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Ukraine split widens as president threatens to call early elections



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Published Date: 04 September 2008
UKRAINE'S president, Viktor Yushchenko, has threatened to dismiss parliament and call early elections after the country's coalition government fell apart in an acrimonious dispute that could intensify divisions between the country's pro-Western and pro-Russian factions.
Addressing the nation on television yesterday, Mr Yushchenko said: "A political and constitutional coup d'etat has started in parliament. I will use my right to dismiss parliament and announce early elections if a new coalition is not formed within
30 days."

His parliamentary allies walked out of the coalition government on Tuesday in protest against new laws, sponsored by supporters of the prime minister, Yulia Tymoshenko, curbing presidential powers and boosting those of the prime minister. Mr Yushchenko has described the laws as unconstitutional, saying they would "set up a prime-ministerial dictatorship".

In response, Ms Tymoshenko placed the blame firmly at the door of the president. The prime minister told a cabinet meeting: "The president and his office have used every means to ruin the coalition. The coalition split on his own decision." She vowed that the cabinet would continue to operate, despite the walkout.

The row between president and prime minister, which comes just days before a visit by Dick Cheney, the vice president of the United States, is the latest dispute in a fractious relationship that started when the two were swept to power in Ukraine's 2004 Orange Revolution.

Rarely, if ever, agreeing on policy, relations between the two leaders reached rock-bottom in August after the pro-Georgian Mr Yushchenko accused Ms Tymoshenko of treason after she allegedly sided with Moscow over Russia's incursion into Georgia by using her party to block a parliamentary motion condemning Russia's actions.

The political instability could well exacerbate concerns held by some Ukrainians that the Kremlin might seek to exploit its weakness in a growing East-West tug-of-war over Ukraine's future.

The Kremlin has regarded Mr Yushchenko's intentions of moving the country of 49 million into the Western fold through membership of the European Union and Nato with distaste, and has made clear it sees Ukraine, which has a significant Russian population, well inside Moscow's sphere of influence.

Ukraine also plays a major strategic role in Moscow's affairs. A significant consumer of Russian energy, Ukrainian pipelines also carry Moscow's oil and gas westwards, and its ports host Russia's Black Sea Fleet under lease agreements.

WHAT NEXT

THE US vice-president, Dick Cheney, says his country has a "deep interest" in the security of its allies in the Caucasus.

Mr Cheney made his comments in Azerbaijan, on the first leg of a tour including Georgia and Ukraine, which analysts say is designed to signal that Washington has not turned its back on former Soviet allies following Russia's war with Georgia last month.

"We've met this evening in the shadow of the recent Russian invasion of Georgia," Mr Cheney told reporters as he sat next to Azerbaijan's president, Ilham Aliyev.

"President Bush has sent me here with a clear and simple message for the people of Azerbaijan and this entire region: The United States has deep and abiding interests in your wellbeing and security.

"The United States strongly believes that together with the nations of Europe, including Turkey, we must work with Azerbaijan and other countries in the Caucasus and Central Asia on additional routes for energy exports."



The full article contains 565 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 03 September 2008 10:25 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Ukraine
 
1

Mashimaro,

China 04/09/2008 01:40:35
This is what happens when the US installs its robber barrons into government like it tried to do in Russia.
2

Rob Bennett,

Point Piper Australia 04/09/2008 04:38:33
Where there is oil and where there is trouble, you can expect to find war criminal, Dick Cheney. Cheney is back, trying to rally support for a failing strategy. The Caucasian lifeline has been shown to be tenuous, its fragility exposed when Sakashvilli, of Georgia, blundered into South Ossetia last month, guns blazing, to attack Russian separatists like the fool that he is. Looks like we may see a new Ukrainian President very soon. Yulia Tymoshenko (the voice of reason) to become Ukraine's new president. In the meanwhile, Dick Cheney struts around with feces all over his face trying to buy friends with a billion US dollars that could have been spent on health care while Americans at home deal with floods and hurricanes. The good old USA is the only western country in the world that does not have free universal health care curtesy of Iraqi war criminal, Dick Cheney. Sick US citizens have to sneak over to Cuba for free health care. God forbid. God Bless America? What a joke! Americans should be saying, God Bless Cuba for looking after us in out time of need.
3

Itchy,

04/09/2008 07:01:11
#1 How would you describe communists if not 'Robber Barons'? The whole idea is rationalized looting.

Ever hear of freedom? No, of course you haven't.

BTW the previous Ukrainian regime was a puppet of Moscow but just ignore that, why don't you?
4

Itchy,

04/09/2008 07:02:30
#2 "Sick US citizens have to sneak over to Cuba for free health care"

Yes, well worth enduring communist dictatorship so you can get free healthcare. Of course, you don't see a connection between the two do you?
5

Mashimaro,

China 04/09/2008 08:59:53
3 & 4
Wow, there you ago again, Itchy, an apologist for the bloodsoaked leaders of the democracy crusade.
Are you ever going to enter a discussion or are you just going to shout slogans from the sidelines?
Did you ever stop to wonder how a beautiful idea like communism always turns into a dictatorship? Maybe you should ask yourself some pertinant questions.
6

Mashimaro,

China 04/09/2008 09:01:32
#4 Yes, some things are well worth enduring a communist "dictatorship" for. Things like food, water, education, health care. Those are the things rich people take for granted and poor people only dream of. Those are the things China is able to provide for its people - for one reason only... it is a "dictatorship" and not a "democracy". If it were a democracy 1 billion people would be starving.
7

