:41:17
Grangemouth workers, do try to ignore the Union bashing that dominates in above comments. Scottish workers are the backbone of Industrial Democracy and you are following in the tradition. Stay with it and don't give up your right to strike and unlike many of your critics who believe that half a loaf is better than none show them that it isn't. In Solidarity with Digniy!
67

interstellarmince,

outer-space 28/04/2008 10:41:41
Faifax

I read it, yes. Still pure propaganda. The BBC will always dull down Scotland's true wealth. The blog responses are also 'edited', that is not many dissenting voices coming through as opposed to the Herald for example. I’ve posted response to many BBC stories - - not one displayed. The BBC moderator ‘filters’ out unwanted blog responses. The English Broadcasting Corp and all the other media channels are controlled from London (New-Troy). The figures coming out now destroy the figures in said piece.
68

interstellarmince,

outer-space 28/04/2008 10:47:37
#65 Brownlie

Indeed. And it's all go in those very newspapers offices... real backbreaking work... clicking a mouse, pressing keys and gazing at a flat screen. That’s when their not down the pub doing research.
69

TrevorD,

Ipswich 28/04/2008 10:53:05
"Under the original proposals from Ineos, existing employees would also have to start contributing to their pensions."
-------------------------------------------------------

Wake up guys - this is hardly an ourage ! The world has changed since your fellow countryman Prudence Brown made his tax raid on all of our pension funds.

There are virtually NO non-contributory final salary pension schemes remaining now.

The employers want YOU to contribute to YOUR pension scheme like most other people ? YES, so you damned well should. (Even Local Government and Civil Service employees pay towards theirs!) Because if you don't pay towards your pension, WE the other taxpapers, will pay your share in the form of higher prices.

And frankly fellas, we just ain't up for that.

Get back to work and enjoy your above average salaries.
70

ValdasTheMan,

Edinburgh 28/04/2008 10:53:10
1200 workers who are on a final salary pension should not be capable of bringing Scotland to a standstill. Their pension is not at risk, so why are they striking? The majority of people working in the private sector do not have a pension scheme as generous as they have. Sack the lot of them, there are plenty others willing to do their job.
71

Sanny,

28/04/2008 11:01:24
This would seem to be a return to the “ugly side of capital" in the shape of Mr Ratcliffe!

The record shows this man to be ruthless and prone to bullying both workers and governments. If he gets away with changing the pension rights of the Grangemouth workers then perhaps the taxpayers should insist on similar action on public service and MP’s pensions! If the most profitable business can’t afford a final salary scheme then how are the taxpayers to afford these INDEX LINKED final salary pension?

Our government needs to tell Ratcliffe that he must return the money given to him to fund a project that he has scrapped. They should also tell him that either they will nationalise his plant or fund an alternative plant in competition.

The only way to deal with this kind of bully is to hurt his pocket and hard!
72

Koffindodger,

Edinburgh 28/04/2008 11:01:52
It's difficult to support the unions on this one as none of their actual members are suffering on this.

They will get to keep their excellent pension which contrary to what some of the posters have said here will still be excellent when they retire.

As for the pension being offered to future employees being somehow substandard to industry averages when taken in conjunction with salaries there, thats probably drivel.

Lets however assume that is true, what usually happens when a skilled, mobile candidate is offered a below par package for a job?; they don't take the job!

The company then either chooses not to hire or it ups the salary.

Problem solved, no sensible need to strike other than to "do a Scargill".

73

,

28/04/2008 11:02:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
74

Koffindodger,

Edinburgh 28/04/2008 11:03:35
68 interstellarmince,

I tried to post things on the Herald and they never appeared; turned out to be the settings on my laptop as opposed to a CONSPIRACY.
75

Sanny,

28/04/2008 11:06:58
71 ValdasTheMan
Obviously you were brought up in the school of “Pull the ladder up Jack, I’m inboard”.

As you so rightly point out these workers are not fighting for their own selfish gain. NO! They are putting their money where their mouth is and fighting to protect the interests of future workers.

If ever a strike could be described as altruistic this is it!!
76

Fairfax,

28/04/2008 11:09:30
interstellarmince (68): "I read it, yes. Still pure propaganda."

It seemed rather positive for the Scottish economy to me, and not too different from several SNP estimates. Still, each to his own. I agree that the BBC heavily moderate their forum, but that's because they're so tediously political correct.

"The English Broadcasting Corp and all the other media channels are controlled from London (New-Troy)."