WL,

livingston 04/09/2008 09:54:36
Does Mr Cheney not know that Turkey is not in Europe?
8

James Donald,

Newbridge 04/09/2008 11:00:19
#7 WL,livingston - Try Google maps. Part of Turkey is in Europe together with a substancial part of its population.
9

James Donald,

Newbridge 04/09/2008 11:04:47
#6 Mashimaro,Red China - You missed a few of the drawbacks of a Communist dictatorship like Labour Camps, execution pits, famine, deportations, show trials, secret police, political suppression, suppression of religion. Some democracies manage to provide education, health care, food and water without the "drawbacks".
10

James Donald,

Newbridge 04/09/2008 11:09:31
Stéphane Courtois, asserts that "...Communist regimes...turned mass crime into a full-blown system of government". Using unofficial estimates he cites a death toll which totals 94 million, not counting the "excess deaths" (decrease of the population due to lower than the expected birth rate). The breakdown of the number of deaths given by Courtois is as follows:
20 million in the Soviet Union
65 million in the People's Republic of China
1 million in Vietnam
2 million in North Korea
2 million in Cambodia
1 million in the Communist states of Eastern Europe
150,000 in Latin America
1.7 million in Africa
1.5 million in Afghanistan
10,000 deaths "resulting from actions of the international communist movement and communist parties not in power."
From "The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression" by Harvard University Press.
94 million deaths - even Hitler managed to provide education, health care, food and water at less "cost".
11

WL,

livingston 04/09/2008 11:20:49
#8
You are right: 3% of Turkey is in Europe, which is not a significant part.
12

James Donald,

Newbridge 04/09/2008 11:30:01
#11 WL,livingston - This insignificant part contains over 12 million Turks (as well as some Bulgars and other odds and sods) and most of Istanbul. Thus it is just as significant as some of the "wilderness" parts of the Anatolian hinterland and means that (part of) Turkey is part of Europe.
13

Rob Bennett,

Point Piper Australia 04/09/2008 11:59:12
#4 Liceboy -
US accused of war crimes over torture methods
The use of torture by the US Government in the aftermath of the terrorist attacks in New York on September 11, 2001 has come under increasing criticism.
In 1863 at the height of the US civil war, president Abraham Lincoln set the principles for interrogation of prisoners with a famous instruction "military necessity does not admit of cruelty". It took the September 11 attacks to change those principles and Vice-President Dick Cheney said the US would now have to work through the dark side. In response, government lawyers drew up the so-called torture memos that would ultimately unleash the abuses at Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib and at a host of secret CIA "black sites"
Former US Navy General Counsel Alberto Mora describes some some of the interrogation techniques "[Guantanamo Bay detainee] Al-Qahtani was interrogated for and I'm illustrating now, not the exact, something like 48 out of 52 days, often for stretches exceeding 12 to 14 or even 16 hours a day," he said "He was kept in cold rooms such that he was shivering uncontrollably, his heart rate would drop; he was provided fluids intravenously without the opportunity to go to the bathroom. He was sexually humiliated by female US guards and other treatments of this sort." The US Justice Department declared treatment only amounted to torture if it intentionally resulted in pain equivalent to serious injury, organ failure or death. Some are now questioning whether the officials who authorised these techniques may be open to being charged with war crimes.
14

Mashimaro,

China 04/09/2008 12:00:30
#10 Jimmy Dee, you love your body counts, eh? There are so many answers to your wild claims that I'm trying to find a single point to begin. Maybe I should just do this... China has lifted more people out of poverty faster than any other country in the world.
15

James Donald,

Newbridge 04/09/2008 12:12:02
#14 Mashimaro,Red China - "There are so many answers to your wild claims that I'm trying to find a single point to begin" - These are not my wild claims, zippy so spare yourself the mental torture of trying to excuse away all these corpses. Maybe one of the "Useful idiots" will do it for you.
"China has lifted more people out of poverty faster than any other country in the world" - You will see from my list that it has also killed more of its own people than any other (that won't look quite so good on the T-Shirt though).
16

Itchy,

04/09/2008 12:38:43
#5 there you go again, airbrushing genocide and dictatorship.
17

Itchy,

04/09/2008 12:40:18
#9 spot on.

#6 funny you don't mention all those that died of starvation under Mao.

You continually ignore the idea of freedom and think that a right to vote means starvation.
18

Mashimaro,

China 04/09/2008 12:42:03
Jimmy, China has always killed more of its own people than anywhere else - except maybe India, usually because it has more people than anywhere else. That has nothing to do with communism. That is just the way things are in this part of the world. You should try living here some time.

But let us look at the figure of 65 million in China...

Can you break that down for me? How many are attributed to the Great Leap Forward? Are those broken down into those who died in floods and famine, as opposed to those who died purely as a result of the policy?
The generally accepted total for the Great Leap is around 30 million. It's interesting to note that China had a famine in 1907 - a mere one year issue - in which 24 million peole died. A drought in 1941 caused 3 million deaths. A famine in 1928 caused 3 million deaths. In 1936, 5 million people died of famine. In 1931, 3.5 million people died in a flood, in China. 700,000 died in the 1938 flood, 145,000 in 1935. That brings me roughly to 39 million dead of natural disasters in China in less than 40 years.
So one could really argue that before Mao got there, things were just as bad. And I haven't even started counting wars, executions, etc etc.
Now, I don't mean to be an Asiaist, but if you take a look at the highest amount of deaths from natural disasters, Europe only ever comes up once - the 2003 heatwave. That's the WHOLE of europe. China comes up twice, along with India and Bangladesh. The US comes up twice, wildfires and avalanches.
It could just be, Jimmy Dee, that Asia is prone to larger natural disaster than you might ever have to face. Count yourself lucky.
19

Mashimaro,

China 04/09/2008 12:53:19
#17 "You continually ignore the idea of freedom and think that a right to vote means starvation."

Darn right I do. I've seen what "freedom" has done to Monglia, South Africa and Zimbabwe. I see what it does to Thailand and the Philippines. Best of all, I get to see what it's done to India. I've seen what the west's idea of "freedom" brought for women in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
Believe me, freedom is entirely overrated. If China had "freedom" it would still be a famine-struck backwater in Asia.
I think you forget that when you got your freedom, your country was well on its way to a peaceful and prosperous existance brought about by the crushing force of your empires which robbed billions of people of their freedom.
Now that you actually have your freedom your society is imploding. The absolute irony is that your countries are being bought by people who (according to you) have no freedom. You're being sold to the emirates run by family royalties, to Russia and to China.
Makes ya think, doesn't it?
20

James Donald,

Newbridge 04/09/2008 13:11:04
#18 Mashimaro,Red China - "China has always killed more of its own people than anywhere else" - what I actually wrote was "it has also killed more of its own people than any other", not the same thing.
"Can you break that down for me?" - No, you will have to read the book. Oh, that's right you can't read this particular book because it is banned in the workers' paradise. Bummer eh? Let's just say that the 65 million were not all the result of natural disasters unless of course you stretch the description of "natural disaster" to include Communist Government.
I count myself lucky that I have never had to live under a Communist dictatorship but it is not all down to luck. Communists regimes and their "useful idiot" allies have to be resisted by military and political force.

21

gus1940,

Edinburgh 04/09/2008 13:13:40
So they send Cheney to Georgia.

Who is doing the provoking?
22

Mashimaro,

China 04/09/2008 13:28:07
#20 I couldn't be bothered to read it, just like you couldn't be bothered to read William Blum's stuff.
Mao made huge mistakes. He got very bad advice from the Soviets. He also had one of the worst famines and floods in China's history to deal with.
I don't defend his policy, but he is not the demon the west make him out to be.
He is also not the ideal face of communism. He just happened to be the person who had the strength to bring communism to China, and the strength to hold on to it in the face of overwhelming odds. If he had let it slip through his fingers we would be facing famine and destruction today, just like India and Africa do.
23

James Donald,

Newbridge 04/09/2008 14:32:55
#22 Mashimaro,Red China - Bothered or not, you are not permitted to read it (or even flick through the pictures) because your government does not allow it.
"Mao made huge mistakes. He got very bad advice from the Soviets" - Hardy, har, har.....you are a comedian. The feeble squirming of an apologist for Communist killers would be quite amusing if it was not for the fact that so many died as a direct result of Mao's policies and Communist dogma.
Mao also gave bad advice, like advising the Soviets to invade Hungary in 1956.
Other states manage to avoid famine and destruction without resorting to Communism. Why should the Chinese not be able to do so?
24

Rob Bennett,

Point Piper Australia 04/09/2008 15:21:21
Millions of people in the Horn of Africa region are facing starvation because of failed harvests and the global increases in the price of food, an aid agency warned today. ActionAid said the situation in Ethiopia, Kenya, Somalia, Eritrea and Djibouti could become catastrophic if action was not taken. Last week, the poverty fighting organisation Concern Worldwide warned that millions of people in Ethiopia were facing starvation. The country's February harvest failed due to the worst drought in years. The Ethiopian government estimates that 4.6 million people need emergency food aid immediately as Dick Cheney hands Georgia a cheque for one billion US dollars. US Col Lawrence Wilkerson accused Mr Cheney of ignoring a decision by President Bush on the treatment of prisoners in the war on terror. Asked by the BBC's Today if Mr Cheney could be accused of war crimes, he said: "It's an interesting question." "Certainly it is a domestic crime to advocate terror," he added. "And I would suspect, for whatever it's worth, it's an international crime as well."
25

James Donald,

Newbridge 04/09/2008 16:06:56
The current crop of “useful idiots,” acting as apologists for Vladimir Putin’s recent imperialist aggression in Georgia, is neither so naïve nor so lowly regarded by the Kremlin. But like their pro-Soviet predecessors, they seek to mask the malice behind the Russian government’s actions, particularly in Georgia. Chief among them is former German chancellor Gerhard Schroeder. While the current German chancellor, conservative Angela Merkl, has placed herself firmly on Georgia’s side in the conflict, the socialist Schroeder is blaming the small Caucasian nation for a war incited by Moscow.
In a recent interview with the German magazine Der Spiegel, Schroeder shamelessly recited Russia’s talking points. Among other implausible assertions, he claimed that it was Georgia’s invasion of South Ossetia that “triggered the current armed hostilities” and called Georgian president, Mikhail Saakashvili, “a gambler.” No mention of the passports that Russia had issued to South Ossetians with the deliberate goal of fomenting political trouble for its despised neighbor.
Instead, Schroeder had only kind words for Russia. The Kremlin, he believes, has no interest in military conflicts and poses no renewed threat to her neighbors. Forget Russia’s two wars in Chechnya, its attempted invasion of Georgia, and its cyber warfare attack against Estonian government computers. Never mind Russia’s suspension of energy deliveries to the Ukraine during a political imbroglio – such energy embargoes are Russia’s new form of political ultimatum – and the attempted poisoning of a sitting Ukrainian president, Victor Yuschenko, by the Russian secret police. Instead, Schroeder upbraided Georgia’s Western allies, saying there have been “serious mistakes made by the West in its Russia policy.” As for Russia, peace is its only interest.
In some significant wars, to be sure, Schroder differs from the useful idiots of old. Soviet apologists of an earlier era acted out of naïveté or misguided political i
26