If only that were so! Still, I'm more interested in your view of London as New-Troy -- surely almost nobody reads Geoffrey of Monmouth in Scotland? Perhaps you should read "1066 and All That" instead.
77

Mikey,

28/04/2008 11:10:37
Amazing to note the jealousy on this board. Just because you don't have something, you don't want anybody else to have it? You're all bl00dy Stalinists! Stalin's USSR functioned the same way as all these jealous posters would like to see Scotland. Jail for strikers and if your neighbour had something you didn't have, then contact the secret police!

As I said, what a load of Stalinists.
78

Sanny,

28/04/2008 11:10:45
70 TrevorD
Trevor how much does your MP contribute to his pension?

79

redpadds,

norfolk 28/04/2008 11:19:13
#3 the workers may get paid a high amount, but many of them work with carsonagenics and the cancer rate is higher than most other industries, so a good pension is only fair as many of these workers may not survive as long as other industries, so they may get less in total
80

interstellarmince,

outer-space 28/04/2008 11:31:06
Koffindodger

I was referring to the BBC Bunion biased censorship, not the Herald which I can post on freely with no censorship. There is a conspiracy. Do some real research if you can manage to tear yourself away from self-imposed mind-prison.
81

Venachar,

28/04/2008 11:31:47
#64 Sedov

In case you've not noticed a lot of jobs have gone too, shipyards, steel, coal and other manufacturing.

You can bet your bottom dollar the the rest of Scotland will still have fuel when Grangemouth closes.
The only people that Mr Ratcliffe and Ineos answer to are his bankers and finaciers. Wake up and smell the coffee!

Instead of going on about your class struggle try answering some of the questions. I think the Unite members are wrong. Neither do I see the need to waste fuel to drive to Grangemouth, I can do what you suggest quite easily here.

82

NorT,

Edinburgh 28/04/2008 11:33:48
Sack all those on strike.I wish I had a pension packet like those workers have. They are as bad as the miners thinking they have a job for life and for their children. Get real and into the modern world.
83

Walter Ego,

Durness 28/04/2008 11:38:11
What a bunch of Thatcherites.
84

bbbadger,

28/04/2008 11:42:21
These billionaires should be able to sack workers who will not accept inferior terms.Furthermore they should be allowed to impose minimum wage, maybe even hire poor immigrant workers on less than minimum wages. Then the present workers can go on benefits and live off the taxes of all their detractors on this site. At what point is it justified to stand up to your employers whims.
85

Dumb Eye @,

28/04/2008 11:44:05
This matter has demonstrated that Scotland has a high proportion of small-minded, mean-spirited, self centred individuals.
Just because some of you don't have something, you see no reason for others to have it - for the record, I am in a private sector non-contributory, final salary pension scheme, should I give this up just to keep the moaners happy? I also earn more than the average salary, should I also give all the extra away?
BTW, applying a little bit of thought (doesn't seem to happen on these boards very often) will bring the realisation that in any situation where an average exists, some figures will fall above it, and some below.
86

Buckpool Loon,

Cheshire 28/04/2008 11:46:24
The workers are right to protect their pension conditions and have every right to do so. The fact that it has become fashionable to lessen the responsibility of the pension industry to provide a decent pension is not an argument for lowering the bar as to what is acceptable, but an indictment on that same industry and the government for reneging on the promises it made to the present retiring population.

For any who argue otherwise their arguing for a failure to become a benchmark. Do your sums and build in all the factors of management fees, transfer costs, inflation over the 20-30-40yrs of your contributions and you may; if your very lucky and extremely prudent come out with a pension around 40 - 50% of your earnings. But remember the small print where they say investments may go down as well as up! An argument that is somewhat disengenuous when it matched with the rich list showing their fortunes have increased by 300% over the last ten years?

The fact is, the pensions industry has turned all the gold its been given first to line its own trough then all the pensions it should have provided into dross.

Now they're screaming for more of the same and some a/holes in this blog are arguing on their behalf.
87

bbbadger,

28/04/2008 11:56:35
I wonder if these billionaires will be on the front line of any future wars they engineer to protect their interest or will it be some worker they have stolen a pension from.
88

interstellarmince,

outer-space 28/04/2008 12:06:34
#77 Fairfax

The Black Nobility, also known as the Babylonian Brotherhood or the Illuminati had an earlier base in Troy which does exist as discovered by Heinrich Schliemann. They were the Khazars whom converted to Judaism on mass and are the orig