James Donald,

Newbridge 04/09/2008 16:07:35
Schroder differs from the useful idiots of old. Soviet apologists of an earlier era acted out of naïveté or misguided political idealism. By contrast, Schroeder is a true capitalist: His attempt to minimize Russia’s belligerence is fundamentally about money. The former German chancellor has been on Vladimir Putin’s payroll almost since the day he left office in 2005 (and some believe possibly even before). Barely three weeks after his resignation, Schroeder announced that he was going to work for Russia’s Gazprom, the gigantic, state-owned energy company, whose chairman is a former East German Stasi (secret police) officer. The Stasi officer was friendly with Putin when Putin was a KGB operative stationed in East Germany.

Schroeder’s decision to work for an energy corporation shocked his leftist and liberal supporters on both sides of the Atlantic, especially in his own socialist party. Many believed he was arranging his “personal retirement plan” while still in office, since he had championed in Germany’s parliament the building of a controversial Gazprom pipeline. Due to this cynical opportunism, he has rightly been called Germany’s worst post-war chancellor.

Schroeder is not the only one to receive money for taking pro-Russia positions. According to the Brussels Journal, other influential people abroad, including journalists, who support the Russian government’s line, receive financing from Kremlin coffers. In the Cold War, communist intelligence services called such media supporters in the West “relay stations,” and it is highly likely some may never have left their old employer’s service.

Of course, some European publications took anti-U.S. or anti-Georgia positions simply due to the widespread dislike of America and its allies. Der Spiegel, for example, claimed America was indirectly responsible for the conflict due to its arming and training of Georgian forces and for supporting Georgia’s membership in NATO.

Scotland’s Sunday Herald was more d
27

James Donald,

Newbridge 04/09/2008 16:09:49
Scotland’s Sunday Herald was more direct. It called Americans hypocrites for complaining about Russia’s invasion of Georgia when America had invaded Iraq, usurping that nation’s sovereignty. (Never mind that Iraq was a rogue-state dictatorship that routinely flouted its international treaty obligations, while Georgia is a democratic country that has sought to expand its ties to the West.) England’s Guardian went even further, calling the Georgian war “a tale of US expansion not Russian aggression.” There was no criticism of either Russia or Putin in either story let alone any sympathy for the 100,000 war refugees.

In the United States, a column in The Nation indulged in a Republican conspiracy theory. It blamed Randy Scheunemann, John McCain’s foreign policy advisor, for the war, since he had once been a paid lobbyist for Georgia in Washington. In another conspiracy fantasy worthy of Soviet-era Pravda, a Russian state radio station told listeners that Dick Cheney was responsible for the war as part of a plot to prevent Barack Obama from being elected American president.

Wherever these anti-American, anti-Georgian views surfaced in the West, there was a sense of gloating that an American ally had been so severely defeated. This twisted view is eerily similar to the Left’s state of mind after the fall of Saigon in 1975. And it would most likely have manifested itself again if America had been defeated and humiliated in Iraq.
28

James Donald,

Newbridge 04/09/2008 16:14:28
#25-#27 gives a US view of modern "useful idiots". Their motivation was quite clear during the Cold War as many were hard line Communists who considered Stalin's purges as "tough love" for waiverers. It is not quite so clear what the motivation is for the "useful idiots" of today and what they hope to achieve (besides giving streched Western intelligence agencies additional work).
29

Mashimaro,

China 04/09/2008 16:21:40
#24 Excellent point. But I wasn't going to be the one t go to Africa on this.

#23 what nations avoid famine? What shining examples are you going to give me?
30

James Donald,

Newbridge 04/09/2008 16:37:56
#29 Mashimaro,Red China - "what nations avoid famine?" When was the last time you heard of a famine in Europe?
31

McGinty,

Glasgow & Aberdeen 04/09/2008 16:48:42
Some people never give up, and Scotland could probably do without American propaganda, but more than that, Chinese and Russian, not so much propaganda but serious distortions of history.
32

Vasya,

04/09/2008 17:56:57
Bah! The same people))) and our brave epigon of civilization with its democratic values James)))
James, how would you describe the role of Great Britain in oipum wars in China.
I really like the position of that kind of teachers that have being robbing the whole world for centuries and having impudence to teach their victims))) This feature of West I will never understand. They are always right))) By the way that is the reason of the conflicts of West with other cultures. West never even tries to understand. Ego cogito ergo sum, ego is everything. We live in good conditions and do not have famine means we are good and our way of living is the best))) Yes, "golden billion" lives more or less fine but why??? Isn't it because of robbery of the rest Earth population??? China existed for thousends years when your ancestors, James, sat on tree branches. Can you imagin havoc in country with 1 billion people??? Starvation will be immidiate consequence of that. Chinees are greatful to Communist Party for that and I understand why but you, James, will never I guess you was born brain washed... #25 "Putin’s recent imperialist aggression in Georgia"
James today American forces invaded Pakistan because they thought something about Taliban, Al Qaeda and mythological Usama ben Laden... But that is good because according to James # 27 there are good countries (with western puppets in power) and there are bad countries (selfstanding). Clear like this: " ...Iraq was a rogue-state dictatorship that routinely flouted its international treaty obligations" (which obligations our dear lier??? The reason for invasion was (just to remind you) Saddam's mass desctruction weapon in mind. It is not your business what is going on in other countries. Who the hell are you to decide should Saddam be in power or not????
But anyway "while Georgia is a democratic country that has sought to expand its ties to the West" means it is automatically good country))) What is democratic in Georgia, Jam
33

Vasya,

04/09/2008 17:57:55
"while Georgia is a democratic country that has sought to expand its ties to the West" means it is automatically good country))) What is democratic in Georgia, James??? Tell me please.
34

Vasya,

04/09/2008 18:02:31
James... I understood from your posts that your idea that "useful idiots" are someone else not you.
James you did read a page of original Pravda and have no idea what you are talking about)))
35

Vasya,

04/09/2008 18:10:25
"Schroeder is not the only one to receive money for taking pro-Russia positions". )))) James you are really funny. Russian money are bad, western money are good))) Saakashvili is paid officially by Soros))) What sovereighn interests can follow such president???
"Money do not smell, son" these words are 2000 years old.
36

Itchy,

04/09/2008 21:25:17
#19 "That has nothing to do with communism"

Yes it has. Communism is genocidal.

Since this is a story about the Ukraine, let's have a look at what happened in the 1930s.

When Stalin collectivized the Kulak's farms, 10 million died of starvation.
37

Itchy,

04/09/2008 21:30:27
#19 "Darn right I do. I've seen what "freedom" has done to Monglia, South Africa and Zimbabwe."

Zimbabwe has a Marxist-Leninist government. The fact that you blame their economic collapse on "freedom" shows that you are not merely stupid but dishonest and evil.
38

Itchy,

04/09/2008 21:41:53
#19 "Believe me, freedom is entirely overrated. If China had "freedom" it would still be a famine-struck backwater in Asia.
"

You are mentally retarded.

You do not even know what freedom means do you?

Concepts like free trade, free speech, freedom of expression, freedom of association, the right to own property and not have it seized by the state.

You deserve all you get.
39

James Donald,

Newbridge 04/09/2008 21:48:12
#32 Vasya - Ah, the impudent Untermensch reappears in defence of Mother Russia.
The opium wars were not only "before my time" but nearly 2 centuries ago, around about the time that Tsarist Russia was colonising the Caucasus, something "Tsar" Putin would like to do again now.
Your posts are full of the rhetoric of the Communist scum from the Soviet era and are worthy only of contempt.
The problem with the countries that were formerly in the Soviet Union and part of the Warsaw Pact is that they were not "de-Sovietised" in the way that Germany was de-Nazified after WW2. Communist killers and criminals are still at large and go unpunished and the ideology that brough death and suffering to millions is still seen by many as a political choice. Communism should have been rooted out and banned rather than allowed to participate in the democratic political process. Russian colonists should have been returned to Russia rather than allowed to remain in foreign countries to forment unrest as they do in Estonia and Moldova.
The words at #27 are not mine as you would realise if you had read and understood post #28. Perhaps you should learn some more English before you sally forth to a foreign website with a smug and stroppy attitude.
40

Mashimaro,

China 05/09/2008 02:20:52
#38 Itchy, I have lived under both systems. I prefer to have food on my plate, water in my taps, education for my children, rather than having a coup every four years, I prefer having a government that can take decsions and get things done. I prefer not to have a power supply that cuts out every six hours, assassinations, vigilantes, murder, rape, robbery.
I don't want to bring my daughter up in a country that thinks a terrorist has "rights" or a paedophile should be allowed back into society or a rapist should be set free.
I want the human rights that protect citizens not criminals.
And where I am now, that's where I have them.
My government owns my water supply and my fuel supply and my power supply. It doesn't sell it out to greedy corporations that will leave the poor people without water.
Take your freedom and watch your society implode. Those that don't have freedom will have it in their control within 20 years and you'll be living under their system anyway.
41

Mashimaro,

China 05/09/2008 02:21:49
Oh, and Itchy, try to play the ball, not the man. Name calling is really childish.
42

Mashimaro,

China 05/09/2008 02:23:30
#30 Doh! Did you read the stuff I posted on natural disasters? Huh? Or are you just playing stupid.
43

Mashimaro,

China 05/09/2008 02:33:43
#37 A "demoractically" elected leader and an erstwhile puppet of the British. That is Mr Mugabe.

#36 The Kulaks, for a large part, brought a lot of the trouble on themselves. If they had done what was expected of them instead of trying to side with their western puppet masters and agent provacteurs, they wouldn't have had so much trouble.
I guess they too had the silly idea that freedom was worth dying for.
44

Rob Bennett,

Point Piper Australia 05/09/2008 03:21:54
Here's the latest from Ukriane:
Yanukovych and Tymoshenko are most popular candidacies for President – poll.
Party of Regions leader Victor Yanukovych and Prime Minister of Ukraine Yulia Tymoshenko are still the most popular candidacies for post of Ukrainian President.
These are the results of a poll carried out by the Institute of Sociology of the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine.
If the presidential election took place in Ukraine in 2008, 27.8% of those polled would vote for Victor Yanukovych, 22.5% for Yulia Tymoshenko, 5% for Petro Symonenko, 4.7% - for Victor Yushchenko, 3.8% - for Volodymyr Lytvyn, 2.7% - for Arseniy Yatseniuk, 1.7% - for Natalya Vitrenko, and some 0.6% - for Valentyna Semenyuk. Some 2% of respondents would vote for other candidacies, 7.5% would vote against all, and 21.5% could not answer the question. At the same time, 74.6% of those polled are ready to take part in the presidential election, 20.1% said they will not vote, and 5.3% could not answer the question.
The poll was carried out in all regions of Ukraine, the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, Kyiv, and Sevastopol. On the whole, 1800 people took part in the poll. It's bye bye Victor Yushchenko the Godfather of Suckavilli's son. How good is that? This is bad news for James Donald and Iraqi war criminal Dick Cheney.
45

Rob Bennett,

Point Piper Australia 05/09/2008 04:06:50
NATO's goal is "to keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down." Lord Ismay, first NATO Secretary-General. The North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) is a relic of the Cold War. It was created on April 4, 1949 as a defensive alliance of Western Europe countries plus Canada and the United States to protect the former countries from encroachments by the Soviet Union. But since 1991, the Soviet empire no longer exists and Russia has been cooperating economically with Western European countries, supplying them with gas and oil, and all types of commodities. This has increased European economic interdependence and thus greatly reduced the need for such a defensive military alliance above and beyond European countries' own self-defense military system. But the U.S. government does not see things that way. It would prefer keeping its role as Europe's patronizing protector and as the world's sole superpower. NATO is a convenient tool to that effect. But maybe the world should be worried about those who go around the planet with a can of gasoline in one hand and a box of matches in the other, pretending to sell fire insurance. As of now, it is a fact that the U.S. government and the American foreign affairs nomenklatura see NATO as an important tool of American foreign policy of intervention around the world. Since many American politicians do not anymore support de facto the United Nations as the supreme international organization devoted to maintaining peace in the world, a U.S.-controlled NATO would seem to be, in their eyes, a most attractive substitute to the United Nations for providing a legal front for their otherwise illegal offensive military undertakings around the world. They prefer to control totally a smaller organization such as NATO, even though it has become a redundant institution, than to have to make compromises at the U.N., where the U.S nevertheless has one of the five vetoes on the Security Council. That is the strong rationale beh
46

Rob Bennett,

Point Piper Australia 05/09/2008 04:10:09
That is the strong rationale behind the proposals to reshape, reorient and enlarge NATO, in order to transform it into a flexible tool of American foreign policy. This is another demonstration that redundant institutions have a life of their own. Indeed, when the purpose for which they have been initially established no longer exists, new purposes are invented to keep them going. Regarding NATO, the plan is to turn it into an aggrandized offensive imperial U.S.-dominated political and military alliance against the rest of the world. According to plan, NATO would be enlarged in the Central-Eastern European region to include not only most of the former members of the Warsaw Pact (Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Romania, Albania and Hungary) and many of the former republics of the Soviet Union (Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Georgia and Ukraine), but also in Asia to include Japan, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, and possibly admit Israel in the Middle East. Today the initially 12-member NATO has mushroomed into a 26-member organization. In the future, if the U.S. has its way, NATO could be a 40-member organization. In the United States, both the Republicans and the Democrats see the old NATO transformed into this new offensive military alliance as a good (neocon) idea to promote American interests around the world, as well as those of its close allies, such as Israel. It is not only an idea actively promoted by the neocon Bush-Cheney administration, but also by the neoconservative advisers to both 2008 American presidential candidates, Sen. John McCain and Sen. Barack Obama. Indeed, both 2008 presidential candidates are enthusiastic military interventionists, and this is essentially because both rely on advisers originating from the same neocon camp.
47

Rob Bennett,

Point Piper Australia 05/09/2008 04:12:07
For instance, the rush with which the Bush-Cheney recklessly promised NATO membership to the former Soviet republic of Georgia and American military support and supply is a good example of how NATO is viewed in Washington D.C. by both main American political parties. For one, Republican presidential candidate John McCain envisages a new world order built around a neocon-inspired "League of Democracies" that would de facto replace the United Nations and through which the United States would rule the world. Secondly, Sen. Barack Obama's position is not that far from Sen. McCain's foreign policy proposals. Indeed, Sen. Obama advocates the use of U.S. military force and multilateral military interventions in regional crises, for “humanitarian purposes”, even if by so doing, the United Nations must be bypassed. Therefore, if he ever gains power, it is a safe bet that Sen. Obama would not have any qualms about adopting Sen. McCain's view of the world. For example, both presidential candidates would probably support the removal of the no “first strike” clause from the NATO convention. It can be taken for granted that with either politician in the White House, the world would be a less lawful and a less safe place, and would not be more advanced than it has become under the lawless Bush-Cheney administration. However, it is difficult to see how this new offensive role for NATO would be in the interests of European countries or of Canada. Western Europe in particular has everything to fear from a resurgence of the Cold War with Russia, and possibly with China. The transformation of NATO from a North Atlantic defensive military organization into a U.S.-led worldwide offensive military organization is going to have profound international geopolitical consequences around the world, but especially for Europe. Europe has a strong economic attraction for Russia. Then why embark upon the aggressive Bush-Cheney administration's policy of encircling Russia militarily by expanding NAT
48

Rob Bennett,

Point Piper Australia 05/09/2008 04:17:12
And as for Canada, under the neocon minority Harper government, it has sadly become a de facto American colony as far as foreign affairs are concerned, and this, without any serious debate or referendum to that effect within Canada. The last thing Canada needs is to go further on that mined road.
In conclusion, it would seem that the humanist idea of having peace, free trade and international law as the foundations of the world order is being cast aside in favour of a return to great power politics and gunboat diplomacy. This is a 100-year setback. It is a shame.
Rodrigue Tremblay is professor emeritus of economics at the University of Montreal
49

lorad,

Indpls USA 05/09/2008 05:29:55
It looks as though Timoshenko's meeting with Putin a few months ago has borne serpents.. red russian ones.

Itchy is correct.. it is a simple equation..it is a play for power; west vs east.

NATO was established to contain an aggressive russia.
As recent events have proved, this was a wise decision.

And since it comes down to that, I would much rather be on the west's side.. it's in my (and hopefully some of your own) interests.

(unless you're russian, or course)
50

Mashimaro,

China 05/09/2008 05:56:12
#48 etc... hit the nail on the head several times.

#49 Is war in your best interests? Really? I would think bringing Russia into the economic fold would be more in your best interests... but what do I know.
51

Rob Bennett,

Point Piper Australia 05/09/2008 07:18:25
#49 >>>And since it comes down to that, I would much rather be on the west's side.. it's in my (and hopefully some of your own) interests(unless you're russian, or course)<<< OR anyone that isn't American. The stench emanating from America is sickening. God Bless America!!! The US major coporate media are the prostitutes of propaganda.
Despite the undeniable integrity and ethics of many media agents around the world, these people are unquestionably the minority. By the nature of the system the media agent’s role is to perpetuate the “necessary illusions” that nurture ignorance, injustice and war. Nowhere is this more real and dangerous than in America, and indeed it is the American corporate media giants that dominate our global media system. Should the mushroom clouds rise and World War III become a reality we will in great part have those who control these corporate giants, their minions, and our own ignorance to thank. Like perhaps most who enter politics, medicine, and social work in general, media agents start off thinking theirs is a noble profession. They believe the media investigates and exposes the truth, providing the people with important information thereby allowing us to make intelligent informed decisions. In reality they are just as naive as most who read or watch the “news.”
52

Itchy,

05/09/2008 07:56:11
"43 Mashimaro,China 05/09/2008 02:33:43
#37 A "demoractically" elected leader and an erstwhile puppet of the British. That is Mr Mugabe."

A Marxist-Leninist. That is Mr Mugabe.

"#36 The Kulaks, for a large part, brought a lot of the trouble on themselves. If they had done what was expected of them instead of trying to side with their western puppet masters and agent provacteurs, they wouldn't have had so much trouble.
I guess they too had the silly idea that freedom was worth dying for."

And so 10 million deaths written off, just like that. Communists love to kill people and then blame all the failures on someone else.

Kulaks had foreign puppet masters? Oh dear.
53

Itchy,

05/09/2008 07:59:02
#40 the people who died of starvation under the Great Leap forward and the collectivization of the Ukraine wanted food on their plate.

Communism made sure they could not get it and they died.

BTW you are mentally retarded and evil, as is anyone who dismisses millions of deaths.
54

James Donald,

Newbridge 05/09/2008 08:22:39
#42 Mashimaro,Red China - So China can only be run efficiently with education, healthcare, Food and water by the Communists because of "natural disaster"? That's it? That's your argument?
55

James Donald,

Newbridge 05/09/2008 10:01:33
#44 Rob Bennett,Point Piper Australia - "The poll was carried out in all regions of Ukraine, the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, Kyiv, and Sevastopol. On the whole, 1800 people took part in the poll" - in a poll of 1800 from a population of nearly 50 million, I'd say there was some margin for error. Polls can and often have been wrong, disappointing many a middle-class Marxist. Wait for the result before you gloat.
56

Mashimaro,

China 05/09/2008 10:13:30
#54 No, Jimmy. My argument is that Europe is so properous because it has not had to go through the natural disasters faced by Asia. It is also prosperous because it had the vast empires to feed its wealth. Capice?
And yet, take a look at the rest of Asia. Have a look at Africa. I would have to say yes. Communism suits us. Thanks.
57

Mashimaro,

china 05/09/2008 10:15:22
#51 For some reason, the name Rupert Murdoch springs to mind.
58

Mashimaro,

china 05/09/2008 10:17:59
#53 Like you dismiss the deaths of civillians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
59

James Donald,

Newbridge 05/09/2008 10:27:26
#57 Mashimaro,china - Yeah, all journalists are lying scum and should be horse whipped for the good of their soles.
60

Mashimaro,

China 05/09/2008 10:39:29
#I wear Timberland for the good of my soles, Jimmy
61

Rob Bennett,

Point Piper Australia 05/09/2008 11:27:44
>>>all journalists are lying scum and should be horse whipped<<< Well actually most journalists are lying scum, you hit the nail spot on the head. The US system works much differently (than the former Soviet system) and much more effectively. It is a privatized system of propaganda, including the broad participation of the articulate intelligentsia, the educated part of the population. The more articulate the elements of these groups, the ones who have access to the media, including intellectual journals, and who essentially control the educational apparatus, they should properly be referred to as a class of "commissars." That's their essential function: to design, propagate and create a system of doctrines and beliefs which undermine independent thought and prevent understanding and analysis of institutional structures and their functions. That's their social role. I don't mean to say they're conscious of it. In fact they're not. In a really effective system of indoctrination the commissars are quite unaware of it and believe that they themselves are independent, critical minds. If you investigate the actual productions of the media, the journals of opinion, etc., you find exactly that. It's very narrow, very tightly constrained and grotesquely inaccurate account of the world in which we live.
62

James Donald,

Newbridge 05/09/2008 11:29:34
#60 Mashimaro,Red China - As a God-less Communist you have no soul, but as a lying journalist your soles need a good horse whipping.
63

Mashimaro,

China 05/09/2008 12:09:20
Well, the whole point of being a reporter, dudes, is to just give the facts.
It's not to have an opnion about things.
That's what some of us have to come on here and vent our frustrations as the big news corps spew out the government line.
Now, I'm off for a bowl of noodles. Night night.

PS, horse whipping me, Jimmy? You worry me sometimes.
64

James Donald,

Newbridge 05/09/2008 12:36:27
#63 Mashimaro,Red China - "the whole point of being a reporter, dudes, is to just give the facts.
It's not to have an opnion about things" - This would be the minority view.
"horse whipping me, Jimmy? You worry me sometimes" - Not offering to do it myself, old bean, so don't choke on your noodles. Don't eat too much or you will have nightmares of being forced to vote in an election with more than one candidate, reading books that the government hasn't banned and watching the celebrations of Tibetan independence. Whoar ha ha haaaaa...........
65

Rob Bennett,

Point Piper Australia 05/09/2008 13:01:32
The global media propaganda system and “higher learning,” washing brains and making gains. How is it possible that ‘We the People’ have allowed ourselves to become as stupid as we are today?
Let me give just one example of stupid; Today, by consent of our global “leaders,” a nation that totally disregards international opinion, the world’s most arrogant, hypocritical and dangerous nation, the leader in ecological destruction, weapons production and proliferation, violence, and yes terrorism, is the same nation leading us in our global “War on Terror.” Does anyone with half a brain or even an ounce of independent thought actually believe the policies of America are serving to make our world more “peaceful” and “free”? So why is it that the major media and our “leaders” are complicit in this madness? Because our indoctrination, inaction and stupidity allow it, and therein lies the real problem, independent thought, where has it gone and how the hell did we lose it?
66

Mashimaro,

China 05/09/2008 13:51:42
Independent thought? I had one once, but it left.

Jimmy Dee, I love the way you sit there in your lard eating country where water comes out a tap and people are paid just to have babies... and advocate starvation and disease for 1.3 billion people. cos, yeah, you're the man we wanna be listening to
67

James Donald,

Newbridge 05/09/2008 14:20:02
#66 Mashimaro,Red China - Now, now Zippy, coming from a country that eats dead dogs, I don't think you are in a position to criticise the diet of any other country. Similarly, I don't think you are in a position to lecture about people that "are paid just to have babies", living as you do in an over-populated cesspit.
I am not advocating starvation and disease to anyone but do advocate ditching Communist dictatorship. The two things do not go hand in hand.
You stick to slurping your noodles, then off to bo-bos.
68

Rob Bennett,

Point Piper Australia 06/09/2008 03:12:18
Iraqi war criminal Dick Cheney throws a tantrum in Azerbaijan.
Dick Cheney completed his trip to the South Caucasus targeted at strengthening Washington's positions in the struggle for Caspian energy resources. Apparently the talks were a failure. The President of Azerbaijan Ilham Aliyev did not offer to the US guest a warm reception, hinting that Baku was not intending to support the idea of retracting energy carriers' flows to bypass Russia. The high-ranking guest who was visiting Baku for the first time, was not met by either President Ilham Aliyev or even Prime Minister Artur Rasizade. Instead, the Vice President was welcomed by First Deputy Prime Minister Yagub Eyyubov and Foreign Minister Elmar Mamedyarov. What about Ilham Aliyev, he was not in a hurry to receive Mr Cheney. So the latter first headed to a meeting with President of BP Azerbaijan Company and top management of Chevron's Azerbaijan subsidiary, proceeding then to the US embassy to Baku to converse with Ambassador Ann E. Derse. Dick Cheney informed Ilham Aliyev that the USA were going to firmly support their allies in the region and intended to further extend the trans-Caspian gas pipeline circumventing Russia. Ilham Aliyev, however, hinted that despite his high esteem of relations with Washington he was not going to quarrel with Moscow. It essentially meant that in the current situation, Baku decided to wait and see rather than accelerate realizaiton of Nabucco. It seems Dick Cheney was highly irritated with the talks' outcome and refused to attend a ceremonial supper given in his honor. Dick of course could have taken some solace had he known that James Donald would have done the same thing.
69

Rob Bennett,

Point Piper Australia 06/09/2008 08:56:21
Iraqi war criminal Dick Cheney gets yet another kick up the backside. EU foreign ministers signalled yesterday that Ukraine would not be offered the prospect of future membership of the union at a summit meeting next week in France. They also called for an inquiry to be established to find out who was responsible for the start of the devastating conflict in the Georgian region of South Ossetia last month. It's obviously very clear as to who was responsible for starting the war. Saakashvili said during the opening olympic ceremony, "Most decision makers have gone for the holidays," he said in an interview with CNN. "Brilliant moment to attack a small country"
70

James Donald,

Newbridge 06/09/2008 09:06:30
#68 Rob Bennett,Point Piper Australia - "Dick of course could have taken some solace had he known that James Donald would have done the same thing" - Is there nothing better for pampered middle class Communists to do in Point Piper than this childish trolling?
Grow up sonny.

 

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